← Drop Dead Serious With Ashleigh Banfield
Drop Dead Serious With Ashleigh Banfield
My Deep Dive with Vinnie Politan on the Verdict, Turtleboy, and Possibility of Wrongful Death Suit Against Karen Read?
01:08:25
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- [00:00]
Ashley Banfield
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- [00:26]
Vinny Politan
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- [00:32]
Ashley Banfield
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Vinny Politan
Or when you are sure you wanted.
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Ashley Banfield
A home gym but your elliptical is currently hanging your laundry.
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Vinny Politan
What about a home office?
- [00:55]
Ashley Banfield
Shop everything you need for your next phase with Valspar Available at Lowe's. Price varies. By Sheen hey everyone, I'm Ashley Banfield and this is drop dead Serious. After seven long weeks of explosive testimony, clashing experts, and more sidebars than anybody bargained for, the wait is finally over and a verdict has finally been reached in the Karen Reed murder trial. It did not come easy though. Closing arguments wrapped up on Friday and the case was in the jury's hands by the afternoon, just in time for about two hours of deliberating before breaking for the weekend. On Monday, all eyes were on the courthouse. Many people believed a verdict was on the way, but at the end of the day, nothing. Nada. Tuesday brought more of the same, but also some activity from the jury that caused that familiar knot in your stomach reminiscent of Karen Reed's first trial. And I got more on that in just a moment because Tuesday the jury sent four questions to Judge Beverly Kanoni, most of them related to the three charges against Karen Reed, second degree murder, vehicular manslaughter while operating under the influence and leaving the scene of an accident resulting in death? One question was asked about timing. Was Karen allegedly under the influence when she left John o' Keefe at the house on Fairview Road? Or was she under the influence later when she went back out to find him at 5am and the judge's answer was since it wasn't listed in the indictment, it wasn't appropriate for the judge to give them a time frame, and she told the jury it was simply up to them to decide. Another question asked whether video clips from Karen Reed's media appearances could be considered as evidence. And to that that was easy. The judge said yes. And then came a question about convicting Karen Reed on a lesser charge, basically splitting the charge of vehicular manslaughter while operating under the influence. They wanted to know if it was two different things, two separate charges, manslaughter and also operating a vehicle under the influence. And that question led the judge to issue a new verdict slip to the jury for the manslaughter charge, which included additional language to make it easier to understand. The judge explained that the jurors could convict or acquit Karen Reed of the manslaughter while operating under the influence charge, but that they could also convict or acquit on all of the lesser included charges, too. And when the judge asked if that made sense, several of the jurors nodded. The fourth question from the jury was the most revealing question. What if they agreed to acquit on two of the charges but could not reach a unanimous verdict on the third pearl clutching moment? Judge Kanoni called it theoretical and would not give them an answer. And if you were getting deja vu all over again, you were not alone, because that is exactly what happened last year when the jury ended up hanging and causing a mistrial. They had agreed amongst themselves that she wasn't guilty of murder or manslaughter, but they couldn't agree on the remaining charge. And because of that, they turned in the jury form. Empty. If the parties in court had only polled the jury last year and asked them, one by one, the folks on the panel would have told them, the lawyers and the judge that indeed, they had reached a decision on those top two charges. And we likely would not have been here at a retrial. But at the end of the day on Tuesday, it kind of seemed like a repeat of the first trial. The jurors went home without reaching a verdict. And then, however, today, it was a totally different day. On Wednesday, after nearly 16 hours of deliberation stretched across four days, the jurors finally came to an agreement. Not guilty on everything except that little lesser included charge of operating a vehicle under the influence. And the sentence on that one, a single year of probation, not even jail time, which is basically the standard sentence for any first time offender facing that charge.
- [05:23]
Vinny Politan
Mr. Foreman, on docket number 2282 CR 117001, murder in the second degree, what say you? Is the defendant, the bar guilty or not guilty? Not guilty. So say you, Mr. Foreman. So say you, Charlie?
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Ashley Banfield
No.
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Vinny Politan
No. Do you agree? Yes. Do all of you agree? Thank you. 002, what say is the defendant at the bar? Not guilty or guilty?
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Ashley Banfield
Not guilty of.
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Vinny Politan
Is not guilty or guilty of that charge or any lesser included charge.
- [05:56]
Ashley Banfield
Thank you. Specifically, number five, operating under the influence.
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Vinny Politan
Of liquor by operating a motor vehicle with a blood alcohol level of 0.08 or greater, correct?
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Ashley Banfield
Yes.
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Vinny Politan
So say you, Mr. Foreman.
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Ashley Banfield
So say you all?
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Vinny Politan
Yes. 003, what say is the defendant at the bar leaving the scene after accident resulting in death? Defendant not guilty or guilty.
- [06:19]
Ashley Banfield
So say you, Mr. Foreman.
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Vinny Politan
So say you all?
- [06:22]
Ashley Banfield
Yes. Jurors, harken your verdict as the court.
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Vinny Politan
Records that you, upon your oath, say the defendant on.001 is not guilty on.002.
- [06:30]
Ashley Banfield
Is guilty of operating in the influence.
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Vinny Politan
Of liquor and.003, not guilty.
- [06:35]
Ashley Banfield
Thank you. All right, jurors, everybody please be seated. Jurors, we thank you for your service. We're going to send you back your services. If you need. I'd like to come back and talk to you a little bit afterwards. Thank you very much. Wow. So if you missed it, when the verdict was read, it was so loud outside the courtroom, outside the courthouse steps, it was so loud, you could hear it all inside the courtroom. It registered on the microphones of the courtroom, and everybody watching the live courtroom feed could hear the. It sounded like a sporting event, like when the final goal is scored in the Stanley cup or soccer or football or whatever your sport is. It was absolute mayhem, like, wild. And Karen's, you know, hands were shaking as she was, like, wiping her tears away from, you know, her eyes, realizing what this meant, what the rest of her life meant. She was a free woman. She would never go to prison. Yeah, she got a year of probation, but what evs, right? And then Karen Reed spoke outside the courtroom, and that was huge as well. I just want to say two things.
- [07:54]
Vinny Politan
Number one is I could not be standing here without these amazing supporters who have supported me and my team financially and more importantly, emotionally for almost four years. And the second thing I want to say is no one has fought harder.
- [08:13]
Ashley Banfield
For justice for John o' Keefe than I have.
- [08:17]
Vinny Politan
Than I have and my team. Thank you.
- [08:20]
Ashley Banfield
Through all of this wild mayhem outside the courthouse steps the News Nation reporter that I work with. You know, I do a banfield show at 10pm Each weeknight on News Nation. And during my show, I asked Marcus Espinosa, who's our national correspondent for News Nation, about an interview that he conducted with a woman who was a Free Karen Reid supporter. I felt like that interview was so, so insightful as to what the people are like that have given up so much of their time and their treasure and their energy to be there at that courthouse for Karen Reed. And this was that moment. Take a look. I've been out here since November 22nd. Okay. We were right from the beginning when they started doing all the pre trials and we were here last year. And I stand out with the movement and I also stand out on a bridge by myself for a year and a half because I believe in justice for John o' Keefe. My brothers are all police officers and I believe in honest police officers and that's what I stand out for. Did you happen to know the Reed family in any way or Karen? No. And so a lot of people hear that and say, why are you out here supporting a stranger? Right. I'm out here because I'm standing for justice. Because that could have been me. I could have gone with my brother to an after party and something could have happened. Joining me now is someone who was also right there outside the courthouse today in the sea of all those people. Court TV's Vinny Politan is an Emmy award winning legal journalist, a lawyer, a former prosecutor who's been covering the justice system for over two decades. He was one of the original faces of Court tv. I worked with him for five years and he has led the gavel to gavel coverage of the nation's most high profile trials for decades. Now here's our conversation about the Karen Reid wrap up today. Vinny. Oh my God, what a moment. I could see you in the crowd. You were like surrounded by pink. Take me there, explain. Give me the whole feel.
- [10:22]
Vinny Politan
It was unreal. You know, I went up there for. I was up there earlier in the trial and I was there last year for the first trial and there was a crowd, right? There was a crowd. And I kind of knew who they were. Most of them were locals. And I went up during the trial this year and there were less people. They had put more restrictions on where they could be, what they could say. But they went to court and they got the judge to relax some of the rules and where folks could be. So by the time it came to the end of the trial, all of that had resolved itself. The rules changed and then the closing arguments are on a Friday. So now everyone, including me, has the weekend to get up there for the beginning deliberations. And I was like, I want to go up there, my expectations where there's going to be a little huddle of people and I just want to be in the middle of this little huddle. Oh, my. First thing Monday, I get there, and it is. I mean, I can't even park where I normally park. You've got this registry of deeds which has this huge park parking lot. And I'm waiting like it's Christmas for someone to come out with their bags, you know, carrying their deed, and take their spot. So it took me like, 15 minutes to park. And then I finally get there, and they had just arrived for the morning deliberations. Alan Jackson, Karen Reed and the team, the defense team. And it was packed. Packed. And then you start talking to the folks and you figure out what's really going on here, is that it's local people. There are people driving from North Carolina and Texas planning family vacation detours, just converging on this little sleepy town of Dedham, Massachusetts. Wow. I wasn't expecting how large it actually ended up being, but it was unreal. I'm so glad I experienced it, because I don't know if we've ever had anything exactly like this, and I know we'll never have anything exactly like this in the future. It was unreal.
- [12:34]
Ashley Banfield
So, okay. And I was curious about that, because for this trial, I'm here, and for Casey Anthony, I was there. And for Jodi Arias, I was there. For oj. It was a broadcast thing. I wasn't there at the courthouse, but I felt like it was the same thing. The insanity, the noise, the cacophony. As soon as the verdicts are reached. Did you get the sense that they were the same as those other trials?
- [13:00]
Vinny Politan
Yes and no. There are aspects of it that are the same, but the premise of why they're there is so different. O.J. simpson, the crowd was sort of divided what they thought about the case. Right. It was a divisive case that way, but almost evenly divided. There were some racial aspects to that as well, and that was that scene. And OJ was a celebrity. OJ's a celebrity. Michael Jackson's celebrity, biggest star in the world. Casey Anthony. People were there, not in the numbers that were here. Casey Anthony. The media had the huge camp. People showed up not in these numbers, but the people that were there were the pitchfork crowd. Right. We've got this evil woman. We believe she's guilty, she's a killer. We want to see blood, we want to see her convicted. Jodi Arias, Sort of the same thing. Overwhelmingly conviction. Prosecution. Yes. This is a woman accused of murdering a police officer who was her boyfriend. And it is over. I found two people in a crowd of, you know, it had to Be a thousand or more that were there. Two people that were not there to support Karen Reid. And the overwhelming majority of them believed not that they didn't just not prove it, but that she was factually innocent and that she was framed. It was a conspiracy, it was a cover up. And there are other people responsible. So the reason they're there is different. So the vibe is different, but the other aspects are there, right? People are showing up, you know, some people dress for the occasion. One woman wearing a German shepherd mask imitating Chloe the dog, holding a sign. I bit him, I bit him, I bit him. But the other big difference, Ashley, is when you were there during this verdict watch. If the normal ambient noise of hundreds of people talking to each other is happening, that doesn't mean anything. But when everybody goes silent, that's when you knew something was happening. And there was this sign that Alan Jackson and Karen Reed would use for the crowd because part of the reason they were allowed to be right in front of the courthouse was if they kept their mouths shut. Because the courthouse paper thin walls and windows where you can hear everything inside. So they put up the sign. I think this is it. I think I'm getting it right. Which is sign language for I love you. So she does this, Alan Jackson does this. The whole crowd is doing this. And there's this dramatic deafening silence in the street where you just hear maybe some cars drive by, but there's a thousand people not making a sound. Unreal.
- [16:00]
Ashley Banfield
That's incredible. I thought it was sign of the horns, you know, from the concerts. Like whenever you go to a Judas Priest concert. I didn't realize they were doing love with the extra thumb, but that makes perfect sense.
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Vinny Politan
Yeah, I thought it was because Alan Jackson's from Texas. I thought it was hook em horns.
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Ashley Banfield
Hook em horns.
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Vinny Politan
I'm like, is that what it is? People like, no, no, no. It's sign language. And I never learned sign language. I don't have anyone in my family, you know, that needs.
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Ashley Banfield
But also learned it. How did they all get on the same page, Vinnie, with that?
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Vinny Politan
Well, they're all connected the world. And the other difference between Casey Anthony and the other ones is these folks are all connected through social media. They're all following the same streamers, they're following the same people who are posting on TikTok. So information travels so quickly. And to get.
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Ashley Banfield
Hopefully they're following us. Hi, guys. Yeah, you know, they're probably still kind of. They're probably very deflated all of a sudden because if the community has come to an end based on this shared, you know, the shared result. What do they do now then, Vinnie? What do they do now to be a community?
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Vinny Politan
It's not over. The man who started the whole Free Karen Reid movement is still under indictment.
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Ashley Banfield
Turtle Boy?
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Vinny Politan
Yeah, Turtle Boy, Aidan Carney, he's still facing charges. He got some of them dismissed. But he still has a trial coming up. So if his trial goes forward, you're gonna see a lot of the same people show up at the courthouse. I don't think you're gonna get the out of towners, but the locals, they will be there. I mean, they're already holding free Turtle Boy signs at the same time they're carrying free Karen Reed signs. But he was the one when he came out of the courthouse today, he got the second biggest ovation. The biggest, obviously, Alan Jackson and Karen Reed and Dave Yannetti and Robert Alesi when they came out. I mean, deafening. But the same thing for Turtle Boy when he came out. He's the one that got this whole thing started. Then it took on a life of its own. But he still has the case pending. There's a potential civil trial as well for wrongful death.
- [18:12]
Ashley Banfield
So you think that the family of John o' Keefe is gonna go down that road and go for. I mean, wrongful death is hard once you got an acquittal, isn't it? I mean, not O.J. but it's tough.
- [18:22]
Vinny Politan
It's tough, but the standard is lower. But the discovery rules are wider. What I'm thinking about with a potential civil case is that Karen Reid has to be deposed. If they want to call her, if the defense wants to call her, she's got to testify. I mean, if the plaintiff. Plaintiff, Plaintiff, yeah, the plaintiff calls her, she's got to testify. So that changes a lot of things. I think discovery from Karen Reid's side will be wider in scope as well, in going after who they believe is responsible. So there could be new information that turns up during this civil case as well.
- [19:00]
Ashley Banfield
Vinny.
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Vinny Politan
But I think the first thing is the Turtle Boy trial.
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Ashley Banfield
So I'm gonna talk about that in a second. Cause I am super interested in why people feel the way they feel about Aiden and the specifics of the charges against him. We get it with Karen, right? They saw, oh, this was all a. This was a setup. The action happened in the house and then they framed her. With Turtle Boy, it's not so much a framed, but I know there are people who feel that it was retributive. Let's talk, though. First, about the civil business, because that jury pool is the same pool. So what are the odds you're gonna get any jurors who aren't a lot like the people wearing pink?
- [19:36]
Vinny Politan
Every jury's different. I mean, every jury's different, but, yes, it is everywhere. You know, every public poll of people who are voicing their opinions, it's like 80 to 90% pro Karen Reid. But it's not just. Like I said, it's not just for the majority of them. They didn't prove it. They don't have the evidence. It's, she didn't do it. She's factually innocent, which is way, way, way different. You know, you look back at the O.J. simpson case, and I think there were people that was thinking, well, you know, maybe he did it, but they didn't prove it. There was some doubt. There were some problems with some people here. These people are extremely passionate about him not doing it, and that seeps into the community as well. Yeah, so they'd have to. They'd have to figure that out. We know most civil cases settle, but at a minimum, there will be the discovery process, and I think it'll be much more expansive in the civil case. I don't know if the civil attorneys will make this stuff as public. We'll see before the trial, but it's definitely not over. And especially for the o' Keeffe family, I mean, it's a gut punch because they believe Karen Reid is 1000% responsible for this. And, you know, there wasn't much of a reaction. But you think about what's happened to the family. They've lost a daughter, they've lost a son, they've lost a son in law. Grandparents are raising these, their grandchildren now.
- [21:04]
Ashley Banfield
Grandchildren who've lost three parents. The tragedy that has befallen the o' Keeffe family is really overwhelming, which is why I wondered, Vinny, honestly, do they really want to keep this going or do they just want to move on and put this behind them? I just don't, you know, I don't know how much money you're going to get in a civil. You'll get maybe the justice you're looking for, but it's a bit like blood from a stone at this point. Karen Reid is probably going to have to pay Alan Jackson whatever she can. Most of it's pro bono. But do you think that John o' Keeffe's family really has the stomach for more?
- [21:39]
Vinny Politan
I think they may. I think they may, because, I mean, there's. I think There's a level of anger, and the anger may actually be amplified by the verdict. And it's not just. And it's not aimed at the jury. It's aimed at Karen Reed in the defense and Turtle Boy in the way they approach this and the way they pointed the finger everywhere. They think this is all 1000% not legitimate, that this is smoke and mirrors, this is defense tricks, this is unfair. They didn't play by the rules. So I think that may actually further motivate them. But. But you're right. I think it's a decision they have to make as a family. And my guess is they may take into consideration the children as well. You know, do you. Do you want to move on from this for the sake of the children, or do you want to pursue it for the sake of the children? So I think that's absolutely in the equation, but we'll see.
- [22:35]
Ashley Banfield
And again, the children. This is Uncle John. This isn't dad. It's Uncle John who became, you know, dad. So it's a slight, slight difference in what you want for those kids. But. But again, it costs money to mount a civil action. It takes money, and I don't know that you're looking to recover it. There aren't millions at the end of that rainbow. There's no major pot of gold in Karen Reid's family.
- [23:00]
Vinny Politan
No, there isn't. They do have money, though. I mean, they have money. I mean, she was driving a Lexus LX570. Throughout the course of this trial, I wanted to find one because I wanted to show the viewers, you know, the height, the. The. How the interior works, what happens when you put it in reverse, all that stuff. These cars are rare because it's the luxury edition of the Lexus SUV. These cars, like, $90,000, $80,000 used. Like, it's an expensive car. So there is some money. She's. She's a woman who was very accomplished in the. In the finance business, then went into teaching. Her father's a teacher as well, but she made money. I don't know how much is left. But this is not your typical murder defendant who has nothing. I mean, she has money. She has money.
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Ashley Banfield
I do feel like anything she's got, she owes to Alan, because this is. Look, Alan Jackson is not a public defender. You and I covered Alan Jackson. Do you remember when we were at Court TV together 20 years ago, and Alan Jackson was the prosecutor and Phil Spector, and we saw then. Oh, yeah, What a dynamo he was. But he's in private practice and he's been doing so, so much of this for free.
- [24:15]
Vinny Politan
Yeah, well. And the finances, to me aren't 1000% clear on how. How the money was spent that was raised because it was over a million dollars that was raised for her defense.
- [24:27]
Ashley Banfield
Oh, he would be owed at least that for two trials like that. He was traveling the whole time, too. Like, he's leaving his family in California and traveling and staying in hotels for basically for two years plus, you know, to help her defend this case. I remember talking to him, you know, at a time when he was allowed to speak, and he talked about how he had every right to walk away from this, especially after the first verdict, but that he simply believed so deeply in Karen's innocence that he could not morally walk away from her. And it didn't matter what it would cost to his family, to his lifestyle, to losing two years of private practice for a guy like him who draws a hell of a salary.
- [25:11]
Vinny Politan
Yeah. I think at the end of the day, though, how high profile this case became and how they demonstrated their abilities in the courtroom with core TV cameras recording it all for the world to see. You know, that's going to lead to a lot of things in the future for him. Like, even he'll be like the go to guy because this is on the heels. A few years ago, it was the Kevin Spacey case that, like, never even made it into a courtroom. He got that whole thing. It magically disappeared. And with that track record and that reputation, you know, people that get jammed up, people with money are gonna be going to him.
- [25:54]
Ashley Banfield
He's like the new Garagos or maybe Mesero. But Mezuro was so elusive after Michael Jackson's case. Right. Like, we thought Mesro would be everywhere with his shock of white hair, but he was very quiet. He did not like the spotlight.
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Vinny Politan
No, he didn't. And Tom Ezra was, I think, cut from a different place. Like, he cut his teeth, you know, doing stuff for the Southern Poverty Law center and doing civil rights litigation. And he came up that way as brilliant in the courtroom, but different. Alan Jackson dresses sharp. You know, he's got a plan. And I think he fits more of the mold of someone who, okay, I've got a big case. This is the guy I gotta get. Whether it's in New York, whether it's in Los Angeles, wherever he needs to go, he'll go. And the people will pay for him to show up and be the attorney for the case. I mean, he's that good. We knew it beforehand. Now a lot More people know it.
- [26:54]
Ashley Banfield
Do you think, like I think about Jose Baez as well, taking on Casey Anthony's case? She didn't have any money, and he was private practice at that. I think he was. Before Casey came along, he was the guy that went into the jail all the time and helped, I think, prostitutes. Wasn't that it? Get their charges reduced. And then somebody in the jail said to Casey when she was arrested, oh, you should call my guy Jose. And isn't that how he got the case? And suddenly, boom, he's in the zeitgeist. He's everywhere.
- [27:22]
Vinny Politan
Yeah, we watched that trial. He was. What he's great at is relating to the jury because he's a people person. Like, he can sell his story and his case to the jury. He knows how to communicate with the jury.
- [27:37]
Ashley Banfield
He could sell a story, that's for sure. I remember hearing that opening statement, and I threw up a little in my mouth when I was there in court. Like, are you kidding me? You think they're gonna buy this shit? And they did.
- [27:50]
Vinny Politan
Oh, they. They absolutely did. Now, the thing. And to go back to that case, the thing that he did, every morning, he would turn to the jury and say, good morning, ladies and gentlemen.
- [28:01]
Ashley Banfield
Good morning. Yeah.
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Vinny Politan
And in the beginning, you know, people were like, you know, the jury's like, what's going on? By the end of the case, it was, good morning, ladies and gentlemen. And then in unison, all the jurors would say, good morning. And, you know, we should have known at that point, but we did. We didn't realize. We didn't realize.
- [28:18]
Ashley Banfield
Well, guess what? I know you and I have disagreed before on the tv, but I have often felt that Baez did not win that case. Yes, he was affable. Yes, the jury loved him, and that was great. I feel like Linda Burdick and her team, they lost it. They asked way too big a question of that jury. They asked them to jump over this massive chasm of saying, didn't Casey hold her kid down and put the tape over her mouth and watch her die? And the juror said it afterwards. They never showed us anything that proved that Casey was that diabolical. We think she did something. We just don't think she did what they said she did.
- [28:58]
Vinny Politan
Yeah, well, there were. There are two problems with that trial. First, the investigation. They did not recover Kelly Marie when they should have. When Roy Cronk called investigate, called police. The first time the officer shows up, he slips in the mud, and then he, you know, goes away.
- [29:16]
Ashley Banfield
I don't want to be here. It's a swamp. Yeah.
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Vinny Politan
Yeah. And three months later, after torrential rains and everything that happened to that poor child's body in the woods, and there was no evidence left there. Then there was the problem with the computer search. They didn't realize that Casey Anthony was doing all of her searches on Firefox. And that's where the most incriminating searches were. The defense knew, but prosecutors didn't realize it. They blew it there. And then number three in the courtroom, the contrast between Jose Baez. Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. And Jeff Ashton and Linda Burdick, who were very experienced and very good, but there was a level of arrogance.
- [29:57]
Ashley Banfield
Oh, a level. Look how gentle you are. That's euphemism for they were assholes. I mean, honestly, they were so rude. I was there every single day, and they were so rude to me. I couldn't believe it. I just thought, I've not covered a trial where I'm somehow the antagonist. You know, Like, I just felt very strange, and I could feel it in the courtroom when they were in the.
- [30:19]
Vinny Politan
Well, yeah, and it was a problem. It's a contrast. You're the messenger for the case. If the jury doesn't like you, are they going to trust you more than the other side? And I think that was a huge part of the case. I also think the jury held the prosecution to an extreme standard of proving everything beyond a reasonable doubt, not just the elements of the crime. So that's where I am. But, you know, that's water under the bridge at this point.
- [30:49]
Ashley Banfield
Oh, my God. Look at you and me on a Karen Reed's story. And we always head back to. All roads lead back to Casey. Let me ask you about Karen Reed. Not that, you know, when Court TV covers a case, they cover it like nobody else. It is the. I mean, you're literally taking a lice comb through American jurisprudence. You don't miss anything after it's over. I'm curious if you have any thoughts, especially since you're a lawyer, about Karen Reed's life now, because she's beloved as a rock star by a lot of people. Things I'm sure she would rather forget and not have in her life. And she is hated and has a target on her back by others. What do you think about her life now?
- [31:33]
Vinny Politan
I. I think she's in a different place than other defendants who've been found not guilty. O.J. simpson was a celebrity. He was used to the spotlight. He reveled in people that didn't like him. But when push Came to shove. People liked him in public. You know, he did very well in his life after being found liable for those murders, for those killings. Those deaths.
- [31:58]
Ashley Banfield
Murders. Maybe not his murders. Although, I mean, come on.
- [32:02]
Vinny Politan
Right. And then you have Casey Anthony, who was the most hated woman in America. She hid from everyone. Karen Reid is overwhelmingly. It's a positive vibe that people have. You know, it's 80, 90% think she was a victim of a wrongful prosecution. So she's in a different place than other folks. I could see her going in a couple of different directions. I could see her. First of all, I think she's going to move out of that area. Perhaps out of Massachusetts. Yes, I wondered that. I absolutely believe that, number one. Number two, I could see her doing a couple of different things. She's bright, she's smart. She was actively involved in her defense. Could she go the route of other people who we've seen found not guilty and perhaps go to work for an attorney like Alan Jackson?
- [32:53]
Ashley Banfield
Like Alan Jackson in la?
- [32:57]
Vinny Politan
Who better? She understands the process of these cases. You know, as an assistant, you don't have to be an attorney, but being an assistant and helping and speaking with whatever it is that needs to be done, she's lived it. She understands it because I've seen others do that.
- [33:13]
Ashley Banfield
I mean, Lori Valo, right. Lori Vallow became her own lawyer based on her lived experience in a courtroom, quote, unquote. I know, I had to bring it. I had to bring it.
- [33:25]
Vinny Politan
But the Green Bay Packer, I'm trying to remember his name. I remember he was a tight end for the World Champion Packers. He was found not guilty. He ended up working for his lawyer, Skylar Richardson, the cheerleader.
- [33:40]
Ashley Banfield
She did, too.
- [33:43]
Vinny Politan
Yes, yes. She goes to school, but she went to work for her. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Wow. Yeah. So sometimes, because they've gone through all.
- [33:51]
Ashley Banfield
This, did she make it to college? Because this all happened after prom in high school. For anybody who doesn't remember Skylar's case, she was at prom pregnant and told everybody she was just a little heavy, had a baby. The baby's remains were found partly charred in the backyard in the fire pit, and she was up on murder charges. So she. Did she go to college and end up graduating and working for her lawyer in that route?
- [34:14]
Vinny Politan
Yeah, well, she started working directly after the trial. She was working for her lawyer. She was bright. And then she began school. I think she began going remotely. I just want to correct. That was the key to the case. She said, because you still remember that way, that the charred remains at the Trial, it was clear that the expert who said they were charred remains quickly changed their opinion. You're right, that was a crucial fact because she had confessed to this on video. It was a false confession because the person who was interrogating her to get her to confess believed that the remains were charred and got her to admit that she lit the child on fire when she didn't. And the state's own expert said she didn't. So for me, in my career, that was the first time a verified false confession, and that was part of the case.
- [35:11]
Ashley Banfield
I've heard of a bunch of them. That Fox guy, I'm trying to remember where he's in one of the northern states. He was accused of killing his two and a half year old. I think he was sleeping on the couch. She vanished, they call it. They grab him. He's got another child. He admitted. He said, I did it. I banged her head against the. The bathtub and I killed her. And then I raped her. And then I dropped her in the stream. And he didn't. They got the DNA and it was a guy was a sex offender who was already in. In prison. And he said, I. They showed me the murdered pictures of my child for five days straight in custody, and I just said anything to get out of there. And that happened. I've heard that before. Those. Those false confessions.
- [35:51]
Vinny Politan
No, but this is the first time for me in a court TV trial where it was the difference. Like it was the difference in the case. So I could see Karen Reid going into doing something like that. She was a teacher before all this. I don't think she'll go back into doing that, but I could see her doing that. Or she could get into this world of podcasting if she wants to.
- [36:16]
Ashley Banfield
Boy, could she ever. Because she's already got the fan base, not just the thousand or so that you are standing with today. She's got all the folks that are listening to us right now. This is so such a massive podcasting and YouTube trial.
- [36:30]
Vinny Politan
Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, she could tell her story, but then she could tell other people's stories. You know, people who've been through what she's been through, who, you know, believe in their innocence and believe that the system doesn't work all the time on the front end, you know, feel a calling. And how does she express that? Does she express it by working for a lawyer and helping others, or does she do it by telling her story to the public and, you know, telling other people's stories? I think those two are very possible for her very.
- [37:03]
Ashley Banfield
Yeah, it's really smart. I hadn't actually thought about the podcasting part because you're right. Yeah, she's. She's got it. She's got the story. She's got the chops. I want to ask you something. In all the years that I've been doing this, and I hate to say it's coming up on 40, I feel as though I know Vinnie. I'm old as dirt. I have a really good doctor. I feel like women really get, you know, they get the boots taken to them when they're a defendant, like Jody and Casey, et cetera. And in this case, it's the opposite. I saw a real blue collar town that, you know, certainly post George Floyd sticks by those police officers no matter what. Right. Especially since George Floyd, they need the support. Right. And here was the opposite. Here's a woman they didn't know from Adam. Right. Pretty successful, perfect target for hating. Thin, gorgeous, well dressed, all the reasons you should dislike her, as is typical when it comes to women in the public eye. And it flipped. And I wondered if you thought, there's a piece here where a lot of these folks from Canton and Stoughton and the surrounding communities in Massachusetts said, these cops have been dirty for years and we all have someone in our lives who got screwed. Do you think that's a piece of this?
- [38:26]
Vinny Politan
Oh, yes, it is. Yes, it is. Because when you're walking through all those people in front of the courthouse, a lot of people are telling me their stories because I'm asking the questions. Sometimes they just come up to you and volunteer the stories of why they're there and what happened in their family or what happened in their town. There was a healthy dose of skepticism already. And you did correctly identify the crowd. This is the crowd. And a lot of them I was speaking to, oh, yeah, my brother's a cop. And I said, your brother's a cop and you're here. I said, well, what does your brother think? She says, oh, yeah, he thinks Karen Reed's innocent also. So it goes pretty deep. It's really amazing. And this is a crowd that I would, you know, if you look at them in terms of the world of politics, would be to the right. These are people that are law and order people traditionally. And I think Turtle Boy was that way as well. But they saw an injustice. So from their perspective, they wanted to get justice and turn this around and not let it happen in this country, in this buffer zone, which was the area where speech was infringed upon, was limited Right. In what you could display on your shirt, what you could say in your sign. Nothing about the case. No chanting, no screaming, all that sort of stuff. They're handing out American flags. The American flag became a symbol for Karen Reed with her supporters.
- [40:03]
Ashley Banfield
I'm surprised they didn't make a pink one. You know, like after the. You saw the pink ones?
- [40:08]
Vinny Politan
There was one huge pink one. We interviewed her. Yeah.
- [40:12]
Ashley Banfield
Wow. Well, you know, it's interesting because on my News Nation show, there was this really cool interview that our reporter did in the field with one of the supporters wearing a pink undershirt and a white shirt over top and a ball cap. And that lady said, I've been out here since November of 2022. I go out on bridges. I met every preach trial hearing. My brothers are all cops. And I had to do a double take and I had to rewind the interview and listen to it again to make sure I heard her right. And she said, I could be Karen Reed. Any of us could be Karen Reed. And I started to think that she's like the similar story for, for a lot of the folks that you interviewed that you just talked about.
- [40:49]
Vinny Politan
Yeah. When I was a prosecutor, the people who were supporting Karen Reed, those are the people I wanted on my jury. And it just got flipped. It got totally flipped.
- [41:00]
Ashley Banfield
I wondered, you know, as I was watching today, and by the way, I was watching you, I just loved your coverage today. It was so good. You were standing there like it was like an election. You're in the middle of the giant, you know, sea of people and the cameras up in the ceiling and they're looking down on you in the crowd. It was great. And you're walking through this crowd. I was wondering as you were walking through the crowd, if it weren't such a busy day with asking for a reaction, you know, to. For all these people, like, how do you feel? Why are you here? That kind of thing. I would have liked to ask them, do you or don't you support Trump? Because something about this group made me feel that there's actually a lot of varied opinions among. I think some would and some wouldn't. And they don't even know how much they have in common.
- [41:45]
Vinny Politan
Yeah, I stay away from all politics. I know I am the alternative to politics.
- [41:55]
Ashley Banfield
That's what I do.
- [41:55]
Vinny Politan
I don't touch it with a 20 foot pole, but I saw some red hats for sure.
- [42:01]
Ashley Banfield
Yeah. I just kept thinking, like, I am sure that there are Trump haters and Trump supporters in that sea of pink, and not one of Them knows that the other one is supposed to be their enemy. Instead, they're all unified in this one mission together, and they appreciate and like each other. And I kept thinking it was a metaphor for the country. We are all kind of like that. We're all very, you know, we are very supportive of this, this. This experiment that we're in the United States and we just have these little divisions that we've just allowed to, you know, get the better of us.
- [42:35]
Vinny Politan
Yeah. And the way the world works, it's like if you're for one candidate or another or one party or another, that doesn't mean you have to see every thing in the world, every issue differently. Right. And that's the way a lot of people are doing. Well, they're for this, so I'm against it. Why are you against it? Because they're for it. That's absurd. But that's where we are in the world right now. That's where we are everywhere. But I think you're right. In this crowd, there's a mix. I would say, though, it leans more towards the red hats than the color. Colored hats. Yeah.
- [43:16]
Ashley Banfield
So next thing, Turtle Boy is on the agenda. And I touched on it a little bit ago, but, you know, when you talked about this crowd looked at Karen Reid as factually innocent, do you think they have the same feeling about the charges that Aiden Kearney is facing that Turtle Boy is facing?
- [43:36]
Vinny Politan
Yeah, he was the one who was fighting. The way they see it is he's the one fighting the government. He's the one exposing this stuff. So they go after him. They're going after him because he is exposing what they're doing to Karen Reid. So it's retribution. Now you get inside a courtroom, it's going to be a First Amendment case. Like where. Where. Where does the First Amendment protections, Where do they end and where does crossing that line begin? They tried to hold him in contempt a couple times. He's won every time. That's a judge making those decisions. Some of the charges he's had dismissed, but there's still some lingering. I think there's still a decision that has to be made by the da. It's very personal. I mean, the DA posted this whole message, and it was about Turtle Boy. The message talking about how you're going after and you're villainizing these witnesses. They're presumed innocent. This has got to stop. This needs to stop right now. And the same office that went after Karen Reed and indicted her went after Turtle Boy. Now I think they're bringing in A special prosecutor or whatever. But, like, come on, everything's in place here. It's a First Amendment case. It's an important case for folks like us to figure out where that line is going to be drawn in a state like Massachusetts. If they do pursue it, if there is a conviction, this whole thing will be appealed as far as it can go, because the issue is that important. I've seen some of his videos and what the allegations of witness intimidation. And I don't know. I don't think it's a clear case one way or the other. I think we're in the gray area. And when you're in the gray area and you've got the First Amendment, which way should things fall in our country, I think is the question. You don't want to intimidate witnesses. You don't. Just like you don't want, you know, back in the day, John Gotti going out and intimidating witnesses. You don't want someone doing that in a case like this. But what is witness intimidation and what is protest, free speech, et cetera? That's what the case will be about.
- [45:50]
Ashley Banfield
You know, let me ask you something. You know how so often we see juries that just dislike the defendant, and sometimes the lawyers stand up and say, I don't even like my client. But that's not what we're here for. We're here for the law and the letter of the law. But we all know that juries are people and they have a gut. Right? They have a gut feeling. And if they really, really dislike the guy, they sometimes nullify and they say, he's innocent, but let's get him anyway. Or the opposite. He's guilty, but let's let him go. With Turtle Boy, there are a lot of videos that are pretty, let's just say, verbally aggressive. And I wonder if the prosecution of Turtle Boy will play those videos for the juries so that they might dislike him. I don't know if that's a strategy here or not, but you know how it works, right?
- [46:42]
Vinny Politan
Yeah. Well, that strategy was used on Karen Reed. They played the clips of the media interviews. Didn't do anything. Yeah, There's a lot of salty language. There's a lot of name calling.
- [46:52]
Ashley Banfield
Oh, I want him to burn to death. I hope he burns to death. Like, really?
- [46:55]
Vinny Politan
Yeah, things like that. Yeah. But I think the only statements that will necessarily come in are ones directly related to witness intimidation or if stuff comes up as he testifies or is cross examined, but he may not do either. It may just be a Very much a legal argument that, ladies and gentlemen, you know, what is this? You know, it'll be interesting to see the way it plays out. I mean, I'm. I'm curious. I think the reaction, though, of his followers, the Turtle Riders. They'll be there. They're going to be there for him. I mean, he got him to show up for Karen Reed and that case snowballed. Obviously, I think they'll show up for him as well. And it's a much different case. It's a much, much different case. But there's still a lot at stake. A lot at stake. And could you imagine the irony that the man who started the movement and advocated for Karen Reid results in Karen Reid being found not guilty and him potentially serving time in prison? It's possible.
- [48:00]
Ashley Banfield
I would see riots, maybe smaller than the crowd that was out there today, but I would see people getting very angry and being very aggressive, maybe even violent outside a courthouse if that were the case. Cuz he's their hero.
- [48:11]
Vinny Politan
Yeah. Spending this much time with all these folks, I don't see violence as an, as an alternative. I see the words coming out of their mouths, but I don't see any sort of physical violence. The relationship between the police, who were Massachusetts state troopers and some local police outside ended up being very good. There was good communication.
- [48:33]
Ashley Banfield
Oh, that's good.
- [48:34]
Vinny Politan
Between the Free Karen Reid movement and the officers. In the end, there were a few brush ups here and there, but it was, I mean, for the amount of people, the tight space, the intensity of the situation, it was pretty amazing. And I think law enforcement did a really good job as well. They had a plan, they executed the plan and they made it okay for everybody. Because one other thing I want to make sure you understand about the crowd that was there. There's. Yeah, a lot of people that are in like our demo, our true crime demo. Right. Women between the ages of 35 and 60, ton of them. But there were also college kids who were showing up. There were young mothers with their young children that were there because on Monday, it was the last day of school and summer vacation began.
- [49:26]
Ashley Banfield
Right.
- [49:27]
Vinny Politan
By the time the verdict comes down, that was one of the things they were saying. Please, please remain calm. Do not rush, do not run. There are children here and there were children everywhere. I know I was posing for pictures with them. There were a ton of kids there. So it was that type of atmosphere.
- [49:47]
Ashley Banfield
Like a picnic, like a giant picnic. Oh, wow. Okay. I would be remiss if I didn't just look ahead. We're all Covering Sean Combs right now, and we're winding down to the last maybe week and a half of it. And then looking ahead even further to. I think we're 50 some odd days away from the start of Kohberger's opening statements. Love to get a comment from you about Diddy. And then I'd love to get a comment from you about Coburger. Can you start with Diddy?
- [50:18]
Vinny Politan
I'll start with Diddy. It's a difficult case for him. It's a difficult case. You know, years ago, I think the celebrity factor was much more of a positive. Now it's a little bit of a potential negative at times because of the understanding of the power that comes with it. Obviously, we don't have cameras in there, so I cannot witness firsthand the witnesses, but if the testimony is anything like the way it's being portrayed, I think it'll be difficult for a jury to say, have a nice day, Mr. Combs. And in these cases, you know, where you're talking about, you know, racketeering, RICO and all of that, it's tough to get out from under. It really is tough to get out from under. And they've done enough of the damaging images and descriptions that I think there's enough there. I think there's enough there.
- [51:19]
Ashley Banfield
And you know how the feds work, right? They don't take a case to trial unless they know they're going to win it. And they typically, what is it, 98% or 95% of the time they win their cases. The feds. Is that about the stat?
- [51:32]
Vinny Politan
Oh, absolutely. And that's because they'll investigate a case and they'll know who did it. But they're like, there's like a 10% chance we might not win. So they either give the sweetest deal ever or they don't bother. They just don't bother with it. They hate losing more than anyone. State prosecutors, like I was a local prosecutor. Crime happens, local police solve it. They arrest someone. If they get indicted, we go in and we try it, and whatever happens, happens. We lay out the facts and we let the jury make the decision. You know, there's not that same feeling like we have to win every case. We believe in every case, but if we lose, it's not the end of the world. But we're going to try. The people we believe are responsible. Feds are much, much, much different. And the people in charge of the offices are much, much more political in nature. Like, they have aspirations. You're a U.S. attorney for a district, you Want to be a mayor, you want to be a senator, you might want to be president. I mean, that's who's attracted to those positions.
- [52:35]
Ashley Banfield
And that means you want to win. So the other thing with this case, I've been looking at a lot of the, the folks in the comment sections like that, but I follow the comment sections like nobody. I just love hearing what people think out there. And of course, like you said, it's not televised. People aren't in court. A lot of them are just going off headlines that they hear. And there is a massive, massive, you know, wisdom out there saying, oh, for heaven's sake, this isn't sex trafficking. He. He's guilty of beating up Cassie, but that statute of limitations is passed, and this isn't sex trafficking. I want you to touch on something, if you can, from the, from the prosecutor mind. People don't know the difference between commercial sex trafficking and elite sex trafficking. The commercial sex trafficking earns you money. Elite sex trafficking gets you action. You get as much sex as you want. Like Weinstein and say Cosby and say Peter Nygaard and, you know, the allegations here, Diddy. People who use their fame, power and cash to get as many girls as they want, and they use their people to make it happen. People don't see them as the same thing, but effectively they are the same thing.
- [53:50]
Vinny Politan
Yeah. And the blueprint for the case against Diddy was, was, was laid out during the R. Kelly case. I mean, that's basically what it is. It's the R. Kelly case. It's. It's escalated because, you know, you have a bigger celebrity, more money, and I think more extreme alleged behavior in the case. So.
- [54:09]
Ashley Banfield
And some Epstein in there, too, because that's Southern District.
- [54:12]
Vinny Politan
Yeah, yeah. You have all of those elements in there. And I don't know, I have a hard time thinking a jury's going to look the other way. But we're in a different place right now, a different level of skepticism of the government. So I don't know who's on that jury. I don't know where they came from, what their, what their thoughts are about it. But between the response to Mangione Luigi and you just don't know. But, but for Diddy, he still has his supporters out there, but there's a lot of people who at one point supported him, but have turned on him as well. And they're not, they're not there all the way. Like Michael Jackson. People didn't turn on Michael Jackson. His fans stayed with him all the way through. People turned on Diddy. People turned on Diddy. So I think it's. I think it's a little different from that perspective, but it'll be interesting. I think it's a true test of where we are when that jury comes back. It's a true test of how high is the level of skepticism of the government and the people in power versus those accused. Has it really flipped that much that a case like Diddy's could be, ah, back off. Let him go. We'll see what happens.
- [55:32]
Ashley Banfield
And it's a very different thing to, you know, dabble in the case in the media and check out a headline here and there and sit on that jury for nine weeks and hear it all. And then summations. I mean, it is all about the summations. When you're nine weeks in to tell that jury, oh, by the way, you've heard a lot, but this is what you need to focus on. This, this, this, and this. Did it happen or didn't? And that's a big deal. You know, if the. If the prosecutors and Maureen Comey are good and they really make it simple for them to understand what sex trafficking in RICO really is, then I think you're right. I think he's done for. If they're lousy at it, and I don't think they are, maybe he's got a shot.
- [56:11]
Vinny Politan
Yeah, yeah. And simple is the key. Right. You think of RICO and racketeering, it's almost by definition complicated. But that's your job. Just like the job of any television reporter is to take a complicated story or situation and explain it in a way that is simple. That's what a lawyer has to do. That's what a prosecutor has to do. I used to. Every case that I had when I was a prosecutor, no matter what the factual pattern was in my open, ladies and gentlemen, this is a simple case. I'd say this is a simple case because if it wasn't, it would be much more difficult to convince them beyond a reasonable doubt. So I would feed them, listen, this is a simple case. And then I made it as simple as possible, and that's what you have to do. But these are the most complicated of all charges, so we'll see how it turns out.
- [57:02]
Ashley Banfield
It's so funny that you say that. I've always thought that you were so good at that. Like, it's why you're so good at your job, because you take very complicated jurisprudence and you make it just common parlance. And that's really important because when you're on live television, you don't get a do over, the broadcast keeps going. And if you lose people and the foundation isn't built, they'll never understand the rest of it. So it's another thing that journalists do. A lot broadcasters. You ever notice when they want to say the same thing that you just did, ladies and gentlemen, it's a simple case. They say one simple word, and that is look, look. And it means this is simple. Let me break it down, okay? Let's talk real quickly on Idaho, because lots is happening there. Just today, Ann Taylor basically said, if you don't give me more time, I am basically going to be ineffective as a lawyer. I am not going to be able to do my job. And that will be ripe for appeal. Ineffect assistance of counsel is going to be the thing that's raised if you don't give me more time to do the adequate representation that this death penalty eligible man deserves. Do you think that's just, you know, saber rattling or do you think she's got a good point?
- [58:13]
Vinny Politan
Well, I think you say that right. I mean, she's what I call a true believer in her calling. Right. Like she wants to make sure this guy doesn't end up on death row. And she'll do anything and everything in her power as a, as an advocate to do that. And one of those things you do is, yeah, you throw yourself on the sword almost saying, I can't get it done. I just can't do it. There may be a way for the judge to issue a ruling on it where he can preserve whatever happens afterwards based on his decision, meaning that he's not setting it up in a way that it could be overturned on appeal. And he'll know, the judge will know the magic words to put in the ruling in the decision. So it'll probably be well thought out because if you have to delay it, like, this isn't like delaying a little case. Let's delay it a month. So many different things have to be in place. It's a long trial. You've got to first summon all these potential jurors. Then you've got to block out the calendars for the lawyers, the witnesses, the investigators and the judge and the courtroom and the facilities. And we're already in a jurisdiction. It's not really their case, but it is their case now. So if you have to move this thing from August, the first place you can move it to would be January, maybe up until April. You can't go past April because you can't go into the summer because it'll be even more difficult to get jurors to hang out that whole time. Next thing you know, you're back to August again.
- [59:49]
Ashley Banfield
So wait a minute. Are you telling me that. I mean, look, people don't understand scheduling in courts. It's just like, well, what's wrong with September? Are you telling me there is no way that Ann, you know, Taylor can't be just asking for another month or two?
- [60:04]
Vinny Politan
A month or two? Now you're running into Christmas. Are you really going to have a juror sitting there deciding life or death on Christmas Eve? Okay, that's not fair to a juror. That's not fair. I mean, you know, where I've come in my career now I am. I am becoming a juror advocate. That's the way. And one of the reasons is I just served on a jury about nine months ago, I got the call.
- [60:30]
Ashley Banfield
Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you.
- [60:32]
Vinny Politan
I ended up as an alternate, but I served my civic duty, and I have much more of an appreciation for jurors, and I think that's going to end up being my calling if I ever sit down and write that book. Is what we do wrong and how we do jurors wrong in our system of justice? This Karen Reid case was a huge example of it. But could you imagine making people, even if it's a week before Christmas or if it's Thanksgiving, you're deciding life or death. That's not fair to put a jury through that. This is an emotional thing for them. It is difficult. They don't sign up for it. They get called in to do it. It's like getting a draft notice. You're not, you know, you're not volunteering for it. You're getting drafted into doing this.
- [61:19]
Ashley Banfield
Let me ask you this, because I think that currently the timeline has the case starting August 11, you know, openings, and then wrapping up early November. So if you gave, let's say, four or five weeks, you would still be wrapping up early to mid December, two weeks prior to the holidays. Are you saying that even that is too much to ask?
- [61:40]
Vinny Politan
That's too much for my taste. And there's a lot of things that. A lot of things that can go wrong. First of all, I wouldn't want to have a trial of this nature bumping into two holidays, potentially, because, you know, there's potential delays every time we try a case. Every single time we try a case, there's a potential for a delay. Whether it's a few days or a week, things happen today.
- [62:04]
Ashley Banfield
Juror and Diddy had vertigo and they had to shut down at 9:30.
- [62:08]
Vinny Politan
Yeah, and you put that thing. I think, I really believe if you don't start in August, you gotta go to January, February, March, early, early April. And that's it, that's your window. Then your window closes until the following August. Here's the thing though, like the defendant's locked up, so there's no real harm here. He's not gaining any sort of a benefit. So that's one part of it. He's the one that wants more time. But there are witnesses, there are other things happening. There's victims, families that it's difficult for them. And we know the older a case gets, it doesn't get more ripe for prosecutors.
- [62:55]
Ashley Banfield
Memories fade, people disappear.
- [62:59]
Vinny Politan
Always a ploy. So I'd be interested to see quadruple.
- [63:05]
Ashley Banfield
Murder, very complicated crime scene, lots of DNA, 64 terabytes I think was the stat I heard today that Ann Taylor said in the discovery, I still got to get through 64 terabytes and I'm 50 plus days from start. I've always felt like, man, two and a half years is nothing for a murder case, especially a quad with death penalty. I wouldn't have been surprised if it took three or four years to get to trial. How do you feel about that?
- [63:32]
Vinny Politan
Yeah, when I practiced in New Jersey, that was pretty normal. One year, no way. Two years, good luck. Three years more normal. And there were cases that were four and five years old that still hadn't come gotten to trial. It's not as uncommon as people might think. Now if you have a defendant who is saying, hey, speedy trial, speedy trial. Yeah, you gotta try the case, you've gotta move the case. But cases can get that old and it always is advantage defending, you know, the older the case gets, always advantage defending. So there's some times where more reasonable.
- [64:09]
Ashley Banfield
Doubt, you know, because again, the fading memories, the evidence disappeared from the lockdown.
- [64:14]
Vinny Politan
Things can happen, people can pass away, people die, evidence can be lost, issues come up. So I think that's part of it. I think they know that it's, it seems like it's a relatively strong prosecution case.
- [64:29]
Ashley Banfield
I'm trying to remember if you and I worked together at Court TV again, a bazillion 20 years ago, there was a case about a woman who.
- [64:40]
Vinny Politan
Lit.
- [64:40]
Ashley Banfield
A fire on the porch of the house of, I think her son's ex girlfriend or ex wife. And the house went up in flames and a family of five on the third floor died. She admitted that she just wanted to pour some oil and Burn the oil and scare her. And the woman was clearly mentally disturbed. And when they caught her, they put her in cuffs. They said she was being detained. They didn't read all of her Miranda rights at the same moment. So some of her statements were taken out. But she was held in pre trial custody for 10 years and then had the trial. Do you remember that case? Was that something prior or after Court tv?
- [65:25]
Vinny Politan
No, I do. It sounds very, very familiar. I can't remember the name of the.
- [65:29]
Ashley Banfield
Case, but the trial, I want to say Massachusetts, potentially. I feel like it might have been.
- [65:33]
Vinny Politan
Fact pattern rings a bell. It absolutely rings a Bell. But yet 10 years. There was one case in New Jersey when I was a prosecutor that was, it became a joke because it was like 12 years old. Like the case that was never going to be tried. He was in prison on other convictions and was still being detained. But there was always something that would come up, always something. And would just get pushed, pushed, pushed and pushed again.
- [66:01]
Ashley Banfield
Oh, you know what? My producer Lindsay Holler is just saying? Kathleen Hilton for the woman who burned the house down and killed the family of five on the third floor. Kath, good one. Thank you, Lindsay. And then don't forget Elizabeth Smart. That took almost a decade because of mental health issues and, you know, incompetence issues. And the prosecutors wanted to medicate the perpetrators into competency and they were fighting that as well. And so that took better part of a decade as well. Not quite 10, but better part of a decade to get to trial. Man, we've talked about everything. What have I missed?
- [66:37]
Vinny Politan
I think that's it. Don't forget Stephen Stern's trial.
- [66:42]
Ashley Banfield
Yeah, that's coming up too. That one's so upsetting. It's just sad. I feel sick and sad on those facts, you know, just uncomfortable.
- [66:50]
Vinny Politan
And there's more to that story. There's more to that story. And I think that's when that trial happened. Well, there's two trials, right? When the first trial happens, then the second trial happens. Everyone is going to be wondering about what else happened here. What are we not hearing about whether it's connected to Madeleine Soto's mom or if it's connected to where did all these images go? Why were these images saved? And I remember Stephen Stern's parents talking about him coming into money, but he didn't have a job. Where did that money come from? So I think there's untold parts of the story that may or may not be part of the trial. And I think that's where a lot of the Focus will be when those cases happen.
- [67:32]
Ashley Banfield
Do you know what? You and I should have been going for drinks after work all the time at Court TV when I was there, like 20 years ago. Because the conversation has been so delightful. And I can tell you why we didn't go for drinks. Because I was raising a brand new baby and a one year old at the height of when you and I worked together. And I remember just being like, basically a zombie coming to work and a zombie going home from work. But, you know, nowadays, if we were doing the same thing together, I think we'd go for drinks all the time.
- [68:05]
Vinny Politan
Yeah. And I was coaching baseball.
- [68:08]
Ashley Banfield
Oh. Cause that's exhausting. Come on, my friend. I miss you like crazy. And I'm so thankful that you gave me all this time and all of your brilliance. Let's do it again.
- [68:21]
Vinny Politan
Absolutely. Great to see you.
- [68:24]
Ashley Banfield
Vinny Politan, you're the greatest. I cannot thank Vinny Politan enough. I just. I adored all of my time that I worked with Vinny. I have always turned to him for help and advice and legal commentary and legal opinions. And he has been so affable and magnanimous with his time and his expertise. I can't tell you that I would be here today doing true crime coverage the way I do with the understanding that I have if it weren't for Vinnie. And also Jack Ford, who worked at Court TV with me as well. I literally sat beside a Yale law professor for five years learning American jurisprudence. But, man, oh, man, did Vinnie ever help me through all of those years. And clearly, he's helped us understand everything about this case. Not just inside the courtroom, outside the courtroom as well. I'm Ashley Banfield. Thank you so much for listening. And remember, the truth isn't just serious, it's drop dead serious.