New Interview: Steve Goncalves Speaks After Gag Order LIFTED | Idaho Student Murders

Summary

Summary of Podcast Episode: New Interview: Steve Goncalves Speaks After Gag Order LIFTED | Idaho Student Murders

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Introduction

In this compelling episode of Drop Dead Serious with Ashleigh Banfield, host Ashleigh Banfield delves deep into the controversial Idaho quadruple murder case involving Brian Coburger. Released on July 18, 2025, the episode centers around the significant legal decision to lift the longstanding gag order that had restricted public and media discourse on the case for two and a half years.

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Lifting of the Gag Order

Ashleigh Banfield opens the discussion by highlighting the judge's pivotal decision to lift the gag order, a move she describes as a "hallelujah" moment for the public and the victims' families (00:04). This decision was anticipated after enduring what Banfield terms a "suffocating order" that prevented the dissemination of critical information related to the case. The gag order had not only hindered media coverage but also left the families of the victims in "excruciating pain" due to the lack of transparent information about their loved ones' fates.

Key Point: Impact on Families and Public Transparency

The removal of the gag order signifies that individuals associated with the case can now speak openly. However, Banfield notes a concerning trend: despite the lifting of the gag order, her team has faced significant obstacles in securing interviews with key figures such as the coroner, police, and other investigation associates (00:04). This resistance suggests lingering restrictions, possibly influenced by the desire to maintain privacy until the sentencing phase concludes.

Notable Quote:

"What hasn't happened, that is really the crux of this non dissemination order is the roughly 250 motions that have been in this Idaho courtroom under seal, remain under seal for now." – Ashleigh Banfield (00:04)

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Interview with Steve Gonzalez

The heart of the episode features an interview with Steve Gonzalez, a representative of the victims' families, who shares his frustrations and insights following the lifting of the gag order.

1. Frustration with Continued Secrecy

Gonzalez expresses deep dissatisfaction with the ongoing secrecy surrounding the case:

"It's pretty gross and we're fed up with it and we're glad that it's over." – Steve Gonzalez (06:29)

He criticizes the process for its lack of transparency, emphasizing that while the gag order has been lifted, the substantial number of sealed motions (over 250) continues to obscure critical details. Gonzalez underscores the families' right to know more about the circumstances leading to the plea deal and the justification behind removing the death penalty and public trial options for Coburger.

2. Critique of the Plea Deal

Gonzalez is particularly critical of the plea agreement offered to Coburger, questioning the prosecution's decision to bypass a public trial:

"They took death penalty off the table. They took a trial, a public process off the table. Why?" – Steve Gonzalez (00:04)

He argues that the prosecutors may have lacked sufficient evidence to secure a conviction leading to the death penalty, hence the unconventional and quiet plea deal aiming to ensure Coburger's imprisonment without parole or the possibility of appeal.

3. Challenges in Accessing Information

Despite the gag order being lifted, accessing detailed information remains challenging:

"They don't want to talk until the sentencing is over next week, even though the judge told them today they can." – Ashleigh Banfield (00:04)

Gonzalez elaborates on the bureaucratic hurdles families must navigate to obtain unsealed documents, including Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) requests and court actions, which adds to the families' distress and delays in achieving closure.

4. Potential Civil Actions

The conversation touches upon possible civil actions against Coburger:

"It's hard to bring something up that you haven't been able to even look at." – Steve Gonzalez (10:57)

Gonzalez indicates that the prosecution's strategy to seal information may also be an attempt to forestall civil suits by limiting the publicly available information that could be used in such cases.

5. Allegations of Cover-Up

Gonzalez suggests that there may be a cover-up of investigative mistakes:

"It's more about covering up some of the mistakes that they made." – Steve Gonzalez (08:08)

He points to specific incidents, such as the immediate firing of Coburger from Washington State University on the same day he was identified as a suspect, implying that the institutions involved were more concerned with damage control than transparency.

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New Information Emerging

Banfield shares new revelations from the conversation with Gonzalez, including details from Kathy Mabbit, the coroner, about the victims being gagged during the crime:

"Kaylee having damage to the corners of her mouth as though she had been maybe gagged with a hand or with an implement in some way." – Ashleigh Banfield (20:55)

This information, previously undisclosed publicly, adds another layer of horror to the case and underscores the need for complete transparency to honor the victims and their families adequately.

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Concerns About the Sentencing Process

Banfield emphasizes that the legal process is not yet complete until sentencing:

"The process is not legally complete until sentencing. We’re still floating between is it still really going to be a guilty plea and a life sentence?" – Ashleigh Banfield

She warns listeners that Coburger could still present additional challenges or manipulations during the sentencing phase, keeping the case in a state of uncertainty until all legal conclusions are formally reached.

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Conclusion

The episode sheds light on the complexities and sensitivities surrounding high-profile criminal cases, particularly the balance between legal confidentiality and the public's right to information. Through Ashleigh Banfield's incisive interviewing and Steve Gonzalez's heartfelt perspectives, listeners gain a deeper understanding of the frustrations faced by victims' families and the potential gaps in the legal process that may hinder full transparency and justice.

Final Notable Quote:

"The families deserve so much more than, than you and I do." – Ashleigh Banfield (20:55)

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Closing Thoughts

Drop Dead Serious with Ashleigh Banfield continues to provide insightful and unfiltered discussions on true crime cases, offering personal takes and uncovering critical details that remain beneath the surface of mainstream media coverage. This episode serves as a poignant reminder of the enduring impact such cases have on the victims' families and the paramount importance of transparency in the pursuit of justice.

Transcript

[Steve Gonzalez]

Foreign.

[Ashley Banfield]

Hey, everyone, I'm Ashley Banfield and this is Drop Dead Serious. You've probably heard, if you follow the Idaho quadruple murder case, that the judge in the case made a big decision this morning and that is to lift the gag order. Hallelujah. Two and a half years we've been under that suffocating order, Right. Which has kept not only you, the public and the media, who is the conduit to you, but also the families of the. The victims from ever really knowing what happened to their loved ones, what happened to their kids, their sister, their brother. I mean, they have been in excruciating pain trying to find out answers about this horrendous case because it, it is just so confounding. Who does what? Brian Coburger did. Who does this and why? They are still mystified. And here's what the judge's order really means. It means that people associated with the case are no longer prevented from speaking about it. Document. That doesn't mean they're gonna. I've made many, many phone calls today. My team has called the coroner, we've called the police, we've called associates who've been involved in the investigation. And we're being denied all sorts of interviews. It may be because they hate us, I get it. But it also may be because they don't want to speak until the sentencing is over next week, even though the judge told them today they can. What hasn't happened, that is really the crux of this non dissemination order is the roughly 250 motions that have been in this Idaho courtroom under seal, remain under seal for now. Every single one of them effectively needs to be treated separately. Some of them need to be unsealed only through a Freedom of Information act and then a court action. They have to be redacted because let's be frank, you and I do not have the right to everything. Okay? There is dignity in death, even though there's basically none. We do need to offer dignity to the victims of this horrendous crime. Kaylee and Maddie and Zanna and Ethan deserve that, as do their families. It was awful what happened to them. And you and I don't have the right to see it all. We don't have the right to see the pictures. We don't have the right to. To be privy to everything. But the families have the right to know a hell of a lot more than they know now. And. And I think we all have the right to know a hell of a lot more than we know now because these Prosecutors offered Bryan Coburger a deal. They took death penalty off the table. They took a trial, a public process off the table. Why? What was the reason? What, what did you not have on this guy to have him dead to rights in a trial? What did you not have? What, what was the reason you decided to circumvent the public process and just go directly to a quiet deal that would send him away forever with no opportunity for parole or, or appeal? These are the reasons that the public information is important, not that we deserve to have everything. So when it comes to each one of these motions, they have to be treated separately, they have to be redacted. I'm sure many of them will have to have protections in place for the dignity of those who are so deeply affected by this, as long as the public process is still effectively protected so that we know we haven't done hooded justice like they do in other countries around the world. All of that said, it just is confounding to me that these family members haven't been given the white glove treatment, because they have. Not according to Steve Gonzalez, who I just had a lengthy conversation with about this. I wish it were lengthier, but he is in a very busy process right now of trying to travel and to get on the road. But he was kind enough to give me as much time as he could before his family literally said, dad, we gotta go. And I asked him a whole bunch of questions about, how did you feel about today, the gag orders lifted? But, but not really. I mean, it's still going to take some time, maybe months, to unseal 250 plus motions, even if they're not completely unsealed. Did the, did the prosecution, did the government, did the judge? Did anybody help you through this before we knew all of this stuff? What's your reaction to what happened in court today and how much have you known, if anything, that we haven't known? I mean, I felt like they deserved to know more than we knew. And I'm still completely astounded by how Steve and his family have been treated. I don't know about the other families, if they've been treated differently, I don't know. But I had this conversation with Steve Gonzalez and I wanted to share everything about it with you. Now, Steve, what was your reaction to the decision today that the gag order will be lifted, but the motions won't be unsealed? Not yet, anyway.

[Steve Gonzalez]

You know, we requested for basically Kaylee, what happened to Kaylee. So I know her sisters want to do a victim statement and address the exact. Some of the things that happened to her and they basically wouldn't, they wouldn't share any information with us on, you know, what happened to her. So I'm pretty used to how ridiculous, you know, not just a gag order, but sealing something that has nothing to do with the victim's rights. It's, it's all about. Hate to say it, but it is a lot to do with the media and people being put on cameras and not knowing what to say or things coming out that they didn't mean to say or just didn't have a good explanation of what was going on. So they wrapped this seal thing around, trying to pretend like they're, you know, know, trying to protect people and doing all that, but they gave out people's initials at the very beginning. So it's, it's just a dog and pony show that we're supposed to pretend like, you know, like there's top secret information inside these docs. It's, it's. It's pretty gross and we're fed up with it and we're glad that it's over. And we just, you know, you only got one time to be able to be a victim's advocate and say what you need to say and to address the, you know, the courtroom and everyone in Idaho. And they're not gonna, they're not gonna, they're not gonna let us know exactly what happened. So it's. It's just terrible. You're gonna go in there, we're gonna make statements and we just were like, we don't want to say anything inadequate. We want to make sure everything we say is exactly truthful. And, you know, it's one of those times where they could bend the rules, but they don't.

[Ashley Banfield]

You know, I, I seem to recall there was some discussion that the judge was gonna. Families and tell you privately things that were going to be released in the gag order. Is that still a possibility or is there no discussion of that?

[Steve Gonzalez]

There's no discussion of that. We just sanded. You sent them an email and just said, are you really going to make my clients go through three different agencies to get this information that they want to see, like go through freedom of information acts for the state of Idaho, for the county of later. And then, you know, there's federal ones as well. There's even other states. So it's like you. They could, they could make it happen, but clearly the willpower isn't there. I don't think they, I don't think they really want anyone talking to the media and questioning, you know, remember these people said that it was a crime of passion, it was targeted, and, you know, it was isolated event, all this language. And then they even said, you're gonna have to trust us. You're just gonna have to wait and trust us. And now we've waited and it's like, oh, no, no, no. There was no connection whatsoever that we could establish. So how do you get isolated? How do you get targeted? So I think it's more about covering up some of the mistakes that they made. They don't want to talk about destroying the crime scene and how. So they just say, well, we're gagged. And now that the gag's over, you guys aren't going to know exactly what we were talking about during the last two and a half years.

[Ashley Banfield]

I can't imagine the frustration that you and Christy and the kids and everybody else who's been directly affected as victims of Brian Coburger's hideous, horrific actions. I can't imagine what it's like. I do know that the prosecutor sent you an email leading up to the decision to offer this plea deal. Now that the gag order is lifted, are you able to share what was in that email?

[Steve Gonzalez]

Yeah, yeah, we kept it, but yeah, we could forward it to you guys and then you guys could show it to share it to your audience. It's. It is what it is, man. You got to put yourself in a position of a parent, read that email and wonder if that's, that's what you thought was going to happen. And that kind of language doesn't really sound like it's a negotiation. It basically just tells us that it's over, it's done with, and just, just get on board. Get on board.

[Ashley Banfield]

No solicitation for your thoughts, your opinions to weigh in on the possibility of a plea agreement being offered?

[Steve Gonzalez]

No, it was just basically paperwork. We were asked if we had ever been offered a plea deal or gave one. We said no. He's like Judge Hippler said, well, you probably should at least look into that. And what's that look like for you guys? And we said, we're not in it. We're in it for the death penalty. The choice is he could be fired at or he could take a shot. Those are the two options that we would agree to. And then we did. You know, we would have, if it would have got to negotiations, we would have negotiated a lot better than Thompson. Thompson negotiated like a five year old kid, you know, he didn't, didn't force him to say that. He did it solo, by himself. Didn't force him to prove that he was wearing suit or show us where the sheath the knife is to the sheaf. You know, there's. There's a right way to do things and then there's just, I want it over with because, you know, I want my summer back and I want to go retire, you know, so that's what we got. We got a pitiful effort from an old man who's retiring and doesn't believe in the death penalty and really had no right to even be in that room. And it's a shame that we didn't have any other choices that we could have, you know, we could have pushed for. We tried. We tried. I mean, I tried to even hire a prosecutor. I would have. I would have paid to have my daughter in a separate case with their own. Her own prosecutor that we paid for and not even made Idaho pay one penny. And it would have turned out differently.

[Ashley Banfield]

Which leads me to another question. There are still civil avenues open to you. A wrongful death suit against Bryan Kohberger. Do you and your attorney, Shannon Gray, plan to mount any kind of action after this, or are you done?

[Steve Gonzalez]

I think a lot of their strategy for this sealing and gagging was because they were afraid of the civil actions. But those are mostly have to be brought up within two years. And it's hard to bring something up that you. You're not been able to even look at. Like, we don't even know who made the decision and what was all done. So I think this was a strategy for them to cover up their tails and the university's ass. And, you know, there's two huge universities there. One, they literally sent the students back saying it was an isolated, targeted and literally the murderer was hired by one of the universities and was literally in a position of power who had already harassed girls and they hadn't even taken those. Those investigations seriously. So, yeah, there was a lot of, you know, people need to look back when he was fired. He was fired on the 19th. That's exact same day that the. The police said that the FBI told them that Brian was a suspect. It's kind of more than suspicious that, you know, WSU fired him that exact same day while he was out on the, you know, back in Pennsylvania. They. They fired him. So obviously they heard about what was going on and it was cover their tails. And that's why we have all the sealed stuff and we're still fighting for the information to come out when it's just four kids that Got killed in their bed. You know, there's no top secret information here, so no national security. It's literally people thinking that they don't work for us anymore, guys. They think that we are lucky to be in that courtroom and they're like a form of royal bloodlines. And they sit there in that courtroom and they tell us how it goes and how dare us question them and how dare us know what, you know what's going on and question what they're doing. And I appreciate the media because, you know, it's one thing an angry dad saying that. It's different thing for, you know, ex prosecutors to get on your guys station and say this is questionable. Why'd they tear the house down? There's literally the 11:12 video is referencing sounds in that house. So you know, it could easily be that a jury wanted to like reproduce what those sounds would have sounded like on that camera and they couldn't do that. Once the house was tore down, was.

[Ashley Banfield]

There any contact made or any overture at all from prosecutor's office? The victim's rights advocate that's supposed to be associated with you about the process going forward now in order to find out more information, have they at least guided you? Will you have a better shot at getting information than someone like, than me?

[Steve Gonzalez]

No, they're, they don't like us. They don't like the fact that we question their authority. They don't like the fact that we talk to you guys right now. So I don't think they'll help us at all. They'll try to make it as most difficult as possible because we bring a huge spotlight. You know, if you're gonna, if we're gonna read it, we're gonna, we're gonna explain it to people how we understand it. And I don't think they want that attention. And that's probably why most of them have already retired. So yeah, I don't think we're going to get any help. We don't have a victim's advocate. She's, she's, she's bound by the rules of that court. So if the judge tells her to shut her mouth and don't talk about it, there's an open investigation of the leak and she's a part of that team. She can't talk to us. They had, we brought up the leak in court Jan. 13, Gray accused that office of leaking the information. And ever since then we've been able to prove that. We got, we got this, we knew about the sheaf and the DNA code has hit all that stuff before. And you think that if there's an investigation, why hasn't anyone ever called us and asked us where. Where we heard it, you know, so there is no investigation going on. They're lying to Hitler. If they're. They're telling him there's an investigation, there's no investigation going on. Because the first person who told you that there was leaks and prove to you by telling you what they've heard that eventually becomes part of your case. You know, the sheep. We knew about the sheep before it was. We knew about the white car before they released it. They never came and asked us who told us that information. They didn't even try.

[Ashley Banfield]

So who was it?

[Steve Gonzalez]

Oh, I. I would never. I'm not going to give that information out. You know, I. I really respect the people that actually reached out and tried to help us. They're awesome mothers and fathers, and they cared about their community, and they wanted to make sure that this was done the right way. And so, yeah, we did know some stuff, but I respect all those people, and I would never give out their information. They're all safe. Every person I talked to.

[Ashley Banfield]

It makes perfect sense. You got a loyalty to those who loved you and cared for you throughout this horrible process. In the interim, I kept thinking along the way, there would be things that, you know, that we don't know and that you were sworn to secrecy because of the gag order or any other reasons. Is there information you know now that I haven't known and the rest of us haven't known? Up until today.

[Steve Gonzalez]

Most of the information we found out were just people calling up. I've had other officers call us up and just say, I don't know what just happened in the court today, but I don't support it. People so angry at what was happening in that courtroom that they would literally pick up their phone and call us and say, this is what's on Brian's phone. This is what he was searching. This individual was sexually motivated. I don't care what Thompson said. They've got a plan for him. They've got a job role for that man. And it's not every day that you get somebody who wants to be a police officer, is dying to be a police officer. Literally talking to them every single day about how he was going to be a police officer. It's not every day you get a master's degree in criminology that is going to go into prison, and they're going to leverage that. That's what they're interested in. They're not interested in him being locked up in 23 hours of Solitaire where he's not going to be able to have any influence. They want him to go in there and actually have influence and work with.

[Ashley Banfield]

Them and be a resource for crime fighting in the future.

[Steve Gonzalez]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. He, his, his fantasy was to be an officer or the earliest one was like a Green Beret or something like that, a ranger. So this guy's had like these grander visions of himself since he was just a little kid. And I think one of the first things he told the officers when they arrested him in Pennsylvania was like, let's get a cup of coffee. You know, I'm working on my criminology PhD and I'd like to interview you. It's like this guy wants to be a cop or wants to be somebody of importance. He always has been. And that was part of the reason why we were trying to get them to take that into account and not plead with him. Don't give him the position of power. Basically dictate the terms to him and say, and say, we're not going to accept this unless you prove who you are.

[Ashley Banfield]

Still fascinated by the comment he made upon arrest. Have you arrested anyone else? Thinking, is he throwing a red herring in? Is he really curious about other possible suspects? But I'm very curious about what you just mentioned, that coming out of hearings, there would be people who would call you and say, I don't like what's happening in that courtroom. I know what's on his phone. I know. What did you learn from those phone calls without divulging who it was who called?

[Steve Gonzalez]

Just weird, weird porn fetishes. But two of the fetishes were in that room. Drunk, passed out girls and gagging girls. And those are two things that were part of that crime scene for. So for Thompson to say that there was no sexual assault. Of course there wasn't. He didn't have enough time. Somebody came up there. But why are you defending somebody who just killed four people? You know, why are you not even making him stand in the courtroom and admit that he killed four people? I mean, it's upside down world. Sometimes when you go in those court systems and they're literally, oh, you've been so respectful. You can sit down when you plead guilty with a yes and no answer. So we're just glad to be done with it. We're glad to move on.

[Ashley Banfield]

When you said drunk, passed out girls, gagging girls, was there something that happened at the crime scene involving gagging that you heard?

[Steve Gonzalez]

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's what we've heard. That's why we want to get all these facts straight. So we don't want to have a statement that is inaccurate. But when you have a prosecution that just is okay with covering everything up and not telling you what's going on, it's hard to be accurate. And they. And they've criticized us for not being accurate on certain things. And it's because we're not getting the facts. We're not. Parents shouldn't have to beg to know what happened to their kid the last 24 hours of their life. We figured out everything that we could. You know, we got the grub truck video before they did. We got the white car. We got the 112 surveillance even before they got it. We were the ones that tell them to go. Get to the. Go to these cameras and pull them off. I'm sure they already were going to do that anyway, but we got it before they did. So they were just concerned that, you know, they weren't in control and we knew too much stuff.

[Ashley Banfield]

And did someone with the investigation describe that Kaylee or Maddie was gagged during this horrible crime?

[Steve Gonzalez]

I was told that by somebody in. I could. I can give that out. That was Babbitt. That was Mabbit who gave that information.

[Ashley Banfield]

What did she say?

[Steve Gonzalez]

There was some damage to her. There was some damage around her mouth right here. Like, somebody had, like, pressed in and, like, tried to keep her quiet. You know, she'd been hit multiple times in. In her head, and her skull was damaged. So. All right, they're telling me, I gotta go. So we gotta fly. We gotta fly. Understandable.

[Ashley Banfield]

And just. Just for our viewers, Kathy Babbitt is the coroner. So she has spoken with you about these details. Steve, I'm so, so sorry that you're going through this. I say it every time, and I mean it every time. I wish you and Christy and the kids peace. And I'm very appreciative that you took this time to speak with us. So obviously, I had a lot of questions. I still wanted to ask Steve, but he had to cut the interview short. Kathy Mabbit. I think I said her name differently in the interview. Kathy Mabbit was the coroner who I actually spoke with exclusively two and a half years ago. And she revealed details on my Banfield show on News Nation that she hadn't revealed anywhere else. Like it had been a bloodbath, that sharp instruments, likely a knife, had been used. These were things that we had never found out. And then she never spoke publicly again. But she did speak with Steve and maybe some of the other family members. And that information that Steve just told us about Kaylee having damage to the corners of her mouth as though she had been maybe gagged with a hand or with an implement in some way, that. That's new. I had not heard that before. And the fact that someone had left that courtroom inside the investigation and called him and said, I'm angry with this gag process. I'm angry that you're not being given information. And I will tell you personally, I know what's on Brian Coburger's phone. There's at least a search for drunk, passed out girls and gagged girls. All of that seems to comport with that being very new information that Brian Coburger may have done that to at least Kaylee. I don't know about Maddie, but it is the very least that he knows and he does deserve to have the full information. It's very, very sad to hear that Kaylee's sisters wanted to provide a fulsome victims impact statement at sentencing next week, but feel that they cannot because they don't really know what happened to her. They don't have the full story on what happened to her. And I don't think they will either because, and here's the big part, I mentioned this in my podcast last night, but the process is, is finicky. You may feel as though when you saw Bryan Coburger stand up in court and say, yes, I did it. Yes, I killed each one of them. Yes, I'm the murderer. You may feel like, well, it's over. He's a convicted felon. He's not. Shocker. The process is not legally complete until sentencing. We learned that with Ken Lay, many of us in the media, Ken Lay in Enron was guilty but died before his sentencing and thus it's vacated. Same with Aaron Hernandez. When they die before they're sentenced, effectively they're not convicted because the conviction isn't complete until the sentence is brought down. Gavel comes down. And so we're still in that little nether area, right? We're still floating between is it still really going to be a guilty plea and a life sentence? No parole, no appeal. We're not done yet. Right? I said it last night. Bryan Coburger could still fuck with us. He could, he could still stand up at sentencing and say, I changed my mind. I'm going to withdraw that guilty plea and I'm going to twist the knife even more into everybody in the process, including those families. And so to that end, it looks as though Ann Taylor, his lawyer, filed a motion yesterday to keep the gag order in place. Whether she wants it in place or not. I think she's making sure that this deal goes through, or at least that Bryan Coburger does not have an additional arrow in his quiver to come after her and say, I want to appeal based on ineffective assistance of counsel. Now he's giving up his, his appeal rights, Right? He is doing that, but that doesn't come into effect until after sentencing. So up until then, anything goes. We're still in play with this guy. And that's probably a really good reason why a lot of this stuff in the gag order is still in play, right? Still being suppressed from public knowledge, just in case any of it messes with the process that's in place now, whether you agree with it or not, right? Whether you. And there's so many of you who don't agree with this plea. I get it. Steve Gonzalez, not the least of whom does not agree. But the process could be destroyed. And then we are right back where we started. And that trial date is gone. They do not have that jury pool ready to go at this point because, you know, we're like, time is ticking. So there's so much still in play. I just wanted you to know that. Don't hold your breath at this point or maybe hold your breath because not until next week do we know that this guy will be locked without the key. Right? Locked up with the key thrown away, never to be heard from again. Until that time, I think everybody's walking on eggshells, including within the process. I'm not inside their heads, I'm not inside the courtroom, I'm not inside judge's chambers. I'm certainly not inside Ann Taylor's office, although I would like to be. But me thinks that she was being very protective of the situation that she's in right now with him. Not just covering her own ass, covering the ass of the process to make sure he can't come back and say, I want another crack at this apple, cuz my lawyer sucks. She didn't protect the gag order till sentencing. Well, she did that. She put that on the table. She put that on the record. She also mentioned something, if you missed last night's podcast, that really surprised me that she, she thought that lifting this gag order before sentencing would throw fuel on the fire of a whole bunch threats being made to Brian Coburger. I expected that. But also to his family. That ain't right. And to court staff. That ain't right. So she's just putting that on the record that she's concerned lifting everything in the gag order could be a real problem before sentencing for all involved, at least those three parties. So super interesting reading. And it's being made public at this point and, and Steve gives us that. That other side of, of the victim's family, right. How they're being treated. And it looks like they're not being treated any different than you and me. And that breaks my heart. I always feel like the families deserve so much more than, than you and I do. And God, I hope, God, I hope they don't have to go through the lengthy process that Steve just outlined. Freedom of information request on every single one of these 250 plus motions. Three different levels of government. Let's just pray that it's a lot easier for them. Thank you so much for watching. If you're listening, thank you so much for listening. And as always, remember, I'm Ashley Banfield. I am here for you. The truth isn't just serious, it's drop dead seriously.