← Drop Dead Serious With Ashleigh Banfield
Drop Dead Serious With Ashleigh Banfield
Lori Vallow's Prison Interview: What Her Body Language REALLY Says + The Behavior Panel Expert Scott Rouse
01:16:06
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- [00:00]
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- [01:57]
Ashley Banfield
What if you could have a conversation with a serial killer? Actually sit in a room across the table from them and hear them tell the story of who they are, what they did and why they did it? What if you could separate their truths from their lies and actually maybe hear something that they've really never told anybody before? From the team that brought you down the hill, the Delphi Murders comes deviant. It's a show that explores the people who blow through society's boundaries, the people who live beyond the margins. The episodes are released each and every Tuesday and Friday with Friday stories featuring interviews with people who have spent their lives and their careers close to crime. These include former FBI agents, undercover agents, and crime journalists who have covered the most shocking and high profile cases. Deviant is available now. You can follow and listen on Apple, Spotify, Amazon Music or any major streaming platform. Hey everybody. Welcome to Drop Dead Serious. If you are new here, Hello, I am Ashley Banfield. And in this episode we're talking about Lori Valo Daybell. You may know her name, you may know it well, you may know her horrific story. But now there is a brand new chapter that unfolding and trust me, you are going to want to hear this. And I want to take a step back too, because to really understand where Laurie is today, you need to understand where all of this started. Lori Valo is often referred to as the Idaho Doomsday mom who, who once seemed like kind of an ordinary suburban mom until she became entangled in a doomsday cult with her fifth husband, a guy named Chad Daybell. Self proclaimed prophet he was. And together those two spun a real delusion of dark spirits and zombies and apocalyptic prophecies that eventually led to the deaths of not only her own two children, but also Chad's wife at the time, Tammy Daybell. So Chad and Laurie gained international attention back in December of 2019 because that's when a press conference was held. Basically police looking for Lori's two children, 16 year old Ty Lee Ryan and 7 year old Joshua JJ Valo. They had been reported missing by JJ's grandparents. So on January 25, 2020, a court order went out from Madison county prosecutor from that office requiring Lori Valo to produce her missing children in Rexburg, Idaho and to do it within five days. Now if you have kids that should not be difficult to do, you could probably do it in an hour. And Lori did not do that. Lori didn't do it in an hour. Lori didn't do it in five days. And when she failed to comply with that court order and she did not produce those kids, the police moved in and they arrested her. Weirdly though, she was in Kauai in the Hawaiian Islands at that point. She had fled the mainland, she was vacationing there. But they got her and they charged her with child desertion, contempt of court and they extradited her back to Idaho. So the failure to comply with the court order that really became a critical moment in this entire case. Because what it did was it reinforced the belief that Lori knew the whereabouts of her kids and was intentionally obstructing the police trying to find them, the grandparents trying to find them, and the whole investigation. So fast forward a couple months Later, June of 2020, investigators make a horrific discovery. They find the remains of Tylee and jj and they find them buried in Chad Daybell's backyard. Keep in mind Laurie is already in jail at this point, but Chad isn't. Chad was actually arrested the day they found those remains. And both Chad and Lori were charged in connection with the kids deaths. And I should tell you, these were not just murders. These were not just murders. These were calculated, cold blooded eliminations of children. People who stood in the way of Lori and Chad's twisted version of destiny, whatever that religious version was. If you have a weak stomach, if you're sensitive, these details are going to be a little difficult. But Ty Lee, her remains were recovered near a burn pile in a pet cemetery. Yeah, pet cemetery. She had been burned, charred, dismembered. There were sharp force wounds found on the bones. Basically looked as though she'd been killed, dismembered. And they tried to burn any evidence of her, but gave up because a lot of the parts that were in the pet cemetery were actually burned flesh. So. Yeah, found among buried animals. Maybe they decided this was too difficult when it came to jj. They did not dismember him or try to burn him. They just buried him whole. He was found in a makeshift shallow grave nearby and his whole body was wrapped in plastic and bound with duct tape. And he was still in the jammies that he was last seen wearing. After those children's remains were found, Lori's own sister, Summer Schifflin, confronted Laurie in a devastating jailhouse phone call where Summer can be heard crying and screaming at her sister Lori for, quote, dumping the children like trash and burying them like animals. End quote.
- [07:40]
Lori Vallow Daybell
I don't know what anybody knows. I've been in isolation for two weeks, so I don't know anything that's going on. I haven't touched anyone.
- [07:50]
Scott Rouse
Well, they know that.
- [07:51]
Family Member
They found Tyler buried in a pet cemetery and didn't bury a Chad's backyard. And we don't understand how the hell that are gone. We would have taken them. We would have taken care of them. You could have gone home without anything you wanted.
- [08:16]
Lori Vallow Daybell
That's what you think.
- [08:18]
Family Member
I don't know what to think. None of us do. You haven't told us anything. We believed you. We stood up for you. I cannot.
- [08:27]
Scott Rouse
I would Love to.
- [08:28]
Family Member
You cut me and mom off for four months and told everyone not to trust us because we tell Adam, and now we find this out, and you expect me to just keep going on faith when there's been zero explanation, and you expect me to just keep believing without ever having a question?
- [08:48]
Scott Rouse
I'm not saying that.
- [08:50]
Family Member
That is what you're saying. Either explain it, or don't expect me to not be upset and doubt you when the kids are on Chad's property. I'm okay. I love that with all my heart. I would have taken Tyler and JJ in a heartbeat. And everybody else would have, too. You know that if they were in any danger. You're right. Nobody does. Because you said nothing.
- [09:19]
Lori Vallow Daybell
Because every. Because everybody sees what's on tv.
- [09:22]
Family Member
That has nothing to do with tv. This is about your. My conversations before you left and cut me off. And now you expect me to be there for you, and you were gonna abandon me. And if you weren't in jail, you wouldn't even be talking to me, and we wouldn't even know they were dead. Still, you don't think that's going to cause pain throughout our entire family?
- [09:48]
Lori Vallow Daybell
That's never my intent. Well, you don't think I'm in pain?
- [09:52]
Family Member
No, I don't. I think you were dancing on the beach, having a great time, getting married, and you took pictures to prove your kids don't deserve a burial, that you need to get wedding pictures. You don't think that's upsetting?
- [10:11]
Lori Vallow Daybell
Nobody knows. I'm sorry, honey.
- [10:18]
Family Member
Then nobody knows except for you and the Lord.
- [10:22]
Lori Vallow Daybell
Yeah.
- [10:23]
Family Member
Ask him. I have. And guess what? I don't have one scripture that says it's okay for children to be thrown away like garbage in the ground, and that's okay. There is nothing in the scriptures that is godly about hurting a child. Nothing.
- [10:45]
Ashley Banfield
In May of 2023, Lori was convicted of the murders of Tylee and of jj and she was convicted of conspiracy to commit murder against Tammy Daybell. Again, Chad's previous wife, Laurie, received multiple life sentences without the possibility of parole, a fate she earned after months of deception and evasion and also, I gotta say, disturbingly calm appearances in the courtroom. But in true Laurie fashion, she ain't done yet. Laurie's been extradited to Arizona to face yet another murder charge, this time for the death of her fourth husband, the one before Chad Daybell, and his name was Charles Vallow. And if that weren't enough, there is a third murder trial for the attempted murder of Brandon Boudreau. Brandon is the man who was divorcing Laurie's niece. With the trial date in Arizona approaching, Lori Valo decided to break her silence in a jailhouse interview with Dateline NBC. And it was even more bizarre than you could imagine. She completely tried to rewrite history, right, by claiming, astonishingly, that her own daughter Tylee was responsible for the death of her little brother jj. She even suggested that that daughter Tylee took her own life. Let me say that again, Laurie. The woman convicted of murdering her own kids is now blaming her murdered daughter. Lori also says she is 100% certain that she and Chad will be exonerated. You heard that correctly. She believes that she and Chad are getting cleared and getting out. And then she goes even further and actually said that she sees herself on Dancing with the Stars one day once she's free. My friends, I think we can all agree that words, they mean a lot. And Laurie definitely said a lot. But her body language and her tone and her actions may have said even more. So to help me make sense of this jailhouse interview, joining me today is Scott Rouse. Scott is one of the top behavior analysts and body language experts in the world. He holds multiple certificates in advanced interrogation training and has been training alongside the FBI, the Secret Service, the US Military intelligence, and the Department of Defense. He's also one of the hosts of the extremely popular YouTube channel the behavior Panel. Scott, you're like my favorite person on this topic because I, in my gut, I feel like I'm seeing things, but I know that you can actually put like labels and diagnoses to what I'm seeing. Just start with the overall impression. How you see Lori Valo Daybell over the years, compared to maybe how I.
- [13:37]
Scott Rouse
See her, you're seeing. It's almost like a narcissist being unveiled. That sounds weird, but when you get her in a corner and it's one on one like this interview is, then you're seeing the narcissist protect itself. A lot of other personality things going on in there. I'm not going to try to diagnose what the personality type is, but although narcissism is blatant and it's. Everybody can see that. It, it's. I think these kind of interviews are fascinating. The only thing bothers me is we can't, you know, they got her, they've got her cuff, so she can't use her hands as much. So we can't. But that still lets us see when her hands are together, we see her adapting, you know, these little repetitive things we do to Pacify ourselves from stress.
- [14:19]
Ashley Banfield
I'm glad you mentioned that she's cuffed, because I did think that that restrained a lot of language we would have maybe able to perceive had she not been. But she was previously diagnosed, and I'm gonna read it, it was delusional disorder mixed with hyperreligiosity and with grandiose features. This was when she was found incompetent to stand trial back in Idaho. Those are big, deep words. But do they make it. Does that make a difference? When you're looking at her behavior, her body behavior, knowing that she's got this diagnosis in her past, it sort of.
- [14:55]
Scott Rouse
Enhances what you get to see. A lot of times you'll think, oh, it makes it worse. But they're so big in their. No matter what they say in a personality type like this, they, you know, if they're going to say, I went out and walked the dog, it's going to look differently than, than a normal person could say, and I went out and walked the dog, because they're going to add things to it. And so you. What's called a baseline where you see their normal behavior. Once you get that and you see how big they get and those kind of things, once you ask them a question and they start being deceptive about it, all that changes because they go into a different mindset to protect their, to protect the ego and getting in trouble. So it's, it's really, it's, it's really, it's more helpful than it is a hindrance.
- [15:37]
Ashley Banfield
Interesting. She, like, I just still can't get past the fact that, you know, within the last year she's been deemed incompetent to stand trial, and yet she's defending herself. She is acting as her own attorney. Yeah, there's someone sitting beside her. But it just doesn't stand to reason that this is possible. How are you seeing her in terms of the attorney in the courtroom at defense table?
- [16:09]
Scott Rouse
It's, it's, it's exactly what you think it would be. It's not, it's not working. It's not going to work because she doesn't know enough about what's going on in the legal world to defend herself. You know, and if she can't stand trial, then why should she be able. I mean, I understand why she should be able to defend herself. Anybody should be able to, but, I mean, you're, you're dealing with a personality type that is, isn't dealing with reality. So she's not dealing, she's not able to defend Herself in the proper way. That may be a tactic by some lawyer she knows, said, look, go in there and try to, you know, and put out all this information. They can't use it later or something. You never know what.
- [16:45]
Ashley Banfield
Well, you know what? Like, the biggest joke I think about is that you've given up. If you decide to defend yourself, you're giving up your right later on in an appeal to, say, ineffective assistance of counsel. You can't do that. You know, you don't get it both ways. You were given ample opportunity to take the free lawyer that the government will give you. You've been given ample opportunity to switch that lawyer if you don't like that lawyer. And yet, like I personally, just as a layperson, I see this as just like the epitome of a narcissism. I can do better than anyone else I know, more than everyone else. Do you see something more than that?
- [17:23]
Scott Rouse
No, it's pretty much it's a clinical narcissist. That's one of the highest levels you can get. I don't think we're looking at psychopathy here. You know, it's. It's close because there are a lot of things that are similar with psychopathy. With it, obviously, with the things she's done. She feels, for what it looks like to me, no remorse. She doesn't feel bad about doing any of that. You know, still keeps hiding it and laid it on the religious part. But that becomes part. That's part of the, the personality type she has. So that's how she. And it's all about the ego and protecting the ego. And that's what she's doing. That's why her movements are so big. She gets so loud and calls Keith, Keith all the time. You know, it, it's. She's. It's basically just a protection of the ego.
- [18:02]
Ashley Banfield
So, like they're on a, you know, first name basis, which, you know, I guess you are. If he's calling her Laurie, you know, she feels like she. I would still call him Mr. Morrison. I feel he deserves that deference after this many years. Let, let's get right to the clips because this is where I love what you see. And every time I talk to you, you find stuff that I feel but can't put into words. So let's start with this one. This is a clip where Laurie is insisting to Keith Morrison in her jailhouse garb in the sit down jailhouse interview that, that people want to know the truth. And only she has it, right? Like, only she has the truth. And she thinks that everything else that has been reported, including evidence in court, is just straight up narratives. Let's watch together and then I want to ask you about it.
- [18:48]
Scott Rouse
Okay.
- [18:48]
Ashley Banfield
All right, roll it, Lindsay.
- [18:49]
Keith Morrison
Apparently they have to stay on.
- [18:51]
Ashley Banfield
They do.
- [18:52]
Lori Vallow Daybell
I talked with my hands. It's going to be a little difficult. I'm in trial coming up, as you know. Do you know that, Keith?
- [18:58]
Keith Morrison
Oh, I know.
- [18:58]
Lori Vallow Daybell
Are you keeping track?
- [18:59]
Keith Morrison
Oh, yeah, I'm keeping track. So combative is how she was going to be practicing. Perhaps she is representing herself in court now. And she made the decision to meet me for an on camera interview because she had been telling us she wanted to tell the truth.
- [19:17]
Lori Vallow Daybell
It's not fun when so many things are not true.
- [19:20]
Keith Morrison
Ah, well, we'll get to that, won't we? You're the most, most hated mom in America.
- [19:26]
Lori Vallow Daybell
I heard that. And we all know what the media does and they exaggerate everything and they make stuff up and they twist things around. So I don't know how it became what it is today. It's amazing to me and I don't really know and I'm not exposed to what's going on out there.
- [19:41]
Keith Morrison
Are you misunderstood?
- [19:42]
Lori Vallow Daybell
Absolutely. But, yeah.
- [19:46]
Keith Morrison
Misunderstood how? I mean, how do they get your way?
- [19:49]
Lori Vallow Daybell
I mean, how. How do you know a person if you never talk to them in five years? How do you know anything about them? How do you know anything about their life? About what, how it really is? I hear stuff from my family that's like, oh, somebody does a blog about you every day or something. I'm like, how could they do a blog every day? It's been like five years. It's mind blowing. It's mind blowing. A lot happened, Tragedies, tragedies in my life. So the media loves to take tragedies and turn them into crimes, turn them into horrible things. And I had a lot of tragedies in a row, like a domino effect.
- [20:24]
Ashley Banfield
Boy, did she ever. There's so. There's so much there. Just your initial, you know, thoughts on what you just saw.
- [20:33]
Scott Rouse
There's a lot going on there. And we're looking at different sections of time there. So things change in between those. Those times. But when he hits something on her ego, like that one question where she slowed down and sort of balled up a little bit and gets very still. That's when she has inner dialogue going on and she's thinking, structuring her senses and what she's going to say next. So that's the. If it wasn't her talking about her and how, you know, great things were feel something about what happened to somebody or something like that. That's what she sort of shuts down and starts gets in defense mode again defending the.
- [21:07]
Ashley Banfield
She. She was good at keeping her hands still and on her lap. Now again she's got purple handcuffs on. There's not a lot you can do. But at other times she's quite, you know, agile and moves. But is there anything to the fact that she is this self discipline, is she trying to keep it together to look credible or what do of the fact that she just keeps those hands straight down on her lap?
- [21:30]
Scott Rouse
Her life is about keeping it together and looking credible. That's the main thing for a narcissist or personality type like this because they want to look the best they possibly can because they think they are the best that there is. You know, the best person in the room, smartest person in the room. Everybody should like me. So when she slows down and she doesn't move much, that's when something's up. Because every other time she's moving around her shoulders, moving, her head's moving her face, chin's up, her head's back a little bit. But when that thing comes forward, then she gets still comparatively, you know, compared to how she. She is usually that means that would suggest anyway that something's up, that she's, that she's taking in all the information. Watch when she eye locks on him. You know, quite often she, she's talking to him and she'll look around some, but when she looks right at him, that's when something's up. I don't know what it would at this point what it would be because you have to see the line of questioning in there for those things.
- [22:23]
Ashley Banfield
But is that, is that when you lock eyes, is that a dominance effort or is that an effort to prove that I'm telling the truth Because I'm maintaining eye contact with you because is it like I'm trying too hard?
- [22:40]
Scott Rouse
Well, let's take that part about the eye contact and lying or deception. Most people are in the impression when you break eye contact that you're the one that's lying. Something's being deceptive. However, what we know for a fact is that if the person who breaks eye contact is the one who's thinking that's the one you want to believe most. I mean, most of the time. Because the person who locks eyes with you when you, when they're giving you the answer or when they've been put on the spot, you ask Them the question, they keep looking at you. If you think about it, that's kind of weird. If you and I were doing something and you said, did you drop your coffee over there? And I just kept looking and said, well, here's what happened. I didn't quit looking at you. So it's natural to break eye contact. So.
- [23:23]
Ashley Banfield
And it's natural to look away when you're thinking, isn't it? Like, if you have to think about something, I'm doing it right now. For Those watching on YouTube, they can see it. But for anybody listening on the podcast, look, it's unnatural, a conversation you and I are having because we're staring into cameras. But it is natural to look away and think, isn't it? Isn't it unnatural to stare at someone while you're thinking?
- [23:42]
Scott Rouse
Yeah, it really is. Because if you ask them what a big. What? You know, add up these numbers and you know, what's 14 times 8 plus 27 minus 3? And they kept looking at you for the answer. It's odd, but the reason someone who is being deceptive keeps looking at you is because their brain wants to make sure you believe them.
- [23:57]
Ashley Banfield
Okay?
- [23:58]
Scott Rouse
So that's what they're. That's what they're. In other words, their brain is looking for things where you go. You might look like this or almost say something where the person who's just giving you the answer doesn't care. It doesn't matter that much to them because they're just looking around thinking about the answer. That's why we know when someone locks eyes with you when they're. When you're answering that something might be up at that point.
- [24:16]
Ashley Banfield
Boy, I hope we get people who give tons of advice out there to people who now know how to lie better.
- [24:23]
Scott Rouse
The thing is, they can't keep it up. You know, you can do it one or two times, but you can't keep it up in a series of questions.
- [24:29]
Ashley Banfield
That's a good point. It's a natural behavior. You're right. Okay, let me go to the next clip. And it is about Keith Morrison asking Laurie Daybell, Lori Valo, Daybell about meeting Chad Daybell. And so let's roll the clip.
- [24:45]
Keith Morrison
Lindsay, do you remember the first meeting with Chad?
- [24:49]
Lori Vallow Daybell
Absolutely.
- [24:50]
Keith Morrison
What was that like?
- [24:52]
Lori Vallow Daybell
That was amazing.
- [24:53]
Keith Morrison
Tell me about it.
- [24:54]
Lori Vallow Daybell
It was amazing because the veil was once again opened and we remembered each other. I recognized him spiritually.
- [25:05]
Keith Morrison
Recognized.
- [25:05]
Lori Vallow Daybell
He recognized me spiritually. That we had known each other for eternities.
- [25:11]
Keith Morrison
So when Chad came along and, you know, said, you're a goddess, and you've lived for, you know, since the beginning of time.
- [25:17]
Lori Vallow Daybell
And so is he saying that Chad said that? Are you saying that Chad said that?
- [25:21]
Keith Morrison
No, I'm sorry.
- [25:22]
Lori Vallow Daybell
Did you hear Chad?
- [25:22]
Keith Morrison
I'm just trying to remember.
- [25:23]
Lori Vallow Daybell
I've heard a lot of stuff, Keith, that I'm here to say. You've heard a lot of stuff? What I'm. What I tell you will be the truth.
- [25:30]
Ashley Banfield
Wow. Okay, first off, let's. Let's talk about her belligerence in a moment. But first off, she's talking about the amazing meeting of married Chad Daybell. Right. They're both married. Lori's married to Charles, and Chad is married to Tammy. And it looks to me as the layperson, like she is enthralled with this man. And she believes everything that she's saying to Chad. Like this doesn't look like she's trying to lie. She's literally now all into her own business and believes that everything that happened in her life was all virtuous.
- [26:06]
Scott Rouse
Yeah. If you'll. If you'll listen to how high she was talking, the pitch, the tone of her voice at the beginning of that, she's talking about how wonderful things are. Then listen to how far down it goes, how low it goes. Her tone gets when she starts talking about the other things, when it follows that, that's always interesting, too, because what.
- [26:22]
Ashley Banfield
Does that mean, going starting high and ending low?
- [26:25]
Scott Rouse
Well, she's. She's selling something at that point. Oh, it was so wonderful. He had the best time and all that. But you know what he told me he said, and so it's kind of like that. So the voice gets lower as you get more into the series. Let me tell you something. And she's using what is called her teaching face, or we refer to as a teaching face, where she's telling you the way things are and what happened. So that's why she's always on point. When he starts to talk, she starts talking over him because she. She wants to make sure she gets his picture clear to anyone else listening. Her. Her point. There's no logic in this at all. For on her side of it, as she's answering, as she's listening to the question and answering them. There's no logic to it. It's just she's given her answer. I don't know. I don't know if I'm explaining that very well.
- [27:04]
Ashley Banfield
Yeah, well, I can, like, I can tell that she' and that, you know, just the discussion of Chad lights her up. Okay, so you had an affair with A married man. You cheated and you found someone else you liked better. But it was so sinister. Like, everything about their relationship was all based on sinister evil. Like, these people are in our way, therefore they are zombies and have to die. And yet she doesn't seem to be incorporating that part of their relationship into this excited part of meeting some guy she liked.
- [27:37]
Scott Rouse
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I don't know what to add to that. It's just. That's the way it is.
- [27:42]
Ashley Banfield
Does that sort of comport with what you see in how she answers Keith, her excitement about him? Like, is that I. I'm saying what I'm seeing in evidence. And I, of course, I haven't either. Spent five years with Laurie, and here I am talking about Laurie. She makes a very good point. I have to add that how can you possibly talk so much about someone if you've never even met them and never had a conversation yourself? I get that. So I'm just going off evidence, but that seems to be the story that I've. I've come up with. And I'm just wondering if it looks to you by how she's talking, like, to be true.
- [28:15]
Scott Rouse
It's a great defense to come out and say that, because what do you know about me? You don't know anything about me. That kind of thing. And she may be the, you know, she may be the nicest person when you hang around her, you know, because that's, again, part of that personality type. They can do all these nice things, but then do these horrific things somewhere else. So what we're seeing completely makes sense. I mean, I don't have any problems at all under seeing what's happening, understanding the personality type and that she was able to do those kind of things that she's been, you know, she got trouble for and be so bubbly and nice and all that. It's really not a. That's the way those are. That's the way they are.
- [28:54]
Ashley Banfield
And I like that you said that. Her. Her belligerence when she's over talking. Keith, in the second part of that clip we just saw, is her demanding that her narrative gets out, which I will give her in her defense. If I were an inmate, and let's just say I were wrongfully accused, I might be that way, too. I might want. Someone needs to hear me now. I need to get my story out because I don't feel like my story came out at trial. And again, that's just looking at both sides of the coin.
- [29:22]
Scott Rouse
Yeah, but the thing is, you wouldn't calm down as quickly as she does. You know, when you go in an interrogation, if I'm talking, somebody's done something, I know they've done it. And we're just having to have them say that they did it. And, or if there's a situation, you come in and you're not sure, you can come in and say, I got to tell you, I got to ask you this real quick because you've taken a 10 minute break during a long run stuff, you come and you say, listen, they know you did this. There's no question about you, that you did this at all. There's a lot of things going on here you're not aware of yet. I'll be able, hopefully be able to tell you in a little while. So you did this and there's no doubt about, and that's why I'm here to talk to you about that. And if they say, well, you know, I didn't do it, I'll tell you right now, I don't care what they say. And like that, that's one thing. But they say, wait a minute, man, stop me halfway through that long little sentence I went through. Now that's different. They get all mad and then. But the thing is, anybody can do that. But they're hard to calm down because. And it'll hit them again that they're in trouble for something they didn't do and they'll bring it up again and get all fired up and angry and hollering trying to make their point to you, because you're the one doing that, not talking about everybody else. But yeah, but I didn't do this. They think, whatever, that's, that's a real important thing there because being able to keep up that anger and that, that the stress from all that and then it pops back in their brain and they'll come at you again while you're just talking in the middle of anything, you know. But the person who did it, most likely, usually, not always, you can't save 100 every time. They'll just listen to it for a minute and they'll just gather all that information and they'll keep looking at you like we talked about earlier, because they want to make sure, their brain wants to make sure they get all the information they possibly can for their defense against this situation. So the person who didn't do it is going to be really mad. She calms down fairly quickly and she didn't really get that mad. She just starts talking loud.
- [31:14]
Ashley Banfield
You're saying the calmness is her returning to the methodical thinker who did it and needs to make sure she keeps her, you know, her shit together. It's fascinating.
- [31:23]
Scott Rouse
Nailed it.
- [31:24]
Ashley Banfield
Let's watch this next clip. And I have to give some information beforehand because it's a bit weird. You hear another name being thrown in the mix. You hear the name Ned Schneider being thrown into the mix. For those who don't remember, long ago when this story began, like a half a decade ago, there was the fourth husband, Charles Vallow, who died and died by gunshot. And it was ruled self defense by Laurie's brother. Laurie's brother shot him dead. And the police there sort of wrote it off and said self defense. And now they. Now they think otherwise. And she's going to trial for being a part of that murder conspiracy of Charles Valo. But her fourth husband she deemed a dark spirit. She said Charles Vallow had become a man named Ned Schneider. And the reason Lori thought that was because Chad Daybell told her so. With that as a backdrop. Lindsay, can you roll that clip? She's lost her mind. Out of the house to say it. We're lds.
- [32:22]
Scott Rouse
She thinks she's a resurrected being and a God. She said, you're not Charles. I don't know who you are, what you did with Charles, but I can murder you now.
- [32:30]
Lori Vallow Daybell
Are you saying he became Ned Schneider?
- [32:32]
Keith Morrison
Well, that's what he told the police, that you told him he was somebody named Ned Schneider.
- [32:36]
Family Member
He told that to the police.
- [32:38]
Keith Morrison
I have a video on it.
- [32:38]
Lori Vallow Daybell
Did you hear it?
- [32:39]
Keith Morrison
Yes. Yes, he's on tape saying that to the police. He was terrified that you were going to kill him.
- [32:45]
Lori Vallow Daybell
Really, Keith? Is that where you're going to go with this?
- [32:47]
Keith Morrison
Well, that's what we're here to talk about.
- [32:52]
Ashley Banfield
So I'm not sure how much Laurie knows about her trial transcript from Idaho, but there is irrefutable proof that Lori and Chad called Charles Vallow Ned Schneider and considered him a dark spirit. I'll give you some. Some examples here. Laurie texted her brother Alex, quote, apparently it is tied to Ned being gone. Kiss emoji, hopefully today or tomorrow. And then there's, of course, just, you know, our lion eyes are telling us right there on a body cam what Charles Vallow is telling the police out of fear that, you know, his wife is acting dangerously. But. But Laurie's response is so weird. Really, Keith, are we going there?
- [33:38]
Scott Rouse
Yeah. It's defensive. I mean, what else is she going to say? She can't say he didn't say it or I didn't say it or they didn't say it because they have all that stuff. Maybe she does know that. She's just trying to block that, that line of questioning. That's a, that's a common tactic of fur. And I'm not being mean. I'm just saying people who aren't really smart, that's quite often. That's the tactic they'll take. Is that when the childish approach to that, because it sounds like a little kid he's talking to as she's doing that maybe, you know, seven, eight years old, that's the way they argue.
- [34:06]
Ashley Banfield
That's what they do. I thought exactly the same thing. I actually was going to go a little older, but about like 11 or 12 year old, you know, preteen girl who is angry with her mom like that. That was the argument, the style of argument I saw there. That doesn't work in a courtroom and certainly jurors can't be swayed by that.
- [34:26]
Scott Rouse
No. And. Or him. He can't be. He can't be either. You know, but I think he's doing a great job of it. His stress level seems fairly low. I always like to watch the, the person doing the interview as well. Like when you, you did your. The last interview you did with someone who did something we're supposed to do, then I like to see if they're stressed, see how that's going. He's handling it pretty well. He's getting a little bit stressed, but he hasn't. She doesn't have him thinking on his feet and trying to figure out what's happening next or anything like that.
- [34:52]
Ashley Banfield
Yeah, Keith Morrison is pretty much the coolest cucumber they grow. But I was fascinated by that too. In fact, in the next series of clips, we are going to ask both you and our audience to just keep an eye on Keith as much as they're watching Laurie. Because I felt for him. This is a guy who always knows his stuff. He knows this trial better than anybody. But I think he's just got this howitzer coming at him that he might not have expected. And I don't think I expected this either. Did you expect from the Lori that you've come to know, the Lori that we saw in these clips?
- [35:26]
Scott Rouse
Yes, yes. Because I understand that personality type. So that they'll defend the ego to the wall. They'll do anything she had to start. I'm surprised she didn't start crying and get up and want to leave and all that once you get them back into a certain position. But the fight before that is incredible that they'll that they'll put up. But then when they can't win, then they'll break down and they'll, they'll separate themselves from the situation by crying. You can't get to them, you know, by talking to him and that, that. I don't think that happens here. But I was surprised because he can really go pretty hard on somebody. You know, he's, he's pretty good at that.
- [36:05]
Ashley Banfield
Methodically and gently without, without appearing aggressive. He can really corner you and he does it really well. And he cornered her, which gave us the, you know, 11 year old girl fighting with her mom.
- [36:17]
Scott Rouse
And he comes in with an air about him is the thing, and starts out well, you know, he starts that slow talking and looking at you, you know, looking through your soul. So. And he's pretty good at it, you know, he's done it for a long time. And she's not buying it, she's not getting into it, you know.
- [36:31]
Ashley Banfield
Yeah, she's very dismissive. Change her, by the way. Very rude. That's my perception. Should I have had a different reaction? Is it rude to you? Is it as simple as just she's rude?
- [36:43]
Scott Rouse
Oh, it's. Well, it's all she'll do whatever it takes. Again, I hate to keep going back to it to protect her ego or the ego at that point, because nothing can. And that's how that guy got control over in the first place. The religious guy that she, that she met up with. That's the way you do it, Stroke your ego. Oh, big time. Yeah. Once you spot that personality type, man, you can fish him on in and get him to do almost anything. You can really get the high end clinical narcissist if you know how to do it. And you brush the ego certain ways, you can get them to do just about anything that you want them to.
- [37:14]
Ashley Banfield
Love bomb. Just do the love bombing. Which is what most cult leaders do, right. They love bomb their members as they're bringing them in and then slowly start dropping away. All the love. And so those members are kind of desperate to return to where it used to be.
- [37:29]
Scott Rouse
Yeah. And you drop off these little bread crumbs of oxytocin that fires off in their brain by just saying one thing to them. Because at one point you're just totally given all of it. They're just like, yeah, here's you're the greatest thing in the world. Then one day it just stops and they're like, wait a minute, I thought I was the greatest person in the world. I don't. You know what's going on. I don't understand what's happening. And then every now and then, they'll drop off little breadcrumb. They run over there and get it. Get that oxytocin buzz. Okay, I'm back. Everything's great. And then he does that to a lot of people and you. Then you've got followers. In a nutshell, that's the way it's done.
- [38:00]
Ashley Banfield
Okay, this next clip is Lori discussing her relationship with Jesus. And you know, spoiler alert, it is not like the rest of our relationship with Jesus. It's a whole other level. She's also talking about life after death. And the best part, she discusses her relationship with the woman that she's been convicted of murdering. And that would be Chad Daybell's late wife. So let's. Let's roll it.
- [38:25]
Keith Morrison
Lindsay, does Jesus visit you often here?
- [38:28]
Lori Vallow Daybell
Jesus visits all of us. He's a very good friend of mine. He loves everybody. I'm just his favorite.
- [38:34]
Keith Morrison
You're his favorite?
- [38:35]
Lori Vallow Daybell
No, I'm just. That's a joke. Can I joke with you, Keith? Can we joke?
- [38:39]
Keith Morrison
Yes, yes, of course.
- [38:40]
Lori Vallow Daybell
That's my bumper sticker. I said if I ever had a bumper sticker, it would say Jesus loves you, but I'm his favorite. Everyone has a time when they live, and everyone has a time when they're going to go back to home, to heaven. So it's kind of the idea of like, you go off to college, learn a bunch of things, have experiences. That's what life is. And then you go home.
- [38:59]
Keith Morrison
No foul play at all, she said. Perfectly innocent.
- [39:04]
Lori Vallow Daybell
Tammy died of natural causes. Tammy knows the truth. I love her and she loves me. We've been friends for eternities.
- [39:12]
Keith Morrison
Yes. And nowadays Tammy comes to visit her in jail, said Laurie.
- [39:17]
Ashley Banfield
Okay, let's start with the last part. She loves Tammy and Tammy loves her. All present tense. And that Tammy and Laurie were the best of pals. First of all, that's absolutely impossible because they didn't even live in the same place. And she seems, like so incredibly convinced. What did you see when she was saying that?
- [39:39]
Scott Rouse
Well, let's look at her body language. Let's see what she's doing. Her leg is crossed over, looking completely different set of cues at this point than we've seen that we've seen up to this point because she's shut down a little bit. Her leg is crossed. Her hands are way down as well. And then listen to her voice and look how far down her head as it comes up. Some, but not a whole lot. So She's. She's giving all these things that. All these big things are blanket statements about how they're great friends, they have been for, you know, what eternities and all that kind of. When you look at it from one point of view, you say, well, we're looking at schizophrenia, except for the little things she throws in there where, you see it's a religious thing, not a schizophrenia schizophrenic. I could be wrong, though. I don't know. Maybe she is schizophrenic as well. The only part of that I see is. Was in right there. But, I mean, there's. There's so much going on with her from a psychological perspective, I'll say.
- [40:34]
Ashley Banfield
But is she. Does she believe that. That she and Tammy are friends? Does she. Does it look like she believes that, you know, Tammy loves her and that she loves Tammy, or does it look like she's just trying to lay it on thick?
- [40:46]
Scott Rouse
Well, obviously, we know that can't be true, that. That the girl's still coming to visit her and all that stuff. So I got. I'm under the impression she's laying it on a little too thick, and that's one of the ways she. She distances everybody from her, because you're talking against her religion and those kind of things. She's mixing, you know, Christianity with whatever it is she's doing. She's talking about Jesus. She's talking about, you know, you know, Jesus loves you, but. But I'm his favorite. Shoot. That's been around forever. I say that sometimes on our podcast. I'll say that because some people. When people start bringing up religion and you throw that in there to make yourself look smart, but she doesn't understand what that actually means. That. That he loves everybody. Everybody's his favorite. She doesn't get that part of it, which lets us know she's. She's not really. You know, I wouldn't be under the impression she's a true Christian.
- [41:34]
Ashley Banfield
Okay. I. I got a different impression off the top of that sound bite. And I'll tell you, and you tell me if I'm way off based on what you saw. I saw that she was trying to be funny and adorable and have Keith really like her because she's so clever with her jokes and funny. And I felt like she was trying to put herself on an even plane with everybody else, including Keith's friends and colleagues, as opposed to, I am a lowly inmate, a convict, having killed my two children and my fifth husband's wife. I. I feel like she's trying to raise herself above that and be on a one to one joking level with Keith.
- [42:15]
Scott Rouse
Yeah, but she's, she's not raising yourself that she's already there. She wants you to believe that too though. She's trying to convince you what a wonderful person she is. But she's trying to connect with them so they can be friends, so she can have. It's easier to, to defend that. And he won't come as, at me as hardcore. That's the, the logic behind that. So that's, that's normal for that personality type as well. Trying to be friends with everybody. And I'm sure in the prison, I don't think they'll, you know, you'd think, I bet she gets along great in there. I don't, I wouldn't think there'd be a whole lot of people that like that because they understand the thing about people in prisons. They see a lot more than, than, than the, than a civilian would on the street because they see people at their worst and they see the worst people at their worst. And they know when somebody's up to something and that behavior is not normal and they see it instantly.
- [43:06]
Ashley Banfield
It was uncomfortable. First of all, again, I put Keith on a level up here and I look at him as sort of the, the granddaddy of not just crime reporting, but reporting and of NBC, you know, royalty. And he deserves deference. He doesn't deserve to have you laughing and joking along as though he's in on all your, your jokes. And it just made me feel uncomfortable. You know, I noticed a lot that, that Lori tilts her head a lot way off to the side. What is that?
- [43:33]
Scott Rouse
Well, she's showing her neck and that's the way she's trying to, to ingratiate herself, trying to become attractive for him. So again, she can connect. That's very common because she's trying. And listen to how she's talking, what she's saying. She's being all sweet and bubbly and, and childlike. She, she's under the impression that she's still like street hot. You know, she go out and get any guy I want, you know, so when she does that, that's what, that's what that's about. She's trying to be, to be attractive to them. And that's one of the ways a child will do it. That's one of the ways that someone, other women will do that. You know, it's common. They go a little bit and it's normal. But when you do that hard Tilt like that, you're going for it.
- [44:10]
Ashley Banfield
She's, she's completely unaware that she's wearing jailhouse orange purple cuffs and Crocs.
- [44:16]
Scott Rouse
Exactly. Exactly.
- [44:19]
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- [46:16]
Ashley Banfield
Let me play this next one. Speaking of uncomfortable because Keith asks Laurie about meeting Chad Daybell because they met when Chad was married to Tammy and they only married like 17 days after Tammy died. So you do the math and it's pretty obvious what happened, but he asks her very specifically about that. And she invokes Adele, the, you know, pop queen of pop, singing in her answer. And again, it's cringe worthy, but let's look at it. Roll it.
- [46:50]
Keith Morrison
Lindsay, what was the relationship with Chad all about anyway?
- [46:53]
Lori Vallow Daybell
My husband.
- [46:55]
Keith Morrison
Your?
- [46:55]
Lori Vallow Daybell
Yeah, my husband that I've been married to for five years.
- [46:58]
Scott Rouse
Sure.
- [46:58]
Keith Morrison
And everybody calls you Lori Valo. Does that bother you?
- [47:01]
Lori Vallow Daybell
It doesn't bother me, but I'm Lori Daybell.
- [47:04]
Keith Morrison
It was often difficult to keep Laurie on point, but on this subject, the wedding and preparations for it, she seemed willing to talk specifics. We had to ask because again, facts. The evidence clearly shows that Laurie searched for wedding dresses and rings and then bought a malachite gemstone ring on October 2, 2019. The ring was delivered to her five days later, October 7. But there was a hitch. At the time, Chad's wife, Tammy, was as alive as a person can be and quite unaware of the fate that awaited her. She was murdered on October 19, two weeks after Laurie's wedding ring was delivered. In journalistic terms, this would be called a gotcha. And you bought the wedding rings?
- [47:56]
Lori Vallow Daybell
That is an untrue statement. You don't know what you're talking about on that one.
- [48:01]
Keith Morrison
It's online. The purchase is there, and then we see the video of those very rings on your fingers and that ceremony.
- [48:07]
Lori Vallow Daybell
Those rings were not initially bought for us. So get your facts straight, Keith, before you start making accusations. See, you don't know who were they bought for? I don't have any idea. Because you've heard all these rumors.
- [48:19]
Keith Morrison
You're going to tell me who they were bought for.
- [48:21]
Lori Vallow Daybell
Rumor has it.
- [48:22]
Keith Morrison
Who were they bought for if not you?
- [48:24]
Lori Vallow Daybell
Alex and Zulema initially, that's Laurie's brother.
- [48:28]
Keith Morrison
Alex Cox, and the woman he would later marry.
- [48:31]
Ashley Banfield
I'm here to tell you the truth.
- [48:33]
Family Member
And you don't even want to hear it.
- [48:34]
Keith Morrison
Of course I want to hear it.
- [48:35]
Lori Vallow Daybell
I don't think you do.
- [48:36]
Keith Morrison
But I want to hear the truth about all kinds of things.
- [48:39]
Lori Vallow Daybell
I'm trying to give you the truth and you really don't want to hear it. So you want the truth? You want the truth that you already think you know. I'm the person it happened with. I'm the only one who knows the truth and I'm trying to give it. But if you don't want to hear it, I will be happy to be quiet.
- [48:56]
Ashley Banfield
So poor Keith is basically desperate to have her answer his questions. She won't answer his questions, but continues to accuse him of not wanting to listen to her answers. Is that. Do I have it in a nutshell?
- [49:09]
Scott Rouse
Yeah, that's. Yeah, it's where. Where can she go? What can she do? That's all, that's all you have at that point. There's in. In situations when you're asking people questions like that and they. And. And there is nowhere else to go, but you feel like you have to have an answer. There it is. She could have answered with something small and short and. And to the point him said, no, that. That's not it. And he could have said, you know, well, yeah, it is. We have it online. I don't know what that is. You could go down that thing. So seriously, I have north idea what that is. And shut up. It doesn't get as bad, but you just keep digging this hole. But then again, it's like listening to a younger person argue, who doesn't know how to argue. Just getting loud. Another thing that was interesting is. And the very first part of that interaction there, watch how when she's supposed to be saying yes and no, she has what we call the bobblehead. You have illustrators where you're in confirmation nods. If I were to say, no, I'm not going, that means, no, I'm not going. But if I said, no, I'm not going, and my head kept doing that.
- [50:11]
Ashley Banfield
So for the listeners, you're nodding your head up and down, right? When you say no, I'm not going by nodding your head up and down.
- [50:19]
Scott Rouse
Right. But I'm nodding them when I say no, when I hit no, my head is all the way down. So every word is emphasized because it's the way your brain emphasizes specific words and phrases. It's an illustrator, and we saw her head doing the bobblehead thing, going back and forth and up and down. Watch for those little hints of that because that lets you know she's. At the same time, she's delivering the no, it isn't answer. She's thinking she's got inner dialogue going on that's going against that as she's trying to figure out what's happening. That's one of the ways you catch someone in a lie. When you start breaking the lie down, you get them into that mode. And once they're there, if you know how to do it, you go in and start asking other questions. The whole thing falls apart. He's really close there, you know, and she can say, well, I'm not talking to you anymore. That's her thread. I'm just gonna leave.
- [51:05]
Ashley Banfield
It's amazing just to think that you Know, they punctuate with their chin going down if they are ending a very, you know, fulsome argument or they're making their point. But you're right, she's bouncing all around and it makes perfect sense that she's trying to figure out how to, you know, how to fill in the gaps as the story continues out of her mouth. And by the way, that's the other thing off the top of that clip. She sort of was offended by Keith's simple question, tell me about your relationship with Chad. And she's offended by it saying, you mean my husband of years. Well, it wasn't even years, but I guess it has been. They are still married. But it was just almost like she put up a defense to a question that didn't require one.
- [51:51]
Scott Rouse
Because the wall has to go up because it's harder to get through that wall to get to other questions. She knows with that question there's a whole lot more coming. So you put the wall up and it makes it hard to get through. You can't get any further than that. So that's common as well. So I think he did a great job with it for what he's got to work with, you know, in that situation. But there's really not much you can do when you're dealing with that personality type because there's no logic there. It's just protection. That's really tough, certain things.
- [52:20]
Ashley Banfield
But else throughout these clips and as we continue, we can, we can look and see it. She keeps looking off camera as though there's someone else there who she's sharing, you know, the joke with, as though Keith doesn't understand the joke. But whoever off camera is, they and I, well, we are in on the trail. Truth. You're the one who's out of sorts. Does that make sense? I mean, I just, I don't think there was anybody there. I didn't see them in the wide shot anyway. But tell me what your thoughts were about that.
- [52:51]
Scott Rouse
That's. You look for approval at that point is what's happening there. She look for somebody to be going, you know, oh, yeah, you're right, girl, you know, you, whatever. And she's not. And you know, probably nobody's there, but you're looking for that. You're doing an approval check is what it's called. We'll do threat checks. If we're, if we, if we're in a situation where we think something, someone might hurt us or someone we're not aware of yet, we'll look around kind of a little Bit our eyes will dart as we check for threats. So she's checking for approval to make sure. And plus, it puts. It makes him feel weird. You know, the goal is to make them feel weird. Like, look, we all think this too. So. Which I don't think they. I think there's. That's not going to happen in that situation. Yeah, it's real.
- [53:29]
Ashley Banfield
Real palpable. Once you seize on it, you can't stop looking at. Who exactly are you looking at, Lori? And who in a prison environment is your friend and believes your story? It's almost like it's a phantom, you know, fake person that she's looking towards, maybe beyond Keith's, you know, his aperture. I don't know. But my Lord, I just kept realizing there's just no. There's no end to her physicality in how she lies.
- [54:00]
Scott Rouse
Yeah, that's. That's the way they are. Like I said before, out of the gate, it's just the thing, you know, your wall comes up and you just start protecting the ego. So she'll do anything, no matter how small or how large. And she has to. You have to make that assessment once you get in there. That's why she opens up with such a big, hey, look at me. Everything's going great. And her voice is high and all that because you're trying to connect with that person to build rapport and be friends with them. Whereas he does a great job because his never really changes much at all. He'll go up a little bit and he'll come a little bit lower and go a little bit stronger when he says. But I just saw that. Which everybody does. You look online, there it is. That's the only time his voice really gets a little stronger or his tone changes in the least is during that.
- [54:40]
Ashley Banfield
Yeah. So I think her histrionics are. You know, they're all over the place during this interview. You know, she's. She's offended. She's wants to be adorable all at the same time. And. And then the Adele moment. I mean, you know, just hearing that Adele imitation, did that tell you anything or was it just a throwaway?
- [55:00]
Scott Rouse
No, that's. That's part of that. Of the defense. Everything you do. The thing that's great about this is we're seeing everything here. You usually don't see this many. This many of these. These cues and things and these approaches at protection in one shot. I mean, rarely do you see all these in one interview. You'll see a couple of them, but seeing them all bunched together like this, just one after the other after the other after the other. That's what's fascinating me about this, that I know other people that, you know, my buddies are like, dude, have you seen this?
- [55:29]
Lori Vallow Daybell
Really?
- [55:29]
Scott Rouse
You know, I hadn't seen it yet. Yeah. And they're like, no, you got to see it. She's doing it all, so.
- [55:34]
Ashley Banfield
And it's like a body language buffet.
- [55:36]
Scott Rouse
Yeah, yeah. And she's for. For the approach she's taken. She's pulling out all the stops. It's almost like an example of how it's done where you'd stick a bunch of clips of different people together. It's all one person doing everything. She's one stop shop.
- [55:51]
Ashley Banfield
And what's with Lori closing her eyes so much and for so long?
- [55:56]
Scott Rouse
Okay. We're looking at two different situations. In situations where something is bothering her or he's giving it. He's asking a question she's not into or refuting what she said. It's called eye blocking, and everybody does it. If you, if, if. If you tell a joke where you are at work and some guy comes in, starts telling a really graphic joke and there's women around, you'll see guys close their eyes or cover their eyes, that kind of thing. So it's eye blocking at its basic level. And then you have the part where she. When she does it, she closes her eyes but then bats her eyes. And that goes back to the part where she's leaning her head, lean sideways, and she's trying to seem attractive to him. So there's. Those are two very common things. You see, you got to keep an eye out for when you're interrogating somebody.
- [56:44]
Ashley Banfield
What does eye blocking tell you, though, about. If she's talking and she's closing her eyes, what is it telling you about what she thinks of her story?
- [56:52]
Scott Rouse
And every person will be different because some people do it naturally. They'll. They'll look at, you know, their eyes closed, and they'll look away with their eyes open. They'll look at you and talk with their eyes closed. That's one thing. But if you've been acting. If your behavior has been where your eyes are open the whole time, and then you start saying something like that. It may be something that you're afraid of the. Of the blowback from what they're going to say, or you may not. What you're saying, you know, may be offensive and you'd really don't want to say it, but you're saying it anyway. In her case, though, I think she's hearing things or covering things she's. She doesn't agree with or that offend her.
- [57:26]
Ashley Banfield
Okay. Would she be one of your teaching examples?
- [57:30]
Scott Rouse
Yeah. This will be, after all, as I'm saying this, that's why I'm having inner dialogue thinking, oh, I got to pull this and. And show it this specific.
- [57:38]
Ashley Banfield
I noticed you looking away.
- [57:39]
Scott Rouse
Yeah, I'm thinking about that. So, yeah.
- [57:44]
Ashley Banfield
Okay. So this next clip, I love this because Keith is asking about her parenting style, which shouldn't even be called parenting. She acknowledges the deaths of her kids and she repeats this story, weird story that just came out of the ether, that she had a near death experience while giving birth to Tylee. By the way, as we watch this, just know nobody else knows anything about this. None of her friends ever said, yeah, she had a near death experience giving birth. Yeah, she was in the hospital. Her whole family. No, nobody has any information about a near death experience giving birth to Tyler. But you know what? This is Lori's story. So let's. Let's roll it. Lindsay.
- [58:24]
Lori Vallow Daybell
I never spank my children. I don't yell at my children. I only use love and logic with. With my children. Right. I want to build them up. I want to help them because of what I learned in heaven. Tyler's very smart, very sassy. She knows how to push your buttons. She knows what to say.
- [58:39]
Keith Morrison
Gotcha.
- [58:40]
Lori Vallow Daybell
I was able to be very peaceful with Tyler. I was able to be patient with Tyler because I watched her suffer so much. Okay. And I knew she was not going to live forever because you know that you can die of pancreatitis anytime you have it.
- [58:54]
Keith Morrison
Of course.
- [58:55]
Lori Vallow Daybell
Yes, she has.
- [58:56]
Keith Morrison
He claimed that giving birth to Tylee actually killed her briefly, sent them both straight to heaven before Jesus asked her to return to life on earth.
- [59:07]
Lori Vallow Daybell
When I saw Tyler in heaven before she was born, she knew she was going to come have all these difficult things, and she was still giddy with excitement about coming to earth and fulfilling her mission.
- [59:21]
Keith Morrison
Meanwhile, Lori dodged questions about the wreckage in her own life. We have Tyler.
- [59:26]
Scott Rouse
Yes.
- [59:27]
Lori Vallow Daybell
Jj. Yes.
- [59:28]
Keith Morrison
We have Chad's wife. We have the attempted murder on Brandon. We have. You know, there's a lot of my life.
- [59:36]
Lori Vallow Daybell
There's a lot to my life. If you want to hear the actual explanations, I'm here. There's a big line like, you really want a lot of that.
- [59:42]
Keith Morrison
I do, I do, I do.
- [59:43]
Lori Vallow Daybell
But I just.
- [59:44]
Keith Morrison
I don't have all week to hear all these explanations.
- [59:47]
Lori Vallow Daybell
Well, it's going to take a long time, so it's probably Going to take.
- [59:49]
Keith Morrison
More than one session that the sheriff's office told us was not a possibility.
- [59:56]
Ashley Banfield
There she is again, arguing. You don't want to hear. When all Keith is begging for, you know, is to hear. I was interested, Scott, at the beginning. She talks about her kids in present tense.
- [60:08]
Scott Rouse
Oh, yeah. Well, because she's already stated that they're all, you know, in other words, they're still alive but not on earth and all that. You know, she's got. She's got to maintain that thing where there's another place where we all still are. And so, you know, her version of heaven, you know, whatever that is and how we're all still alive and it'll come back to we're all one and all that. But you're right, usually when or quite often, someone will talk about somebody that they've killed and they'll talk about in the past tense. Even though the body hadn't been found yet, they're pretending like they don't know.
- [60:41]
Ashley Banfield
Yeah. That's usually one of the first clues as they talk about past tense. Which made me wonder once again, is she. So I want to say incompetent. That she does not understand what is going on. She truly thinks these kids are alive because she's not even trying to lie when she's talking in present tense. It's coming out organically.
- [61:03]
Scott Rouse
Yeah. I think she knows they're dead. I think she knows they're not coming back. I think she knows you're never going to see him again because she did that to them. Them. You know, she could say, all you want to say about, now they've got heaven. That's, you know, once you die, if you're. If you're a Christian, under the impression that there is something like that. But I don't think the person that made that happen for somebody else is going to be too. Well, you know, they may have a tough time getting in there and hanging out with everybody once, you know.
- [61:30]
Ashley Banfield
You just made me think. You make a really good point. When we talk about people in heaven, we say, he is in heaven, meaning present tense. We talk about people in present tense. If that's how you refer to someone who's in the afterlife. You use present tense, don't you?
- [61:47]
Scott Rouse
I do. If I'm talking about my father with my family. If I'm talking about it with somebody else, I don't, you know, so. But it depends on the situation. I don't walk around the house saying, you know, you know, dad likes the coffee I'm having. He Likes that, too. Not that kind of thing, but, you know, I don't know how to explain it, but. But as you're saying that I'm. Yeah, I remember the couple times I've been in that position said, yeah, you know, put him in the present tense.
- [62:11]
Ashley Banfield
Yeah, no, that makes perfect sense. If you're talking with others, you face reality, and then when you're talking with your family, you refer to. Dad's watching over us right now. He would be laughing. He. Look, he. I'm sure he's laughing or he's rolling in his grave. It's all. Yeah, I hadn't thought of that. So this next clip is Lori being asked about Chad labeling her own children dark, as in zombies, you know, and he really puts it to her, did. Did she watch her children die? But watch the answers and how she dances through and overspeaks him. And I want to ask you about that. Let's roll it.
- [62:47]
Lori Vallow Daybell
Lindsay, you want to go on later and say Lori told me this in your ominous voice, but really, this is what happened. Are you going to do that to Miku?
- [62:56]
Keith Morrison
Ominous voice? Yeah, maybe that one.
- [63:00]
Lori Vallow Daybell
Yes, that's the exact voice that I'm talking about.
- [63:06]
Keith Morrison
Why did Chad label your children dark? And then, you know, that is all. Call them zombies. You're saying that didn't happen?
- [63:13]
Lori Vallow Daybell
Did you hear him say that?
- [63:15]
Keith Morrison
Well, no, but others did.
- [63:16]
Lori Vallow Daybell
I didn't.
- [63:17]
Keith Morrison
Oh, I see. I see. But that would be a pattern, that he would label people dark and then they would either die or somebody would have an attempt on their life.
- [63:28]
Lori Vallow Daybell
No, that's the. That's the narrative that you've been running.
- [63:32]
Keith Morrison
The evidence show that Tyler was killed the night they returned from Yellowstone, September 8, 2019, and JJ was killed 14 days later.
- [63:44]
Lori Vallow Daybell
No, that's not accurate. Sorry. It's not the truth. You asked me for the truth. You're asking me personally, the only person on the earth who really knows, and you're shaking your head no, like that didn't happen.
- [63:58]
Keith Morrison
Did I shake my head?
- [63:59]
Lori Vallow Daybell
Yeah, you're shaking your head a little bit.
- [64:01]
Keith Morrison
No, I'm just looking at you. I'm quoting what the court said about you and Chad, that you go ahead and quote it actually conspired to kill these people.
- [64:12]
Lori Vallow Daybell
And were you there when I was falsely accused? I was falsely.
- [64:17]
Keith Morrison
Let me ask you.
- [64:18]
Lori Vallow Daybell
Directed, and I will be exonerated.
- [64:21]
Keith Morrison
All right, fine. Were you there the night that Tyler died? Were you there the night that J.J. died? Was I, Alex, in these places? When they died, in the place where they died, were you there?
- [64:34]
Lori Vallow Daybell
What place was that?
- [64:35]
Scott Rouse
Did you watch?
- [64:36]
Lori Vallow Daybell
What place was that? Do you have any idea?
- [64:38]
Keith Morrison
I'm asking.
- [64:38]
Lori Vallow Daybell
Well, I'm the one that knows. Do you know? You're pretending like you know it doesn't matter.
- [64:42]
Keith Morrison
I'm not pretending. I know. I'm asking you a question. Did you watch your children die?
- [64:49]
Lori Vallow Daybell
That's a really sad question.
- [64:51]
Keith Morrison
It's a terrible question, and it's one I hate to have to ask, but, I mean, we've been talking about all.
- [64:57]
Lori Vallow Daybell
I was not there, as you know. I told Colby.
- [65:01]
Keith Morrison
You did not kill a soul.
- [65:02]
Lori Vallow Daybell
Absolutely not.
- [65:03]
Keith Morrison
You didn't participate in killing a soul. You didn't conspire to kill a soul.
- [65:07]
Lori Vallow Daybell
Correct.
- [65:07]
Keith Morrison
You didn't do any of those things you've been convicted of doing.
- [65:10]
Lori Vallow Daybell
Correct.
- [65:11]
Keith Morrison
What to make of Laurie?
- [65:15]
Ashley Banfield
My next question would have been, okay, Lori, you're telling me you didn't see them die? You're telling me you weren't there when either of them died. But at the beginning of this clip, you just said my facts were wrong, that they died on this specific date and that specific date. And Lori was so adamant. Nope, that is not true. You don't even know. You're just following the narrative. And then she goes on to admit, well, I don't think it's an admission, but she goes on to say, I wasn't there to see it all. So it's just completely contradictory.
- [65:49]
Keith Morrison
Yeah.
- [65:49]
Scott Rouse
And he does a fan. If you watch him there, where he is quiet and she gets after him for shaking his head, that's hard to do. When you ask someone a question, they start in and you see something go wrong. It's hard to be quiet, man. It's so tough. Sometimes he does a really good job of keeping quiet, letting her talk. So I think that that's. That was fairly impressive, I thought there. Because you can look at it and go, oh, okay, yeah, he just wouldn't. But it really is tough not to jump in and go, hey, man, what about this? And he's not doing that. Which I thought was pretty potent, but.
- [66:22]
Ashley Banfield
The level of her obfuscation is just, like, stratospheric.
- [66:28]
Scott Rouse
Well, there's. There's so many things going on in here. It's. It's really fantastic. There's one part where when. Once he asks her if. If she. If she's the one that killed the kid or the children, then you hear what's called fading facts, where she. As she's talking, she gets quieter toward the end because your brain is saying, man, you shouldn't be saying this. This is.
- [66:46]
Ashley Banfield
Right?
- [66:46]
Scott Rouse
This is.
- [66:47]
Ashley Banfield
Is that what that means? Like, she regrets the minute she starts opening her mouth? Is that what you say when you say fading?
- [66:53]
Scott Rouse
Fading facts? She doesn't regret it. She just knows she shouldn't be doing it, but it's got to be done. So when she's. It's like. It's like punching your husband or your kid or your mother. Say punching your mother really be hard to do. You just barely hit her. Same kind of thing. You. You know, if you're going to. You know, for losses, you have to punch your mother, then you're going to go up and just barely tap her. That's what's happening as she's saying that she doesn't want to say it, but she's got to say it. And so as she's talking, it gets quieter at the end. Quieter.
- [67:20]
Ashley Banfield
Fading facts. Is that what you call it?
- [67:21]
Scott Rouse
Fading facts? Yeah.
- [67:22]
Ashley Banfield
It's fascinating. By the way, just so everyone knows, as she's, you know, refuting everything, there are actual emails between her and Chad labeling JJ and Tylee as dark spirits. You know, so when she demands, you know, you don't know that. You don't know that they found the emails between them. So for sure, Chad did say it, and she was the recipient of that information. Okay, so this next clip. This one's probably one of my favorites, apart from the fact that that last clip, you saw her again looking off camera so often to this imaginary friend, this imaginary ally, you know, as though she had a teammate that was supporting her. It was nutty. But this last clip is one of my favorites because she tells Keith that she and Chad, who's on death row, are going to be exonerated and freed and that she has big, big plans for what she's gonna do when she walks out of prison one day. So let's roll it.
- [68:21]
Keith Morrison
Lindsay, what's it like acting as your own lawyer?
- [68:25]
Lori Vallow Daybell
It's great, actually.
- [68:29]
Scott Rouse
I.
- [68:29]
Lori Vallow Daybell
It's a difficult thing to do. You have to have your arguments. You know, I think this judge in particular has been pretty patient in letting people get their whole argument out.
- [68:37]
Keith Morrison
I can see where he might need to be.
- [68:40]
Lori Vallow Daybell
Yeah.
- [68:41]
Keith Morrison
Chad was convicted, and he's on death row now.
- [68:44]
Lori Vallow Daybell
I. I understand that.
- [68:45]
Scott Rouse
Yeah.
- [68:46]
Keith Morrison
They have some fascinating stories, possibly think that Chad would be exonerated after what happened.
- [68:51]
Lori Vallow Daybell
The same way I will be exonerated. We will both be exonerated in the future because I have seen things in the future that Jesus showed me when I was in heaven and we were not in jail and we were not in prison, and they were still in the future from now.
- [69:07]
Keith Morrison
Very good at dancing.
- [69:08]
Lori Vallow Daybell
And we should. We should do a little jig.
- [69:10]
Keith Morrison
You've already done a mental jig with your stories.
- [69:15]
Lori Vallow Daybell
After I get exonerated, maybe I'll go on Dancing with the Stars and you can come.
- [69:19]
Keith Morrison
Sure. Okay, fine.
- [69:20]
Ashley Banfield
Okay.
- [69:21]
Keith Morrison
And then.
- [69:23]
Scott Rouse
All right.
- [69:23]
Lori Vallow Daybell
I guess our time is up.
- [69:24]
Keith Morrison
Apparently it's up. Yep.
- [69:26]
Ashley Banfield
Half the time I'm laughing over here because she doesn't get the joke, like, so often, Keith. Like, I'm doing a mental jig and she doesn't seem to get the joke that the joke's on her.
- [69:37]
Keith Morrison
Yeah.
- [69:37]
Scott Rouse
Yeah. That's too bad. And the. The mixing again. I don't think Jesus is known for showing you the future. If, you know, if he shows up, it's a pretty big deal. You know, he usually sends some, you know, somebody else to have a talk with you.
- [69:49]
Ashley Banfield
Yeah.
- [69:50]
Scott Rouse
Before, like an archangel. Somebody's gonna show up. Yeah. So. And those. You know, so that's. I don't know. It's just. I don't want to get into the religious mixture of all that. But.
- [70:02]
Ashley Banfield
But I mean, what's interesting about it is that for those who are listening and watching, who are religious, I think that they are taking deep offense to this because she's twisted, you know, their beauty to fit her murderous actions and to, you know, try to dominate a guy who's calling her out for it.
- [70:21]
Scott Rouse
Yeah. Yeah. And I think if. Now this is going to sound horrible, this is the way I would talk about hanging out with my friends. If he was going to. If Jesus was going to show up, he would either show up now or he during this, or he would send somebody to show up, and that who he would send would not be this kind. Everybody's under the impression that angels are these kind, precious things that show up. Think about the first. When they first show up, what are the first few words that they say every time? Four words.
- [70:50]
Ashley Banfield
What is it?
- [70:51]
Scott Rouse
Do not be afraid. Because they're gangsters, man. They show up, you know, it's. It's pretty hard.
- [70:57]
Ashley Banfield
I thought they said, do not be afraid because it's so unusual and people can't believe what they're seeing, and their first inclination would be, what is this? I'm terrified.
- [71:05]
Scott Rouse
Well, if he could. If he can send one of those to two, you know, defeat an army of 185,000 soldiers in a night, then they got to be gangsters. I mean, they got to be. What do you first see? It's like, oh, My God. I'm sure there are different kinds of different types, but the ones that go out in the field that you call up go, hey, will you take care of this for me? You got it. I'm going. And they go down and do that. That's why they always. That's why they say that when they show up every time.
- [71:27]
Ashley Banfield
She's got the blind faith. She's got the blind faith that they'll protect her and no one else. Right. Because she's his favorite. Remember, She's Jesus's favorite. What about just her? What about just her. Her. Her demeanor in talking about, I will be exonerated, I'll be freed. It felt to me like she wasn't trying to put one over on Keith. It felt to me like she really believes this.
- [71:47]
Scott Rouse
Oh, well, then again, there you deal with that. That personality type, you know, the histrionic personality type, and it started to sound a little schizophrenic. You know, there's so. But there's. There's so much going on in there. It's easier to go, man, she's crazy. But there's so many things going on in there. I'm sure the people who did the diagnostic on her were just like. I'm sure they were calling each other afterwards and going, you got to check this out. I've got one.
- [72:14]
Ashley Banfield
Or, I need a cigarette. I need a smoke break.
- [72:18]
Scott Rouse
Right. Not that this is new. There are a lot of people like this. But when you see that in person and you actually. It's hard not to get offended and be defensive against them. That's what she's used to, is people button, you know, button heads with her. Because when you meet a person at that level of that personality type, you usually don't get along with them, even though at first you may, because you say, oh, they're really nice. But then after a while, it goes away.
- [72:43]
Ashley Banfield
And they play you. In the beginning, they play you. They love bum you too, you know?
- [72:47]
Scott Rouse
Yeah.
- [72:48]
Ashley Banfield
So can I just ask you, in your line of work, like, put Lori Valo on a scale of 1 to 10, and I know we instantly want to go 10, but my question is more about. With the. The number of issues that present in how she speaks. I mean, we all have little tells or little lies, and lots of murderers will show something in their. Their conversations. But with what you see from her, the number of sheer, you know, tells that. That she gives you, with all the different science that you study, where does she fit on that scale?
- [73:21]
Scott Rouse
Well, let me say this about that we could take this almost sentence by sentence and break this down and go, oh, each one of those sections, we've looked at three or four in one. We could take four and take the first half of that one, then take the second half and we could spend weeks doing this because there's so much happening there. Because from a neurological perspective, you can see when things fire off in her head and things happen. Like, for example, when she's doing the one shoulder shrug and her chin goes toward it, we know she's being. That usually suggests that the person is being dishonest there. They're being deceptive. When she has the fading facts, these things are happening just bang, bang, bang, bang. And we could break all those down section by section. So it's one of those things where she's a good study. The study of her quote, unquote will be around for a long time. She'll be Internet famous for a long time because she'll be one of the classics that everybody goes back to and looks at. You know, mark my words, kids going.
- [74:17]
Ashley Banfield
Into criminal justice are going to be seeing this in their classes in the future, if not now.
- [74:21]
Scott Rouse
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they'll be. And people are into true crime and all that. They'll be looking at this as well. She's going to be one of the, the all stars of this. A lot of people call her a psychopath. Like I said, I've never talked to her. I don't know if she is or not, you know, but she has a whole lot of the traits of a psychopath. If you were to go down the hair psychopathy checklist, boy, she sure checks a bunch of them off. So she's, she's, you know, that's questionable. It could take a year to diagnose someone as a psychopath, you know, but, boy, she's getting close.
- [74:55]
Ashley Banfield
Scott, you are amazing. Thank you so much for this. I have so much more insight and I feel like my gut was on point when I watched that interview.
- [75:03]
Scott Rouse
You want me to tell you why?
- [75:05]
Ashley Banfield
Yeah, why it is.
- [75:06]
Scott Rouse
Okay, well, and take this the right way. It's because you're a woman. Men's brains and women. And women's brains are different. Men's brains take in information, all the superficial stuff really quickly. We make the decision and we have what's called our gut feeling. That's why we think we know everything, because it comes to us so quickly. And women, what they do is their brain is set up differently and takes information in, in these big chunks, huge chunks. Right. And there's a part of the brain called the fusiform gyrus. And it collects all the little things it sees when someone's moving. Not just people, but other movements, situations, those kind of things. So it takes in these big chunks of information from the fusiform gyres. Then you have the mid temporal gyres. That's right along in here. That takes into consideration it grabs all the big stuff that all the big movements and things people say, then throws it back, this thing in the back of your head called the locus coeruleus down there at the base of the brain. And the locus coeruleus gets all that information and starts sorting through it. As it's sorting through it, it takes a while. For men, doesn't take long at all. Like I said, we know everything and this is why. And we have a gut feeling. But this, the locus coeruleus, the way siever it goes through the information, sieves through it all. That's what gives you all. And I say you all because women have women's intuition. That's why it's so potent. It's the most famous superpower. Yeah. That's why you see things before we do. And I'll tell you, I've never done an interrogator or, you know, done an interview and interrogation where that person was gonna go away forever. And without having a woman watch that as well, not telling her, hey, watch this. Make sure I just say, will you sort of keep an eye on this and just see what's going on here? You know, I said, yeah, okay. And then I go in the exceptions.
- [76:48]
Ashley Banfield
That's amazing.
- [76:49]
Scott Rouse
Yeah. What are you seeing anything I'm not seeing? Here's what I think. Here's why I think. And you can get a lot from that sounds crazy, but women can spot that stuff. That's why so many women are into true crime, because they see this stuff and men are like, yeah, I see what you say. But you all can see it much better and much more quickly and much more in detail, in depth than we can. Sorry about the rant.
- [77:09]
Ashley Banfield
And that is why I'm so thrilled that you as a man and I as a woman am having this conversation because I think it really filled in a lot of gaps. Thank you so much for this.
- [77:18]
Scott Rouse
Well, thanks for having me. I really appreciate it. Thank you.
- [77:23]
Ashley Banfield
I have to say that whenever I do an interview with Scott, and I do interview him a lot on my News Nation show at 10pm Eastern. Check it out. I always learn so much more than I already felt I knew, but he puts, like, a science to it, which makes me feel better about my sneaking suspicions or my women's intuition. I don't know if you got the same feeling as I did, but if you were listening to this as a podcast, I highly recommend you check it out on YouTube because Scott did a lot of things, like he was acting out a lot of the actions of Lori. And I think you like, like Scott's business is watching people, right? So I think if you watch our interview, you may get a lot more out of it as well. So just check it out on YouTube. Drop dead serious. Easy to find. And you can see all of our episodes on YouTube as well. Full video, pictures, all sorts of great stuff. I just, I'm so thankful that you're, you're part of this community. I think that oftentimes a headline is just not enough, right? Not only is it not enough, it's not always that informative. And I think that, you know, talking through some of these stories that as they develop, we actually come up with new theories, new concepts and new understanding. Which is why I think this kind of a platform is so important. Please do me a favor and subscribe. I love it. I love hearing that you are part of this community permanently. I like hearing what you have to say. So leave your comments and your suggestions too. Tell me what you like, what you didn't like, and what you want me to look at, what other cases you want me to look at as well. I'm always happy to do that. And when you subscribe, you also get the notific notifications because I just drop little Easter eggs all the time. We do some new episodes and little bonus episodes and content all the time. So if you're a subscriber, you're going to get a notification that doesn't always happen just on the Thursday mornings when we drop every week. And also, you know, give me the review. Like I said, even if it's bad, I do like to hear what you have to say for the YouTube viewers. I would love to hear your comments in the comment section. Without question. I read them. We take into account what you say. We are a true crime community and everybody has a good point to make. So I do love that. I always love when you follow me on social media as well. I'm on all of them. Instagram, YouTube, X, Facebook. You can find me there at Drop Dead Serious. You can also find me at Ashley Banfield and at tvashley. Love, love, love hearing what you have to say in those comments. And we do put some additional content out on social media as well. So thank you again for being a part of this. We'll see you again in a week. Until that time, my friends, please remember that the truth is not just serious, it is drop dead serious.