← Drop Dead Serious With Ashleigh Banfield
Drop Dead Serious With Ashleigh Banfield
Nancy Guthrie Mystery: New Stalking Timeline & All The Haunting Questions Plaguing Police
00:58:02
Loading summary
Transcript134 lines
- [00:00]
A
If you work in university maintenance, Grainger considers you an MVP because your playbook ensures your arena is always ready for tip off. And Grainger is your trusted partner, offering the products you need all in one place, from H VAC and plumbing supplies to lighting and more. And all delivered with plenty of time left on the clock. So your team always gets the win. Call 1-800-GRAINGER visit grainger.com or just stop by Granger for the ones who get it done.
- [00:31]
B
Hey everyone, I'm Ashley Banfield and this is drop dead serious. Welcome to the program. It's great to have you here. If you're just joining us for the first time, thank you. And also subscribe. It's really easy and it's free and you know, great benefits if you're a member. Thank you so much for your membership. I love having you. And I just did a members video for you, so go check it out. I was on the ski hill and I stopped in the silence and I did a members video. So it's there. So it is Day, Day 45 in the Nancy Guthrie investigation. And it's like hard to believe that we're counting this high at this point, especially with some news that just came out that's very distressing. Megyn Kelly's sources told her that they have no suspects, nothing, nothing to go on. A few weeks ago, I also had a source who said they don't have enough of a lead or a suspect to get a warrant. So in the last few weeks, I would have thought that might change. But if Megan's sources are accurate, then it apparently hasn't. That they are truly stymied, it would seem, which is very upsetting. One other thing to report about some dates of significance. We had heard a fair bit about January 11th being a key date that, that neighbors had been asked about January 11 and then the police said they wanted a bigger window of video from January 1st to January 30th. Right. Well, it turns out we may know why January 11th now was so significant. Michael Ruiz from Fox Digital says that two of his law enforcement sources say that January 11th is significant and maybe why neighbors were asked to check the doorbell cams because the picture of the perpetrator on Nancy's doorbell cam where he is seen without the gun and without the backpack, that picture, we've all been told, was from a different night. Except that the sheriff said, where are you getting that? Except every media outlet had their sources saying that. Michael Ruiz says two of his law enforcement sources say that picture was from January 11th and that's why that date has taken on such significance also. That's a Sunday, by the way. So could be, you know, early Sunday morning, right? Could be after midnight Saturday night. And then also Saturday, January 24, has now become a date of significance. Brian Entin says that neighbors of Nancy Guthrie that he has spoken with have reported that police have been asking them for any information that they might have of anything unique or different in the neighborhood around January 24th. Again, that's a Saturday, and it's a week before Nancy Guthrie disappeared. So those two dates are now sort of coming into a little bit more focus. We're also learning Megan heard this from her source. I also heard it from my law enforcement source, actually, couple weeks ago, that the sheriff's department used polygraph tests to help clear the Guthrie family. And my source went further than Megan's source and said and also used their volunteered devices. Meaning here's my phone. You can take it and you can look at it. Which in law enforcement is weird only because it's standard operating procedure. You have to check a family when some vulnerable person is gone or missing. Just like Ed Smart, he was thoroughly investigated in the disappearance of Elizabeth Smart. Devastating as it is, it's just what cops have to do because the stats typically say the majority are abducted or harmed by someone close to them. So in this particular case, to use polygraphs and volunteer devices is an odd way to clear somebody. Maybe there's more to it, but that's what my source told me. My source also said there were several people in the department who were upset by that, but they are now clear. And on top of that, something we've been waiting for for 44 days, 43 days. Because today's day, day 45, is that they have finally returned Annie's car to her. Can't tell you why they kept it that long. We're gonna get to it in a moment, because one of the people who knows this business inside and out is Brian Enten's producer, Alison Weiner. She's so good at this job. She was down there in Tucson for days and days and days and days, cultivating sources, getting all sorts of amazing tips, and lots of really good interviews that you saw Brian actually doing. Alison Weiner's also written a really, really cool book because she has been there and back. She's a lawyer. She's been a journalist forever and ever. And she's covered some of the biggest cases. And the book is about four of the most high profile cases. It's actually called Murder and the Media behind the scenes of four high profile murders. So Alison's gonna join me in a moment to tell me what was going on behind the scenes with Brian Enten and her as they were trying to dig on, deal with this law enforcement and what they were doing and what they weren't doing and all the back and forth and, you know, retracting this and changing that. Alison was in the middle of it all. And why I called Allison was because there are so many open ended mysteries and questions that have been left unanswered in this case. Like big, big mysteries, questions that defy logic. And I am actually running down all of them with Allison and she's got really good insight because like I say, she and I, it's not our first rodeo. We've been to a few of these, right? And so we've seen how some veer away from standard operating procedure and most crimes and how others stay right on track and how those that seem to veer off come right back. So you're going to hear a lot of the strategies and how you tackle some of these unanswered questions and then she'll tell you whether she thinks it's going to be solved and whether we'll ever find Nancy Guthrie mysteries in the Nancy Guthrie case. So, Alison, the first biggest question I have so far is why they released the crime scene so early.
- [06:51]
C
Big mistake. I mean, I think that every, even the sheriff said something about maybe he had acted precipitously, which was probably not the word he used, but he had acted. You know, the crime scene was released before the FBI had a chance to do the DNA. I mean, I, from what I understand, I mean, there was, you know, he, he did his thing. I kind of think that the, the sheriff thought that this would be over in 24 hours. I think he thought it was like an abduction nearby, that we didn't need to scrape the walls for DNA or we do all the things that the FBI might do or even that his own techs might do, because it seems to me for, for just that amount of time, they couldn't possibly have gotten everything that they needed to get. And then the crime scene tape goes up again when the FBI arrives and they start doing all kinds of other things. And I don't know if the sheriff was aware of the advances in technology and what can be done or what can't be done, because even when you hear him talk about DNA and splitting DNA, he doesn't sound like the people that do it. Yeah.
- [08:02]
B
And it's a big question for Me, because I just wonder, what was it that they saw and did that made them feel so confident that we got everything we need here? Because my source said blood drops inside match the blood drops outside. Back door, wide open. Cameras, plural, smashed. And so I just feel like that doesn't sound like something you think you're gonna solve real fast.
- [08:28]
C
It's strange, too, because he actually said in his first press conference that he thought it was a kidnapping, which I have never heard law enforcement say. Exactly. She was taken by force. You know, all those kinds of things. You don't usually hear law enforcement give you the theory of the crime in the first 24 hours. I mean, they don't. They don't know who did it. They don't know what the point is. Yes, she was bleeding. My feeling always was that somebody got in there, you know, something bad happened inside, that they roughed her up, and then they took.
- [09:04]
B
I mean, and whether they took her alive or dead is a whole other question, which is a big unanswered question. Why do you think they stopped the search? Also on day two, in his news conference on February 2, he said, we're drawing back. We've had a busy night. You know, we've done every. Thrown everything at this. We've had a busy night, but we're. We're scaling that all back. And this is now more of a crime scene. I thought, okay, we can walk and chew gum at the same time. Why do you think they stopped the search?
- [09:35]
C
Well, I. You know, I don't know. I can't get inside the sheriff's head. But I do believe that it's a very difficult area to search, and they probably needed to have, like, special dogs. I actually was talking to somebody who works with, you know, searching with dogs and, you know, trying to find people. And in that particular area, there's so many cacti. There's so many things that can stab you. I mean, I would sit down and go, ow. Like, wherever you were. I mean, it's a very dry and not like Palm Springs or other deserts that people. Or, I don't know, the Sahara. You know, like, it's all smooth and everything. It's just very rough. So. Yeah, so apparently you have to pick the dogs up to get them over certain patches or they get thorns in, like, their paws. I had a whole conversation with someone about it. Maybe he didn't have the proper supplies. Or we could go with the obvious answer, which is, bad move. I don't understand it.
- [10:35]
B
I mean, I've never heard. Well, the Terrain's too hard, so we're shutting her down. I mean, they searched the Andes for a sports team. I mean, you know, talk about harsh terrain. Well, yeah, I'm with you on that one being just an unanswered question. I don't know if we'll ever really understand why. Why also, do you suppose that we were told again on day two, February 2nd, the news conference that Sheriff Nanos held, there's no cause for concern. There's nothing to worry about out there. There's no danger to the community.
- [11:08]
C
I mean, I just keep going back to what the sheriff said. He would say things and then he would walk them back. He would say. Say that, you know, it's. We've done all of this. And then he would walk it back. You know, the kidnapping thing, we never heard about. After he first said the kidnapping thing, like, I mean, after he decided what the cause of the crime was, we didn't hear about it again. So I. I think that he was out of his depth in terms of how to deal.
- [11:36]
B
He used kidnapping with me. I did an interview with him on that Monday, February 2nd. He said it's a kidnapping. Yeah, but I just think, you know, he said, I mean, have you seen that?
- [11:48]
C
Have you seen, like, a law enforcement person come out? Unless they have received a ransom letter. We have received a ransom letter. It is.
- [11:56]
B
We've seen it on video.
- [11:57]
C
Yeah.
- [11:58]
B
You know, seen an abduction on video.
- [12:00]
C
Right, right, right. But why are you saying it's a kidnapping? Because she was taken by force, or maybe somebody took her by force to kill her. I mean, God forbid, you know, But, I mean, it's just there's. There's other reasons.
- [12:13]
B
Yeah. It sounds to me like he thought she was taken alive because that is a kidnapping, as opposed to she's been killed and the body's been removed, which he. How would he know? And so that's why when he says things like, I've known since day one, he said, you know, we believe we know why he was here. This is just last week. We believe we know why he was here and have known since day one what I know what? Because on day two, you said, there's no cause for concern. There's no threat to the public. Again, those are my words. But paraphrasing so.
- [12:49]
C
Well, he said it recently.
- [12:51]
B
Yeah, I mean, he's saying there's a boogeyman now and says he's known since day one that there's a threat to the community. He's known. We believe we know why he was here. And have known since day one. Well, on day two, you said there's no cause for concern. So which one is it? That there's a boogeyman out there. And you've known since day one because on day two you said there was no threat.
- [13:14]
C
I have to say, I mean, I think when you look at the sheriff again, I'm going to have to say he was out of his depth. He was busy being territorial. He wasn't giving things to the FBI. They have superior resources to local law enforcement. They have a different budget than local law enforcement. He's sneaking gloves to his old lab. That's going to take a year when Quantico could do it in a much faster way or there's some private lab that they could pay. I don't. I. You know, I mean, my feeling is, is that when there is a DNA situation, we usually get a pretty fast answer. I mean, when it's. When it's. If they want to tell us that
- [13:54]
B
Florida lab is no joke, they are great. They have solved cold cases and they've done remarkable work. I'm not so wound up about that lab being used. I am wound up about a sheriff who calls off a search, says there's no concern for the community, wraps up a crime scene in 24 to 36 hours, but at the same time is towing, under a warrant, the daughter's car, and then searching the daughter's house and asking the daughter's neighbors for their video and collecting. And my source said the sheriff and his folks were zeroed in on the family members on Annie and Tommaso. And I feel as though the reason he was saying there's no threat to the community on day one is because he thought that's what he believed. And my source is airtight. What they were doing and what they were looking at was 100% Tommaso. Have they changed their minds and not told us? They've changed their minds because now they believe there's a boogeyman. This is what is so disingenuous about this sheriff. He shat all over everybody who dared to suggest that the reporting that we got out of the department was wrong. It turns out by their own actions, it looks like that's what they thought and they may have screwed it up and lost valuable time.
- [15:08]
C
Well, my feeling about that is I don't name a suspect before the police have named a suspect when I'm doing reporting, because I do know that when somebody goes missing, the family are the first people they look at. Family, friends, everybody. So I wasn't surprised that they were looking at her car, that they were the last people to drive her home. You know, all of those.
- [15:31]
B
It's weird. In my business, it's weird. The victims, like, even Ed Smart's car wasn't towed. His house wasn't photographed in terms of, like, in the depth of the night for three hours. Like, weird stuff happened. And I think we can all look back on it now. And this is why I do this reporting, because law enforcement does lie to us. And I am a huge fan of law enforcement, and I know they have a hard job to do, but my boss is truth. And when we see stuff like this, I want to be able to hold them accountable. Because in Moscow, Idaho, they lied to us. And Brian Kohberger walked among us for six weeks. And I would have pulled my kids out of there and brought them home had I known there was that threat to the community. So the fact that he's saying there's nothing to worry about here.
- [16:12]
C
Why?
- [16:12]
B
How would you possibly say that? Because as it turned out, he was wrong. He was wrong. He was focusing, according to my source, on entirely the wrong direction. And now that guy is out there, and we've lost valuable evidence to catch him.
- [16:26]
C
Well, I have to agree with you that. With that, I think he's myopic. I mean, he was myopic about what he was doing. I think he was chasing a bit of glory there. You know, the press conferences with the quiet voice. Because I had sources that say he doesn't have a quiet voice.
- [16:43]
B
I've heard the same, that he's very vindictive and nasty to a lot of people in the department. And Brian Enten's done great work with you down there finding. You found those people who said, yeah, I was a. I had my difficulties with this guy. He's mean.
- [16:55]
C
Yeah. Even the deputy sheriff, who had served for what, 30 years, more probably Rick Castigar, said that he just agreed to be his deputy to help him show him the ropes when he took over as sheriff. But his behavior, again, was not professional, and he quit. And this guy is like a real sheriff. I mean, he's just. He's close to the vest. He knows how to formulate an answer so that it doesn't give too much away. I think it's really important, and it's frustrating to us as reporters, but it is very important in the beginning of an investigation not to tell too much. Let it just play out. Don't tell us, like, what you're doing.
- [17:40]
B
It's why you have a pio. It's why you send the pio out to the microphone. Because the pio is only given what you give the pio to tell and everything else the pio has to say. I'm sorry, I don't have an answer to that. Or I can't answer that. Or. Oh, my answer for that one is it's part of the. I can't answer that. It's pretty simple. It's crime 101. And listen, I've been doing it 38 years, so I've been to this rodeo a lot. And I could tell right away something was up with this guy. There was just something disingenuous about what he was saying. And then what I was hearing from inside the, you know, the department.
- [18:11]
C
Well, I will tell you my own personal experience. We had a interview set up with him after the first press conference or second press conference, sort of blending together a little bit. And the pio, who's super nice, said, oh, he can't see you now. It was very haphazard. Went back on his word. We waited a half hour, 45 minutes, when we could have been out investigating. You know, it just. He just didn't treat people the way you'd want to be treated.
- [18:40]
B
Well, Alison, how about just putting out statements saying we will not be doing interviews or having press conferences, and suddenly there's an interview with NBC. What do you mean? Suddenly there's another interview with a local. Like, wait, just stick with whatever it is you're saying and be consistent, because now there's very little faith. Let me go to this next one. The inside of the home. Again, one of the biggest questions I have is where is the crime scene inside the home? My source said there's blood droplets inside the home that match the pattern. Outside, straight up and down, blood droplets. No sign of a struggle. But where? What did they find and where?
- [19:15]
C
Well, the only thing I went by was that Nancy Guthrie. Not Nancy, Savannah Guthrie, said that they pulled her out of her bed in the middle of the night. So that's the best I could think of, that it's somewhere around in that bedroom. Because, I mean. And again, I'm guessing. I mean, I don't have the proof of that. I just know what she stated, and it was very specific.
- [19:37]
B
Taken from her bed in the dark of night was what Savannah's exact words were.
- [19:41]
C
And she's a. She's a broadcaster.
- [19:43]
B
We don't say broadcaster. She's not going to mess with it. Yeah, words are important. We know every single word. And in a Case like this that's under the microscope, Savannah of everybody would know every single word was being. People were hanging on every word.
- [19:55]
C
That's what I. That was my takeaway from that in terms of. I do have to say one more thing about the sheriff. The thing that is that I found the most despicable or difficult with the sheriff. I shouldn't say despicable, but. And I know he was under a lot of pressure, but when somebody goes missing or they are abducted, the best friend you have is the media. We will get out the pictures, we will get out the word. We will have everybody looking. Anybody see anything in that neighborhood. And if you say the search is over, then we report the search is over. So nobody's searching anymore. I mean, so many times, I have to say, I always feel kind of proud about it that we can help. This is a good thing. Like when Riley Strain went missing and he ended up in the river like that. We spent weeks trying to see if we could get assistance and kept it in the news every night. You know, I just found.
- [20:52]
B
Petito was found by streamers.
- [20:59]
C
Everybody has a phone. Everybody can go out looking. How do you turn down the Cajun Navy, too? What's that about? I mean, obviously they don't care if their dogs get stuff in their paws or horses.
- [21:12]
B
Well, they've got the protection. They've figured it out. These are all professional folks who do this for a living. And it's not like they haven't seen the Arizona desert before. People know what the Arizona desert was. What do you think the source of the. This is the other big question. The source of the unknown male DNA and where it may have come from that made them think it's important.
- [21:39]
C
I think that in the struggle that there was some, you know, even putting her in a bag, you know, putting. Getting her to drag her out. Our FBI experts said, actually with the droplets that that's somebody just bleeding down who's being carried, because they're all like, we're just. Or they might have sneezed. There's a little tiny part where they might have sneezed. But it was like her head came, you know, probably, I think, with the droplets. And I think that she was passed out. I think they did something to her, maybe knocked her out. I mean, that's what I kind of thought. And she's still bleeding, like hit her across the face or something and then carried her out of there, maybe out the back door. I mean, you know, they went out the front door because there were blood drops there. I'M sorry. I'm sorry. Yeah, that was my mistake. I think that. Yeah, I think she was carried. And that's what the FBI guys think when. When they look at.
- [22:32]
B
Because the pattern, you know, you're not walking someone who's dripping blood because you're not walking through the blood as it's been reported to me from my sources. It's not. It's not stepped in and walked through. And it's not. Doesn't appear to be stepped in in the front door either, where we got the pictures.
- [22:49]
C
No. And there's no foot. What. What one of our sources said is. And you've had her on before. Maureen o' Connell said an interruption in the blood drops. If somebody's walking and they're all, like, just totally on. So. Yeah, no, I don't know if she was dead when they left her because she, you know, still bleeding. I don't. You know, I mean, I'm not a doctor, but I kind of think they knocked her out and then they took her. And I. And I kind of think they took her because she. They had their DNA all over.
- [23:24]
B
I mean, I look at the whole notion that we went through weeks of, you know, this whole ransom bullshit, and there's Nano saying, and I've known since day one. What. Wait a minute. We believe we know why he was here and have known since day one. Then why did you waste all our time with ransom bullshit? Like, again, this mystery of, like, how could you say you knew since day one when you were behaving totally different day one than you are now? It just. It's mystifying.
- [23:50]
C
It's not even mystifying. It seems disingenuous.
- [23:54]
B
Yes, that it's mystifying that someone behaved that way. I think that's what it is. And like you said, Alison, the media is your friend. They'll do anything to get this word out. I mean, it's. It's a. It's. We scratch each other's backs in that way, right? It's our product to talk about this missing woman. It's your product to try to get the word out, to get more tips and get those eyeballs. Someone will know and someone will solve it, and it usually is just that small linchpin. And the media helps you find that linchpin. And so would the Cajun Navy. Yeah. So it's a. To me, it's mystifying why there's just been such rebuffing of all. Everybody that works in the business of, you know, true crime, their standard operating procedure. He just seemed to fly in the face of it. The other question I have is, and this never made sense, the sheriff said early on that Annie and Tommaso dropped Nancy off. Then he said Annie dropped Nancy off. And then he said Tommaso dropped Nancy off. And he told the New York Times, Tommaso dropped Nancy off. But then in the news conference five days later on Thursday, he said, let's just go with family. Like what, what was the point of obfuscating so blatantly? Why, why would that be? What, what can you see would be an advantage?
- [25:10]
C
I would see that he wasn't finding any evidence against them. I would say they seized the car. Yeah. They're looking into everything that they could find about them and I think they're not finding anything. So he starts to walk it back like everything else he did. You know, I mean, like every time he said something he would walk it back. I mean, and. And I gotta tell you, think about it. If your kid stood up and said, I've known from day one and they've been lying to you. I mean, proverbially, you knew for day one and you didn't tell me. Yeah, I mean, I just. I think that he began to see the writing on the wall that it wasn't then or there is no evidence that it was them, whatever. And then I guess he got some pressure to say that they cleared them. I guess, you know, I just. The only thing that I can juxtapose that with is that Savannah is busy making comments and statements trying to get people to help her find her mom. Meanwhile, the sheriff is busy walking back stuff that he said about the investigation that he shouldn't have said in the first place if it was going to be a family member. Like go through all of them, see what evidence you can get and then arrest them. We don't need to know all of that. You know, that's the way it works. Like the next thing you know, you see them parading somebody through like, you know, a perp walk.
- [26:32]
B
I mean, I. For that reason. Why in the ever loving God would they keep annie's car for 42 some odd days?
- [26:44]
C
You know what, I have to. Yeah, I have to disagree with you. I'm sorry to interrupt, but this is. When the FBI takes something, it takes a long time to get it back. And you have to.
- [26:53]
B
But the FBI didn't take it. It was. Or the sheriff that took it.
- [26:57]
C
But they.
- [26:57]
B
Yeah, you got 10 days. You got 10 days until you got to make extension after extension after extension when you get those warrants.
- [27:04]
C
But you have.
- [27:04]
B
So you got to have a reason.
- [27:06]
C
They sent pieces of the car to the lab. So, you know, we have a car that's been taken apart. Okay, when you take a car apart, it's gonna take a while to put it back together. And unless, you know, I think Annie and Tommaso and, you know, I mean, Savannah, they all had other things to do. I mean, they all have, like, there's a lot of cars there. We saw them all driving different cars. I mean, there were plenty of cars.
- [27:28]
B
I get all that. I get that. But this one is under the microscope, and it's causing consternation because lots of media were calling regularly, and the same answers kept coming. It's part of the investigation. And then the next one was, we're in the process of releasing it. And the next week, we're in the process of releasing it. And then the next week, oh, I'll have to get back to you. I mean, those are the kinds of things. Once again, if your true mission was to clear this family, for God's sake, why would you allow that to continue?
- [27:55]
C
Well, you know, I mean, maybe he was just trying to, like, support his thesis that he had announced to the whole world.
- [28:02]
B
Just.
- [28:03]
C
I mean, I. Every aspect of this investigation was broadcast. It makes me look shocked. I mean, I was at Brown for the shooting. You know, the shooting that happened in Brown and also happened at University of Massachusetts. We got very little information. We weren't even allowed near the door, like where he had entered to shoot. I mean, we got to the door eventually, I mean, because we are reporters, but, you know, it was just, you know, clamped down. And then when everything started to happen, we got to know and everybody started going to the places that they needed to know. But. And there were press conferences that were very much on point. They gave away very little, but they did answer some questions. So, I mean, there was a little bit of hostility, even at the Brown one, towards the media. I just don't understand. Certainly here in Los Angeles or in New York, they ask for the public's help. And asking for the public's help is like saying, media get that stuff out there. This sheriff, vindictive, insecure, in terms of how he's treated his staff, at least according to the people that I spoke with at length over the three weeks I was there and disorganized, by the
- [29:26]
B
way, some of those staff. Some of those staff, not to interrupt, but just because I'm on that train. Some of those staff complained that the sheriff, the tools that he used, in order to come to the decision to announce publicly that the family is all cleared, were polygraph tests and voluntary, you know, voluntary turning over of their devices, which to me is a bit weird because in my line of work, that's not enough to clear somebody. It's not enough for court of law, for starters. And anybody who gives you something voluntarily, a device voluntarily, it's not going to be the device that it's used. So it's. It's adorable. But it seemed weird to the, to the sources that I was talking to, and some of them were quite angry. Some of the folks in the FBI were very frustrated that the sheriff came out and cleared the family. And they were not prepared to do the same thing at that early stage, especially using the tools that were reported to me from my source that they said they used just polygraphs and voluntary, you know, devices.
- [30:29]
C
Well, I don't think the FBI wants to clear anybody till they solve the crime. I think that's normal criminal procedure. I, I've never heard somebody saying, we've cleared this person or cleared that person. I mean, with the Riley strain thing, none of those people were cleared. The family. I mean, like. And not that they were there at the time. I guess maybe that's a bad example. But I'm just thinking back to some of the different things, you know, even the guy, you know, I mean, like, even people that actually did it, you know, or. I mean, they just don't clear people. It's just not part of an investigative process. You. I'm sure Savannah said, stop saying that. I'm sure that the family gave major pushback. We're not going to cooperate with you anymore if you keep attacking my family members. So that's kind of where my brain went when I saw that weird clearing of people at the beginning of an investigation. I don't believe, I will say this on the record. I don't believe that those two were involved, but I do believe that that's not something you share with the media.
- [31:34]
B
Yeah. And you know, the other thing is if, look, investigations, it's 101, right. When someone goes missing and is a vulnerable person, the family's the first you look at. That's not new. That's not like it's not earth shattering news. That is standard operating procedure. So when the sheriff began speaking so glowingly of the Guthrie family, and you know, I think he was saying things like Toussaint's daughter and, you know, she's special to us. And I thought, look, you can feel that way That's. That's fine. You can't say those things because your job is difficult right now. You have to investigate. Just like for us, reporting, this was not easy to report on someone we've worked with and we love. But you've just. You've got to do your job, and you've got to be. You know, you've got to apply the same standards as you would on in any other case. I did feel like there was some favoritism, though. People refused. I don't know why. On day five again Thursday, the pre. The. In the press conference, the sheriff said, we've towed the car under a warrant, and it's being processed. And not one media outlet reported that. And I was shocked, because any other story, any other case, any other victim that would have been a lead. Oh, my God. They've towed the car of the daughter, and they. Under a warrant, and they're processing it. Not one outlet reported that. And I was just scratching my head, wondering what's happening here.
- [32:51]
C
Well, what is happening? Why is that Is like if you're towing somebody's car and you're, like, doing your investigation. I don't understand. Yeah, I mean, that's something reportable. We're looking into all of the family members. It's something we do. You could do that in a very simple way that you always do. The last car that she was in, it's the last time she was seen. There's a lot of reasons to take a look at that car. Like, did she leave something behind? Was she injured when she was in the car? I mean, who knows, you know? But I. So I didn't think it was strange at all. I mean. And, you know, they do boyfriends. They do best friends. They do. Everybody in that circle when somebody goes. Is. Get it. Gets abducted or murdered or God forbid, you know, whatever.
- [33:40]
B
Yeah. What was weird was that the media, again. I thought that there was an unusual dynamic that played out because this was a colleague of many in the media, you know, and they were treating everything with kid gloves. And they did not treat it like the other stories that we cover. We would have covered every. Every single development with someone else. But for whatever reason, on Thursday, Savannah Guthrie's sister's car is towed, and no one reported it.
- [34:04]
C
And.
- [34:05]
B
And the sheriff said it in plain language, in the language I just gave you. Yes, the car has been towed under a warrant and it's being processed. Wow. That would have been a pretty big headline. But nobody. It was odd. And I feel like the sheriff should have behaved in A different way towards the family. A family that he, because of his job, had to investigate early because of the way, you know, again, crime 101, you have to. But he was very deferential to the family early on.
- [34:31]
C
Here's an interesting thing. You know, in certain places, like if it was in New York or la, even Chicago, there are famous people that live everywhere. But in Tucson, it's a really small place, everybody knew Savannah. They, they went to school with her. I mean, every time I talked to somebody, oh, we were in high school together, I didn't know her that well, but I knew Nancy. So I think that there's a little role of celebrity that the sheriff, I mean, little. I think the sheriff grabbed onto that big and wanted to be part of that.
- [35:05]
B
I. You're probably right there. And again, it's, it's inappropriate because I
- [35:11]
C
gotta tell you, when the shit. When OJ was arrested, nobody gave a shit.
- [35:15]
B
Wow, really?
- [35:16]
C
When OJ was arrested, nobody was like, oh, my God. I mean, the people of LA were upset and we followed him and, you know, and went on the overpasses.
- [35:24]
B
But nobody was high fiving him at the jail when he was in intake and booking?
- [35:28]
C
Really? I don't think so. I mean, I wasn't there. But I do think that people understand that celebrities and bad things happen to celebrities, bad things happen to the families of celebrities, and that they need to be treated by, you know, an equal justice system. And I know that your viewers are going to go, well, OJ Wasn't treated by an equal justice system, but in fact, he was. The prosecution did a very poor job
- [35:51]
B
and he got a trial. Yeah, I'm glad you said that, Ms. Winer, because honest to God, when I worked at Court tv, Jack Ford was my partner. And he's just the most magnanimous partner I've ever worked with in broadcasting because he took every commercial break to teach me the law. He was a Yale law professor. And so I learned. I had five years of law school sitting beside Jack Ford. And he once said to me, whenever there's a trial result, it's wrong for people to say someone didn't get justice. It's just not the justice that one side of the courtroom wanted. But one side of the courtroom is going to leave upset, but it does not mean it's not justice. Justice is being offered this remarkable process that America has. It doesn't always go your way, but you still get it. And so whenever I hear, you know, justice for someone, it's going to mean justice against someone else. The way they. You know, the way they define justice.
- [36:47]
C
I totally agree with you. I. I mean, I'm a lawyer, and my feeling is, is that if you. If both sides are equal, then you, like, you fight it out. But this was a real mismatch in terms of. And I've said this to, you know, to Chris Darden, and I've said it also to Marcia Clark. I mean, it was a mismatch. And I watched a lot of that trial. I was kind of between jobs, and my mom and I would sit and watch it, and I was just like, 10 days of DNA, two weeks of
- [37:18]
B
DNA going down the rabbit hole. You lose people, you know?
- [37:20]
C
Yeah. So anyway, I'm just.
- [37:22]
B
It's what they said about Diddy, remember? Remember, that's what they said about the Diddy trials. Like, you went too far. I personally thought they did a great job. You know, I thought the prosecutors in Diddy did a great job. But I love this stuff. I love the arcane. I love the detail. Jurors don't. Jurors just say, talk to me like I'm five. I don't want to be here right now. What is it you're.
- [37:40]
C
Nobody wants to hear.
- [37:41]
B
I've never heard of this stuff.
- [37:43]
C
Nah, nobody wants to hear all the details.
- [37:44]
B
They don't want the details. Yeah, they need. They need it summarized. They need it, you know. Well, listen, I'm diverging, okay? So let's talk about what happened. This is the other big question. What happened at 1:47am versus 2:12am because we have the camera disconnecting at 1:47am but an image appearing on the camera at 2:12am and everybody's so confused about it. I don't think we've ever really figured that out.
- [38:07]
C
I have to say something about the cameras. This is my theory, and it is just a theory. There is no reception in Nancy's neighborhood. You can't talk to people. Brian Entin would be driving, and he'd go, I'm entering Nancy's neighborhood, especially around her house.
- [38:22]
B
Her house in particular was bad, very bad.
- [38:25]
C
And you could drive up the hill a little bit and get better reception. And this whole idea of cameras going in and cameras going out. And by the way, that even happens in the Hollywood Hills, you know, like, when it happens everywhere. But this area was particularly bad. There is, like, terrible WI fi. So I'm not sure, you know, the cameras went out on the, you know, night, or the cameras went out in the neighbor's house, like, with the dog. They had a plaintiff Dog as well. I mean, she had a dog barking that never barked. You know, when Brian did the interview, Brian Enten did the great interview with the neighbor. I believe that the dog knew that somebody who didn't belong was in the neighborhood or something was going on because the dog was barking and never woke up in the middle of the night. But in terms of cameras, the cameras went out and there's a jammer. And I'm like, you don't need a jammer to not be able to talk to someone in Nancy's neighborhood. The cameras go out, the phones go out. You just don't know when it's going to happen. And then you move a couple of feet and then you get the person back. So the camera thing, to me, I don't think it was anything that sophisticated.
- [39:32]
B
So. So what about this notion that at 1:47 there's a disconnect and at 2:12 there's an image that appears on what is supposed to be a disconnect. I took that to mean there are other cameras and other cameras picked up something when, say, the 1:47am camera was, my source says, smashed, disconnected, whatever you want to say. Michael Ruiz reported there were glass fragments down below the nest cam at the front door. So that would support what my source said. But being smashed off of its, off of its bracket.
- [40:01]
C
Right, right. Yeah, I, I believe that's true. And I think that there were times where the cameras are working. The thing that really troubles me, though, was the sheriff sort of saying that they have images from the backyard thumbnails and they're all fine, nothing nefarious going on.
- [40:24]
B
Well, I think he's saying, because some of it's from before the crime.
- [40:27]
C
Right.
- [40:28]
B
And none of it is evidentiary, apparently. But I think what it is is that they've been able to do the scratching process, which is getting through the layers of the onion of the videos, and they've come up with like, oh, here's the pool guy from Wednesday before this happened. So that's not bad. And here are the police after the crime in the backyard. But it's like, good God, how frustrating that you can get all these, you know, scratched images around the crime but not another one during the crime.
- [40:54]
C
Yeah, I'm skeptical. I think they may have more than they're saying.
- [40:58]
B
I think you're right.
- [40:59]
C
Yeah. Because I just, I don't buy it. Like, it suddenly went back on when the police arrived.
- [41:05]
B
Right. And I also want to know another big, big question that's unanswered is how many Cameras. Because my source said cameras nest. Cameras, plural, were smashed. We saw that they left a camera behind up on the casita. Then we heard, weeks into the investigation, there were cameras in plural inside the house. And the sheriff on day after, I'm not sure if it was day two or day five, said, we're not in possession of these cameras. Talked about cameras, plural, and we're not in possession of. So I wonder how many cameras this person took off with or if he just took off with the one and the. And the sheriff misspoke.
- [41:42]
C
Well, how about when the sheriff said, we can't get anything off of the camera because he took it?
- [41:46]
B
Well, the FBI was able to.
- [41:48]
C
I know, but that's the whole point. Don't say things you don't know.
- [41:52]
B
You don't know. Yes, exactly.
- [41:54]
C
I mean, it made me crazy. I'm like, you don't know what they can do today. I wouldn't say, like, if I lost my camera, will I ever get anything back from it? Can you get anything off of my phone? Sometimes you go places and they're like, oh, yeah. And they. And it's the FBI. So I just sort of thought. He just speaks without thinking.
- [42:15]
B
Well, also not ready for prime time. They did, you know, I will defend him in this way. Tucson is not a hotbed of, you know, mysterious murder and disappearances. The last major crime they had, you know, was. Was Gabby Giffords. And that was decades ago. So I get it. They're not practiced at the art. And they. They will be now. You know that. I dare say this homicide unit is. Is going to be really well trained for the next investigation they have to do. But let's talk about those numbers, by the way. We went from week two, three and four, and maybe even five. I have to go back to the dates where we had upwards of 400 investigators, both federal and local, who were assigned to this case. And it seemed overnight it went down to. We have four to five investigators from the homicide unit that's joined a task force that will work with the FBI members who will be stationed here in the Tucson field office. Meanwhile, the FBI had said no. The bulk of our people have gone back to the Phoenix main headquarters. But a few people, we've got a footprint in. In Tucson. So basically it went from 400 to, say, a handful, maybe, maybe a dozen, maybe less, seemingly overnight. What do you make of that?
- [43:23]
C
It makes me wonder what the sheriff did to the crime scene on those first couple of days, how much he destroyed. I mean. I mean, that's unfair because I don't know, and I'm speculating, but the fact that he ended the search and he took the tape down and we walked around the yard and we went up to film the blood drops. I mean, you know, come on.
- [43:45]
B
Pizza, flowers, pool delivery, landscapers, journalists. It was open season.
- [43:51]
C
Yeah. I mean, what if they dropped a. You know, like a piece of gum? Like, how would anybody know, right?
- [43:59]
B
You know, Nancy's L.L. bean shirt just left on the front walk. That was odd, too.
- [44:07]
C
I just. I'm. I'm. I have to say that the crime scene tape is up. The crime scene tape is down. They're on the porch. The FBI, they've covered it up. This is like five weeks later, I guess, or whatever. And they're three.
- [44:20]
B
I think the white tent went up about three weeks later.
- [44:23]
C
Three weeks, okay. And I'm like, it's all a blunt. It's a. Because we were just sitting outside Nancy's house for many, many weeks. I, you know, I. I just thought. And I don't, you know, I don't want to lay it all at the sheriff's feet, but the fact is, is that he misspoke. He didn't secure the crime scene. He didn't wait for the FBI. And while you said that lab in Florida is fab. I mean, tell the FBI it's going there. All this. This lack of communication, people visiting people's houses where the sheriff doesn't know that the FBI was at somebody's house or
- [45:04]
B
the gun stores, doesn't know they were at the gun stores, doesn't know that the FBI is. Is getting a statement for the, you know, alleged ransom seekers. He has to find out from his wife about that. That was just bizarro.
- [45:17]
C
It's all bizarro. And he's busy going to basketball games, too. I. I thought that was a bad look, too. I mean, I gotta tell you, like, if somebody in my community has been taken, who's a big part of the community, and there's the celebrity factor as well, where the whole world is kind of watching you. Don't go to a basketball game, go watch it.
- [45:36]
B
Not unless it's your son or your daughter's major event. And you've got to be there for them for, you know, a short time. But there didn't seem to be that element. Why do you think no one's come forward? Again, big question that's unanswered here. Why do you think no one has come forward with $1.2 million on the table?
- [45:54]
C
I think it's too Risky, because she's dead. God. I mean, God forbid. But I think it's too risky. I mean, like, what are you going to, you know, like, you, you're going to go to jail if you come forward and say, I have her. You can't get the ransom money if you killed her.
- [46:09]
B
I don't think it's him, but it's someone who knows him and knows he behaved in a bizarre way because that guy, that guy's entire Sunday was blown and his Monday wasn't a whole lot better either. And then he was really nervous the minute that video came out of the guy with the mask. This guy behaved in extraordinary ways all throughout February 1st, I'll say right through to February. And then I think it was. I can't remember what day, but I think it was February 10 or 11 when they came out with the, with the mask video. Like, oh, finally we can see him. He behaved differently. And somebody knows that.
- [46:45]
C
Yes, I agree, but if this. I kind of, you know, we're just speculating. But I have to say that the person who knows it was probably in on it with him. I think whoever knows this guy, I don't think it was a one man job. I haven't thought that the whole time because there's a back door and, you know, there's blood drops in the house. And I think it's one man. You think it's one guy?
- [47:09]
B
Absolutely, I think it's one guy. Happens all the time. And they can easily haul £150 over their shoulders. It's happened before.
- [47:16]
C
Well, I get that. But I kind of thought to myself, either whoever would get the reward would be implicated. So it has to be done very carefully.
- [47:27]
B
Likes this person very much. Until she doesn't. And then maybe she'll talk.
- [47:36]
C
Yeah, it could be. Or he does it again to somewhere else and then they catch him.
- [47:42]
B
Yeah. So here's the big last question, because I know I've kept you a long time on this particular story, but the biggest question is, do you think we're going to solve the case?
- [47:53]
C
Yes, I do. They find her that, I don't know. It's the desert. I hate to say it, but there's a lot of places, you know, I mean, it's kind of. Again, I'm thinking of Las Vegas. You know, people, you know, I mean, it's. It's almost a cliche for the movies and stuff, but desert is. Desert is really rough terrain. I was actually saying, you know, to my husband that if, like I had to cross here as a Pioneer. I think I would have just stopped. It's really rough terrain.
- [48:26]
B
It's almost like ocean. It's almost like.
- [48:28]
C
Yeah, it's. It's tough. It's tough.
- [48:30]
B
I. I do spend, like, I think so, too. I think we probably won't find her, but I do think that they'll find this guy. You know, it can take months, it can take years, but, you know, but.
- [48:40]
C
But if you got away with something once, you know, and you probably. Probably. He probably feels invincible, probably. And. And I would expect that that's a. A recipe for disaster for him. And I'm also an optimist. And.
- [48:56]
B
Yeah, I just hope you're not optimistic in a way that he'll do it again and then we'll catch him on the second one, because I just hope there's not going to be some victim out there who's waiting to be his next prey. But you spent all these days, just day after day after day, cultivating sources, working with Brian Enten. You're on location, and I feel like your book just came out, but this one should be in it.
- [49:19]
C
Next one in the next book. Like, we'll talk about all the. Nancy. All things. You know, Nancy Guthrie. I. You know what? I was sitting there and I was thinking about it, and I was just. It was so overwhelmingly sad. When you saw the flowers. It's a grandma. She's 84. Like, what did she ever do to anyone? You know? And so it just was so. I mean, they're all really hard and they're all super sad. You know, when we cover murders and we cover. Or we cover abductions or we cover missing children, I mean, it's all. But this one kind of struck because I think it resonates with any of us who have elder parents and that we do everything we can. Cameras, you know, helpers, pool, purse, you know, all these people dropping in suddenly, so nobody knows when you're coming, you know, to. You know. But I. It's just there for the grace of God. That's the way you feel about Nancy.
- [50:13]
B
Well, the four major cases that are in the book, is there a thread that. For me, there's a thread through all true crime, and that is mystery. That's why we just can't get our heads around things when we can't get an absolute answer unless you're there and you see it happen. You know, is there a thread that pulled you through that you see as common throughout these four cases and all the others that you've covered?
- [50:36]
C
You know what? I picked these four because they're kind of interesting and diabolical and. And then one I picked, I picked Holly Bobo to go over because it is one that I keeps me up at night and I can't forget it. Because there's a lot of things that go into when you're the media covering a case that you don't write about, that you don't tell anybody about. And when I went to see Karen Bobo and Dana Bobo, long before the trial started, we went through and we talked about things that like, just bring it really home to you. You got a real sense of the terrible loss. And the house was kind of frozen in time. And the picture of Holly and her brother, you know, Clint from their graduation were on the wall. And I just couldn't get it out of my head because I had a 20 year old blonde nursing student myself. You know, I had my daughter. And it just reminded me of that. And they were in the middle of nowhere and it was kind of crime. Can think the same thing with Nancy, you know, like the. That you can. It can all end with no rhyme or reason. I mean, a girl that lives in the middle of like Tennessee, where she could go off roading, they have acres and acres of land. Like, how does somebody take somebody like that and kill them? And then the nowhere. It came out of nowhere and then it was three years of waiting. So I think the thread between all of them, one is the first murder case I ever tried, you know, I ever covered. But. And back then you could have some access. That's kind of crazy. So I mean, I ran into the defendant in the ladies room. I mean, it was just different. So the other one I did is Robert Blake. Because. Because that was crazy. And I covered it twice because I did it for ABC News. And I also covered it when it happened. And we went to Vitello's where he had had his last dinner with his wife. And I know Laurel, I know all the places and knew a lot of people in common. So that was kind of interesting. And I still. And I guess the other one is Amy Harwick, who I think is really. I guess they were just things I thought were important for people to know. Amy Harwick had a stalker that she broke up with in 2010. And in 2020, he threw her off the roof of her house, off the top of her balcony, and he killed her. And she was just this beautiful, smart, well loved, and she lived right behind my house. And I remember going. It just. It could strike anywhere, you know, like we were in the Hollywood Hills. And I walked around the corner and I. And she had the. Her balcony is the. You know, the top tier of her house was the same as mine. And. And I knew her, some of her friends. So, yeah, I think that the thing is, is that it could strike anywhere and that the people that do it, you don't. I mean, it's just sort of going back to Nancy. You just don't know who would do something like that. I have one story, which was my first murder case in Mississippi, where the. The best friend killed her friend because she took out some insurance policies on her, and her friend had cancer and she wasn't dying fast enough, and she was at the funeral. I mean, it's a real. You know, it just.
- [54:08]
B
It is why we often say in true crime, you can't write stuff better than the truth. You know, Harlan Coben says the same thing. Yes, I write true crime because it's better than what I could come up with.
- [54:22]
C
And the people involved, it's just sort of like, what drives them. She showed up. This woman in Mississippi showed up. She hired a hitman to, like, light her friend's house on fire and put a propane tank in there. The whole thing exploded, and she showed up hysterical. Is my friend in there? Yeah.
- [54:42]
B
Do you remember Michelle Carter, who encouraged her boyfriend to take his own life in his vehicle and then just couldn't get out of the family? Just desperate to be a part of the mourning process and. And how close we were and how difficult this must be for you, Mom. And I just remember thinking, like, how do you insert yourself in that way after what you've done?
- [55:07]
C
Psycho. It's really psycho. This whole situation where she threw the funeral and she was down there hugging the mom. And these were regular. Not regular. She was a regular person in terms of her finances and an accountant and a nurse. But a lot of the other people were very poor in Mississippi, and she took advantage.
- [55:28]
B
Yeah. So listen, for our. For our listeners right now, you all don't have the advantage of having Alison on your phone, because when she's on a location, I'm like, ow. What's going on? Who'd you talk to? And this is the book. Like, finally, the people who are watching you can talk to Allison. You can actually hear all this background stuff that she can only tell us by phone, but can't talk about, you know, during these cases. So I'm really glad you did this, and I'm glad that you've realized your dream about writing this, this book, because, you know, in this business there's so much that goes unsaid and there's this insatiable appetite for all of it. So I know you're going to sell a gazillion billion copies. It releases on April 28th. You can pre order on Amaz and Barnes and Noble. It's called Murder and the Media Again behind the Scenes of Four High Profile Murders. Alison Weiner, you know how much I adore you. Thank you so much for this.
- [56:27]
C
Thanks. And thanks for all your support, Ashley,
- [56:29]
B
and good luck with the book.
- [56:30]
C
Thanks.
- [56:31]
B
My great thanks to Allison Weiner for talking to me about all of the work that she did on this case in Tucson, Arizona with Brian Enten. And you know, I close a lot of these episodes the same way by saying if you know anything, 1, 800, call FBI. Someone's going to know something, folks. And I know it feels like an eternity since this happened, right? But there are so many cases that are solved months, years after the perpetrator commits a crime. And we could be one of those cases if somebody comes forward with a tip. 1-800- call FBI. Those tips have started to atrophy. Well, I guess we all expected it once the media was basically shooed away and told, you can't park here. Effectively, it made it so difficult to cross, you know, the desert roads and hike in the heat of a Tucson afternoon and spend an entire day, pack it in with all your power, your water, your shelter, your food, everything that most of the media left. And not all, though, not all the media left. But a lot of those tips began to dry up. And of course, as we've been hearing, there are no leads at this point that seem actionable. There are no leads, my source said weeks ago, that could even produce enough probable cause for a warrant. And don't expect any big raids anytime soon, but one person can make all the difference. 1-800- call FBI. And if that's not a reason, just the good of doing that. How about $1.2 million is on the line. 1-800- call the FBI. Thanks everyone for listening. Thank you for watching. And remember, the truth isn't just serious, it's drop dead serious.