Scam, Lies & Fake Cancer: Exposing 'Scamanda' with Charlie Webster

Summary

Drop Dead Serious With Ashleigh Banfield Episode: "Scam, Lies & Fake Cancer: Exposing 'Scamanda' with Charlie Webster" Release Date: February 27, 2025

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Introduction

In this compelling episode of Drop Dead Serious With Ashleigh Banfield, host Ashleigh Banfield delves deep into the intricate case of Amanda Reilly, infamously known as "Scamanda." Alongside guest Charlie Webster, the creator and host of the acclaimed Scamanda podcast and ABC/Hulu series, Banfield explores the layers of deception, betrayal, and psychological manipulation orchestrated by Amanda. This episode not only unravels the shocking narrative of Amanda's fraudulent activities but also highlights the profound emotional and societal impacts of her actions.

Hosts and Guest Background

Ashleigh Banfield introduces herself as a seasoned crime and justice journalist with over 37 years of experience, having covered high-profile cases such as O.J. Simpson, Casey Anthony, and Gabby Petito, among others. Her extensive background provides a credible foundation for her exploration of Amanda's case.

Charlie Webster brings her expertise as the mind behind the Scamanda podcast and its subsequent Hulu and ABC adaptations. Her personal connection, having been a trauma and abuse victim herself, adds depth and empathy to the discussion.

The Rise of Scamanda

Banfield sets the stage by discussing the pervasive success of Scamanda, noting its global reach and the profound engagement it has garnered:

“Scamanda is a blockbuster podcast and ABC Hulu series right now that is topping the charts nonstop... it's about to go overseas as well.” [00:00:00]

Charlie Webster elaborates on the podcast’s explosive growth:

“Like, as soon as I launched, it just went viral and it was just incredible to see people's reaction, like, everywhere.” [11:30]

Amanda Reilly's Deception

At the heart of the episode is Amanda Reilly’s elaborate scheme of faking a stage three blood cancer diagnosis to manipulate and defraud her community. Banfield articulates the depth of Amanda's deceit:

“She faked cancer so deeply and intimately with so many people... and conned them out of money and conned them out of love and attention and care and support...” [07:18]

Amanda's ability to fabricate her illness extended beyond financial scams:

“She was faking cancer so deeply and intimately with so many people, including the closest people to her... She conned her mega church, all of them, all of these caring, loving people out of everything.” [07:18]

Impact on Victims

The episode poignantly highlights the emotional and psychological toll on Amanda's victims, emphasizing the betrayal and loss of trust:

“What is it about me that I could believe this? I could believe someone like this?” [09:29]

Banfield and Webster discuss how Amanda's actions led victims to question their own judgment and trust:

“We are not that different than all of the people that she conned. There’s something about us that we want to be good. We want to believe the best in people.” [09:39]

The Legal Pursuit and Challenges

The journey to prosecuting Amanda was fraught with obstacles, including HIPAA regulations and limited resources:

“He was so overloaded, and he had a choice of whether to take this case or not.” [16:30]

Charlie Webster details the perseverance of Detective Martinez and Nancy Moscatello in bringing Amanda to justice:

“Nancy Moscatello, who ultimately went after Amanda and took her down... She was like a dog with a bone...” [14:00]

The legal battle culminated in Amanda's conviction for wire fraud, emphasizing the complexity of prosecuting such deceit:

“If you lie and you get money because of your lie... that is classic wire fraud, which is what they got her on.” [19:06]

Psychological Insights into Amanda's Behavior

Webster offers a psychological perspective on Amanda’s manipulative tendencies, drawing parallels to Munchausen syndrome:

“Munchausen is seeking attention for yourself by feigning illness... Munchausen by proxy is hurting someone and then coming in as the savior to seek attention.” [58:00]

She explores Amanda's early behavioral patterns that may have laid the groundwork for her later deceit:

“She would seek out adult attention... seeking out their approval, their attention, their conversation...” [44:19]

Amanda’s Personal Relationships and Further Betrayals

The episode delves into Amanda's personal life, particularly her marriage to Corey Reilly and the subsequent familial betrayals:

“She stole a child and she stole a husband.” [36:12]

The impact on Corey Reilly’s life and their daughter Jessa underscores the far-reaching consequences of Amanda’s manipulations:

“Jessa, she was a child that was raised in a lie... she couldn't go back to a foundation that she'd been built on a lie.” [38:41]

The School Principal Scandal

A particularly distressing segment covers Amanda's tenure as a school principal, where she not only falsified her credentials but also misappropriated funds intended for cancer patients:

“She wormed her way in to be a school principal by lying about her credentials... she took a disproportionate amount of those funds that were raised.” [50:19]

The emotional devastation inflicted on dedicated teachers and the broader school community is profoundly explored:

“She was like, well, it must be me then. It must be me. That's wrong.” [52:53]

Concluding Reflections and Future Implications

As the podcast episode wraps up, both Banfield and Webster reflect on the enduring impact of Amanda's actions and the importance of awareness and vigilance:

“This is something that people are going through. It’s not just you, you know, it’s not just you. The person who’s listening right now or watching. You’re not alone.” [53:55]

Webster emphasizes the need for continued storytelling and validation for victims:

“The importance of the story is... how emotional trauma is long term.” [55:44]

Banfield hints at future content, including connections to other high-profile cases and in-depth explorations of similar frauds:

“I am hoping for some pretty serious content coming your way from the Menendez brothers themselves. Also, I feel I've got a very strong connection going with Gypsy Rose...” [66:58]

Key Takeaways

• Amanda Reilly's Deception: Amanda meticulously faked her cancer diagnosis to exploit emotional and financial generosity from her community.

• Emotional Impact: Victims grapple with betrayal, loss of trust, and self-doubt, highlighting the deep psychological scars left by Amanda's actions.

• Legal Challenges: The pursuit of justice was hindered by regulatory barriers and limited resource allocation, underscoring systemic issues in prosecuting fraud.

• Psychological Patterns: Amanda's behavior aligns with manipulative psychological disorders, raising questions about underlying motives and early behavioral influences.

• Broader Implications: The case serves as a cautionary tale about trust, validation, and the ease with which charismatic individuals can exploit societal good intentions.

Notable Quotes

• Ashleigh Banfield:

  “Scamanda is a blockbuster podcast and ABC Hulu series right now that is topping the charts nonstop...” [00:00:00]

• Charlie Webster:

  “Like, as soon as I launched, it just went viral and it was just incredible to see people's reaction, like, everywhere.” [11:30]

• Ashleigh Banfield:

  “She faked cancer so deeply and intimately with so many people...” [07:18]

• Charlie Webster:

  “She stole a child and she stole a husband.” [36:12]

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Conclusion

This episode of Drop Dead Serious With Ashleigh Banfield masterfully unpacks the complex layers of Amanda Reilly's deceit, blending investigative journalism with empathetic storytelling. By bringing in Charlie Webster's firsthand experience and insights, the podcast not only exposes the intricacies of Amanda's scams but also offers a platform for victims to feel seen and heard. As the conversation closes, listeners are left with a profound understanding of the fragility of trust and the enduring need for vigilance in the face of manipulation.

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Join the Conversation

Ashleigh Banfield encourages listeners to engage with the podcast by liking, subscribing, and sharing their thoughts or case suggestions. Follow her on social media platforms including Instagram, X (formerly Twitter), Facebook, and TikTok for updates and additional content.

Upcoming Content: Stay tuned for deep dives into cases involving the Menendez brothers and Gypsy Rose Blanchard, promising further exploration into the dark corridors of deception and justice.

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Disclaimer: This summary is based on the provided transcript and aims to encapsulate the key discussions and insights from the episode. For a comprehensive understanding, listening to the full episode is recommended.

Transcript

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[Ashley Banfield]

Hey everybody. I am Ashley Banfield and this is Drop dead Serious. And I am so thrilled that you're here. Thank you. I have been a crime and justice journalist as well as a war correspondent and general beat reporter for, I think, more than 37 years now. And I've never had this kind of a very, how do I say, casual format before, but I wanted to start this podcast if you're, if you're new to my work. Thank you for being here. I wanted to do this because I think that when we're allowed to speak in a different voice, we speak in a different way, we have different perspectives. And this is a format that I've just been, like, starving for. Being off TV and being in this world, it's just a super huge joy. And so thank you for being here. A little bit about me, if you don't know all my background. I currently host a crime and justice show called Banfield on the network News Nation. I have worked for Court tv, many shows for Court tv. I have worked for NBC Dateline as well as the Today show and Nightly News and all the MSNBC programs. I Had a primetime show on MSNBC in which I was mostly a war correspondent. Spent a lot of time in Afghanistan, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Iran, Iraq. You name the war zone, I was there. Gaza, west bank. Lots and lots of time there. I also worked for Investigation Discovery. I worked for A and E doing a show called Live Rescue. I often do a show called On Patrol Live following the police. I worked for ABC News in 2020 and World News Tonight and Good Morning America. I mean, the list goes on. And cnn. I had a show called the Legal View on CNN for a long time. And hln. I also had a crime show on HLN called Primetime Justice. And so I've done a lot in this category in this sphere. And I've sort of been living, eating and breathing true crime for a very long time and had been on the road and have been in the studio and have been part of, you know, the interview sphere, so. And the analyst sphere. So it's sort of great to have all that stuff in the quiver of arrows that. That I use to do this work. This podcast in particular started with a limited series that I produced over the course of a year called Uncle Peter. I would love it if you check it out. Uncle Peter is the story of a guy I grew up with, called Uncle Peter. To me, he was my best friend's uncle. And he's also one of the most prolific serial sex offenders ever to walk the planet. The log line, if you will, on him is that he is. His behavior is worse than Diddy and Epstein and Weinstein and Cosby combined. And we didn't know it for 50 years. We just thought he was kind of like Hugh Hefner. Skeevy. Right. But we didn't know he was serially raping people and destroying people. Back in the 70s and 80s, not many women would speak up because of course, it's your fault we were wearing a skirt at the bus stop. Right? That's what the mentality was back then in the 90s and the 2000s. It still wasn't great. Ella Weinstein and Cosby, etc. But now he is in prison and the victims who have come forward to say that they've, you know, been abused by him are in the thousands. So anyway, as I called him Uncle Peter and saw him growing up, it's really interesting to have that insight and a connection to a criminal like this. Anyway, check it out, Uncle Peter. Hope you will. I've also covered you name the criminal case and I'm there. I was there for it. Let me just go over A quick list for you. And this is the quick list. O.J. simpson, Casey Anthony, Jody Arias, Natalie Holloway, Scott Peterson, Elizabeth Smart, Gabby Petito, Brian Kohberger, Lori Valo, Chad Dabell, Alex Murdoch, Drew Peterson, Susan Powell, Brock Turner, Chris Watts, Sarah Boone, the Gilgo beach case. So I've been around the block. That's again, just the tip of the iceberg. But today what I really want to do is dig into something that has just gotten under my skin. I think it has you as well, if you're into true crime. And that is Scamanda. Skamanda is a blockbuster podcast and ABC Hulu series right now that is topping the charts nonstop, no matter where it is, and it's about to go overseas as well. And if you have listened to any or all of Scamanda and all the bonus episodes, I've got a treat for you because Charlie Webster, the host, is my guest today and she's going deep on her conversations, on her off the record conversations, on the interviews that never made her podcast or the ABC Hulu series. And also her background because Charlie herself is a trauma and abuse victim. So she has a heck of a lot of empathy for the subject matter, the victims, and also for trying to understand Scamanda, the queen of all con artists.

[Unknown Advertiser]

Amanda Riley was a mother, wife, speaker at her church.

[Ashley Banfield]

Everybody loved her.

[Unknown Advertiser]

She got diagnosed with cancer. I heard the words, you have stage three blood cancer. We thought she was God's gift.

[Ashley Banfield]

When Amanda told me she had cancer, I was so devastated.

[Unknown Advertiser]

A beloved young Christian woman fighting a battle undeserved.

[Ashley Banfield]

We gave our hearts, our prayers.

[Unknown Advertiser]

Everybody put their hands over her and said, heal this woman, oh God, heal her.

[Unknown Voice Actor]

I'm thankful that I have cancer because.

[Unknown Advertiser]

I am now surrounded by the right people in my life.

[Ashley Banfield]

There was just something inside of me just saying, this isn't right.

[Unknown Advertiser]

And then all of a sudden, it went dark. She was a liar.

[Ashley Banfield]

Why would somebody fake cancer? If you haven't seen it yet, I highly recommend you run, don't walk, and check it out either in the podcast or in the the Hulu ABC series, or both. Like I did. I. I thoroughly consumed every aspect of it, was completely entertained and engrossed by all of it. But this was a woman who faked cancer. That might just sound like a headline, but she faked cancer so deeply and intimately with so many people, including the closest people to her, and conned them out of money and conned them out of love and attention and care and support and conned them out of babysitting and airline Points and hotels and help me achieve my bucket list. Send me to New York for treatment, and maybe I could see a Broadway show while I'm there on youn're Done Time. This was just again, scratching the surface of how deep her con went. She conned her mega church, all of them, all of these caring, loving people, out of everything again, out of their emotional attachment to her and whatever wallet they could open up for her. One of the Congregan even gave platelets because she didn't have money. That's Scamanda in a nutshell. But I think it all comes down to how we truly trust ourselves. When you get attached to the story Scamanda, you just sort of wonder, what is it about me that I could believe this? I could believe someone like this? You might not think so, but if you've seen Scamanda or if you've heard Scamanda, you will understand that we're not that different than all of the people that she. That she conned. There's something about us that we want to be good. We want to believe the best in people. Right? We certainly want to help people when they're down, and we don't want to look askance at them if they're suffering from cancer. We're not really adept at probing and answering questions to vet it.

[Unknown Advertiser]

Right?

[Ashley Banfield]

Like, that's not what we do as humans. As humans, I think we are generally inherently good people, and we do want to help people. And that's why when people take advantage of that, it's so aggravating, because we don't know who we can trust next. That's kind of the overarching theme of Scamanda, and it's really the overarching theme of how good she was at taking our gut feeling. You know, when you just have that little gut and wiping it out, obliterating it, taking your gut feeling and destroying it to the point where you have no immunity. She is literally the inoculation killer. She was able to just steal people's gut instincts from them, as well as a child and a husband and money and friendship and support and love and attention and all the rest that comes along with. With cheating and. And scamming. But that was the reason I wanted to start off this weekly podcast with the story of Scamanda, and why I really wanted to dig in deeper with the people who worked the story. Because, like I said, I think I'm just like you. I can't wait for every minute of bonus episodes. And with that, my choice was Charlie Webster. I Am joined now by the most amazing, beautiful, talented, kind, loving, and I will add all the superlatives, you know, in my head, Charlie Webster, who is the creator, the producer and the host of the wildly successful Scamanda podcast, and also the producer and host of the wildly successful ABC and Hulu series Scamanda. Man, Girl, this is your year.

[Unknown Advertiser]

Thank you. Thanks so much. I'm kind of blushing a little bit. Like, multiple years. Yeah, it's been a several years. Because the podcast blew up in 2023. Like, as soon as I launched, it just went viral and it was just incredible to see people's reaction, like, everywhere. And people were like, like Reddit threads, tick tock and. And worldwide. It ended up being like number one in 16 countries. And then to have the podcast, the docu series received in that way. And I was nervous too, when the. I think more nervous when the docu series came out on that first night because. Because the podcast had done so well. And I really wanted to make sure that the docu series came to new audiences, but also did the OGs like, justice. Like, did it just. Yeah, your OG, which is amazing.

[Ashley Banfield]

I'll tell. Well, I'll give you the rating. You know, I listen to the podcast all the way through and the bonus episodes and then watched the series and I thought, how do you do it? How did you get it to be as gripping and enthralling? Because I already knew the outcome and everything. But no, it was really a wonderfully told story, an incredibly well produced story. I kind of was thinking it gave Tiger King vibes in that way that everybody was talking about it. And it did it. Good or a bad thing? It's a good thing. From a producer's standpoint, it's a great thing. I wanted to ask you some questions that I. I didn't know by watching everything and it's how you fell into it. Like, how did you land in Scamander World?

[Unknown Advertiser]

Oh, gosh, I know. How did I land in Scamander World? I've been in Scamander World a while.

[Ashley Banfield]

It's hard to remember that far back.

[Unknown Advertiser]

Very much still in that world. Yeah. So I was actually making a podcast with 50 Cent called Surviving El Chapo, and I was creating a division for Lionsgate because they wanted a podcast division. But also my background's in TV as well as podcasts and radio. I started in television as a. As a broadcast journalist on camera and also, like, you know, behind the scenes, like producing and writing and so anyway, I was doing that and I remember somebody introduced Me, who worked with. Had worked with Nancy and was good friends with Nancy.

[Ashley Banfield]

Nancy Moscatello, let's call a spade a spade. She's just a dynamo.

[Unknown Advertiser]

Yeah. So Nancy Moscatello, who ultimately went after Amanda and took her down, she's the one that gave the evidence to the police and got the detective to start working on it and for them to listen. So, yes, she is. She's like. I wouldn't like to go on the wrong side of her. She's like a dog with a bone. And quite rightly, because she's got her own experience with cancer. She lost her sister to cancer, and I think she'd got. You know, she. Yeah, she cut the bone between her teeth and was like, I'm not gonna. She was so convinced that Amanda was lying and she saw the pain it was causing. She just did. She went after her. She dedicated so much of her life and her time to. That's.

[Ashley Banfield]

Yeah, that's the thing about our business and television. Things move fast. Demands are heavy, budgets are not. And I still can't believe that you guys spent this much time, you know, doggedly. Half a. Half a decade, really, to follow the story and bring it to fruition. And. But you did, and Nancy did. And because of that work and dedication and patience, we have the story.

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[David Tennant]

Well, the world always needs more podcasts.

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[Ashley Banfield]

Bye. Do you think it was mostly because of HIPAA violations and regulations and roadblocks that it was that hard to chase and it took that long?

[Unknown Advertiser]

Yes and no. So HIPAA was part of it. So when Detective Martinez started to look into everything, he was so. And I think, again, we have this perception of the justice system, but let me explain what it's really like. He was so overloaded, and he had a choice of whether to take this case or not.

[Ashley Banfield]

He was one guy. One guy in his department.

[Unknown Advertiser]

He didn't have a team. One guy in his department sat there with about 100 folders on his desk being like, oh, my gosh. And how on earth do you prioritize wrongdoing? Like, it should all be tackled And. But this is the. I don't know whether fascinating is the right word, but fascinating thing or unique thing about this is this is something that all of us, I think, can relate to. All of us have been impacted by cancer in some way, directly or indirectly. And I know I would go on a whim and be like, all of us have been betrayed and lied to. And it cuts deep. And so I think for him, it did take Nancy a few times and a few phone calls. And I think for him, he was like, hang on a second. Like, I am going to look into this and put my time into this. And then you mentioned Hippolores. He just hit roadblocks. Roadblocks, because he couldn't access, believe it or not, even the police couldn't access her medical records. And then he couldn't go any further because lying isn't against the law. And again, when. When I was making the podcast, you talked about time. Like, so much detail went into this. I can't even begin to tell you how many hours, how many sleepless nights, how many weekends, to make sure the detail was there, to make sure the nuance pulled across. So you really understood the subtlety and the insidious depth of this and the nature of it and actually how it represented this full examination in a way of narcissistic behavior and manipulation, which I think all of us have experienced. So Detective Martinez is like, great. I can't even access. I'm like, great. I'm sure he didn't say that, but my. My interpretation is great. I couldn't even access the medical records. What am I even supposed to do? Because the only way I remind everyone. And if people don't know the story. Amanda lied about cancer, but she didn't get convicted for lying about Cancer. She got convicted for wire fraud. So then he ended up speaking to Special Agent Lee, who is the irs, at some conference and was like, please, can you take a look at this? And the IRS then have a choice. Is it a big enough case for them? Because it was only $155,000 that they.

[Ashley Banfield]

Could track by the wires. They've stacks and stacks of big fish as well to fry. It really is kind of miraculous that Martinez was able to do it with his caseload, that the IRS was able to do it with their caseload and the small fish presentation that she seemed to present and. And the wire fraud. Just to be really clear, it's very simple. If you lie and you get money because of your lie, and you use transactional tools to do so, meaning a wire or a check or a bank or a Venmo or anything or the Internet, that is classic wire fraud, which is what they got her on. But the crime, I feel, was like the crime of a stolen soul. I feel like she stole all of our souls, and I'm not even a victim of hers. I just. I feel. I feel violated from what she did to just. My fellow humans.

[Unknown Advertiser]

Yeah. And I think that's why she ends up getting prosecuted, because as.

[Ashley Banfield]

As big as she got, like, the judge threw the book at her and went well beyond what the prosecutors asked for because there was this additional crime of the heart.

[Unknown Advertiser]

Yeah. Oh, I think it is a crime of the heart anyway, because I've spoken to everybody in this, involved in this, that knew Amanda, and not one person is, you know, bothered about the money in. And I'm not saying it's because they're all rich and money doesn't matter. It's because that, that. That. It's not that that sticks with you long term. It's the pain and the betrayal and the time that people gave and their prayers, their energy, their hope, their feelings of inspiration, too. In terms of. You've got this woman who is. She's doing life. She's fighting what life throws. Throws at her, which, again, I. I can certainly relate to, and I think all of us can. We've all had some kind of trauma and things. That life comes along, right, and it hits you with things, and you have to survive and fight. And you've got this woman presenting in front of you who is doing just that. That is people's hope that she took as well. And then to me, the most important thing that Amanda took from people is their own trust in themselves. Because when somebody betrays you like that, you then Question who you are, and that's what's so damaging. And absolutely, I should say that anybody that can relate to this, that's ever been lied to, scammed, betrayed, manipulated, it's not your fault. So you shouldn't question yourself and your own judgment. But we often, as a society put it as in, like, oh, and I've seen comments on social media. Oh, well, you know, she. She had. She wasn't thin enough. She had some weight on her. Oh, she had her eyebrows. How come people have. No, no, no, no, no. That's why when I was doing the podcast and making the podcast and then we were making the docu series is to really demonstrate the. You know, every day, this is your friend that you're seeing in hospital, you're seeing pictures of. Of what's going on with her. It's demonstrated in front of you. She didn't lie from behind a keyboard. She. She did live through what. What was portrayed as cancer.

[Ashley Banfield]

She lied to your face. Like, she looked at you and held your hand.

[Unknown Advertiser]

Exactly.

[Ashley Banfield]

And cried with you and lied to you.

[Unknown Advertiser]

I mean, so why would you ever question that? So shame isn' the feeling of, like, mistrusting yourself shouldn't be on you, but that's really hard to reconcile with. So, yeah, I mean, I remember being at the sentencing, and what stood out at the sentencing wasn't the money that Amanda took through wire fraud, which was through her fundraising page. That's where mainly the money and the crime came from. She had a fundraising page and people gave money through it. That's how she got caught. And through her blog post, because she was so detailed in her blog posts. But then there was little, tiny. Not tiny lies, because it's one big lie, but tiny details that weren't quite right but you would never notice unless you're going through with a fine tooth comb. Then, you know, oh, I'm a total.

[Ashley Banfield]

Stickler for those, because now I've lived enough years where I'm like, my call. Bullshit.

[Unknown Advertiser]

Yeah, but you're not going to.

[Ashley Banfield]

I'm always looking for those little details.

[Unknown Advertiser]

In your friend, though, that stood crying and holding you and, like, stood in church.

[Ashley Banfield]

But you know what? Lots of spouses don't question their cheating spouse, even though they see all these little signs. And these. These little signs are really something that shouldn't be ignored.

[Unknown Advertiser]

Yeah. But you know why we do that? I know. We're like, there's so much psychology in this as well. Because why we do that is because sometimes it's harder to face the reality that your Spouse is cheating. Sometimes it's harder to face the reality that there's this woman, that you've invested your time, money, hope, your emotions into your family time, you know, your. Your faith into. To then think, to then admit that she's faking cancer. That's very hard.

[Ashley Banfield]

And then you're listening. It's really important to know right now, for those who are listening or watching, that, you know, this isn't just you and me shooting the shit about this. Like, you literally do know what you're talking about. You've got a background in betrayal and in hurt and pain. You were. You were molested by your running coach, who you trusted. You've suffered homelessness. Like, you really do have the goods to back up the hypotheses and the theories that you're able to sort of weave into your work. I just want people to know that we're not just two girls, you know, yammering on about what we think about.

[Unknown Advertiser]

Life, about cheating spouses.

[Ashley Banfield]

Right, right. Exactly. About that. Because, you know, for those who think they blame themselves for falling for her, she was really good. I don't know many other cases I've come across in the 37 years that I've been covering crime, justice, and news of someone who's this good at lying. And you spent 25 minutes on the phone with her from prison, and I wondered if you felt yourself getting sucked in because she is this good.

[Unknown Advertiser]

You know, it's. I'm really glad you asked me that, because I feel like I need to talk about this and also address it a bit, because I have. I have no. I have seen, like, mixed comments, maybe, and some people comment and said, oh, oh, my gosh, I can't believe you. You know, you've got suckered in by her or you believe her. And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. I. What I am here to do is to bring the story to you in such a detailed way. And part of that is me letting. Is contacting Amanda. Part of my job as a journalist is to reach out to Amanda because she is. She's not just part of this story. She is this story. So it's irrelevant. It's not irrelevant what she's done, but I have to make sure that I'm vigilant in my storytelling, because what if there was more to it? What if there was something else? What if there was somebody else? And also, what if she's really not sorry? And what if she's calling everyone else, you know, the liars? So it's really Important to. Also to get the response from somebody and that you're talking about and you're involved in and you're supposed to ethically, as a journalist anyway. But also it's, it's important to learn from, because this also could be a cautionary tale. Like, you know, I have spoke to Amanda, and it's not for me to judge whether she's lying or not. It's for me to tell you what she said. And, and I, and I believe that people want to know that because the only person's voice we've never heard in this, well, apart from the husband, soon to be ex husband, is Amanda. And so I did speak to her. And that phone call, by the way, wasn't an out of the blue phone call. That phone call was after God knows how many, like months and months and months, probably a year of emailing back and forth, emailing back and forth.

[Ashley Banfield]

What was that like? Like, what kind of a repartee did you have with her in all those communiques?

[Unknown Advertiser]

Yeah, that's a great question. I think it was me. It was her kind of. It was me initially asking if she'd be part of the podcast. That was actually before she got put in prison. So the first contact was us texting each other before she went in prison. And it was me saying, look, I'm doing this podcast. I'm making this story about what's happened. I, I'm, I'm, you know, she was like, nancy, Nancy, Nancy, Nancy. I'm not Nancy. Nancy went after Amanda and it became very personal. Amanda tried to sue her, took her to court.

[Ashley Banfield]

You know, Nancy suffered greatly because of Amanda's lies. I mean, $250,000 to defend herself against, you know, libel, I mean, and slander. When the slanderer and the libeler was, was Amanda.

[Unknown Advertiser]

Yeah, because. And, and, and, you know, maybe we haven't talked enough or I haven't talked enough in terms of, like, in the public about Nancy, because Nancy's an interesting. I don't want to use character because this is her life, but she's an interesting woman because she did dedicate a lot of her time, which is fascinating in itself, to take this woman down. Like, not many people would, Would do that. And she didn't give up, and she did stand there in court and present her case, because she had to present her case and show that she wasn't harassing Amanda. So that's interesting in itself. You've got these two women very different, but both displaying behaviors of like, digging in, in a way, because Amanda. Amanda lent him more. The more Amanda, the more Nancy put pressure on her. And then Nancy was not going to give up either.

[Ashley Banfield]

But one was the force of good. Oh, man. Half a decade in the force of good. There's so few of us that could afford that time, afford that mental energy, the mental energy to stay with this story. Right?

[Unknown Advertiser]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Ashley Banfield]

Especially with all the roadblocks.

[Unknown Advertiser]

So much. Yeah. And again, we see, like, documentaries, whether it's podcasts and tv, and we, we don't see the years and years of. Of trying to get something like, trying to get the truth told, let's say. And so, so in, in my initial conversation, it was all about, you know, look, I'm making this. I am a journalist and I am telling this story. I'm not, I'm not, you know, I'm not like, coming after your life. I'm telling this story. It's an important story to tell. I wanted to make sure that the victims got a voice. And also what was really interesting is when I was speaking to the victims of it, and I'm using the word victims, I know people maybe feel funny about that connotation, but what I'm using it is in the context of the fact that they were victims of Amanda's crime and they were by law, and the victims only had a piece of their story. They did not know what you all know now. They just knew their own experience. They. They had no idea what Amanda was doing to other people. They had no idea the other communities she was in. They just had their own personal story. So by me, I basically put all this jigsaw puzzle, this. Sorry, we call it a jigsaw in the uk.

[Ashley Banfield]

Yeah.

[Unknown Advertiser]

Pieces of a puzzle together so people could really see. And I know that it's helped so many of the victims because they feel validated in, in everybody else's story of how, of how all this happened.

[Ashley Banfield]

Wasn't just me who fell for it. This was. She was a pro. I mean, a man that was a pro. Did they bond, by the way?

[Unknown Advertiser]

37 victims. Should I have? Yeah.

[Ashley Banfield]

Did they bond over, like, I can imagine if you've all been a victim of one person who's done this to you and torn your soul out along with the cash or the, or the. In kind, because the, the victims who were, who helped her with babysitting and gave her airline points and gave her hotels and, and, and experiences and, and concerts and all the rest, they were victimized, too. They just weren't part of the transactional legal case. Did they bond together? At all, any or many of them in the fact that they'd all been been victimized by the same woman.

[Unknown Advertiser]

Some no like some some did like I think Lisa and Alita did. Lisa, Alita and Nancy became very close. So Lisa is the anonymous source that tipped Nancy off. Nancy, as we've said, was the person who originally started to look into Amanda. And Alita is the ex wife of Corey, who plays a huge part because this story is also a family story. It's a story of family betrayal too.

[Ashley Banfield]

Is there a scam Corey story that's going to come out? There's a scamander, but is there a scam scam Corey coming out at any point? Because I swear you know, you know it when you know it even if you can't prove it. And with Corey and even Peggy, Amanda's mother, I just feel like there's so much there that maybe you can't prove with the irs, but I just feel like there's a there's just such a correlation between the crimes.

[Unknown Advertiser]

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[Unknown Advertiser]

So a scam, Corey. It's funny as well, because not everybody's name works with the word scam. Right?

[Ashley Banfield]

Right. And that one doesn't. But we know what we're talking about.

[Unknown Advertiser]

And it sounds awful for me to say this, but it is kind of just beautiful that Amanda's I know, works perfectly with the word scam. But anyway, I know exactly what you're talking about. So Corey. So let's go over the details again. So this was a case that was prosecuted by the IRS in the end because Amanda got done for wire fraud money that was given through her fundraising page to Amanda. Amanda's fundraising page, Amanda's account. It wasn't all the other stuff. So with Corey, Corey and Amanda got together. He is 12 years older than her and they were in a relationship and a marriage through this whole period of time. So you can decide whether you think that somebody would know if their wife has cancer or not. Corey also did say under oath and we have the audio is in. I spent six months trying to get it is in the podcast and he said that he goes to all Amanda's appointments. He also claimed bunk bankruptcy because of medical bills. And when he was fighting for custody of his daughter, who is called Jessa, who Amanda referred to as her bonus daughter. And that's Alita's daughter and Elita's the ex wife of Corey, of Corey. Amanda's cancer was used in the custody battle.

[Ashley Banfield]

It was germane. I mean, it was germane to the custody issues and the child support issues where we're buckling under the weight of the cost of treating Amanda's cancer. And then over there is my ex wife, you know, getting child support. The whole thing is so appalling and so inhumane, especially going after Jessa to take custody of Jessa away from Alita by claiming Alita was crazy. And again, this is the thievery of the heart. Right. I always say that Amanda didn't just steal people's money and their in kind donations. She stole a child and she stole a husband.

[Unknown Advertiser]

Yeah. And that's the importance of this story. The importance of the story is. Is the emotional trauma and also how emotional trauma is long term. And you know, let's just give a quick mention to Jessa because that is really important. You know, we look at all the victims in this case and as there are many and also people that weren't even involved in the case, people that have lost people to cancer, people that are having to live with cancer and struggle with that every day, their victims. Because this is somebody who. I've never had cancer, but I was critically ill eight years ago, which is another story in itself, and was on life supporting, in a coma. And I never wish that on anyone ever. I can't even tell you the distress it is. And I know that people listening to your show, Ashley, whoever have suffered illness will know how horrific it is. So to. To. To lie about that is just, I. I don't know.

[Ashley Banfield]

Unconscionable.

[Unknown Advertiser]

Yeah. But Jessa, she was a child that was raised in a lie. And you mentioned like a little bit about my own background. Like I wrote a book called why it's okay to talk about Trauma. And I know what that's like under very different circumstances. I know what that's like. And so then if you think about it, Jess as a. Was a child, so that's all she knew. That's when we learn how to view ourselves and to view the world outside. So she learned that. And then to then realize everything she'd learned, her own environment was a lie. That's so damaging. And you know, and that's something that she's having to process and recover and reload.

[Ashley Banfield]

Right. Her whole foundation was. And now she questions her whole foundation and how are you?

[Unknown Advertiser]

Well, her foundation was that. Exactly.

[Ashley Banfield]

Yeah.

[Unknown Advertiser]

So she couldn't go back to a foundation that she'd been. That was built on, you know, she. Her whole. Her foundation was built on a lie. And. And also Amanda has two boys. So.

[Ashley Banfield]

Yeah. I wonder how their process. They were awfully young, but still they're. They're going to see coverage of this no matter what age they end up being. They're going to see, you know, what their mom's realities.

[Unknown Advertiser]

I was conscious of that. I was just gonna say I was conscious about. Because. Yeah, because like I'm putting this story out there and. And you know, because of like Nancy did the incredible, you know, incredible work and then. But then it Was me that. That then did the investigation. Like, as in a journalistic investigation. Nancy's not a journalist. And then made it into this story.

[Ashley Banfield]

Well, let me. Let me just say none of us gets inoculated from criticism if we have children. Like, we go to prison if we commit crime, regardless of whether we have kids. I know what you're saying, but for.

[Unknown Advertiser]

Like, I felt for the children, because the children.

[Ashley Banfield]

Yeah, we all do. But it's her fault. Not. Not any of us. You know, telling the story has. That has nothing to do with it. But I see what you're saying. You feel for them no matter what. But as a journalist, like I said, the world is built on. You get punished and you don't get to be inoculated from it if you have children. And it's very sad for them, but it's her fault 100%. It's not ours and it's not yours, that's for sure. You know, my. I sometimes wonder if I gravitated to your. Your story, your podcast and the Hulu and the ABC series, because my brother was recently diagnosed with stage four lymphoma, and he's undergoing treatment as we speak. And so it's just. It's just unbelievable that someone would steal from strangers. Realities. Right? Like, she's literally stealing from my. My brother's reality because he truly is. Is going through it. And. And it made me think more about Amanda's life. Like, how did she end up this horrible. And I want to touch on that with you because you've covered this, and it's, I think, really insightful. She was a liar as a kid. Like, her best friend talked about Amanda lying about nothing and everything. Inconsequential stuff. Just as a kid. Do you think it was because Amanda got the bug early that you can get attention if you just spin a few harmless lies?

[Unknown Advertiser]

Yeah, I do think. And again, I'm just so. I am very well versed in psychology. I'm not a psychologist, but I have studied trauma psychology. So I go there. I go there because it's a knowledge I have and an expertise I have. And I also go there because I have a lot of lived experience. Experience like you wouldn't believe with all this stuff. So I immediately went to childhood, and I think we all do. We look for reasons why. Sometimes there's not a reason why, but we look for reasons why. And I also am big on patterns of behavior. I also studied that. So I. And I write about that so much in my book, I'm like, patterns of Behavior, because this is about a pattern of behavior.

[Ashley Banfield]

It starts early, right? As a little kid. Do you think?

[Unknown Advertiser]

Yes. Yeah. I, I spoke to a lot of her childhood friends even before I released them, even for the podcast. They weren't in the podcast, but a lot of them were very cautious, interestingly. So sometimes what I do, if somebody doesn't want to speak on record, and I would never, ever force anybody or make somebody feel pressured to, you know, these are people's lives. I had, like, I always keep that as the center to everything I do. These are people's lives, not a store, not just a story that we're going to watch and consume. And so. But I do get in, I do speak and get information. Like I spoke to a lot of people off the record for the podcast to make sure that my information was right. That's really important to me. It's not for me to say that Amanda was lying in her childhood or that Amanda's this and Amanda's that. Like, I'm really careful on that. And again, that came up with mental health. It's a mental illness. I'm really careful to not diagnose Amanda. I'm not, I'm not diagnosing her. I'm not a clinical psychologist. I'm not going to put something out that's not true in the world. So I spoke to a lot of people that you will never hear about. And in her childhood friends, they all said the same thing. And that's really important too, because, you know, I've got to keep in mind, what if, then what if their story is not true? So I'll always speak to multiple people. And they all said that she kind of came from a normal background. And I was like, what? And that I kind of. I know it sounds awful, but I want, I almost wanted to find this, like, big thing because it would then help me explain. Yeah, yeah, like, like, like what? Why? But I didn't. She was from a more normal middle class background. Nobody noticed anything apart from that. She would seek out adult attention. That came up a lot. Instead of seeking out, like, peers, your friends, she'd seek out, you know, if you go around to somebody's house, she'd want to talk to the mother or the father and seek out their approval, their attention, their conversation, not the kid that you're meant to go around and be having a play date with. Right. And that came up a lot, which is really interesting to me. That's somebody that. That immediate that's already learning those behaviors or maybe feels that they're not getting that attention. And then.

[Ashley Banfield]

Yeah, and then that makes a lot of sense.

[Unknown Advertiser]

Yeah, it does. It does to me. Yeah. I'm glad. It just.

[Ashley Banfield]

And I just. I wonder if as she grew and continued to seek that kind of attention from anybody and strangers, especially with the blog, she started to realize there was a byproduct of cash. Like you could make money off this too. And that was also irresistible.

[Unknown Advertiser]

Maybe. But I think it was more that. It was validation. It was. People saw her, and I think that's even deeper than cash and even stronger than cash. And we see that. We see that through social media. We see that through people wanting likes and needing likes and needing to, you know, to. To influence and to. For people to like your videos and. But for. Where's that validation come from, people you don't even know? And so I think it was more about. About being seen, about attention, about validation. And that, to me, is a much deeper driver than money any day, in my opinion. And the other thing, it's fascinating.

[Ashley Banfield]

Cause she was in thick. And you kind of think like the amount of work that it took on her behalf to continue the lie and to cover up everything behind her as little mistakes were made. I mean, if she'd only dedicated that work to a job, she'd be way ahead financially. But the amount of work she dedicated, most people, even good liars, would eventually try to wind themselves out of it because it's too hard, it's too stressful, and they just know the jig is going to be up any minute. But she was calm and cool and forged ahead. Even with a house being raided by the irs, nothing phased her.

[Unknown Advertiser]

I know. And that's really interesting behavior. I remember speaking to Detective Martinez, and he was like. She just sat there as if she wasn't bothered. And I never. I never forget him telling me that because I heard obviously so many conversations with him, not just on record as well, but one thing I just wanted to pick up on what you just said. Oh, yeah, that was it. Is that maybe. But at the same maybe it's. Maybe it's like, oh, God, this is just so hard because I'm like. I don't know whether I. Where I'd get the. I. I don't know how, like, the energy to do that.

[Ashley Banfield]

The energy, the.

[Unknown Advertiser]

The. Like. I'd be so paranoid. I'd be like an anxious mess because I'd be like, oh, my God, did I forget to, like, say the wrong thing to that person? I wouldn't be able to do it. But also I'M like too straight up. Anyway, I'm very.

[Ashley Banfield]

You've got a good heart.

[Unknown Advertiser]

You know, I'm English and I'm Northern English and we're kind of known for that. But what I was going to say is I also think the other way around that actually once you've lied so much, how on earth do you get out of that?

[Ashley Banfield]

Like how some you get so wound in, there's no way you lie again.

[Unknown Advertiser]

You dig a further hole, then you have to lie again. To lie about that lie. Then you have to. So I'm wondering if it's also that. How. How did you. Because I. In Amanda's. And I'll tell you why I've got this theory. Because in Amanda's blog post, sometimes they did, you know, in the podcast, I remember using the line right in the line. And then her blog went dark and I feel like I can recite all the lines I wrote for the podcast.

[Ashley Banfield]

She needed a break from herself.

[Unknown Advertiser]

Yeah. But I also think that there was moments that. Was she trying to stop?

[Ashley Banfield]

Maybe.

[Unknown Advertiser]

And I remember you asked me about the phone call I had with her. It was a video call. And, you know, she did say to me and in the emails that we went back and forth that, you know, she, she should have just stopped. But she didn't stop because she thought that she would lose everyone. But if she had stopped, she wouldn't have lost everyone, which she has.

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[Ashley Banfield]

That's an amazing sort of dynamic that, you know, you present like she had so many choices. I mean, look, all the Way along, she had so many choices. Can I ask you, I wanted to pivot a little bit to another part of this story that wasn't featured so much in the podcast or the series, but it was the school principal part. Like, that piece has really gotten under my skin and it's made me very sad. A lot of it made me sad. This one made me very sad. The fact that she wormed her way in to be a school principal by lying about her credentials. And then rather than just enjoying what she'd won by cheating, she targeted the other employees. She made their lives hell. She stole money in a cancer fundraiser for herself and another teacher who truly had cancer and died. She took a disproportionate amount of those funds that were raised, but she. She again stole a soul. She particularly bullied and harassed one of the good hearted teachers who wanted to be a teacher all her life, to the point where that teacher quit and said she needed to leave teaching because Amanda was just so awful. I want to get into your head a little bit about that piece because truly, I can't get over it.

[Unknown Advertiser]

Yeah, there's so much to that. It just reminded me that somebody, a journalist for a press interview the other day asked me what were the most powerful interviews that you did and sat down with. And one of them was Jessa, and the other one was the woman you just, just mentioned who she's actually in the bonus episode. She contacted me after the podcast. I didn't know about her. And like, and I say that, and I caveat that with, like, I honestly did so much work. Nancy did so much work. And then I did so much work. And then I had like an amazing two people called Jackson and Casey that also helped me do so much work to try and find. We did a really thorough, like, tooth comb investigation to find things, and we didn't know about her. And she contacted me after and she thanked me about the podcast and she said that for the first time ever. So let me explain who she is. She's. She was a teacher at the school that Amanda was principal of. And then she'd been. She'd had some kind of suspicion about Amanda and things weren't right. And she said that Amanda was bullying her. And then. So when this woman challenged Amanda, she was the one that got vilified and that got. That got basically fired and she had to leave. Then she had to leave the school. And it was so damaging to her that she actually left the entire career. And this was a woman that told me that her dream was to be a teacher. And I think that's incredible. Like, teachers are incredible. And then she was just numb and lost and felt so injured. You know, Amanda was the one getting on, and she was. She was like, well, it must be me then. It must be me. That's wrong. So when she heard the podcast, she said for the first time in. Set in, I think it was like, I can't remember how many years, like, quite a few years. Like three or four years, maybe five years that she'd felt like she finally was seen. And that just shows the power of. And I don't want it to. To sound like.

[Ashley Banfield]

No, you're right. It's the power of telling someone's story, Charlie. It is. I think that.

[Unknown Advertiser]

That.

[Ashley Banfield]

I think that's an overarching theme that we need to touch on, and that is that by telling this story, you have given validation to a lot of people who've been lied to and cheated and. And had their souls in their hearts sucked out of their chest. It's. It's a shared experience. A lot of us go through it. It's not just you, you know, it's not just you. The person who's listening right now or watching. You're not alone.

[Unknown Advertiser]

Yeah. And that's why I do what I do always. And I think you can see that in the pattern of the stories that.

[Ashley Banfield]

I tell and the passion.

[Unknown Advertiser]

I hope so. Yeah. I give everything, like, probably sometimes too much of myself and don't look at my own self care when I make these things, but because it's so important to me, and I wouldn't change it any other way because I feel like you could have told this story many ways. You know, it could have just been like, oh, this woman, fake cancer. She's lied about some things, and she took this.

[Ashley Banfield]

Yeah. The headline doesn't sell it, though, isn't it? No, the headline doesn't sell it. It's the depth. Yeah, it was the depth of how you told the story, of just how far she dug into our chest cavities to steal everything we had, all of our. The fabric of our trust, the fabric of our. Our human relationship. She. She stole things that you don't know are stealable. And I think that's how you. You kind of. This story got to us that way.

[Unknown Advertiser]

And, yeah, I actually wanted to stall with the most. Sorry to interrupt you, but with the most valuable thing to us. That's the most valuable thing to us in our lives. Yeah, always. Like our.

[Ashley Banfield]

Our spidey senses, our sense of trust, Our. Our ability to, to know who it is we're talking to or, or to know who it is we love or to know who it is we befriend or all of the above. And those are, Those are very valuable emotions that. That just got obliterated. Like it's just a grenade. Like Amanda through a grenade.

[Unknown Advertiser]

Can I just say one more thing about the school? I know you want to ask me another question because I know that's important to you and I know you're. That you're passionate about that. And yeah, so much of. There's so much in this podcast, so it's like that was a part of it. And then there's so much in the docu series and you can only fit so much in. Right. But. But when I spoke to. I spoke to so many parents in that school and teachers and, and it was really conflicting sometimes for me because everybody said how much the kids loved her and she was walking to school and she get. Everybody could choose whether they gave her a high five or a hug and. And kids did love her. But then again, I caveat. So again, that's not me, you know, feeling sorry. That's me giving you the facts and that. That was a fact. Like I've got to deliver those facts. And that's what everybody told me. But then at the same time, it's. There was a woman who also had cancer who they fundraised for. You touched upon it a second when you asked the question. And Amanda took half of that money that they fundraised for. And this woman did have cancer, and she's not here anymore. She's sadly passed away because of cancer. And then there was a boy who had a rare illness and he was part of that school and Amanda was close to him. And Amanda did say to him, I understand, I know what it feels like, and prayed with him and he. And it's so, again, contradictory because, well, the boy loved her and he. And it helped the boy, but at the same time, it was all based upon a lie. And that. That betrayal is so much deeper than an outright lie.

[Ashley Banfield]

It's important to tell that. By the way, you know, telling the story of the children loving her is a big part of how Amanda was able to prosecute her life in this way. She was lovable, endearing, delightful. She had dimples. You described, you know, like, I see the pictures of her and you almost like her just looking at her. It's a big part of how she got away with, I think so much was just this lovable personality which was Maybe a split personality. You know, if she was clearly capable of being so, you know, just diametrically evil. There's a lot going on that neither you or I have the degrees to diagnose, but there's a lot going on there. There was just another aspect of the. Everybody's so starving for bonus content from you. Right. Like, I don't think you could ever keep up with the appetite that's out there. But one of the things that you were able to tell was that in prison in the first. Gosh, I think it was like 18 months, she went to the emergency via ambulance 24 times. And that doctors bore witness to her interfering with her IVs and fudging her breath in tests. That would have been helpful to know what was wrong with her. I mean, how do you have any more insight into that reporting?

[Unknown Advertiser]

I. Yes, you're right. That was reported undocumented. I've seen the court, the documents, the prison documents. I should say. It's not for cancer.

[Ashley Banfield]

Figured as much.

[Unknown Advertiser]

Yeah, she's not. She's not doing that because she says she's got cancer. According to her, it's. She does have things wrong with her, but that was behavior in prison. But again, according to her, that was valid. So that. That's all. That's all I really know and all I can say on it.

[Ashley Banfield]

I think the doctors also used the word in the diagnosis, Munchausen, that they suspected that she might be suffering from Munchausen. And for those who've heard the term and don't really know, or they've heard it called Munchausen by proxy. Munchausen is seeking attention for yourself by feigning illness. Munchausen by proxy is hurting someone and then coming in as the savior to seek attention. So Munchausen would make sense if she is still looking for the attention and found that the best mechanism was through health problems.

[Unknown Advertiser]

Yeah, it's complicated. And I know people don't like things to be complicated because they like to just have like a. A monster, a clean answer and think. Yeah. And things black and white. And also fictitious disorder is the other thing that's mentioned. But I'll also say that. That she hasn't been diagnosed with it. Like. And I'll also say that she's now out of prison. So December 2024, she left prison and she's now in like a, you know, rehabilitation, reentry home. And she'll get out of prison this year in 2025. That's because she's also got good time served. So how do you reconcile with that? So I know, and I'm, again, just delivering facts, like, right, right, right.

[Ashley Banfield]

No, no, again, if you're the prison and you see that she's feigning illness and taking 24ambulance rides, you would not think that that's good. Good behavior. You'd think that that is behavior you'd be punished for, maybe even be in the shoe. But, yeah, and by the way, I should mention I did some research on the facility where she's doing, you know, what we would normally colloquially refer to as a halfway house. It's still full on bars and gardens.

[Unknown Advertiser]

I was trying to be like. And also, I was like, is it only English people that call it halfway house? Sometimes?

[Ashley Banfield]

I like American, too. It's American. It's Canadian. And so we got a nice international name. She's in her house.

[Unknown Advertiser]

Thank you for saying that.

[Ashley Banfield]

But. But she is under bars and guard, as we were. As we were instructed when we called to say, okay, is she free to walk about the cabin? Or they said, no, it's full bars and guards. There's just these programs for reentry. And maybe they need. They. Maybe they decided that someone who's not been incarcerated long, but someone like Amanda needs it more than, say, the average guy who'd be jailed for four or five years and then be let out. Maybe they see something psychologically in her that they think she needs this kind of additional programmatic treatment rather than just being let out from full incarceration to ply her trade.

[Unknown Advertiser]

Again, I don't know, though, but normally people do, like, go to a halfway house before they. Not. Not everybody sometimes. Yeah.

[Ashley Banfield]

Sometimes.

[Unknown Advertiser]

Like, I've got the worst example ever. Like, I remember El Chapo's wife, just because I did that whole show, Surviving El Chapo and El Chapo, and I remember her. His wife was basically in the same prison and as Amanda, and. And she was then put in a halfway house in California, too. So I don't know. But maybe I do know that she has done schooling and she has done counseling and counselling was part of her, you know, was mandated as part of her sex in.

[Ashley Banfield]

She's smart and she's strategic, and so I do not doubt for a moment that Amanda C. Reilly went into prison with a plan. What do I do to get out of this quickest? Like, do I take these courses? Do I sign up for this program? What do I do to get out sooner? Because she is that clever. She's conniving, but she is also, you know, very, very strategic. Can I ask you this when she's finally fully released, I think it's December of the, of this year, 2025. Are you done with her? Are you exhausted by it? Do you plan to follow and find out if she plans to continue her. Her expertise?

[Unknown Advertiser]

Call me then. I. That's so good you've made. It's not very often I'm lost words. I'm like, I, I actually, as I sit here speaking to you today, don't know. However, if she decides she wants to speak, then I am here and we can see what happens with that. And she knows that I'm here if she wants that option. I did ask her to, if she would like to speak on the podcast, if she would like to be interviewed by me for the podcast. She declined. Then in the docu series, I asked her again. She did agree to speak to me. As you've all seen, that's in episode four. And she did give me the message that she wanted it to be put out there, that her mum wasn't involved and her brothers weren't involved. That was really important to her that, that I put that out there and.

[Ashley Banfield]

I'm glad that she wanted that. I'm just, personally, as a consumer, you know, a listener and a viewer, I don't believe that Peggy wasn't involved. It's just, it's impossible. Didn't she, didn't Peggy, her mother, have some communication with someone after Amanda pled guilty and kept the ruse going about the cancer?

[Unknown Advertiser]

Yeah, she had communication with Rebecca Kafiru because Rebecca, who's in the podcast, I'm. The docu series, actually knew Peggy and was friends with Peggy and they worked together before she met her first.

[Ashley Banfield]

Right.

[Unknown Advertiser]

She met.

[Ashley Banfield]

How she met Amanda was.

[Unknown Advertiser]

Yeah. So if you speak to her, she'll, she'll. She definitely gives you an outright answer of what she believes because she doesn't think it adds up. And she believes that this is. Rebecca believes that Peggy, Amanda's mum, knew about what Amanda was doing. And so, so, yeah, so that's what. But that's what Amanda told me. And that. So that's, that's what I'm telling you. She told me so. And that's what I told people in the docu series in episode four was that's what she told me. So it's not me going, this is what I think. It's me telling you what she told me because I'm the only person that has had access to Amanda and I'm telling you what she's told me. So I think some people you know, to be clear that that's what I'm doing. And so she decided not to speak on the docu series, but instead speak to me and me. Give that message. And also, she said that she. She did toil between. She did go back and forth. Like, this wasn't just. No, she went back and forth. We went back and forth a lot on whether that's what she should do. And because she was serving a sentence, she wanted to carry on serving a sentence and finish it out before she decides whether she should speak. But, you know, people don't like me saying this, but she told me that she was sorry.

[Ashley Banfield]

Well, listen, if she.

[Unknown Advertiser]

Not to me, just to people, you.

[Ashley Banfield]

Know, it'll be very hard to believe if. If she's sorry because she's laid too much foundation for, you know, automatic acceptance. That's for sure.

[Unknown Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Ashley Banfield]

She's hurt a lot of people. And I think a lot of the listeners are angry for the victims. And, you know, I know as a listener, I am angry for the victims. I'm angry for my brother, who's really suffering and being treated for cancer right now.

[Unknown Advertiser]

And so I'm so sorry for that. Because you've made. That's the. The. You made. You know, thank you for sharing that about your brother. Because this is the thing. Like, this is. This is something that people are.

[Ashley Banfield]

These are real things for people. Yeah. These are real traumas. These are real stories for people. And, you know, misappropriating them. Stolen valor style. It's not just a lie. It's. It's. I mentioned at the top, it's stealing people's hearts and souls as well, including, you know, the listeners who were so angry and frustrated and felt for these victims. I hope you speak to her. I hope you continue to follow her. I hope that there are a thousand more bonus episodes to come. Charlie Webster, I cannot thank you enough for spending all this time with me. And literally, I feel like we just scratched the surface. Surface. I know.

[Unknown Advertiser]

I feel like that's the thing with this. I feel like I could just. There's just so much. You could just talk for so long about it.

[Ashley Banfield]

It's true. But thank you for doing the work that you've done.

[Unknown Advertiser]

Well, thank you for having me on, and thanks for being one of the original podcast listeners. It's thanks to you all that it's. That it is where it is now. And I know that all the. All Amanda's victims really also are glad that this is out there because they feel that there is justice in the fact that this is out there as a story and not, not just through law.

[Ashley Banfield]

They've been heard, which is important. And also equally important, people know who she is and what she looks like, and so they can at least have their own backs.

[Unknown Advertiser]

Yep. Yep. It's going to be. Everybody knows. And it's going to be hard.

[Ashley Banfield]

Yeah, it'll be hard to. It'll be hard to, you know, reprise that kind of behavior upon full release. Thank you again for this, Charlie.

[Unknown Advertiser]

My pleasure. Thanks for having me.

[Ashley Banfield]

Hey, everybody, thank you so much for staying with me through this podcast. I just want to encourage you, please like and subscribe and leave comments for me. I also want to hear what cases you want me to look into. I got a stack this big. But I really do want this community to work with me on this podcast and I want to bring your passion into this. So please let me know in the comments. If you're watching on YouTube, definitely leave a comment and let me know your thoughts about the podcast. And then also what cases you. You would like me to cover and like and subscribe and, you know, all the rest as well. And then I encourage you to follow me on social media as well. I'm on all the platforms, Instagram X, which I still call Twitter, Facebook and TikTok. And I've got a lot of content going out as well from my News Nation program onto those platforms and then also from this, this podcast onto those platforms. So I encourage you to follow me there as well. And then I've got a lot in the works. Also. I'm kind of connected to the Menendez case in a very deep and intimate way. And I am hoping for some pretty serious content coming your way from the Menendez brothers themselves. Also, I feel I've got a very strong connection going with Gypsy Rose, and so we're looking forward to hopefully having some pretty good content coming forward with Gypsy Rose Blanchard also. But in the meantime, I just want to leave you with this. The truth isn't just serious. The truth is drop dead serious.

[David Tennant]

Hi, Georgia.

[Unknown Advertiser]

Hi, David. What do you think the world needs more of?

[David Tennant]

Well, the world always needs more podcasts.

[Unknown Advertiser]

Didn't you used to have a podcast?

[David Tennant]

Not only did I used to have a podcast, Georgia, it's coming back. David Tennant does a podcast with Season three is coming at you.

[Unknown Advertiser]

Okay. And who are your guests?

[David Tennant]

Who are my guests? What about Russell T. Davis? What about Jamila Jamil? What about Stanley the Tuch Tucci?

[Unknown Advertiser]

So it's really just you hanging out with your mates then? Yeah.

[David Tennant]

Come join me. David Tennant does a podcast with Bye.