Dr. Laura Petler (2:37)

Way different.

Ashley Banfield (2:39)

This is our very first, and I'm not going to lie, horrifying. Look at how Spencer and Monique Tepe were murdered inside their own home, inside their bedroom, just feet away from their two little children. The details are just. Well, listen, they're brutal, but they are so informative. They tell us so much about what happened and the anger, this seething anger that this killer had. This wasn't a couple of shots, guys. This was not Spencer. Spencer Tepe was shot seven times. Not just a couple, remember they said several, several times in Monique. Once to the chest. Not even close. He was shot seven times. He was shot in the head, the torso, the chest, his extremities. I have details on all of those shots and what many of them mean. The details of each of them is so illuminating, but it is also very sad because these shots tell a story. I'm going to walk you through them all and a couple of thoughts as to how they were delivered and from where and what he might have been doing. And then even more kind of breathtakingly sad is how long it took him to die. When it comes to Monique, remember they told us she was shot in the chest. Much worse and much worse than Spencer. This is even more tragic, you guys. She was shot nine times. Not once to the chest like we were told. Nine times. If you do the math, nine shots to Monique. I'll tell you in a moment where she was shot and how informative those injuries are. And seven shots to Spencer. That's 16 gunshots total. Now, some of you may be gun enthusiasts, some of you may not know anything about clips and magazines and 9 millimeters or any of that stuff, but they do have a gun that they seized from Dr. Michael McKee's home in Chicago. And they said the weapon is associated with the murders. We also know that there were three 9 millimeter shell casings that were found at the murder scene. There were 16 total shots. That means 13 shell casings were taken out. But there's more than that. And listen, I've got a million theories about that. If you're firing in the nighttime and it's dark, or maybe it's not dark, maybe the lights are on, but you're firing and there's death and there frenzy and blood and you got to get out of there, maybe you'll collect what you could find. You found 13, you didn't find three. Maybe those ended up in the bedding or under the bed or Somewhere where he couldn't see or she, whoever the killer is. But the alleged killer is Monique Tepe's ex husband, Dr. Michael McKee, vascular surgeon practicing just outside of Chicago. So, yeah, there were 16 shots. I can also tell you that I got a nine millimeter weapon has a clip that holds 15. There were 16 shots. One in the chamber, one in the chamber, 15 in the mag.

Dr. Laura Petler (5:50)

There you go.

Ashley Banfield (5:51)

16. So you can do this with just one gun? Nine millimeter gun with that kind of magazine. 16 shots. Okay, so back to Monique. Monique was shot in the chest, in the torso. She was also shot in her arms. And the saddest, most disturbing detail is that Monique Tepe, beautiful Monique Tepe, brand new, mom of a 17 month old and a 4 year old. She was shot in the face. Monique Tepe was shot in the face. I'll tell you exactly where in a moment. But I also have information on how long it took Monique to. To die. I've also got the toxicology results, including what Spencer and Monique Tepe were and were not taking. And why. One of those details and findings is just so incredibly telling about the circumstance that they were living in. And fortunately, I have one of the best forensic criminologists in America today joining me on this episode. She is way smarter than I am at this stuff, as she puts it. She speaks blood fluently and her ability to lay out the wound pattern analysis in that Tepe bedroom is exquisite. Her name is Dr. Laura Pettler. And trust me, you're gonna want to hear everything that she has to say. She is smart like this and has Dr. In front of her name because she has made it her mission to study her entire life. Here is my conversation, and it is a good one. Pour yourself a long, stiff drink, y'. All. This is forensic criminologist Dr. Laura Petler. So let's talk about these findings. Dr. Petler. First of all, my breath was taken away. I did not expect to see this.

Dr. Laura Petler (7:35)

No. You know, the autopsy report, I only have the one for Spencer. So that's what I've been reviewing earlier today. And it is very graphic, it is very disturbing, but it's also very telling of the story of what happened in that room. And wound pattern analysis is critically important within the scope of the process of analyzing the evidence in totality. So it's important that we take it as one piece of, like a pie or a puzzle, and we analyze this one piece and then we plug it back into the victimology and compare and contrast it from there. So that's kind of where I'm at with it at this point.

Ashley Banfield (8:26)

Well, what surprised me was that the original reports were that Monique was shot in the chest and Spencer was shot multiple times. And that is a very different story than what these findings show.

Dr. Laura Petler (8:42)

Right. And one thing that I always say is that as a person who has been doing this for many, many years, working with law enforcement, as a district attorney's investigator and as a deputy coroner, what the media is told or what has been released to the media or what. What's going on in the public is very different always than what is going on actually inside the investigation. And that's just this, this situation that was the first thing I thought of as soon as I, I read this information was that same thing. We got that she was shot once, he was shot three times. At that point, when I was analyzing the material, then I said that he appears to be the target. If that's the situation, if he has, you know, more violence inflicted onto him, he appears to be the target. And I, I did think it was a bit odd that she was only. That she only was reportedly having one gunshot wound. But at the same time, if he perceived, if the shooter perceived Spencer as the real problem that like stole his wife or something like that, I could understand it from that standpoint too.

Ashley Banfield (10:06)

Or as we discussed in our other episode, which was, you know, a really disturbing conversation, but critical, sometimes people want to mentally torture their. By hurting the ex's new love. And so it wouldn't have been off base to think that the killer killed Spencer in front of Monique to hurt her before he killed Monique.

Dr. Laura Petler (10:31)

Right. That was definitely something we could have considered in the beginning when we had more of the prelim information. The wound pattern analysis at this point for me is so aggressive. It's so much like it explains, exceeds what's necessary to kill them both. And not just one person, but two people. This is a dumping of extreme rage in a very instrumental, organized, sophisticated, structured way that is for the purpose of pain and this cathartic way of like releasing emotion, anxiety, perceived wrong stuff like that.

Ashley Banfield (11:18)

So I'm going to get to the details and go wound by wound and where everything happened. And some of them are so upsetting. I mean, the one to the face, just all of that. I'm going to get to that in a moment. But I do want to touch on the fact that originally we were told there were only three shell casings were covered. Not if there were 15, sorry, 16 gunshots. So what is your assessment of that story? Three reported casings found 16 shots.

Dr. Laura Petler (11:46)

One of the first things I thought of was the type of firearm, you know, that was used. And is there an element of having to reload, you know, like in the middle, or are there two firearms, you know, involved? Was the magazine, a large magazine that could hold that many bullets, that kind of thing? Because that is, that is a really specific question whether or not, I don't know if that information has been reported, but that would be huge to know if, if the, if the offender in this case had to stop after, after shooting one person and, and reload, or is it, is it going back and forth like this tennis match kind of thing, based on the positioning? I don't think so. And we can, we'll get to that as we go through.

Ashley Banfield (12:46)

And, and silencer suppression, you know, device, either there's two silencers, if there's more weapons, but it sounds to me when you've got a suppression device, it's probably one weapon.

Dr. Laura Petler (12:55)

You know, that's, that goes to the sophistication of this and to the organized planning aspects of this. You know, this is not like some frenzied attack. This is an organized, structured attack where the offender. And again, we'll get to this, but it's, it's very important to recognize that he can control his position. Right. And, and I'm saying his. Because there's been a suspect charged in this case, states alleging that it was

Ashley Banfield (13:25)

Michael, but the killer, the killer, whoever the killer is, could control the position.

Dr. Laura Petler (13:29)

Control the position. And, and that's what we're seeing in this wound pattern analysis. Yeah,

Ashley Banfield (13:37)

so I'm just gonna say it. I've got a nine millimeter and we've got magazine that holds 15 and one in the chamber. There you go, 15 in the mag, one in the chamber. There's 16 bullets.

Dr. Laura Petler (13:48)

That's what I'm saying. Like, is it that type of a weapon that can hold that many and like to your point, you know, does sound like one firearm because we know that there was some type of a silencer involved. But I always keep everything, options open and alternatives because, you know, on this side where we're not working the case, you know, we're analyzing the case and what's been reported. It's, you know, I, I don't ever want to paint anybody into a corner, including myself or, or any viewers and mislead people. So it's, it's very, very important to always keep the idea open ended at this point. Point.

Ashley Banfield (14:30)

Yeah, yeah, without question. And listen, we were astounded many times. We've been astounded, particularly in Idaho, when suddenly we found what there was a sheath left behind that came out later. And so suddenly everything changed, you know, and so we always keep ourselves open to the possibility that there is, you know, a right turn coming, you know, but they, you know, the specifics of how they said a weapon that was associated with the murders. They didn't say the weapon, you know, so there's always an option there. Okay, let's, let's do the wound pattern analysis here because again, forensics tell the story of the crime better than anyone else. Can I often say dead men do tell tales from what is left behind. And I feel like this story of the autopsy findings and I do, I do have the, the summary of Monique. But let's start with Spencer. Okay? Because you've got the autopsy of Spencer in front of you. Seven gunshot wounds. So let's just start there because it wasn't just multiple, it was seven.

Dr. Laura Petler (15:39)

Right the way. So as a forensic criminologist, I of course don't render any kind of medical opinion, but my, my job in the process of crime scene to courtroom is to serve as an analyst to where the forensic pathologist, when we do have somebody sitting at the round table analyzing this and they're explaining the medical aspects. My job is to explain the emotional, the cognitive and the behavioral aspects of this and how it ties into the victimology and how it compares back to what we know about Monique, what we know about Spencer and you know, what, what they're, what they might have been doing.

Ashley Banfield (16:27)

So, so let's start with the head. Spencer was shot once in the head and the report is, is that one bullet traveled through his.

Dr. Laura Petler (16:42)

Yes. And so I'm looking at seven gunshot wounds of total head, neck, trunk, extremities. And one thing that I noticed about this Ashley, is that everything is to the left side of his body. And that's of course consistent with a right handed shooter. You know, like that is most consistent and that's based on seeing so many of these and turn, you know, turning sideways almost kind of.

Ashley Banfield (17:16)

Yes. Perpendicular.

Dr. Laura Petler (17:17)

But then some of the shapes that they're describing in here, you know, some of them are round and some of them are regular and some of them are round defect. Round defect. And so that's giving you more of a perpendicular. Yes. Straight on the ovoid, Right. Straight up straight. Gunshot wound number two is. Oh, ovoid. So you know, or do we have this twisting motion, you know, so that you've got damage to the ear, then damage to the Neck, behind the ear, and then you've got in the chest and then. And this is like rapid fire, you know, because you'd have the person.

Ashley Banfield (17:59)

So that's interesting. It tells me that the possibility is, is that the shooter was aiming for Spencer's face straight on. And as Spencer turned, he ended up being slightly shot, slightly grazed through that ear and out the neck. But that would be, the aim would not be I think I want to take you out at the ear. It would be I want to get you in the face.

Dr. Laura Petler (18:20)

Right. And you know, yes, it could be directly to the face. And a lot of these anger retaliatory type offenders, of course, you know, they're going for the face, they're going for the neck, the chest, you know, anything. Because like they're. The wounds are not on the big toe, not in the knee. Right. And so like where the wounds are is just as important as where the wounds are not so.

Ashley Banfield (18:47)

Well, guess what? Especially since the, the alleged killer is a vascular surgeon and knows exactly where the kill shots are best.

Dr. Laura Petler (18:57)

Complete reflection of what I call geno enviro socioculturalism and that is my made up word literally for the aggregate of how the offenders, environment, education, institutions, traditions, customs, belief system, value, hobbies, influence the, the emotionality, the cognition and the behavior the offender. And we're seeing a reflection of I know how to. Where I have to shoot someone in order to kill them.

Ashley Banfield (19:41)

So that's the headshot one. Headshot. There's also three torso shots and they are broken into two of them to the chest and one of them to the back. What are you seeing in the actual, in information about those shots?

Dr. Laura Petler (19:59)

So gunshot wound two is to the, this part of the neck. You know, it be kind of like then you have the ear and then you have like the back of the neck and then you have the upper left, left upper lateral chest. So you know, that's this area in general. And then you have the lower, and then you have the lower, the front of the chest. So there again it's, it's an element to me of potentially turning. And these are also, they're described as round defects. So the round defects is, you know, is it straight? Yes, straight. Straight on again. So let me flip the page.

Ashley Banfield (20:43)

Here are all those ones are all the torso shots the, the two to the chest, one to the back. Are those all round three and four or are deflected three and four around

Dr. Laura Petler (20:54)

number three and four. Round number two is ovoid to the neck. You know, so it's a. And it Has a dark brown marginal abrasion, which is a different type of marginal abrasion. That's the kind of the ring around the. The wound. And so sometimes you'll see it described in autopsy reports, like as they'll kind of measure it and then they'll explain how. What it looks like. So, for example, like, they may be talking about distance, you know, so like, is it an area of the body that is covered with clothing to where when the projectile goes through the intermediary target. So like, you know, on my shirt, it would go through. Okay here and then go through another shirt and then go into the skin. It's hitting different things. And so it changes what the abrasion collar looks like a lot of times. And so they can infer distance sometimes.

Ashley Banfield (21:56)

Well, we read in the report that he was found wearing just shorts, which could be boxer shorts, could be athletic shorts, could be anything, and nothing else but his wedding ring. So it appears from the autopsy report that he did not have any clothing on his torso. So what would that tell you about that ring?

Dr. Laura Petler (22:17)

I couldn't make it. I couldn't draw an opinion beyond that, Ashley, because that would cross into the medical side of it, and I couldn't. I couldn't infer anything. Yeah.

Ashley Banfield (22:28)

Doesn't tell you that it's close range, though, or far range when there's that kind of color.

Dr. Laura Petler (22:31)

Experience with forensic pathologists have, has been that they all define their range a little differently. So sometimes they'll define something that was close, close range, then intermediate range, then distant range. And there's. There's just a general guideline in forensic pathology that we use as reconstructionists for it. But at the same time, I am always very careful to. I always make sure that I ask the forensic pathologist in this case, you know, I would specifically ask them to say when we take the mannequin in there, for the mannequin to be. For all the wounds to go back on the mannequin or the styrofoam head or whatever apparatus we're using to demonstrate the. The wound paths through the body. I always ask them to define what they consider is close range, you know, contact, close, intermediate, and distance. So it's important that we always get those definitions from that, from the specific pathologist that does the autopsy report.

Ashley Banfield (23:34)

So I'm so glad you said that because when I get to Monique Tepe, there is a report that she was shot at close range. So I'm going to get to that in a moment. I want to finish up with, with Spencer, the Back shot in the back. I am curious if that is the continuation of the rotation, maybe trying to get away from the shots or if it's possible that by the time Spencer was down, there was an execution shot to the back or. Does anybody ever do that? Do they. Do they do an execution shot to the back or do they do the last shot to the head?

Dr. Laura Petler (24:07)

They definitely do this final shoot them from behind kind of a thing. This whole, you know, turning motion. And it's, it's showing that the position there, there could be a lot of movement going on between the shooter and the victim in this case. And it also says there's no visible fouling or stippling. So that's telling me that it could be farther away. And as you mentioned, Spencer's not wearing a shirt, so there's not an intermediate target that it's gone through any kind of substance or substrate, you know, before it hit the skin. So generally speaking, it's consistent with. For me, at this point reading this, it's consistent with turning all the way around, you know, moving. And then it's also round defect. So all the way around.

Ashley Banfield (25:06)

All the way around or down on the ground. And someone standing over him could be

Dr. Laura Petler (25:10)

down on the ground, but standing, it's, you know, that's hard to say, Ashley, because we don't know the kind of position that he could been in. Right. So, like, the fact that it's round just means that the project. Yes, straight on. So, like, we really can't infer his position.

Ashley Banfield (25:31)

You can't tell if he's standing. You can't tell if he's lying down when he gets that final shot.

Dr. Laura Petler (25:35)

Right, right. We really can't tell that at this point because, you know, like, people don't really open themselves up very much when they're being attacked like that. They. They were more likely to like, crouch down. So, like, I'm trying to kind of demonstrate what I, what I'm saying seeing in here. And I, I think that, You know, it's at the one to five o' clock aspect and it's 12 and a half inches from the top of the head. So they, they measure it from the top here down to the posterior midline, which is the center of the back. And no stippling, which means it's a little bit further away.

Ashley Banfield (26:15)

So let's talk about the extremities. He was shot once in his left hand and once in the right upper arm. And all I can imagine is somebody who says no and does this no, and then you're getting. If you're aiming for the face or the head, then you're getting a shot. You know, let's see, it's the. It's the left hand. You're getting the shot here and the arm there. Is that what you would picture?

Dr. Laura Petler (26:44)

Yes, absolutely. And we see that a lot of times in these types of cases that, where, you know, one of the questions that I always ask a forensic pathologist is, can the victim make purposeful movement? And that's really, really important is what shot is fatal? You know what I mean? Like, you always have to identify, is the ear shot fatal? Is the neck shot fatal? Is the chest wound fatal? You've got blood pressure issues going on. You've got chemical issues happening in the body. There's all kinds of things going on from a biological standpoint that you have to ask that medical professional who specializes specifically in unnatural violent death. That's a very different type of death than hospital pathology. So asking that question is the number one question I would be asking this pathologist right now. Could Spencer Tepe have made purposeful movement after the shot? And which shot? We have the wound to the hand. That's not going to be fatal. So the wound to the upper back, the wound to, you know, what is it going through everything that. All of the. All of the damage, because it's causing catastrophic damage through the body. But again, it still does not take seven gunshot wounds to cause ceasing of life in this case. This is consistent with anger, retaliation, overkill. Yeah, it's. It's a complete rage type of a killing, but it's controlled. And that's one of the things that I really, really want to get across is that this is inconsistent with frenzied attack. This is consistent with. With a. A planned, premeditated, organized, sophisticated, thoughtful, mindful attack.

Ashley Banfield (28:43)

Methodical.

Dr. Laura Petler (28:44)

Yes, absolutely. Very methodical.

Ashley Banfield (28:47)

Well, this sounds obvious to me, but there's probably something I don't understand in this line. It says cause of death, obviously gunshot wounds to the head, neck, trunk, and extremities. But then it says included visceral, skeletal, and soft tissue damage. Again, it sounds kind of obvious, but is there something I'm missing?

Dr. Laura Petler (29:12)

No. So the cause of death is different than the manner of death. The cause of death we're talking about what caused the body to be unable to sustain life. And the injuries that were sustained. Sustained by Spencer Tepe, caused by the wounds to his head, neck, trunk and extremities basically rendered his body unable to sustain life. Plus, you've got a lot of Bleeding. The blood stains in this case, they're going to tell a whole story on their own. And blood stains are, to me, one of the most honest forms of evidence. And they always tell the truth. They don't work for any particular side. They have no dog in the fight. They're waiting for someone who speaks blood stain. I speak fluent blood stain. And I'm telling you that this case, because he had no shirt on, the blood stain evidence is. Is potential to really give context to the wound pattern analysis. So we would use it in conjunction, use it in tandem. We would. We would marry the two together within the mosaic. Mosaic of the victimology, suspectology, laboratory reports, the firearms examiners report the test firing of the firearm. All of those things in relation to the gunshot wounds, the head, trunk, the neck, extremities.

Ashley Banfield (30:34)

So for instance.

Dr. Laura Petler (30:34)

And it's consistent with homicide, not accident or anything else. There's no other way you can do this.

Ashley Banfield (30:40)

I mean, for sure, manner of death is homicide.

Dr. Laura Petler (30:43)

We're there.

Ashley Banfield (30:44)

We got an arrest. We got an arrest. Man killed man, so.

Dr. Laura Petler (30:47)

Right.

Ashley Banfield (30:48)

And I say man meaning human killed human, not that man. He's alleged. But I love that you said bloodstains will tell the story. We don't have that here yet. But you and I, in the other episode, and we'll link that other episode in this episode as well, in the description. But you told me before, and we discussed patterns of blood. So, for instance, if Monique Tepe is on the ground, is found dead on the ground, and underneath her is Spencer Tepe's blood spatter, then we know he was being shot before she died. But if you. You mentioned it earlier, if he. If the shooter shot back and forth, that could also be a result of Spencer Tepe's blood being found underneath Monique. Maybe she didn't die. I mean, there's a little bit of wiggle room there.

Dr. Laura Petler (31:41)

Right, right. And so the sequencing events, you know, when we're talking about bloodstain pattern analysis, we're talking about the analysis of the size, shape, location and distribution of blood stains. I mean, that's just the very bare bones of the definition. And blood, luckily for all of us, it behaves by the laws of gravity. Yeah, physics. Right, Physics and gravity. Yeah, yeah, I love it. I love gravity. You know, blood don't run uphill. You know what I mean? Like, that's kind of like a. A catchphrase in. In that I've always said. And people who pose bodies don't realize

Ashley Banfield (32:19)

that body already bled down and that

Dr. Laura Petler (32:22)

body is now up in flow Patterns. So another thing that we're going to be looking for here for me, is flow patterns. So, you know, how does the blood drip from the ear? And then all of a sudden does it turn left or does it turn right? Because it shows that the body is upright, potentially at the time of the shot. Right. And then the body goes forward or the body goes backwards. And so the blood will start to come down, but then it'll. It'll hook and it'll show you these different directions. And so it shows you movement after the infliction of injury. And so that's really, really critical when you have a multiple stabbing case or beating case or in this case, you know, multiple gunshot wounds. Because, you know, this is just, you know, he wanted that control and that structure. He really needed the. The production of this to go very well for him. In. In this case, where, you know, knives can be chaotic. And this is not like a dissociative frenzy. This is a very, very controlled attack where. Where it's front to back, it's. It's left to right. You know, in. In Spencer's case, it's dynamic. Yes. And it. And right to left. In some. In some ways, it's upward and downward. So you have these very. Yes. It's not static. This is. As opposed to a victim sleep in the bed. You come up behind the victim, shoot the victim in that once in the back of the head. No movement, no purposeful movement after the time of the shot. This is indicative of maybe the. The victim is moving, maybe the offender is moving, maybe they're both moving together until the force is applied so greatly to the victim that the victim cannot. Cannot move anymore. You know, and so it's. It's immediate loss of all this neurological function, too, you know, like. And that's more on the medical side, but to me, like, you're being shot. You know what I mean? Like, you're. You're thinking, what. What's happening? So there's not, like, there. Maybe they're thinking, I just have to get away. Or, like, to your point, is it. Is it all. All seven shots? Dispenser, and then to Monique, or the other way around, or back and forth

Ashley Banfield (34:54)

or back and forth.

Dr. Laura Petler (34:55)

To me, it looks like, based on the. The clustering, and I say that loosely, just because we have an ear shot, Spencer, we have a neck shot, we have the. To me, this is in a cluster, right?

Ashley Banfield (35:08)

So it's shoot, shoot, shoot, shoot, shoot, shoot. Because otherwise you'd be moving too far away to be able to get them all in the same zone. Yeah.

Dr. Laura Petler (35:15)

Right. And you might have, you know, going through the center piece of the body as well, you know, and I've seen that many times. So for me, it's kind of like I'm looking at it like, yes, there's movement, but how much movement? And that's where the forensic pathologist comes in to say, yes. Okay, so here's the purposeful movement that this person could have made. You've got the distal area of the. Of the arm hit, you've got the hand hit. Those are not going to be fatal. And the forensic pathologist is going to explain. Explain what could be fatal. What, what caused a loss of blood to where the blood pressure was, you know, dissipating, where there's, you know, the person's going out like a candle.

Ashley Banfield (35:56)

There is this other piece in the report that said time to death, which to me is that layperson means how long did it take him to die? And the coroner determined death occurred within seconds to minutes. Minutes made me upset. And I also. So I wanted to ask you about that, but also with that kind of terror and also confusion, would there have been a significant amount of pain?

Dr. Laura Petler (36:25)

You know, again, that's on the medical side. But my experience with understanding autopsy reports and listening to forensic pathologists all of these years, they've. They've said that there's not a lot of pain in cases where the body releases endorphins. So when we become injured as human beings, generally speaking, the body tries to protect us somewhat, and in some cases there isn't a lot of pain, and then in other cases, there is. So again, the forensic pathologist would be the one in this particular situation and the location of those particular wounds to be able to really, really elaborate on whether they thought there was pain.

Ashley Banfield (37:12)

I hope that your body's defensive mechanisms would kick in for Spencer and Meek and that it just would be terrifying. Yes. But hopefully painful. No. Okay, let's turn our attention to Monique and the reports that we know about her autopsy, and that is that she suffered nine. So she suffered two more gunshots than Spencer did. Considering she's the ex and Spencer's not, that's probably not surprising to you.

Dr. Laura Petler (37:42)

No, she's. That's. The report is that she suffered from nine gunshot wounds, he suffered from seven. It's domestic violence homicide. So even though he is a former intimate partner, it's still is classified as. As domestic violence homicide or intimate partner homicide. And the reports that I read was that he threatened to kill the suspect. In this case, the Defendant in this case who's been charged with these crimes. There was domestic violence prior to this, and this type of. This type of dumping, this rage type dumping into the. Into the victim is an emotional release. It really releases, like a perceived, you know, grievance, abandonment, those kinds of things. And the. The shooter in this case, regardless of who it is, knows how to operate a weapon. They can fire the weapon repeatedly under stress. They understand how to take down the target, and not only did he intend or the killer intend to kill Monique and Spencer, but also dump all of the rage that was being experienced into this act. It was like, I'm, you know, one bullet that was Nowhere near enough. 2 was nowhere near enough, but it's like, was it. It's interesting to me that, like, you mentioned, you know, your firearm and how many projectiles that firearm holds and that we have 16 in this case as well. And it's like, okay, is there even a plan that I'm gonna shoot you nine times and I'm gonna shoot you seven? You know, is that even part of the plan? Because we do see it. And originally, like, you know, where we thought it was, one wound to the chest for Monique, and three, it was the opposite. Now we know that it's very consistent with the pattern of. Of intimate partner homicide when there are firearms involved and when there's a. When there's somebody that is perceived as, like, a rescuer or in interference or something like that. The. The shooter in this case was able to adapt his or her or whoever's position to make sure that this got done, and it got done exactly the way that it was planned. And to me, that's what her wound pattern shows us, is that it went as planned.

Ashley Banfield (40:24)

So this is so upsetting. One shot is to the face, and it's to her right cheek, which, you know, everybody would. I don't know, I think everybody would turn differently to try to protect themselves, but I would turn to the left and protect myself that way, which would mean the right cheek.

Dr. Laura Petler (40:45)

It depends on where they are. They are in the room. Assuming that they are in the bedroom. Assuming that they're in bed. Assuming that, you know, we're. And that, again, like I'm using the word assuming because we. We don't know yet where they're found.

Ashley Banfield (41:01)

We do know this.

Dr. Laura Petler (41:02)

911.

Ashley Banfield (41:03)

Yeah, the 911 caller said it looks like he's beside the bed. So, Right. Rolled out of bed, jumped up out of terror, and both of them are standing. But there, I think there's got to be because there's these straight on shots and it's very hard to get over someone in bed that many times and then have them roll off.

Dr. Laura Petler (41:20)

Logic, right, Right, exactly. And like you're thinking about logic, you know, like I said before, you know, we know there's nobody standing on the ceiling, you know what I mean? Shooting downward into the bed. So it's like it's, it's consistent with. Is get up Spencer Tepe on. Yes. Is he, is he on the right side of the bed? So if you're at the foot of the bed, you're looking at the bed. Is Monique on the, on the left side and Spencer on the right side.

Ashley Banfield (41:51)

And then, or how about this? How about this? Someone who is so rage filled, will they be really satisfied just shooting you in the bed or will they want you to get up? I'm about to tell you everything I want to unload and then I'm going to do something to you and I'm going to make you watch as I do something to your partner. I mean, I almost feel as though the satisfaction for somebody that rage filled to do shots to the face for both of them. Right. They're going to want to take their time communicating the issues that they have with these people. Right.

Dr. Laura Petler (42:27)

Sometimes they do use very direct language, like you said, you know, they sometimes will go, get up, don't talk, movement, sit down, you know, they'll use very clear direct language. We don't know in this case if there was anything spoken.

Ashley Banfield (42:47)

Monique said to friends that he, this is, this is out through reports. Monique told friends who reported to police that he said, I will buy the house next to you, I will track you down. You will always be my wife. And so that's why I think if that's true, that won't be somebody who's satisfied just coming in, popping off those shots and leaving. There's going to want to be some conversation and some settling of grievances about all of it, you know.

Dr. Laura Petler (43:17)

That's right. I mean, that's exactly right. I mean this is about a prolonged long term type grievance that he's had with her, you know, and I'm speaking about what the state's alleging with this, this in this case in domestic violence homicide, unfortunately this is a pattern that is seen a lot of times where the, the, the offender wants ultimate power and control of the victim and a

Ashley Banfield (43:49)

little bit of torture, a little bit of inflicting pain and suffering before the death.

Dr. Laura Petler (43:54)

Yes. It can be mental or otherwise to be like that. Yes. And there has to be a tremendous amount of familiarity to come into somebody's house, come all the way through it, come upstairs and end up in their, in the, in the bedroom. Because the bedroom is a very purposeful location. That is not a random location for inflicting gunshot wounds on, on these victims. To me, Ashley, and that, and I'm saying that because think about a bed, think about a bedroom that is a very intimate space. And he didn't kill Monique Tepe and Spencer Tepe when they were out to dinner somewhere. He killed them in their bedroom or

Ashley Banfield (44:44)

getting out of their car outside at the garage, walking inside. But I will say this. If you're doing it under the COVID of darkness in the middle of the night, the only place you're going to find them likely is in a bedroom.

Dr. Laura Petler (44:54)

But that met his needs. You know, the killer, the needs are met by, you know, you are always going to be my wife and you are here in bed with another man. And this is where. Yes. And so to me, if he did it, it's a reflection. It's. Yes. I mean the, the defendant in this case, to me, the whole, whole thing is a reflection of the personality, cognition and emotionality of the offender. What are we seeing from, from those standpoints? And you know, it's, it's very consistent with a rage filled anger retaliatory conflict, conflict resolution, benefit type murder. You know, what, what is the conflict between the victim and the offender? How does the offender choose to resolve that conflict through murder? And then who benefits from the victim's death? That, that's my matrix for conflict resolution benefit murder. And it, it, you know, usually fits very, very well with domestic violence homicide. And in my opinion, it fits in well with this case.

Ashley Banfield (46:06)

So let's talk about the other injuries because again, nine gunshots, the majority of the clip and what was in the chamber here, additional. Well, let's go with the chest. The chest appare received three gunshots. So one to the face, right cheek, and then three to the chest.

Dr. Laura Petler (46:28)

So it's not as much movement. You know, I don't think we're seeing as much movement out of Monique as we are with Spencer. You know, to me, Spencer and I, and of course I could be wrong, but to me he could be on the right side of the bed. He is moving off the right side of the bed, falls down onto the floor and then somehow ends up with a gunshot wound to the back. With Monique, it's different. You know, you have a gunshot wound to the right side of you said right side of her Cheek.

Ashley Banfield (46:54)

Right, Right cheek. Yeah. A gunshot wound to the right cheek.

Dr. Laura Petler (46:57)

Right. Okay, so right cheek and then three to the right side of the chest.

Ashley Banfield (47:02)

I just know three shots to the chest. I don't have the right side.

Dr. Laura Petler (47:07)

Yeah, okay. Yeah. So like, and we don't know if they're round, we don't know if they're ovoid. You know, we don't know what she was wearing. So there's a lot of information that's missing to be able to really, really take a deep dive like we can with Spencer because we actually have a report written by a medical professional. But in, in her case, you know, it's a bit more open ended at this point. And those gunshot wounds, to me that pattern sounds like a victim that was not moving as much. But also it's a, this, this shooter can. Understands how to aim across you know, multiple planes of the body and repeat the, this sequence. You know, to be able to shoot like he, Spencer is shot in the chest. Monique is also shot in the chest. Spencer shot in the head. Monique is also shot in the head. So like they, he can or the killer can repeat and remanufacture the same pattern.

Ashley Banfield (48:12)

I keep coming back to the suspect who they arrested and that is someone who is a vascular surgeon. Look, I know about, I know a lot about how to kill people easily and quickly only because I was a war correspondent and I knew how I was supposed to protect myself in a situation in a battlefield. But I also, you know, I did the NRA course. And the kill zone is your right here. This is the kill zone right here. You know, you are going for that. And as a vascular surgeon, you would know exactly what you've got to do whether it's in the head, neck, chest. That's why I'm guessing again, he's innocent until proven guilty. But I'm guessing it's why we don't have any shots to the legs, the butt, the feet, nothing.

Dr. Laura Petler (48:54)

It's all your body.

Ashley Banfield (48:56)

Head, chest, neck.

Dr. Laura Petler (48:57)

Yeah, it doesn't do anything emotionally for the killer. It does not bring on the, the payoff. You know, every single one of those shots is, is a message, is anger, is you wronged me, I own you. Those kinds of coercive type controlling behaviors that were allegedly exhibited in Monique Tepe's former relationship. So every single one of them is, is kind of, is very specific. Even though they're in a cluster, we see three to the, three to the chest, one to the face. Similar pattern with, with, with Spencer. It's still, it's still to me it are two totally different emotion. Not, not different emotions but like the difference in the way he feels toward where the killer feels toward Monique is different than the way feel towards Spencer. Yeah, Spencer is easier to maybe get away or be a bigger threat. So, you know, a lot of times killers will take out the bigger threat first.

Ashley Banfield (50:10)

First.

Dr. Laura Petler (50:10)

And in this case, yeah, in this case, I saw in the autopsy report that Spencer was, I believe, 187 pounds

Ashley Banfield (50:21)

and

Dr. Laura Petler (50:23)

73 inches in length. You know, so he's not a tiny little person, you know, he's a. A person of a bit of size, you know, then that six one.

Ashley Banfield (50:37)

Is that six one? I think 73. Did I do the math right?

Dr. Laura Petler (50:40)

Five. Five feet is 60 inches. Yes, about six' one. So you know, he is a definitely more of a formidal formidable threat than mo'.

Ashley Banfield (50:53)

Nique.

Dr. Laura Petler (50:54)

And you know, you could see them in their wedding pictures and things. You know, she was definitely more of a petite.

Ashley Banfield (51:01)

Tiny.

Dr. Laura Petler (51:02)

Yeah, she's small it compared, you know. So are we gonna take out Spencer first? Because you know, you don't want Spencer trying to interrupt when you're the ultimate goal. Yeah, killing your absolute ultimate target.

Ashley Banfield (51:17)

And you know, this. This suspect who's arrested is massive. I mean, I saw him walk into court and I was astounded. I can't remember his specs, but he's well over six one, I think, and well over 200 pounds. He was a very big man. Didn't used to be. His earlier pictures showed he was quite slight, almost the same as Spencer Tepe. They seemed very alike. But then later in life, and that would have taken over 10 years because they weren't married long and it was. And they were divorced and separated and finished after 10 years. He transformed. He transformed. Yeah, he became quite.

Dr. Laura Petler (51:52)

Well, I think it's a reflection of. It may be a reflection of how he felt about himself, you know, and. And how, you know, he. Is he putting on some kind of armor, you know, to protect himself or. Yeah, and I'll tell you so many reasons.

Ashley Banfield (52:07)

He didn't look obese. He looked as though he was a big strong man. Almost like he had put on all the weight at the gym. You know, he was much beefier, but in almost a healthy fit kind of way. That was just my observations. Let me move on to the additional wounds that Monique suffered. Gunshot wounds to the torso and arms. I can't tell you how many in. In each space other than the chest is three times, but torso and arms. Once again it tells me you're yes. You're getting your arms up to defend yourself.

Dr. Laura Petler (52:45)

Yes. You know, this is, these are goal oriented murders.

Ashley Banfield (52:51)

You know, let me correct that. I do have a little bit of information from the Columbus Dispatch on Monique. So let me just tell you what I've got. Okay. Three gunshots to the right chest all clustered together. Now, is that shooter's right or is that victim's right?

Dr. Laura Petler (53:10)

When they say that, if they're, if they're saying if that's coming from like a medical report, my understanding of that would be that's the, the right side of the, of the victim.

Ashley Banfield (53:23)

Okay, so three gunshot wounds to the right chest all clustered together. Again, if this is a vascular surgeon aiming for the heart, he's going for center mass there. And maybe she's turning slightly and it hits her right hand side the wound. There's another wound to the right side of the torso, which would maybe tell you she's trying to get away, she's trying to defend. I don't know. There is a wound to the right forearm. Just like I said. If I was turning and trying to protect myself, that's what I might do.

Dr. Laura Petler (53:54)

Right, Right. And we see the same twist, you know, the same kind of twist with, with, and these are all to the right, which is interesting because. Is she rolling off the other side of the bed?

Ashley Banfield (54:07)

I think she's standing. I think at this point there's no joy. There's so little joy for somebody rage filled to come in and just kill people as they lie down. I think, I think he wants to make a statement. Get up, get out of bed. I'm gonna tell you, and then I'm gonna hurt him in front of you, and then I'm gonna take you out in the face. But you're gonna know everything. I'm gonna mentally torture, torture you with everything that's on my mind for the last 10 years. So get up, you know, or sit up or something, you know, and then

Dr. Laura Petler (54:38)

I'm gonna own you for the rest of my life. Because this, you know, is such an intimate act between any, any kind of murder is an intimate act between a killer and a victim. In my opinion, it's more intimate than any other act because you can only die with one person, like one time,

Ashley Banfield (55:00)

you know, just ask a serial killer. Yes, it's their ultimate control in life.

Dr. Laura Petler (55:07)

And they, and they can, you know, unfortunately, killers, the murders don't start when the victims die and they don't end when the victims die. The murder really starts when the killer starts planning the murder. And I don't think they stop until murders don't end with the death of the victim. They more or less end when a killer stops getting satisfaction from the murders. And I think that, that this was again, goal oriented murder in this case, very deliberate, very purposeful locations on the bodies. The again, not in the legs, not in the big toe, not in the tip of the finger. This is to the head, to the torso, to the kill zone. And it is lethal. It is, it is prolonged, lethal, rapid attack that is for the purpose of inflicting pain, injury, death and the cathartic release of all of this anger and power and control. Domestic violence is about power and control. Domestic violence, homicide is about power and control as well.

Ashley Banfield (56:21)

You know, it also reminds me of my protective equipment when I was at war. I had a flak vest that covered my front kill zone and my back kill zone. Not much in the side. And I had a helmet, you know, for the, for the head kill zone. So that tells you he would kill. He would know as a vascular surgeon, if he's guilty, he would know exactly how to do it easily and quickly and make it painful and make it loud and ugly. And there's more. I told you. There's a wound to the right forearm. There's also, according to the Columbus Dispatch, a wound to the right hand, so forearm hand and two wounds to the left upper arm. So maybe two of them coming up. You know, again, yes, this is the ultimate sign of don't do it. You know, every, every, almost every animated, you know, scene shows somebody saying no. And this is sort of the position of defense, you know, of putting your right arm above your head and left arm at your face and trying to protect yourself from whatever's coming.

Dr. Laura Petler (57:19)

Right. But you know, one thing that like, you know, fictional shows like that get wrong is like how people like fly around when they get, you know, like fly onto the ground, like in this very dramatic way. It's typically not like that. You know, with gunshot wounds. The blood stained evidence shows us that that's really not consistent. That's not really reality, that's really production. But in this case, like you're saying it's consistent with defensive wounds is to trying to protect herself. I think we see the same thing with, with Spencer, the same thing. The arms come up, you know, they don't open themselves up. People close themselves up, you know, like shells, like they try to protect themselves if they're being attacked. And you know, he has the position of a weapon, the weapon, they're not armed. Right. So you know, we don't have any information that they have any type of weapon. So he's got the upper hand. He is in control of this situation and he can call the, no pun intended, but literally call the shots, you know what I mean? Of, of how this is going to go down and start to finish. Sure.

Ashley Banfield (58:29)

He's.

Dr. Laura Petler (58:29)

Yes. And. And make sure that he's accomplishing every single goal from his. From the emotional and the cognitive state that, that the organization of the whole thing, the sophistication of the whole thing.

Ashley Banfield (58:42)

So again, I talked about this earlier, but I'm gonna let you know now that another piece of the report of Monique Tepe's autopsy suggests that she was shot at close range, which I am looking through this pattern, as you call it, the wound pattern analysis. And I wonder if he shot her in the chest three times. Again, the killer, whoever it is, shot her in the chest three times. She's trying to protect herself and she gets the wounds in the hand and the arm and the forearm and then she's down. And then you get the headshot at close range, execution style. I always wonder if that's how you get the perfect aim on the face. The face. Not even the head. The face. Right cheek. So she's maybe down and her right cheek is up and then it's to the face. I wonder if that or if the face was the first lucky shot because it's not easy to aim in the dark. This is a pitch black. I assume the lights weren't on. I shouldn't.

Dr. Laura Petler (59:44)

Right.

Ashley Banfield (59:44)

Maybe he switched the lights on and said, get up, we're going to talk. I don't know.

Dr. Laura Petler (59:49)

Yeah, I think this is the defendant in this case strikes me as the type that's never going to tell anybody what went on in there. And what's going to be critical for the prosecution to help explain this to a court is the. Not only the sequencing events like you're describing, do the lights go on first? Does. And that would not surprise me. That would not surprise me at all because you do have the clusters. Right. And you. We know that we have a shooter, no matter who the shooter is. We know that we have a shooter that is competent with a firearm, that can adapt his or her position on the fly, and that they are able to. To shoot across multiple planes of the body and still hit critical targets that are. That render a victim incapacitated and then of course cause death. So I think you could be very right that there are, there's an element of, you know, the lights go on. There could Be direct language. There's the element of surprise. They have absolutely no idea, you know, that this is about to happen. It's, it's. They're caught under, maybe under blankets or something like that where they have to move away. And, and I don't. Does it say where she was? We don't know where she was found. Right.

Ashley Banfield (61:18)

We don't, but I can say that the 911 caller could only see Spencer fallen off the bed. Well, she could have fallen off the other side of the bed. That's not visible from the, the doorway that the caller had approached and didn't go closer. So let's say the bed is inside and she's on the other side of the bed, having stood up, fallen out of the bed. Whatever it is, maybe she's eclipsed by the bed. And that's why the caller could only see one person on.

Dr. Laura Petler (61:47)

So the caller didn't go into the room. Is that what you're understanding?

Ashley Banfield (61:51)

The caller said. The caller said he could not go further, whether that meant mentally or physically barricaded. Whatever it was. The caller said, I can't, I can't go further. I can't get further. I think the caller had children to deal with as well, and there was more to it. Yeah, I see.

Dr. Laura Petler (62:07)

I see. Okay. Yes, yes, absolutely. So we, we don't know that yet. And you know that that position is going to be a huge, huge piece of the puzzle of, of where her body is recovered, because that's gonna lend to, like, what you're mentioning earlier, Ashley, about the layers of blood. A lot of times you'll, you will find, like, if you have two victims in a scene like this and both are bleeding at the same time, which we know they are both bleeding at the same time, and we, we don't have any indication that anybody else is bleeding in the scene. So from the bloodstain pattern analysis side of the house, you know, we're going to be looking for those layers of blood, which, you know, what came first, what came second. You know, what items are, are maybe disrupted. And on top of blood, what blood actually spattered, you know, back spatter versus forward spatter. All of those kind of things are going to come into play. And you're dealing with fabric, a lot of fabric in bedding room carpet, maybe. Yes. So the way that blood behaves on different fab. Every different fabric is different. Like the way it behaves on polyester is different, the way that it behaves on cotton and synthetics and stuff. So sometimes, you know, the blood stains can be stretched out because like, they, the, the droplet of blood goes onto the fabric. Sometimes they sit directly on top of that fabric and they cannot. They just sit there like in a little spheroid on top of the, of the fabric. And they don't absorb. And then there's other types of fabrics where the blood will absorb. And then it changes the size and shape, it distorts that size and shape. And it's like, okay, can we really use that to analyze exactly what was going on right here? It still tells a story, but then the DNA is going to also play a big role in. Okay, we're going to swab this. We're going to swab this. So we're going to divide the room. Like me, I would divide the room into area A, area B, area 6C, area D, like those kinds of things. And then I would swab blood stain A1 from area A, one, blood stain two from area A, like those kind of things. So I would end up with like 10 blood stains selected from each of the distributions. And of course, we identify those based on the patterns. Bloodstain pattern analysis cannot be used alone. It has to be used in context with the, the totality of circumstances of the case. But it also needs to be used with the DNA, you know, to like, put people where they go in the scene and also connecting it to that event. Now, in this case, it's very highly unlikely that there's going to be a bunch of blood in the room other than from this event. Right, but that's not always true in every case. Honestly, it's not. I mean, sometimes you do have what looks like to be old blood and you're having to test it because you're like, is that even relevant part of this scene? Right, Yes.

Ashley Banfield (65:16)

I cut my foot during the summer and I've stepped on the carpet and.

Dr. Laura Petler (65:19)

Yeah, exactly. So swab like 10 stains from each of the areas, each of the distributions to the room. And I'm imagining that there are going to be different distributions because of what we're talking about here, that we have movement. It isn't. These wound patterns are indicative of movement. And even though these are like prelim reports that we're looking at here, it's still illustrious of. Of potential movement. We're not going to know that until much later, but that it is in the blood stains are going to tell the story.

Ashley Banfield (65:52)

Here's something that might tell you quite a story. That the time of death, again, this is for Monique Tepe, not for Spencer. Spencer's time to Death was within seconds to minutes. But time to death for Monique, the coroner determined occurred rapidly. Rapidly was the word, not minutes to, you know, not seconds to minutes, rapidly.

Dr. Laura Petler (66:14)

So there's a catastrophic injury to, to her body. That was where she was not able to sustain life.

Ashley Banfield (66:24)

Yeah, that either the head wound first or in the circumstance I imagined the multiple shots to the kill zone, the heart, right away. Listen, I heard about firing squad being one of the quickest ways to die because the aim is to the heart. And multiple gunshots to the heart mean you are dead within seconds, not minutes. You don't sit there and bleed out, you die fast. They've said that they, you know, that that kind of execution is actually strangely one of the most humane because you die so quickly. And that's what I wonder if maybe the three shots to this right side of the chest might have been the rapid death.

Dr. Laura Petler (67:04)

Yeah, it's very possible rapid death. You know, sometimes we'll use words like immediate death, you know, things like that. So this pathologist is, as you're reporting, like they're using the word rapid meaning that, you know, is there a loss of blood pressure, is there a loss of neurological function, is there a loss of cardiac function, pulmonary function, you know, very, very quickly.

Ashley Banfield (67:32)

There's one last thing I want to ask you about and it's. Some of it's not surprising, some of it is very sad. That's the toxicology results for Spencer and Monique. No alcohol or illicit drugs found in either Spencer or Monique's autopsy. But with Monique they did find prescription medications that were detected and that included an antidepressant and an antihistamine. The antidepressant is what's sad to me is because I think she had reported to friends, if they're telling the truth to the police, that she was, you know, ridden with a lot of anxiety about this ex of hers and that he was non stop and had made these threats that were ongoing throughout the time that she was. Between the time she died and the time that she left him again. This notion that I will always find you again, if it's true, I will always find you. I will buy the house beside you and you will always be my wife. I mean, I just can't imagine that that wouldn't affect you to the point of needing to be medicated.

Dr. Laura Petler (68:36)

Yes. And you know, anti depression medication can also be used for anxiety too, you know, so we don't know the medical reason why she is taking that, but it could be one or both. And absolutely, I mean the fact that if this is true about what she was experiencing in the last, and I'm going to say 30 days, you know, because I saw something where there was a. Allegedly an element of stalking potentially going on prior to the murders of Monique and Spencer Tepe. And in domestic violence homicide, it is very common, if not statistically significant that we usually find like whatever the trigger is or whatever the catalyst is within sometimes seven days. But, you know, 30 days prior to the death of the victim. But I, you know, I don't know that I've seen it as much.

Ashley Banfield (69:37)

We got that, you know, we got the report. Dry run. Dry run alleged on 6 December, 24 days before the killing. So, yeah, I mean, if that is all true. Yeah, that's a. She was at the. She was at the Big Ten championship game in Indianapolis on Dec. 6. My son was there at the same time. That's why I remember that date so, so clearly. And she was with friends and with her husband. And she had to leave the game midway through. And Spencer told the friends Monique had to go back to the hotel. Something's happened with her ex. And we have learned that it's that the ex was seen on the Tepes ring cam, or at least the tepe is that the ex was recorded. Dr. Michael McKee was recorded in the home, in the area of the home, the curtilage of the home, which is, you know, your property, skulking around for a couple of hours. That's my lingo. But it was several hours he was on camera on the curtilage of the Tepe home. Don't know if we got inside. Just know that he was there. And then if you imagine they have this ring, they have these ring cams. And maybe that's what she saw on her phone when she got an alert, there's something at your house. And then she can see her ex maybe walking around her house. And that's why she needed to leave the game. So, yeah, there's anxiety there. There's. There's a lot of anxiety about that because there's no way the police would know about Dr. Michael McKee allegedly being on the curtilage of the Tepe home. Unless someone from the Tepe family gave it.

Dr. Laura Petler (71:10)

Did they report that? I'm wondering if Monique reported that he was there to police, like if there, you know, was a report of the, of the stalking type behavior prior to this event.

Ashley Banfield (71:24)

I can tell you no. The police said that they'd had no reports of disturbances from the Tepes home. They had not had that report now, there's all sorts of semantics that you can apply to that. Did they get a report that there was a intruder or that there was someone? I don't know, but that the way they worded it made it sound as though there'd been no reports of an incident at the Tepe home regarding domestic violence. Violence in any way.

Dr. Laura Petler (71:49)

So stalking, of course, is one of the most common precursor behaviors that is observable in domestic violence homicide, whether it's a current temporary or former intimate partner. So that. That kind of, you know, just runs consistent with this. This entire situation. And the more information that I hear, the. The more I can understand the. The dynamics and the characteristics not only of the scene and just kind of imagine what this is looking like and what I expect that we'll find as we get closer to where this case is going to be put before the court. And again, like the. The. The way that domestic violence works, it's always about power and control. So there's also this element of organization. So, like, familiarity is, you know, people that are afraid, people that are in a panic when they kill, often make a lot of mistakes, you know, and they're easy to catch. But people like this, that commit these types of homicides, when they do this, they're planning. So, like, that stalking behavior, is it twofold? Where a. It is. Is that where the murder actually began? You know, it. Is that where it actually started? Did it start prior to that? Did it start. You know, you're always going to be my wife. I'm going to buy the house next door for me. I'm looking for that. Where. Where did the murder actually begin and where. What is the catalyst here? I'm not exactly sure what the trigger is, but I can tell you that from that, if that is true, that. That Mr. McKee was observed on the camera footage on the 6th of October, and I believe their date of death. Is it not the 30th of December? Not October 30th?

Ashley Banfield (73:55)

It's 24 days before the December. No, no, it's December. And the December 6th is the. Is the observation that's in a police affidavit of him on the curtilage of the Tepe property. And on that same day, the Tepes are traveling. They're in Indianapolis for the Big Ten game. And she has to leave the game halfway through. She's there with her friends. These tickets are expensive. This is an incredibly important game for Indiana University. I know because it's my son. And she had to leave and go back to the Hotel because there was some issue with her.

Dr. Laura Petler (74:24)

Okay.

Ashley Banfield (74:24)

And there you have it. I mean, you can put two and two together there.

Dr. Laura Petler (74:26)

Yeah, that's me. You know, I don't know. Like I said, you know, the murder sometimes starts way before the death of the victims. And so like this, the stalking behavior, excuse me, is consistent with the pattern of domestic violence overall. But then on top of that, the familiarity with the house, you know, that, that makes an offender more comfortable. So that's why you see like, you know, in like serial robberies and serial burglaries and things like that, like they want to become familiar by casing. You hear people, people say, oh, they case the joint, right. And they're. They're casing. Is that what he's doing? Is he becoming more familiar? Because that lessens his own anxiety. But let me tell you, see it, I don't see anxiety in the scene at all from him.

Ashley Banfield (75:09)

He had, he was off from work that day, so very convenient. And you know, what with social media these days, who knows if there wasn't some social media blast that went out somewhere saying, can't wait to see you at the Big ten game this week or next week or whatever. So that would alert someone. But it's a long drive, 10 hours away. I could make a trip that day. They're going to be away. They're going to the big ten game. Yeah.

Dr. Laura Petler (75:37)

From his house.

Ashley Banfield (75:37)

Well, between. So it's a six hour drive.

Dr. Laura Petler (75:41)

Ish.

Ashley Banfield (75:42)

If you're going to stop and get gas and eat and go to the bathroom. I know it's going to be, it's going to be six there, six back or five there, five back. If you race and wear a diaper, you know. But yeah, I mean, you're gonna drive a long way. You're gonna need the day off. You're gonna need the day off to get there and back and do these. A couple of hours on location. That's the other thing. A couple of hours planning is if

Dr. Laura Petler (76:03)

it's him, the, the plan. Right. If, if Mr. McKee is the. Is found guilty of these murders and he indeed is the. Is the correct suspect. The level of planning, extraordinary plan. Yes, it's. It's extraordinary because it is so goal oriented. It is so go. And he's a surgeon, you know, Mr. McKee is a surgeon. He is a goal oriented person. A surgeon. You can't become a surgeon easily. That's a lot of hard work. You know, it's a lot of time, it's a lot of education. It's a Lot of studying. It's a lot of, a lot of things.

Ashley Banfield (76:40)

Up to 15 years, you know, dedication

Dr. Laura Petler (76:43)

and being able to be like, this is the goal and I'm staying on my path, you know, like, so, like, when you're looking at the personality, we don't know a lot about him yet, but I definitely think, you know, the fact that, that the profession of Mr. McKee is the fact that he's a surgeon, that is a goal oriented profession just in and of itself. And it's a, it's a high goal. It's a big goal. It's not, you know, something, you know, easily acquired by most people. So it's so consistent with the. The scene is always a reflection of the personality, cognition, emotionality of the offender. And as, as we continue to talk, Ashley, is it, is it unbelievably sad and tragic? Yes, from every standpoint that we could possibly discuss. But it is also totally consistent with what we know so far about the defendant who has been charged in this case. It's. It's consistent with. I think the state is moving in the right direction. I don't know either, but they believe that they are.

Ashley Banfield (78:03)

Dr. Petler, I could talk to you for hours and I have already had you for over an hour and I know I've overstayed my welcome. I cannot thank you enough for this. You're absolutely brilliant and I so appreciate the way you think. I just, I think everybody who's watching right now, this is, I like to call it our coffee clutch. Our community, whatever it is, we are, we are really invested in these kinds of stories and this kind of justice for victims. And so hearing you walk us through this and help us understand this is just so invaluable. Thank you.

Dr. Laura Petler (78:32)

Thank you so much for having me. I enjoy talking with you about these things and, you know, it gets my brain going, too. And so I enjoy our conversations about, about these things because I do think it's important for people to understand because sometimes when misinformation is out there, it scares people. It scares people. So to actually understand, you know, a little bit about what we see in domestic violence, homicide in the reality of those things, or what we see in homicide overall or what we see are in serial predation in any of these types of cases, I think that's important for people to understand so that it can quell a lot of the fear and a lot of the comments that kind of get way out of hand with all the technology today that we have to consume all this information. So I'm very grateful for the opportunity to be here. I'm honored to work with you on these cases.

Ashley Banfield (79:31)

This case is far from over. The questions raised by just these autopsy findings, they're not going away. Yeah, we're going to get a lot more on this stuff, right? As the investigation continues and more facts come into focus. We will be here. I promised you and I am sticking to my word. We're going to keep you apprised on this case. Justice for Monique and Spencer. And justice for Dr. Michael McKee. If he's the killer, I'm Ashley Banfield. Thank you so much for listening and watching. And remember, the truth isn't just serious, it's drop dead serious.