Male DNA On The Garrote?! John Ramsey Talks Evidence, Testing, and Radio Silence From Police | JonBenet Ramsey Case

Summary

Drop Dead Serious With Ashleigh Banfield

Episode: "Male DNA On The Garrote?! John Ramsey Talks Evidence, Testing, and Radio Silence From Police | JonBenet Ramsey Case"
Date: September 17, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the ongoing, unsolved murder of JonBenet Ramsey — nearly 30 years after the shocking 1996 crime. Ashleigh Banfield sits down with JonBenet’s father, John Ramsey, to discuss frustrating updates (or the lack thereof) in the investigation, the potential of modern DNA/genetic genealogy techniques, and new revelations regarding male DNA supposedly found on the garrote used in the murder. The emotional conversation explores both technical aspects of criminal investigations and the very personal impact of being under suspicion for decades.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Persistent Mystery & John Ramsey’s Fight for Answers

• Enduring Pain: John Ramsey reflects on living under suspicion, losing his wife Patsy under the "umbrella," and relentless public scrutiny. Both he and Ashleigh emphasize he is a crime victim as well as a subject of the case.
  • “Time doesn't heal wounds.” (John Ramsey, 09:42)
• Desire for Resolution: John remains determined not just for himself but for his family, believing that solving the case is crucial for his surviving children to move forward.
  • “It'll change my children's lives. They need to have this cloud... removed from their life.” (John Ramsey, 09:42)

2. DNA Evidence — Old and New

• Early DNA Testing Limitations:
  • Initial investigations recovered unidentified male DNA from JonBenet's clothing but not all potential evidence items (like the garrote) were tested due to cost and technological limits at the time.
    • “What we did know was that... a number of items were sent to an outside lab... They did recover unidentified male DNA on some of the items, and they returned another six or seven of them untested back to the police.” (John Ramsey, 15:50)
• Male DNA on the Garrote:
  • John notes it's unclear whether the garrote was ever properly tested for DNA. Attorney Hal Haddon publicly claimed at CrimeCon that DNA was on the garrote; John’s information is indirect, leading to continued confusion.
    • “According to our information, which is old, it [the garrote] was never sampled for DNA. Now we've heard through the grapevine that yes, it was sampled and they did find male DNA on the... garrot.” (John Ramsey, 27:45)
    • Ashleigh: “It shocks me that... DNA on the garrote had never been tested.” (28:41)

3. The Promise and Frustration of Modern Genetic Genealogy (IGG)

• Explanation of IGG:
  • John explains how Investigative Genetic Genealogy (IGG) has solved many “unsolvable” cases by tracing DNA through public family history databases, reconstructing family trees to narrow suspects.
    • “It enables you to go into these public databases... and then build a family tree... In our case, [maybe] a third cousin related to this mother chromosome that lived in Boulder. Well, let's go check him out.” (John Ramsey, 05:33–07:52)
• Barriers to Use in JonBenet’s Case:
  • John has “no indication” Boulder police are using IGG, despite urging and its success in high-profile cases (e.g., Golden State Killer, Bryan Kohberger).
    • “I've hammered on them pretty hard. Very specifically used this IGG technique, have not gotten any confirmation that they're using it.” (John Ramsey, 08:22)
  • Technical issue: The DNA profiles from the late 1990s are not in the format (SNP-based) that IGG requires—though modern labs can now work with much smaller samples.
    • “The format is not compatible with IGG. They need a different technique in developing the sample.” (John Ramsey, 17:23)

4. Communication & Trust Issues with Police

• Radio Silence & Police Reluctance:

  • While John acknowledges improved (but still limited) communication under new leadership, he continues to feel shut out of meaningful updates and decision-making.
    • “I'm only hoping that they will see the value in doing it.” (John Ramsey, 17:45)
    • On recent contact: “They are under law... to give us a briefing once a year... We had that briefing in January. I asked for a meeting with Chief Redfern... and he agreed to give me 30 minutes.” (John Ramsey, 26:20)
  • Law enforcement’s tight lips possibly relate to not tipping off a potential suspect—but for John, the information gulf only adds pain and frustration.

• Victim Advocacy:

  • Ashleigh encourages John to use victim’s advocate channels for regular updates, given his status as victim, not suspect.
    • “I would personally, as the father of a murder victim... like someone appointed my point person as a victim's advocate so that I can get regular updates.” (Ashley Banfield, 31:08)

5. Obstacles: Money, Politics, and Bureaucracy

• Money Isn’t an Issue, Say Authorities:
  • John offers to fund DNA testing if budget is a problem, but Boulder officials insist cost isn’t stopping new testing.
    • “If money is an issue... we'll get the money. And the DA said, 'nope, that is not an issue.'” (John Ramsey, 31:59)
• Political Reluctance:
  • Multiple anecdotes reveal apparent political stonewalling—both at city and state level; John cites lack of responsiveness to petitions and even being blocked via email (to the Colorado governor).
    • “What we found was the politicians in, in Colorado were, they didn't want to touch our case...” (John Ramsey, 63:56)

6. Impact of Media, Community Support, and Public Perception

• Media Frenzy and Its Toll:
  • The case marks a notorious point in true crime and tabloid history for casting suspicion on the Ramsey family without robust evidence.
    • “We were told by the DA in Boulder... case was 100% based on the fact they didn't think we acted right that morning. Therefore we were guilty.” (John Ramsey, 11:12)
  • John and Ashleigh both wonder how much more intense the ordeal would have been if social media had existed in 1996.
    • “Can you imagine if social media had existed back then?” (Ashley Banfield, 10:36)
• Harassment and Public Support:
  • Despite headlines, John testifies to overwhelming kindness from the public—even strangers—while being virtually unemployable during years of suspicion.
    • “People were so kind to us and apologetic for what's being said to us.” (John Ramsey, 40:55)
    • “Pretty much [unemployable], yeah.” (John Ramsey, 36:52)
• Community Actions:
  • Burke’s classmates’ parents formed a “Burke Watch," showing local community’s support and concern for the Ramsey family’s safety.
    • “The parents in Burke's class formed a Burke watch... There’s a parent in the classroom every day all day long. And they volunteered.” (John Ramsey, 45:00)

7. Personal Impact, Adversity, and Faith

• Toll of Public Suspicion:
  • John recounts financial devastation and difficulties finding work due to public suspicion.
  • Law firms continued to represent the Ramseys pro bono out of loyalty and belief in their innocence.
    • “Our attorneys worked for years without getting paid... They became very committed to righting a very terrible wrong.” (John Ramsey, 33:52, 34:04)
• Faith and Grieving:
  • John credits his faith and prior loss (death of older daughter, Beth) for helping him survive the pain of JonBenet’s murder and aftermath.
    • “My intellectual faith kind of moved to my heart. And so I had that base that there's more life than what we see.” (John Ramsey, 39:35–40:44)

8. Other Case-Related Discussions

• Suspects:

  • Discussion of Gary Oliva (early lead, convicted sex offender) and John Mark Carr (false confessor), with clarifications on rumors and misinformation.
    • “It always gets down to, is there a DNA match? And I presume his [Gary Oliva’s] DNA was taken and there was no match.” (John Ramsey, 51:15)

• Attempted Contact from Oliva at CrimeCon:

  • Oliva apparently attempted a meeting to "apologize," which John declined.
    • “I said, what's he gonna apologize for? Murdering my daughter? I don’t know what else he could apologize for... I didn’t have any interest meeting him.” (John Ramsey, 53:35)

• Political Influence:

  • John muses about whether political pressure (even from former President Trump) or more public campaigning might help force progress.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On the Umbrella of Suspicion:

  • “It was obscene. You could not go to the grocery store without seeing some tabloid pointing to these two as the murderers.” (Ashleigh Banfield, 01:04)
  • “We were told by the DA... the case was 100% based on the fact they didn't think we acted right that morning. Therefore we were guilty.” (John Ramsey, 11:12)

• On IGG Technology and Hope:

  • “If we employ IGG technology, there's a 70% chance we'll get an answer, maybe higher.” (John Ramsey, 49:58)
  • “It's the most powerful tool we have to solve this case.” (John Ramsey, 50:05)

• On Support vs. Media Narrative:

  • “People are not stupid. They... knew we were getting a raw deal.” (John Ramsey, 56:58)
  • “You can't hurt me anymore than I've been hurt by the loss of my child.” (Patsy Ramsey, quoted by John, 43:55)

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Important Segment Timestamps

| Segment Topic | Timestamp | |----------------------------------------------------|--------------------| | Opening, case background | 01:04–04:51 | | Intro to IGG technology | 05:06–07:52 | | Frustrations about police/tech usage | 08:22–09:42 | | Impact on Ramsey children & family | 09:42–10:16 | | Rumors & media's role in early investigation | 11:12–12:55 | | Critique of Boulder PD’s leadership | 13:24–14:11 | | CrimeCon, male DNA on the garrote | 15:24–17:23 | | Discussion of DNA sample formats and lab choices | 17:26–19:03 | | Othram Lab and frustrations re: Boulder PD | 23:10–24:40 | | Annual police victim updates & communication | 26:20–27:28 | | Garrote DNA: rumors, confusion, and anger | 27:45–28:41 | | Money and legal expense, financial toll | 31:59–36:52 | | Faith and coping with grief | 39:35–40:44 | | Burke Watch: community support story | 45:00–45:32 | | Gary Oliva, suspects, CrimeCon encounter | 51:08–54:11 | | John’s thoughts on using political pressure | 59:23–63:01 | | State, governor, and email block story | 63:01–63:56 | | Closing thoughts, public vs. media perception | 65:00–66:09 |

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Final Thoughts

This intimate and at times raw conversation not only highlights the forensic stagnation in the JonBenet Ramsey case but also underscores the resilience of a family who refuses to let a child’s murder fade into cold case oblivion. John Ramsey remains committed to solving his daughter’s killing, increasingly frustrated by bureaucratic inertia and the mysteries surrounding key evidence. The episode brings listeners up to date on the facts, the hopes attached to cutting-edge DNA science, and a father’s relentless quest for justice.

Ashleigh wraps up by expressing her conviction that the crime will be solved thanks to advancements in technology and the steely determination of JonBenet’s family and supporters.

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Notable Closing Quote:
“No one will fight like you will... for your case to be resolved.”—Ashleigh Banfield (66:09)

Transcript

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[Ashley Banfield]

Hey everyone, I'm Ashley Banfield and this is drop dead serious if you can believe it. It's been nearly 30 years. 29 to be exact. That is how long the JonBenet Ramsey case has haunted this country. A six year old little girl who performed in little many beauty pageants murdered in her own home Christmas night 1996. She was strangled with someone who was using a garrote. Her skull was fractured and a ransom note was left behind that has baffled investigators ever since. It's the case that should have been solved. But it wasn't. JonBenet's father, John Ramsey has lived this nightmare since day one. They targeted him and his wife Patsy and they put them under something called an umbrella of suspicion for years and years and years. Basically alluding to the fact that it's them. We just need to prove it. The headlines were obscene. You could not go to the grocery store without seeing some tabloid pointing to these two as the murderers. Life had to be hell and I say had to be held because years and years later they walked it all back. They took that umbrella of suspicion away. They cleared the Ramses and said we're sorry they were not the killers. They cleared them but not before Patsy had already died of cancer. So Patsy died under an umbrella of suspicion as a potential murderer of her own six year old girl. And John had to deal with that. John is still demanding answers. He wants the the murder of his little girl solved. And can you blame him? Even three decades later he has gone through the, The. The. The gamut, right? He's, He's A to Z. They've thrown everything at him. He wants that solved. He's not walking away saying, I want nothing to do with this anymore. I. I just want this gone. He wants it solved. He's still a crime fighter. I spoke with John and his wife Jan in depth at CrimeCon when we had a quiet moment to ourselves. And the conversation that we had really stopped me in my tracks. There were things that they told me I had not heard before, especially news about the garrotte that was used to kill JonBenet. You and I, as you know, true crime fans, we say, well, obviously that's the murder weapon. They would have tested that right away. Not necessarily. John has been astounded that all of the items of evidence weren't tested right away for DNA. Some were, but not all. And to this day, he doesn't know how many more have been or whether they've been retested or what kind of updates dated science has been applied to this very cold case. They don't tell him. Can't fault the police for not tipping their hand. They're not supposed to. But imagine what it's like for this father who was accused of being the killer and who now just wants to find the killer. John Ramsey decided to talk to me on this podcast about our conversation about the garrote. And I do want to keep in mind here, folks, that when I talk to John, I'm mindful he is a victim of crime. He's not just a subject or someone who's involved in crime fighting. He is a victim of crime as well. So sensitive conversation as well, even 29 years later. But without further ado, here's my conversation with John Ramsey. John, it's good to see you since our quick visit at CrimeCon, but thank you.

[John Ramsey]

Same here.

[Ashley Banfield]

Yeah. Interesting conversations all around with regard to DNA testing in general and how far it's come, and then specifically to the case of your daughter. Talk to me a little bit about what you discussed and what you learned.

[John Ramsey]

Well, excuse me, I have learned a lot in the very recent past. The term that now seems to define the latest technology is igg. Investigative genome. No, investigative.

[Ashley Banfield]

What's the G. Investigative. Genetic.

[John Ramsey]

Genetic. Yeah, investigative genetic genealogy. And that's been used as a technique in the last couple years to solve some really old cold cases. And it really is an investigative tool using DNA. And we don't have that. Have not had that. We've had a DNA database, which is all the bad guys. And if you have a DNA sample from a crime scene, you go in and see if it's one of the bad guys. And if it doesn't match, then, okay, that DNA is only then useful for conviction. You really can't use it for investigating unless you want to go through one by one getting DNA samples from, in our case, the 80,000 people that were in Boulder, Colorado on December. So what IGG does is it enables you to go into these public databases where, when they were available and using the, as I understand it, the mother's X chromosome in a sample that you've taken from your crime scene and then build a family tree. And it's a historic family tree. It goes back, okay, we know this mother was the parent of the perpetrator of the crime who's related to that mother. And it might, you might go back in, in our case, 30 years, develop a fairly complex family tree and you'll get to where, hey, in 1996, in December, there was a third cousin related to this mother chromosome that lived in Boulder. Well, let's go check him out. Then you go get a DNA sample from that third cousin. And if you, what's happened in the past is remarkably had matches, absolute, you know, confirming matches to the crime scene, the full crime scene DNA sample. And so it's a very powerful tool and I believe that it's the only way our case might be solved. But I think if it's.

[Ashley Banfield]

Can I ask you, have you learned any further whether the investigative bodies, whether it's Boulder police or the FBI or even the state police for that matter, have actually employed the newest crime fighting techniques like investigative genetic genealogy. You know, the things that have caught the Golden State killer, the things that have allegedly led know to, to, to other killer. Well, Brian Coburger, have you learned that they've been employing those techniques in your case?

[John Ramsey]

I have not and we've hammered on them pretty hard. Very specifically used this IgG technique, have not gotten any confirmation that they're using it. They listen and you know, the, the police department in the last year, year and a half got new leadership which was long overdue. They had very poor leadership back 30 years ago and it continued up until a couple years ago. And so the leadership is much better in my opinion than it ever was. And they listened to us. But I've got no indication that they're moving in that direction.

[Ashley Banfield]

And maybe, you know, maybe it's for the simple reason that they wouldn't want someone out there to know and go underground or go overseas. I can understand if they keep close to the vest in that. And John, you and I have known each other a long time. Sometimes I think when people interview you, they forget you're a victim in all of this. And they just ask these questions and they use terms about your child's murder as though it's just another investigative conversation. So I just want to apologize in advance for any details that we discuss about the evidence in the case because when you lose a child, time doesn't heal wounds.

[John Ramsey]

No, it doesn't. It doesn't. It changes you. But no, I'm able now to, you know, I want to solve this crime. It's not going to change my life at this point, but it'll change my children's lives. They need to have this cloud, even though it's fuzzy, removed from their life. They need to be able to move on to the next chapter in their lives. It affects them. And that solution to this crime will benefit them.

[Ashley Banfield]

Yeah, I mean, Burke has gone through hell.

[John Ramsey]

It's absurd what he's gone through. Yeah. It's just, it's just nuts. He was a nine year old little boy and never, ever was considered a suspect by the police, ever.

[Ashley Banfield]

Certainly by the mobs.

[John Ramsey]

But the mobs did. Yeah, it was, it was, it was good sport.

[Ashley Banfield]

Can you imagine if social media had existed back then?

[John Ramsey]

Oh, man, I, it, no, I can't. It would have been, it had been a manslaughter. Yeah. Was bad enough with the tabloids and, and the cowboy media, the mainstream news.

[Ashley Banfield]

The legacy news, they, they all, you know, covered it wall to wall, covered the story and, and went with all of the pointed allegations. You know, the umbrella of suspicion. I mean, it was always. There was a tone.

[John Ramsey]

Yeah. We were told by the DA in Boulder several years later that the police case was 100% based on the fact they didn't think we acted right that morning. Therefore we were guilty. They weren't sure which one it was. Mother, father, we were both in the house and we understood they had to investigate us as a starting point, even though it was absurd. But we understood it. But their strategy became, let's bring intense pressure on both John and Patsy. The innocent one will buckle and turn the guilty one in. Case will be solved. That was the whole strategy. They couldn't take it to trial because just because they didn't think we acted right that morning is that's no basis for a, A charge. And there was unidentified male DNA found within two weeks of JonBenet's murder on her clothing. Huge problem for the police to, to pursue their conviction that it had to be the parents because it's always the parents. So it was a mess. But the real problem relative to the media was that the police released a lot of misleading and false information to a local paper in Boulder which is now out of business, but they would report it just verbatim without fact checking and then the mainstream media would pick it up. And so that little effort to bring pressure on the family by releasing false information exploded on the police. I don't know if they planned it, I doubt it, they weren't that smart. But it sure did explode.

[Ashley Banfield]

And so what's that, what's confounding to me is that this has been a blight on the legacy of the Boulder police for three decades. It would seem to me that it would be their number one priority. They would do anything in their potential toolkit hit to solve this and become the hero cops that did what the others couldn't do. Do you think that is a mission? Do you think it's not a mission? Like where does that sort of theory stand?

[John Ramsey]

I don't know. That's, that's always been my, I've told the police, I said look, I've been very critical of the police. That's not fair to you as the new leadership. You didn't cause this mess and I'm sorry but I don't have anything else to go on. And, and typically the, the questions are how did this get to be such a mess? And, and it goes back to the, the leadership that was in place for 25, 26 years, terrible leadership. The chief of police who for I don't know, 25 years came out of the traffic division, never investigated homicide nor had any of his so called detective. So it was just a kind of a Keystone Cops department with poor leadership.

[Ashley Banfield]

That they would want that fixed now and that anyone in leadership position would want to be that, that headline grabbing hero that finally solved this incredibly cold case.

[John Ramsey]

Totally agree. And I've told him that I said if you can. And I've told him, I said look, if you'll do everything that can be done, which in my mind is using IGG technology and we come up empty handed, I'm going to say thank you for trying. You've done everything that can possibly be done. Thank you. I'm not going to criticize them for failure to get an answer because it's even that will may not produce an answer, but it's really baffling. I don't know the D.A. it's a good guy running for attorney general for the state. This would be a shoe in for him to get elected as the attorney general if he led the. You know, he's the chief law enforcement officer in the county, technically.

[Ashley Banfield]

When's the election?

[John Ramsey]

Good question. I don't know. Is it must be a year from now? I don't know. That's. I'm not sure.

[Ashley Banfield]

Who knows if things will be, you know, timed. You know, that's not unheard of, but I don't want to throw that accusation out. Well, it's a possibility, you know.

[John Ramsey]

Yeah.

[Ashley Banfield]

Let me ask you about the discussions at CrimeCon. And on one of the panels, the attorney named Hal Haddon told the audience that. That there was DNA on the garrote. And again, I'm sorry for bringing up this kind of painful evidence with you as a crime victim who lost your child, but this is so massive to me, and in all the years I'm trying to remember if I've ever even heard that there was DNA on the garrotte.

[John Ramsey]

Well, on the grot. No. What we didn't know. Well, what we did know was that in after Cha Monet's murder, a number of items were sent to an outside lab for sampling to see if there was crime, you know, DNA evidence from the crime scene. And they did recover unidentified male DNA on some of the items, and they returned another six or seven of them untested back to the police.

[Ashley Banfield]

And meaning they. They found some unidentified male DNA. So that's enough. We don't need to test everything else. We found what we were looking for.

[John Ramsey]

That is what I think happened. I mean, DNA testing was expensive back then.

[Ashley Banfield]

Sure.

[John Ramsey]

And that might have been an issue. And I said, well, we got. We got unidentified male neon day. That's all we need. But for some reason, those other items were never tested, one of which was the garrote. Garrotte. And so we've always said, well, test them. Test those items that haven't been tested. But the other thing that's important to. And I learned this in my process of understanding the whole system, the sample we have from 1997 and then it was confirmed with additional sample sampling in 2006, I think is in a format that's compatible with the federal database. That format is not compatible with igg. They need a different technique in developing the sample.

[Ashley Banfield]

Like a different DNA Modeling, you mean?

[John Ramsey]

Yeah.

[Ashley Banfield]

It doesn't mean it's apples and oranges. You can't take this apple and compare it with the database that has oranges.

[John Ramsey]

Exactly, exactly.

[Ashley Banfield]

So do we know if that is happening? That sort of. Because I know, listen, I, I'm not a scientist but I know that we are so far advanced in DNA technology that they can do that.

[John Ramsey]

They can. And I don't have any indication that they are doing it. I don't have any indication that they aren't doing it. So I don't know. I'm only hoping that they will see the value in doing it. I know the original. When I talked to them a year ago, they didn't want to do any more testing because they said we don't want to consume the sample. We have a very small sample. And so. Okay, I understand that. But in talking to these cutting edge labs, they can work with 100 picograms, very little, little nothing.

[Ashley Banfield]

This is what we learned in Coburger, that they had a very small sample and Othram was able to extrapolate from that and get the actual model that they needed to do the genetic testing. And that's what's just so confounding to me. Like. And again, I don't know the evidence, I don't know, but it seem to me it's not one sample. There was. And again, my apologies for bringing up the, the, the.

[John Ramsey]

That's all right.

[Ashley Banfield]

The realities of the evidence in the case because it's very painful just to me and I'm not JonBenet's parent. There was DNA on her underwear. There was DNA on the leggings. There was DNA now on this garrote. There was DNA found on a lot of pieces of evidence from the crime scene. So it seems to me that that is not such a microscopic sample.

[John Ramsey]

No, it, it isn't. And, and it's pretty hard to exist without leaving DNA around.

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[John Ramsey]

Is the story of the 1. As head of maintenance at a concert.

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[John Ramsey]

Ensuring every light is working, the H.

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[John Ramsey]

Plus 24. 7 customer support his venue never misses a beat. Call quickgranger.com or just stop by Grainger for the ones who get it done. The trick was our technology that could recover it. Well it's advanced so far that it can be recovered from a hair sample in the case of the case you just mentioned and we have unidentified hair samples that came from the blanket around Jonbone. We have a pubic hair sample. There's. There's sufficient in my opinion crime scene material that could be tested using today's technology. Get it in the right format to do the genealogy research.

[Ashley Banfield]

And again we don't know if it is happening. You know we don't know because we don't.

[John Ramsey]

And you know on the one hand I respect the police for you know, a good professional police department. It's not going to tell you what they're up to and I respect that. That was one of the problems with Boulder. They just had an open door to the tabloids. Anybody else who wanted to come in and, and write a story. I guess it was their opportunity to their five minutes of fame.

[Ashley Banfield]

You know, if the killer is out there now 30 years older. Right. 20. Are we at 29 or 20? I'm trying to.

[John Ramsey]

Well, it's coming up on 20. Eigth. It's coming up on three decades.

[Ashley Banfield]

Yeah, three years if the killer is still out there, still alive. And my thinking is that yes, because it is a young man's game to do the kind of break and enter that would have been required to do this crime in your house. So my feeling is maybe 30, 40, maybe he's 60, 70.

[John Ramsey]

Agreed.

[Ashley Banfield]

It does stand to reason though that if he gets wind that Boulder police got its act together and actually is now gum chewing, looking for the Rex Heuermann pizza box. You know they followed Rex Heuermann on the streets of Manhattan and they picked up the pizza box he threw in the garbage after lunch and inside were the crusts he was gnawing with his DNA laden saliva. So maybe that person would be more cautious like Bryan Kohberger was in putting all of his garbage into little plastic bags which didn't save him but you know what I mean.

[John Ramsey]

Yeah, yeah. No, that's a valid concern and, and that would be a good reason why the police are not talking. And I so I understand that but.

[Ashley Banfield]

I think they're you know Othram lab's work on Brian Coburger sample was not even three years ago. It'll be three years ago, this Thanksgiving, because they actually said at CrimeCon that they were asked during Thanksgiving weekend to go into the lab, leave your family's dinner table, and go into the lab and get this for us. We're against the clock. And they did it. Yeah. So it's not very old technology that they were working with, and you know that we became aware of that they could extrapolate these small DNA samples. So, for one thing, we don't know if Othram has been contacted. Right. By the Boulder police.

[John Ramsey]

Well, as far as we know, no, they have not. We. We met with author at CrimeCon, the Middlemans, and they said, no, we haven't been contacted by.

[Ashley Banfield]

Oh, they. So they were. They were forthright. They said. They said no. They didn't say, listen, we have a confidentiality agreement. We can't say who our clients are. They said no. Well, that's distressing.

[John Ramsey]

Yeah, it is, it is, and that's concerning. If they said, no, we can't talk to you. Sorry. We just said, okay, fine, we understand. And we would have said, okay, maybe they are talking to him. That's good enough.

[Ashley Banfield]

But that's a little more hopeful. Yeah, but here's my question. Did you take that? I mean, we're just. CrimeCon was only a week ago, so have you taken that to the Boulder police? Do you have regular meetings and do you plan to say, listen, what on earth could you possibly be waiting for?

[John Ramsey]

We have not taken that to the police yet. I'm actually drafting a letter to the D A. Who's the cheat? He. He's the.

[Ashley Banfield]

The head crime fighter in.

[John Ramsey]

In the crime fighter in the county. Yeah. So he's the head guy and that. I haven't sent it yet, but it's concerning now. Maybe they've chosen another lab. There may be another lab or two out there that have that capability, but I am very reasonably familiar with what Othram can do and.

[Ashley Banfield]

And the success that they have had.

[John Ramsey]

Oh, man, it's just. It's dramatic. And the piece that I learned that they can do, which I. I always wonder, okay, we get this sample, and it's called SNPs. SNP is the sample format that's needed for this genealogy research. If we get it in the SNP format, who's going to do the research? That's a big job to develop the family tree and all the research that's required. I thought the police department doesn't have that bandwidth to do it. Well, I learned that authorman has a staff of geneticists who do that.

[Ashley Banfield]

Wow. One stop shop.

[John Ramsey]

Yeah. Holy mackerel. That answers that question.

[Ashley Banfield]

So you're writing a letter to the DA right now to say what is happening? If you haven't appealed to Othram, why haven't you? And is there, I mean, how many companies exist out there like Othram?

[John Ramsey]

I don't know. Probably less than a half a dozen, I would say worldwide, maybe not even that many. I'm aware, I'm aware of a couple, three.

[Ashley Banfield]

And it would seem to me that author would be sort of a natural choice. Like I don't know their politics and I don't know with their conversations if they've had, you know, whatever they've had about, about what lab to choose if they are choosing one. But my God, with the success that they had with Co Burger Sample and, and they, and he's put away for life based on it, you know, it would seem.

[John Ramsey]

No, it's would be the place I'd go to if I was running the place. No question. You know, a no brainer.

[Ashley Banfield]

Did you ever hear and I don't know how many conversations you have with the Boulder police? Let me start there. How often do you actually talk to them as a victim of this crime? I would think that there'd be an advocate that you could reach out to anytime. Is that the relationship?

[John Ramsey]

Well, they are under law. I don't just Colorado law to, to give us a briefing once a year. They have to do that. And we had that briefing in January. I asked for a meeting with Chief Redfern while I was in Denver this past week and he agreed to give me 30 minutes. And so we met. That was week before CrimeCon. So it was what, two weeks ago?

[Ashley Banfield]

So you had your meeting with him or he agreed already?

[John Ramsey]

No, I, I had the meeting with him while I was in Denver.

[Ashley Banfield]

How'd that go?

[John Ramsey]

It was fine. It was good. Very open. And again we, we recognized that he only had 30 minutes to spare. So we were trying to be very brief but very focused on igg and he listened. That was pretty much it. Now they did say they'd sent some samples off again for testing to cbi, the Colorado Bureau investigation. And I would have felt better if they said it. We sent it off to Hawthram or an Othram.

[Ashley Banfield]

And let me ask you, I mean, my gosh, I can't even believe we're hearing. Well, 30 years since the crime and we're sending some more samples off for testing. Is that the, was that the time that the garrotte was tested? And it came back with male DNA.

[John Ramsey]

No, I don't. There's a question whether there was the grout was ever tested. According to our information, which is old, it was never sampled for, for DNA. Now we've heard through the grapevine that yes, it was sampled and they did find male DNA on the, on the grot.

[Ashley Banfield]

Is that a recent finding that this. I don't know.

[John Ramsey]

It was a secondhand, not a direct source.

[Ashley Banfield]

Okay, but where is, where was Hal Haddon, the attorney who said that at CrimeCon? Where was he getting this information that he stated unequivocally DNA testing on the knots on the garage had never been done. But.

[John Ramsey]

Well, at that point that he said that, that's all we knew.

[Ashley Banfield]

Yeah.

[John Ramsey]

And, and technically we don't know. I wouldn't say it's an unreliable source, but it's not a firsthand source that told us. No, that's right. It wasn't somebody from the police bar. So.

[Ashley Banfield]

But to be, but to be fully clear, it shocks me that, that that DNA on the garage had never been tested. Like what?

[John Ramsey]

Well, yeah.

[Ashley Banfield]

Why would they never test the DNA on the murder weapon? For God's.

[John Ramsey]

I know if, if that is true, if it remains true, then yeah, that's, That's a very pointed question. What in the world are you guys doing? We don't know. With 100 certainty that's true.

[Ashley Banfield]

So. And, and the chief obviously wouldn't divulge the, the specifics of the evidence, but said that some new. New evidence had been sent off for. For.

[John Ramsey]

Well, he didn't say new, so we don't know.

[Ashley Banfield]

I mean it could have been retested.

[John Ramsey]

Could be. He didn't say that, but that's would be our hope that that's what they're doing. It's. You know, as Jon Monet's father, I like, I'd like to talk to him every day. What are you doing today? But I realize that's just not going to happen and I understand why. You know, they, they. They are certainly a much more professional organization than we've dealt with for the last 25 years.

[Ashley Banfield]

Will they speak to you more often than. Than once here? I know.

[John Ramsey]

Oh, I think so, yeah.

[Ashley Banfield]

This fall and then you had one in January. But they, they will they least willing to speak again? Victims advocates exist for the reason that they need to speak with you?

[John Ramsey]

Well, yeah. And, and we, we, we found that Chief Redfern has been very willing to meet with us when we've asked. He's had a couple, couple times we've asked and he was out of town, so it didn't work. But no, I. I think he's. He's willing to talk to us whenever we ask. Now, they do have a victims advocate program which we met with very early on. And it was kind of funny because at that time we were the number one suspects. And so we met with the victims advocate person. She said, well, this is. This is really awkward because you're not the victim, you're the suspect. It was kind of a funny meeting.

[Ashley Banfield]

And were they unwilling to do the right kind of job that they are actually paid to do when it came to you because they thought you were suspects?

[John Ramsey]

I. I don't remember. It was so long ago, but we. It was a very brief meeting. Didn't.

[Ashley Banfield]

Maybe you could rekindle that. Maybe you could.

[John Ramsey]

Well, it's possible. Yeah, it's possible.

[Ashley Banfield]

Actually. Maybe pop that in that letter, you know, saying I would personally, as the father of a murder victim in an unsolved crime, would like someone appointed my point person as a victim's advocate so that I can get regular updates.

[John Ramsey]

Yeah, that's. That's probably. That's a good idea.

[Ashley Banfield]

Hey, at least they can do after what they did to you.

[John Ramsey]

I know it. I know it.

[Ashley Banfield]

Well, apologies are all lovely when they're public, but where's. Like, show me the money. If your apology. Yeah. If your apology's sincere for having painted Patsy and you, you know, as the. As the umbrella of suspicion, suspects, and then only walk that all back and apologize, you know, show me the money. Speaking of money, let me ask you something. Did anyone ever say that it is expensive, this process is expensive, and that perhaps the Boulder police don't have this kind of money?

[John Ramsey]

Well, I brought that up to the D. A and the chief of police who we met with. First time we met with him, which guys was over a year ago. And I said, look, if money is an issue, if budget's an issue, we can find the money, we'll get the money. And the DA Said, nope, that is not an issue. It is not a problem.

[Ashley Banfield]

They've said the money is not an issue or we don't want you to.

[John Ramsey]

Well, they said money wasn't an issue. Okay, so we said, fine. Well, then it didn't seem to be.

[Ashley Banfield]

An issue in Idaho. And I mean, come on, county isn't bursting with big taxpayer base. It's got University of Idaho there. But. So it doesn't seem that. That. And. And of course, there's always the avails of the FBI and the federal system. I mean I've never heard money being an issue, but I was going to ask you if it, if it is, if you've ever thought of, of launching a GoFundMe to.

[John Ramsey]

Well, I don't think. Yeah, we say, we said we can, we can get the money. And I had some by then rebuilt. We pretty much got wiped out financially. Most victims of violent crime end up broke. I was told by the FBI, because it's such an expensive. You're traumatized, you're making bad decisions, you're selling the house, you're moving, moving. You're. It's just money goes fast and you make bad decisions.

[Ashley Banfield]

Do you have any idea what your legal bills were? You know, having to fight the. Do you event like have you ever done them?

[John Ramsey]

Well on that it wiped us out basically. And, and you know, it's like if you're going to have heart surgery, you want to be sure you get a good heart surgery. You don't do it on a budget. And. But our attorneys worked for years without getting paid. We after a couple years said guys are out of money. They said don't worry about it.

[Ashley Banfield]

Really.

[John Ramsey]

Yeah. So they remain.

[Ashley Banfield]

And not to be too praying, but I am curious about what that did cost you. Like what did you pay out to try to just fend off the onslaught?

[John Ramsey]

Well, it was all we had basically. And I don't think it'd be fair to the attorneys to say a number, but they, when we first engaged them and they were brought in to our life by a good friend who said, you need an attorney, trust me. So. Okay. And we started getting some pretty hefty bills because they also hired investigators to see, you know, to do their job. And the first couple bills, after the first couple, they were pretty big. They said this is not going to go on. This is ridiculous that we have to do this. Don't worry about it. Well, it went on for two, three years to where we just were out of money. We said, guys, we can't, we can't keep funding this. And they said, don't worry about it. Not, not, not important. They, they, they became very committed to writing a very terrible wrong. And that was the assault that was made on in their eyes. Patsy and I.

[Ashley Banfield]

And you and Patsy lived a really nice lifestyle. Were you able to earn back enough to match that lifestyle again? How did it affect your ability to live in a manner you were accustomed to?

[John Ramsey]

Yeah, well, now we haven't got back to where we were, but we're certainly good enough. You know, I was in the computer Industry in its infancy, and you had to be really stupid to not make reasonable money at that time in the period of the computer industry. And we were lucky. We got involved in some things that worked really well and ended up with more money than I thought I'd ever have. And Patsy and I were discussing, well, maybe we should just take a year off. Let's homeschool the kids and let's travel and. And then, of course, that was not that far before we lost JonBenet, that we were kicking that around as an idea and we were not crazy with our expenses. We could get by okay. And that's kind of where we were in our life style or, you know, situation. And. And so then it all kind of crashed and burned. But through. From friends that helped me get back on my feet with a job. And it was tough. I couldn't get another job easily because I was a very tarnished fellow. We had one friend that said, we'd love to have you come work for our company, but we can't afford to have our good company name on the front of the National Enquirer. I totally understand it.

[Ashley Banfield]

Unemployable?

[John Ramsey]

Pretty much, yeah.

[Ashley Banfield]

You know, I remember for a while, for a period, I remember Casey Anthony's father saying the same thing to me. He said, I lost my job and. And I started trying to get jobs, which was hard enough, and when I finally got one, it was stocking grocery shelves, which was quite a fall from where he had been. And he said, he told me over. Over lunch one day in Orlando before the trial, he said, I was stocking shelves on a night shift when somebody recognized me. I'm not. I can't remember if it was somebody in the staff or whether the store was closed or if it was the public, but he said somebody recognized me. And the next day it was over. The meager job I had stocking grocery store shelves to try to feed what was left of my family. I lost that job, too. And he was. He says the same thing, that that's what everybody told him, even people who loved him said, I can't be associated with this.

[John Ramsey]

Yeah, no, and I. I understood that totally. So. But that fortunately we were able to get back with a paycheck coming in and. And.

[Ashley Banfield]

It black some semblance of. Of life the way it was, although it never, ever would be.

[John Ramsey]

No, no. It was a fraction of what it was, Shawn.

[Ashley Banfield]

We're all taught to, you know, face adversity in your life. You're all, you know, you're always going to face Adversity, and it's how you meet it. But, my God, do you ever wonder how you've survived this?

[John Ramsey]

Well, I think, you know, I lost Beth, my oldest daughter. I was a worrier. I'd worry about lots of things, you know, things I shouldn't worry about, but I did. I never worried about losing a child.

[Ashley Banfield]

And. And that was before JonBenet.

[John Ramsey]

Yeah, that was a few years before. And it. It really knocked me down totally. I was just devastated. Beth was 22 years old and just gotten out of college, started a new job and was killed in a car accident. And it took me years to be able to track going, and I was still working, but if I was on an airplane by myself, I'd. I'd start to cry. Just by myself? Yeah, because it was just so heavy. But it really caused me to address my faith, which, frankly, was fairly weak back then. And, you know, why does God let this happen to a wonderful, innocent child? And friend of mine took me aside, who I'd known as a business associate for several years, and said, look, I want to. I want to help you study the Bible. And he said, we're going to meet once a week, and the first week we're going to read the first paragraph of. And I forget which. Which book he was in. I said I could read the whole book in 20 minutes. How could you know? Or the whole. The whole chapter in 20 minutes. Why just the first paragraph? Well, it really taught me how to dig into it. And over a period of a few years, a couple years, my intellectual faith kind of moved to my heart. And so I had that base that there's more life than what we see. There is God, there is a heaven. Beth's in heaven. I'm confident of that. So when I lost John Bday, I had that foundation, which helped a lot.

[Ashley Banfield]

Did the church help? I'm wondering what it was like in the congregation because, again, everybody was reading the same papers and looking.

[John Ramsey]

Yeah.

[Ashley Banfield]

At you and Patsy. What was the congregation like?

[John Ramsey]

Well, we had a. We had a. They were fine. They were wonderful. And, you know, that's the other thing that was interesting. Early on, people say, how is it to be out in public? I said, it's wonderful. People are so kind to us and apologetic for what's being said to us. So people. And these are people we didn't necessarily know that would stop us in the street. And we. Early on, we were traveling back to Atlanta from Denver, and I had my cheap coach tickets, and the ticket agent was clicking away on his computer and Handed me two first class boarding passes and said, this is because I believe in you. Oh, wow. And this was early on.

[Ashley Banfield]

And so you found public support even when the police were putting out those headlines and the headlines were pointing to you and vilifying you, you found the people weren't buying into it, right?

[John Ramsey]

Absolutely. We were just overwhelmed by kindness. And it really made me a more compassionate person. The other thing I learned, which I guess I was just not paying attention to, were people around me had their own burdens to carry. I had one friend I'd worked with for several years. Oh, yeah, I lost a child. And I thought, oh, my God, I didn't know that. And so it made me realize that we all. Life's not easy and we all carry a burden of some sort. Some of them are pretty.

[Ashley Banfield]

I don't know anybody.

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[Ashley Banfield]

Who's carried yours? You know, the business I'm in. I mean, like, I meet a lot of people who obviously are in the worst circumstance of a potential life on earth. And yeah, I've never met anybody who's had the boots taken to them like you have. And that's why I just sort of ask him. And maybe your answer has helped me that if it hadn't been for the foundation of your faith going into this terrible tragedy with JonBenet, maybe you might not have managed the way you have.

[John Ramsey]

I think that's probably right. You know, Packy said it well, when we didn't pay much attention to these, the headlines that were just so, so accusatory she said, you can't hurt me anymore than I've been hurt by the loss of my child. That doesn't matter. That's minor stuff compared to my hurt from losing my child. And that's kind of how we felt. And in a way it was a diversion from grieving because we had to figure out how to get Burke to school. And there's cameras and satellite trucks parked out in front of the house we're staying in. How do we get him to school? Out being. We were, we were frightened. You know, who did this to our family? We wanted to protect Burke, who at the time was nine years old.

[Ashley Banfield]

Was he in fourth grade?

[John Ramsey]

I'm thinking he was fourth. Yeah, I think that's right.

[Ashley Banfield]

How was that? I bet nobody even talks about that. But how was. How was it with you and Patsy and his school and the classmates? Like what did you do? Well, they were great of normalcy.

[John Ramsey]

The parents in Burke's class formed a Burke watch and they got a little, you know, like alarm that they could call the police just by pushing a button. And they were. There's a parent in the classroom every day all day long. And they volunteered. And they did try it once. I had to try it. Japanese TV film crew invaded the. The school and they, you know, called for the police. Police never came.

[Ashley Banfield]

Police never came?

[John Ramsey]

No. But that was the only time they had to alarm.

[Ashley Banfield]

Well, do you think that the alarm didn't work or do you think that the police didn't care? I can't imagine they wouldn't care.

[John Ramsey]

No, I. I don't think it was. They didn't care. I. We've had. We had another case where we were being chased by a reporter in our car and we pulled into the. To a drive through bank and said to tell her, would you please call the police, tell them we're being aggressively pursued by this car behind us. And they did and the police showed up and that was the end of that. So I. Maybe the alarm didn't work, I don't know. But the key is that the parents in Bert's class cared enough to spend their time on the Burke watch duty. And that went on for months. That's.

[Ashley Banfield]

I've never heard that. That's remarkable.

[John Ramsey]

Yeah, it is. No, people were wonderful to us. They really were. And I don't. I don't know of any instance where we were yelled at or, or harassed. Harassed at all.

[Ashley Banfield]

Yeah, well, I go back to think, God, John, there wasn't social media. I just.

[John Ramsey]

Yeah, I know that that would really stir up people for sure.

[Ashley Banfield]

By the way, I know that the. That the crime against JonBenet was three decades ago, but. But trolls find their targets no matter what. Have you been targeted by trolls now who are looking back at the cold case and deciding it's still you? Have you had any of that?

[John Ramsey]

Not. No. No, we haven't had that in a long time. Early on we did. In fact, I got a letter from somebody in New York and it was very accusatory. And if you ever come to New York, I'm going to find you and I'm going to kill you. And. And I wrote him back and said, congratulations. You've written the most. The. The strongest accusation letter I've received so far. Congratulations.

[Ashley Banfield]

Did. Did you turn it over to the police? Because that is. That death threat is a felony.

[John Ramsey]

I know. They were not paying any attention to anything we were doing early on. You know, one of the leads, one of the real interesting leads we got actually came from the DA's office. This is early on. And he called our attorneys who had. We had two private detectives working for the attorneys now. And he said, I got this lead. It's pretty interesting. I don't think the police will follow up on it. Would you have your investigators follow up on it? And they did.

[Ashley Banfield]

The D. A is asking you to have your investigators follow a lead that the D A received because the DA.

[John Ramsey]

Didn'T think the police would follow up on it. He knew their mindset was.

[Ashley Banfield]

Got it. Well, that's nice to know. That's early on, too.

[John Ramsey]

Oh, it's very early on.

[Ashley Banfield]

Did the lead pano.

[John Ramsey]

Well, it was very. It was a very interesting lead. And when our attorneys described the circumstantial information that was given to us, I said, that's the guy. They said, whoa, slow down. Don't do a Boulder police on us. We don't know that yet. I thought, yeah, you're right. We don't. It's very easy to rush to judgment. I can give you four or five circumstantial people that we got information on. You'd say, my God, that's got to be the person. But it doesn't pan out. The DNA doesn't match or, you know, but it's convincing. Well, it caught. Taught me that to be a detective, it takes a really strong smart guy with the ability to. To focus on evidence. And that's what Luke Smith. And be discerning. That's the piece that was missing. Discerning and common sense. It just didn't exist.

[Ashley Banfield]

Exactly. You know, but Every time I think of your case, and it is often, I just keep thinking this is. We are not living in the era of Jack the Ripper. I get why those crimes aren't solved. We are living in a different era and there is plenty of evidence. And so I truly believe, and I think you do, too, that this crime will be solved.

[John Ramsey]

I think if we employ IGG technology, there's a 70% chance we'll get an answer, maybe higher.

[Ashley Banfield]

Why do you. Why do you get. Why do you end on 70?

[John Ramsey]

I don't know. I just. I. I don't want to say for sure because there may be. I mean, it's still a search technology, investigative technology, that tool you use, and it's possible it could come up to a dead end. I don't know. But I think it's the most powerful tool we have to solve this case, and I think there's a high probability it could be solved.

[Ashley Banfield]

I. I agree. Tell me a little bit about again at CrimeCon. I must have missed this. I think I was on the other end of the convention center, but Gary Oliva wanted to now and remind our viewers Gary was a suspect early on, a registered sex offender in the area. I think they had questioned him and considered him, but in the end didn't. Didn't pursue him as a suspect. Correct. And he wanted to find you. First of all, take me back to who Gary Oliva is. And then.

[John Ramsey]

Well, that was. That was the lead we got from the DA early on that I mentioned earlier.

[Ashley Banfield]

That was the Gary lead.

[John Ramsey]

Yeah. And I don't. I mean it all. It always gets down to, is there a DNA match? And I presume his DNA was taken and there was no match. But that's as far as it went. As far as I know.

[Ashley Banfield]

Did. Did they never make an announcement and say, he's cleared, he's not under an umbrella of suspicion to ever do anything like that?

[John Ramsey]

I don't think so, to my knowledge, no.

[Ashley Banfield]

So he wasn't named, it wasn't cleared as a suspect?

[John Ramsey]

He wasn't. Not to my knowledge.

[Ashley Banfield]

He confessed, right? In letters.

[John Ramsey]

No, no, no. That was John Mark Carr.

[Ashley Banfield]

I knew about John Mark Carr, but Gary Oliva never made any confessions.

[John Ramsey]

Well, he. The information we got, and I saw this on television, he called a friend of his that night, early in the morning of the 26th, said, I've just hurt a little girl. And then his friend, you know, a day later saw this, and he was in Boulder. Gary Leva was. And so his friend called the police and said, hey, this guy no called me and said he just heard a little girl. That was before there's any. Anything public on JonBenet's murder. I saw him, interviewed the friend, not. Not that long ago, and he seemed like a pretty solid citizen. And so you think, well, what in the world took place? Why did. Why did that call happen? Why did he say that to. To this friend? So it's.

[Ashley Banfield]

Well, I mean, listen, none of us, we don't understand why some of these people do what they do, like John Mark are coming out and loving the attention of it all. Such a horrendous deed. And it was proven. It was not his DNA at the crime scene. But he. But Gary Oliva wanted to meet you at CrimeCon. What happened there?

[John Ramsey]

Well, he said he wanted to meet through a person that was also in Crime Con and said he wanted to apologize to you. And I said, what's he gonna apologize for? Murdering my daughter? I don't know what else he could apologize for. No, he just want to apologize for the trouble you've been through. And I didn't have any interest meeting him. He was a convicted sex offender, child predator, felon. So, no, I didn't meet with him, but there was. It was unusual, I thought.

[Ashley Banfield]

Yeah. Did he. You know how CrimeCon works. It's pretty open. You, you know, you have meet and greets, you have autograph times, and I know that sounds odd for maybe anybody watching right now or listening right now who doesn't. Hasn't had an experience at CrimeCon, but, you know, the. The people who want to meet you and get your autograph or get a photograph with you are supporters.

[John Ramsey]

They.

[Ashley Banfield]

They love you.

[John Ramsey]

Oh, yeah.

[Ashley Banfield]

They want the opportunity to hug you and, and oh, yeah, I got more.

[John Ramsey]

Hugs that you could count. It was wonderful. People were so gracious to us.

[Ashley Banfield]

They really are at crimecon. It really is. I. For lack of a better description of love fest. I mean.

[John Ramsey]

Yeah, no, I. I went to the first one three years ago. A friend and Paula Woodward, who had written a book on our case, and she's an investigative reporter that followed our case for years. And, and she was invited to go and she asked me if I would go with her. And I said, yeah, okay. I had no idea what Crime Con was, but I thought I wanted to help Paula. And so I went and we were. I was just overwhelmed by the support and the encouragement, and it really re. Energized me to keep fighting.

[Ashley Banfield]

Yeah, I've heard this from you first and then from others like Joe Petito as well. That this is a place where you find your. You live in a world that there's no manual for living. Right. And no one ever tells you how life is to be lived once you go through what you've been through. And here are these people to say, whatever it takes, we're here for you and we love you and what an incredibly special place.

[John Ramsey]

No, and that's, say, from day almost, day one. That's been our experience with people. They've been wonderful to us and supportive and apologetic for what had been done to us by the police and the media. So we were. It was wonderful. One of my favorite stories was Patsy was downtown Atlanta, crazy traffic, waiting to cross the street. She'd been to visit a friend at a hospital. This yellow cab screeches to a halt. This big guy gets out. Traffic stops. Are you Patsy Ramsey said, yeah. I just want to give you a hug. I'm so sorry. He gave her a big hug, got back in his cab and kept going.

[Ashley Banfield]

When was that?

[John Ramsey]

Oh, gosh, this was years ago. 40. Well, let's see, it'd been probably early 2000s.

[Ashley Banfield]

I suppose enough time had passed since the. The murder.

[John Ramsey]

Yeah.

[Ashley Banfield]

That he'd been. He'd lived through all the headlines he'd seen.

[John Ramsey]

Right. Oh, yeah.

[Ashley Banfield]

But hadn't seen the apology yet, right?

[John Ramsey]

No, no, definitely that.

[Ashley Banfield]

I think what. The apology came in 2005. Six or seven. I know because I was pregnant with my two boys in those three years, and I know it was at that time.

[John Ramsey]

Yeah, no, that was way before that. But, you know, people are not stupid. They. Most people have a good level of common sense and intuition and, you know, you. They knew we were getting a raw deal and, you know, when the couple in England lost their daughter to a kidnapper. Forget their names. Anyway, when I saw them being interviewed and two doctors. There's no way they harmed their child or did something horrible.

[Ashley Banfield]

Are you saying. Are you thinking of the Madeleine McCann?

[John Ramsey]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Ashley Banfield]

Parents. Yeah. The Madeline McCann parents also went through a little bit. Bit of what you went.

[John Ramsey]

They did. They were. They were focused on. And, you know, I've told people.

[Ashley Banfield]

Did you reach out to them, John?

[John Ramsey]

No, I never did, but I. I could. I mean, my just my common sense, human perception was that they didn't. They're not guilty of that. Good Lord.

[Ashley Banfield]

Takes a certain kind of mind to go there, though. And there are plenty of them that do that.

[John Ramsey]

Well, yeah, no, I know. And. But did.

[Ashley Banfield]

Did.

[John Ramsey]

Oh, people were wonderful to us.

[Ashley Banfield]

Did Gary Oliva try to find you at one of your panels? Or at the. Because those were very public and they were announced and there were meeting times and did he try to find you and was he fended off?

[John Ramsey]

No, he didn't, to my knowledge. I just knew he was there, but didn't.

[Ashley Banfield]

Well, I didn't make. I was just gonna say I'm glad that you didn't face that spectacle.

[John Ramsey]

Yeah. It would serve no purpose. And he's, he's a, not a, not a nice guy. He's got somebody I want to have a drink with.

[Ashley Banfield]

Well. And he has no business inserting himself into your, your troubles and your struggles, which, you know, are ongoing. Anything I've missed that, that I have. That I don't know to ask you about that I haven't, that I haven't found out anything that is new.

[John Ramsey]

No, no, that's where we are today. You know, I, I semi jokingly said I need to get Trump involved. He tends to stir things up and he voiced an opinion on Cracker Barrel event. Maybe this is more important. I, and I thought, yeah, maybe I should write him a letter because Lynn Wood, who was our defamation attorney for years, got involved in the 2020 deal, lost his law. Law license because of his effort or rightly or wrongly to claim that the election was rigged on behalf of Trump. I mean, it was definitely a strong Trump supporter. So I don't know.

[Ashley Banfield]

But are you going to reach out, are you going to reach out to President Trump to see if there's something he can.

[John Ramsey]

Well, I don't.

[Ashley Banfield]

He can put on the case only.

[John Ramsey]

If I thought there could be, that would help, and I don't know that yet. What would I ask him to do?

[Ashley Banfield]

But the pressure on the FBI to step things up.

[John Ramsey]

Well, the FBI has always been eager, as far as I know, to get involved this case.

[Ashley Banfield]

Still getting the, the Heisman from the Boulder police, that can't be possible.

[John Ramsey]

I think there's been some opening, not a huge amount, but the FBI had, and I heard this from the chief of police as well, spent thousands of man hours putting together the case file for the police prior to this cold case review that was finally instituted after we petitioned the governor. So they've been involved and I think could do more. Well, I think. But I don't know what they're doing.

[Ashley Banfield]

You think about what can President Trump add to the mix? Well, we've already talked about the fact that the DA wants to run for governor, and we know what the president can do for or against someone who he doesn't think is doing his bidding. So there's one area. He also has quite a bit of influence over the FBI and Cash Patel, that's for sure as well.

[John Ramsey]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ashley Banfield]

So is this, is this an area you think you might mine?

[John Ramsey]

Possibly. I don't think. I think the FBA FBI is ready, willing and able to do a lot, but they have to be asked and invited by the police to do it. And up until recently they, they won't let them do anything is my understanding.

[Ashley Banfield]

And that's Governor. The governor of Colorado isn't helpful?

[John Ramsey]

No, not really. We wrote, you know, we had that petition that, that was started in CrimeCon three years ago and I was shocked that we got, we now have 55, 000 signatures on that petition for the governor to intervene, get the DNA testing done properly and so forth. And we sent him a letter two, two and a half years ago after we had these wonderful number of signatures and he kind of ignored it and so we published the letter and then he responded and referred us to his director of public safety who at the time I'm told was a good guy. And I sent him another email. I don't know. A month later the governor and said, well, you've been blocked by the recipient. So his staff apparently blocked my email. So I couldn't.

[Ashley Banfield]

Governor blocked your email?

[John Ramsey]

Yeah, that's the message I got when I went to send him another email a month later. And I, that got out in the media and he and the, his staff said, oh no, we didn't block him. Well, baloney. They, they did.

[Ashley Banfield]

I must have missed that headline. You said that did make headlines. I didn't see that.

[John Ramsey]

Well, it wasn't headlines, but it, it, he was, it came out at some level, maybe in the Denver area, I don't know. And his staff. Oh no, we didn't, we didn't block Mr. Ramsey's email. Well, according to the message I got back, you have been blocked by the recipient. This message cannot be delivered.

[Ashley Banfield]

So did you try, did you try delivering another message to see if you were unblocked?

[John Ramsey]

Good point. No, I did not.

[Ashley Banfield]

You should try. I'd like to see that.

[John Ramsey]

That's a, that's a great idea. I will try to.

[Ashley Banfield]

That is heartless.

[John Ramsey]

Yeah, well it, you know, what we found was the politicians in, in Colorado were, they didn't want to touch our case. They want to get involved. They didn't want to because it was, it was such a firestorm around it. You know, politicians, they exist to get re elected or run for the next highest office. Usually few of them are there to really do a good job and do it right. But I know that the governor came out, this was before the governor at the time of John Monet's murder came out and had some, you know, the Ramseys need to come back and help us solve this case and quit hiding behind their lawyers and. Which was not at all what we were doing. But his press agent told our attorneys, well his ratings went up after he made that speech.

[Ashley Banfield]

And yet all the people out in the public were so nice to you. It doesn't make any sense. Seems.

[John Ramsey]

Oh yeah, no, I know it, it, nothing computed but it, it, it's. We don't. We. Well, we felt along that the public was very supportive and apologetic to us for what had been done and, but you know, who was it? Gallup did a poll fairly early on in this process at mass and 70% of those polled felt that the family, the parents were guilty. And this was probably within a year or two of it happening. And so the media had been very effective in convincing people that we were guilty and yet we were so kindly treated in, in real life. So it didn't make sense. I know, doesn't compute. But.

[Ashley Banfield]

Well, stay, you know, John, stay on the effort. Nobody will fight like you will, you know, no one will.

[John Ramsey]

I know.

[Ashley Banfield]

For your case to be resolved like you will. We are all our own medical advocates and we're all our own legal advocates, it seems.

[John Ramsey]

Good point.

[Ashley Banfield]

If we're not at the helm of our own cases and if there's anything we can do, you know, I'm always speed dial for you.

[John Ramsey]

Well, thanks Ashley. You've always been very kind and we appreciate the attention you give our case.

[Ashley Banfield]

My great thanks to John Ramsey for joining me and for continuing to push for accountability after all these years and to push for the crime fighting efforts to continue in as robust a fashion as they were from day one. I really do believe it when I say it. I think JonBenet's crime is going to be solved. I think that killer is shaking in his boots and I think those boots are being followed by gumshoe detectives who will catch him and will find him and hopefully bring him to justice. I'm Ashley Banfield and remember, the truth isn't just serious, it's drop dead serious.

[John Ramsey]

Foreign.

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[Ashley Banfield]

Hi, I'm Kristen Bell, and if you know my husband Dax, then you also know he loves shopping for a car. Selling a car? Not so much.

[John Ramsey]

We're really doing this, huh?

[Ashley Banfield]

Thankfully, Carvana makes it easy. Answer a few questions, put in your van or license, and done. We sold ours in minutes this morning and they'll come pick it up and pay us this afternoon.

[John Ramsey]

Bye bye Truckee.

[Ashley Banfield]

Of course, we kept the favorite.

[John Ramsey]

Hello other Truckee.

[Ashley Banfield]

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