← Drop Dead Serious With Ashleigh Banfield
Drop Dead Serious With Ashleigh Banfield
Taken From Her Bed in the Dark of Night? New Twist in the Nancy Guthrie Mystery
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Hi there.
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A
We're looking to get to the campground.
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B
Well, you're going to take a left at the old oak tree end of this here road. No, I'm just kidding. Let me get my phone out.
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A
How are you getting a signal out here?
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B
T Mobile and US Cellular decided to merge. So the network out here is huge. We're getting the same great signal as the city and saving a boatload with all the benefits. Oh, and a 55 year price guarantee. Okay, here's those directions.
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Hey everyone, I'm Ashley Banfield. It is Tuesday, February 24, which means it's day 24 in the search for Nancy Guthrie. And there's news today and it's hard to watch. Honestly, Savannah Guthrie making another Instagram appeal. But this time you she in week four has come out and said that she and the family want to offer a million dollar reward for information that could lead to whoever it was that took her mother. When I say it's heartbreaking to watch, it's heartbreaking to watch because you can just feel the agony and the pain in Savannah's voice going into the fourth week not knowing what's happened to her mom. And I don't know how much she knows about the investigation either because the rest of us are confounded that this could happen in this day and age. No trace. An 84 year old woman taken from her home with no trace. Have a look at what Savannah Guthrie said in her post. Hi there. Coming on to say it is day 24 since our mom was taken in the dark of night from her bed. And every hour and minute and second and every long night has been agony since then of worrying about her and fearing for her, aching for her and most of all, just missing her. Just missing her. We know that millions of you have been praying. So many people have been praying of every faith and no faith at all, praying for her return. And we feel those prayers. Please keep praying without ceasing. We still believe. We still believe in a miracle. We still believe that she can come home. Hope against hope. As my sister says, we are blowing on the embers of hope. We also know that she may be lost. She may already be gone. She may have already gone home to the Lord that she loves and this dancing in heaven with her mom and her dad and with her beloved brother Pierce and with our daddy. If this is what is to be, then we will accept it. But we need to know where she is. We need her to come home. For that reason, we are offering a family reward of up to $1 million for any information that leads us to her recovery. All of the information about this reward and the details is in the caption below. You can call the 1-800-TIP-RINEL. You can be anonymous if you want. Someone out there knows something that can bring her home. Somebody knows. We are begging you to please come forward now. We also know that we are not alone in our loss. We know there are millions of families that have suffered with this kind of uncertainty. And for that reason, today we also are donating $500,000 to the national center for Missing and Exploited Children for their work and helping families who are coping with loss and actively looking for those who are lost. We are hoping that the attention that has been given to our mom and our family will extend to all the families like ours who are in need and need prayers and need support. So, please, if you hear this message, if you've been waiting and you haven't been sure, let this be your sign to please come forward, tell what you know, and help us bring our beloved mom home so that we can either celebrate a glorious, miraculous homecoming or celebrate the beautiful, brave, and courageous and noble life that she has lived. Please be the light in the dark. Thank you. I don't know if you caught some of the language in there, and I'm not sure what to make of it, but I did specifically hear Savannah say something that the sheriff had said early on and then walked back, and it was this. She said, Day 24. Since our mom was taken in the dark of night from her bed. I think it was about week one that the sheriff said that Nancy Guthrie was taken from her bed. And it was reported widely. And the sheriff, the next day or the next two days, I think, walked it back and said I was speaking figuratively, not literally. And so to this day, we really, investigatively do not know what happened inside that home. Where did Mrs. Guthrie encounter this. This. This criminal, this suspect? But. And again, I'm not sure if Savannah was speaking literally or figuratively. I know she's a journalist and words matter, and she's careful with her words, but had taken from her bed. It made me think a lot more about the possibilities of who this attacker was. Was this somebody was just there to rob the place and was startled and did what he did, or was this someone who was there to rob Savannah's mother, to rob Nancy Guthrie? Because if she was taken from her bed, it's entirely possible that she was the only thing that that attacker wanted in that home, that there was no intended burglary that might have gone wrong. And there's one other element that I want to bring up, and that is something that came up in the New York Times weeks ago. It was a very small mention deep down in a piece about Nancy Guthrie's friends, But one of her friends happened to mention that Mrs. Guthrie had recently begun using a cane and very powerful hearing aids. And if you know anything about hearing aids, especially the elderly who begin to use hearing aids, you don't sleep in them. Typically, you don't sleep in them. You take them out at night. My mom is 87, and I know for a fact that when you take them out, you can sleep like a rock and you won't hear anything necessarily. And it's very possible that with very powerful hearing aids, it's very possible that Mrs. Guthrie wouldn't have heard anyone smashing lights outside, damaging those spotlights that we all saw on the Fox, you know, drone video at the back of the house. It's very possible she may not have heard a forced entry. I have a source, high level source, who said there was forced entry. Second source, also law enforcement concurring, there was forced entry, but the back door was wide open. It is entirely possible that when you take those hearing aids out at night, if you're not wearing them while you're sleeping, you might not have heard a commotion outside. You might not have heard the ring alert that might have gone off saying, there's someone at your front door. So it just adds another element to this. If what Savannah is saying is literal, that she was, you know, taken in the dark of night from her bed, this changes the metric of it. Listen, investigators know more than we do. Definitely not all of them, but investigators know more than we do. But this definitely changes all of the scenarios that have been running through so many people's heads. There's a few other things that Savannah said in her Instagram. She's also donating $500,000, a half a million dollars to the national center for Missing and Exploited Children. The people who do the incredible work of tracking, you know, young people who are taken or who are missing. And they do find so many of these young people. And it's just unbelievably magnanimous that in this time of her family's grief, that she would do this, that she would make that overture to the national center for Missing and Exploited Children. Understandably, her mother's case has gotten an inordinate amount of attention for good reason. It's mystifying. It is absolutely mystifying what happened, what could have happened, why it happened. But there's also that high profile nature that Savannah brings to the case, and that may be the motive behind Savannah giving the half million dollars to the national center for Missing and Exploited Kids. In our line of work, we often abbreviate it to NCMEC. They have a great presence at CrimeCon. They do such remarkable work. I've been working with national center for Missing and Exploited children since the 90s. So I'm, you know, intimately familiar with the remarkable work that, that they do. So something else Savannah acknowledged. And again, I said it was heartbreaking and you might have seen it and it might have lodged with you as well that she's acknowledging that it is entirely possible that her mom might no longer be with us. And that's. That's a very painful thing to hear. Savannah say. But it is also something that I think many people who've been invested in this case, the investigators who are working so hard in this case have to acknowledge after a certain period of time that things change in an investigation. Things change in what the mission is, the recovery, the rescue version versus recovery. So hearing Savannah say that just. It's just makes you heartsick to realize that that's where her mind is going as well. So some other reporting that came out today, we had been hearing that the DNA source that was recovered from inside the home, the male, the unknown male DNA source that was recovered inside the home that doesn't match any of Nancy Guthrie's immediate friends and family that was sent off to Florida to a phenomenal lab, DNA Labs International in Deerfield Beach, Florida, and that they had been having trouble separating out that DNA from a mixture. We didn't know what trouble would mean.
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- [13:53]
A
We're lost. I'm gonna pull over and ask that man for directions.
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B
Hi there.
- [13:58]
A
We're looking to get to the campground.
- [14:00]
B
Well, you're gonna take a left at the old oak tree end of this here road. No, I'm just kidding. Let me get my phone out.
- [14:06]
A
How are you getting a signal out here?
- [14:07]
B
T Mobile and US Cellular decided to merge. So the network out here is huge. We're getting the same great signal as the city and saving a boatload with all the benefits. Oh, and a five year price guarantee. Okay, here's those directions.
- [14:19]
A
Actually, can you point us in the direction of A T Mobile Store America's
- [14:23]
B
best network just got bigger. Switch to T Mobile today and get built in benefits the other guys leave out. Plus our five year price guarantee. And now T Mobile is available in US Cellular stores. Best Mobile network based on analysis by Ookle of Speedtest Intelligence data@2H2025 bigger network the combination of T Mobile's and US Cellular's network footprints will enhance the T Mobile network's coverage price guarantee. On talk text and data exclusions like taxes and fees apply. See t mobile.com for details.
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The new WeGovy pill is now available through Weight Watchers. Powerful GLP1 results in a simple pill at the lowest price available. And with Weight Watchers you can get doctor support and personalized nutrition programs. See if you qualify@weightwatchers.com adnot reviewed or approved by Novo Nordisk that they would eventually get it separated and then load it up to codis. But we're getting reporting now. Libby Dean from News Nation. She's been reporting remarkable sources from Washington. Many of her sources she has cited in the past three weeks have been FBI sources. She's not saying that now, she's just saying sources have said to her that the DNA from Nancy's home was only a partial sample and was not viable for codis. That reporting has been matched on multiple other outlets as well now, which is very, very frustrating. It's not the end of the story though. If you go back in a few of my episodes, I interviewed CC Moore from Paragon and she has explained, you know, exquisitely what you can do with a partial sample. And there's a lot. So just for reference sake, this partial sample, if this is the end of the road in terms of discovering how viable the sample is with the with the DNA Labs International in Deerfield beach, okay, CODIS is one step. It just means you can't load it up and find an offender who already exists in the CODIS national database. You probably already know. But for those of you who are sort of just coming on board, CODIS is something that law enforcement uses when they arrest a bad guy. In many states, just arresting the person who's not a bad guy yet just an arrestee, they can swab and put that DNA in the national database. Other states say it's not right. They're just arrested, they're not convicted. You shouldn't be taking their privacy from them before they're convicted. And so some states don't upload arrestees DNA, but once you are convicted, boom, in it goes to the national database. So. So CODIS is a really good source. It's millions, millions of sources of. Of bad guys and some arrestees and also some unknown people who left their DNA behind at a crime scene. But we just haven't been able to figure out who they are. Those samples are also uploaded. So basically, this sample from inside Nancy's house, it can't be uploaded to codis because they only take perfect full samples. It doesn't mean the work is over, because partial samples. Well, again, you should go and listen to my episode with Cece Moore, because it's really, really good. She's really good. You take the partial samples, and now you can start doing investigative genetic genealogy. Igg. That's where you take partial samples that might match some other people that might match some of your relatives. Maybe your mom, dad, siblings, children, maybe aunts, uncles, cousins, first cousins, second cousins, third cousins. That's the kind of thing you can start doing. And then once you get a big group of those people who you're related to, then you start doing investigations like, okay, where do you live? Are you male? Female? You're female, out you go. You're not part of this. The males. Let's take all the males. Where do you live? Where are your alibis? And then once you get a smaller group that could be. Could be the person behind this DNA, then you start tracking them, right? Like in the case of the Long island serial killing suspect Rex Heuerman. They followed him in New York City until he threw out a pizza box, and he's been chomping on the pizza. So his DNA was all over it. Boom. They got their DNA from Rex Herman that way. That's usually how the gumshoe works with the investigative genealogy. And that very well could be happening now, right, with the partial sample that they got. But don't get your hopes up here. The reason I say that is because, okay, they found unknown male DNA in the home. We don't know what kind. We don't know if it was blood, semen, saliva. Those are great, right? Because why is unknown male blood semen or saliva in the home? We don't know if it was just touch DNA on the kitchen counter where a FedEx package could have, you know, transferred DNA from a driver and a delivery person and all the rest, or just any touch DNA, a handshake on a family friend who came in and put their hands on the counter. We just don't know the strength of the source of the DNA from inside the home. So TBA on that. And actually, CBS has one report out today that calls the DNA source from inside the home the male DNA low level. That might just be partial, meaning not great. Doesn't mean it isn't possible to work with it. Okay, so also just a comment that somebody made, and I think it's really interesting. Why not release every image, all the images that you may have been able to retrieve from the nest cams? Might that help in people who look at this person and recognize something more? Might it generate more coverage, More eyeballs will look at it. Maybe someone who never saw it before sees it for the first time because there's a fresh round of coverage on the case. I think it's a great idea. The only problem is we just don't know. We don't know if they showed us everything they got. We do know the sheriff said there were more cameras. I had reported that three weeks ago that there were multiple nest cameras. Now the sheriff, as of last week, is admitting, yes, there were more cameras, but that sadly, they haven't been able to retrieve images. Working with Google, I don't know if that's yet or it's over. Don't know. Something else happened today. You might have seen some activity outside of Mrs. Copy Guthrie's home. The sheriff's deputies arrived and put the flashing lights on. When they were in her driveway. They got out. They walked around the back of the house. A lot of reporters were wondering, why are you doing that? What's happening? Why are you going around the back of the house? Didn't get an answer to that. But we did see no trespassing signs going up around Nancy Guthrie's home. And I can only imagine it's possible that some people were trespassing. There have been a lot of searchers who've been out there. The sheriff said, please get permission to go on private property. And maybe people were seen in or around Nancy Guthrie's property that didn't have permission, and maybe that's why the no trespassing signs went up. But that happened today. Also, the FBI, according to Arizona family. And again, I always explain, Arizona family is a brand name that incorporates two television stations in the in Arizona Phoenix area. So Arizona families. Brianna Whitney reported that the FBI says it's moving its command post for the Guthrie case to its FBI headquarters in Phoenix. Okay, don't freak out. It doesn't mean that they're pulling up stakes. It means, according to them, that it's a bigger facility for their operations. They also say that they're going to continue to have investigative teams still operating in Tucson. But the decision, and this is their wording, the decision was to keep high efficiency. But there you go. There's a little bit of movement in terms of where the headquarters for what's happening on the Guthrie case is happening from the standpoint of the FBI. So listen, there's a lot to what happened today, just especially this. The wording that Savannah used in her Instagram, you know, that our mom was taken in the dark of night from her bed as well. This million dollar reward that the Guthrie family has put up and the reporting. Fox News and others have now reported that the Guthrie family had wanted to do that so much earlier, but that they were encouraged not to by the authorities. Early reporting had we had asked that question. Many had asked that question before. And we'd heard back from law enforcement that it's not always good to have the highest reward. You incrementally go up or else you just get deluged with crazies. That was kind of the, you know, the layperson's terminology, but it sounds like Fox's reporting of sources with knowledge of the Guthrie's family thinking is that they had been discouraged from offering that reward as they had wanted to in the first, you know, couple of days or weeks of. Of this terrible, terrible tragedy, but that they were discouraged not to. But then Fox continued to say that they are working with the authorities on this offer they're making today. So I asked somebody who knows a lot more about this stuff than I do, Chip Massey. He's a former FBI special agent, so it's his business. Right. But he's also a former hostage negotiator as well, and he is currently the founder of the convincing company. And I called Chip to ask him about all of this reporting today, and he had some very interesting perspectives. Here's our conversation. Chip, what do you make of this million dollar reward being offered in week four? Do you think it is going to change the game?
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Well, in a sense, yes. And the reason why I say that, Ashley, is because that if there's somebody sitting on the fence right now, if they're unsure about, you know, a, I'm part of the inner circle, let's say, and. Or I am a close associate, but not really on the inside. $200,000 to give up somebody that's violent, that might have other violent people around them that may be not Enough. A million. Now you've got a million reasons to call in now you have money that can actually protect you. You have means of getting out, of establishing a new life. So life changing money, to be sure for somebody in this category. So hesitancy. Anyone that's on the fence now, anybody that's thinking about it, you've got that ability. Plus now you're also thinking about it from a different standpoint because America is so focused on this, right, Ashley? So now it's. I'm not just turning somebody in, but I'm bringing a mother back. And so if we're able to move that messaging around for them to, to reorient their thinking, then it can be a complete game changer.
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A
So, you know, it makes you wonder if that person who may be. Listen, someone out there knows, right? Is that person fearful? Because saying anything means you're in a conspiracy, you'll be charged too. You can't do this and get the money without ending up in prison. But Savannah said you can be anonymous. How does that even work?
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B
That's the thing, right, is that there are. There are ways that they can construct this. The family's working closely with law enforcement. So the idea here is that, is that the counsel that they're given is of course, the best in the land. So if the family is saying Savannah's saint, there are now options on the table for you. You know, you're perhaps not directly related. You're not the captor. You're somebody that is a conduit for us to get information about where our mother is. So in that sense, I can see that the law enforcement would work out different strategies, different ways of allowing this person to provide this information in a way that is anonymous. And because the circumstances here are a little bit different. And what I want to stress in that part is that they need somebody to come forward. Like you said, Ashley, there's somebody out there that knows who this person is. There is no doubt in my mind. We now have two photos and one video. Now we. I know hopefully we'll talk about that other, that newest one that's come to light. But that one, that first video that we had, that chilling photo of that person in the ski mask, you know, moving around on that stoop area, the way they moved their gait, you know, you saw how they lumbered up to the, to the camera in that first one and they tried to seemingly disguise their gate. You know, it was awkward, looked really unprofessional. And then you have them rummaging around in the front portion of the garden area and they pulling out weeds and foliage and they're putting up to, you know, again, these are marks of not preparation. These are somebody that is not practice in this. Because if they were, we're talking about black paint, duct tape, cameras out, oh,
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they'd be ready to go. But. But Chip, why on earth wouldn't law enforcement tell us the date of the other image? Or is it that they just didn't get that data?
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B
Yeah, that could very well be right, Ashley. It's because what they're trying, what they're doing is they're peeling back, you know, they're taking that. That camera footage from the back end of that cache and now they are peeling it back. And, you know, we all know that when you throw away a hard drive on a computer and you know, you've done your best to erase everything, it's still there, right? There's still an ability to get it, unless you've done some very physical precautions not to allow that to happen. But there are means of getting that back. It's. It's painstaking work. It takes very talented people to do that, but that's what they're doing. And so it could very well be that they just don't have that data associated with that picture.
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A
Have you. And I'm going to get back to the images in a minute. But have you seen it work where, you know, several weeks into a missing person's case, the reward is increased either significantly or even as high as a million. And it's actually brought someone out of the woodwork that's helped to solve the case.
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B
Absolutely. This is, this is one of those things. This is why, you know, there's no honor among thieves. And there is, you know, with this kind, I mean, 200, 200k in the beginning was life changing money for a lot of people. Now you're talking about a million. That's a lottery ticket. And we're not talking about the captor here. We're talking about somebody who knows that person is right. Somebody who knows somebody. And that's all they need. That's all they need to get that lead line fresh to start a whole new line of investigation.
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A
A lot of people in your line of work have said this before. Someone's a jilted girlfriend, and I wonder if they. As the days, weeks go on and this person's behavior has probably changed, right? Whoever took Mrs. Guthrie is just the pattern of his behavior has changed. That day it changed. The next day it changed. He's dropped out of work. He's dropped out of life a little bit to deal with this, and somebody might be scorned by him in the days to come who may then come forward, who may then be incentivized because their relationship has changed. Want to feel more confident with your finances this year? If you have 60 seconds, I can
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Hi there.
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A
We're looking to get to the campground.
- [31:07]
B
Well, you're gonna take a left at the old oak tree end of this here road. No, I'm just kidding. Let me get my phone out.
- [31:13]
A
How are you getting a signal out here?
- [31:14]
B
T Mobile and US Cellular decided to merge. So the network out here is huge. We're getting the same great sign signal as the city and saving a boatload with all the benefits. Oh, and a five year price guarantee. Okay, here's those directions.
- [31:26]
A
Actually, can you point us in the direction of a T Mobile store?
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America's best network just got bigger. Switch to T Mobile today and get built in benefits the other guys leave out plus our five year price guarantee. And now T Mobile is available in U.S. cellular stories. Best Mobile network based on analysis by Oogle of speed test intelligence data 2H2025 bigger network the combination of T Mobile's and US Cellular's network footprints will enhance the T Mobile network's coverage price guarantee on talk text and data exclusions like taxes and fees apply. See t mobile.com for details. Finding great candidates to hire can be like, well, trying to find a needle in a haystack.
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- [34:00]
B
Yes. Actually, think about it from that standpoint. Think about it as you know, when you're getting ready to go on vacation, for example, and you're trying to put everything together and you're thinking about all the things that you've got to get in place, you've got to contact co workers, you've got to make sure that whatever is delivered to your home is being taken care of. There are so many things, the pressure rises, and that's for a vacation. Now compound that by about a billion and you've got what? The pressure cooker that this person is under. Because not only have they now have the eyes of this nation and a lot of others looking at this, I mean, I've had interviews with so many different countries now the world is looking for this person. So what happens when we're under that kind of shit, strain, that kind of pressure? Well, we know the amygdala hijack, right? You've heard that before, Ashley, is that you've been in war zones. When, when this kind of thing hits, this kind of stress happens. The. That that analytical brain goes offline. Now you're just dealing with a primitive brain now. It's survival. Now your peripheral vision, you know, your, your brain, nothing is working like it should. Now that's great if you're under attack or you need to run away from somebody, but it is horrible if you need to think, if you need to reason, to think through things. And that's something this guy isn't doing now with the emotions again, off the spectrum. So like you said, somebody who you saw, you know, was acting one way, the next, they have this irrational kind of emotional outburst. They're, they're arguing a lot. They, you know, they're like you said, missing work. They're not in the same places they used to be. And if they are, they're a different person. And that kind of thing will be telegraphed. It's kind of like that bleed through, you know, you're going to see it, other people are going to know it. There's something we call forensic listening, and we say that it is the art and science of analyzing a conversation after it's happened because words leave clues. It's what we teach. But in this case, there's somebody close to this person. There's somebody that had a conversation with that person recently, and they're like, you know, that just didn't make sense. You know, there's something about it that's kind of what deception is, right? It's not that it sounds wrong, but it's not altogether right either. And it's that dissonance that happens in our brains, and for a lot of us, it's subconscious. But if we can pull it forward, we can read people with a lot more robustness. The people that are in this person's life, I guarantee you are doing that. They're seeing Those images, they're looking at the way he's moving. They're seeing that gait, they're seeing his mannerisms. They're like, I know that guy can't be, you know, that question. They're not trusting their instincts. They're not trusting what they've seen with their own eyes and what they know to be true. We want that person to call.
- [37:14]
A
Well, to that end, what about this notion that Fox reported on, which is that, you know, the sources of theirs, with knowledge of the Guthrie family thinking that's how they put it, said that, you know, Savannah and her family wanted to put this reward out really early and were dissuaded from doing so. Good idea, bad idea, tragic in retrospect. Who had hindsight like that? 2020. What are your thoughts?
- [37:39]
B
Well, I can definitely see actually where they come out of the gate with this life changing money could be problematic, right? It. It could be like, well, if they're offering a million now, what will it be a week from now? You know, what if I just hold my cards close and I wait that it could go up? Right. You know, there are a number of reasons why I'm sure that they could have been advised to stay away from doing that. But, you know, this is where we are right now.
- [38:11]
A
But is it the right advisement?
- [38:13]
B
I think so. I do. I think that there is a sense of, you know, they wanted good, clean leads coming in. They wanted that person that recognize that person on that stoop, like, that's it. I'm going to, you know, I'm going to. I know who that guy is. I'm going to make that call because it's the right thing to do, right? The. The people that miss that person at work and wondered, you know, a lot of different things there. Those are the kind of leads we want. We don't want the opportunities like we've already seen in the bitcoins, right, that we had some false starts there.
- [38:47]
A
So, I mean, we don't know that to be true, but it sure seemed like it, you know.
- [38:51]
B
Yeah, that's the thing. And so when you introduce like that amount of money into the. Into the equation, you are going to have people who are desperate enough to risk being, you know, prosecuted for giving false information.
- [39:08]
A
So what will this do? Like, at last count, and arguably it's been, I think, over a week, the tips, I think combined FBI and local were somewhere around 40,000. What will this incentive of a million dollars as a reward due to the number of tips, you know, all we
- [39:29]
B
need is the right One. And that's the task. Now, Savannah's video was so gripping. And the reason why it's gripping, Ashley, you know this because it's heartfelt, because it's her experience, because she is living a nightmare that no one should have to go through, and she's reaching out to that one person. That's all she needs, that one person to say, all right, I can't bear to see this woman and her family suffer anymore. I might not be completely clean in this, but I'm going to do the right thing, and I'm going to make that call. So it just takes that one person.
- [40:13]
A
It takes that one. But I remember early on, one of the critics of someone suggesting that the Guthrie family should have come out right away and offered lots of money. One of the critics of that theory said there are just hundreds of thousands of coops who come out of the woodwork, and it would actually muddy the waters. Is there validity to that?
- [40:32]
B
Oh, to be sure. You know, if somebody is practiced enough to provide information that sounds credible to the point where, you know, there's been a lot of information about what was seen at, you know, at that house. So if you take somebody who's practiced in deception, who might be skilled in being able to create enough doubt or enough getting it on the nose, close enough. Not that it's completely there, but close enough that is enough to divert an investigator or a team to have to follow up on that lead, that that could be false. So I really do believe that this was the right course to take.
- [41:18]
A
Let me ask you something. I know that there are teams associated with bringing in or the first level of vetting of the tips. What kind of skill level is that? When you're getting my curiosity really ignited here by thinking that there's this group of people that are the first line of defense who can tell right away if somebody's deceptive or if they're just so way off base. What skill level is it when you're vetting?
- [41:42]
B
What we're looking at here really is the accurate information. The family is our first source. The family's going to know certain things about their mom that no one else does. The captor who was in that house that night is going to know some things that were present that maybe they saw, they took off, they damaged something there that the investigators put together and said, yep, that's somebody that was in there.
- [42:11]
A
But I'm talking about the thousands and thousands of tips that are just ridiculous, like who's. Who's playing goalie the very first Line of defense to just kind of like cut the wheat from the chafe.
- [42:23]
B
Sure. So, so again, the investigators and I know certainly for the FBI, I mean we're set up for this. We do crisis every day. So when we ever, whenever we engage in some kind of national manhunt, first thing we're going to put up is that 1, 800 number. Right. So we have a priority system. We have a means of sifting through, like you said, figuring out when the caller calls in about getting to that information. Again, we're not looking for somebody who's telling us that, you know, the guy's obviously left handed. Don't care. What we want to know is do you know about this specific situation and this individual? Is there somebody that you're identifying that you say is in this area may be closely associated with it, missed work or better? I know this guy. You know, I'm just, I'm hesitant to say this name, but I, but I really think you guys might want to look into this.
- [43:25]
A
So are the tips coming in, are they recorded? Are they live? Is there a Q and A going on between, you know, experts in the FBI who know when they've got a fraud on the line or when they've got somebody who just thinks they know more than they do?
- [43:39]
B
So, right, they're gonna, they're gonna go through a, a system where they are, they're vetting it based on information. So if you think about the big room and they've got a board that, that's present, electronic, whatever stuff that's written up there, they know every shift knows what is currently active in investigation. They know what kind of tips are being provided, they know the level of priority and what they're supposed to focus in, in on given what is present with the family, what the family's been discussing, what was present at the scene of the crime, all those factors and they're, they're going to be able to prioritize that board and then they're going to, then go through those leads as they come in to make the calls on each one.
- [44:24]
A
So are the calls recorded? The tips, do they come in and they're recorded or I don't someone live?
- [44:29]
B
I, I, they're live. I don't, you know, some, I think, you know, if they, if they aren't able to get to a live person, they'll, they'll record some, some of those, but they're going to want to talk to somebody live, especially if, you know as, as they're going through. The idea is that you want Interaction between the caller and the interviewer so
- [44:49]
A
that the interviewer has a skill set. Right. Like the interviewer is very special. They're not just all hands on deck. Let's grab anybody with a, you know, with a pulse. They're really special, skilled in how to vet who's worthy and who isn't.
- [45:01]
B
Oh, to be sure. So, you know, you've got agents, you've got other, you know, law enforcement personnel. These people have gone through this, right? They, they've been practiced. And if they aren't, they're being, they're on the job and they're watching other people go through it. So yes, there, you know, there is a, there is a definite mechanism in place to make sure that the right people are taking those calls.
- [45:26]
A
Let me ask you, in this particular case, do you think that law enforcement in the Tucson area is actively massaging their informant network?
- [45:42]
B
Oh, yes. Oh, 100%.
- [45:44]
A
And what would they be doing specifically? Knowing full well that any informant who's connected to this, that guy or that girl's gonna know they're in trouble?
- [45:54]
B
Well, you know, it's like with any crime, right? You know, if you want to get to the crime, you got to talk to criminals. That's just how you know this. Actually, you have a world of sources anywhere you go. So it is a fact that they are going to be involved in some type of, you know, nefarious activity. You know, that's where your best information is coming from. We don't expect it to come from Jane and John Doe, who have a regular 9 to 5 job and family. Doesn't work that way. It's. It's messy. Right. And it involves, you know, working through a lot of different things, emotions, the, you know, am I going to get in trouble? Can you protect me? All those things have to be worked through. But that's where the best information comes from.
- [46:38]
A
So let me marry that with the other topic that I'm on right now, and that is a million dollar reward. Our law enforcement in that area, who know they're on their gums, they're in the streets, they know their informants. Are they going in there and saying there's a million dollars in it for you?
- [46:54]
B
I would absolutely.
- [46:57]
A
Is that what they typically employ?
- [46:59]
B
I mean, what you're going to do is you're going to work your sources the way you normally work your sources and you know how to best motivate them. So if, if they are, if they are like, hey, you know, I've got, I've got a, you know, I've got a case on me, right, And I've got to work off my time on this. I, I've got to show the prosecution, the judge that I'm doing the right thing. So that kind of person we love, because they're very motivated that way, right? For their own self interest.
- [47:28]
A
And they don't need the money. They need, they need the, they need
- [47:30]
B
to be cleared, right? They, they want, they want to lesson time. They want something that, that's going to help them work off their time. Money. As you know, in this area, for people, again, that are connected, you know, to this kind of activity, they're going to be motivated by money, to be sure. And that's why the pressure on this captor is huge. You know, it's different now. You started off with 100k. I'm not too sure that, you know, that that wouldn't have been motivation enough. Then it's 200. So now the captain's looking at everybody he knows. He's looking at a million dollars. Now it's, it becomes paranoia.
- [48:12]
A
It's not, I mean, it's a bounty. It's a bounty. And I mean, yeah, 100 and $200,000 is a lot of money, but maybe not enough to protect an informant. Because if an informant's going to do something, a hundred thousand or two hundred isn't really going to buy them a safe life if they turn somebody in. Five years ago, I was paying $65 a month for my subscriptions. Today, those Same subscriptions cost $111, and I don't even use half of them anymore. That's why now I use Rocket Money to manage my subscriptions for me, the app gives you a list of all of your subscriptions and reminds you of upcoming payments so you're not hit with any surprise charges. On top of that, it also sends you alerts when subscription prices go up, so you always know the price you're paying. If you decide you no longer want a subscription, cancel it right from the app. No customer service needed. And the best part is, Rocket Money even reaches out and tries to get you refunded for some of the money you lost. On average, people that cancel their subscriptions with rocket money save $378 a year. And overall, Rocket Money has saved its members $880 million in canceled subscriptions. Stop wasting money on things you don't use. Go to rocketmoney.com cancel to get started, that's rocketmoney.com cancel rocketmoney.com I'm gonna pull over and Ask that man for directions.
- [49:37]
B
Hi there.
- [49:37]
A
We're looking to get to the campground.
- [49:39]
B
Well, you're gonna take a left at the old oak tree end of this here road. No, I'm just kidding. Let me get my phone out.
- [49:45]
A
How are you getting a signal out here?
- [49:46]
B
T Mobile and US Cellular decided to merge so the network out here is huge. We're getting the same great signal as the city and saving a boatload with all the benefits. Oh, and a five year price guarantee. Okay, here's those directions.
- [49:58]
A
Actually, can you point us in the direction of a T Mobile store?
- [50:01]
B
America's best network just got bigger. Switch to T Mobile today and get built in benefits the other guys leave out. Plus our five year price guarantee. And now T Mobile is available in US Cellular stores. Best mobile network based on analysis by Oogle of Speed test intelligence data at 2H2025 bigger network. The combination of T Mobile's and you US cellular network footprints will enhance the T Mobile network's coverage price guarantee on talk text and data exclusions like taxes and fees apply. See t mobile.com for details. The following ZipRecruiter radio spot you are about to hear is going to be
- [50:36]
A
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- [51:14]
B
Fantastic.
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A
So whether you need to hire four, 40 or 400 people, get ready to meet first rate talent. Just go to ZipRecruiter.com Zip to try ZipRecruiter for free. Don't forget that's ZipRecruiter.com Zip finally, that's ZipRecruiter.Com Zip warning.
- [51:33]
B
The following ZipRecruiter radio spot you are about to hear is going to be
- [51:37]
A
filled with F words when you're hiring. We at ZipRecruiter know you can feel frustrated, forlorn, even, like your efforts are futile. And you can spend a fortune trying to find fabulous people only to get flooded with candidates who are just fine. Fortunately, ZipRecruiter figured out how to fix all that. And right now you can try ZipRecruiter for free at ZipRecruiter.com Zip with ZipRecruiter you can forget your frustrations because we find the right people for your roles fast, which is our absolute favorite F word. In fact, four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day.
- [52:15]
B
Fantastic.
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A
So whether you need to hire four, 40 or 400 people, get ready to meet first rate talent. Just go to ZipRecruiter.com Zip to try ZipRecruiter for free. Don't forget that. ZipRecruiter.com Zip finally, that's ZipRecruiter.com Zip right.
- [52:33]
B
And now all those, all those mitigating factors that might have been, I don't know, I don't think I, you know, can't exactly go to an island on this. Now they've got options.
- [52:45]
A
You take the whole family. Yeah. Talk to me a little bit about this notion that the New York Times reported on these hearing aids, right. That Nancy Guthrie, according to her friends, had started using very powerful hearing aids. Well, if you know the way hearing aids work, you take them out at night, that for me changes things. Given the fact that you don't hear disturbances in your home, you might not even hear somebody say smashing the spotlights outside your home. If you have powerful hearing aids that you need to hear, talk to me about what that would change for you. You know, in the days that you put your investigator, your FBI hat on and how that would change how you look at this crime.
- [53:31]
B
So any kind of entry of somebody, think about it, ski mask, gloves on, you don't know this individual. And now they're in your home. We don't know how he got in. They're saying, you know, the sheriff's not giving information, whether it was forced entry, door was open, had access some other way, don't know. But what we do hear, and is that Savannah saying, they took my mother from her bed. And that would go toward what you're saying, you know, hearing aids out, may not be aware of the noises, may not already have been alerted. But in any case, Ashley, if you think about it, once they are alert, what are they looking at? What is Nancy looking at? Face to ski mask. Now, can you imagine the horror that is flowing? Right. We can't. And that's a great point, Ashley, is that so many people have this idea of how they would respond. You Know, if they were in this, you know, you got. You got guys, you know, you know, and they're saying, well, I would have taken this guy out from first, you know, you know, right. Or, you know, or, you know, anybody saying, oh, I just fight.
- [54:47]
A
Well, she's 84, she lives alone, and she's a woman. And there's a masked, you know, intruder,
- [54:53]
B
potentially upper age range, right? And you're stuck, and you're looking at somebody from a horror movie in your face, in your home, grabbing you. Right. We can assume there was a struggle. We can assume that this captor wasn't as practiced as he should have been because we have Nancy's blood on that front porch. That's a problem.
- [55:19]
A
I. I go back to the possibility, though, Chip, and I'm sure that your mind probably thinks this way as well. It doesn't take anything to put an 84 year old woman under control if you have a gun or a weapon. It just takes words. And so Mrs. Guthrie may very easily have bumped her arm, because at 84, your skin is thin. She's on blood thinners. The drops of blood that I've learned from my source are inside the house as well as outside the house could so easily have come from just a tripping or a bump. And I mean, I don't know that it would have required a lot of physical force to move Mrs. Guthrie out of wherever he moved her from.
- [56:03]
B
From you. Not physical force, perhaps. Maybe she reacted in a way that was like, I am going to fight. I am going to do something. Maybe she was hitting against him, like you say. Maybe there's some flailing involved. And in. Yes, she hit something that she didn't intend to, so she caught a corner on something. My problem with this is that this guy wasn't ready for that. He didn't immediately subdue her. He didn't immediately bind her in a way that would. Wouldn't allow for this. That tells me we're dealing with somebody who isn't practicing this. And for me, that's a big danger sign. So what I want to have happened here would be that we would have seen the skill. We would have seen some, but we wouldn't see evidence of a struggle. We wouldn't see other blood samples because he had it under control. He was planning this. He was thorough, and he knew his business.
- [57:05]
A
Let's talk a little bit about the literal versus the figurative, because early in this case, the sheriff actually used the words, nancy was taken from her bed. And when that made big headlines, he backtracked Completely. And said, well, I was being figurative. I didn't think you were going to take me literally. And so we all took him seriously. And now Savannah's using those terms. And I've said it before, like, she's a journalist, so she knows the power of words. And I. I almost feel like she might not have chosen to use a figurative expression that was so informative and so fact filled. But if that is the case and if she is being literal, this feels like it changes a lot of the nature of what this crime is and who this criminal is.
- [57:56]
B
I'm curious, actually. Why do you. Why do you say that? Why do you think it's changed?
- [58:00]
A
Well, it feels as though, you know, if. If Mrs. Guthrie literally was taken from her bed, it feels like that was the reason he was there. It wasn't for any other reason other than to break in and wake a sleeping, hard of hearing woman and take her from the bed. As opposed to all these other theories that, well, maybe this was somebody who broke in and was, you know, caught in the middle of the act and reacted in a bad way and there was a crisis and it. I mean, there's all sorts of theories. Right, but I mean, if Savannah's literal, that mom was taken from her bed, does that completely change the way investigators analyze and. And try to solve the case?
- [58:39]
B
Yeah, I. I don't think for a minute this guy was in for a cash grab or to get jewelry or whatever there. You know, he came in with a full backpack. Now, that's what it looks like to us, right, from. From looking at that. That video.
- [58:55]
A
And I only say, could it. Is it possible it could have been sat G? You know, South American gangs that. I don't know if it's that g. Let me get my wording right. Yeah. Sachi, Is it possible it could have been, you know, Satchi, the South American criminal gang rings that, you know, might have been bringing a backpack full of bags to thieve the place? That's what they do. They go in the middle of the night. That's their M.O. and they rob places. And, you know, that's the only reason I think that that's a possibility. It's not that anyone.
- [59:25]
B
I hear you. The problem I have with that one is that you don't come out with a body. You don't come out with a person. Right. If you're there to extract the money, that whatever the goods are, that just doesn't work. They don't do that. You know, so they're set up. Hey, we're going to get this, we're going to get these jewels, whatever's in the, in the house. We have fences set up for that. They're not set up for a human being. And that's where things start to change. So I, I do not think for a second that that person went in for a cash grab and said, oh, well, this, this makes sense to me. Why don't I grab her too, doesn't it? That doesn't work in my experience.
- [60:07]
A
What other reason would there be to break into a home in the middle of the night, take a woman? If we are to take Savannah literally from her bed and take her away, what other possible reason could there be if those reasons, alleged ransom demands were frauds?
- [60:26]
B
That's the only thing that I can think of, you know, to go on, Ashley, is that, is that we're working from what, what we've heard from the family. That's all we've got. We've got some evidence from, from the investigators, from, from the sheriff that's out front. But all we really can say is what Savannah's telling us through these videos and how she is wanting to address the captors and the American people. So, you know, we can, you know, and a lot of people do, you know, armchair detectives out there, they're, they're very focused on different theories and so forth. What we need to do and what the investigators are laser focused in on are the facts and where the current leads of the investigation are going to.
- [61:15]
A
The other news that has been breaking today, multiple sources reporting that the DNA sample of the unknown male DNA that was found inside the home that didn't match Nancy's immediate circle that it is, it's just a, it's a bit of a bust in terms of codis. It's, it's a partial profile. It can't be loaded up into codis. But that doesn't mean it's the end of the road. It means that the next step begins. Right. The investigative gene is genealogy, genetic genealogy.
- [61:43]
B
Right there. You know, I see this investigation like all the investigators are. This is a many lane highway and we want every lane to be going a thousand miles an hour. And so with, with the DNA evidence with, with the genetic pushing out the family tree. Fantastic. We want that. Yes. It's, Is it disheartening? Absolutely. Is it going to now take longer? Sounds like it. You know, are we ever going to get something from that? I don't know. But, but the investigation still continues. There are still 18 other lanes that investigators are going down that you know, we have that information about the gun shops. Remember when that came out, and they were. The gun shop owners were saying, yeah, the FBI came in and they had, like, I've heard everything from 24 to 40 names that they wanted to know, was this person in here? Did they buy this gun? This particular model, this particular holster? Right. And so that gives me a lot of confidence that they are developing new leads all the time, that they might be narrowing down those leads, and they might have a cluster of people of interest that they're focused in on now. So, again, I really think many lanes, we want every. Every piece of. Of this machine to be working in
- [63:04]
A
conjunction with each other to that end. Why do you suppose that they haven't released any other imagery? I mean, we have clips that end before the action ends. We have clips that end with him messing with the nest cam and the foliage, but then it stops. Not because the action stops, just the clip stops. Why do you suppose authorities haven't released more of the imagery that they've been able to capture? Or do you think it's possible that is all that they were able to capture?
- [63:32]
B
It could very well be that that is all that they were able to get, or it's all that's pertinent in terms of showing us information that we could say, okay, I see that person in full view, or I recognize more of it as a result of that. So I am sure that whatever they're showing us right now, they're not holding something back. That could be a possible identifier.
- [63:56]
A
That's what I want to know. Because, honest to God, it's been two weeks since that imagery was released, and it's kind of playing on a loop now. It becomes a bit of white noise, and the story is dropping. It's State of the Union as I speak, and, you know, no one's covering Nancy Guthrie. But if the true mission is to get more eyeballs and to work all those lanes at a thousand and, you know, miles an hour, wow. Would that ever go a long way to get more eyeballs, wondering if that's my friend's gait, if that's my friend's arm movements, if that's the way he bends, if that's the way he turns. I just feel like that would be something. Is it possible they're just waiting when things go cold in the media, they'll drop that to spark it back up?
- [64:36]
B
I can't think so, Ashley. I'd have to say I've never experienced where they were actually holding back on Possible information to get a second rise. Because you believe and you. You need. You want to hope that that first batch, you're throwing everything at it. You want that person to come forward as soon as possible. Because again, we're talking about a medically fragile older individual. So we know that there's so many factors working against her health. We want to, you know, Absolutely. Authorities want to, you know, put that on a fast track chip.
- [65:13]
A
There were upwards of 400 people working this case as of about last week. I haven't heard a count since. But you and I both know you can't keep 400 people on a case forever. What is the metric they use to draw down? When do they start to move people off? Because today, Arizona family was reporting that the FBI has already moved its command post back to the headquarters in Phoenix, assuring us all there's still a team working in Tucson. But is that one of those signals?
- [65:44]
B
I think what it's going to be, Ashley, is that if leads start to dwindle, right, they're going to follow the logical path of an investigation. That's what they're trained to do. That's what will bring the ultimate conclusion and resolution to this. I'm not concerned at all that if they're moving their camp out, that's not a problem because the investigation evolves and they're working with what the facts are on the ground at any point in time. So the investigators, like you said, are working their sources. I have great confidence also reporters like yourself out there working their sources, the more time that's spent in that area, in and of itself, and expanding that zone of investigation increases the probability that. That they're going to catch something, they're going to trip on something, something is going to happen. So. So I'm not at all concerned those leads are still coming in. You know, we're still getting good information and, you know, we're getting updates. So that doesn't bother me right now.
- [66:54]
A
Do you think the FBI behavioral unit is still working with the Guthrie family in terms of the messaging that. The long message that Savannah put out today, especially the notion that she said it's, you know, I. And these are my words. But she effectively acknowledged that her mother may no longer be with us.
- [67:11]
B
I think Savannah is. Is working from her heart, and I am sure she's getting the best counsel to be sure. I mean, I would want the best people around me, and she's got the best people around her now. She is taken to social media, and I think it's very powerful that she's speaking from her heart, from the heart of her family. And that has to create some type of inroads into somebody around this captor, if not the captor himself. That's going to bring the ultimate change. That is going to be the crack that we so desperately need. So, yes, she is, to be sure, getting great counsel.
- [67:56]
A
Chip, what is it that the media is not asking? What is it that, you know, with your expertise, you're wondering, why is no one, you know, following this trail?
- [68:07]
B
You know, I really don't think that's happening. You know, just like you, I'm. I'm trying to think through, well, well, what would I do if I was heading this up and I was involved in investigation again and for, you know, again, not being privy to what is actually happening on the inside. I, I know what typically is going on, and I am, I can't think of anything right now that they wouldn't already be doing to, to advance this investigation.
- [68:37]
A
Chip Massey, it's really good to talk to you. Thank you so much for your expertise and all your service as well. And thanks for doing the podcast with me.
- [68:44]
B
A pleasure, Ashley. Thank you.
- [68:45]
A
All right, so there you have it. Really great introspection from, from Chip Massey and Day 24, and still no sign of Nancy Guthrie and still no sign that they have leads that are really viable. I mean, remember in the Brian Coburger case, it was within days we were told, look out for the White Elantra. We don't have that. We don't have that. In the Nancy Gospry case, we don't have a car. We do have a suspect, and maybe that's more valuable. Although at this point on day 24, it's hard to imagine. What do they know that's pushing this case forward? One thing they have said, the case isn't going cold. Thanks everyone for listening. Thanks everyone for watching. Don't forget to subscribe. I so appreciate you being here. And remember, the truth isn't just serious, it's drop dead serious. We're lost. I'm gonna pull over and ask that man for directions.
- [69:41]
B
Hi there.
- [69:41]
A
We're looking to get to the campground.
- [69:43]
B
Well, you're gonna take a left at the old oak tree end of this here road. No, I'm just kidding. Let me get my phone out.
- [69:49]
A
How are you getting a signal out here?
- [69:50]
B
T Mobile and US Cellular decided to merge. So the network got here. Here is huge. We're getting the same great signal as the city and saving a boatload with all the benefits. Oh, and a five year price guarantee. Okay, here's those directions.
- [70:02]
A
Actually, can you point us in the direction of a T Mobile store?
- [70:05]
B
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A
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- [71:43]
B
Well, you're going to take a left at the old oak tree end of this here road. No, I'm just kidding. Let me get my phone out.
- [71:49]
A
How are you getting a signal out here?
- [71:50]
B
T Mobile and US Cellular decided to merge. So the network out here is huge. We're getting the same great signal as the city and saving a boatload with all the benefits. Oh, and a five year price guarantee. Okay, here's those directions.
- [72:02]
A
Actually, can you point us in the direction of a T Mobile store?
- [72:05]
B
America's best network just got bigger. Switch to T Mobile today and get built in benefits the other guys leave out. Plus our five year price guarantee. And now T Mobile is available in US Cellular stores. Best Mobile Network Based on analysis by Oogle of Speed test intelligence data at 2H 2025. Bigger network the combination of T Mobile's and US cellular network footprints will enhance the T Mobile network's coverage, price guarantee on talk text and data exclusions like taxes and fees apply. See t mobile.com for details.