D (13:42)

Well, sure.

C (13:43)

I was there a while ago. I stopped by to say hi, I visited the kids. Then all those things of yours, your little microscopic pieces of evidence, could be in the house legitimately, as opposed to illegitimately. And honestly, Mark Garagos, I think the most famous case that he had to mop up a disaster with. Scott Peterson. Tell me about the morning. Trying to remember what time we got up.

E (14:14)

Probably Lacey got up and went and.

C (14:18)

Assumed she had some Cheryl for breakfast. What you're telling me, Scott, is there's no. You have no idea where this is because Scott Peterson left a trail of lies. Right? Just a. There's a hot mess behind him and, you know, there's the defense attorney left to juggle it all and try to navigate a defense that would make sense. And Scott Peterson talked to the police, so you'll hear Garagos in a minute. But honest to God, like, even if you're innocent, you just shouldn't talk to the police because it can be twisted in all sorts of ways. You can't imagine. It's a business. They're in the business of solving crimes and getting convictions. You're in the business of staying the hell out of jail. Think of it that way. Okay, so once again, we got a lot to get through in this episode, so let's just start right from the beginning. Okay? Who. When police hold a news conference about major cases, especially when they're still in flux, like the Spencer and Monique Tepe case, people on my side of the camera, we do two things. We focus on two things. We focus on what the investigators say, and we focus on what the investigators don't say. Right. In the don't say column, when police in Columbus, Ohio, faced reporters for the first time since the Tepes were killed, they declined to reveal any motive. Okay, I got that. Doesn't stop us from obsessing over why a vascular surgeon from Illinois allegedly gunned down his ex wife and her current husband two states away, nearly a decade after they parted. Right. Chief Elaine Bryant of the Columbus pd She did call the murders, quote, a targeted domestic violence attack. That's telling. And she did say that police recovered weapons, plural, from Michael McKee's penthouse condo in Chicago. Do you remember this incredible condo I've shown you in the last episodes? Man, it's a stunner. It's in one of the prettiest and most expensive areas of Chicago. It's an upscale building with a doorman and a pool on the roof and a barbecue area on the roof and all that filled with professionals. The building and his apartment in particular was beautiful. The Zillow pictures are like, like real estate porn. He had this great view of Lake Michigan and it was just a lovely place. So, yeah, I mean, I still say, what on earth could have gone so wrong? How could you have possibly, if you're the killer, have taken the weapons back to that apartment?

F (16:54)

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C (18:25)

And kept them for 11 days. So plural, weapons found in his beautiful penthouse. And weapons plural, including the alleged murder weapon, cops say. Also, how do police know that? Like, what's the science? What do they have? How they do it so fast? Well, there's a very good way they know that. Earlier on my News Nation show, Banfield, I talked to Matt Murphy who is a former homicide prosecutor in California and he knew right away what they would be doing. He was way out front on this. He had the answer. Have a listen.

F (18:55)

Really interesting, Ashley, is there is a system known as nibin and that's the, the National Ballistics database where they take shell casings, assuming it's a semi automatic handgun. We don't know that yet. But the shell casings that get expended on those, they're like DNA for firearms.

C (19:13)

Okay, now fast forward to this morning in Columbus, Ohio. And here is that police chief that I was talking about, Chief Elaine Bryant. And there is a preliminary link from.

A (19:24)

Our NIBIN to one of the weapons that ties it to the homicides.

C (19:31)

Blink and you'll miss it. But there she was talking about that NIBIN database. NIBIN stands for National Integrated Ballistics Information Network. I know, it's a mouthful. National Integrated Ballistics Information Network. And as Matt Murphy said, it's like, like a library. It's like a database that can trace bullets and shell casings right back to the guns that fired them. For now, the make and the model of the gun that killed the Tepes is in the don't say column. This might, however, answer the question as to why it was ATF agents who made the collar and arrested Dr. Michael McKee last Saturday near the Rockford, Illinois hospital where he worked. We do know that the ATF could narrow all this down to a 9 millimeter gun. Right, because that's the shell casings that were left behind at the murder scene. Three of them. But in a minute I'm going to tell you a little bit more about how the ATF grabbed him because it was, there was some drama. I had envisioned they'd knock on his door at home and get him there. And then I heard, no, they got him in Rockford, Illinois. And I thought, well, that's embarrassing because that's where he works. Did they go into a hospital and arrest a vascular surgeon right out of the or or right out of the hospital? And then I thought, I don't think so. I wonder how it happened. Well, now we know and I'm going to tell you all about it. And it's actually kind of kind of intriguing. I didn't expect a vascular surgeon to go to this place for lunch, but. Okay, that's coming in a minute. But now I want to turn to something that really struck me as super interesting in that police press conference. One answer that was definitive and one answer that was not, but spoke volumes nonetheless. The definitive answer was that there have been no police reports made from the tepe home about Dr. McKee stalking or harassing Monique Tepe before the murders. But when the reporters asked if there had been any communications between Dr. McKee and Monique Tepe, this was the answer that the police chief gave.

E (21:30)

Can you tell us if McKee and.

F (21:33)

Mrs. Tepe had any contact leading up to this incident?

C (21:37)

Months, weeks? There are some things that we can't share for investigative purposes. But what I can tell you again.

A (21:42)

Is that we didn't have any reports or anything linked to that specific location.

C (21:47)

As it relates to the ex husband and Monique Tepe. Well, that's interesting. So no reports ever came from 1411 N. 4th St. About Dr. McKee, but did any reports maybe come from other locations about Dr. McKee? I don't know. Maybe. We'll get those answers soon. And also, did you notice how the police chief hedged a little on that question of communications? She said, quote, there are some things we can't share. But she had just shared that there were no reports that had come in about Dr. McKee in that area. But the minute she's asked about communications, well, I can't. I can't share. So that tells me that there may very well be. Is it possible that there were contacts between McKee and Monique or maybe between McKee and her husband, Spencer Tepe?

F (22:38)

Wow.

C (22:39)

That would be a lot to learn. And I think we will learn these things in the days ahead. Then I want you to listen to this question from the press corps. I thought it was interesting. I am suspicious as to whether there was any casing of the home beforehand, allegedly by Dr. McKee before, as police say, you know, the. The murders happened. But this re. You know, the reporters asked about neighbors and that apparently neighbors had actually seen Dr. McKee around the Tepes home beforehand. But here's how the question was asked.

E (23:16)

Neighbors had said that they had seen.

F (23:19)

Makee in the neighborhood and in front.

E (23:21)

Of the Tepe home days before the homicide.

C (23:24)

Can you confirm that?

A (23:26)

At this time, we're unable to talk about specific information. But again, when we get additional information.

C (23:31)

We'Ll be more happy to share it, too. Not surprised that the police chief didn't answer it. They're going to keep a lot close to the vest. There was another question though, that came from a reporter. I don't know what to make of it. I'll be honest. Everybody and his dog is doing a very deep dive on this story. Everybody's pulling court records, documents, criminal histories, marital histories, all of that. Right. We're pretty good at this. You know, sleuths are amazing at it. Reporters are great at it. Like we all, you know, crowdsource this stuff. But there's one reporter that asked a question that really stood out to me because it sounded like she knew something. The rest of us didn't have a listen, I know this is ongoing investigation.

A (24:15)

I don't know if you can say this, but obviously they were divorced. Are you able to say anything about their relationship after that divorce?

C (24:22)

It was in 2017.

A (24:23)

Were they civil?

C (24:24)

I know he had a second wife as well. Again, there is.

A (24:28)

The investigation is still ongoing. Just understand we're still collecting information, we're.

C (24:33)

Still going through a lot of evidence.

A (24:34)

And there's just some things that we can't speak to right now.

C (24:38)

Did you hear the reporter? We know or I know he was married again, second time. Like that's not something any of us has found. And let me tell you, we have been digging like grave diggers. I mean, we have looked and looked. We have not found another marriage. If anybody knows who's watching, by all means, leave something in the comments. I would love to hear what you have to say about it and what you may have found. But so far nobody has found that Dr. Michael McKee was married again. So that might have just been an ill informed reporter asking in that, in that way or just syntax, I don't know. We may hear more details though about Dr. McKee and I'm, you know, crossing my fingers on this one because he's got a first court date in Ohio coming up. It was scheduled for Monday of next week and I'm recording this on January 14th on a Wednesday. But now they've rescheduled, they've pushed it ahead to Friday 23rd January. So, you know, gotta be patient on this one. But apparently who's ever in charge of moving Dr. McKee, extraditing him? They can't seem to do it very quickly even though the doctor waived extradition. So he's okay with going. It's just the apparatus isn't all in place. A lot of reasons for that. They're not that freaked out. They got him, he's locked up. There's no concern. You know, but it's just such a close trip. Like, that's what's so weird. He allegedly made the drive himself in just six hours, give or take, between Christmas and New Year's. But they are taking their time to get that extradition in place to get him back to Columbus, Ohio. And earlier on my NewsNation show, I talked to former FBI special agent Jennifer Coffendoffer. Here's our conversation. Okay, Jennifer, I thought of you right away after the press conference. And I asked myself, I wonder what Jen thought of that. So I'll ask you, what does Jen think of that?

D (26:31)

Well, I'll tell you what, I agree with you. Her not answering some of those questions right off the bat and being very specific made me think they have so much information related to an intersection between these two. At some point before the murder, maybe that was that proximal event I always talk about that happened that ignited this action that he took.

C (26:55)

Talk to me about Nibin, because I've always been under the impression that Nibin, again this sort of ballistics dating site, for lack of a better description, really got weapons that are out there from bad people doing bad things that already got arrested and those weapons went into the register. This guy, Dr. Michael McKee, is clean as a whistle. He doesn't have a scratch on his record.

D (27:19)

You know, when you think of using Nibin, that's typically in gang investigations and violent crime investigations where you don't have any clue who somebody committed it, but you had the, you have these cases that could connect to another crime. That's what we think of using NIBIN for. But the fact that there is an intersection here tells me that perhaps he bought this weapon at a pawn shop. Perhaps he bought it from a friend of a friend who somehow was connected to sometime where that weapon was used. And Niban considered it important.

C (27:56)

For folks who watch the show on a regular basis, I think they're going to know the answer to this question. But for folks who are kind of getting into the true crime space, a lot of people would wonder why are the police so tight lipped? They say they caught their guy, he's arrested, he's not getting out on bail. What's the big deal?

D (28:13)

This is a big deal. Right now they are looking at interviewing witnesses, anybody who saw or knew anything or understood that there were any issues. The minute you start releasing details about the investigation, you no longer know whether the individual you're interviewing is providing details that they really knew or, or was it something they heard on the news. So it's very Important that they stay tight lipped at this stage and also.

C (28:41)

That ever present preservation of a prosecution. You know, if they look coburger, they didn't get to prosecute him. It was just a deal. But if this goes to trial, you need to really hold your cards close to your vest. You got to share the discovery with the defendant, but you don't got to share it with Ashley, you know. So I am super curious about the confirmation today that the police said it was Dr. McKee, in their words, that skulking figure in the back alley. What is your estimation from your law enforcement background on how they determined that that was him?

D (29:14)

Well, first of all, always he has had this extremely unique gait. When I say always, I mean in all this film we've seen of him from the beginning of time, he had that left foot that curved in kind of pigeon toed, has a very long gait and you could tell he was a big man, not a small man. In addition, look at clothing, it is unique to him. And I believe it was likely the clothing and maybe even that shoe tread that you touched on a few segments ago that led them to know this is him.

C (29:47)

So at the end, I was going to tell the viewers, watch the very end, what he does with his face. And he looks away, takes his hand up, kind of covers his face, pulls the hoodie down. I mean that's a big telltale too. Look, in cold weather I do that too. I grew up in Winnipeg. But if you are leaving a murder scene and you know there are cameras, this is kind of the behavior you might actually emit.

D (30:08)

Exactly, Ashley, from the beginning when this person of interest, you know, was identified by law enforcement, to me this person was so important. He was right near the crime scene at the time of the crime and the way he acted, he acted like he was trying to hide and was guilty of something. So he definitely a person of interest, a suspect.

C (30:33)

So my guess Jennifer, is there's a team of detectives still working this case and fanning out to try to figure out more material that will help prosecutors. They don't have to prove motive, but juries really want it. Who are they going to be interviewing to try to determine if there was? Well, we know there was, but the extent of the acrimony between Monique Tepe and her ex husband Dr. Michael McKee. How will they find all that?

D (31:01)

Well, they are going to start with everyone, Ashley. They have to go clear back years from when they were first married, identify mutual individuals, try to figure out if there was any sort of pattern of domestic abuse that then led to this. Obviously, they've been divorced now nine years. But did he express to anybody the anger and resentment that he must have harbored if indeed he committed this crime? And what did she say? Has she told anybody about her concerns about Mr. McKee? Was that something that, you know, she left on the table for them? All of this is going to be explored by law enforcement.

C (31:45)

Every time I see that wedding picture, I'm just so sad because she just seemed so happy in this new life. And then there are those two children who don't have those two parents anymore. Jennifer Coffendoffer, always appreciate this. Thank you so much.

D (31:59)

Thank you, Ashley.

C (32:02)

So while all the legal machinery grinds forward slowly, the people who knew Monique Best are finally starting to speak. And they're finally revealing, you know, a portrait that is far more intimate and also more unsettling of who Michael McKee was long before she and her husband Spencer were brutally gunned down in their bedroom. Angenette Levy, who's the host of Crime Fix on the law and Crime Network, recently interviewed Monique and Spencer Tepe's brother in law, Rob Misla. And when that brother in law Talks about Michael McKee now, he does not hold back. He calls him a monster. According to Rob, Monique never referred to Michael McKee by his first name, not after that divorce, not once. She wouldn't say it. And that may sound small, but family members say it speaks volumes about how she viewed her ex husband and how much fear may already have been there. Listen to how Monique and Spencer Tepe's brother in law, Rob Misla, describes Michael McKee. Now.

F (33:12)

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C (34:40)

Subject to change and why was the TEPE side of the family so certain that he was the primary suspect? That he was going to be the person that law enforcement arrested and charged?

B (34:56)

And again, yeah, I'm just trying to speak for the TEPE side of the family because, you know, Monique's side had obviously a different relationship with her. They've known her since she was born. For us, we, we met Monique in, in 2018 when Spencer first introduced her to us. But we were fairly certain because of just what Monique had told us, stories wise of her. She never called him by name. She would just call him her ex husband and just how much of a monster he was, to be honest, emotionally abusive and threatening. And you know, she did everything she could to extricate herself from that situation and you know, met Spencer and lived a very happy life. But I can't speak for Monique, but I know that it changed her as a person and perhaps it was always in the back of her mind. I don't know.

C (36:05)

Had she ever spoken to you about it or Spencer or did you just.

A (36:10)

Hear about a lot of this after the fact?

B (36:13)

No, we, we were aware. She, she wasn't shy about talking about it and you know, how it had impacted her kind of mentally just as a person going forward. So we have, we had all heard stories and had talked to her deeply about these situations. But at the same time, you know, we were all thinking this is something in the past and Monique is clearly happy right now and has a family and has is with the person that she loves. So while we were aware of it, we were also more awestruck by the couple themselves and how much they were in love.

C (36:56)

So did Spencer and Monique ever voice concerns to you or did Monique voice concerns that she thought this guy just was going to show back up or that he, he wasn't Letting go of the past.

B (37:13)

I would say that she was always worried about him. I. But at the same time, I. We never thought that it seemed like a direct threat. And she never mentioned, like, of recent, at least to me, that, you know, that he'd been in contact with her or anything. So, yeah, that's. That's all I can say, I guess.

C (37:37)

And now about that arrest. We know that Michael McKee was hauled off in Rockford, Illinois, by the ATF. But now the ATF is confirming something that we didn't know before. The arrest apparently happened at a Chick Fil A. So multiple reports say that Dr. McKee was coming off shift. And we were told the arrest is in the morning. So my thinking is the dude was working an overnight Friday night over into Saturday morning. And he got off shift and was heading out for, you know, what would be lunch for us, maybe breakfast for him. And decided that a Chick Fil a would. Would do the. Do the trick. I don't know if he ever got to eat that Chick Fil a. I don't know if he was headed back to the hospital to eat it. Maybe to put in more hours. I don't think so. I don't know if he was about to drive the 80 miles back to Chicago with Chick Fil A in the car. I don't know if he ate it in the parking lot. As ATF agents watched and waited. So there's a lot of questions that immediately come up. Did Michael McKee pull out of the Chick Fil A. Only to have, like, cruisers come in and surround him. And then yank him out of his car and get him arrested just moments later? Was he arrested in the parking lot While he was in that car? Had he just driven away? Was he stopped almost immediately? I don't know, but I think we will find out. Certainly, that's the kind of information you do want to know. Because if it's atf, Are they worried he's still got a gun. And that he would do something if he saw that he was surrounded? So, naturally, my intrepid producer, Lindsey Haller. Found the Chick Fil A and dialed up the Chick Fil a. And, Lindsay, you got a hold of somebody who works there. So, Lindsay, when you call Chick Fil A, give me a feel for that conversation.

A (39:24)

I called Chick Fil a not even knowing if I would get somebody on the phone. But when someone answered, I asked if they could tell me if Dr. Michael McKee was arrested at the Chick Fil A. And the young man on the phone, he said, Well, I can't confirm or deny, but there was a very large police presence out there. And I asked him a few more questions, and he really couldn't answer. And just when I was hanging up the phone said, all right, thank you so much. He said, my pleasure. So very gone brand for Chick Fil A. You know, that's their phrase. So, yeah, they're really the Lord's work.

C (40:03)

You know what I gotta say, so often in these big chains, no matter whether it's a store or restaurant, whatever, they get corporate guidance very, very quickly. And oftentimes it is no comment. Do not speak to the press. So I can understand, you know, why he'd say, I cannot confirm or deny. But I've got to be honest with you. Anytime anybody says I cannot confirm or deny, it usually means it's because it happened. If it didn't happen, he'd say, no, I don't know what you're talking about. Nothing like that happened here. Sorry. Have a nice day. You know, you get a little more surprised. Somebody who's savvy and says, I cannot confirm or deny usually means they've seen something and they're trying to be careful. And then after that, Lindsay got the confirmation anyway.

A (40:50)

Yeah, from the atf. They later gave out the address. And it was for that specific Chick.

C (40:55)

Fil a, was it, like, give the description of how close it was to the hospital where he worked.

A (41:02)

So they are on the same side of the highway. It looks like if he turned out to go one direction, the Chick Fil a is on the same side of the highway. Literally just seven minutes away. So maybe that's a couple exits down, something like that. It looked very close.

C (41:22)

Fast food for a vascular surgeon, I guess. You can get healthy stuff, though, at Chick Fil A. My kids love it. I don't eat there. I have my own favorite. I hate to say it, it's McDonald's. I just love Big Macs. Is that terrible?

A (41:35)

Look, I am McDonald's breakfast girl, so.

C (41:40)

Yeah, like that too. Boy, did this podcast ever just take a right turn.

A (41:45)

I know.

C (41:46)

So I think that's interesting. I just. I'm always interested to see when a federal agency is brought in like the atf, but with NIBIN involved. And then you mentioned to me earlier, you know, if Dr. McKee did in fact kill the Tepes, then he would have had cross state lines with a weapon. That also makes it a federal offense too, you know. No need, though, if they're looking to take his life for this. Ohio has the death penalty. Moratorium right now doesn't mean they don't go for it. They do. But super interesting stuff.

A (42:18)

I'll be interested to see that body cam.

C (42:21)

Yes. I can't imagine what that would have been like to witness. Not just the folks at Chick Fil A, but everybody else. You know, you see ATF making arrests. It's a spectacle. I doubt many people thought it was for a murder, you know, in the next state. And that leads me to my next question. What did Michael McKee tell the cops? Any cops? Cops who arrested him, Cops who called days and days earlier just to probe about a murder of someone he used to be married to. When a murder mystery lands on the desk of a homicide detective, one of the first calls they make is to the victims ex, if they have one. And Monique Tepe certainly had one. Dr. Michael McGee, the man they've charged with her murder and her husband's murder. And one of the first questions they ask is, where were you on the night of the crime? Some killers clam up right away, but others turn on the charm, and they just spew a whole bunch of lies. The same impulse that leads certain people to kill can also lead them to try to talk their way out of trouble. And that may have happened already with Dr. McKee. Angenette Levy of the Law and Crime Network reports that Dr. McKee gave the police a bogus alibi. An alibi that didn't hold up. But at their press conference, police said that by the time they actually put him in cuffs, he did invoke his right to remain silent. So he got wise. But had he already said too much before he was in cuffs? I can tell you this much. If the surgeon told police something like, no, officer, I've never set foot in the Tepes house. And if, hypothetically, his DNA, his hair, or even a tiny little fiber from some piece of clothing he owns is found in that house, his goose is cooked. What else might Dr. McKee have told the police along with the alleged bogus alibi? This is what keeps Mark Garagos up at night, right? He always says, call your lawyer before opening your mouth. And it's for a very good reason. Earlier on my NewsNation show, Banfield, I talked to Mark. He's a legendary defense attorney. He's co host of the podcasts Two Angry Men and Reasonable Doubt. Here's our conversation. Mark Garagos. That was the first thing I thought of was that. Has this guy possibly painted himself into a corner? Because, you know, the police call the exes first.

E (44:44)

They always do. And People always unfortunately have this reflexive need to kind of talk and basically talk themselves or paint themselves into a corner. And unfortunately, I've said it I can't tell you how many times. On the federal level, they almost never record what you say. So it's your word versus their word about what you said. And then when it comes to local, sometimes they hear something, you didn't mean it that way. It doesn't come across that way. It's a no win situation. You do not talk yourself out of something. You only talk yourself into something.

C (45:29)

Can I ask you this? And I'm sure you know it because you've seen the transcripts over and over in your line of work. What's the first question police always ask the ex when they make contact?

E (45:40)

They always want to know, was there trouble in paradise? Basically, there's always some form or derivation of how was the relationship, what was the relationship, when was the last time you saw her? And they go down the usual litany of questions and people always think they're going to spin it, they're going to do whatever. I mean, I understand the urge. I mean, nobody wants to be. Imagine if you didn't do something. Nobody wants to be falsely accused. And imagine if you, you did do something, you don't want to talk yourself into it. It's just a no win situation most of the time. And obviously there are exceptions. There's no hard and fast rule in every single situation. But it almost inevitably in these cases. I can't tell you the number of times I've sat in a trial, in a murder trial, where the words of my client come back. And that is what you spend the whole time having to explain, having to interpret, having to provide context, and basically doing the battle that you never had to do.

C (46:53)

Yeah. And it basically can torpedo a defense. For instance, if the original cops reached out to him just because he was the ex, not because they suspected that he was a murderer. Asked him if you, you know, have you ever been in their house? Have you, were you in Columbus that night? Have you ever been in the TEPE house? And if he answered no. Well, how on earth does a defense attorney deal with forensics that might show hair, fibers, DNA of the defendant in that home or of the victims in the defendant's home?

E (47:26)

And by the way, I take that same situation, if it's unrecorded, and you heard or understand the question to be, were you there this day or were you there last week? And you thought that's what they were asking, but in fact you were there a month ago, two months ago. And that isn't what you were focused on. Something that is a harmless answer can be twisted around because. And I'm not saying law enforcement necessarily does that, but you're talking about two different people with two different agendas looking at the same situation. And the person who is in the crosshairs. If you're innocent and you have somebody, a loved one that's missing, you want to help, you want to give information. You're not looking to try to protect yourself. And the person who was asking the questions is coming into this situation. They have no idea what the relationship was. They're trying to get information. It's just a very difficult dance to navigate. And remember, one side is a hardened investigator who's been through this a zillion different times, and somebody else who is scared, traumatized, and presumably doesn't have any experience in this area.

C (48:39)

Quick answer on this one, but I have to get your perspective. Police say they found the murder weapon in the house. What criminal keeps a murder weapon, let alone in his house? If Dr. McKee is indeed the killer.

E (48:54)

Well, finding the murder weapon in the house doesn't tie it to him unless there's some other evidence. There's, you know, just like most accidents, car accidents happen close to home. Unfortunately, many homicides happen in the house or in the curtilage of dalles. So that alone doesn't do it for me.

C (49:17)

I don't know if I'm a juror. I don't know why a murder weapon would end up in an ex husband's home six hours drive away. But there's so much we have yet to find out. Mark Garagos, thank you. I always appreciate your perspective. We are going to keep tracking this case as it moves through the system. Make sure that you're subscribed. Two reasons. You do me a huge solid if you do so. Thank you. And then also, you don't miss any updates. This. The story moves fast and I am doing a lot of episodes more than usual. So I don't want you to miss anything and then have to go back and, you know, it's a. It's a pain. Just subscribe and you'll get the Bing. Thank you so much, everyone. I so appreciate you. Thank you for watching. Thank you for listening. And remember, the truth isn't just serious, it's drop dead serious.