Texts, Lies, and Incorrect Evidence: Ex-Trooper Proctor’s Boss Gets Grilled

Summary

Drop Dead Serious With Ashleigh Banfield

Episode: Texts, Lies, and Incorrect Evidence: Ex-Trooper Proctor’s Boss Gets Grilled

Release Date: May 9, 2025

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Presented by Ashleigh Banfield

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Introduction

In the twelfth day of the second-degree murder trial of Karen Reed, Ashleigh Banfield delves deep into the courtroom drama surrounding the prosecution of Massachusetts State Police Sergeant Yuri Buchenic. This episode, titled "Texts, Lies, and Incorrect Evidence: Ex-Trooper Proctor’s Boss Gets Grilled," unpacks the intense interrogation of Sergeant Buchenic, who oversaw the controversial investigation into the death of John O'Keefe.

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Background of the Trial and Key Figures

The trial centers on the mysterious death of John O'Keefe, whose body was discovered on January 29, 2022, at 34 Fairview Road. Trooper Michael Proctor, initially in charge of the case, was later fired due to inappropriate group text messages that tainted the investigation. Sergeant Yuri Buchenic stepped in as Proctor’s supervisor and lead investigator, overseeing the procedures and evidence handling in the case.

Notable Quote:

"I know a thing or two about true crime... I’ve been reporting on it for 36 years." – Ashleigh Banfield [00:04]

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Examination of Initial Evidence

Special Prosecutor Hank Brennan called Sergeant Buchenic to testify about the initial response to John O'Keefe's death. On the day John was found, both Buchenic and Proctor responded to the scene, gathering early evidence that included a broken cocktail glass, a brown paper bag with six Solo cups containing blood, and John’s phone. A significant point of contention is the Canton Police Department’s recusal from the investigation due to a "possible loose family connection."

Notable Quote:

"The Canton police recused themselves from this investigation because of a possible loose family connection to the case." – Sergeant Yuri Buchenic [02:30]

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Issues with Surveillance Footage

A critical issue arose with the surveillance video from the Canton PD Sally Port, which was supposed to show Karen Reed's SUV. Banfield highlights a glaring problem: the video was mirrored, leading to a misinterpretation of the taillight damage. The passenger side taillight, which was under scrutiny, appeared intact due to the inversion, raising questions about the integrity of the evidence presented.

Notable Quote:

"Somehow the video that made it to court as an exhibit in evidence was flipped. It was flipped to the mirror image." – Ashleigh Banfield [03:26]

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Presentation of the Sneaker Evidence

During testimony, Buchenic presented a sneaker found at the scene, which became a point of confusion. Initially identified incorrectly, the sneaker's mishandling suggested lapses in the investigative process. The defense used this discrepancy to question the overall competence and reliability of the investigation.

Notable Quote:

"What the defense did is they caught him on his own mistakes, his investigative process that they follow. So if I'm the defense, it's like, well, your investigative process sucks." – Ashleigh Banfield [06:32]

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Handling of John O'Keefe's Clothes and Evidence

Further scrutiny was placed on the handling of John O'Keefe's clothes collected from the hospital. The delay in filing reports and discrepancies in how evidence was photographed and logged raised serious doubts about the prosecution’s evidence chain. Buchenic maintained that all evidence was properly labeled and handled, but the defense effectively highlighted the inconsistencies.

Notable Quote:

"Those later discoveries, especially the tail light fragments, were actually not photographed where they were found. And that left a major, major hole in his story." – Ashleigh Banfield [07:30]

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The Controversial Text Messages

One of the most explosive moments in the trial was the revelation of Trooper Michael Proctor's inappropriate group text messages. These messages, filled with derogatory language and comments about Karen Reed, not only led to Proctor’s dismissal but also cast a shadow over the investigation's integrity.

Notable Quotes:

"I text my wife, waiting to lock this whack job up. Of course, it's undetermined. She was a whack job." – Trooper Michael Proctor [08:57]

"No, she's a babe. We had fall river accent though. Though, no ass." – Trooper Michael Proctor [09:23]

Banfield criticizes Buchenic for his minimal acknowledgment of these texts, suggesting that the full extent of Proctor’s misconduct may surface later in the trial.

Notable Quote:

"These came from me. Funny, I'm going through his retarded client's phone. No nude so far. I hate that man. I truly hate him." – Trooper Michael Proctor [09:49]

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Cross-Examination by Defense Attorney Alan Jackson

Defense Attorney Alan Jackson launched a rigorous cross-examination aimed at dismantling Buchenic’s credibility and the investigation’s integrity. Jackson questioned the impact of Proctor’s involvement on the case, presenting a binder of search warrants and affidavits linked to Proctor. Buchenic struggled to authenticate these documents, further weakening the prosecution’s stance.

Notable Quote:

"The investigation was conducted with honor and integrity and all the evidence pointed in one direction and one direction only." – Sergeant Yuri Buchenic [16:38]

Jackson adeptly highlighted potential biases and procedural lapses, questioning whether the tight-knit relationship within the police department compromised the investigation.

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Issues with Evidence Handling and Police Department Conflict of Interest

A major revelation was the conflict of interest within the Canton Police Department. Kevin Albert, brother of Brian Albert (the homeowner where John O'Keefe was found), is also a police officer. This familial tie undermined the impartiality of the investigation, casting doubt on the actions taken by the Canton PD, including the questionable collection of taillight evidence.

Notable Quote:

"Kevin Albert is also a Canton police officer. So loose connection. Yeah, I would say that's tighter than a bull's ass at fly time." – Ashleigh Banfield [22:24]

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Conclusion and Upcoming Proceedings

As the day concluded, Banfield shed light on the prosecution’s strategy, noting the absence of key witnesses like Trooper Proctor and others connected to the case. She hinted at deeper layers of misconduct and evidence tampering that may emerge as the trial progresses. With the courtroom drama far from over, Sergeant Buchenic is set to return for further intense scrutiny.

Notable Quote:

"The judge in the case understandably has said no audio, no video can be transmitted of their testimony. If you're in the courtroom, you can see them, but the media and you, we cannot." – Ashleigh Banfield [23:43]

Banfield encourages listeners to stay engaged and share their perspectives, emphasizing the ongoing quest for truth in this convoluted case.

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Stay tuned for Day 13 as Ashleigh Banfield continues to unravel the complexities and uncover the truth behind Karen Reed’s trial.

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Remember, the truth isn't just serious, it's drop dead serious.

Transcript

[Unknown Speaker]

Foreign.

[Ashley Banfield]

Hi, everybody. I'm Ashley Banfield and this is Drop Dead Serious. Today was day 12 in the second degree murder trial of Karen Reed. And the prosecution called Massachusetts State Police Sergeant Yuri Buchenic to the stand. And if that name rings a bell, it should, because this is the man who oversaw the investigation into John o' Keefe's death. Death. And supervised the now fired trooper named Michael Proctor. Yes, that Michael Proctor. And today, Yuri Buchanak was grilled on everything, like the moment this case was called in and the evidence and the texts and the chain of custody and whether or not the investigation he led can still be trusted. It was a very long day in court, so let's get right to the key moments. First up, Special prosecutor Hank Brennan called Sergeant Yuri Buchanak up to the stand. Now, remember the morning of January 29, 2022, when John O' Keefe's body was discovered. Trooper Michael Proctor was the one on call and Sergeant Buchanak was his supervisor. Both men responded to the call and they headed straight to the Canton Police Department, where they met up with other local officers. There they were shown early pieces of evidence. A broken cocktail glass, a brown paper bag with six Solo cups, reportedly with blood that was found in the snow at 34 Fairview Road, and John O' Keeffe's phone. But here's a key detail. The Canton police recused themselves from this investigation. Sergeant Buchanak said that's because of a possible loose family connection to the case. And what was that connection? I'll get to that in a hot minute because it's still a major point of contention, so be patient. Next, Sergeant Buchanak told the jury that he and Trooper Proctor went to Karen Reed's parents home in Dighton, Massachusetts, and parked in the driveway was Karen's black Lexus suv. And right away, Sergeant Buchenik says he noticed that a large piece of red taillight cover was missing from Karen's car. And so, after speaking with Karen Reed, they seized both her SUV and her cell phone. Even though the Canton police were no longer involved in the active investigation, the SUV was brought to the Canton PD Sally Port, not because they were leading the case, but because it was a heated and convenient location to store the vehicle indoors. Sergeant Buchanan emphasized that he never physically touched the SUV and said he never saw Trooper Michael Proctor touch it either. Now, here's where I got to stop down for a quick video tutorial. If you watched the first trial, you probably saw one of the famous images displayed on the big monitor in the front of the court, a video image inside the Sally port at the Canton pd. And the video was trained surveillance video, you know, on Karen Reed's suv. And the angle that you're looking at gives you the broadside view of the passenger side of Karen's suv, not the driver's side. That would be the other side.

[Unknown Speaker]

Right?

[Ashley Banfield]

But you're looking right at the passenger side of Karen's suv and there's a dude who's actually like crouched sort of behind that driver side rear tail light. But, but who cares? Because the driver side tail light isn't the tail light in question, right? It's the passenger side tail light rear tail light. That's, that's in question. And there was nobody crouched there or mucking about there. That was in full view of this video. Nobody there. Here's the problem. And I still cannot believe this happened. And I don't know how it happened, but someone got some explaining to do. Somehow the video that made it to court as an exhibit in evidence was flipped. It was flipped to the mirror image. So now when you see the real footage. Oh, hi. The side of the car that you're actually looking at, the real side of the car is the driver's side of the car. You're looking at the broad side of Karen's car, the driver's side, right? And the dude who's like crouched behind is actually crouched behind the passenger side tail light. Now that's a problem, right, because the passenger side tail light in the back of the car, that's the taillight in question. And there's a big old guy who, who happens to be Trooper Proctor standing right there. If I'm the defense, you easily could have grabbed pieces of taillight at that very moment that you were standing right at it. And by the way, Canton pd Why did you give inverted video to the court, to the prosecutors? Were you trying to cover something up? That's what I would say if I were the defense attorney. And mark my word, that's probably what Alan Jackson is going to make. Hey, about when the defense case begins. Okay, so let's keep going. Let's go back into court. Later, Sergeant Buchanak showed the jury a sneaker.

[Unknown Speaker]

And you mentioned when you're at the hospital there was a sneaker one.

[Sergeant Yuri Buchanak]

Yes.

[Unknown Speaker]

Do you have that sneaker with you?

[Sergeant Yuri Buchanak]

I do.

[Unknown Speaker]

Could you produce it, please?

[Sergeant Yuri Buchanak]

Yes, sir.

[Unknown Speaker]

Trooper, is that the sneaker that was at the hospital when you visited Mr. O' Keefe?

[Ashley Banfield]

No.

[Sergeant Yuri Buchanak]

So this is the sneaker from 34 Ferry.

[Unknown Speaker]

Could I have that marked. What is that, a left or a right sneaker, sir?

[Sergeant Yuri Buchanak]

This is the left sneaker. Excuse me? This is the right sneaker from.

[Ashley Banfield]

From.

[Sergeant Yuri Buchanak]

34 Fairy Road Camp.

[Ashley Banfield]

Yes.

[Unknown Speaker]

You are sure? If you could put the speaker back in B and let me see Bren and bring the bag.

[Ashley Banfield]

There is a big difference. Right. And let's keep in mind he made this massive mistake while testifying about their investigative process that they follow. So if I'm the defense, it's like, well, your investigative process sucks. You couldn't even get it straight here in court. And speaking of things that were collected at the hospital, prosecutors also presented the clothes that were taken off of John o' Keeffe's body when he was there at the hospital. A stained T shirt and sweatshirt, both of them bagged as evidence. Then the testimony turned to the search that police did in the front yard at 34 Fairview Road. But a search that happened long after John was found there. Like days after Sgt. Buchanak said he returned to 34 Fairview Road with Michael Proctor and two other troopers where they then recovered several more items that they had found. More items than they found the morning that John was discovered. Items like a black baseball cap and a black drinking straw. And more red taillight fragments. You know, red pieces of taillight that somehow everybody missed in the lily white snow on the morning that they processed the scene. Well, before they seized and towed Karen's suv. No, this witness said that each item was photographed before being collected and bagged. Some of those pieces were recovered by the Canton Police Department, even though the Canton PD had already stepped away from the case due to the conflict of interest. And I'm getting to that conflict of interest, trust me, because it's a doozy, that little loose connection. Yeah, I'll get there. Hold on. But here's an even bigger problem. Those later discoveries, especially the tail light fragments, were actually not photographed where they were found. And that left a major, major hole in his story. And then came one of the most explosive moments of the day. Those now infamous group text messages that ultimately got Trooper Michael Proctor fired. You know the messages, right? Slagging Karen's looks and her accent and all dirty talk about her body.

[Trooper Michael Proctor]

I text my wife, waiting to lock this whack job up. Of course, it's undetermined. She was a whack job. If you like women who shit themselves, yep. So these came from me. From all accounts, he didn't do anything wrong. She's a whack job cunt.

[Defense Attorney Alan Jackson]

Objection.

[Unknown Speaker]

So don't Spell it. You have to. So this, these are your words, Trooper Proctor.

[Trooper Michael Proctor]

Yes, your honor.

[Unknown Speaker]

Go ahead and say them.

[Trooper Michael Proctor]

Cunt. Yes, she's a babe. We had fall river accent though. Though, no ass. I also respond with, she's got a leaky balloon knot. Leaks. Poo.

[Sergeant Yuri Buchanak]

And what, if anything, is that in reference.

[Trooper Michael Proctor]

To? Misread some medical conditions. There again, unprofessional comments I should not have made that I'm not proud of. Okay. These came from me. Funny, I'm going through his retarded client's phone. No nude so far. I hate that man. I truly hate him.

[Ashley Banfield]

Sergeant Buchanak admitted that he was part of that group chat. He also had to admit that he was disciplined for his lack of oversight. He told the jury, however. And this is where I'm like, what? But he told the jury that he hadn't read any of the messages in full when they were originally sent and that he only saw pieces of the text message threads on his Apple watch. I get that. I actually have one too. I'm wearing it now. And sometimes texts come in and I say, ah, it's too long for me to read or respond to, but I'll look at it on my phone later. I don't just ignore them completely.

[Unknown Speaker]

Right.

[Ashley Banfield]

He said it wasn't until later, like when the internal affairs got involved and launched an investigation into this whole incident, that Trooper Michael Proctor, you know, was getting in some trouble. That's when he said he read the entire text chain, like the entire text conversation. And I'm again, hold the phone. There has not been a crime like this in your itty bitty Canton, Massachusetts, like forever.

[Unknown Speaker]

Right?

[Ashley Banfield]

It involves a dead police officer, one of your own, right? It involves like group chat about sexy stuff and nudes.

[Unknown Speaker]

Right?

[Ashley Banfield]

Looking for nudes and the word C U n T, and you just didn't read it ever. You, like, notice it on your watch and you just like, well, I'm just not going to bother checking that out later. I don't know, I. I just. I just don't feel that that's reasonable. I think we all read our texts, especially when they're texts like that. Yeah. Here's another weird part. You know, you got this guy on the stand, right? And he's the one who's having to acknowledge the texts by Trooper Proctor. Like it's all falling on him. I bet he's so pissed off, right? Because Trooper Proctor had to do it in the first trial and it was nasty. He had to spell out the word C U n T and Then like the judge is like, no, you got to say it. So now Buchanan's got to acknowledge all this garbage, right? And the prosecutor actually read some of these texts out loud in court. Direct quotes from Trooper Proctor, right, when he was talking about. This is Trooper Proctor talking about Karen's lawyer, David Ganetti. And here are the quotes. I'm going through his client's phone. No nudes so far. I hate that man. I truly hate him. This is Trooper Proctor talking about Karen's lawyer, David Jannetti.

[Unknown Speaker]

Right?

[Ashley Banfield]

But here's what's weird. Conveniently, the prosecution kind of stopped going over the text messages right there. And hello, we were all there for trial. One, we know there was a lot more filthy stuff, like the cunt stuff and the, what you talked about her butthole looking like, right? All the dirty, gross, disgusting stuff that got you fired. Trooper Proctor had to say it all on the stand in the first trial. But on this, on this particular witness, nope, that was it. The prosecutor himself read just these three texts and yeah, yep, that's it. Buchanan had to just acknowledge that they were Proctor's texts. But then that was it. So I'm thinking, yeah, more texts are coming in with the defense case, the real dirty, dirty ones. So next up, the jury was shown ring camera footage from John O' Keefe's home. Sergeant Buchanak testified that it captured Karen Reed's SUV backing out of John O' Keefe's garage at 5:07am Right. This is the exact time that Karen is frantic.

[Unknown Speaker]

Right.

[Ashley Banfield]

Karen Reed is heading out to start looking for John, having not heard from him all night. And according to Buchanak, he says this video shows the right rear tail taillight looked damaged. Well, yeah, I mean, the defense has a very different interpretation of this footage. They, they said in the first trial that. Look at the video, like, look at it closely. You can actually see Karen Reed's SUV backing up and bumping right into the back of John o' Keefe's parked car. And what makes contact as she's reversing that tail light, the back passenger side tail light, it actually bumps John's car. It's, it's enough force that it moves John's car slightly. It's a low speed tap, it's not a crash. And they say that that's the moment captured on camera that can explain Karen's broken tail light. Not a fatal collision with John o' Keefe himself. And that was followed by another video, this time of Reed's SUV being towed from her parents home. In Dighton, Massachusetts. But later on that day. Later on that same day.

[Unknown Speaker]

Right.

[Ashley Banfield]

So presumably after she'd had this bump and maybe broke the taillight, she's at, she's at her parents house. And Sergeant Buchanan points out that part of the taillight looked white and that it was just another visual indicator of damage. But if you're the defense, the damage happened just a few hours before at John's house, not the night before at 34 Fairview Road. Then came surveillance from CF McCarthy's. I just love saying CF McCarthy's.

[Unknown Speaker]

Right.

[Ashley Banfield]

Canton Bar where Karen and John were out with friends the night before he died. And the footage shows them drinking. And Buchanan testified that Karen Reed appeared to leave with a drink in her hand. Then after the lunch break, court resumed with more surveillance video, this time from the Waterfall Bar and Grill where the couple ended up after CF McCarthy's. And next it was the defense's turn to ask questions. I love cross. I love it because it's where the drama starts.

[Unknown Speaker]

Right.

[Ashley Banfield]

And I'm going to take a big old guess that Sergeant Buchanak was none too pleased to be cross examined once again by defense attorney Alan Jackson. Jackson began by challenging Buchanak's credibility and the overall integrity of a whole investigation.

[Defense Attorney Alan Jackson]

To use your word, that ensures the integrity of the investigation, is that right?

[Sergeant Yuri Buchanak]

Yes, that's correct.

[Defense Attorney Alan Jackson]

As you sit here today, do you, you believe that this investigation. Now I'm going to turn to. This investigation was conducted with professionalism, with competence, at the highest level of integrity.

[Sergeant Yuri Buchanak]

This investigation was conducted professionally with integrity. And all the evidence collected, all the statements collected pointed in one direction. There was no bias influence on the evidence on, on the information that was collected or which direction the investigation pointed. Naturally.

[Ashley Banfield]

Then came the real heat. Jackson brought up Michael Proctor.

[Defense Attorney Alan Jackson]

Former trooper Michael Proctor was the person who was the assigned case agent. Let me just ask you this. Do you believe that Michael Proctor, his involvement in this case taints the investigation, tainted the investigation? No, not at all.

[Sergeant Yuri Buchanak]

The investigation was done with honor, integrity and all the evidence pointed in one direction. One direction only.

[Defense Attorney Alan Jackson]

Honor and integrity by Michael Proctor.

[Sergeant Yuri Buchanak]

Was that question. I'm sorry.

[Unknown Speaker]

Sure is.

[Defense Attorney Alan Jackson]

Everything I say is question. Honor and integrity by Michael Proctor.

[Unknown Speaker]

Sergeant sustain to the comment. Go ahead and ask it again.

[Defense Attorney Alan Jackson]

You said honor, Honor and integrity by Michael Proctor.

[Unknown Speaker]

Okay.

I'll allow it.

[Sergeant Yuri Buchanak]

The investigation was conducted with honor and integrity and all the evidence pointed in one direction and one direction only.

[Defense Attorney Alan Jackson]

So Sergeant Buchanak, you don't want to answer my question?

[Ashley Banfield]

But Jackson wasn't done he pulled out a binder full of search warrants and affidavits and police reports and said they were either written by or heavily involved, Michael Proctor. Sergeant Buchanak pushed back, saying he didn't recognize every document.

[Sergeant Yuri Buchanak]

Some of these search warrants were not. Could not be authenticated. I don't know what these documents were. I didn't read them, so I can't. I can't tell you that he was the author. Like what you presented. I can't speak to you.

[Defense Attorney Alan Jackson]

Just made my point. Even as a supervisor, we don't know.

[Ashley Banfield]

Everything Michael Proctor was doing.

[Sergeant Yuri Buchanak]

It's impossible to know everything somebody was doing.

[Ashley Banfield]

Got it.

[Defense Attorney Alan Jackson]

Especially the case officer on this case, as busy as he was.

[Sergeant Yuri Buchanak]

Right, I'm sorry.

[Defense Attorney Alan Jackson]

Especially the case officer on this case, as busy as he was, Michael Proctor. Right.

[Ashley Banfield]

Next, the cross exam turned to the morning of January 29th when John O' Keefe was found. Sergeant Buchanan confirmed that early on he thought O' Keefe might have been struck in the face with a cocktail glass and that he told the medical examiner's office about that theory. He also confirmed he interviewed Jen McCabe, Matt McCabe and Brian Albert, all at the McCabe home, but not at the scene, not at 34 Fairview. And when asked if it was unusual that Brian Albert, you know, the owner of 34 Fairview, whether it was unusual that Brian Albert was present for those interviews, Buchanak said no. And then a key moment, he admitted that he never even entered 34 Fairview Road that day, never even went inside, never interviewed anybody from 34 Fairview Road, where a man lay dying in the snow out front on the lawn, Never spoke to anyone. They're all cops. Brian Albert owns the home. He's a cop. Other people at the party were cops. Like, you didn't even knock and say, do you know there's a guy dying in your front yard? Nope. And no one came out of that house either. Cops, first responders, never came out to see what was going on. What was that whole commotion out there on the front yard? Ambulance sirens, all that stuff going on? Nope, never came out. Slept through it all. You see where I'm going with this, right? Like, is this reasonable? So if you're the defense attorney, you're going to put on the ol. Ashley and you're going to say, is that crazy? Do you believe that? The defense then zeroed in on evidence handling, specifically John o' Keefe's clothes. Alan Jackson questioned who had access, how were his clothes stored, and when was everything logged? He pointed to Reports documenting searches that were done February 3rd, 4th and 10th. Searches that were done then, but weren't even filed until November 4, 2023. That's like almost 18 months later. And Buchenik didn't dispute it, but he said that evidence bags were properly labeled with time and date and who recovered what. And finally, the day ended with one last challenge. Alan Jackson, Karen's lawyer, asked why the Canton Police chief, Ken Berkowitz, helped to collect taillight evidence on February 4, despite the fact that the Canton Police Department had recused themselves from the investigation. Sergeant Buchanak admitted that he was aware of the recusal, but said that, quote, he didn't give it much thought. And remember when I told you at the top of this podcast that the Canton PD had a. A loose family connection and that was the reason that they recused themselves? Well, that connection is Kevin Albert, brother of Brian Albert. Brian, who's the homeowner at 34 Fairview.

[Unknown Speaker]

Right.

[Ashley Banfield]

The home where John O' Keefe was found dying in the snow. Yeah. Kevin Albert is also a Canton police officer. So loose connection. Yeah, I would say that's tighter than a bull's ass at fly time. That's not a loose connection. And with that, Judge Kanoni adjourned for the day. And Sergeant Buchenik, he'll be back on the stand tomorrow for a whole lot more unfriendly fire. Under cross examination, some things you should know. We're getting some rumors now from reporters in the court. Scuttlebutt that the prosecution does not plan to call Trooper Michael Proctor. I wouldn't either Brian Albert, the homeowner where John was found on his lawn, or Brian Higgins, another law enforcement officer who was at the party that night. And not just any law enforcement officer, an ATF guy. And not just any ATF guy. Another guy who accidentally butt dialed and butt dialed again and had messages and all the rest, and then decided to destroy his phone and get rid of it at a military base. Look, I've gone through a lot of phones, but I've. I've never destroyed them nor taken them to a military base to toss them into a dumpster.

[Unknown Speaker]

Right.

[Ashley Banfield]

I'm. I'm so sus about that. Maybe there's another reason. And, oh, Brian Higgins just happened to be on video outside the Canton Police Department after 1am that night. So, yeah, if I'm the defense attorney, I'm calling Brian Higgins and asking him about that. And I'm calling Brian Albert, and I'm calling Trooper Michael Proctor to ask him about Those dirty, dirty, dirty text messages that the prosecutors conveniently left out. One note about some witnesses coming up. We got a big old note saying no video, no audio can be transmitted of the next couple of witnesses because they are John o' Keeffe's name, niece and nephew. Remember, John's sister died and then her two children were with their dad, John's brother in law. And then John's brother in law died. And so those children were orphaned and John took them in. There is niece and his nephew, but really his kids. And so they're expected to testify. And the judge in the case understandably has said no audio, no video can be transmitted of their testimony. If you're in the courtroom, you can see them, but the media and you, we cannot. And I understand that if you're following the Karen Reed trial as closely as we are, I really want to hear your take. Love it when you drop a comment on our YouTube channel. Love it when you leave a review on Apple. Good or bad, trust me, I appreciate it and it really helps more than you know. And we will be right back here tomorrow, same time, same place. Breaking down day 13. Until then, I'm Ashley Banfield. Thank you so much for listening. Thank you for watching. And remember, the truth isn't just serious, it's drop dead serious.