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Drop Dead Serious With Ashleigh Banfield
Nancy Guthrie Tip Leads Searchers to “Killing Field” Across Mexico Border | 131 Days Missing
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Hey everyone, I'm Ashley Banfield and this is Drop Dead Serious. Thanks so much for being here. Thank you for subscribing. If you already have, go ahead and do it. If you haven't. And also, please feel free to join our membership. I'm actually doing a big Ask Me Anything, which is a group gathering this Sunday, June 14, 6pm Eastern. Would really love to have you there. If you join, you get to throw in a question about anything on your mind. But today I was blown away by a headline about the Nancy Guthrie case. And yes, I haven't talked about the Nancy Guthrie case for a While. It's day 131. I'm recording this on June 11th, day 131, and things have been quiet. But today, a big headline and not just any headline. It was a tip and a tip with details, specific details that was acted on and Pima county responded. I'm going to lay out the whole story for you. Let me take you throughout the the development and set the scene for you. South of the border in Arizona, where Nancy Guthrie is from is an area called Nogales, right? You've probably seen the coverage. Brian Enten crossed over into Nogales one day just to see how easy it was to cross the border and come back. And it was a snap. And a lot of people wondered why isn't there a bigger effort to sort of search south of the border? Is it possible whoever did this to Nancy Guthrie took her south of the border and is either holding her there or may have killed her there and maybe buried her there? Didn't seem like the American authorities were too hot on that theory. Certainly didn't seem to send a contingent of people to search. Didn't seem to ally with the Mexican officials much either in that whole district until today. Not that they've allied with the Mexican officials. But something happened south of the border. It turns out there is a group, and you may have heard of this group before, it is a group of mothers and they do regular searches for missing persons south of the border. The group is called the Buscando Corazones Nogales group. And they have had huge successes in the past to the tune of finding 25 different unmarked graves in just one area. And wouldn't you know it, they are the ones who got a tip. Not the Pima county sheriffs, not the FBI, not the task force, not all the people who were, you know, scurrying about north of the border in Arizona and neighboring states looking for Nancy Guthrie, looking for those who might have had something to do with the disappearance of Nancy Guthrie? No, this is a totally different. Different group, different country. And it turns out the Americans didn't know anything about it. I'll get to that, because I think you're probably going to scream into your pillow when you hear the comment from the Pima County Sheriff's Department. But this particular group got a tip, and it was specific. They haven't released everything, but they said there were enough specifics in the tip to suggest that Nancy Guthrie is buried in an area southwest of Nogales, in an area called Mariposa, and that is a butterfly in English. And the group went and began searching and didn't go alone. They got a lot of help. They got help from the government. So this is bigger than just some random group heard something from someone and went to sniff around. It was a lot more than that. They, in fact, got help from the Sonora State Commission for the Search of Missing Persons. And they also got municipal and state officials backing them up with security. Like they needed, apparently, some muscle in order to be safe in their efforts of going to this killing field, an area where in the past they have found upwards of 25 unmarked graves. That's hopefully 25 people who had some element of closure delivered to them in their missing loved ones. Right. So this group went and searched and got the help from the Mexican government officials in that state and in that local jurisdiction and did not find Nancy Guthrie yet. They haven't found her, but I will say yet, because they said they're not finished. They're going to continue the search in that area, and they've got the muscle behind them. Right. They've got backup. What's kind of bizarre is how disconnected it is from the American effort, the Arizona effort, the FBI effort. Back in the day, 131 days ago, when this all began, we got all these mixed messages about how the Americans aren't working with the Mexicans. They don't know what the other one's doing. Nobody's talked to each other. And then the FBI suggested something different in the Arizona, officials suggested something different than that. And it just seemed like a hot mess. But it just didn't seem like there was much communication between the two countries. And that seems to be the case again, because here's the comment from Pima county, from the sheriff's department. I expected it would be. We're aware. We've sent a representative. Our representative is down there searching with this group after this tip with the specifics came in. And it's in a Killing field Where? Well, it would make sense then, wouldn't it? Maybe she's buried in a place where others have been buried in unmarked, probably criminal graves. Right? No, they did not. They have not sent an official down there. They're not part of the organization. They're not part of the effort. They're not part of the initiative. They're not searching. They didn't even know about it. That's where we're at. They didn't even know about it. This is the comment that the Pima county sheriff posted publicly on the X account. We're aware of reports regarding an anonymous tip related to the Nancy Guthrie investigation that was provided to a group in Mexico. At this time, we have not been contacted by Mexican authorities. Where's the next line saying, but we reached out to Mexican authorities. That's not in here. There's no mention of that. I don't even think it's happened. I don't know if it's happened, but they certainly haven't mentioned that that happened. They just said they didn't call us. So here's a post on X. This investigation remains active and ongoing and we will continue to follow up on any credible information. I'm not sure if that's a dig. Credible, okay, I get it. But how about following up on something that the Mexican government thinks is important enough to support? Maybe they didn't call you, but did you call them? Yeah, it's just, you know, it's how I work. Someone doesn't call me, I call them. Certainly, if it's important enough to them, I call. I got nothing else going on. Right. I don't know how busy the Pima County Sheriff's Department is right now. I don't know how busy that task force is. I don't know if that task force still together. I don't know if they are still connected. The FBI agents and then about a half dozen of the homicide agents from Pima county that were working together on that task force. Haven't heard a word about them. No updates, no nothing. I don't know if it's still together. And, you know, it isn't that weird for these, you know, alliances to atrophy and to change over time and again. I'm recording this on June 11th, Thursday night. It's 131 days since Nancy Guthrie disappeared. So I have no idea what the status is of their muscle in the Pima County Sheriff's Department, Homicide division and the FBI. The field agents in Arizona were working diligently alongside the homicide unit. Pima County. But I don't know. I'm just a little distressed to hear that this is where things are at. In any case, I do have a little bit of hope, and that is that this organization has said they're going to continue looking. That's good. And they've got the help of the Mexican authorities. I just hope that maybe with all this new wave of press and attention, that maybe Pima county will send someone, too. Maybe they'll send cadaver dogs to help. I don't know. I think it'd be a good idea. But I do know somebody who knows a lot, because I had a lot of questions about the number of days that it's been since the Nancy Guthrie investigation began. I get people asking me all the time, hey, whatever happened to that case? Did they ever find her? I mean, that's kind of where we're at right now. People don't even know that she's still missing. This is still an active case. This is not a cold case. Just as a reminder, cold cases are only cold after every lead has been run down and there are no more leads to run down. And then the box goes on the shelf. This is not that. But it sure has been quiet. And a lot of people who were transfixed by this story aren't even sure where it ended or if it ended. And it didn't end. But here we are in Nogales. So I had a lot of questions about what the element of time does to a case like this. Does it help? Does it hurt? You'd be surprised by the answer. And also the different criminal elements that align with each other and how they may, you know, necrotize over time and then give each other up. And if that's something that might actually be a hopeful element in the Nancy Guthrie investigation. So I called Dr. Tracy Sargent. Tracy is, first of all, way smarter than me. Let me just run down her creds. She's a specialist in victimology, specialist in missing persons cases, behavioral analysis, criminal profiling. She's a forensic criminologist. She's a crime scene analyst. She's a law enforcement officer, K9 handler, and public safety trainer. And she also worked on the Natalee Holloway case, which we all remember. Well, I had a chance to talk to her about this new development in Nogales and all the different elements about what 131 days into a case actually means. Here's our conversation. Tracy, it's really good to have you back on the program. Thank you so much for doing this. I thought about you immediately after this report came in, 131 days, Mrs. Guthrie has been missing. And this tip, this out of the blue tip comes in. I know how the rest of us process that. It's sort of bewilderment, but how does a professional like you process that?
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Well, Ashley, as in the beginning of this case, and certainly throughout the journey of this case, we've all heard about the different tips and leads, all cases, and certainly a very high profile, profile case such as Ms. Guthrie's, there are hundreds, if not thousands of tips coming in. And it's a real challenge for investigators because we have to go through all of them because it just takes that one tip or lead to break the case wide open. So all of them have to be taken very seriously and to be vetted. We certainly hope this is that one tip that could give so many answers to the Guthrie family and really to the world. So I'm not surprised that this another tip has come in and that it's being followed through. And again, fingers crossed. And I have to add to, as a law enforcement professional, as an investigator, it does take so much hard work, endless hours, just dogged determination to solve these cases. But I also have to add it takes luck, too. I'm hoping that just somebody says something and shares it with the right people and that the right information and tips lead come in to help with this investigation.
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You know, this group that received the tip, they're Buscando Corazones Nogales. And they're not. They're not unknown to locals. You know, in Nogales, this is a group of mothers. They have searched for many people in the past. They have found multiple grave sites. That's distressing on itself. You know, by itself. But the fact that this tip came in from locals in Nogales to this group in a place where, generally speaking, people didn't know much about this case, what does that say to you about the veracity potentially of this tip?
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Well, the first thing that comes to mind as an investigator is why this area? What is the connection between this area and the victim or the suspect? If we're going to theorize, it could be this person for these reasons they did that. So that would be my first question. What's the connection? Is it logistically feasible to take somebody like Ms. Guthrie to this area versus maybe on the other side of the country? That's not very feasible or logistically possible. But I understand it's not that far distance, maybe about 60, 70 miles. So that is possible. And this particular area, what I'M encouraged to hear is several things. We have a group that is experienced, that knows the area, that understands these kinds of things, knows what to look for. But more importantly is that the word is getting out and people are starting to talk. So if we go back from the beginning of all of this, there's so many different theories. Was it one person, was it multiple people? But the fact that people are still talking about it and now internationally is a good thing. And as they say, more eyes and ears, the better. But also, if we're going to assume that individual or individuals were involved in this, the more people that are somehow involved in this, either directly or indirectly, actually helps the case. That gives just by numbers alone, more people are going to be talking about it. Maybe somebody says something in passing and people starting to connect the dots. So I'm actually very encouraged about this tip for a lot of reasons and very hopeful that this, this is promising.
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You know, I. I am always amazed, Tracy, at tips that come in on cold cases that are, say, 30 or 40 years old. For whatever reason, people involved sometimes begin talking when perhaps they feel the threat against them has passed. I don't know if we're there at 131 days, but what does the passage of time typically do to a case where it seems like it's stalled?
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You know, you really bring up an excellent point, and it is so true, these cold cases. And let me say, first and foremost, this is not a cold case, right? This is still a very hot, active, ongoing case. But with that said, if we're going to talk about cold cases and then general timelines, like here in Georgia, a cold case usually is transferred from a hot case, a regular case, so to speak, to a cold case after three years. That seems to be the threshold for a lot of different jurisdictions, and that holds true here in Georgia. The point being is, ironically, in the beginning of a case, time is against us. But as a case gets colder, there is that balance that witnesses you hope are still alive after a certain, you know, 5, 10, 20, 30 years, that witnesses are still alive. But also, ironically, if the bad guy is dead or maybe moved on, that opens up a lot of things. And I've seen cases, I've worked cases like that where there was nothing for years, and all of a sudden we hear one of the suspects or persons of interest passed away, natural causes or whatever. And now we're getting a lot more tips and leads coming in. So I, quite frankly, am not surprised. Just in this case, you're going to have the ebb and Flow, the up cycle and down cycle. That's pretty typical of all cases. So there's going to be a time where things are really quiet or in the beginning they're very, very active and then they get very quiet and then a new tip or lead comes in and then it gets very active again. This is all very typical of cases, whether they're very hot cases or cold cases. But getting back to the cold cases time actually can be very helpful and people do feel more comfortable talking for whatever reason. People, let's say on their deathbed or the bad guy is dead or in jail, or maybe just even a guilty conscience or maybe somebody that, you know, they said so and so, but I really didn't put it together until now. So there's a lot of reasons why people may talk later. But I still really believe the high profile nature of this case is very helpful. It still generates a lot of tips and leads that could be wild goose chases, but I would say without a doubt, and this is especially true in cold cases. One of the best ways to solve a cold case, quite frankly, is, is media attention. The more you can get the story out there, the individuals involved share that information, people will call in, provide tips and leads, and generally speaking, that can help solve a cold case. And this, this is what we're seeing now, even though it's not a cold case.
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I mean, there were tens of thousands of leads that came in. There was no true crime story that was covered more than the Nancy Guthrie story, for better or for worse. I know the neighbors hated it. I know it was awful for the family. But at the same time, you know, it's manna from heaven when you have that many eyeballs and that many potential tips. It's awful when the case goes cold, which means tips are over. Every lead has been run down, there's just nothing left. And it goes on the shelf when you're, I mean, as a, as a victimologist. Can you flip for me and be a suspectologist for a moment? Because I often wonder about the dynamics of this horrible, horrible person who's seen on camera doing this right, breaking into Nancy Guthrie's home. And I wonder about the fear that person instills on those around him and how long that fear lives and how 131 days may abate, diminish, mitigate that fear and allow others who might know something or felt something and were just too terrified to say anything about it. Is 131 days that much leeway that might loosen up people's lips?
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A
Yes, yes. Interestingly, it's not uncommon for suspects, persons of interest, they start drinking, they're under the influence of drugs, they start saying things or even bragging or boasting about it. Viewers may not realize this, but it's actually not uncommon for people to give false confessions. And that can complicate a case very much so as well. But your question as far as the suspect and fear, in this amount of time, I would not be surprised that this individual perhaps feels a little bit more comfortable, a little bit more relaxed, a little bit more at ease, that they got away with it, perhaps living his normal regular life. And if the situation is this newest tip that remains were found or a possible grave in Mexico, this individual, at this amount of time, I, I really feel that their confidence level, that they got away with it, especially if they haven't said anything and especially if they did this by themselves or there's no other co conspirator that's dead, that's alive, that maybe passed away. We just don't know. So I don't want to say either or that if this person can stay quiet, they feel like they've gotten away with it, they're living their regular life. And Ashley, we've seen these cases, I would dare say the Long island murders, this man, as many serial killers and even non serial killers. It's incredible what normal lives these killers have. So I just want to share with the viewers, killers don't come with a label across their forehead to say, you know, I'm a killer, I'm guilty. It's not unusual at all for killers to live a very normal life and even in some cases be very likable, well respected, well known. That's the challenge with, with doing this kind of work. It's not like the movies where it's, you know, kind of obvious. So. And if we're talking about this suspect and his emotions right now, I would say after this time frame, now that she's in another country, I go back, his confidence is much higher than it was initially that he's gotten away with this.
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Let's face it, I cover some of the darkest crimes out there, but let me tell you, some of the scariest stuff is happening quietly right behind your screen. Your name, your phone number, your home address. It's all floating out there online. And it is not because you gave it away. It's because somebody sold it. Data brokers are tracking you. They know what you buy, what you search, what meds you take. They even know where your kids go to school. School one Phone call, and suddenly you're wiring money to somebody who sounds exactly like your own child or your mom. This is pretty chilling stuff. But here's what most people don't know. You actually have the legal right to make your data brokers delete your info. Problem is, doing it yourself could take years. And that's why I use Incogni. Incogni does all that dirty work for me. They go straight to these companies and they demand that they remove my personal data. They even offer a custom plan, unlimited. You flag a site that's exposing your info, and Incogni's privacy team goes after it directly. This is not just peace of mind. This is power. So if privacy matters to you, and it should go to incogni.com drop deadseries and then use my code drop dead. And I got you 60% off. You're welcome. Again, that's incogni.com drop dead. Use the code drop dead. To start taking your data off the market today. One of the interesting things about this most recent tip is that it had specifics. You know, there was. It wasn't. It wasn't random. It wasn't vague. Apparently this group got specifics and were, you know, geared towards a place called Mariposa or Butterfly in English, and went there with the information they were given from the tipster. I just keep coming back to a tipster at 131 days in a different country, is that somebody who's falsely confessing, looking for attention, stirring up shit. All of the above. None of the above. Or maybe someone who truly does know the killer.
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Well, I would go back to this, Ashley. We still have to consider every tip and lead as valid and truthful until we prove otherwise. So it could be all of the above. We just don't know until we investigate this. But what I would say about this particular tip, if we get all of these tips, as you said, tens of thousands of tips, some of them pretty generic, some of them very detailed, and the fact that there is so much detailed information that was shared with this particular tip, we have to organize or triage, so to speak, these tips. So with that much detail, very specific, that would be put at the top of that triage of tips and say, all right, this one's much more interesting and reasonable and possible than somebody, you know, that called in, you know, five minutes later in a very generic description. So, and I bring that up for this reason, Ashley, in these all investigations, even with Ms. Guthrie's investigation, as many resources that have been utilized in finding her or at least just finding answers. It's not unlimited resources. So we have to prioritize by the limited resources. We have to investigate all cases, not just a case like this, but all cases. So it makes a lot of sense if we get a very detailed, seems much more plausible tip and lead to use those resources for that versus these 10 others that are not as detailed.
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I at first could not understand why the Pima county sheriff's department really seemed to deflect from the possibility that Mrs. Guthrie was taken over the. The border at Nogales. You know, it seemed like. It seemed like a flat out refusal that that was a possibility. And then we started to do some work and research what it was like to cross that border crossing. And it's. It's astoundingly easy. You walk across, you don't even show a document you can drive across. And we've seen these incredible X ray images that show, you know, human cargo, that shows marijuana or drug or biological. But those are all coming into America. The same X rays don't seem to exist in vehicle traffic that goes over the border. So why do you suppose that it wasn't taken more seriously by the Pima county sheriff's department early on and that there wasn't a lot of synergy between the authorities, you know, over the border? This is the Sonora State Commission. It just didn't seem like there was a lot of teamwork going on.
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Well, Ashley, the obvious thing here is not only if you look at cases that cross jurisdictional lines, even within the United States, those can be a real challenge. And then add, now we have jurisdictions in two different countries with two different, let's say, perspectives or approaches or even cultural differences or attitudes or, you know, all of those things just complicate everything. But if we get into the reality of an 84 year old female living alone, you go back to the motive. What is the motive to take this person 70 miles away? You're looking at an hour and a half, possibly two hours to take this individual away. And it goes back to motive. But if we go back into, let's say the. I don't want to minimize this, but just the general crime of elderly people, you know, get broken into. It's just very unusual to take the victim away. And it's even more unusual to take the victim away that far and not justifying what the sheriff did at all. I don't want to speak for them. I know they worked very hard on this case. But I'm just looking at the, you know, just purely the logistics of why would you take somebody that far? And then we go back to this ground zero of her home and then expanding out. And it could be just a matter of we have this huge amount of area. When you talk about 70 miles, that is an enormous amount of area to look into and to cover. So I just want to surmise that the sheriff, like most cases, are going to start at ground zero. In fact, all cases starting at ground zero and then working their way out. And if you look at all of the possibilities, 70 miles away might be on their list, but it might be down here. It's like, you know, we're dealing with all of this stuff.
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Sure.
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We have limited resources and manpower to get to this possibility. We just can't even consider it right now.
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Got to prioritize. Yeah. Well, I was also interested to. To see in this report that these searchers with this mother's group who received the tip, actually got support from the sonora state commission for the search of missing persons. That's the first group. But then also had support, and this is key, from municipal and state officials. And those municipal and state officials provided security forces to keep the volunteers and workers safe. That's where I sort my spidey senses went. Why would they need to be kept safe during a search for a missing woman? Is this sensitive and dangerous territory that these volunteers are entering into by finding a missing woman from, you know, north of the border?
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Well, I've actually been to mexico. It's been a while, but I've been to Mexico. And I would say that armed security is not uncommon. It's not. They're everywhere. And that really doesn't, you know, my spidey senses that they had armed security there. What spikes my interest is that they got support doing it. To me, that is a game changer, that they have the security there to protect them. They have the support of these governmental officials and the society. And so they're obviously a recognized, well respected group that has been embraced by authorities. That seems to me all of that is a good thing. They're team players. They have one goal in mind. And I go back to these limited resources. If this group that obviously their reputation is well known, that the authorities like, we're busy with all this other stuff, great, you guys go do your thing. We'll go ahead and offer some protection personnel for you. And if you find something, let us know. And I would even say it's not uncommon for us to do this in the united states. I've worked many cases where sometimes law enforcement, they know we're there. We've gotten all the approvals and protocols, but there are limited resources and manpower. Well, Tracy, go search that area. If you find something, give us a call. I would surmise that that is what is happening in Mexico, but actually, I'm excited about this. I really am very excited and very hopeful that we have international recognition that is actively pursuing locations for Nancy Guthrie or at least the tips and leads, and then go back to. If they don't find something, that's okay. But the fact that we have these organizations and these groups that are engaged in this in another country, I think it's a huge win all the way around.
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Well, I couldn't believe the response from the Pima County Sheriff's Department today. It was not what I expected. Expected. What I expected was that they. They would acknowledge that this has happened, that they've been working hand in glove with the officials from Sonora, you know, county, and that was not the case. Tracy, let me read for you what Pima county put out publicly. We are aware of reports regarding an anonymous tip related to the Nancy Guthrie investigation that was provided to a group in Mexico. At this time, we have not been contacted by Mexican authorities. This investigation remains active and ongoing, and we will continue to follow up on any credible information. Does that. Does that square for you that there was all this government and state and local support for this search group after a tip came into them to go and actually dig for this, you know, alleged Nancy Guthrie grave, and the Pima county sheriff knew nothing about it?
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A
You know, I. I wish I could say otherwise, Ashley, but I. I've seen that all over this country, as it states, that group has found a number of bodies in Mexico, has worked these kind of cases before. So Mexico perhaps is saying, all right, let's follow this tip. Let's search the area. If we find something or if we find remains or evidence that we feel might be consistent with Ms. Guthrie's case, then let's contact the sheriff's office and say, hey, this is what we've got.
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B
This is.
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A
You know, what do y' all think? We'll send you pictures. Well, whatever. And that's not that uncommon to do that here in the United States. So this. They really don't have much to say to the sheriff's office other than, hey, we got this tip. We're gonna go check it out. The sheriff's office is probably going to say, great, we appreciate it. Call us if you find something surprising.
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B
That just. Just wasn't even that level of communication until now. I thought 131 days they'd been in regular contact with the authorities south of the border. Given that proximity, given the ease to cross the border, given the fact that the identity of the person could have been potentially Hispanic, maybe. No one knows, but that's a possibility. Therefore, engage south of the border. And that doesn't seem to be the case. And then I read that the head of this organization. And again, the organization is Buscando Corazones Nogales, and the head of the organization is Ramona Guadalupe Aiello Ortiz. And she said that searching this particular area where they got the tip, they had previously found 25 unmarked graves. I mean, wow, right? This is. To me, this is like the killing fields. And I almost felt like, how did we not know about this area before Mariposa? This. This area where there's 25 unmarked graves that have been discovered, how were we already there with cadaver dogs and Americans and, you know, U.S. marshals and bring out the hordes? Just how did we not know about that?
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A
That's a great question, Ashley, and it warrants an answer. It really does. And why haven't we heard about it? Why are all those people buried there? What happened to these people? What's going on down there? And why would Nancy Guthrie be down there, too? There's a lot of questions that come up about an area like that, and I get it.
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B
You know, the resources are thin. The priorities have to be established. But again, we're talking about a place that's 70 miles north of the border, and a very porous border at that. So easy that Brian Enten from News Nation just went right over the border, asked a bunch of questions of people, and came right back all within the same day, and still filed his evening news report. So the ease that one can cross the border into Mexico is almost laughable. And I just don't understand how it wasn't taken more seriously as a potential hiding spot for someone who did this to Nancy Guthrie and needed a good hiding spot.
- [40:37]
A
Well, and that brings up a good point. If you have 25 bodies in that area, I can't imagine people not knowing about this somehow, some way. But also what that tells me as a profiler, that's an area that an individual or individuals feel comfortable enough to not only put one body, but multiple bodies in this one area with a high degree of confidence that they can get away with it. This is not something that, you know, they. They do this by accident. They. They do it because they know it works. They know that they can get away with it, it's an area that they're familiar with. And I, this just, you know, there's so many questions going through my mind right now. Just, just knowing that this I feel
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B
should have been maybe week two, you know, where investigators realized, okay, we got a sitch, you know, south of the border, there's a killing field. We need to, you know, make sure we establish at least some contact down there. It's frustrating to know that, and I share your optimism that all tips are a good thing. Do you think that this though, will reignite another wave of tips? Or is just this just one more, you know, lucky random moment that may go away without any resolution? They didn't find her body there. They said they'll continue looking there. But do you think this is going to inspire another wave of tipsters?
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A
I do. And the reason is this. This is a very high profile case. We certainly know about it here in the United States. We imagine that many other parts of the world have heard about this case. Maybe not in this area, we just don't know. But the fact that we have active investigations, individuals that are engaged and actually looking in search areas is very promising. On top of that, the reality is the amount of the award. It's one of those double edged swords, quite frankly. Reward money can help a case in many ways, but it also can hurt a case. We've seen in some of these high profile cases where the reward amount is, you know, extraordinary, that it begs the question, what is the motive for a lot of these people calling in these tips? So the reason why I think there's going to be a lot more tips coming in right now is several things. The awareness that we have a missing American, it's a high profile case, an individual with a high profile relative, and then the reward amount is extraordinary.
- [44:10]
B
You know, I keep wondering about the kind of person that does this. For starters, clearly he's just not one of us. And whoever he's allied himself with in his life till now, probably not much better, maybe a different ilk as well. And I wonder, Tracy, how many of the assumptions, associates to this monster may themselves end up in jail or facing a lengthy prison sentence for something unrelated. And they will be able to use this as a bargaining chip to get their sentence reduced. I wonder how much that factors into the work of agents right now.
- [44:55]
A
Absolutely, it's a big factor. And I kind of smirk, so to speak, as you're describing this because as investigators, ironically, I just had a meeting with a group of cold case investigators yesterday and strangely, a bunch of Tips came in and one of the questions that one of the investigators asked is like, are there any upset or, pardon my French, pissed off girlfriends or wives involved in this? And we laughed and was like, well, we hope there is, because they are excellent informants for investigators. Somebody that's upset, has been wronged, has a vendetta, or, you know, they had this deal and the other person broke the deal. It's. Yes, all of those kind of factors definitely play in people saying things that they normally may have not said earlier. And we're hoping this might be one of those situations.
- [46:04]
B
I mean, hell hath no fury, right? Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned. And I only hope he's scorned a bunch. But there are also these other bad actors. Bad people hang out with bad people. And it might just be a matter of time before one of these associates needs a favor, needs to clean himself up, needs to get his own freedom back, and might just, just trade or bargain some information on Nancy Guthrie, if he's got it.
- [46:31]
A
Well, and with that, there's a common saying out in the world of who confesses, who talks, who doesn't. The first person that talks usually gets the best deal. So if it's a situation where there's a lot of tension and infighting, power plays, whatever it might be, that person might be, okay, I'm going to go to the officials first. They get to set the narrative. They get to set the tone of how this is going to be played out. And oftentimes, the first person that talks usually gets the best deal. It could be going into the witness protection program, especially in a case like this, whatever it might be, it might be immunity, all of those things. So honestly, Ashley, I would not be surprised at all if it could turn into one of those situations where somebody talks and they get immunity or a deal or whatever to help with this case.
- [47:38]
B
There's also that other little expression in our business, and that is there is no honor among thieves. And thank God for that.
- [47:45]
A
That's absolutely. And I go back to the reward money. Yes.
- [47:49]
B
The other question I wanted to ask you at 131 days, and again, I'm recording this on June 11 and 132 days on June 12 and 133 on June 13, and the days keep counting, which is excruciating for the Guthrie family. But at some point, like you said, there are limited resources and there are priorities. Other people have been murdered, other people have gone missing, other crimes, crimes have been committed, and other crimes need to be Solved. How does the process of atrophy happen? Is it behind closed doors? Do they keep that quiet? Because it is dashing. You know, it just is crushing to know that eventually all of these assets will dwindle. How and when does that happen?
- [48:34]
A
Yeah, you're right, Ashley. And that happens at different times based upon the research resources that are available. Let's say, for example, we have these high profile cases such as hers. We have task forces, we have local officials, federal officials, multiple jurisdictions that are involved. It's a very high, intense level. No jurisdiction can maintain that intensity for an extended period of time. So it's very common when, say, this big task force gets together, vetting through these hundreds or thousands of tips, and then, all right, we've done everything that we can, and now the personnel start walking away to go do other things. And this. Yes. And then it may turn into one, maybe two investigators that, quote, they're in charge of, of the go to investigator for the Guthrie case. Well, then he's going to look into it, but he's done everything he can. So he's got these other cases he's working on. And this is pretty typical of how this happens. Investigators, as you said, are working multiple cases. So they go work these other cases and then let's say a month later, they get this tip that comes out of nowhere on the Guthrie case. So then they change gears and now refocus on the Guthrie Cage case. They could check that tip out. Nothing pans out. And then they go back to these other cases. So it's not that the case, they stop working on it, but once all the tips and leads are completed and truly exhausted, there's really nothing else that they can do other than hoping somebody calls in, hears about it, a big break, something and shares it.
- [50:36]
B
Yeah, well, this was an interesting one. And while the mother's group that got the tip said that they searched and came up empty, what about the Americans? Like, what about the full force of the FBI, the assets that they had allotted, the task force that they had in place? What about, you know, sending cadaver dogs from the United States? A contingent, a team, just some sort of show of force. Do you see that? That's a possibility? Are they just going to take it, you know, for face value that, well, they. They looked, didn't find her, so on we go.
- [51:12]
A
Well, it goes back to. Again, you can't search the whole world for anybody. And you've got to have some rhyme or reason of why that area. You just can't go out there and just Hodgepodge, so to speak, looking at all these different areas for a lot of reasons, logistics, legalities, all of that. If they have looked at every possible scenario of where she might be and exhausting all of those areas, there it goes back. There's really. Whether it's a task force or it's one investigator, it's gone cold. And not to say that a case that's 131, 32 days old is a cold case, but it's cold from the perspective that everything's been done that they can do and until new tips and leads come in, it is in fact cold.
- [52:17]
B
You know, you and I talked weeks and weeks ago about this case and we probably said what I said with many of my episodes and guests and that is that I'm hopeful. I feel like they're going to find her, they're going to find him, they're going to solve this case. And here we are at 131 days. Then I wonder if you feel less hopeful, much less hopeful, nowhere near as hopeful or even more hopeful. Like, where's your, your hope meter at this point?
- [52:49]
A
I would say it's increased due to the fact of what's going on in Mexico. We have a separate country that has shown an interest and embraced this and is engaged in this meaning. The reality is this, Ashley. They truly have no reason why they would have to do this at all. None of those volunteers, none of those governmental officials, they are not required at all to do anything about this case whatsoever. And the fact that they are, I am very hopeful. I have a greater sense of hope now because of that than I did, let's say a month or so ago when they weren't. So with that, my hope has increased.
- [53:49]
B
Yes, Dr. Sargent, I'm glad I called you because you've made me feel a lot better. Plus, I always learn something when I talk to you. Thank you so much for this.
- [53:59]
A
You bet. It's always a pleasure, Ashley. And just fingers crossed. And again, I go back, the high profile nature of this case, not only in the United States, but now we have Mexico. And the fact that logistically all of that is feasible and possible, I'm very encouraged and I really hope if this doesn't happen or pan out, that it's her, that the momentum, so to speak, we had this big boulder that's been sitting there and the fact that they're pushing this big boulder and they get that momentum, I'm very encouraged that this is not the first time or first area that they're going to search they're going to continue searching. They. They're vested in this now.
- [54:49]
B
Well, fingers crossed that you're right and that it yields something. Thank you again for this.
- [54:53]
A
You bet. Thank you, Ashley. Take care.
- [54:56]
B
My great thanks to Tracy Sergeant. I always learn something when I talk to her. And listen, this case isn't over. I said it before, I'll say it again. A case is only cold when every lead has been run down and his yielded nothing. That's not the situation with Nancy Guthrie. So, you know, stay tuned because when there's a development, you bet we're going to talk about it and get the greatest experts out there with the most wisdom who have been to this rodeo before. Meantime, again, thank you for your subscription. If you haven't subscribed, please do so. Don't forget to join our membership. And don't forget our Ask Me Anything is this Sunday, June 14th at 6pm Eastern. I'm looking forward to your questions. I always look forward to your questions. And this this year I or this week? This year. This week. I'll definitely bring a glass of wine. I hope you do, too. Thanks for joining, everyone. And remember, truth isn't just serious, it's drop dead serious.