Mackenzie Shirilla’s Mom Defends Daughter After “Remorseless” Netflix Interview

Summary

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Drop Dead Serious With Ashleigh Banfield

Episode: Mackenzie Shirilla’s Mom Defends Daughter After “Remorseless” Netflix Interview
Date: June 26, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode, veteran crime journalist Ashleigh Banfield dives deep into the case of Mackenzie Shirilla, a young woman convicted of murder after intentionally crashing her car and killing her boyfriend and a friend. The case gained renewed attention following a high-profile Netflix documentary, particularly due to Mackenzie’s prison interview, which many viewers found deeply unsettling. Ashleigh dissects the case, the public's reaction, and the role of family in the aftermath, bringing in former colleague and legal analyst Chris Cuomo. Together, they analyze legal missteps, true crime culture, and the controversy surrounding Mackenzie’s parents, who continue to defend her publicly.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Netflix Effect and Remorseless Perception

Ashleigh opens by sharing her reaction to the Netflix documentary on the Shirilla case, underlining how Mackenzie’s on-camera demeanor—polished appearance, apparent lack of remorse—has driven public ire.

• Quote:
  “It is rare that you see an inmate, a female inmate, fully made up with a beehive bun. And so incredibly...remorseless...Did I do what I needed to do? Say what I needed to say. Those are my words. But effectively, that's kind of how her interview ended, right?”
  — Ashleigh Banfield [01:06]

• Ashleigh points out the contradiction of Mackenzie professing remorse, while her off-camera behavior seems calculated and performative.

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2. Shirilla Family’s Defense & Public Backlash

Cuomo’s exclusive interviews with Mackenzie’s parents, Natalie and Steve, reveal a family determined to plead their daughter’s innocence—often to the exclusion of victim empathy.

• Quote:
  “Mackenzie's parents have really taken it on the chin for being kind of, you know, tone deaf...There are parents out there who no longer have their kids—not just kids in jail. Right. They don't have kids.”
  — Ashleigh Banfield [03:53]

  • Clips from Cuomo’s interviews illustrate the family's steadfast belief Mackenzie is misunderstood by the media and public.

Defense of Relationship with Victims

• Mackenzie’s parents and a close friend insist her relationship with the boyfriend (Dom) was not toxic as prosecution claimed—despite “volatile” text message evidence.
• Quote:
  “What they look like on paper, it's not who they were. They were very close. They loved each other fiercely... He cared about her health, and he was trying to work on her. She has POTS.”
  — Mackenzie Shirilla’s Friend [06:37]

Addressing Prison Rumors and Conduct

• The family downplays reports of misconduct in prison, explaining ‘contraband’ violations as harmless (extra blankets or alarm clocks) and offering no comment on “sex tickets.”
• Quote:
  “She’s not doing any of those crazy things people are saying. So what she's doing is she lays in her bed a lot. She colors, she draws, she paints things for people and their children. She’s like super, super talented.”
  — Mackenzie Shirilla’s Friend [09:13]

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3. Chris Cuomo’s Legal & Ethical Analysis

Questioning the Motive

• Cuomo, a lawyer as well as journalist, disputes the prosecution’s theory that Mackenzie intended a murder-suicide, pointing out that there is no evidence of her being suicidal.
• Quote:
  “You have to believe she was suicidal. I do not believe she was Suicidal. I do not believe she is suicidal. So if she's not suicidal...how did she intend to kill herself and them?”
  — Chris Cuomo [18:25]

Critiquing the Defense Strategy

• Cuomo believes Mackenzie’s bench trial was a major misstep by defense counsel; they underestimated the evidence and didn't effectively present mitigating factors like potential diminished capacity or medical issues (e.g., POTS diagnosis).
• Quote:
  “They absolutely have medical records and testimony of her having this very remote medical condition called POTS...I still would have argued the hell out of it because...it was not created for trial, Ashley. And I didn't know that from reading the trial record. And that is bad practice.”
  — Chris Cuomo [48:16]

The Role of Public Perception

• Both Cuomo and Banfield agree that Mackenzie’s presentation—both in and out of court—made sympathy nearly impossible. Her social media and prison interview reinforced negative perceptions.
• Quote:
  “Just somebody who, a few months after this horrendous thing happened, dresses up as a corpse for Halloween. I don't think you have any shot at getting any sympathy from anyone.”
  — Ashleigh Banfield [25:03]

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4. The Broader True Crime Phenomenon

Why We Watch and Take Sides

• The hosts discuss the unifying yet divisive nature of true crime, noting how even clear-cut cases spawn fringe communities supporting the accused (e.g., “Free Mackenzie,” “Pro-Kohberger” groups).

• Quote:
  “There is a cottage industry of clickbait...The algorithms reward you for it. We have a real breakdown of trust. Everybody believes everything's a conspiracy...We magnify minority voices in a way we didn't used to.”
  — Chris Cuomo [40:22]

The Limits of Justice and Objective Truth

• Both reflect on the difference between getting the "justice" you want and due process—urging listeners to recognize that justice is the legal process, not always a personally satisfying verdict.
• Quote:
  “He once told me something that really stuck with me...People will come out of a courtroom and say, I didn't get justice. And it's wrong to say that because you got justice. It just wasn't the result you wanted.”
  — Ashleigh Banfield [36:35]

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5. Legal Nuances and Lessons

The Bench Trial Mistake

• Cuomo explains that choosing a bench trial was likely poor advice from the defense, given the "slam dunk" forensic data.

• Quote:
  “That's a fundamental misunderstanding of what a judge absolutely saw right away. There is no evidence that she did anything but accelerate.”
  — Chris Cuomo [23:04]

Attempts at Appeal

• Family and supporters pursue appeals based on claims of ineffective counsel and new text message evidence, but Cuomo is certain they face impossible odds.
• Quote:
  “Do you think they have a shot? — No.”
  — Banfield & Cuomo [31:28–33:29]

Objectivity and Transparency in Journalism

• The pair agree that transparency about personal opinions is more realistic and ethical than pretending complete objectivity in true crime coverage.
• Quote:
  “The standard is not objectivity. It's fairness.”
  — Chris Cuomo [44:33]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Terrible. 10% ignorance, 90% arrogance. Horrible. Just horrible.”
  — Chris Cuomo on Mackenzie’s Netflix interview [28:48]

• “If I were her parent, I'd try to get her out, too—I get that. But they're never going to win an appeal and they don't create sympathy.”
  — Ashleigh Banfield [21:28]

• “Those are not fully formed human beings. They are, they are not to be trusted and taken seriously with any—"
  — Chris Cuomo on teenagers and impulsivity [45:33]

• "Her lawyer did not effectively argue what really may have changed this case, which is...diminished capacity.”
  — Chris Cuomo [48:16]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:06] — Ashleigh’s reaction to Mackenzie’s Netflix interview and case recap
• [03:53] — Public backlash against Mackenzie’s parents and introduction of interview clips
• [06:37–09:13] — Mackenzie’s friend (through Cuomo’s interview) on her character, relationships, and prison rumors
• [14:27–14:56] — Mackenzie’s father rejects any suicide or intentional homicide motive
• [17:41] — Ashleigh interviews Chris Cuomo about the case
• [18:25–20:13] — Cuomo questions the prosecution's theory of motive and critiques legal strategy
• [23:04–25:42] — Flawed defense decisions, bench trial, and how evidence was mishandled
• [28:48] — Reaction to Netflix interview: Cuomo calls Mackenzie’s on-camera approach “fucking horrible”
• [31:28–33:29] — Odds and legal discussion regarding appeal—no chance of overturning conviction
• [36:35] — Reflections on justice as process, not personal satisfaction
• [40:09] — Discussion of fringe supporters, internet misinformation, and clickbait culture
• [48:16] — Legal critique: missed opportunities in medical defense and impact of poor trial lawyering

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Concluding Thoughts

This episode of Drop Dead Serious provides not only a breakdown of the Mackenzie Shirilla case and its legal intricacies, but also a meditation on how high-profile true crime cases ignite public emotion, misinformation, and polarized debate. Banfield and Cuomo stress the importance of due process, fairness, and the complexities of both legal strategy and media storytelling—while remaining unsparing in their assessment of the defense’s failures and the lack of genuine remorse shown by Shirilla. Whether you’re new to the case or familiar with its details, the conversation offers both legal insight and cultural commentary, capturing the unsettling fascination—and frustration—of the true crime genre.

Transcript

[Lowe's Announcer]

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[Luigi Mangione]

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[Mackenzie Shurilla's Friend]

Foreign.

[Ashley Banfield]

I'm Ashley Banfield, and this is drop dead Serious. So Mackenzie Scorilla is making headlines again. If you saw the Crash on Netflix, you probably couldn't take your eyes off it. I was just mesmerized by that documentary. Mostly because of her interview from prison. It is rare that you see an inmate, a female inmate, fully made up with a beehive bun. And so incredibly, what's the word I'm looking for? Remorseless. Like, I know she said she has lots of remorse, lots and lots of remorse. But when you have to ask someone off camera, did I do what I needed to do? Say what I needed to say. Those are my words. But effectively, that's kind of how her interview ended, right? Then you sort of know what the premise was all along. I need to sell a story. Did I do it anyway? Mackenzie Shurilla, if you don't know, is a young woman who, at 17, drove her car into a brick wall at 100 miles an hour and killed two people in her car. One was her boyfriend and one was her friend. And she opted for a bench trial when she was charged. And by the way, she was charged with. Let me read the list. Murder two counts. Right, sorry. Four counts of murder, two counts of aggravated vehicular homicide, one count of felonious assault, drug possession and possessing criminal tools. It's a lot of really bad charges, but she. She opted to be tried by the bench. It's called a bench trial. She opted to be tried by a judge and not a jury of her peers. You have the choice. It's your constitutional right to be tried by a jury of your peers. But if you don't think your peers are going to like you, you might just want to really, really finagle the law and go right for the jud. And that's what they decided to do. It didn't go well. She lost, and she's serving 15 to life, and she is still trying to profess her innocence, and so are her parents. In this episode, I am going to interview Chris Cuomo, which is fun because he's a former colleague of mine. We work together at cnn. We work together at abc. We work together at News Nation. Chris is a lawyer. He is an incredible litigator. He's a very good interviewer. He's got a brand new true crime podcast called Cuomo Crime Time. And as part of this big new launch into this, you know, true crime space, he's done a really good interview with Mackenzie Shurilla's parents. I think a lot of you have have felt very strongly about how the parents have defended Mackenzie and to the point where they have almost forgotten about the two victims in this case who died. There are parents out there who no longer have their kids.

[Lowe's Announcer]

Right?

[Ashley Banfield]

Not just kids in jail. Right. They don't have kids. And so Mackenzie's parents have really taken it on the chin for being kind of, you know, tone deaf. Their names are Natalie and Steve Shurilla. And I want to play for you some of the interviews that Chris Cuomo has conducted with Natalie, but also with Steve. And he did this over the course of a few days. But it's just sort of interesting to hear their take again, given all the facts that have come out in the case. I don't have to relitigate the case for you. I think you already know it, by the way. If you haven't seen it, you've got to watch the Netflix story called the Crash. But here are some of the really interesting moments from Chris Cuomo's conversation with the Shurillas.

[Luigi Mangione]

What do people have? Look, I know this is hard for you, and I know you keep catching yourself talking about her in the past tense, and that. That triggers this paroxysm of pain for you because your daughter's not dead. But the life she had is no more. And I get how hard that is for you, and I. I sympathize with you on that, and I understand it.

[Mackenzie Shurilla's Friend]

Well. Part of me is not crying just because of that, okay? A part of me is just crying because she. Her. Her friends, people that actually know who we are, know the truth. They know who she is. And the. The image that has been painted of her through storytelling, all these other things, it's just. It's not. It's not. So. It's not wholly accurate. It's. It's Unfortunate.

[Luigi Mangione]

So part of that is the relationship with Dom. How did you see that? How did you see what are seen as radical ups and downs?

[Mackenzie Shurilla's Friend]

Oh, this is gonna, like, super make me cry. But one of my favorite things to do with Mackenzie and Dom was talk to them about them, their relationship. We spent a lot of time together, doing everything. We went on vacation together. We, like, where there was one, the other was there too. So, you know, they were together for four years, and they were together the four years in a real pivotal time of their age where they were trying to figure life out and who they were. And actually, I'm going to show you a text message that I sent to Dom. We were very, very, very close. And one of my favorite things to do was help them navigate through their relationship.

[Luigi Mangione]

Did you believe at the time that the vagaries of their relationship, the drama was within the realm of normal, or did you see it as a toxic relationship?

[Mackenzie Shurilla's Friend]

No, I didn't see it as a toxic relationship because we did spend so much time together. Every single day, he was either sleeping here, she was sleeping there. He would come over and make dinner. They made homemade pasta and steaks. So there was none of that. Like, I knew that she was going to be. That he was going to take care of her, like, keep her safe, and, like, he was very protective of her. And then I also knew that she was protecting him. So in person, I don't think. I know it sounds toxic in the text messages, but there's no context for those. That's not who they were. And one of the things I always tell people is who Dom looks like on paper. Is that who he was to me? So what they look like on paper, it's not who they were. It's just not who they were. They were very close. They loved each other fiercely. They were very cute together. They took care of each other. They wore matching outfits. They timed their day around each other. They made sure that they had each other's food. He care about her health, and he was trying to work on her. She has pots. So he was trying to figure out her. Her pods and her diet and stuff. So they were very cute together. There's no context in those text messages. That was just them trying to figure out how to work through these situations that they had building up. But that's not who they were. I know it's what it looks like, but that's not who they were.

[Luigi Mangione]

The next point of perspective is what people have seen on social media after the event and even after your daughter's incarceration and it is an extension of this wild child, very self indulgent, maybe, you know, taking girlfriends or lovers in prison. It's all about feeding a picture of her as just all about her appetites. And again, extreme. How can you. How can you help people understand differently?

[Mackenzie Shurilla's Friend]

I can't, because anybody can say anything they want. Like, how can you stop people from

[Luigi Mangione]

saying things, you know, with different. With different perspective and analysis? Like, yeah, she smoked weed, but, you know, not every day. And she still went to school. And she said she doesn't have girlfriends. She doesn't have girlfriends in prison. She's not fighting people in prison. She didn't stab someone in prison. You know, I mean, that's how.

[Mackenzie Shurilla's Friend]

Yeah, well, that is how. So I don't. I can't speak on any of her activity in prison. She's not doing any of those crazy things people are saying. So what she's doing is she lays in her bed a lot. She colors, she draws, she paints things for people, for people and their children. She's like super, super talented. She listens to music, she writes music, she journals a lot. She likes to watch movies and play board games. You know, she doesn't like drama, so she tries to avoid that. And if there is, then she's always the first one to extend the olive branch to whoever it is to move on from there, because she likes to bring people together.

[Luigi Mangione]

How do you explain what is reported as an unusual amount of misconduct? Tickets for violating prison rules.

[Mackenzie Shurilla's Friend]

Thank you for that. So contraband isn't like drugs. It just means that you have something that's not on your vault list. So let's say you have, I don't know, five. Five things with you when they go and do, like, their searches or something, then that's five tickets. Five separate tickets. Because you have somebody, you know, she. Like, for instance, she had to go to work in the morning, and she didn't want to miss going to work, so she used her friend's alarm clock, wasn't on her vault list, so that would be considered contraband. So that's one. Then if you have somebody's pillow or like an extra blanket, that's two. That's two tickets. So that's three right there. Just in the same situation. So. And then the other one. So that's contraband. It doesn't mean drugs. It just means you have something that doesn't belong to. It could be food, could be literally anything. But. And then if you have multiple things, each individual item is one thing. So that could. That could Add up. And then the other one would be like the misuse of medication. She thought, you know, she was worried about her health. So she just wanted to take. It was a prenatal vitamin. Cuz she just wanted to make sure that she was getting. She must not have felt good and wanted to make sure she was getting enough of the nutrients. So she took a, somebody's prenatal vitamin.

[Luigi Mangione]

But were some of the tickets as reported for sexually explicit video calls with an ex inmate?

[Mackenzie Shurilla's Friend]

Well, that I can't speak on. You know, all I can say to that is she is in her early 20s. I can't, I don't, I don't know anything more about that or. The only thing I can say is now that you know what the rules are, gotta follow the rules. That's the other thing I always tell my kids. Like no matter where you go in life, everybody has a different set of rules you have to follow. I have rules at our house, you have rules at your house. They have different rules. Like wherever you go, those are the rules you have to follow. And sometimes, unfortunately, we don't know what the rules are until we do. And then when you do, then follow them.

[Luigi Mangione]

Something you can speak to directly is when people hear you have explanations for innocent kinds of tickets, but you say you know nothing about the kind of ticket that would inform people about the nature of her personality, it becomes suspicious of your credibility. You understand that?

[Mackenzie Shurilla's Friend]

Yes. No, this. Well, I can't talk on the sex ticket thing. I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm sure we've all had spicy conversations with our friends and, and people, so I can't really speak to that. What I can speak on is that none of her tickets are aggressive or violent. You know, she's got extra stuff that doesn't belong to her, like food, pillows, blankets, alarm clocks. You can get a sex ticket, by the way, just for hugging. Hugging somebody else. Which is unfortunate because those girls are going through all terrible times and you know, if you want to hug your. I don't know. But

[Luigi Mangione]

people point to, oh yeah, she loved Dom so much that she got a girlfriend as soon as she went to jail. Is that fair?

[Mackenzie Shurilla's Friend]

No, because what they're missing, she didn't go, she didn't go right to prison right after the car accident. So the car accident was July 31st. Okay. She was in the juvenile facility for almost a year after that. Okay. Then. Then county for a couple weeks and then went to Marysville. So there was a long time between, I mean, people, you know, we do Got to move on at some point, right?

[Luigi Mangione]

She's got a big heart. And. And as her father, there is no way did my daughter crash that car on purpose to hurt Dominic or Devon there. It is an absolute story narrated by the prosecution. It's.

[Ashley Banfield]

It's not.

[Luigi Mangione]

It's not true. It never has. And there's no evidence, zero evidence to support any of that. There is evidence that we can discuss if you want. It's interesting. You leave your daughter out of that equation. Do you think there's a chance she crashed into that school to hurt herself? No, not at all. Not one bit. Not one bit. She loved life. Your daughter was not suicidal. Not at all. Not at all. She.

[Lowe's Announcer]

She even.

[Luigi Mangione]

We even had a. We even had somebody do a. After the crash, did a.

[Ashley Banfield]

Did a.

[Luigi Mangione]

Like a suicide test on her or questionnaire with her, and that person said that she was not suicidal. And if I would. And if my daughter was suicidal, my wife would know. And if my wife talked. My wife talked with my daughter about everything. My daughter told my wife everything. There's no way she wasn't suicidal before. She's not. If she's not suicidal after that. That is an absolute fabrication. It's a lie.

[Ashley Banfield]

Okay, So I had so many questions for Chris Cuomo about this interview, but also about the case and about us, people who are really passionate about true crime, either in it or following it. And then the outliers, the people who. There's just no way you'll convince them one way or the other, even in the face of hard, fast evidence that some people actually did the thing they're accused of doing. I'm talking Kohberger and all the people out there who support him even though he did it. That awful thing. Anyway, it's a really good conversation with Chris just about this whole idea of true crime and, by the way, how it really unites us. Here's my chat with Chris. Cuomo

[Lowe's Announcer]

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[Luigi Mangione]

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[Luigi Mangione]

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[Ashley Banfield]

Chris Cuomo, Great to have you on drop dead serious. Nice backdrop.

[Luigi Mangione]

Thank you. Home to home. I'm so happy for your success. You are so important to this space. It's great to see you thrive. I know you've got so much more to do, but I'm happy to see it as somebody who's loved watching you work for a long time. So congrats. It's good to see you again.

[Ashley Banfield]

Oh, right back at you. I'm thrilled that you're doing the true crime stuff now. And what a way to kick it. I mean, doing the interview with the Shahrillas. This is one of those stories, Chris, where I think you said it best once when you said there's nothing that brings America together more than stories like this.

[Luigi Mangione]

Everybody, look, especially now. I mean, you know, in America, we're so divided on everything that at least we accept the process here, the investigation, the trial. You may like it, you may not like it, you may see things and not see things. We all know it's not perfect, but at least it's right and wrong and not right and left. So you've got a shot. And the Shurilla case is an interesting example of how this melding of culture and ethics and morals and all this stuff comes together in this one story. I have become very controversial on this story, and I really am surprised by this because I'm not questioning who did this or who's criminally responsible for it. Obviously, it's Shurilla that there's no question about it. I'm just saying the prosecution's case on motive makes no sense because for it to make sense, and the juror and the judge found it made sense real quick, too, you have to believe she was suicidal. I do not believe she was Suicidal. I do not believe she is suicidal. So if she's not suicidal and she wasn't suicidal, then how did she intend to kill herself and them? So it's just never made sense. So then I started looking at it more because it's one of those cases where it's right outcome, wrong rationale. Okay, so. But that frustrates me. And then once I talked to the father, I realized this was totally botched. And again, I'm not saying she's not criminally responsible. Of course she is. And I'm not surprised. It was bound over. By the way. I understand why she was tried as an adult on this. I do. But there were real mistakes made here by their lawyers that absolutely made this worse for their child. There's no question in my mind.

[Ashley Banfield]

The interesting thing, I think, for so many people, though, is, is the question of impulsivity. And people who are young can be extraordinarily impulsive. And if they give you reason to believe in, say, I don't know, a few weeks before that, you have an intention to do something like crash this car with you in it, I feel like it's pretty hard to get past

[Luigi Mangione]

that, obviously, because the judge took her out. 1, 2, 3. They also gave a judge the opportunity to do that, thinking that this was going to be a data driven trial, a forensic driven trial, and it wasn't. Look, I. Again, I believe the lawyer didn't argue the context of those texts well, because there are other texts that he had access to or should have that show Dom. These are teenagers in a volatile relationship. Okay? And she has a dose of cuckoo. And I don't know that Dom did, but he decided to be with someone with a dose of cuckoo. And he said a lot of crazy things to her, too. In this scenario with the car with the grabbing the wheel, there was stuff that Dom did also that would feed this idea of instability. So it wasn't just her craziness and her violent tendencies. I think he didn't argue it well, to be honest, he barely argued it at all.

[Ashley Banfield]

When you get these explosive, you know, true crime stories like the Mackenzie Shurilla story, and then you add, I guess, fuel to the fire with Netflix and parents who are very outspoken, and it feels as though they don't do themselves any justice. I wonder how you felt having this conversation with Mrs. Schurilla and Mr. Scurrilla and whether you think they're doing any favors to their daughter.

[Luigi Mangione]

I don't think they have any choice because they've got to help their kid. Right. I mean, it's just the parents mandate. I think that their way of helping her is going to wind up shifting from trying to get her out of prison to helping her deal with making it through and what she becomes after it, because I do not see any real likelihood of appeal, even though I do believe she had ineffective counsel. So do they help themselves? Do they not in the Netflix thing? Absolutely not. But I think they were set up. I think that that story was going to be very obvious from Jump, which is looks one way, turns out it's another. And I think that the narrative won out over what was probably the most balanced assessment of the situation.

[Ashley Banfield]

Listen, it's really hard if you're a parent. Anybody watching would say you would do anything for your child. And yet the parents of Mackenzie Scrulla have been so vilified. Do you think that just go to the decision to have a bench trial. Do you think that was really their. Their urging, or do you think this was a lawyer that gave maybe bad advice?

[Luigi Mangione]

Yep. I don't. I don't think they know what they're talking about. They know better now. But they. I think they had two things going against them. One, they were overwhelmed, out of their depth. Okay. And two, they were witnesses for the prosecution, so they weren't really in there and watching it in real time because of their. The rules of when a witness can be there and when they can't. And this lawyer. And look, I don't mean to condemn the guy. I welcome him on the show. We've reached out to him numerous times. I understand why he doesn't want to come on. If I were here, I probably wouldn't want to either. But it was a bad decision. I understand why he made the decision. He thought a judge will be more understanding of the incompleteness of the data. The problem with that argument is not just the convenience of my saying, with hindsight, you were wrong, but the data is a slam dunk. Like the father kept arguing. To me, Chris, it's just four seconds. Do you know how long four seconds is accelerating from 50 to 100 miles an hour? You know what I mean? People run 40 yards in five seconds. You know what I mean? So that's a lot of time. And that's a fundamental misunderstanding of what a judge absolutely saw right away. There is no evidence that she did anything but accelerate. That's a bad set of facts for you. So what do you have to argue? Why didn't she do anything? Why? Because she was suicidal and wanted to kill herself and someone else Spontaneously, and then never wanted to kill herself again. To the only suicidal person who gets over it after the mass tragedy. I never heard of that before. What I have heard of is someone who's high out of her mind, mentally a little off. And the missing link is, one, they didn't argue diminished capacity. And two, she says she doesn't remember anything, which is not easy to believe. It's possible, as we both know. Medically, it happens, but unsatisfying.

[Ashley Banfield]

Let's say it's possible more when you're hammered. But if you're a habitual marijuana user, and she had used marijuana before many times and driven many times, and then another like this ever happened, so it's a little harder to believe. Yeah, But I also just think that the kind of person Mackenzie Shurilla seems to be, I don't know her, but I sure don't like what I see in images and Facebook and Instagram and photographs and what people say about her and the things that she said and the audio tapes that we've heard. I mean, just somebody who, a few months after this horrendous thing happened, dresses up as a corpse for Halloween. I don't think you have any shot at getting any sympathy from anyone.

[Luigi Mangione]

Yeah, I think. I think she does dumb things. We've both seen a lot of adults who know better, who should know better, who have people telling them better, do stupid things to act out because. Why? Well, there's a narcissism sometimes. For her, I think that there's an ignorance and a youth to it. And again, I'm not saying any of this by way of excuse, just by way of explanation. I didn't want to talk to her parents because I think she didn't do it. I didn't want to talk to them because I think she shouldn't have been convicted. That's. That's not what I'm saying. Could I make an argument that this is a manslaughter case? Yes. Why? I don't believe there's beyond a reasonable doubt case to be made that she was suicidal and you can't try to kill. I have the intent to kill yourself and others, which is what this charge is when I don't believe she wanted to die. And again, that doesn't mean I think she's innocent. She's not innocent. She's guilty. The question is of what?

[Ashley Banfield]

Of what? Yeah, well, and there's, you know, obviously there's a public relations effort. Her parents are speaking publicly. They're defending her, trying to mount an appeal with New evidence of text messages, et cetera. Where does that stand, by the way?

[Luigi Mangione]

That's. You nailed it. They believe that the texts create context, but they don't, because the only element of the crime they go to is not an element of the crime, which is motive. The shit we care about most in the true crime space does not have a place at trial. Juries want to hear about motive, as we know, but in investigations, you do. Means, motive, and opportunity. Those are the three boxes you're looking to check with a suspect at trial. It's just actus reus mens rea. It's just the mindset. Did you have the requisite mindset? Did you mean to do this the way we need you to for it to be this crime? It's not why you meant it. The jury wants to hear why. They did not get to hear why here, except from the prosecution side, which I think was very compelling but stilted and not well defended.

[Ashley Banfield]

I was very. I was just sort of taken aback when I watched Mackenzie Schirilla's interview in prison with the updo. First of all, I don't know where you get makeup and hair like that in prison, but, my God, she's got some friends behind bars who helped her out. And I. You know, again, it's just sort of like this. This inability to understand your environment when you show up in a prison interview with a beehive and fabulous eyeliner. But more importantly, and I think this is where you as a lawyer have caught this. Right away, she's asking off camera to someone if she's hit all the right checkboxes on this interview. And now I'm not doing it justice, right? I'm. I'm basically saying, you know, she effectively was trying to check boxes in this interview and then wanted to find out if she'd done the right job asking her guide. Her guide off camera.

[Luigi Mangione]

Terrible. 10% ignorance, 90% arrogance. Horrible. Just horrible. You know, I mean, that was. That was fucking horrible. Excuse my language, but it was over as soon as that happened. It's over. It's over. You know, I mean, like, imagine if you were sitting in that chair across from her. Even though I don't think that series was set up to be fair to her. And I understand that. I understand what it is as a narrative device, but all you would have said is, wait, what? What are you asking him for? Right? What are you asking that for? What boxes do you want to check? Is it the truth or is it not the truth? And the only thing I'll give Her, which the both parents argue very vehemently, and I get it, and they're not wrong, is Cuomo. You seem very suspicious of her not remembering anything that night. And I'm like, I am. I am suspicious. I know it's possible, but it's unsatisfying. And they hit me with the obvious, which is, wouldn't she make it up then to save herself? Wouldn't she make something up? And that's a good point, especially if she's who they say she is. She should have made up a story and she should have testified. And I don't know the answer to that. I don't know the answer to whether it's just she doesn't remember or she started that way and doesn't want to change it. I did ask them, why don't you get her hypnotized? Why don't you see if something can come back? And they said, well, it's not admissible in court. That's not true. That's not true. It doesn't matter how she gets a new recollection. But if she does get a new recollection and a prosecutor believes it's somehow instructive, or a judge, then you do a habeas motion, habeas corpus motion, federal law, you have the body. Meaning what? That you get a chance to go to court to argue you're being unlawfully detained. Still. And the explanation would be a justification, excuse that somebody grabbed the wheel. I just remembered now, would they buy it? I doubt it. But that's the one part. You know, the suicidality and her not testifying are huge question marks for me. Not because I don't think she did it. I just don't think we got the truth of what really happened and why.

[Ashley Banfield]

I think what's so fascinating is when people decide to go public and litigate through Netflix. I'm not sure if they realize that this is public record that comes back to you in any kind of retrial you may be seeking. I don't know what your thoughts are on whether the Charilla family has a hope in hell of having this trial result thrown out. Because you know those prosecutors will retry her. Do you think they have a shot?

[Luigi Mangione]

No.

[Ashley Banfield]

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[Luigi Mangione]

No, I don't.

[Ashley Banfield]

Simple as that.

[Luigi Mangione]

And do I think that's wrong to our original point? No, because you had the process. You had the process and by the way, you did it. By the way. You know what I mean? So it's not like, you know, it's still a whodunit and you know, you just the wrong person. You're a 5, 10, 160 pound 18 year old black guy. You know what I mean? That's not what this is. You did it. You gave good reason for suspicion of your motives with your texts and your behavior and everything else. And the way you dealt with the case, your lawyer. And that's on you. Ultimately, you know, I can be a totally shitty lawyer and make a hundred bad calls. I'm still your lawyer, Ashley Banfield. And you're the one who's going to pay the price for it. You know, an ineffective counsel is common to argue and very rarely successful. And it wasn't successful here on appeal.

[Ashley Banfield]

Yeah, because ineffective assistance of counsel doesn't mean. Oh, I didn't this guy really dunk. It means they've actually made terrible egregious errors.

[Luigi Mangione]

And I had a case where a guy fell asleep for a majority of the trial as the attorney. Wow. And they appealed on ineffective counsel and lost because the judge said. The judge said, well, he woke up during the parts that mattered. So it's hard to win it yeah, that's brutal.

[Ashley Banfield]

I would, I would, I would argue that is ineffective assistance.

[Luigi Mangione]

Yeah, me too. But it just shows you how high the bar is, you know?

[Ashley Banfield]

Yeah. And I've seen cases where the counsel himself has thrown himself on the sword for his clients, saying I was the ineffective one. Yes, he's innocent. And it actually did prevail. So it's, it's a super interesting area of the law. And I'm always super fascinated with people do mount that. But, but the audience should know just because you have a shitty lawyer doesn't mean you have ineffective assistance of counsel. You just got to choose your lawyers wisely.

[Luigi Mangione]

And unlike what we deal with in our politics, you had due process, you had it and you lost. And then you tried again and the Supreme Court of the state said no. And now you're trying the federal route, which you are allowed to do. And the chances of success are very, very low. For no other reason is they. You did it. Now, again, do I think it's the right crime? No, I don't. Do I feel zealous about it? No, I don't. Why? Because it doesn't really leave us in a different place in terms of the sentencing anyway. In my opinion, I think if it were a manslaughter case, I don't think it's what the parents think, which is just. It's a horrible accident. I don't think the case is there beyond a reasonable doubt that it was an accident. I think that it's much more likely that there was intent here. Recklessness at a minimum. That's what I think the right charge was. That's what I think the right case was, was manslaughter.

[Ashley Banfield]

Yeah. You know, it's interesting. Do you remember Jack Ford?

[Luigi Mangione]

Jack Ford, very well.

[Ashley Banfield]

Such a great guy. I worked with him at Court TV for five years. He effectively was my law professor. He teaches law at Yale. He was an anchor on Good Morning America on the Today show. So he's just that very well rounded man who explains everything in the most clear and concise and pristine way. And I learned so much from Jack Ford. He once told me something that really stuck with me and it was that people will come out of a half of a courtroom, will come out of a courtroom and say, I didn't get justice. And it's wrong to say that because you got justice. It just wasn't the result you wanted. Or did you?

[Luigi Mangione]

Yeah, it's the process. See, it's the process.

[Ashley Banfield]

Exactly.

[Luigi Mangione]

And that's why I love this. And that's why that's really the full statement. That's why I love it, because it's so much more satisfying than our politics. And yes, justice isn't blind. And yes, they get it wrong and yes, it's unfair. And yes, it is a two tiered system that is highly reflective of our society overall. Yes, yes, yes. But it is still better than the other two branches. And you know, do I think it's slipping? Yeah. At the federal level, there's some slippage. The judges are just outright political appointees now, ideologically as well as operatively. Obviously, their judicial appointment, you know, their, their appointments, because that's how the Constitution works. But they are like the Supreme Court. There's no question that the justices should talk about their politics, actually, because the idea that they don't come into play is crazy.

[Ashley Banfield]

Cuckoo.

[Luigi Mangione]

That's cuckoo idea. It can't be that when you put me on the court, I just happen to rule most of the time in line with your politics. And when I don't, it's so rare that we know the names of the justices who don't. So I just think that this happened after Robert Bork.

[Ashley Banfield]

Yeah. How many decisions have we seen along ideological lines right afterwards? I know, but I will say this. I know. I remember there was a. I went to cover Iraq right before America went in 2003, and I went into the old CNN offices and the NBC offices that were covered in dust. It was like a time capsule from when you folks took off. And Saddam Hussein wouldn't talk to me. He wouldn't meet with me, but Tariq Aziz would, and so did other, some of his other ministers. And one of his other ministers forced me to have lunch with him and then made me pay the bill and said, now if you don't report the way I like, you'll become a permanent guest. And I took it very seriously because Saddam used to take other people permanent guests a lot. He did it back in 1991 to the little kid and all those Americans that were surrounding him. And I remember thinking right then and there, I don't care how bad justice is back home.

[Luigi Mangione]

Better than this.

[Ashley Banfield]

Way better than anything that happens here, because this guy means business. He truly will hold me here forever with probably no charge if I don't speak, you know, highly of his leader. So let me ask you, because we're going into politics and I always try to stay out of that.

[Luigi Mangione]

Yeah, yeah.

[Lowe's Announcer]

Get out of it.

[Luigi Mangione]

Get out of it.

[Ashley Banfield]

Oh, I know. I was so happy to be out of it. But I want to ask you About. I want to ask you about the. All the, all the movements that happen with like people who are so untowards, like the Casey Anthony's of the world and, and now the Mackenzie Shririllas. There's these free Mackenzie cadre of society. What do you make of the folks that just kind of come, Even the coburgers? He's got some pro burgers.

[Luigi Mangione]

Mangione.

[Ashley Banfield]

Yeah, yeah, right. Boy, there's one. But what do you make of this kind of area of true crime that's developed when all the facts support the reality and the truth and then you just have these outliers?

[Luigi Mangione]

It's a great, great question and it's a conundrum, very real what you're talking about and accelerating. Why? I identify several things. One, there is a cottage industry of clickbait. So there's just a market to be made in saying crazy things about whatever is in the news and the algorithms reward you for it. So there's that. Two, we have a real breakdown of trust. Everybody believes everything's a conspiracy because things keep wind up being not what they were told us to be. There's that. And we amplify because of social media. We magnify minority voices in a way that we didn't used to. So there have always been these kooky people. You and I would always get the letters from the prisoner or, you know, the crazy letter, you know, with the weird writing with the, you know, the ten pages handwritten unloosely.

[Ashley Banfield]

They usually ask me about my feet.

[Luigi Mangione]

Really not me. And I apologize for asking about your feet. You don't have to bring it up every time I see you. So, you know, there's. So it's like a combination of these factors that have gone into it. But I also think we're in a little bit of a sticky spot right now. People don't believe things. And there is, you know, I saw once an expression, skepticism is a form of intelligence, but it is the lowest form of intelligence. And when you say, look, I've been reporting on this for, you know, six months now. Yeah, I don't know, Ashley. I don't know. Yeah, I know you don't know because you haven't been reporting on it for six months and I just told you where it has led me to, and these are the options of where we're at. And I don't know.

[Mackenzie Shurilla's Friend]

I don't know.

[Luigi Mangione]

I think may not have been. Yeah, I think Mangione may have been set up by the deep state.

[Ashley Banfield]

I saw one headline and now I know, I'm pretty much sure I know the story. Yeah. Yeah.

[Luigi Mangione]

So I think all of that is working against us, but it's also why you're such a precious commodity. You know what I mean? You bring an expertise. Right. That, you know, is a function of time, experience, contacts. Right. And intelligence. And that's really important in a space that can be so deceptive so easily.

[Ashley Banfield]

Yeah. And we read these cases, you know, like last night I was open, one eye open, reading one of these cases until 2:30 in the morning, and I realized it's 2:30 in the morning and I can't keep one one eye open. It's time to go to bed. But that's sort of the. It's what we do because we really like it. Like, we kind of live these things. Things, you know, it's sort of a weird thing. But, but, but for that reason, I have decided I can add opinion. And I do. And I. And I am forthright about the fact that here is my opinion about this case. And if I were on a jury or if I were litigating this, I would feel this way. You know, I think it's a must, by the way, that it's an opinion.

[Luigi Mangione]

You know, I think it's a must because, look, so much of it is opinion. It's based on what? What is it based on? You know, people always criticize journalists and say, I don't know how objective you are. What human being is objective about something that isn't completely quantifiable? Two plus two is four always. Yes. I've seen the Instagram clips of the guys who say math isn't infinite. I'm not that smart. That's a quantifiable thing. We know what day it is today. Okay? That's why in the law, what do they have? Judicial notice, which is what? We just accept that this is a fact. It was Monday, you know, that day of that month was that day. That's what it is. This is what time the sun rose in New York on that day. Judicial notice. Everything else is subjective. We are subjective. So I think that where we have arrived in the media in general, whether it's this or politics or business or whatever the space, just be transparent. I hate this guy. I want you to know that, but I don't. I think it's good that he's challenging this company or whatever it is, whatever the issue is, just be transparent. Because everybody thinks you have a bias anyway. The standard is not objectivity. It's fairness.

[Ashley Banfield]

Better to be.

[Luigi Mangione]

Is Ashley fair? Right. Is Ashley Fair. I got to tell you, I really wanted to see this guy go down for this, but now I think they botched the investigation. You know, that's fairness. That's fairness and that's what people want because they don't believe that you don't feel one way or the other about the shrillas. You know what I mean? Some say, some say. Who's some.

[Ashley Banfield]

Who are the some?

[Luigi Mangione]

Who's they? Come on, it's you you're talking about.

[Ashley Banfield]

You know, so speaking of that subjectivity, a lot of people have a specific opinion about MacKenzie and the sentence that she got and the fact that she will be out one day. Mackenzie herself apparently has told others about her concern that she's not going to be able to have a family and children of her own at some point in her life. And you know, many people will say boo fucking who, but there will be that, right? Like she's created a zeitgeist in which she'll have to live when she's out. Fair or unfair?

[Luigi Mangione]

Fair, my therapist says, is a four letter word. So that's how it is. Do people get second acts? Yeah, I mean, look, she was 17 when this happened. Okay? I have three specimens of that animal in my house. Two have transited through it, one is in it right now. Those are not fully formed human beings. They are, they are not to be trusted and taken seriously with any.

[Ashley Banfield]

Oh my God, I just let my boat to my 19 year old boy and you're saying this?

[Luigi Mangione]

I mean, look, we both know that, like there's a good chance he'll come back and not tie one of the lines and you'll be like, did you know that the boat is bashing up against the bulkhead right now? Wasn't me. Yeah, it was. It was you. Oh, I don't know.

[Lowe's Announcer]

Think so.

[Luigi Mangione]

You're doing too much, you know? Yeah, I got one of those in my house. I got one of those in my house. So do I give her that grace? Oh, 100%. 100%. The sentence is harsh. Why? Because it was a really harsh crime and there was no need for this to have happened. Now again, and I haven't even mentioned it yet,

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[Luigi Mangione]

Ahora masco Loewez ye vacada projekto al

[Lowe's Announcer]

sigente niver Ahora quince porciento nuna selecion de puertas.

[Luigi Mangione]

This lawyer did not effectively argue what really may have changed this case, which is the two parts that we've talked about, diminished capacity in the bench trial. But then this other one, they absolutely have medical records and testimony of her having this very remote medical condition called pus, which is basically just a blood pressure induced dizziness on changing elevations. It really wasn't argued effectively. And they'll say, well, the lawyer said the judge wasn't buying it. Okay, But I still would have argued the hell out of it because I thought when I first started covering the case they created as an excuse structure for the trial. But that's not what it is. Not. The truth of it is she was diagnosed with it before the trial. And she has friends who will say, her mother told me, be careful. She starts like kind of zoning out and looking at you and it may be this. And don't catch her if she's falling because that makes it worse. I believe all that. It just wasn't argued effectively at the trial. Might it have changed the mind in a jury 100%? It might have with this judge, maybe, maybe not. But it was not created for trial, Ashley. And I didn't know that from reading the trial record. And that is bad practice. Malpractice, I don't know. But it's a bad practice.

[Ashley Banfield]

You look at, I always go back to, I think the gold standard of that is the Casey Anthony trial. I mean, that thing looked like it was wrapped up when we all went in there. And along came a crazy concocted defense that Jose Baez put forward. And the jury bought it. So, yeah, even they overcharged.

[Luigi Mangione]

They overcharged and they overexposed the father. And that makes it tough for jury.

[Lowe's Announcer]

They over.

[Ashley Banfield]

They jumped over a really big chasm in the prosecution as well. And that was like, moms don't usually stare down at their kids, put tape over their face and watch them die slowly. And that was like they tried to get the jury to buy that. They should have just said, we don't know how, we just know it happened.

[Luigi Mangione]

Right. But when you ask me to kill somebody, I don't want to have to own that when I feel that you didn't really nail it. I know she did. I know she had something to do with it, but maybe the father had something to do with it. And you want me to kill her, and I'm not comfortable with that. Like, I believe that. I mean, we know it. We know the juror said it. And I get that death penalty. They've got to be not only beyond a reasonable doubt that you're guilty, but you are a real piece of shit.

[Ashley Banfield]

Pretty little girls across the courtroom. It's hard to look them in the eye and think, I'm good to kill you. Real hard.

[Luigi Mangione]

It's tough. Especially when I don't. Maybe the father did have something to do with it. I don't know. You know what I mean? Like, I don't know. I don't think so, but I don't know. I don't. I'm not 100%. I don't know.

[Ashley Banfield]

No, I'm 100%. George and Cindy. I've. I've sat it. I sat over a meal with those two, and I don't. Not for a minute. No way, Jose.

[Mackenzie Shurilla's Friend]

Nope.

[Luigi Mangione]

You don't think one of them had something to do with the moving the body?

[Ashley Banfield]

Nope, I sure don't. Those two were so crushed and destroyed by not only the loss of the child that they were really raising honestly and building beautiful little, you know, play structures in the backyard for this child. And they're living in their house with their daughter, who was a loser, you know, and then the lies that. That Casey told to destroy them as well. Yeah, we digress. But it is interesting when we get to a Mackenzie Sherilla and you see the hubris, everything else seems to fall away. Like, the so little of the case and all the interesting arcane issues that you're mentioning, they fall away because people just don't like her.

[Luigi Mangione]

And look, that's justice. That's justice. That's why we have a rule for it. You have jury nullification. And by the way, I had someone just come on my show the other day and ask for that with Luigi Mangione. And, you know, she said, I just. I must say that the jury, anyone who's on the jury, you know, you can nullify. You can nullify. And. Yeah, you can. Why would you nullify in this case? Because health care companies suck, so you should shoot one of them in the head. And we have a lot of people in this country, probably more than you do in your country by percentage, by the way, is okay with that. They're okay with that.

[Mackenzie Shurilla's Friend]

Yeah.

[Luigi Mangione]

And I think that that's why Again, that's why this space. Matt, we got to talk, man. We got to conversate because people are getting really extreme with their feelings about things. And I think the next wave that we'll see in our space is the death penalty. I think the death penalty is going to come back. I can't believe Trump hasn't done more with it. I can't believe it. It's such a winner for him of harshness and strength. I think we should kill all these drug dealers. I think if you. If you. I think if you deal drugs, I think they should kill you. That's what I. You don't think a majority of the American people would. Would be on board with it? If you said it the right way,

[Ashley Banfield]

I think 50%, but just right in line with where we are right now. But I'll tell you something else. Jack Ford, again, everything comes back to Jack Ford. He once told me he was in a courtroom and he thought he had done voir dire just perfectly as a little old lady on the panel. And he's just about ready to, you know, approve her as one of his jurors. And then she mentioned something about the death penalty and how maybe it should be around for parking tickets.

[Luigi Mangione]

You know, look, you never know, man. Voir deer is a really strange time with what kind of person you have on there and what they are in person versus what they are on paper. But, you know, the jury of your peers, you know, which we get from Greenland, is a system that was designed for you to be tried by people who knew you. And that's not what it is anymore. It's a group of people who may have absolutely no idea about what's going on.

[Ashley Banfield]

Now. It's just citizens, literally. You don't have to be.

[Luigi Mangione]

You can't get out of it.

[Ashley Banfield]

Gender, sex, age, nothing.

[Mackenzie Shurilla's Friend]

Just.

[Luigi Mangione]

It's just citizens who can't get out of it.

[Ashley Banfield]

It's just that, and they shouldn't. It's a great thing to do. I say, I get on my soapbox all the time, Chris. I say, look, I got a shirt. Surefire way for you to get out of jury duty. You go down the street and you enlist in the services and you go over and you fight for your country. Now, I prefer to do my civic duty with a latte and sushi over lunch as a juror, but you go ahead and you go fight with a gun because you will get out of jury duty if you do that.

[Luigi Mangione]

Yeah, that is. That is true. And I think, look, everybody wants to say they're A patriot on. Nobody wants to do the work. And, you know, that is. That is a classic. That is a classic conflict that we deal with. And I'll tell you, I sat on a jury in a slam dunk buying bust case, okay, was a slam dunk. This kid had a stack of money in his pocket. He was a drug dealer. He was in a drug dealer place. He was working a corner. They observed him. They had the Kel device. They had it. They had it. The paperwork was a little off. Paperwork was a little off. Why? They had done like 20 that day. And the description of the kid, everything was. It was a little off. Okay? I sit in this jury. There's one guy who's a Columbia professor who says, I don't trust the cops, you know, and like, well, listen, I'm not. I don't want to say, you know, I'm just there doing the process. I'm not like the four person right there. And he refused to vote guilty on this kid. And we hung and I knew the kid was guilty. And yeah, the paperwork was a little imperfect. It was, but it wasn't reversible error in my opinion. It wasn't even a close call. And then on the way home, I was on the train with the kid and a bunch of his buddies. He was released, like, right away when we were there. And, you know, they were all wearing their colors and that's what it was. And, you know, people can feel one way or around about it, but, I mean, it's a really interesting process. It's a really interesting process.

[Ashley Banfield]

That is so crazy that you rode the train with them on the way out. It's why these conversations are so great. Hey, I hope you'll come on the show again, Ashley.

[Luigi Mangione]

I am always a call away. I am so happy for your success and I can't wait to see more and more of it. It really matters and you're really doing what you're best at. You know, you got a lot of tools, but. But this, you know, you. You really are. You. You really are a commodity in this. So I'm happy for you. I'll always come on if I have anything that you want. Let me know if you want. If you think I got it wrong and you want to smack me around for sport, have me on.

[Ashley Banfield]

Won't do that, but I will invite you back and thank you for this and the feelings mutual. Welcome to the true crime space. So there you have it. My great thanks to Chris Cuomo for that great conversation. And I will invite him, him back on as well. Again, it's always really good to speak with people who are passionate about a particular topic, but also have the the cred to back it up. He's a lawyer, so he gets it, he understands it, he knows the process, but he also knows the emotion and what happens in, you know, the messaging, in the media and outside the media as well. So lots of fun. Thanks so much for being here. Always appreciate you listening, you watching. And remember, the truth isn't just serious, it's drop dead serious.

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