B (5:07)

Yeah, I mean, first of all, it's important to remember that while this is being promoted as the Trump plan, and you know, Trump basically said it's one of the most important events in the course of human history. And I mean, we could talk later about his completely erroneous digressions into the world of false history, but you know, it's, it's being portrayed by Trump and, and his people as like his peace plan. But the reality is that this is the product of a joint operation between the United States and Israel. You know, Trump assigned his son in law, Jared Kushner, who is deep into the world of business and investment in both Israel and in the Gulf countries. You know, his own private investment firm is bankrolled to the tune of billions of dollars from Saudi Arabia, Qatar, the United Arab Emirates. So, you know, you have Jared Kushner, who also was the architect of the so called Abraham Accords that, that were unrolled during the first Trump administration. And then Steve Witkoff working closely with Ron Dermer, who is Netanyahu's political hitman and his lead political adviser. And he's been the point person in dealing with the so called negotiations with the Palestinian resistance factions and was at.

A (6:27)

The White House event yesterday and Kushner.

B (6:30)

Was there, Ron Dermer was there, Witkoff was there, and in fact, multiple times, it was so bizarre. Trump was just talking directly to Ron Dermer, you know, during the press conference, or it wasn't a press conference because they didn't take any questions, but during the joint appearance between Netanyahu and Trump. And you know, but, but what I'm getting at here is that they, they, they work this thing out with Israel. They then, as they did under Biden and under Trump, they pushed narratives to journalists like Barack Ravid of Axios, the former Israeli military guy who now works for CNN and Axios and often is the conveyor belt for some of these leaks. They push this idea that Netanyahu is very upset about this and Trump is sort of dragging him kicking and screaming. But if you listen to how Netanyahu responded to his quote, unquote, acceptance of this deal, it's Clear that Netanyahu feels like he's in a, in a really great position right now, in part because they were able to get this Arab and Muslim country stamp of legitimacy on this thing. And so what you see if we sort of look at this as like a tree, you see a bunch of ornaments on this tree that easily can just be knocked off that are concessions of a sort to Arab and Muslim countries. So you have this kind of nebulous language about potential future Palestinian self determination and statehood. You have aid coming into Gaza in quantities and under the basic framework from the January 2025 agreement. And it would be largely run by the United nations and the Red Crescent. And then it says international organizations that don't have direct ties to either party, which presumably would mean that the Gaza Humanitarian foundation would no longer be operating in Gaza. So in that sense, there are terms that Hamas had sort of said that it wanted related to aid. It also has language saying that Palestinians are not going to be forced out of Gaza and that Palestinians who do leave Gaza will be allowed to return. And you know, and then there are other aspects to this, such as Israeli withdrawal. But when you then start to dig into the details, what you find is that there are all sorts of traps that are set here. And that's why I liken it to sort of ornaments on a tree, because you can just pluck them off, knock them off, what have you. On the issue of aid, what it says is that it's going to come in, you know, immediately upon the agreement being signed. But then when you read in the details, it says that there's going to be the deployment of an international and Arab force on the ground inside of Gaza. Now, a side point about this is like whether or not Netanyahu actually is going to agree to allow foreign Arab troops to deploy inside of Gaza. But let's just take it on the surface. What it says is that this international force is going to deploy and they're going to take over the security responsibility in Gaza. Because remember, if Hamas is gone, this has been the governing authority for two decades in Gaza that includes basic functions like the police. So they're saying that an international force is going to come in there and that when they go into areas that are currently occupied by Israel, after Israel and Trump certify that there's been demilitarization and Hamas has been cleared from the area, then the Israelis are going to relinquish possession of those areas of Gaza to this international force and that they're going to withdraw. And so they put together These maps for three phases of Israeli withdrawal. The first phase is a very small one where they pull back to lines that are still deep in Gaza in preparation for Hamas within 72 hours, handing over all Israeli captives, living and dead. Okay. But then the second phase of it says that Israel is going to withdraw to lines that are still deep in Gaza and for instance, where they still are in full control of the Philadelphia corridor. And they will remain there until the standards are met that are set by Trump to verify that an international force is sort of in control. And we're looking at the map there right now. So, you know, you have this, this initial yellow line where they're going to pull back to supposedly, you know, in anticipation of the captives being released. And then that red line is really what matters. This is quite deep into Gaza's territory. And what they're saying is that there has to be this international force that's going to be taking over from the Israeli military and, and that the Israelis are going to remain there. And then you have this, this shaded area with the lines that is the so called buffer zone that is going to exist basically in perpetuity. And so, you know, what, what the connection to aid, though, is, they're saying if Hamas rejects this deal or delays the deal, they're only going to implement the plan, including the aid and reconstruction equipment in areas that are controlled by the Israeli military or an international force. So what it means is that even though they say aid is going to flow in, they're linking it to the demilitarization, surrender and disarmament of Hamas. So it's a poison pill that is embedded within this and on that.

A (11:40)

So if you're a Palestinian that lives in, you know, 90 plus live in this over by the sea there. So they would not get aid until this whole process unfolds according to the agreement.

B (11:55)

That's, that is what it says. It, it directly is linking this issue of Hamas being certified to be gone from areas, meaning, you know, any armed resistance in order for them to function in those areas. So, you know that, that presumably anticipates Hamas either rejecting this or, you know, Trump this morning said he's going to give Hamas three or four days to respond to this. And if they don't accept the deal, that he's going to let Israel do whatever it wants to do in Gaza, which Netanyahu also referenced in his appearance with Trump. And Trump said that they would, they would do that. So it does, it does seem to be that what they're saying is, yes, we're going to resume aid under the framework of the January ceasefire, agree, which would be 600 trucks a day, equipment to remove rubble, the rehabilitation of bakeries, clinics, etc. But then further down in it, it says that, you know, if Hamas doesn't accept this, they're only going to do it in areas where Israel is controlling it, which could create something, you know, similar to what we saw with the Gaza Humanitarian foundation, where a couple thousand Palestinians have been killed seeking aid since they started functioning. But, you know, what I'm hearing from Palestinian sources and people close to the resistance, Palestinian resistance, is that this amounts to essentially an attempt by the United States and Israel to achieve, through diplomatic means, while getting the veneer of Arab legitimacy on it, what Israel failed to achieve through its military campaign. They were not able to free all of their captives. There are still 20 living Israelis believed to be held captive in another 28 bodies. They have not destroyed Hamas. They have not disarmed the Palestinian resistance. They have not gotten Hamas to leave the planet or to. To, to agree to disband completely and surrender. So they're trying to essentially win this victory that they are not able to achieve militarily. And I think that what's riding over all of this is, on the one hand, I think Netanyahu wants Hamas to reject this because he'll be in, from his perspective, in his strongest position ever. We got all of these Arab countries to endorse this Trump plan that Netanyahu understands to be a malleable entity that he can shape however he wants it, as he's done with, with previous agreements. So either way, either way you cut it. Netanyahu feels that he wins, Hamas rejects it or delays. Trump openly said he can go in and resume the genocide. Hamas accepts it means that they're essentially surrendering the cause of Palestinian liberation if they accept it with no amendments. And while Hamas has not released an official response to this, they just were given the official document, Actually, after it was given to the press in the United States and posted by the White House, then Qatar and Egypt formally presented it to Hamas. No Palestinians. I'm not talking about Hamas, not even from the Palestinian Authority, the kind of bootlicking entity that is a subcontractor for the Israeli occupation. None of them were consulted about this. So it's. It's a supposed peace plan for Palestine that included the involvement of zero Palestinians in framing it. But if you really boil it down to it, what this would be is a total surrender agreement. And there is pressure from Gaza, there is pressure from the families of the negotiators. Israel just tried to assassinate the lead negotiators. The last time that they gathered to discuss a supposed American peace plan, they bombed their headquarters in, in Qatar, and they had a headquarters there because the United States asked Qatar to host them there. So, you know, we're in this situation where the starvation is extreme, the desperation is extreme. Many people in Gaza just want this to end by any means necessary. And Hamas and the other negotiators can engage in a process. But if the military commanders from Qassam and Sariah Al Quds on the ground inside of Gaza and are not on board with the terms of this and don't want to accept it, there's very little that the Hamas external leadership can do if they aren't in sync with the command structure on the ground. And Ryan, one thing that hasn't been reported on that, that I've been told by sources, is that since that September 9th strike where Israel tried to assassinate Hamas's leadership externally and their negotiating team, most Hamas leaders that survived that strike are being held in something that in a way resembles house arrest in Qatar. Now, they're told it's for their own safety. They're told that the threat is still active. But these guys are not being given any kind of regular access to each other, to other members of the Hamas movement, to phones, to computers, to any way to communicate. In fact, almost every source I have within Hamas, they are only able to use an electronic device for minutes each day, and that includes communicating with family members and others. So, you know, I'm told that they are still able to maintain some contact with the command structure on the ground inside of Gaza, but it's more akin to using couriers right now. So even though Israel failed to kill the negotiators in this operation, they made it extremely difficult for the Palestinians to coordinate to make sure that if they say they agree to something, everyone is on board with it. They're confident they're going to be able to achieve that. But three or four days when you've just been bombed and you're being held in isolation conditions, it's tough.

A (17:22)

Yeah. A little bit later, we're going to be joined by Alex Colston from the Samud Flutella, which is arriving in, you know, on the short, near the shores of Gaza at a quite a interesting time. You know, just as all, all of this is coming to a head and we're gonna. And Italy, Spain, other countries have been kind of taking some level of protection or defense for the, for that flotilla. We'll talk a little bit about what that, what that means, but, but for now. So the case for taking the deal seems pretty straightforward, which is they're under so much pressure from Palestinians in Gaza who just want this to end under any circumstances, like under, under absolutely any terms. So what is your, what is your expectation about what the response will be? Typically, Hamas has, has agreed to almost everything that's been put before it, usually with some like, slight amendment which then ends the negotiations. And it's, and it's, and that, and that response is considered to be, oh, this is a full on, you know, rejection of it. What, what is, what is your sense of how Hamas kind of balances this? Because like you said, if, if they reject it, not only are they isolated from the, the, all of these Arab and Muslim countries, including even like Pakistan and, and so on, but then Trump has, you know, fully green lit, you know, just a full on expansion of the, of the genocide. So how, like what, what is your sense of how they navigate this situation?

B (19:05)

I mean, look, if, if we were dealing, if we were dealing with an entity other than Israel where there actually was, you know, a negotiation and not, you know, this sort of ultimatum, you take, you, you, you take this full surrender term or, or else we just continue the genocide of women and children in, in Gaza, then what you would normally have happen, and this has happened at some points during the past two years, is Hamas would then go through it and they would say, okay, we can live with this, we can accept this and zero in on a few points and say we want clarification on these or we want to propose amendments. I want to remind people that on August 18, Hamas accepted almost the entirety of what Trump and Netanyahu said was the agreement that would result in a 60 day ceasefire where 10 of the Israeli living captives would have been released and that would have started a process. Instead of responding to that, even though the mediator said it constituted 98% of the Israeli ultimatum, they ignored it and then they started planning to assassinate the negotiators. So, you know, Hamas is in a tough position. My sense, and you know, I don't, I don't have any inside information at this point about this, is that they're not going to just accept this verbatim, that they're going to try to find some way of clarifying some points and then they're going to zero in on this issue of self determination for Palestinians. I mean, first of all, it's grotesque. You know, a former advisor to Palestinian negotiators not Hamas, but other in other conflicts. Diana Bhuttu told me recently that the Palestinians are being forced to treat basic food and medicine as a negotiating point and that that should be removed entirely from this, that it shouldn't be right.

A (21:02)

It's a war crime to use that right.

B (21:05)

You, you either surrender your legitimate international rights to self defense and self determination, or we starve everyone, including the elderly, women and children in Gaza. So, you know, I, I, I think that what might be interesting is which Palestinian groups is Hamas going to bring together to try to offer a unified response? In recent days, prior to the attempt to assassinate the Hamas leadership, they tried to get officials from Fatah, the ruling party of the Palestinian Authority controlled by Mahmoud Abbas, to join with Hamas and others in presenting a unified response to the United States and Israel. And Fatah didn't do that. Now you have Abbas as irrelevant as he's ever been. You know, his decrepit regime is just flailing. He was denied a visa to the United States. But you do have quite a bit of unity among every other Palestinian faction. So I think that they're going to try to present what they say as a national plan. The other side of this, though, Ryan, is has to do somewhat with American domestic politics. Trump is watching, especially in the aftermath of the assassination of Charlie Kirk, which really put a fine point on it, but it's been building for a while. Prior to that, there is a lot of dissatisfaction within sections of Trump's base with the US Policy toward Israel, and it's become a domestic political liability for Trump to some degree. On the other hand, you have this tremendous momentum where countries around the world, even though it doesn't really mean anything in reality, are saying, we recognize an independent Palestinian state. The tide of history is so overwhelmingly shifting. There's a new New York Times poll out showing that more Americans now sympathize with Palestinians rather than the Israelis. You have huge international shift in opinion on this issue. And I think that Israel is a major liability for Trump. Also, you mentioned at the beginning they're creating this neoliberal economic plan for Gaza that, you know, where Tony Blair is going to sort of play the role of El Paul Bremer, the viceroy that Cheney and Bush put in charge of Iraq after the US Invasion. Remember that Jared Kushner is bankrolled by Qatar, Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates in his venture capital firm and is dirty with all kinds of business in that region. And so, you know, Trump in May goes and he meets with all of these emirs and other leaders of these countries in the Gulf. And he loves what he's seeing there. He loves the fact that they don't have to deal with elections the way that he does. And I think Trump is looking at this as a huge business opportunity. He's not going to get his Gaza Middle East Riviera in the formal way that he threatened it in February. But he basically talked about it yesterday when he said to Ron Dermer during the thing, he's like, oh, Israel gave up Gaza. They gave up the most beautiful piece of real estate in the Middle East. So part of the agenda here too is the Trump family business. So there is a degree to which Netanyahu could cause problems for what Trump wants to develop Gaza one way or the other. And that's why Kushner was a central player in all of this. Kushner, it's, it's remarkable open corruption that you have Tony Blair and Jared Kushner with all of their entanglements. They're going to somehow now be the viceroys of Gaza and the priority is going to be investment and the priority is going to be making that money and the kickbacks. Yeah.

A (24:45)

Trump seems in a way to be naming himself Amir of Gaza with this.

B (24:52)

You know, you know, he didn't recommend it himself. He didn't, he didn't nominate himself. But he, you know, he's reluctantly taking the position.

A (24:57)

That's how he put it. Right. Exactly. He's like, he says, so much work to do, but this is so important and nobody else can do it that you know that, that he's going to do it. Larry Ellison, you know, it's, that's why alluded to at the top is either the top donor or one of the top donors to the Tony Blair Institute. And Tony Blair is a, basically a project, you know, of Larry Ellison at this point. Larry Ellison and his son, you know, have over the last several weeks pulled off an absolutely historic consolidation of, of power in, in the media, including Warner Brothers, cnn, Paramount, Tick Tock, which Oracle is effectively taking over. Larry Ellison has, has been the biggest donor to Friends of the IDF in, in that organization's history. That's a non profit that builds like military installations and otherwise supports the, the idf. He has been a relentless and ruthless supporter of Israel throughout his, throughout his life. Tony Blair was floated a year and a half or so ago, if you remember, as in this precise same position. But at the time there was public pushback and he denied, you know, that he was going to have anything to do with this. I was told at the time from somebody close to him, though this was true. He just denied it because it was too hot. Obviously it was true, because here he is now, a year and a half later, doing the exact same thing. Larry Ellison has also spoken very openly about what he sees as the role of technology in government, which is creating digital ideas, you know, mass, mass surveillance, biometric, you know, technology being, being used to, you know, keep people on their best behavior. Do you, do you suspect that this could become some type of dystopian experiment in, like, a future of what kind of tech a tech republic could look like?

B (27:08)

Look, I mean, if you, and how.

A (27:09)

Do you, and, yeah, how do you even get to that dystopian fantasy land from where we are now? Like, can the Indonesians actually go in there and disarm these factions?

B (27:22)

Okay, let's take the, let's take the last thing you just asked there first. So, you know, just for people that maybe didn't read the, the 20 point plan, it calls for an international security force, they call it to be immediately deployed to Gaza, and they don't directly say what countries are going to be involved with it. Steve Witkoff said on Fox News this morning that last night they had a meeting with a, with one country. He didn't name the country, to see if they were up to the task. And Trump has said that it's going to be on Arab countries to ensure that Hamas is disarmed and demilitarized. So what they presumably are envisioning here is you deploy some kind of an international force of Arab countries, maybe other Muslim countries, including Indonesia or Pakistan. Pakistan has had its forces as part of UN Blue helmet operations before. So assuming Netanyahu agrees to this, which I have some doubts about, you have this force deploy and let's say that the Palestinians have said they're not going to give up their weapons. So you're going to, you're going to have Emirati soldiers, you know, Qatari soldiers, Indonesian. They're going to go and they're going to face down against Qassam Brigades on the territory that those fighters from Qassam grew up in as the descendants of people who were ethnically cleansed by a murderous entity that was imposed on the region by Europe and the United States. That's, that's the plan here. I mean, how do you think that's going to go? And then also you're going to have Israel repeatedly saying, well, they're not doing a good enough job. So we're going to go in now and we're going to do a drone strike. And it's only a matter of time before Israel ends up killing some of those international forces. You're going to have Lebanon type scenarios replaying over and over and over. So this whole thing is an utter farce. The idea that you're going to have an international force there that's going to have any credibility or legitimacy before the Palestinian people of Gaza, it's, it's, it's utterly insane. But setting that aside and going to your first part of your question, which is an interesting one, if you look at the history of colonialism and, and sort of the, the, the opportunity to create a brave new world, you know, in, in where the savages once resided, they're always using, seeking to use the local population to test out whatever new technologies they have, whatever new theories they have, whatever new medicines they want to test. And I think that that is part of what they'll end up trying to do with Palestinians in Gaza. And you also have our colleague Anthony Lowenstein, the Australian journalist wrote a book called the Palestine Laboratory, which is about how Israel has used Palestinians and Palestinian territory as a testing ground for its weapons and intelligence products that it then wants to market to the rest of the world. And this reminds me of the discourse within neocon circles as they anticipated the invasion and occupation of Iraq, where they were going to remake a society in the Middle east with a neoliberal economic vision from the ground up that's embedded and it's not even, it's not even thinly veiled. It's just right there explicitly in this proposal. So I think that is part of the plan, that is part of the agenda. And if you combine that with what Trump said starting in February about a Gaza Riviera and then the other comments that he's made, it seems pretty clear that that's, they're trying to build this neoliberal coalition that's going to somehow create a miracle in the Middle east using the most beautiful oceanfront property, as Trump put it, that exists. It's really sick stuff, but it harkens back to the eras of British colonialism and the way that the natives were treated when the British came in to conquer them and bring, you know, civilization. It's, it's, it's, it's a neo technological form of colonialism that is laid out quite bluntly in this document.

A (31:10)

Yeah, I want to bring in Alex Colston here, drop, drop site journalist who's, who's joining us from, from the serious, which is, you know, steaming, not, I guess not steaming sailing, motoring towards Gaza at this. At this moment. And Alex, a lot of people, I saw a lot of people when they saw this announcement, they said, well, wait a minute, what happens with the flotilla now? Like, if, you know, if. Let's say we wrap this live stream and Hamas says, contrary to what Jeremy expects. All right, good enough. And they open the open. Now, as Jeremy pointed out, the. The aid. The aid plan in the agreement is not cut and dry. It does not. It does not flood aid to the entire Gaza Strip, only to, you know, particular areas. So there would still be enormous amount of need for humanitarian aid even in that event. But how has the flotilla been kind of thinking through and responding to this, this very, very strange timing? You did, I'm sure you did not. You guys did not plan and organize to be approaching Gaza just as Hamas is presented with this take it or leave it offer, but that's where you find yourself. So what's. What has the response been from the steering committee and from others? I think starlink is struggling here. Jeremy, are you having trouble with him too?

B (32:51)

I think, Alex, I think you need to turn your camera off and we'll try to get at least your voice clean.

A (32:56)

Yeah, let's see how that works.

C (32:59)

Can you hear me now?

A (33:00)

A little bit better. Let's try.

C (33:01)

See, can you hear me?

A (33:02)

If, if not, bounce off and rejoin.

C (33:04)

But.

A (33:05)

But that's a little better.

C (33:07)

You got it. Okay.

A (33:09)

This is better. Yeah.

C (33:10)

You know, first thing I want to say is, okay, we're not going very fast. We're going four knots. So we're basically just sitting in the water. We're not going very fast. And we're less than 200 miles from. About 200 miles from Gaza and about 50 miles, we will reach what's called the orange zone. What organizers call the Orange zone.

A (33:35)

Yeah, he's. He's breaking up. The orange zone is kind of inside Gaza, Israeli territory.

B (33:47)

Alex, why don't you try to. Why don't you try to reconnect? Just disconnect and try to reconnect. And we, you know, if people can just bear with us. Remember too, that Alex Colston is out in the middle of the. The sea. They're using satellite Internet connection. And, you know, there's a lot of variables at play here, so hopefully we can, we. We can get Alex back in. But it is, it's going to be interesting to see what happens. Ryan, as we've been posting and I encourage people also to our X feed, we have a great team of people that really are on top of the news 24, 7. But there also have been, you know, naval vessels from Turkey and some European countries that have been escorting these ships. And you know, we are getting indications that Israel is saying that they are going to attempt to intercept the ships. They might try to force everybody to get onto one Israeli naval vessel. They're talking about potentially sinking some of the ships, taking others to the port of Ashdod. But we, we do have, I think, Alex back on there.

A (34:45)

How are you doing now? Alex? Hey, how's this?

C (34:48)

Can you hear me?

B (34:49)

Go ahead, just talk, just talk, Alex.

C (34:52)

You got it? Okay. All right, so basically we're 200 nautical miles from Gaza. At about 4am today, we'll reach zone which is 150 miles from Gaza. Just to give you some sense of reference here, the Khandala and the Madeleine were Both intercepted between 900 and 110 miles. So we're getting closer and closer to where.

A (35:25)

Yeah, it's still, still, still struggling.

B (35:31)

Yeah, we're, we're, Alex, we're, we're struggling there. I tell you what we're going to post, we'll get Alex to, to record some video on the ship and we'll post that on the X feed. We've been doing that on both our Instagram and our X feeds and it's, it's, it sucks that we can't talk to him live there, but this has been a challenge throughout, throughout this flotilla. And yeah, our social media feeds are covering this extensively and I don't know.

A (35:57)

If you saw this, but the Israeli Ministry of Foreign affairs put out a new basically direct threat this morning toward the flotilla, saying that they had newly uncovered, never before released Hamas documents. You always brace yourself when they, when they've got these that, that flagged two people involved with organizing the flotilla as, as secret Hamas operatives. People immediately noticed that they had actually released these, some of these documents back in June and when the last flotilla was, was going forward and said like to make the case that, you know, Greta is linked who's on the flotilla again, that Greta is linked to Hamas. These, these two folks are like in Europe. They are the, the claim apparently from Israel is that despite them having released these, this information that these are Hamas operatives, the UK is just fine with this Hamas operative rolling around London. And you know, you, you can't, you can't wear a, or T shirt with a red triangle in London without, you know, looking at a five year sentence like this. Civil disobedient disobedience organization Palestine Action has been proscribed as a, you know, Terrorist supporting organization. And they're jailing elderly and disabled people for making posts on social media or saying at public rallies that they support, simply for saying, I support Palestine action. Forget Hamas, like just this organization, Palestine action. So Israel wants you to believe that there are these, you know, publicly known Hamas operatives running around Europe organizing this flotilla, and Europe is just, it's just allowing them to tromp around. They also released a letter from Ismail Hania to one of the organizations that they're referencing here saying that there should be a, there is a need for unity between this organization and, and Hamas and was saying this, this ought to be taught in like classes about propaganda and critical thinking. And just ask the students how, how does this Israeli Ministry of Foreign affairs message undermine itself just within its own four corners? It's like, because if you have Haniyeh asking this organization to be, to get in line, by definition they are not in line. Like, just use a little critical thinking here. But what it, what it does portend is a threat of, of, of assault is, is why it is a, it is a newsworthy development, not because it's serious, but because, you know, it's, it suggests a pre. Justification for a lethal attack.

B (38:39)

Well, and you, you, you do have a history, not just of Israel snatching people on these boats in the flotilla, but, but killing people on the boats in previous years. So it's always a real threat there. But as you were speaking, it reminds me too of something that I heard one of the Hamas officials who was interviewed last night on Al Jazeera saying about the issue of disarmament of Palestinians. It's always the case that Israel attacks the legitimate grievances or rights of people, including people on the flotilla, to try to confront the fact that there's a starvation siege that's been imposed on the people of Gaza. So you want to criminalize them and make it seem like the asserting their rights or trying to uphold the rights of people of Gaza is somehow the crime itself. But on the issue of weapons too, focusing on the issue of demilitarization is, implies that Israel's genocide is justifiable because of, you know, some pistols and rifles and homemade explosive devices that remain in the hands of the Palestinian resistance. I mean, this issue of Hamas must disarm. We should talk about it on a, on a, on just a practical level. What, what does Hamas actually have? What does Qassam Brigades actually have? They put out videos of their operations. They are making weapons from by repurposing Israeli ordinance. They have pistols, they have small arms fire. They're engaged in small scale guerrilla warfare. The level of importance that Israel has placed on this to say the genocide must continue until they lay down their weapons. What are those weapons being used for? Right now they're being used to attack forces that are occupying and committing mass murder. And I think that there's, you know, so many in the media, but also just in the broader discourse, fall into the trap of buying into Israel's narrative about this stuff. Well, why doesn't Hamas just disarm? What weapons does Hamas have? Right now you're talking about a nuclear armed country that is using the most sophisticated weaponry in the world fighting against people wearing Adidas sandals, Keffas and homemade incendiary devices that they're, I have to say, quite bravely running up and dropping them in Israeli tanks. It's not like they're, you know, launching cruise missiles from, you know, another nation at Israel. They are in battle there. So these, all these, the point being all these narratives, Israel just floods the zone with lies and the twisting of facts and, and also they've been caught doctoring, you know, and, you know, purported documents. We're still waiting to see the big Pentagon underneath Al Shifa hospital. Yeah, you know, so everything they're saying about the flotilla is a preemptive effort to justify whatever violence they unleash against these brave people that are on those boats trying to bring food to a starving population.

A (41:44)

And that's a, that's a really interesting point about disarmament that I hadn't actually made the connection before, but it's, it's worth underlining. Like the, the vast majority of the quote unquote weapons that Hamas is using against is Israeli soldiers at this point are repurposed Israeli munitions that have, because there's always a dud rate of some, let's say it's 1% to 20%. If you drop hundreds of thousands of tons of munitions in a concentrated area and you have just a 1% dud rate which is lower than to be expected, you're going to have tons upon tons of unexploded ordinance just all over Gaza. And it's that unexploded ordinance that Hamas repurposes in its conflict with the Israeli soldiers. So how would they lay that down? Israel already laid it down like they literally laid it down on the ground. How does Hamas lay that down?

B (42:45)

But it's also a distraction from the fact that this force of people using repurposed Israeli weapons and to an extent domestically manufactured weapons, that Israel has totally failed to defeat them. They have entirely failed. This is a way of, you know, I, I, I spoke to Samuel Arian yesterday about this who's been on, on, on our show and he was saying that they're trying to achieve through diplomatic means what they haven't been able to achieve militarily. And they have not defeated the resistance. What they've managed to do is kill tens upon tens upon tens of thousands of Palestinians and yet there is still resistance. There are still Israeli soldiers being killed. So the Israelis need to promote this, this fiction, this boogeyman that Hamas is somehow armed to the teeth. Look at even, look, let's, let's talk about October 7th prior to the genocide, starting in this way. What, what was used to con, to conduct the operations on October 7? Yes, you had an initial barrage of rocket fire. Almost all of those rockets are manufactured domestically within Gaza from Sara Al Quds.

A (43:49)

And a lot of them from unexploded.

B (43:51)

Ordnance from Qassambing never stopped. Yeah, absolutely. So you had the rockets but then you had domestically retrofitted drones that were basic over the counter drones, the kind you can buy on Amazon or anywhere else to go over and to disable some of the surveillance operations on the concentration camp fence. You had a limited supply of domestically manufactured RPGs and some of them that were bought from Israelis on the black market. You had semi automatic and automatic weapons. You had hang gliders, etc. None of this was a nation state arsenal of weapons that was used on October 7. At the core of it was remarkable creativity and ingenuity of guerrilla fighters who view themselves as fighting a war of liberation and a war of defense against an occupying power. I'm just talking about the ordinance that was used. Israel has constantly made it seem as though Hamas is Iran, you know, in terms of the kind of weaponry that it has. And it's just a big lie. The whole thing has been a lie. The entire point of it is to say Palestinians should have no rights to any self defense. That's the entire point of this. So they exaggerate it and they make it seem like they have some arsenal of offensive weaponry.

A (45:06)

If you have a little bit more time. I did, I did promise I would play some of the Trump.

B (45:11)

Yeah.

A (45:12)

Comments. Let me, let me throw this up. And also if I didn't mention it before, people should go read Jeremy and Jawa's piece that they published just this morning. You know, kind of going, going through this. But so here's, here's, here's Trump laying out some of his thoughts.

D (45:31)

We're right there we're right there. First time in thousands of years. If you really look into it, if you study back, if you, if you're a scholar, you would say thousands of years. Israel would have my fallback into finish the job of destroying the threat of Hamas. But I hope that we're going to have a.

A (45:48)

And I did roll this at like 1.5.

D (45:50)

If Hamas rejects the deal, which is always possible, they're the only one left. Everyone else has accepted it, but I have a feeling that we're going to have a positive answer. But if not, as you know, Bibi, you'd have our full backing to do what you would have to do. Everyone understands that the ultimate result must be the elimination of any danger posed in the region. And the danger is caused by Hamas. The tyranny of terror has to end. And this is again, something that we're looking for. This is eternity. This is for forever. To ensure the success of this effort, my plan calls for the creation of a new international oversight body, the Board of Peace. We call it the Board of Peace. Sort of a beautiful name, the Board of Peace, which will be headed. Not at my request, believe me, I'm very busy. But we have to make sure this works. The leaders of the Arab world and Israel and everybody involved asked me to do this. So it'll be headed by a gentleman known as President Donald J. Trump of the United States. That's what I want, is some extra work to do. But it's so important that I'm willing to do it. And we'll do it right. And we're going to put leaders from other countries on and leaders that are very distinguished leaders. And we'll have a board. And one of the people that wants to be on the board is the UK Former Prime Minister Tony Blair.

A (46:53)

Good man.

D (46:54)

Very good man. And some others. And they'll be named over the next few days. And it'll be quite the board working. Everybody wants to be on it. Now, I don't know if that had anything to do they named me and everybody else wanted to be on it. I guess they figure he's a soft touch, he'll be easy to deal with. Working with the World bank and others, it will be responsible for recruiting and training a new government that will be made up of Palestinians, along with highly qualified experts from all around the world. Hamas and other terrorist factions will play no role in the board, but they'll play no role in the governance of Gaza at all, directly or indirectly. As you know, thousands of Hamas leaders have been killed and soldiers have been killed. And we can never forget October 7th, but thousands have paid the price for that. And now it's time to get our hostages back and get back to trying to build something that's really great and very important.

A (47:40)

In our meeting today, Brian, he says some interesting stuff right after this, but I did want to pause on that elsewhere. He says BB's constantly talking about October 7th, and here he says October 7th was terrible. We can, we can never forget it. But thousands of people paid the price. Like, this is a time talking about October 7th in a kind of. It's time to turn the page on it. Did you, did you notice that?

B (48:06)

Yeah, I mean, he, well, he. What he was referencing there, too is he's saying, you know, we've killed thousands of Hamas. You know, he was talking about Hamas. And it also shows a total ignorance of the history of Palestinian resistance. And, you know, embedded within this, too, is this idea that if you destroy Hamas as an institution and you say, well, we're going to erase this acronym from, from existence in the world, that, that somehow is going to solve the issue. Palestinian history is filled with the, with generational leadership being assassinated, imprisoned, exiled, and a new generation rises up. So, you know, everything that they're saying here is, is. Is. Is ignoring the entire arc of history that exists over the course of, not just the past 77 years since the onset of the Nakba and the creation of this serial killer masquerading as a nation state, but prior to that also when the British occupation was there. The Qassam Brigades, Hamas's armed wing, are named after Izzeddin Al Qassam, who was a resistance figure against British colonialism and occupation. He was originally from, from Syria, but that's who the Brigades are named after. And, you know, there's a reason that Palestinians connect their history and their resistance not just to the period that began in the late 1940s, but extend it back to the time of the, of the British. In fact, another Hamas official was interviewed recently on, on Al Jazeera about Tony Blair potentially being put in charge as the Viceroy. And he was saying, you know, is it because he has Palestinian heritage? Is it because of the role of the British in unleashing the Nakba, their role in the Balfour Declaration? And, you know, just sort of showing that they understand the epic sort of connection between the US and the former British Prime Minister, saying, well, we're now going to be in charge of Gaza again. This is a, this, this is. Brings it full circle. You put Tony Blair in charge as the Viceroy there. And what you're saying to the Palestinians is, we're back to that era. We're reminding you that all of this kicked off with British colonialism.

A (50:17)

The Blair declaration. Let me just play a little bit.

B (50:21)

More of not at 1.5 speed.

A (50:24)

All right, hold on.

D (50:27)

Was very clear about his opposition to a Palestinian state. And he continuously mentions October 7th, and I understand that most people do, and I understand and respect his position on many things, but what he's doing today is so good for Israel. I noticed that they have large crowds gathering in Israel all the time, and they have my name up. They like me for whatever reason. Bibi, I don't know, but they do like me. But they say two things. Please get the hostages back and please end the war. They've had it. It's had it. So I think it's a very popular thing you do because he's a warrior. He doesn't know about getting back to a normal way of life, but he is a warrior, and Israel is lucky to have him. But now the people want to get back to peace. They want to get back to normalization in a true sense. Several countries have foolish you, right?

A (51:22)

So I thought that was an interesting exchange or not. It's not even exchange. It's just Trump talking to Netanyahu. But he seems to be alluding to a couple of facts. One, that Trump is more popular than Netanyahu back in Israel. Then two, his reference to the protests was. Was interesting, and he's slightly mischaracterizing it. Not all the protesters say end the war. They, they, they do say release the hostages. Some say end the war. He seems to be telling Netanyahu, look, I'm popular, and ending the war and getting the hostages out is popular. And so the thing you're doing now is, is a good thing, like kind of reassuring him. And what did you make of that from.

B (52:09)

Well, I mean, there's always a question here, and it's not just about, you know, Trump and his erratic behavior. This has always been the question about the United States with Israel, you know, who's ultimately calling the shots, you know, and in the. Over the course of the past two years, it's been a very interesting case study. And I think what we're seeing here is Trump has his own agenda that I think also relates to his family business, to his relationships with Qatar, Saudi Arabia, the Emirates and others. And it's not, it's not just about the Abraham Accords. It's also about business. It's about money. It's about the fact that I think Trump really, he envies those, those, those states and those rulers, the, the kings.

A (52:55)

He said that out loud.

B (52:56)

When he, he said it out loud, he was marveling at the marble, et cetera. But I, I, I emphasize that because I think it's a real dynamic here. And so I think that part of what Trump thinks he's doing is convincing Netanyahu that Netanyahu is basically going to get most of what he wants anyway. And let's, let's go along and do this from Netanyahu's perspective. I think he's doing something similar with Trump where he's saying to Trump, oh yeah, we'll, we'll agree to all of these things, even though I'm sure there are multiple things in that 20 points that Netanyahu is telling his people privately, we're not going to abide by any of this stuff or it's not going to happen, or Trump, Trump doesn't understand how this is actually going to work. But at the end of the day, I think Netanyahu really wins on this one. Yes, Trump's administration is stacked, full of Zionists. Yes, the United States government and posture has always been full support for Israel. But I think there is a micro disagreement here in terms of how they want the outcome. I don't necessarily think Netanyahu wants a bunch of Arab nations coming in and being in charge of, of the, of the money inside of Gaza. I think Netanyahu wants to seize Gaza as a territory for his Greater Israel Project. So that's the dance that we're seeing here right now. But Netanyahu and we, we can play it too, in Hebrew. After he, you know, played his role accepting the, you know, the Trump peace plan or whatever, he then releases this video or post this video in Hebrew in which he basically says, this is better than we could have imagined. And you can say, oh, well, he has to say this because he's in trouble with his coalition. I don't buy it. I think that actually he kind of means it. This is like better than we could have imagined because now we have all these Arab countries that are going to co sign our agenda. That's basically what he's saying we're going to achieve militarily.

A (54:45)

Yeah. Now the entire world, including the Arab Muslims, pressing Hamas to accept the terms to release all our hostages, both living and deceased, while the IDF remains in most of the Gaza Strip. Why would, who would have believed this? After all, people constantly say, you must accept Hamas's terms. Get everyone out. The IDF should withdraw. Hamas can recover and it can also rehabilitate the Strip. No way. That's not happening. On the contrary. And President Trump added that if Hamas refuses, he will give Israel full backing to complete the military operation and eliminate them. That's why I think from every perspective, it was an excellent visit.

B (55:21)

Yeah.

A (55:22)

Did you agree to a Palestinian state? Absolutely not. It's also not written in the agreement. But there is one thing. We did say that we would strongly oppose a Palestinian state. President Trump also said it. He understands it. He said he understands it. He also said at the UN that it would be a huge reward for terrorism. And so. Yeah, right.

B (55:43)

So he's saying, actually the document does say, does have this vague language, but it does actually say that the conditions may be in place for Palestinian self determination and statehood. And so if you, if you contrast Netanyahu saying, oh, absolutely not, Trump is saying no state. And then you look at the foreign ministers of eight Muslim countries put out a statement yesterday endorsing this Trump plan, including all of the countries that Trump mentioned, as well as Indonesia, Turkey, etc. Saying the opposite, that this is going to lead to Palestinian statehood. And this is like a classic Trump Rorschach thing where it's like you could everybody, the Arab countries can say that they achieved that. Oh, what's it, this is what's in the agreement. The reason I keep saying this is the big winner here is Netanyahu is because first of all, he'll just violate any agreement anyway. That's true. He may formally get a side letter. He has the President of the United States openly saying, yeah, if Hamas doesn't do exactly what we want, you can go in and keep genociding in Gaza. But also they can try this out. They run into problems, this international force isn't quite working, and then they just resume the war. So I think Netanyahu wants to get those Israeli captives out. He'll sort of pay lip service to whatever right now, knowing that they're going to be able to wait it out. And I don't think that the agenda of a war of annihilation in Gaza is finished at all. No matter what this Trump document says, the Israel in general wants to erase Gaza as a Palestinian land and remove Palestinians from Gaza, not just Netanyahu. That is the majority opinion in Israel.

A (57:26)

And this is from your article. You quote from the plan. The precise wording is, quote, the conditions may finally be in place for a credible pathway to Palestinian self determination and statehood, which we recognize as the aspiration of the Palestinian People. So the conditions might be in place for this thing that we don't support necessarily, but we recognize that the Palestinian people do support. And then you note that previously it said Israel will not occupy or annex also the west bank, which is ominously.

B (58:06)

This is an important point just, just to let people know what you're, what you're referring to here. So previous drafts of this or what were purported to be previous drafts of this were published in Hebrew media and, and pushed widely around. And that's where, you know, most of the information about this priority yesterday came from. And in an earlier version that, that Hebrew media said was, was a draft of this, it, it said explicitly that there was going to be no annexation of the West Bank. That did not appear in the, in the 20 point plan that Trump put out. Trump himself said this some days ago that, you know, Israel's not going to annex the west bank. But yeah, that and you know, seven bucks gets you a, you know, latte in New York. I mean it's just not, it doesn't mean anything.

A (58:49)

And the last point, so on 250 lifers being released from Palestinian prisons, my understanding is that there are only about 280 currently, maybe even less.

B (59:01)

Yeah, right.

A (59:02)

So that's nearly all of them. But there's been some reporting that Israel would veto Marwan Barbuti, who is the.

B (59:11)

You know, and Ahmed Sadat. Yeah. From the pflp.

A (59:15)

Yeah.

B (59:16)

I mean, I think, I think that they're what's, what's in his 80s, right. Yeah. And is, and just the other day there was a report about how he's being abused and maltreated again. You know, they, they often will beat these guys. You know, anytime something starts to percol with a, with a potential agreement, they go in. I mean, you know, a couple months ago they just, they beat the living hell out of Marwan Barghouti, you know, who widely is viewed as someone that would be a unifying head of state of an independent Palestine and would be easily the single most popular Palestinian political figure. Israel doesn't want him out. And actually Mahmoud Abbas people we understand in previous ceasefire negotiations, some of them intervened to try to block Marwan Barghouti from getting out. And he actually is from Fatah, the party of Mahmoud Abbas. He's not a Hamas guy, but he's always been number one on Hamas's list. Two things about this. One, yes, it seems clear that they want to, that there are definitely about 10 or 12 Palestinians that Israel never wants to see walk out of any Israeli prison. Jail or torture facility. But two, it doesn't make any mention of Palestinians serving long sentences, but not life. And that always had been part of the negotiation. So it does, it seems like they're saying, okay, we'll give you 250 lifers, but we're not going to give you these dozen or so or maybe more of them that, you know, we don't want to go out. They're not going to release anybody. It seems from the framework as it was published, that's serving longer sentences short of life. And then they're saying we're going to Release or free 1700 Palestinians taken since October 7, including all women and children. And you know, first of all, why doesn't anyone ever talk about this? What is this? Why is Israel holding children? You know, like, can you look at all the attention that was focused on why did Hamas take this person or that person? Israel is hold, holding hundreds of dead bodies of Palestinians. For each Israeli body that they're going to return, Israel would give 15 Palestinian bodies. They're holding Palestinians in numbered freezers inside of Israel or in graves marked only by numbers. There are hundreds of Palestinian bodies being held by that sick society right now. You know, oh my God, look what they did with the handover ceremonies with the dead bodies. They are holding hundreds of dead Palestinians. They are holding unknown numbers of children. There are as many as 15,000 or more Palestinians held captive right now in Israel. My God, we talk about, oh, there's 48 Israelis, 20 living in 28 inside of Gaza. There are 15,000 Palestinians that jumped out.

A (61:49)

At me on the in, in this 20 point plan where it said, well, one Israeli body for 15 bodies of Palestinians. Like, wait a minute, how many, how many bodies are you hold like, holding on to and why?

B (62:03)

Yeah, but this is, you know, it drives me crazy that people don't talk about this like this. You know, Trump is constantly saying, oh, and who, who holds dead bodies? You know, he's been talking about this recently. He has these weird digressions about, you know, the hostages and most of, you know, the men. And they really want, even though it sounds weird, but they want the bodies back. Of course they want the bodies back. Think of any loved one that you've lost whose body is being, you want to put them to rest. Whether you're a religious person or not. You want, you want some peace and closure with that. Think of these, there's some of the bodies that, that Israel is holding. They've held for decades. This is sick. It's a, it's Part of a system. This isn't like they went one day and just took some people. They've been doing this for decades, and every accusation is a confession, or everything they accuse the Palestinians of, they do on an industrial scale. So, but, but no one talks about that. So when you see a line in there, including women and children. Wait a minute. What? They're holding children now? I know that. You know that. How many people in the world actually understand this, that Israel routinely holds children in military facilities, puts them through a military court system, denies them access to lawyers. It's, it's a systematic campaign of child abuse. So, you know, yeah, at the end of the day, they're going to Release something like 2000 Palestinians according to this framework. Those numbers fall pretty far short of what was being negotiated in prior agreements. So I guess what I would say in closing is is there a chance Hamas would accept this? There is. I think it's unlikely, though. But, you know, Trump has made clear three or four days, and then the genocide, you know, is going to just resume indefinitely. I don't see Hamas surrendering. I think that if you claim to be negotiating, then Hamas should have a right to assert its position. That's certainly what Qatar is saying right now. But last time they, they thought they were negotiating in good faith and reviewing a Trump proposal. Trump allowed Israel to try to assassinate them by bombing inside of the borders of Qatar, which houses U. S. Central Command, the most important strategic military asset in the Middle East. So who knows what's going to happen?

A (64:08)

My guess, and you're way more plugged in than me, but I'm curious for your take on this, is that Hamas will accept some version of this, understanding that if they say no, they're getting attacked, and if they say yes, they're still getting attacked. So might as well say yes, build the political capital. And then when Israel relaunches the attack, it's not as, it's not as if they are disarming on day one. And, and B, like you said, disarmament would require the UN to come in and dig up all of the unexploded Israel Israeli ordinance, which will take decades. So it's not as if it's even feasible that they could be disarmed. Like, it's, it's just, it's a physical impossibility.

B (64:55)

It's possible. But, but look, I mean, look, the, this is a bit in the weeds, but I think it's important. Ziad Nakala, who is the general secretary of Palestinian Islamic Jihad, is a figure that Very seldom speaks in public. So he's the head of the second largest Palestinian resistance faction and they're holding Israeli captives. He released a public statement last night denouncing this plan. Hamas is not going to make, accept a deal without the buy in of Islamic Jihad. And it's quite noteworthy that Nakala released this statement last night. The very limited number of Hamas officials that have been permitted by Qatar to speak, you know, they're almost all exclude, they're almost exclusively allowed to speak to Qatari media. Since the assassination strikes, the response has been incredibly negative to this. But they're saying we need to do consultations with other Palestinian groups. So what they're telegraphing right now is we view this as a document that would be tantamount to the surrender of the Palestinian cause of liberation. Doesn't mean that they won't accept it for some strategic reasons that you're saying. I just, I don't see it at this point. I think they're going to have to thread the needle somehow. And the risk of that is that Trump just says, okay, Netanyahu, let's, let's, let's blow the place up even further.

A (66:14)

And yeah, you can find that PIJ statement on our Twitter feed. Drop site news at, you know, at job site news posted. Yes. Yesterday evening. I also think some of it is political positioning. Nobody in any resistance faction wants to, wants to own this capitulation. So I think there's some level of trying to figure out how to, how to get there without, because, you know, for years to come we're going to be, if, if this does take some sort of effect for years to come, we'll be seeing the catastrophic results from it. Nobody and nobody's going to want to be on record as saying like this is a good thing. At the same time, they're under, like I said, like you said, like you said, just unspeakably massive pressure to end the, the acute level of suffering with the last thing I'll say famine and hitting 20% of the population.

B (67:11)

Yeah, I mean, the last thing I'll say is just share something that, you know, our, our colleague Abu Bakr Abed, you know, posted in response to this that, you know, was saying that Palestinians from Gaza should, should be heard right now. And you know, a lot of people try to claim that they're speaking, oh, the Gazans want this and the Gazans want that. Oh, the Gazans are protesting this. Oh, the Gazans want to do this. This is a very diverse society. Hamas didn't win 100% of the votes. Hamas is popular in terms of Palestinian political parties, but this is a pluralistic society with a diverse range of views and it's a highly educated society. And anyone who claims that they're, you know, characterizing the Palestinian perspective or the Palestinian from Gaza perspective is engaged in a gross misappropriation of, of the rights of Palestinians to have a diversity of opinion. So that's why I think it's so important that we have Palestinian reporters, that Palestinians be interviewed, that the Palestinian voices from across the political spectrum be heard so we don't just fall into the Israel trap of portraying Hamas as the only, you know, sort of target in all of this. All Palestinians in Gaza have been a target, and all of them deserve to have their voices heard.

A (68:32)

Yep. And they, and they very much know it too. Well. Jeremy, thank you so much for taking the time this morning to do this. And, and to repeat what I said at the top of this, we'll be moving the live stream from Tuesday morning to Thursday morning. So mark it on market on that calendar Thursday morning, 9:30am Eastern. You know, hope to, hope to expand it, you know, as we, as we continue to grow, if you haven't noticed already, we've, we've launched over the last month a new morning newsletter letter called Drop Site Daily, which I, I highly recommend. Great way to catch up on what you might have missed over the last 24 hours. Please recommend it to anybody else that you think needs to know. We launched it because the, because social media in general has become such absolute toxic trash that where once social media was a place where in general you could, you could find, you know, incremental news throughout the day, you can still do that if you follow our feeds, but couple, you know, mixed in with that is just enormous amounts of trash and just lies and propaganda and, and, and misinformation just getting pushed out there just, just to, just to make a buck from the blue check. So if, if you are reducing your, you know, social media diet, this is a way to get something a little bit nutritional. Thank you as always. If go to dropsitenews.com to become a subscriber, to become a donor. On behalf of all of my colleagues here, you know, thank you so much for the support and thank you for watching and we'll see you next time. Sam sa.