WHAT KIND OF GRANDMA DOES THIS?! Two Moms Found Stuffed in a Freezer

Summary

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Drop Dead Serious With Ashleigh Banfield

Episode: WHAT KIND OF GRANDMA DOES THIS?! Two Moms Found Stuffed in a Freezer

Date: October 20, 2025
Host: Ashleigh Banfield

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Overview

In this gripping episode, Ashleigh Banfield examines one of the most chilling cases of her career: the murders of Veronica Butler and Jillian Kelly by a group led by Tiffany Mashell Adams, dubbed "Grandma Tiffany." Banfield delves into the disturbing details, legal twists, and the deep injustices inflicted on innocent families, employing her characteristic irreverent yet incisive style to unravel what happened—and why. The discussion is further enriched by guest legal expert Mark Eiglarsh, who breaks down the plea deal and its consequences.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Crime and Victims

• Who is "Grandma Tiffany"?

  • Tiffany Mashell Adams, a 54-year-old grandmother from Oklahoma, orchestrated the kidnapping, torture, and murder of Veronica Butler (her son's ex and the mother of her grandchildren) over a custody dispute.
  • Jillian Kelly, a 39-year-old mother of four and pastor's wife, accompanied Veronica as a court-appointed supervisor and became collateral damage.
  • "Grandma Tiffany just took her place in the front of an Oklahoma courtroom and copped to one of the most egregious crimes I have ever covered." (03:50)

• The Search and the Discovery

  • Veronica and Jillian vanished March 30, 2024, while en route to pick up Veronica's children.
  • Their car was found abandoned, with signs of a violent struggle (blood, broken glasses) but no sign of the women.
  • Two weeks later, their bodies were found in a freezer chest, buried 10 feet underground on farmland linked to Adams' boyfriend, Tad Bert Cullum.

The Plot and “God’s Misfits”

• Premeditation and Evidence

  • The murders were meticulously planned: burner phones, stun guns, tools, and a grave prepared in advance.
  • The crime was executed by a fringe group calling themselves "God's Misfits," consisting of five people: Adams, her boyfriend Tad Cullum, the married couple Cole and Cora Twombly, and a family friend Paul Grice.
  • "Investigators say this was not some random act of violence... It was a premeditated conspiracy involving a small fringe group that called themselves God's misfits. How appropriate." (09:37)

• Horrific Aftermath

  • Adams continued daily life with the children, taking them out in public as if nothing was amiss, even as their mother's body lay hidden in the freezer.
  • "Those little kids had no idea that their mother was decomposing, jammed into a freezer chest with another woman 10ft underground." (14:50)

• Motive

  • Control was the core motive. Adams “took matters into her own hands” to keep Veronica away from her grandchildren.
  • "Prosecutors say the motive on this one was horrifyingly simple. That it was control." (16:51)

The Legal Case

• Pleas and Deals

  • Adams pleaded “no contest” to murder, kidnapping, and conspiracy—avoiding the death penalty but with life in prison, no parole.
  • "What Grandma Tiffany did not do when she stood up in that courtroom before the judge, she did not plead guilty. Grandma Tiffany did not admit any guilt, was just no contest." (18:20)

• Other Perpetrators

  • Cora Twombly and Paul Grice “flipped,” cooperating with prosecutors in exchange for plea deals avoiding the death penalty.
  • Tad Cullum and Cole Twombly await trial; it’s unclear if they’ll accept plea deals.

• Plea Deal Controversy

  • Banfield is frustrated by the lack of a required guilty plea and the dropped charges, questioning prosecutorial decisions.
    • “Why are you offering her a deal where all she has to say is ‘okay, you got me. No contest’? Why are you not offering a deal where she has to say… ‘I did it. I am guilty of all of these things.’” (19:57)

• Prosecutor’s Perspective (with Mark Eiglarsh, 21:55)

  • Plea deals bring closure, avoid painful repeated trials, and spare vulnerable witnesses (like the Twomblies’ 15-year-old daughter).
  • Death penalty convictions are often reversed or drawn out over decades, making life sentences a strategic choice.
    • “Almost half of those who get the death penalty, those convictions are reversed on appeal… Do we really wanna do this all over again in a couple of decades? I don’t think so.” (22:56)

• No Contest vs. Guilty Plea

  • “Most of my clients plead no contest even when they’re absolutely guilty of it. It just gets us to the potential sentence. It really doesn’t have any impact.” – Mark Eiglarsh (24:08)

• Sentencing

  • Scheduled for Jan 28, 2026, set for three days to ensure all victims’ families can testify and gain closure.
    • “We ask for more time than what we possibly need to afford every person who’s been impacted by her horrible deeds to be able to express and get some closure in that courtroom.” – Mark Eiglarsh (26:43)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Crime’s Barbarity
  • “Both women had been violently murdered. The autopsies showed that Veronica was stabbed nine times and had an additional 21 defensive wounds to her hands. She fought this… so hard.” – Ashleigh Banfield (07:59)
• On Adams’ Callousness
  • “Grandma Tiffany went on as though life were just normal. Nothing to see here, nothing unusual. She had the kids out and about town doing her errands.” – Ashleigh Banfield (14:18)
• Commentary on Prosecutorial Decisions
  • “These are five of the most evil people that ever roamed this earth, right? So sometimes that awful necessity is a necessity that a child does have to testify.” – Ashleigh Banfield (18:55)
• Legal Frustration
  • “Why are you offering her a deal where all she has to say is, ‘okay, you got me. No contest’?” – Ashleigh Banfield (19:57)
  • “She will absolutely never get out of prison. She’s pleading and getting life without the possibility of parole, and that’s it.” – Mark Eiglarsh (24:19)
• Lessons from Previous Trials
  • “There’s never a slam dunk. You don’t know that. Anyone who’s been around the criminal justice system knows that when you can get somebody to plead guilty and waive their right to appeal... there’s a value to that.” – Mark Eiglarsh (28:00)
  • “I learned my lesson in October of 1995 with O.J. Simpson. To me, it was a slam dunk that never was.” – Ashleigh Banfield (28:36)
• On the Loss for Innocents
  • “Two innocent mothers lost their lives, their kids lost their parent because one grandma couldn’t stand to lose control. And now she’s lost everything. And so have her two little grandkids.” – Ashleigh Banfield (29:10)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [03:35] – Introduction to the case: Who is Tiffany Adams ("Grandma Tiffany")?
• [05:45] – Disappearance and initial investigation
• [09:37] – The role of "God’s Misfits" & conspiracy details
• [13:50] – The aftermath: Adams' behavior and the children
• [17:26] – Motive and legal aftermath; Adams’ plea deal details
• [21:55] – Interview with Mark Eiglarsh: Why prosecutors took a plea, death penalty logistics
• [24:08] – No contest plea vs. guilty plea explanation
• [26:00] – Why sentencing is set for three days
• [27:05] – The 15-year-old witness and plea bargains’ impact on victims’ families
• [28:36] – Lessons learned from historic trials (O.J. Simpson, Casey Anthony)
• [29:10] – Closing reflection on the devastation left behind

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Conclusion

Ashleigh Banfield ends on a somber reminder: Adams wasn’t a protector but a predator who destroyed families in pursuit of control. The plea deal may have avoided the death penalty, but for the children and families of the victims, justice remains forever incomplete.
"The truth isn't just serious, it is drop dead serious." (29:16)

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Transcript

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[C]

Hey everybody. I'm Ashley Banfield and this is drop dead serious. Every so often there is a case that will come across my desk that makes me sit back and take a long deep breath and stare out the window looking for answers. It's not that I'm looking out the window trying to find answers about the case and but more so answers about the people involved in the case. Who they are and how they can commit such heinous and atrocious and cruel crimes and inflict so much suffering on their victims and then just go about their lives as though nothing ever happened. Grandma Tiffany is one of those people. And if you don't recognize that nickname, her case will chill you to the bone. Not because it's mysterious, but because it is monstrous. Grandma Tiffany is a 54 year old Oklahoma grandmother. Her legal name is Tiffany Mashell Adams. That's Michelle, spelled M A C H E L L E. Tiffany. Michelle Adams. But Grandma Tiffany just took her place in the front of an Oklahoma courtroom and copped to one of the most egregious crimes I have ever covered. She effectively threw in the towel and did the legal equivalent of a. You got me. Prosecutors have been building a case against her for months, saying that she was the mastermind of a plan to kidnap and torture and murder the mother of her two grandkids. All because of a child custody dispute that that mom was having with Grandma Tiffany's son. But there were two victims killed in this crime, not just Veronica Butler. Another woman was killed too. A completely innocent woman named Jillian Kelly. Also murdered. And not because Grandma Tiffany had a beef with her. It seems that Grandma Tiffany and her band of co conspirators decided to go scorched earth, killing anybody who got in the way of Grandma's plan to take out Veronica Gillian, as it turns out, was in the way, even though Gillian didn't even know it. And today Grandma Tiffany had to cop to that too. Veronica Butler was just 27 years old. Jill Kelly. Jillian was 39 and a pastor's wife. Not to mention Jill was a mother of four. The two women vanished on March 30, 2024, they had just set out driving from Hugoton, Kansas, and were headed over the state line into Oklahoma to pick up Veronica's kids for a visit. Those kids had been with their grandmother, Tiffany Adams, while their father was in rehab. But what those women did not know was that they were driving straight into a trap. When Veronica Butler and Jillian Kelly failed to show up for that pickup, family members immediately panicked. But here's the thing. They did. They did show up for the pickup. It's just that no one saw what happened at the pickup. And it's just that there weren't any kids at the pickup. They were all adults at the pickup. I'll get to that in just a minute. The planned visit was court sanctioned. And so when hours and hours passed with no sign of either woman, the police launched a search. And just a few miles across the state line in the Oklahoma panhandle, officers found their car. It was abandoned along a sort of dirt road off the highway, and the driver's side door was open. Inside the car, the investigators found the women's phones. And outside the car, the. The investigators found broken glasses and blood that was there on the dirt road. There was definitely a sign of a violent struggle, they said, but there was no sign of the women. The women were gone with no witnesses, no surveillance video, and no ransom demand. So it was really just a troubling mystery. Grandma Tiffany said she never showed up. She just never showed up. Haha. I'll get to that, too. For two long weeks, family and volunteers and police searched back roads. They searched farm fields. They even searched abandoned oil sites. Until finally, detectives made a gruesome discovery, One that ended all hope of finding these two women alive. On April 14, 2024, investigators uncovered a freezer. It was buried 10ft deep in the dirt on a remote piece of farmland in Texas county, Oklahoma. Inside that freezer chest were the decomposing bodies of both women who'd been missing for weeks. Gillian Kelly and Veronica Butler. Autopsy reports later confirmed what the scene was already screaming at the top of its lungs. Both women had been viol murdered. The autopsies showed that Veronica was stabbed nine times and had an additional 21 defensive wounds to her hands. She fought this. She fought this so hard. She fought like hell as she was being murdered out there on that county road. Jillian Kelly. Jillian, completely innocent, there to be a supervisor. The group wrote her off, apparently as, quote, unquote, collateral damage. She was also stabbed nine times, and she had seven shallower cuts as well as defensive wounds that freezer that was traced to a property connected to grandma Tiffany's boyfriend, a man whose full name was Tad Bert Cullum. And once police connected all the dots, the story that unfolded was almost too evil and barbaric to fathom them. And also idiotic. That's the thing. Evil and barbaric, but unbearably stupid. Investigators say this was not some random act of violence out there in the middle of nowhere. It was a premeditated conspiracy involving a small fringe group that called themselves God's misfits. How appropriate. Five people were charged. Tiffany Adams, the grandmother at the center of the custody fight and the alleged mastermind, her boyfriend, Tad Cullum. Cole and Cora Twombly, a married couple with a 15 year old daughter who eventually would tell police a few things that put some pieces together. And Paul Grice, the fifth guy, just dangling there, a family friend. All of them were charged with first degree murder, kidnapping and conspiracy to commit murder. According to court documents, Tiffany Adams planned the whole thing, starting with the ambush. She bought the burner phones so that they could all plot together and then get rid of those phones. She also bought stun guns, one for each of them, you know, because it was going to be a fight when they grabbed those women out of their car. And there were other supplies, other supplies that were bought that were planned in the days leading up to the women's disappearance and after the killings, those same burner phones were pinging near the burial site. One witness told investigators that Paul Grice, that fifth guy, family friend, even asked how long DNA lasts underground and how to get rid of it. Authorities say Grandma Tiffany's plan was to gather up her co conspirators and murder Veronica Butler. But the plan went sideways when Veronica showed up for that, you know, planned rendezvous to collect her two kids with a court appointed supervisor in the car. A supervisor who, by the way, was ordered to be present. Right. She needed to be there for that. Custodial visit was part of the deal. So, yeah, that was Jillian Kelly's only crime. Jill Kelly was at the wrong place at the wrong time, and she was going to have to die for it because, you know, witness, the pastor's wife and the mother of four, she was a witness, so she had to go. The group did this. When the plan was set in motion for Veronica Butler to drive out to a remote location and do the handoff with the kids, two members of the group diverted their car, right? Veronica Butler and Jillian Kelly's car was diverted off the main road and down a dirt road. And that's where the rest of the group was waiting with weapons and a diabolical plan. They pulled the women from the car using stun guns on them, and then they set to work stabbing them violently and repeatedly until they died. Well, almost died, because some reports said that at least Veronica may have still been alive when she and the body of Jillian Kelly were loaded into a truck and then driven eight miles off to a previously dug grave. Both women's bodies were stuffed into a freezer chest, and the killers then tossed into that chest several tools that were used to commit the crime, like phones and stun guns and bloody clothes. They closed that freezer chest and then threw it 10ft down into that pit, at which point a backhoe then began shoveling dirt back in and covering them up, filling the hole. The grave was dug on farmland that was leased to Grandma Tiffany's boyfriend, Tad Cullum. He's also charged as one of the conspirators. And the guy who owns the land, the landlord, said that, yeah, they. They came to me and they asked if they could do some tree removal, you know, that they were going to have some heavy equipment. And I said, sure, fine. He didn't know. And so he saw the backhoe going. A lot of it happened at night. There's a flag. But here's something else that happened in the days after this awful, awful scene, this horrifying murder of these two women. Grandma Tiffany still had the kids, right? Grandma Tiffany went on as though life were just normal. Nothing to see here, nothing unusual. She had the kids out and about town doing her errands. And surveillance video caught her at a drugstore as she was checking out, getting her groceries. And what broke my heart watching this video was how innocent those kids looked. We've blurred their faces for obvious reasons, but I've seen it, and I've seen their faces. They were laughing and joking with each other, you know, as kids do, like siblings will needle each other and try to get under each other's skin. That's what was going on as Grandma Tiffany was buying whatever the fuck she was buying in there. Those little kids had no idea. They had no idea that their mother was decomposing, jammed into a freezer chest with another woman 10ft underground. And I could only wonder at that moment, what did Grandma tell them? Why was mom not around? Why didn't they get their visit with Mom? Those poor kids having fun at the drugstore behind their evil grandmother with no idea what had just happened in the one or two days before. Prosecutors say the motive on this One was horrifyingly simple. That it was control. Veronica Butler, the mum of those kids, was fighting to regain custody of those two young children from their drug addicted father who was in rehab. A family court had allowed supervised visits for Veronica. And Grandma Tiffany couldn't stand it. In affidavits, Grandma Tiffany allegedly confessed that she, quote, took matters into her own hands because she didn't want Veronica near those kids. And now fast forward to this month, October 2025. Tiffany Adams is standing before a judge and pleading no contest to the murders of Veronica Butler and Jillian Kelly. She also pleaded no contest to kidnapping and conspiracy. But what Grandma Tiffany did not do when she stood up in that courtroom before the judge, she did not plead guilty. Grandma Tiffany did not admit any guilt was just no contest. You've heard of that before, I know you have. It just means, okay, you got me. I can't fight this one. You got me. That's all this is. This isn't. I'm sorry. I can't believe what I've done. Please have mercy on me. I am sorry to Veronica Butler's family. I am sorry to Jillian Kelly's family for the horrors that I inflicted on their, Their. Their loved ones and for the suffering that they will have for the rest of their lives knowing it and being without these women. I am sorry. Please take mercy and pity on me. No, she didn't do that. This horrifying said no contest. You got me. Gig is up, right? And as part of this plea deal that the prosecutors offered, and I still want to know why. Why'd they even offer a deal, right? Why you had her dead to rights. Okay, I get it. There's all sorts of reasons you offer a plea deal. You don't want to, you know, you don't want that 15 year old daughter of the Twomblies to have to testify to all this five times for all these conspiracies, right? You don't want her to have to testify against her parents and have to come into court for all these death penalty cases. I get that. I get it. But these are five of the most evil people that ever roamed this earth, right? So sometimes that awful necessity is a necessity that a child does have to testify. But okay, let's just say that they wanted to spare, that they had her without that kid. They even had her. The evidence that they had on grandma Tiffany was so strong. Even if they said to the 15 year old kid, you know, it's okay, you don't have to testify, they had her. So now let's Just say you're offering her a deal. Why are you offering her a deal where all she has to say is, okay, you got me. No contest. Why are you not offering a deal where she has to say, just like Coburger did, I did it. I am guilty of all of these things. I did it. I conspired. I masterminded this. I brought all those others in. I did this thing. That's not what they offered. At least that's not what they agreed on. I don't know if they ever offered it. And she said no and only said, I'll only do. No contest. But she's not holding the cards like this is what's driving me crazy. As part of the deal, the prosecutors agreed to drop the death penalty that was hanging over her head. So yeah, that's a no brainer. It's a layup. They also agreed to dismiss a few of the lesser charges, including two counts of child neglect and one count of conspiracy. Who cares? That's the least of your worries, you murderous bitch. Right.

[D]

Who cares about the lessers?

[C]

At the very least, with this deal, Grandma Tiffany is still consigned to a life in prison. No shot at parole, no chance. It's not official yet. The sentencing is not going to happen for a couple more months. It's scheduled for January 28th in 2026. Right. So, happy New Year. The state described the murders as, quote, calculated, cold and cruel. Carried out under the guise of religion and control. Because, you know, God's misfits were a religious group. Christians. Bullshit. And the details that the prosecutors laid out are almost as cinematic in their horror. Burner phones and zip ties. A buried freezer. A so called spiritual group saying, where are the God's misfits? And a grandmother who believed that she was above the law. Cora Twombly is one of the misfits, one of the co conspirators and the wife of Cole Twombly. So Cora and Cole got involved, decided it was smart to be a part of all of this. Well, she flipped and decided to talk and got herself a deal. And Cole? We don't know. We don't know what he's saying because so far, no deal for him. We don't know if it's offered, we don't know if he's accepted, we don't know if he's working on it. Just Korra so far. Paul Grice, he was the fifth wheel. Took a while to arrest him too. The four were arrested first and then weeks later, Paul Grice was hauled in and he apparently is really bad. He's the stabber, Right. He also flipped. Paul Grace decided to go to the trough and start feeding as well, first. So you know how it works, right? If you're in a conspiracy, the first people to the trough get the best food, right? They get the best deal, typically. So Cora Twombley and Paul Grice, they flip first, and they admitted their parts in the murders. They got a deal and they avoided the death penalty. But Grandma Tiffany's other CO Ds, the other two CO defendants, Tad Cullum, her boyfriend, the one with the real cheesy beard, and Cole Twamley, that'd be Kora's husband. They're still awaiting trial. Those two. I don't know. I don't know what the prosecutors are. Are doing. I don't know what's cooking. I don't know if there will be a deal offered to them or if it has been offered to them or whether they'd accept one if it was offered to them. Maybe they think they can actually skate with, you know, their three co defendants testifying against them and all that evidence, right? Everything that was in that grave had their all over it. Their DNA, their hairs, their fibers, all those forensic things were in that grave because they never, ever thought that anybody was going to get 10ft down and see their secrets. They never thought that. They thought, look at us. Brilliant. That's what they thought when they had that backhoe going. We did it. They buried the phones. They buried the phones that could be traced to them. They buried the stun guns. So, you know, if anyone was ever digging up that soil for, you know, a construction site, there's no statute of limitations for murder, you morons. They found that freezer. They found those victims, they'd find those accoutrements, and they would nail your asses to a cross no matter what date. So those other two, we'll see what happens with them. They're still awaiting trial. And like I said, I don't know if there's a plea coming or if they'd accept one or if it's going to be one of those pissy little pleas like no contest. Okay, you got me officially on the record. They're still not guilty, right? They're still. Their plea in court is not guilty, your honor. And they're scheduled to. To go to trial sometime in 2026, right? Cases are going to begin then. Earlier on my News Nation show, I needed to get off the ledge. And so I called someone I like a lot, somebody who can usually get me back and centered. Mark Iglarsch, He's a criminal defense attorney and he's a former prosecutor and he's very good at his job. I started talking to him about the deal that Tiffany got, what she agreed to in court today, and why in hell with all the evidence they had on her, why they even offered her a deal in the first place. And here's our conversation. Okay? I don't get it, Mark Eiglarsch.

[D]

Why would the prosecutors even offer this woman a deal when they had her dead to rights and she's the mastermind?

[A]

All right, so let's support your theory. First, let me concede that what she did was especially heinous, atrocious and cruel, cold, calculated and premeditated. All the words that you hear tossed around for cases that warrant the death penalty. Now, that said, the best negotiations are when both parties leave the table not getting exactly what they wanted. While the prosecution would love to see her on death row, the prosecution got her to spend the rest of her life in prison without the possibility of parole. The benefit they get is closure. They don't have to go to a trial. Plus, if they did proceed to try to get the death penalty, all 12 in Oklahoma would have to be unanimous. All it takes is one juror to say, I don't know, she once said God bless you to somebody. I think that's good enough to spare her. Or I think having her live life in prison would be tougher for her than actually being alone on death row. I don't know what possible thought process they might have, but they have to be unanimous. But here's the most important thing, Ashley. Even once they get a conviction, and even if they get the death penalty and all 12 agree, then the appeals start. And you know about this. This will go on for decades. And I researched this in Oklahoma. Almost half of those who get the death penalty, those convictions are reversed on appeal. Either the sentence or the conviction then is reversed. That is an insane number. We really wanna do this all over again in a couple of decades. I don't think so.

[D]

Well, and five times over, cuz there's.

[C]

Five of them in this conspiracy, right?

[D]

And yeah, at about 10 million. Death penalty. That's a lot of. That's a lot of money to put these people away. So can I ask you about the no contest piece? Because at the very, very, very, very least, this woman and the evidence against her was so compelling, why didn't they demand that she say, I am guilty? And here are the details.

[A]

The direct answer is I don't know. Would have been nice, right? But it's not something that's that atypical. Most of my clients plead no contest even when they're absolutely guilty of it. It just gets us to the potential sentence. It really doesn't have any impact. She will absolutely never get out of prison. She's pleading and getting life without the possibility of parole, and that's it. I know we would love to hear her say I'm guilty and even give testimony if somehow that's helpful, but the prosecutors didn't think it was that necessary.

[D]

So with a no contest, does that mean she gets to just scamper away to her cell? Or does she have to turn on the others and testify these other two? Or at least put the pressure on those other two that we got you.

[C]

Dead to rights too.

[A]

You better plead separate issues. So no contest simply means you're not admitting it, you're not contesting it. It's a way to get you to take the plea and you move on. The separate question is, will she, as part of her plea, offer testimony against the others? And specifically, the plea that I read didn't call for testimony against the other two, either because prosecutors feel they have a strong enough case without her and. And. Or because she's garbage. A cross examination of her would decimate her. And she's not worthy of calling. So it's not necessary. I think prosecutors feel that, and they got what they wanted.

[D]

I mean, you're right about that. She is absolute garbage. And she is co burger level garbage. What she plotted and what these people did to these two terrified women, one of whom was collateral damage. I mean, imagine going through this, these five people, and thinking, thinking, well, we'll get this. Fine.

[C]

We'll get this second one too.

[D]

You know, who cares? Who cares?

[C]

She's here and she's a witness.

[D]

The issue that I was curious about was the sentencing. It's scheduled for three days. Why is it scheduled? I've seen sentencing. It takes maybe a half hour. Why three days? Are they planning to unload everything? Every detail, every piece of evidence and get part of the story that we've never yet heard?

[A]

That might be part of it. The other part is you need to ask for significant time in case you want to have victims testify and you don't know how long they're gonna be. So in the abundance of caution, you ask for three days, and if it takes a day, day and a half, that's okay. That's how we do things. We ask for more time than what we possibly need to afford every person who's been impacted by her horrible deeds to be able to express and get some closure in that courtroom.

[D]

So the Twomblies, again, the unbelievable. This has to be a big screen movie. The moronic plot that these five people put together. The Twomblies, the married couple had a.

[C]

15 year old daughter.

[D]

They still do. And this 15 year old daughter probably unknowingly told the police all the conversations that she overheard her parents having about this murder plot. Do you think a of bunch big part of the plea offerings thus far? All three plea offerings thus far? Do you think a big part of it has been to spare this child not only the testimony against her own parents, both of them, but testifying five.

[C]

Times in five different trials?

[A]

The answer is yes, you do want to avoid putting her through that. But if prosecutors didn't get what they wanted, they would have put her through that. I mean, ultimately, getting a life sentence is not a bad deal unless the crime occurred in front of a busload of nuns. And even if it does, there's no slam dunks. I disagree with you, Ashley. I met you during the Casey Anthony case, if you remember. And during that time period when we shared an umbrella when it was raining, we saw a case that we thought was a slam dunk. And the jurors believing she was guilty, walked out of that jury room in tears because, well, we know she did something, but we can't say, was it first, was it second, was it third? There's never a slam dunk. You don't know that. Anyone who's been around the criminal justice system knows that when you can get somebody to plead guilty and waive their right to appeal so they go to their prison and we don't hear from them and they're done. There's a value to that.

[D]

Yeah, I learned my lesson in October.

[C]

Of 1995 with O.J. simpson.

[D]

To me, it was a slam dunk that never was. And I'll tell you what, it informed me as a crime reporter to give the benefit of the doubt and listen and never assume because weird stuff happens. You know what I was gonna say. Hey, Mark Iglosh, I appreciate your wisdom on all of this. You have to talk me off the ledge a lot, but I feel like we're gonna have a lot more of these plea deals, given how hard the death penalty has become and given how expensive it is too.

[A]

Thank you, Ashley. I appreciate you having me on.

[C]

In the end, Grandma Tiffany wasn't a protector. She was a predator hiding behind family and faith. And custody papers. Two innocent mothers lost their lives, their kids lost their parent because one grandma couldn't stand to lose control. And now she's lost everything. And so have her two little grandkids. I'm Ashley Banfield. And remember, the truth isn't just serious, it is drop dead serious.