911 Dispatcher (4:51)

Washington county received a call from the visitor center. Two children are there. They advise that their parents were assaulted. One was possibly stabbed. The parents are missing. Ice walk. Hiking down for help. Read that. Say again. Repeat here. Yell. Calling for help. We're hiking down. Try to relay to the office. So we found the victims down here. They're on the lower Devil's Den Trail. Just a couple minutes. I think I see you right there. I've got two bodies down here.

Ashley Banfield (5:28)

Who would do such a thing to a family? Who would bring such immeasurable violence into such a peaceful place? Who would exact such cruelty onto two unsuspecting parents? Who Would terrorize two little girls and leave them orphans right there in the wilderness. Let me set the stage for you. Let me take you to Devil's Den. To say that this place is remote is an understatement. It is rugged. There's barely any cell service out there. It is way up in the northwest corner of Arkansas in Washington County. Back in the day, Franklin Roosevelt's civilian conservation corps built the park. That was back in 1933 during the Great depression. And it's in the Lee Creek Valley in the Boston mountains. It's as far away from Boston as you can get. It is basically the southwestern part of the Ozarks. And this topography is littered with sandstone caves and bluffs and ravines and rock shelters and crevices. It's got so many hiding places that it was a favorite hideout for outlaws. And during the civil War, it was also a staging area and a refuge for Confederate guerrilla soldiers who were conducting raids on the Union army supplies. There's an old town there called Anna that used to exist. It's a ghost town now. It was destroyed by a flood back in. In 1893. So all that remains now is this eerie cemetery. And hikers can see the remnants of the old town of Anna and also that cemetery from the trails that were built there. Nowadays, this area is considered sort of one of America's best preserved state parks. So it is no wonder that a family of four would consider this place an ideal spot for an outing on a beautiful Saturday in. In July. After all, it seems incredibly safe. Right? The park has trails and cabins and campsites, and many of those campsites have electricity and running water. So, yeah, even sort of a busy place for a bunch of peaceful campers, Mountain bikers, horseback riders and hikers, all who love peace and nature. This is not the kind of place that you would ever think a ruthless and maniacal killer would be lying in wait. But somebody was doing just that, it seems. Lying in wait. And the Brink family unknowingly stumbled right into his path. When police were notified in the afternoon that Clinton and Kristen Brink were found stabbed to death on the trail, their two little girls left behind to fend for themselves. It still took almost six hours before a public alert was issued when authorities began to realize the magnitude of what had happened in Devil's Den. The gravity of this crime. Two parents savagely murdered in front of their young daughters. Those daughters left orphaned in the wild. 7 and 9. Arkansas State Police launched a full scale manhunt. And they quickly released three key pieces of information. Number One, a composite sketch of a man who was seen in the area that day. The description, a white man with a medium build, wearing dark pants and a dark baseball cap and sunglasses. That's not much to go on. A surveillance photo was also released. It was sort of blurry, it was taken from behind, but you can clearly make out what that guy looks like from the back. The police also released a vehicle description, a black four door sedan, possibly a Mazda, with the license plate covered up with tape. They also said this, the attacker likely sustained injuries during the assault. And spoiler alert here, the attacker indeed sustained injuries during the assault. Left a lot of blood behind where that assault took place. And I'm going to get to all of that in just a moment. But for four days, a savage killer was out there somewhere on the loose. A man capable of the most barbaric violence. A cruel and vicious killer, one who might not stop at anything to avoid being caught. To say that terror was in the air does not even cover it. But then, on Wednesday, July 30, just before 5:00pm, four days after Clinton and Kristen were savagely murdered, Arkansas State Police closed in on a suspect. They tracked him to, of all places, a beauty salon and barbershop. The alleged killer, who had brutalized two parents and their children in Devil's Den just four days beforehand, was apparently getting himself a haircut. Calmly sitting in the stylist's chair as though nothing was wrong, nothing had happened. But something was about to happen. Authorities quietly, quietly walked into the salon. Very unassuming. There wasn't some massive SWAT takedown that you would think, right? If police think this is their guy, you think they've got this place surrounded, that they're going to protect all the innocent people inside the salon. Right, because there's a lot of sharp things in a salon, lots of scissors. There's a stylist presumably with scissors right next to him. Right. It was really, really unique. The way it's been told by the authorities is that they came in quietly and asked him, is that your car outside? Turns out they had tracked that vehicle to that salon. I don't know how, I don't know how because apparently there was tape over the license plate. But they tracked the vehicle to the salon and they identified that the vehicle was in the salon and that the suspect was in the chair getting a haircut. So in they came quietly and they asked him, is that your car outside? And these are my words. But effectively this was the communication. He said, yes. They asked if they could take a look inside the car. Apparently he agreed because they did, although I think they had all the probable cause in the world to just bust the window. And they found a blood like substance, something that appeared to be blood in the car. And they arrested him in that salon without any incident. A guy named Andrew James Mann. At first they thought he was James Andrew McGann. And the police put out a press release with James Andrew McGann, but they've corrected it since. It's Andrew James, man, 28 years old. Side note, Brian Coburger, who butchered four innocent people with a knife unexpectedly in the most peaceful place in their beds, was also 28 years old when he was arrested. So Andrew James McGann, 28 years old, allegedly butchering two parents with a knife while their children run for their lives. He's taken into custody at Lupita's Beauty Salon in Springdale. It's about 30 miles from the scene of the murders in Devil's Den, Lupita's Beauty salon and Barbershop. They charged him with two counts of capital murder. But who on God's green earth is Andrew James McGann? That's a great question and one that I think the Internet will pretty much go to town on in the coming days, weeks, months, and maybe even years. And hopefully we'll turn up as much as we can on this suspect. Innocent until proven guilty. According to multiple state officials, Andrew James McGann had just moved to Arkansas. He'd come from Oklahoma. And get this, he'd actually been hired by Springdale, the public school district, for the upcoming school year that was about to start next week. He had not even started his new job in Springdale. So he'd had no contact with the students or the families or anybody connected with the school system that we know of. At this job, right? At this job, he had no contact with kids and families. But according to CBS News and other reports, Andrew James McGann was a certified educator who had previously taught elementary school in a couple of different places in Broken Arrow and Sand Springs, Oklahoma. He'd recently moved to Springdale, as you just heard, October 2024. He was hired to begin teaching this upcoming year. 2025, 2026, school year. CBS got themselves an email stating that McGann had been placed on leave back in Texas back in 2023. Flower Mound, to be specific. Apparently there were complaints of poor classroom management, unprofessional behavior. A parent from Flower Mound, Texas, told CBS that McGann was reportedly, quote, very touchy with the girls, end quote. Kept them in from recess and made inappropriate comments. Other parents in Denton county had also raised concerns before he ended up resigning from the Louisville Independent School District. That same year, after McGann was arrested, the Arkansas State Police held a press conference and revealed even more heinous details about what happened in Devil's Den. So here's what they told us. The Arkansas State Police were able to identify him through the car and that they were able to track that car to the barbershop and that he was willing to give up the fact it was his car. That is the way they got him. He did not put up a fight. He did not try to obfuscate. He didn't try to run. He didn't try to suggest, not my car. Don't know what you're talking about. He admitted it full on. They said that he had cuts on his hands. Big giveaway when you got a stabbing murder, right? Fresh cuts on his hands. And inside his car, investigators saw what they called a substance that appeared to be blood. So then good old DNA comes in, right? DNA from the suspect turns out to match DNA from the scene. And I do want to tell you, there's a report that the officers at the. At salon, the grabbed hair cuttings from the salon. How brilliant, right?

Matt Murphy (16:02)

How great.

Ashley Banfield (16:03)

You know, a lot of times officers will follow a suspect until he drinks something and puts it down, and then they grab the cup or he eats pizza. Is in the Golden State or the Long island serial killer case. The suspect in that case, they grabbed a pizza box and there were all these crusts that were nibbled on inside the pizza box. And that was how they got the DNA from Rex Heuermann. But in this case, his hair clippings are literally right there at the stylist's chair because he's mid haircut. They didn't even allow him to finish. And you can tell from one of the pictures that they took in the early mug stage that he looks like he's only got half a haircut. But they grabbed the hair clippings, according to one report, so they could have made a DNA, you know, comparison very, very quickly. So they said that the DNA from the scene matches the DNA from the suspect. Quote, here we go. The suspect's injuries resulted in blood loss. His blood loss allowed them to develop a DNA profile, and it matched the suspects. Wow. I've been in this business a long time. And that's one of those things that people in the business of true crime and in litigating true crime call bad facts. Like, bad, bad facts. Because when you are fighting that in trial, as a defense attorney, that's one of the ones you look at as Everest. Oh, my client's blood is at the scene of a bloody stabbing. Very O.J. like. But let's be clear. This ain't O.J. so the officers searched McGann's residence. Of course, that's where you'd go right away. And this is what they said. There were articles found there that are consistent with being involved in this crime. They later got a little more specific about that and said that those items include, quote, things pictured with him in photo tips we received, were found at his home. So you can imagine that the picture we saw, at least the one they made public, maybe there are more that we don't know about yet. You can see what he's wearing. You can see a unique kind of backpack. If they found items that are consistent with that photograph in the home of this suspect, again, bad facts, real bad facts. Something that was interesting. They said in the press conference. They think that. They think that this suspect acted alone. If this is him, if he's the killer, they think he's the only one. And that he made a few statements. Thank you, Jesus. He made a few statements. Statements that he did it, that he's the guy. And I'm going to qualify this because this is important. And any defense attorney that ends up on his case is going to make a lot of hay on this one. They admitted in the press conference that he made an admission. They characterized it more as an admission, not a confession. I can tell you that they said the following about this family. Quote, the victims were a loving mother and loving father, that they protected their girls to the point where it cost them their lives. That just strikes me to the core. And I get so many scenarios going through my mind about what might have happened on that trail. All of it supposition, none of it based in fact. I don't know. I wasn't there. I don't have any of the evidence yet. Soon we all will. Though investigators say they've got no reason at this point to believe that there was any connection, any association. Quote, it appears to be a completely random event. They did confirm, as we already suspected and had been widely reported, that these victims died as a result of stab wounds and that the. The device, the murder weapon, was a knife. Quote, from what we know right now, we have no information to suggest that. That the girls were his target. They say they collected knives from the residents, but they don't know if what they have is the Murder weapon. They said he was completely cooperative when he was arrested. Then they go into a little bit more about the mechanics of the crime itself based on what the crime scene and the victim's bodies indicated. They said that the husband was attacked first and that they believe the mother took the girls and tried to get them to, to safety, maybe all the way to the car, but that she returned back down the trail back to the husband. I mean, wouldn't we all do that? Wouldn't we get our children to safety and, and secure them where we know that he can't find them and then run back to try to help or, or do something? You're not just going to walk away from your husband who's back there with a maniacal, you know, knife wielding killer. It just, every part of it just is so upsetting. Maybe, maybe he met her on the way back on the trail. She's coming back to her husband and he's meeting her there and I'll talk to Matt about this, but my hypothesis is that he sees her and now she's a witness and she's gonna find what happened to her husband and she's seen him. So maybe he stabbed her and killed her right there. Maybe they aren't killed in the same spot. Maybe they were. I don't know. We'll, we'll learn a lot more. This will be very satisfying to many viewers and listeners, but some of you may be upset about it. Understand both sides. The state is not going to waive the death penalty in this case. Look, no matter how you feel about the death penalty, the retributive aspect of it, the vengeance, maybe you feel we are so imperfect as people that we should not be passing that kind of ultimate judgment. Maybe that's God's judgment in some of your minds. Maybe you just think we're so bad at making mistakes and we do it so often that how could we possibly take someone's life on behalf of other citizens when you don't get a mulligan, whether you feel any of those things. The death penalty was made for this kind of guy, whoever it was who killed these innocent family members. This is what the death penalty was created for. The worst of the worst. People who would stab innocent mothers and fathers and leave these children in the wilderness at age 7 and 9. That's what the death penalty was made for. So if you're going to have it, if you're deciding who gets it, this is a no brainer and certainly Arkansas feels this way. But we don't know at this point about this suspect, if he has any history of mental health problems, this will shock you. It shocked me. The suspect has no criminal history. How on earth again, Bryan Kohberger. How do you go from zero to a thousand? You have no criminal history and yet you can do this. Allegedly. It just doesn't make sense. It just defies logic. You know, I can say this. I'm just looking through the documents that I've got. There's very, very few. But Andrew James McGann, 28 years old, 10 years ago, 11, he'd have been a juvie. And I think you all know if you follow true crime that if you're a juvie and you commit crimes, your record is often expunged upon turning 18 and being released. So I can't tell you if he did anything before he turned 1810 years ago. I don't know. But they will dig. They may not be able to find expunged means expunged. I don't know. But all they can tell us is that doesn't appear to have criminal history or mental health history. But maybe that'll come out. Maybe we'll learn about this guy. I don't know. Andrew James McGann, 28 years old, former teacher, elementary. He was certified for elementary and middle school. Arkansas State police say that social media was a problem here. I know we often talk about social media and I think they. It's been very helpful in a lot of cases. But in this particular case, social media, according to the state police, hindered the case. That's unsettling. I can't wait to find out more about that. As the case was unfolding, I was so just, I don't know, just I was sort of thrown off my axis just like, just like in Idaho. So I called Matt, Matt Murphy. Matt is a good friend. He is just hyper, super extraordinarily intelligent. As a homicide prosecutor, he tried a lot of high profile cases across Southern California and he learned so much, he literally wrote the book of murder. That's what it's called. Great read. I highly, highly recommend you pick up the book of murder by Matt Murphy. But I asked him all have at this early, early stage of this crime and boy, was he ever insightful. Here's our conversation. Matt, this is one of those stories that just doesn't make any sense.

Matt Murphy (25:17)

Yeah, this is almost a disturbingly increasing part of the American criminal landscape it seems with the Coburger plea last week and now this, this vicious, apparently totally random murder of two innocent people.

Ashley Banfield (25:32)

This is what I thought of is There you are saying coburger, because I don't know what we're going to learn. I don't know if there's any connection between these people. It sure doesn't look like it. And there's this guy who doesn't seem to be fighting what's being alleged, at least on these early reports, but a vicious attack with a knife, innocent people doing the most innocent of things. Hiking with your children. And this is what I thought. Are we seeing another mindset set? Somebody who planned. Again, this is all allegations, but it sure looks like there was some planning, some kind of effort to conceal his identity if this is the guy.

Matt Murphy (26:14)

Well, we sure learned a lot from that press conference that they just did, and it's very, very telling. So the, the state police participated in that and we learned a bunch of really interesting details. Number one, it appears that he used some sort of tape to alter his license plate. Now, if he did that beforehand, they weren't clear if it was before or after, but a obviously very telling. If you're going into a park like this, a national park, and making efforts ahead of time, that's hugely significant because that means he planned it before. She said that there was evidence, although they didn't specify what, that he had taken efforts basically to conceal his identity ahead of time, but that he was incredibly sloppy. Okay, so that's all very telling. If he took any of those steps ahead, that's premeditation, deliberation. That means that virtually any defense for the guilt phase of this trial is pretty much going to be blown out of the water by the prosecution almost immediately. So, in fact, so convincingly that an experienced defense lawyer may be reluctant even to run any of that. If he planned it, if he changed his license plate before he stabbed two people without any connection, without any apparent motive, that indicates that it was. He premeditated and deliberated this before he went and did it, which legally, of course, is hugely significant.

Ashley Banfield (27:30)

Well, and then also just the idea that it's such a. The halcyon environment of this state park. Devil's Den is so beautiful and quiet and. And remote, but it's trafficked. I mean, it is a hiking trail, a horseback riding trail, a biking trail. There's a visitor center not far from the trailhead that they were on. Like, it's not as though CO Burger picked victims in the middle of the night, you know, that he knew he could find in seclusion. But this had so many potential opportunities for being seen in the act or right after the act or right before the Act. It's just a little surprising.

Matt Murphy (28:11)

We don't know all the evidence yet or even close to it, but it appears that that was, that was fatal to whatever his plan was because the community really did participate. The state police spokesman or spokeswoman was very clear about how they had a great system in place. And I'd love to hear what it is because it was always tough when I worked on these task forces. But as far vetting the good information from the bad information, the high priority stuff like videos and things like that, and appears they got some of that because he chose a park to do this. And Ashley, can you imagine a more wholesome activity than, than going with your two daughters, seven and nine to a park to take a hike? I mean it's, it's like that's as all American G rated like family wholesome thing as you could possibly imagine. And they encounter some dude with who apparently based on what we know now, just wanted to kill somebody. If there really isn't any connection and there is no circumstance, even if it was some sort of a spontaneous quarrel, there is no circumstance where you in front of two children like that can justify murdering the mother, even if there's a dispute with the dad. And apparently they, she, she mentioned that the mother got the two daughters to safety that they were with and then went back down the trail. It's unclear if she was stabbed first or not, went back down the trail to try to help her husband and eventually died somewh closer to where her husband was killed.

Ashley Banfield (29:35)

I'm trying to go through the scenario in my head, as I always do and as I'm sure you do as well as a homicide prosecutor, you try to think of all the things, right? Like how did this play out and why. And all I can think of is maybe he's a meth head, maybe he was just trying to rob this family and the dad went after him and it was, it became violent and mom realized get the kids to safety and ran them as far as she could before she would go back to help her husband. And he encounters her again, all allegations and all supposition on my part. He encounters her on the trail and she is now a surviving witness. He doesn't see these little girls anywhere, but he sees this mother and she sees him and he knows I've got a dead man back there and she knows me and she's seen my face and that, that's why maybe she was killed as well.

Matt Murphy (30:25)

Well, legally. And this is again, this is interesting. A lot of people we've talked about this before in, you know, the general public, we tend to focus on the whodunit aspect of killings like this. You know, when the, it's shocking, it's horrible and we think who did it. And then once the arrest happens, a lot of people sort of lose track of what happens next in a, in, in the state of Arkansas, they still have the death penalty as a potential punishment. And when you look at the brutality of this, and even if robbery is the motive, and you're exactly right, and again, we are absolutely spitballing here, we don't know, we do not know. But even if it's robbery, even if it's, that's the scenario. That is what's known as a special circumstance. And in the state of Arkansas that still qualifies you for the death penalty. And when you're talking about the, the slaughter of two parents at the prime of their lives, I believe one was 40 and one was 41 in front of their seven and nine year old daughters. You know, there's a lot of people in Arkansas who are going to say I don't really care what the motive was under the circumstances, whether it was robbery, whether he wanted to kill. He had some beef against happy married couples, who knows and to a lesser extent, who cares this qualifies for the death penalty. The DA in this press conference already announced that he is, he thinks a jury should sort that out. Now that's another interesting parallel here. Right after Coburger pled guilty and was given life without parole instead of the death penalty, which was very, very controversial for good reason. So there's the guilt phase. And it appears he made, he made statements to police right after his arrest indicating that he was the one who actually killed them, to characterize it as an admission rather than a confession, indicating that he may have some spin on it that he wants, we don't know that he wants to get out there. But what's really interesting about this case from a purely legal aspect from my point of view is that when you're assessing a case like this for potential penalty and you look at this guy was licensed to teach middle school, I believe in three different states. He was a fourth grade teacher previously. He had just been hired in the state of Arkansas. It doesn't look like he'd started yet, but he, and, and, and in Texas, I think it was Oklahoma, Texas and Arkansas.

Ashley Banfield (32:39)

Yeah.

Matt Murphy (32:39)

So this is, this guy's a teacher, which means he went through background checks, which means if there is any history of pronounced mental illness, that's the Type of thing that may prevent him from getting a job like that. So there's no indication of that. The state police representative said that there was no criminal history that they're aware of. It's possible that he has some. Some juvenile history someplace that's tougher to get, especially in the. In the initial. But every penalty phase is about aggravating factors versus mitigating factors. And when the aggravating factors substantially outweigh any in mitigation, that's when juries are permitted to come back and recommend sentences of death. And in the state of Arkansas, actually, they actually execute people, unlike California and some other states. Yeah, they do.

Ashley Banfield (33:21)

It's one of those states where there has been a profound and aggressive effort to not only charge and prosecute for death penalty, but to carry them out as well.

Matt Murphy (33:33)

That's right. Look, and again, it's important we all keep an open mind. That's. That's critically important. And it's something that you and I, you as a journalist, myself, as a prosecutor, you're trained to keep an open mind to the entire process. But, boy, initially this looks pretty bad for him. And so many questions.

Ashley Banfield (33:50)

Everything you just said, I have. Oh, I have to ask him about that. Oh, I got to ask him. I mean, I literally have about 20 circling in my brain. So I'm going to start with the beginning. And that is. This is so co Burger esque. And since that's still percolating for me, this is one of those cases, Matt, where early on it looks dead to rights. Right. The early reporting from the press conference is that there is blood from the suspect that was expressed at the scene, or at least that's what the police are saying, that he. He was bleeding at the scene and they collected that blood and they did a blood match. They also collected his hair at the barber shop, which is instant D. So this is one of those cases. And again, with his admissions, not confessions, but admissions. We'll talk about that in a minute. That this looks like one of those cases where it's dead to rights. Slam dunk. All the things I thought about with Coburger, and instantly I started to think, will they. Will they cut a deal? Will they just put them away, get this done, save the state of Arkansas tens of millions. Save the remaining family members. These three daughters, there's two who were there, and apparently there's one more. Don't know if she's. Or he is older or younger, but do you think Arkansas would say, hell no, no deal?

Matt Murphy (35:06)

Yeah, I think. I think the latter for sure. Based on what I just saw, the look in the eye of that da. I mean, I've been in those press conferences more times than I can count with an elected district attorney who's looking at the severity of a case like this. And also, I think that in the. In the context of Coburger, there was. There was a pretty significant public outcry given the strength of the evidence in that case.

Ashley Banfield (35:28)

They were building a new execution chamber for a firing squad. I didn't think for a minute with all of that energy happening in Idaho, red state, Idaho, there is no way I thought there'd be a plea deal. They were building the chamber almost for him.

Matt Murphy (35:43)

Right. And look, I gotta tell you, and I'm not hardcore one way or another, but I've prosecuted eight death penalty cases myself, and I really disagreed with the prosecutor and Coburger. And this is another one of those cases. If it. If it turns out to be. And again, long way to go in the investigation here. If it turns out to be that this was some dude who just decided to go and murder two innocent people. There are certain cases actually, like, we have to consider murders, like, on the spectrum, the entire taxonomy of murder cases, the vast majority are domestic violence. Okay. Those aren't death penalty cases. Robberies gone wrong, oftentimes, 7, 11. Those. Those aren't death penalty cases either.

Ashley Banfield (36:22)

Gang members, drug dealers, circumstance. Yeah. They're things that boil up and over. And there are a lot. There's a lot of psychology that leads prosecutors to say this isn't death penalty.

Matt Murphy (36:30)

There are certain cases that are just so heinous and so brutal and so gratuitous that they kind of scream out for the ultimate penalty. Okay. And when you're talking about the age of these victims, seven and nine. Okay. And I dealt with child. Child victims in sexual. Sexual assault for four years before I went into homicide. And the youngest, you have to do what's called qualifying a witness. Okay. And that means you've got to establish that the witness is able to tell the difference between the truth and a lie. And the cutoff among even the most skilled lawyers is about five or six. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, it depends. Some states actually have a cutoff, but in California, where I practice, basically, they've got to be able to demonstrate that they know the difference between the truth and a lie. And psychologically, the development of their brains, that's right around that age, like five to seven somewhere in there. So the advantage for the prosecution in a case like this is I predict both of these little Girls will be able to testify. The case probably won't go to trial until they're maybe 9, 10, 11 years old. So they'll, they will be able to qualify them if they feel they need to. The horrific disadvantage.

Ashley Banfield (37:42)

Can I jump in there, though? Just because I did cover a case where AJ Hutto was seven when he witnessed the murder of his big sister, Adriana, or Ariana, I have to remember that name. But there was a hue and a cry over the fact that he was 7 and his answers seemed to be all over the page. And so much of it was established at the time of interrogation. And that is such a science, interrogating children at that age. They're so suggestible. And so with these two, if they were smart and kept them apart, kept these two survivors, these little kids, these girls, and interviewed them separately, they can beautifully corroborate one another without any suggestion at all and say everything they knew.

Matt Murphy (38:28)

And saw or maybe. Yeah. And of course, children develop at different rates, we all know that. But. And, or maybe it's the type of thing that you want to call them both. I mean, they might want to take a hard look at just calling one of them, especially if he made admissions like she doesn't have to identify him if he admitted that he was there or the blood being there. But the, the tragic part about that is that also at 7 and 9, they're going to remember this. They will be traumatized by what they saw that day for the rest of their lives. Now, when you consider that as an aggravating factor, boy, oh boy, almost any death qualified jury is going to attribute a significant weight when they're considering life without parole or the death penalty. And I'll tell you what, that is one of those things, the fact that you've got two little girls that are going to be traumatized by that unnecessarily, apparently, based on what we know now for the rest of their lives, that this looks initially like one of those cases where seeking the ultimate penalty would.

Ashley Banfield (39:22)

Be appropriate, isn't it? Also, it's either an aggravator or it's a qualifier in some way. If you're eliminating a witness, that is also an element of a crime that, that elevates a death penalty, isn't it? If you eliminate a witness.

Matt Murphy (39:36)

Oh, yeah. Even if the. Yeah, if it's a beef with dad, which, which there's no way it actually is. Maybe he claims that like there's some, some guy out there with his wife and his two beautiful kids is not starting a fight. With a dude with a knife for no reason. Like, that's. But even if it was, you're absolutely right. Even if he just killed the wife because she's a witness, that by alone, that killing, even if the husband somehow survived that killing alone will qualify him for the death penalty in the state of Arkansas. Now, another thing I got to point out here, There's a thing in forensic science known as masking. And I've been to quite a few stabbing murder scenes over the course of my career, and I can tell you, I mean, sometimes, bizarrely, there's almost no blood at all, but they tend to be helter skelter, where people die in stabbing. It's not like tv. They, they don't die immediately upon a stab. It's called exsanguination. They run around, they fight, they, they, they try to protect family. And there's blood everywhere. The fact that the crime lab was able to isolate blood apparently from the suspect's hand in this case is really, really good police work. And they talked about the FBI. They had real pros here. They came in. But somewhere behind the scenes, there was some probably, sorry, some nerdy crime lab personnel who showed up to do their job. And they did it incredibly well. Because when you have really bloody crime scenes, it's really tough to isolate that one drop that came from the suspect. And if there's mixing in there, that's also, however, guessing. Yeah, so that's the masking. If there's a small amount of blood from the suspect mixed with a great deal from the, from the victim, what, what happens is it overwhelms the DNA in the, in the PCR or the, the processing of DNA. There's so much victim DNA that it will actually overwhelm the trace amounts of suspect DNA. So that's another thing. There was behind the scenes on this one. There was some top notch lab work. If they were able to identify this guy that quickly, especially with just a couple of blood drops at the scene.

Ashley Banfield (41:33)

My head is spinning because I'm thinking mom and dad didn't make it back from the trail. Right? He did, allegedly. If it's this guy, he did. And he's bleeding the whole way. So maybe somewhere along the trail they've got blood. And it sure as hell isn't from mom and dad, who never made it past that point. Or in the parking lot, he's getting his keys, he's getting his stuff into the trunk and drip, drip, drip, drip, drip in the parking lot where that car was.

Matt Murphy (41:58)

Yeah, well, they also, yes, that's entirely possible. Another thing that a lot of people don't know. Again, this is something you see on tv that victim gets stabbed and they immediately fall. I watched a movie last night on. On Vacation, small Tom Cruise movie with Cameron Diaz where somebody gets stabbed with a knife and instantly dies. The. The. When people use knives to kill other people, it is. Coburger had what's known as a KA Bar. That's a Marine Corps knife designed for one purpose, and that's combat, fighting other people. So there's that, that T on swords, you know, the handle on swords. A lot of people think that that's for dueling. It's not. It's because when you're stabbing somebody, blood tends to go everywhere. Blood is a viscous substance. It's slippery, and so people wind up sliding when they stab. When you hit a bone, the knife will stop and the hands will slide over. Sorry, O.J. but you're dead now, buddy. When he committed those murders, that's why O.J. simpson cut his hand because he. His hand slipped down on the knife because it was a. Like a pocket knife type of. Type of thing, where it was protection.

Ashley Banfield (43:03)

Didn't have the.

Matt Murphy (43:04)

Didn't have the protection for the hand. That's right.

911 Dispatcher (43:06)

Right.

Matt Murphy (43:06)

So whatever knife. And they, they said they recovered several. They haven't gotten them to the yet. This is all brand new information, but they recovered several. They haven't tested them yet. But if he cut his hand, you see that? Honestly, Ashley, I would say over 50%, maybe as high as 80% of the murders that you have with stabbings somewhere in the melee, the killers almost always wind up cutting themselves. The question is, do you have crime lab personnel sharp enough and professional enough to isolate those blood drops or the right mixture to identify and isolate that.

Ashley Banfield (43:38)

Person'S DNA right there at the killing scene? Because it's one thing to find a cut in the parking lot where the guy says, I was hiking, I cut my hand, I went back to my car. I don't see those people. And it's another to say, well, how did you miss it if your blood's mixed in with theirs? Because clearly, if your blood's with theirs, their blood was there.

Matt Murphy (43:56)

Right, right. And. And look, there's. You can identify when blood mixes with blood. You can do they. They call minor or major contributors. So you can. As long as there isn't too much victim blood, you can isolate two genetic profiles. I had a murder case. It was a stabbing murder. It was a double out of Irvine. My Vincent Wei Choi Chung case. Where it was basically a love triangle. He murdered his ex boyfriend and his ex boyfriend's new boyfriend. And in that particular case, it was such a mess. And he wound up washing his hands in a water hazard in a golf course on his way back to his car. And there was one tiny drop that landed on the door sill of the car. There wasn't even any heme or hemoglobin in it. So it's just really good forensic work where they swabbed that and we had a triple genetic mixture. And what's interesting is a lot of people, when they, you think back to the OJ case in the early 90s, that was what's called RFLP, which was the gel DNA. Now they use these kits, profiler plus is what it's called, where they're able to isolate unique parts of the human genome, where there's human variation. And that's how you get these incredibly incredible statistics. Like I had one that was 1 in 17, quadrillion as far as the DNA match goes. Now, all of that simply corroborates, apparently. We already said if he put himself at the scene, this suspect. But you, that is some of the most powerful evidence you can imagine. Where you're going through, they're called loci or the locations where you get the graphs in the, in the printouts and you get, if the jury, if it's presented the right way, you can anticipate where the alleles or the little peaks on the graph are going to, are going to pop up. And it's almost like I talk about this in my book, it's almost the technology and the biochemistry behind it is impossibly complex. Kind of like our cell phones, right? Like the technology of how our cell phone works. It's voodoo for me, who knows satellites and I know there's a lot. But if your job as a juror is just figure out, hey, what's it a video of? If your aunt sends you a funny part video of a cat on Instagram, you can say, that's a cat. That's basically what a jury is called to do when it comes to DNA evidence. It's like you look at the alleles, you look at the piece and go, that's that guy. It is incredibly convincing. That's the power of modern DNA. And it sounds like they have it in this case.

Ashley Banfield (46:17)

So let's talk about the difference, because we, we touched at the beginning and I want to pull this thread about the difference between a confession and an admission because they were very clear in the news. Conference that it was more of an admission, not a confession. Explain the differ.

Matt Murphy (46:33)

Sure. So a confession would be when a criminal suspect waives their rights properly and proceeds to admit every element of the charged crime. In other words, I premeditated and deliberated this. I went in with every intention to kill somebody. I picked these people at random. I slaughtered the father, I murdered the mother, and then I left. Like that would be a confession. An admission would be, yeah, I was there, but there's a reason why I did it, or I was present, but somebody else did it. Those would be admissions where you admit facts that are certainly going to be used against you, but it's not fully essentially agreeing with the accusations against you. And that's a sliding scale. She characterized it today as an admission, not a confession. We'll have to see how that ultimately pans out when we actually take a look at the evidence ourselves.

Ashley Banfield (47:30)

Let me, let me jump back a bit in time because we're all trying to figure out who this guy is, right? If he is the killer, we're co burgering him right now, trying to just dissect everything. How on God's green earth do you end up this way? If this is you? And all we can go on is that he was a teacher in multiple states, like you said, Texas, Oklahoma, Arkansas. But there are some reports, I don't have them fully confirmed right now, but some reports that are coming in from parents and school districts saying that he was. His behavior in the classroom was very unsettling, that he was inappropriate with some of the girls, he had them sitting on his lap. Again, these are all just early reports. I don't have this con confirmed. And that he went on his way. Whether he was fired or whether he left under duress from the parents. Is that any indication here of why he would go after a family and then not kill the children, but kill their parents?

Matt Murphy (48:32)

Well, again, we are wildly speculating now. We just don't know and we don't know if that is true at all. Right. But I can tell you that's another. If that is the motive. In other words, if his, if his real goal was to get at one of those kids, again, Arkansas, he's, he's, he is done for if the evidence is as strong as it's. As it looks today. Because if that is, if the father heroically saved his daughter, some sort of.

Ashley Banfield (48:56)

Which their family says is true, you know, the poor victims, family members have come forward and said that, that Clinton is a hero and that Kristen is as well, that they saved the girls. So that for all intents and purposes, they seem to know more than we do.

Matt Murphy (49:12)

Yeah, well, we've talked about this before. Mike Tyson, who I actually met in New York recently, believe it or not, randomly, is very nice to me. But he has one really deep quote, and that's. He's talking about boxing. And he said, everybody has a plan till they get in the ring and get punched in the face. That's the thing. That's what I believe we saw in Coburger and are really a lot of parallels here. Coburger had a plan. What it was, I don't think we will ever know, but he had a plan. When he went into that house with that knife and things went, as they say, pear shaped, you know, there was a second woman in the bed that he certainly wasn't anticipating. Ethan is there. Six foot four, strapping young man who probably comes downstairs. Like there's. It, it went. It went off the rails. This could be one of those situations too, where maybe he's got a plan. Maybe he wants to kill two people. Maybe he's after those kids. Maybe it's a robbery gone wrong. We just don't know. But whatever his plan was sure didn't work very well because they caught him within a week. And again, this has all the hallmarks, Ashley, of a really good police investigation. They started listing the people that were instrumental. They included Arkansas Fish and Game in that. The FBI was involved in it. I wrote them down. Springfield Police Department, Lafayette Police Department, the sheriff's department, I mean, Springdale Police. You know, when these, when these task forces come together, in my experience, when you, when you bring in the FBI, especially in cases involving little kids, you see these, these, this disparate group of law enforcement professionals. I wish everybody out there could see how these cops, the women and men on these task forces, how they interact seamlessly. Everybody, like, I mean, I've seen this time and time again. And I wish the general public could see how dedicated and hardworking these people are when they come together. One of my old cases, the Samantha Runyon case, it was like that because she was missing for a while. And I was in these task force meetings with the FBI and the sheriff's department and the local police department, and you see everybody coming in and the crime lab personnel, it really is behind the scenes. And I, I should be waving a flag as I say this, but they need it these days that when professional police officers are at their best. They're some of the finest people I've ever encountered in my life. And in this case, it really looks like that happened. Another interesting thing that came up. Not to jump ahead of you here, but one of the reporters in that press conference asked about social media, and we really do live in an interesting time, don't we? As far as there's that. That, that documentary that you and I have talked about before, Don't f. With Cats, where online sleuths literally came together and solved a murder. Yeah. And. And, I mean, it did amazing things and, and essentially shamed the Canadian police into taking action against a guy who absolutely would have killed again if he wasn't caught. But we have other cases, like in Coburger, where there was one woman in particular, but there were a bunch of people that went along with it. They called themselves pro burgers. They should all be ashamed of themselves as far as I'm concerned right now. Sorry.

Ashley Banfield (52:23)

Agreed.

Matt Murphy (52:23)

But they, they. This woman kept posting over and over again about a totally innocent professor. The professor at the university.

Ashley Banfield (52:33)

Oh, my God.

Matt Murphy (52:34)

Completely innocent. And. And even now, Cobrger's admitted it.

Ashley Banfield (52:38)

Even after litigation wrapped up, continued the failing behavior. I could not understand it for the life of.

Matt Murphy (52:45)

It's called the Dunning Kruger effect. It's a psychological condition, essentially, meaning if you're really stupid, how do you know? Right. And that's the thing. People, they want to be the smartest. They want. They want to know the inside thing. It's like a lot of conspiracy theorists, I hate to say it, fall into that category. It's like, well, wait a second, we didn't land on the moon because there's. You can't see the stars. And, you know, stuff like that. It's. It's like, you know, people tend to. Tend to buy into that.

Ashley Banfield (53:13)

Cut you off. Because I'm going to say this is where I fear sometimes with jury select and we rely on these jurors for their ability to ascertain reasonable doubt. Reasonable.

Matt Murphy (53:26)

That's right.

Ashley Banfield (53:26)

And reasonable. They always come back and say, what's the definition of reasonable doubt? Et cetera. And it's like, there's no definition. It's what's reasonable to you. How unreasonable are you? You know.

Matt Murphy (53:37)

Right. And that's where, look, the skill and the talent of really good prosecutors, career prosecutors that are improperly trained are treated well, and the elected DA makes efforts to retain the real pros really becomes important. And the people that I learned from were masters at this. They were dedicated to the safety of their communities. And they were. It was a. It was a trial office and it was a trial philosophy. So in cases like this, unlike COBurger, Orange County DA's office where I worked, we wouldn't make offers on any of our murder cases like. Like our sexual assault cases, there was always some negotiation, like, would he be willing to take this in exchange for that? There was always some of that. On all the other felonies, we would do that, but not in murders. We would let a jury sort out what the degree was, whether or not there was a special circumstance or not, whether it was death or life in the very, very rare, super shocking, overwhelming proof cases where we believe seeking the ultimate penalty was appropriate. And we sought that actually in less than 4% of the eligible cases, by the way. So. And this case apparently on the surface has all the hallmarks, but going back to social media for a second, the police commander, the woman, the spokesperson was up there at the microphones, who seemed really sharp to me. The question was, did social media help? And she said, no, actually, it made things worse. It was brutal. You have keyboard warriors questioning everything that law enforcement was doing, and it was really difficult for the families. And. And to shift gears here for a second, I just represented a woman who was involved in this dentist in Colorado who murdered his wife. Poisonous wife. He's convicted today. And here's just quick side note. She was a dentist, meets him at a dental conference, had been separated from her husband for a year and a half, and goes on essentially a couple of dates with this guy. And he wound up murdering his wife apparently to get her out of the way so that he could go all in with my client. My client was totally innocent, did everything right, cooperated with law enforcement to a T. And the stuff Ashley that. That she was subjected to online was shocking. And even the. The. And I won't even. I don't even want to name it, but there was a British news outlet who published photographs of her kids. You know, so that. That social. That social media thing can be very good, like we saw in F Don't F with cats. But there's a dark side to it, and it can be really awful. And it sounds like, we don't know all the circumstances. Sounds like it made it very difficult for the family in this particular.

Ashley Banfield (56:14)

Gabby Petito was a great example of social media coming in and helping to actually solve that case. I don't know that they found all of the evidence that effectively let us know that Brian Laundrie killed Gabby.

Matt Murphy (56:29)

Yeah. And listen, just so your listeners or your viewers are clear on this, I love the true crime community. I love that, number one Some of the nicest people you could ever meet. But it's people that are making affirmative efforts to understand this stuff, to educate themselves on how the law works, how hard detectives work, and including cases where sometimes the prosecution has the wrong guy. That happens too. Like that. That whole side of, like the educational aspect. And the vast majority of people in the true crime world really do. It's coming from a good place. They really want to get it right. They want to learn. 100 kudos. And I'm grateful that they exist. I'm not talking about them at all. I'm talking about the people that, that decide they're smarter than the, Than the detectives that are in it or they know more than the judge or the prosecutor, they. That weigh in, you know, and look.

Ashley Banfield (57:17)

There are different ills.

Matt Murphy (57:18)

These are public things. And criticism is appropriate under, under the right circumstances.

Ashley Banfield (57:22)

There is some. There is unmatched cruelty among some of these trolls online. I just. I have spoken at length with Shanann Watts's family members, her brother, her parents. And the amount of abuse that these surviving victims, family members, have undergone for the last half decade is unimaginable. They've been in and out of court trying to stop people from just the overwhelming, painful harassment that they are undergoing. Having been victims of Chris Watts murdering their sister and their grandchildren and their nieces, I can't get my head around who does this, who attacks grieving relatives and just have fun with it. But they. They exist and they are horrendous. And I wish there were laws to lock them up. It goes beyond First Amendment. In my, in my, you know, in my feelings and my thoughts, there should be legislation that is beyond harassment, that is. That is criminal and cruel.

Matt Murphy (58:29)

Well, a very wise professional journalist once told me it's like peanuts at the screen. And that was, of course, you. A lot of people that get behind their keyboards and start throwing stuff, it's like 20 years ago, they would have been throwing peanuts at the TV screen. They hate what you're saying. And that was the recourse. Then maybe they could write a strongly worded letter that they put a stamp on and mail to the station. Now everybody's armed with a keyboard. And I think that it's a really interesting part of the modern landscape. But the vast majority of people out there, I truly believe, are good. The vast majority of jurors are good. And you're talking about that Dunning Kruger effect on jurors. And look, that happens sometimes they slip through the nets, but hopefully in this area in Arkansas, they'll have professionals prosecuting it. That DA seemed steely eyed to me. You know, I don't know him, I've never met him. But his performance in that press conference, I thought that was a guy that wants to take care of business and do it right. That was my impression. And if they do that, you know, that's where the skill of a trial lawyer really comes to bear. It's the voodoo almost of, of picking out my buddy Bruce Moore, he was in homicide with me. He used to call it the cry of the loon during vor dire, the selection of the jury. It's trying to pick out the subtle tells that a crazy person might give off during jury selection. Sometimes it's super obvious, but a lot of times it's not. And that really is where the skill of the individual prosecutors and detectives really come to bear. And, you know, it's really an underappreciated art form. And that's just picking out, you know, in the brief interaction of that juror from the time they stand up and sitting down. A case like this will have questionnaires, so the prosecution and the defense too will be afforded the opportunity to learn a lot more about them. And you know, curiously, one of the most telling things in death penalty cases, and these questionnaires are like 30 pages long and you'll ask them a million different kinds of questions. But the most telling one I think of all is where do you like to get your news? In our polarized society, where the news outlet, their preferred news outlets, is often really indicative of how they're going to be as far as defense or prosecution oriented jurors.

Ashley Banfield (60:42)

Let me ask you about the arrest because I'm trying to teleport myself into that barbershop slash beauty salon. When I first heard that that's where he was arrested, I thought they'd come in guns blazing and they'd everybody down. I mean, is a maniacal killer who's willing to take parents out in front of their kids with a knife. Who knows what he's got on him. And this poor woman behind him has scissors. I thought that it would be a very aggressive arrest with a SWAT team. They walked in and just said, is that your car? I mean, walk me through that whole scenario and, and how that played out in the psychology behind. How do we go in and get him? He's in there, there and he's sitting in the chair.

Matt Murphy (61:25)

Well, that's, I, I think I. Once again, I think this, that speaks to real pros in law enforcement. Now, had it been a Shooting. It might be a little bit different if they suspected that he had a gun. But these guys, whoever they were, walked in, they've got their vests on, those are stab proof. So worst case scenario. But I mean, there's a famous Clint Eastern movie where he, he's getting his. He's getting a shave and he's got a gun underneath the. The smock. Right. So. But that is the, That's a pro. I picture some older, very experienced FBI agent or maybe one of the local sheriffs walking in and saying, hey, we got to talk to you. And never putting him, you know, in that reflexive defensive posture. They get him while he's sitting down. They. I'm certain they watch them go in. And, you know, one, one funny thing that I got to say, and I, I don't want to. They've always been very nice to me. I'm talking about CNN here. But one of the, one of the pictures they show him, he's in, he's in a smock because they've taken his clothes and they say, still wearing the barber's apron. And I just had to point that out. I got a chuckle out of that.

Ashley Banfield (62:31)

Right? There's no way he's still wearing the barber's apron.

Matt Murphy (62:35)

No, they took the barber's apron off. He's in a smock because they've got to take his clothes for forensic processing. But I thought that is. And again, it's, it's one of the errors.

Ashley Banfield (62:42)

I thought the same thing. It's like, no, he's not got the smock on. They'd long taken that off. But I, I do question, because obviously this guy, if he's the killer, is so incredibly lethal and has zero morals. And so this poor granddaughter who was the reported stylist, the granddaughter of the owner of the salon, could so quickly have become a hostage with those, you know, cutting scissors at her neck. And I wondered if the strategy would be. And I'm. I don't do your work. I don't do policing work. But I imagine I would have called the salon and I would have said, call the stylist over to the desk, get, get separation, and then come in and ask questions so that there's nobody within his vicinity who can be grabbed and held and held hostage.

Matt Murphy (63:29)

Yeah. Now, this is one of the fascinating things about the personality type of somebody who do something like this, right. And, and the word that everybody's heard before, but so few people actually know what it, what it really means is psychopathic. Okay? So somebody who do this has all the hallmarks of potentially being a psychopath. And when it comes to psychopaths, one of the, the cornerstone traits is they have no empathy for other people. But they also have profound narcissism and, and self aggrandizing thoughts. And they are the one human being that every psychopath truly cares about are themselves. And so you, you go in with, with three or four no nonsense FBI, FBI agents and he's sitting down in a chair. That guy knows under those circumstances he is going to take a beating or worse if he were to try anything like that. So I think that was their strategy. They walked in very calmly, immediately put him in a position where he's at a physical disadvantage and took him down and, and did so without any resistance. And the most experienced cops, that's exactly how they would do it. And, and you're right, sometimes we've all seen these cases where they go in super heavy with SWAT and that's not necessarily inappropriate. But gosh, can you imagine going with an M4 with some poor innocent woman standing behind him. M4 is a, is a rifle or an AR15 or something that can go right through him and into some poor victim. They didn't want to do that. They hooked him exactly in my opinion, the way they should have. He's, he's by himself. He, it appears he acted alone, all indications already acted alone. And they went in and put him in a position where fighting, resisting or anything else would have been very bad for him.

Ashley Banfield (65:03)

There's so much I still want to know about this case, as I'm sure you do. But I think we're all going to have to be patient and wait as the, you know, this is still in its infancy. We're just days into it. So I can't wait and I hope you'll talk to me again once we learn more, Matt.

Matt Murphy (65:19)

Of course, anytime. Love your show, Ashley.

Ashley Banfield (65:21)

Thanks Matt. My great thanks to Matt Murphy. I am always just in awe of his body of work and his knowledge and especially when we all are so unset when a crime like this happens and it just doesn't seem possible like Idaho. It's just helpful to have the guiding hand of someone like Matt who can help us to understand at least what's likely to happen, at least what's going to happen in the criminal procedure that's about to follow. He can at least give us some, I don't know, some satisfaction in knowing that there's enough evidence there to present a robust case to keep this person, if he's guilty, behind bars forever until he dies, either by natural causes or the hand of the state. So many questions that are left unanswered. And I will keep you posted on all of this. I'm on the case. My friends, as I always say, I am so appreciative of our community. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you for watching. Thank you for listening. And remember, the truth isn't just serious, it's drop dead seriously.