A (4:33)

Happened and what's your response to these developments?

C (4:37)

Well, you know what, what Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad and all of the other Palestinian factions, groups, leaders that have been part of these consultations did with this response to Trump was essentially take that 20 point plan that Trump and Netanyahu announced at the White House on Monday and separated it into two basic tracks. We have to remember that while Hamas is a political party that won democratic elections and would, according to public polls, still do very well, if not get more votes than any other party currently on the political scene in all of Palestine, not just in Gaza, it is just one party of many. Palestine has a diverse tapestry that includes many different political entities. And so while the media often just says Hamas, the reality is that throughout these negotiations, during the course of the genocide, Hamas and Islamic Jihad, which are the two main armed resistance factions, they control the two largest armed resistance factions that are fighting against the Israeli attempt to seize Gaza. They have been very clear that they want a unified national Palestinian response to all of these ceasefire proposals. So I think it's just important to say that while people say Hamas, we're talking about a much broader consultative process and Dr. El Arian can go through some of that, but it is not just Hamas. They consulted with everyone. So what they've done is they've broken this into two basic tracks. On the one hand, because Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad are holding the Israeli captives, because Qassam Brigades and Sariah Al Quds are the main armed forces that are fighting against the Israelis, what they're saying is, yes, we can negotiate these terms that relate to the ground reality in Gaza and the war. We can discuss the release or the handover of the Israeli captives, living and dead. We can negotiate conditions for a ceasefire or an end to the quote, unquote war, and we can negotiate the withdrawal of the occupation forces because we're fighting them. And so basically what they've done is they've reverted back to a position that they formalized on August 18th when they accepted what was called the Witkoff Framework, named for Steve Witkoff, Donald Trump's special envoy. Hamas and the resistance made significant concessions on August 18th and basically agreed to almost the entirety of what the Israelis and the Americans had been demanding for a 60 day ceasefire that ideally would have led to something longer. So they've said, we accept this basic framework as the point to negotiate from. On the other hand, they said, look, this is a sweeping declaration that will impact the very future of Palestine, of the Palestinian people. When you talk about imposing a foreign force on Gaza, when you talk about imposing a foreign body, they don't mention Tony Blair by name. But where Tony Blair would be involved with overseeing this Palestinian technocratic committee that they seemingly would allow to be, unquote, governing Gaza, what Hamas and Islamic Jihad and the other factions are saying is we don't have the mandate to negotiate just, you know, Hamas on questions that relate to all of Palestine. And so what they've tried to do is thread this needle and say, yes, we appreciate all of these efforts. We are willing to negotiate on these terms, but if you want to talk about all of these broader issues, it has to be expanded out. Now, Dr. El Arian has been very, very closely following all of this. In addition to his work as an academic and an activist, he's also the director of the center for Islam and Global affairs at Istanbul Zaim University. And Sami, I wanted to start. You're gonna have to unmute yourself there. I wanted to start by asking you to expand on this strategy. You and I have been talking in recent days and wondering what direction the negotiators were, the Palestinian negotiators were going to go in because. Because Trump and Netanyahu made this sound like an ultimatum. And Trump basically said it was more or less a take it or leave it. And if they, if they didn't take it, that Trump would fully support the Israelis, quote, unquote, doing what they have to do in Gaza, which presumably means more mass murder. War of annihilation continues. So give us some sense of the strategic thinking that went into this response, Samy, on the part of the Palestinian negotiators.

B (9:08)

First, thank you for inviting me. Well, as you pointed out correctly, the plan that Trump presented a few days ago, which, by the way, different from the plan he presented to the Arab and Muslim leaders, the latest plan, which is 20 point plan that he called it, was full of traps that the Israelis have put in. And when you look at it and try to read it, you will find that the previous negotiations that had taken place since November 2023, up until August, all of them concentrated on things that Hamas and the other groups could actually take a decision on. These are particularly with regards to the exchange of the captives and prisoners and the conditions under which the resistance has stipulated in terms of the ending of the war, the withdrawal of the troops from Gaza, the delivery of the aid, as well as the exchange of prisoners, the reconstruction, and finally now, obviously, the forced immigration at any rate. But this plan had expanded. This is expanding this to the point where stuff that has to do with the future of the Palestinian cause, how Gaza would be ruled, under what conditions and who has the keys in terms of at one point the Israeli troops would withdraw, what would be the conditions under which the withdrawal take place, all these things. Hamas has no really mandate to decide on who rules Gaza. From where came Tony Blair, the war criminal, to come and actually be in charge of Gaza and what kind of future Gaza will have. And of course, this was the Israeli response to the overwhelming support worldwide to the concept of a two state solution. So they wanted to jump over this and try another political track, something that they have been trying since 1993, since the Oslo process. The Oslo process was supposed to end in 1999 after five years of negotiations. But of course it's been going on for 32 years with no end in sight. So for them to try and see how are they going to deal with 158 countries calling for an immediate settlement, political settlement based on the two state solution, including now some major European countries. The only country that has been opposing this was the US Government. And so they came with this in order to remove the pressure that that has been mounting on Israel. Now what Hamas did is just instead of, you know, Netanyahu thought that he put Hamas in a box and with the lock and key in his pocket. Now we found that he is now in the box because Trump accepted that response, which is basically says the following. Hamas response says, number one, there are things we can decide on and we are very much open to this based on the, on Trump's plan, which is a very brilliant response. They mentioned his name, which really appeals to his ego. And then it talks about the withdrawal and the immediate exchange of the captives and prisoners. But that needs negotiations because there are a lot of details that have to be sorted out. For example, when he says everybody has to be out within 72 hours, that ignores the fact that many of the dead captives have been placed in areas that will be very difficult to pinpoint. You really need excavation equipment. You need to get people. You need obviously to stop the war so people can go out and start looking for these bodies. That's going to take perhaps days, perhaps weeks to get and of course for others also to take place. In terms of withdrawal, there are absolutely no details in the past. Most of the negotiations in the past have stalled or have failed because of the notion of how much is the Israeli withdrawal from Gaza. Is it 800 meters, 500 meters, 300 meters, and who's going to measure this? So that also needs to be worked out, needs to be negotiated, and now Trump even is going beyond that. He wants to have a peace in the region. He is coveting the Nobel Peace Prize and he thinks now he is pretty close to it. So that every notion of this, the notion that you negotiate without the bombing coming in the midst of a genocide, talking about peace in the region, all these things the Israelis are having difficulty to swallow, let alone to accept, and now it is Netanyahu inside the box, inside the cage, and he's trying to figure out what to do. I think eventually what's going to happen. If Trump, as apparently he is pushing for the stop of the bombing, stopping of the genocide and the exchange of prisoners, which probably take several weeks, that means Netanyahu is on the ropes. It means that he may have to go through elections soon. The two partners who have been holding him, Smotrich and Ben Gafir, will certainly now resign and withdraw from the government. The opposition will give him the necessary votes to finish this agreement, or at least to get the captives out. And then they will have a vote of no confidence in which we're coming to new elections. So what Trump is doing actually is something that, very surprising, but it might actually end the war if he goes on with what he said.

C (15:04)

You know, go ahead.

A (15:07)

No, no, go ahead. I was going to ask you something.

C (15:08)

So, yeah, I just, I, I wanna, I want to ask. Sammy, you know, in we, we've been here before with, with, with these deals where Hamas either comes back and, and accepts large portions of what's been demanded, but they ask for clarifications or they ask for modifications. And that's normal in a negotiation. But the Israeli and American position traditionally has been under both Biden and Trump, that the negotiation is actually just a series of ultimatums or edicts. And the Palestinian side is often just told you either accept it or you don't accept it. In this case, we have the unusual response from Trump where he is at least projecting that he accepts the thrust of what Hamas has said. I mean, maybe, you know, there's obviously details to be worked out, even according to Trump's own narrative. But just to put it in real political terms, Samy Trump lied about having good faith negotiations with the Iranians and boasted that he used it as essentially a barely or a thinly disguised covert front story to do a surprise 12 day bombing campaign against the Iranians. The last time that Hamas leaders and negotiators gathered to discuss an American proposal. Proposal was on September 9 in Doha, Qatar, when they had been given a 100 word summary of a supposed ceasefire from the Americans delivered to Hamas via mediators. And then the Israelis conducted a series of airstrikes on Hamas's offices in Doha. They failed to kill the negotiators and the leaders of Hamas, but they killed Khalil Al Haya, the political leader of Hamas. They killed his son, they injured his wife, his daughter in law and his grandchildren. And they killed several other office workers of Hamas and a Qatari security officer who was at the facility. That was the last time that Hamas was told that they were going to be deliberating a American proposal. If Hamas is agreeing or the Palestinian resistance is agreeing to give up all of the captives in a 72 hour period, let's set aside the issue of finding some of the bodies of the deceased. Let's say that Trump and the Israelis say, okay, everyone you have, give us these ones. Within 72 hours, they release them. The agreement says that they don't have to release any Palestinians until after all of the Israelis are out. What would be to stop the Israelis and Trump from saying, okay, you gave us the captives, you're terrorists. We did this because we wanted to get the captives out. We're not releasing any Palestinians and we're just going to continue forward with the genocide. What's, what's to prevent that? I mean, it seems like the Palestinians are taking a very big gamble. Even if Trump and Israel agree to separate these tracks and make a deal according to what Hamas laid out, which is we can negotiate this because we're the armed forces fighting it, it just seems like a ripe opportunity for history to repeat itself. Trump has lied repeatedly. The Iran Alexander situation, that happened. The American Israeli soldier who back in May, Trump had direct negotiations with Hamas. They make an agreement that as a good faith gesture, their Palestinian resistance is going to hand over this dual citizen of the United States and Israel who was captured as a soldier on October 7th, they get him out and then the US doesn't do what they promised, which was to lift the full spectrum blockade and allow aid back into Gaza, and that Trump was going to call for a permanent ceasefire and the immediate resumption of negotiations. None of that happened. So why should the Palestinians take such an enormous gamble in releasing the only leverage that they have within 72 hours with a White House and an administration in Tel Aviv, that both are systematically engaged in a game of deception not only against the Palestinians, but against the entire region? You yourself just Cited that they lied to the Arab and Muslim countries. They showed them one draft of this agreement and then Ron Dermer was Witkoff, Jared Kushner, Netanyahu and Trump sit there and they edit the whole thing. So it just seems to me like the Palestinians are saying, okay, we'll do this. And if they give up all the captives, then their leverage is entirely gone.

B (19:26)

You're right, it's a risk. And I think that risk has been taken with their eyes wide open. Let's remember that what options they had. They had the option between committing suicide or being killed or fighting and with the threat of being murdered. So there was very little option because they had to fight to the end or they could commit suicide by accepting every aspect of the plan. Now, I can't get into Trump's head and see whether he misunderstood the response or whether he is trying to jump over the response and claim that they have accepted his plan, because that's not what's happening here. They accepted part of the plan, the part that deals with the things that they can actually negotiate on, that they have a mandate on, that they can make a decision on all these things. They have been under negotiations, as I said, from early on. Now, Trump accepted this and considered it acceptable to him. He's celebrating it. He actually posted it on his own account, including the fact that and he calls Hamas now wants peace. So there is a complete change of tone. Even the word genocide appears in that post, which I'm sure is displeasing to the Zionist, whether in the Zionist regime or outside. So we're seeing a different attitude now is could that be deceptive step on his part that he's trying just to get to Lalhama so that they can release the captives within the 72 hour period. Or this is something that is deeper because he wants to actually impose his notion of what a peace plan would be, at least a normalization deal with Saudi Arabia and that no one can really know what he has in mind. But certainly he's not stupid. I don't think he misunderstood what Hamas said. I think he jumped on the opportunity because it did have some positive note at the beginning that they agree on the man terms, they mention his name. I think that also was fading somehow. The question now is what are the details now for the first time, there will be negotiations without, if they agree, if he actually pressures Netanyahu and the Israeli government, there will be negotiations taking place without the bombing, the Israeli bombing on the heads of Gazans, if that takes place, because that's what he's calling for. He's calling for Israel to immediately stop the bombing. Could he change his mind tomorrow? Of course he can. That's Trump. But if that happens, that's a good sign. Then you need to go to the specifics about negotiations, the resistance. The statement says that they want to negotiate the details they have not committed, that they're going to accept everything he has in that this is not a take it or leave it option. His response did not say that. Now I consider Hamas accepting my proposal and we're going to go over it step by step. He did say that there will be negotiations. He realizes that the mediators, the Qataris, the Egyptians and the other participants, the Turks and others, they understand that whatever Trump presented was not detailed enough so that you can have an action plan, that this is basically a framework. That framework, as I said, has two parts. The part that deals with the captives and with the exchange of prisoners also has some other things like the withdrawal. Now, these withdrawal, in the past agreements had specifics. In other words, specifics concerning how far would the Israeli troops would be from the border between Gaza and the 1948 areas where Israel, what's called Israel proper. So all these things have to be worked out. I mean, you can't just do these things without having to negotiate them. He accepted that notion. So now we are in the phase where he will have to send his negotiators. If the Israelis accept to be part, they will probably send their negotiators. The mediators would be there. I don't believe that would also be under a threat in which he says take it or leave it, because that will probably undo what he is trying to accomplish. He said in his tweet in his post, rather that there is a historic opportunity for a larger picture which is basically, he's calling it peace, but I don't think he means peace in terms of having self determination or a Palestinian state. He's talking about some sort of a settlement for the Palestinians. But more importantly in his mind that there will be massive amount of reconstruction funds in which he would be the chairman of the board to decide on these funds. But more importantly for him that there could be a wider range of countries, particularly Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and Indonesia, three countries that participated with him last week in which they can join the Abraham Accords. That's, I think what's on his mind and that's contrary to what in Israel's interests as they perceive it. This government as well as the stability of this government, I think this government is not going to be stable for long. I don't see how Netanyahu can get himself out of this. I'm unless he's able to have Trump change his mind. If that doesn't happen, he has to stop this for sure. And now there is a momentum. Let's remember that we have Israeli opposition that welcomed it. We have now international leaders who have welcomed this. The president of France, the Prime Minister of England, the prime Minister of Italy, the Secretary General of the United nations, of course, all the Arab countries. Now we have a momentum that going in this grain. So Israel now is back to be totally isolated and Netanyahu will find it extremely difficult, particularly now that there is a silver lining about the release of the Israeli captives. So that would also bring upon him pressure from the not only from the families of the captives, but probably from society at large. Once he engages in this, he's trying to again to find out another trick, another gimmick, another which he can try to impose his will and make Trump change his mind. So all along, just to summarize, all along this thing means right now, what it means is that there is a possibility, a possibility if Trump ignores his part of the plan, that he is trying to reconfigure Gaza as appointing another High commissioner like we had in Herbert Samuel back a century ago when Palestine came under the mandate of the British, he's trying to put another British to be the High Commissioner of Palestine. If he ignores that part and start working within the framework of the Egyptian proposal, which means that Hamas has already pledged it will not be part of the ruling party for Gaza. It is willing to sign on long term troops even up to 20, 25 years. It is not going to rebuild its arms, but it's not going to disarm either. So it will have what it'll have and that would be the end of this conflict. Israelis will withdraw, even as in phased withdrawal. And there could be some stabilization force, provided that it will be up to the Palestinians. Palestinians will have agency in Gaza. They're not going to have a foreign tutelage at all. So within that framework, we can reach idim. In which case Trump can claim that he brought this deal to fruition and then he can push for an Abrahamic accord with Saudi Arabia and others. But if Netanyahu is unable to hold his coalition, then we have to go to another elections that would delay everything will probably take months before we hold elections and get a governing coalition. We're talking about at least three to six months for that to happen. Meanwhile, if there are no more bombings and no more genocide in Gaza. And you allow Gazans actually to some relief. I think it will be extremely difficult for the Israelis to resume their genocide.

A (28:00)

Well, President Trump just issued a televised address from the Oval Office, so we're going to play that right now and we'll discuss what he said.

D (28:11)

I want to thank the countries that helped me put this together. Qatar, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan, and so many others. So many people fought so hard. This is a big day. We'll see how it all turns out. We have to get the final word down in concrete. Very importantly, I look forward to having the hostages come home to their parents and having some of the hostages, unfortunately, you know, the condition they're in, come home likewise to their parents, because their parents wanted them just as much as though that young man or young woman were alive. So I just want to let you know that this is a very special day, maybe unprecedented in many ways. It is unprecedented. But thank you all. And thank you all to those great countries that helped. We were given a tremendous amount of help. Everybody was unified in wanting this war to end and seeing peace in the Middle east. And we're very close to achieving that. Thank you all and everybody will be treated fairly.

A (29:23)

Okay, so that was President Trump speaking from the Oval Office just moments ago, actually. Very interesting the way he's framing this and characterizing it as a done deal that they've reached some sort of massive milestone. He's calling it unprecedented. I'd like to get a reaction from both of you. Jeremy, what do you think of what he said? But, and also this other point, you know, we're talking a lot about the details and what Hamas as a resistance movement can negotiate and is in its mandate to negotiate the exchange of captives. But a big part of this 20 point plan is it ties aid and, and, and withdrawal of Israeli troops to demilitarization of the resistance. And that's not something they addressed whatsoever in their statement. So could you talk about that and maybe about also how Trump is framing all of this.

C (30:14)

I mean, with, with the big caveat that I think we, we really have to always bring up that it is quite possible that there's a, another deception at play. And you, you, you know, both Trump and Netanyahu have made clear that the option for intensifying the genocide is on the table. So if we accept that, that is, you know, that's the point that always has to sort of be remembered. Right now, Israel is not going to like what they're hearing from Donald Trump right now. And you Know what Sammy is saying, I think there's a lot of truth to it. I mean, we have to remember too, Trump and his family, Jared Kushner and also Witkoff's family, they have big business going on in the Gulf. You know, Jared Kushner's, you know, investment firm is bankrolled to the tune of billions of dollars by Saudi Arabia, Qatar, the United Arab Emirates. He has all kinds of business projects going on in Israel. There were these reports about Steve Witkoff's son also trying to cash in on a potential deal that's going to happen. If you read the, you know, the 20 point plan, you know, there's a, there's a whole neoliberal economic agenda at play here. And that is reminiscent of the Baghdad year zero thinking that went on in the neocon Bush, Cheney White House. You know, there's big money involved here. So, you know, I think, I do think that the, the, one of the wild cards here is that Trump views this as very profitable. In fact, when, when Trump and Netanyahu appeared at the White House on Monday, Trump multiple times kept speaking directly to Ron Dermer, know, Netanyahu's top political advisor. And at one point, Trump went on this digression where he offered a factually, wildly erroneous version of the history of Gaza and said that the Israelis gave it to them. And, and, and, but then he said, you know, it's the most magnificent piece of real estate in the Middle east, talking about the oceanfront property of the, of the Gaza Strip. So there is one level on which I do think there is a genuine desire on the part of Trump to make a lot of money off of whatever he thinks is going to come next in Gaza. And that ironically, or not ironically, just factually, may be the single biggest motivating factor here and why Trump would want to move on to this next phase. But the pitfall with this, and I think it's a very dangerous moment we're in, is that Trump is really obsessing about the Israeli captives and wanting them out, like, immediately and in one batch. And as Sammy was saying, there's a lot of technical complexities to negotiating this and the Palestinians are going to need guarantees and the Palestinian prisoners and captives held by Israel are going to need to be released. So, you know, Trump is claiming false things, that he had all of these Arab and Muslim countries that 100% supported him. That's not true. But he's saying, yes, that's what happened. He, he presumably did read the nuance of what Hamas said or at least was briefed on it. So he knows that they didn't say, oh, we also accept everything whole cloth here. If, if what happens now is that Trump recognizes that ha. Hamas is going to negotiate with him, that the Palestinians are going to negotiate, that they continue to kind of fluff his ego in the process. If that buys time where the bombs stop falling on Gaza, where aid starts to come in and food starts to come in, everyone will think that that's a good thing. You know, the whole, the whole time there should have been a total cessation of the bombing and actual negotiations. So if whatever egotistical journey Trump is on right now, or motivated by thinking he's going to do a backdoor version of his Gaza, you, you know, Middle East Riviera is what's driving it. It doesn't matter what's driving it right now if the bombs stop and there's actual negotiation where Palestinians are allowed to speak for themselves. So I think it's riddled with danger, it's riddled with pitfalls. You can't trust Trump, Netanyahu. If Trump is really intent on stopping the bombing and going into serious negotiations, that's bad news for Netanyahu. But again, I just reiterate, we can't trust Trump. We, we're hoping that this leads to actual negotiations and a cessation of the genocide and the Israeli bombing of Gaza. But I think we have to be very cautious in celebrating this right now or thinking that it's. It's the end, it's the beginning of a different kind of war. Ideally, it's a diplomatic war that involves Palestinians being able to speak for themselves.

A (34:54)

And Dr. Samuel, did you think of Trump and, you know, saying, at the end, everyone will be treated fairly?

B (35:00)

It's interesting because he did not thank Israel, he was thanking the other parties. Didn't bring Israel to this equation at all. But also, let's remember that he's unpredictable. I mean, he, at least on four different occasions, he surprised the Israelis. On the Houthis, he just withdrew without telling them. On the issue of Iran, he says, according to him, that he told Netanyahu to have the planes going back instead of bombing. He wanted to stop this war. On the issue of Syria, at one point, he was sitting. Netanyahu was sitting next to him, and he started telling him that he needs to get in negotiations with the Turks. He can't just try to instigate problems with them. And then on the issue of the apology to Qatar, so he brings these things, and I think Jeremy is correct. I mean, there could actually be some motivation, personal stake here at play, but also could be that some people, perhaps wise people, are talking to him and said, this is taking us into a. In the, in the abyss. That this. If you look at, for instance, for example, some of these MAGA figures, what they have been saying about this. I mean, recently there was this interview between Tucker Carlson and Jeff Sachs, but before that, about half an hour of monologue of Tucker Carlson, who took the Israeli narrative apart completely, and within 24 hours, over a million views. I mean, this is going to eventually impact his base. So if he doesn't put a stop to this and he goes after Netanyahu with this genocide and with all these wars, it's going to actually eat out from his popularity, from his program, from his agenda. I don't think he views that as positive. He gave Netanyahu all the time he needed. Last summer, during the campaign, he kept telling him, finish the job. Netanyahu saying, I'm working on it. Then they have this lull between January and March. He gets a lot of the hostages back. And then Netanyahu asked for more time. And then it's been now over six months and he hasn't. He's not even close to finish the job. And now he sees that this is, you know, blowing back. There is a blowback here. And today there was also a very significant phone call between the Turkish president and Trump. And I think he leaned on him a lot. I don't know what went on. We don't know exactly what went on. But the fact that the Turkish president, which I think he knew what the response would be, probably prepared Trump to what's coming, and that might have played a role. So I don't think Trump is abandoning the Zionist regime, but I think he's had enough and he's trying to change course, at least from the standpoint of having some sort of a victory. And to him, victory would be the release of the captives, which I think is going to come. The trick right now is whether he can actually pressure the Israelis to stop permanently, not just for a few days and then resume, because now he's before the whole world. I'm sure he heard from dozens and dozens of countries that enough is enough, and that if this continues, there will be a major rupture, not just in the Middle east, but probably worldwide. Because right now you have these strikes coming in, in Europe, in Italy and in other parts of the world. People are fed up with this. And also I think he probably cares about the image and reputation of the Zionist regime, the Zionist state. And he's trying to see what he can do to salvage the situation. And this is actually have no strategic interest. I'm sure he's heard that a lot. It is the Zionist ideologues that are driving the train right now, some in the Zionist state, such as Netanyahu, Smotrich and Ben gvir, and some even within the American government, like this, a American Ambassador Huckaby. And I think he's seen enough now, how that translates again, Trump being Trump, he completely reverses himself without any shame. He would just come back and says, oh, they did not follow. You know, I thought that they were going to accept every single point I had. Now they're saying no. You know, I tell Netanyahu, go and finish the job. He could do that. And as Jeremy says, he's done it in the past. But what does that mean? I mean, it means that the resistance will continue. That's where we are today, where we were yesterday. So they will continue. Now, most experts would tell you that to finish off or to bring the end of an insurgent group or resistant movement, it takes years, not months. If Israel was capable of finishing off the resistance, Hamas and Islamic Jihad and others in the last two years, they would have done that. I mean, there is nothing that they spared short of a nuclear bomb. They tried everything in the book, including a policy of starvation. It was all targeting the civilians to put pressure on the resistance more than the resistance itself. But I think the whole world now is fed up and they want to end this. And I think Trump is trying to get credit, and certainly he would get credit if this happens, and then he can go and boast that he wants or has won the Nobel Peace Prize. The real question right now, and I'm going to end with this, the real question right now is what would be the details? Would he accept the fact that there are aspects in which Hamas cannot negotiate and he should not push Hamas to give an opinion, because they can't? I think he's accepted that by praising Hamas's response. The next question is under what conditions would the captives be released? Now, in terms of Hamas and the Palestinians, there are certain conditions. I don't think there will be any problem about the aid. So that's going. There will probably be a cessation of hostilities, cessation of the war. The question whether this is going to be permanent or temporary, that's open. But I think he can impose on Israel to make it permanent. So that's two conditions out of the Five, the rehabilitation could actually come over time. That leaves the exchange of prisoners. The formula he has in the, in the, in the 20 point plan, I think for the most part is acceptable to the resistance. I think there will be another. There has to be a negotiation. 250 life sentences versus the living captives is acceptable. They would be pushing for those who have 15 or 25 sentences. So that's negotiable. It could be worked on. And that leaves one point and one point only. That would be the sticking point, which is withdrawal. Now, the withdrawal in terms of the resistance, they want complete withdrawal of the Israeli troops from Gaza. The Israelis do not want to do that. There is another contentious issue on the Philadelphia corridor between Egypt and Israel. And in that case, we're saying that there is another factor here because that also controls the Rafah crossing. That means that the free movement of goods and people through that is going to be controlled by Israel. That would not be acceptable over time. And that would mean it's another leverage that the Arab and Muslim countries could probably use with Trump since they are bankrolling this whole situation. So I think this would be the most important sticking point if Trump is sincere of what he said today.

C (43:01)

But you know, Sammy, I mean there, there's, I just want to remind people of two aspects of this. One relates to Trump's 20 point plan. And then the other, I'm glad you brought up the Philadelphia corridor, relates to the framework that Hamas officially agreed to on August 18th because there are aspects of that. That was a 13 point plan that, that contemplated a 60 day initial ceasefire where half of the Israeli captives, living and dead, would be released and then a large number of Palestinian captives and the bodies of Palestinians held by Israel would be returned to Palestinian families. But in, in what Hamas agreed to on August 18, they made a lot of concessions. And you know, maps, as you know, Sami, are a big part of these negotiations on the question of withdrawal. And just for people that don't follow this at the granular level that, that, that you may, Sami, Israel put forward maps through throughout the course of these negotiations that would have allowed Israeli forces to remain entrenched inside of Palestinian territory in Gaza quite deeply. And there was, and they tried to insist that their so called buffer zone would, would dig very deep into Palestinian territory and cut off some key axis roads that Palestinians use to travel from north to south and east to west and elsewhere. So there was a back and forth on these maps and the Palestinian side eventually agreed to a much deeper presence of that buffer zone than they originally wanted. That was one of the concessions that they made. Another one of the concessions they made. And this is not about the 20 point plan. This was the last agreement that Hamas condoned or accepted. And then the Israelis refused to respond. And then they tried to assassinate the negotiators. And then, then we had ended up where we are right now. But the other one regarded Philadelphia always. The resistance has insisted on a timeline for when Israeli troops are going to withdraw from where. So they'll, on the maps, they'll say, okay, this area of the north of Gaza. On Day X, the Israeli troops are going to pull back to this position. On Day Y, they're going to pull back to this position. And they did this throughout the, the entirety of the Gaza Strip. On the issue of the Philadelphia corridor, they wanted them initially out by, by the 50th day of the ceasefire agreement, and they dropped that specific demand for this kind of timeline on Philadelphia. And you know, I was told that that in part what happened was that the Egyptians said that they would deal with some of those issues on a bilateral basis because they have their own treaties and agreements and security arrangements with Israel. That, that was part of what was told to the Palestinian resistance. But if you look at, so that all was nailed out, out and had much more detail than this 20 point plan. If you look at the 20 point plan, the map that Trump's people distributed when he and Netanyahu were at the White House looks very much like an earlier map that the Israelis had put in place. And the withdrawals happen in two. Sorry, in three phases. There's the initial withdrawal of Israeli forces right away to prepare for the Israeli captives to be handed over. That's the first withdrawal phase. Then there's a, a second withdrawal phase that has to do with an international force deploying in Gaza and taking over territory that the Israeli occupation forces were in control of. And once it's certified that an international and Arab force takes control of them, then the Israelis will pull back to that line. And then that third line is the buffer zone. And there's a nebulous mention of when it's certified that Gaza no longer represents a terror threat to the, to, to Israel. So the, the 20 point plan has baked into it basically indefinite Israeli military presence inside of Gaza. So that, that's one part. The other thing you mentioned, aid, the issue of aid, on the one hand, there was a concession of sorts handed to the Palestinian side and to the Arab and Muslim countries that were involved in discussions with Trump on the 20 point plan. But what they've done is they've, they've said that the aid is going to be distributed in areas that have, that have been demilitarized. And, you know, and it says that if Hamas is not, you know, accepting it or not implementing it, that they're going to do the aid in areas that the Israelis either control or have handed over to an international force. And they're talking about demilitarization being linked, disarmament being linked to the aid. So I would say this is also a massive sticking point. There is one positive in the, in the 20 point plan because it does use the term decommissioning, which is a term that was used, for instance, in the Troubles in the north of Ireland, you know, in the negotiations between the IRA and the British colonialists. So in a sense, it's sort of recognizing in, in one way the Palestinians as a legitimate national resistance movement. But on the other hand, Israel has this maximalist demand that they be entirely demilitarized as a condition for withdrawal and as a condition in some cases for aid. So the Palestinians have said quite clearly, and even their response today, you know, has a tip of the hat toward this, that demilitarization of Hamas or Islamic Jihad or the resistance must be linked to the establishment of a Palestinian state that has an army capable of defending itself. So in my mind, I would add to what you said, Samy, and this is the point that I'm getting at, that when we, when we ask what is Trump going to do in the face of Israel's objections to moving forward in this manner, accepting that Hamas has a right to negotiate or that the Palestinians have a right to negotiate, if it's going to mean that there is, that Netanyahu doesn't get his way and that Hamas and Islamic Jihad don't hand over all of their weapons, I think that also is going to be a massive sticking point. And Hamas kind of, you know, circumvented this a bit in their response.

B (49:06)

Sure. I mean, this is, as I said, one of the, the risks the resistance is taking. But that is not going to come, you know, immediately. That's going to take some time. And we will soon see in the next few days what kind of negotiations take place because all these lines overdraw. Let's remember also that Israel is in violation of the Egyptian Israeli peace treaty. That peace treaty calls for four phases or four areas, A, B, C and D. The D area is actually inside the Palestinian part and it calls for a non presence of Israeli troops up to three kilometers. That is within the Philadelphia corridor. So they are in violation of that. And that's why the Egyptians said they would like to deal with it in the context of that agreement. But nevertheless, if Trump opts to go back now and to play these gimmicks that Netanyahu would like to play, which is to come and deal with these small points about how far the Israeli troops would be and whether he would allow them to resume a genocide again against the Palestinians, I think there's be a huge backlash. Yes, that backlash may not stop the genocide. But let's ask ourselves, what is the horizon? And I think we're dealing with now a presidency that is incapable of actually achieving any results in the foreign policy. Despite his claim of stopping seven wars, actually, he's done very little on that score. And if he's capable of stopping and shutting down this genocide and forcing Israel to withdraw from Gaza in exchange for these prisoners, then certainly that would be an accomplishment that no one else has been able to do, despite the fact that the United States has been a partner and complicit partner in this. But if it's capable to do it, that would be good. That would be a win despite all the sacrifices, because the Israelis have not been able to force or achieve what they have called total or absolute victory. That would be a setback for the settlement or the settlers who are trying to impose their will. And of course, it will be also a win for the whole world that stood and condemning this genocide. And there will be a day of reckoning for all those who have been part of this, whether it is at the level of the International Court of Justice, which will have to rule in genocide. And it will be a plot, it will be a condemnation for history, that it will never be reversed. And would also be at the level of the International Criminal Court in which Netanyahu will forever be a wanted indicted war criminal. And who knows what else would be coming their ways as well. The Israelis cannot escape the fact that what they've done in Gaza is equal to what the Nazis were doing to the Jewish communities during World War II. With the notable difference during the Holocaust, many people were not aware of it. Most people found out about the Holocaust after it was done and what they were horrified. But in terms of what the Israelis are doing inside of Gaza, this is happening before the whole world. 24,7 stream live in every screen. And that gives them no excuse whatsoever to claim ignorance. And that means a lot of people will be condemned in history for their complicitous behavior. And I think over time that's going to impact the level of support that Israel has, not only worldwide, but particularly inside the United States. And that would be a huge loss as well. So let's hope that we're coming close to the end of this genocide, of this phase, that the Palestinians will get some reprieve. I think it's also important to note that he is no longer talking about Rivera. He's no longer talking about driving out the Palestinians out of Gaza or looking for countries or paying people $5,000 to leave their homes. I think he's seen from the resilience of the Palestinian people, from the steadfastness of the Palestinian people, that they are not going anywhere, that they insist to stay on their land despite all these sacrifices. And also he is saying the opportunities, economic opportunities, that he thinks he can gain from putting all this together, I think we might be towards the end of the road, but I keep in mind that he has also been deceptive, that he has used lies and deceits and he cannot be trusted. And therefore, people have to keep that in mind as well.

A (54:17)

Well, certainly the next few days are going to be pivotal and we're going to be reporting on all of this, speaking to more sources from the Palestinian resistance and others. You know, just before we went, we started this interview, this broadcast, I was messaging with someone in Gaza City, Hoda Skaik, who's a writer and a journalist, one of the few people who's still there. And, you know, she said I was asking what she thought about Hamas's response and the developments in Trump's response. And she, you know, she sent me a couple of voice notes of bombs falling. And then she said, if this doesn't end, Gaza City won't exist and we'll all be killed. So I think for the bombs to stop in the immediate, immediately is is what needs to happen. And then negotiations can go on. But we'll continue to be covering this. I want to thank you very much, Professor Samuel Arianna, prominent Palestinian academic and scholar, director of the center for Islam and Global affairs at Istanbul Zaim University, and of course, my colleague Jeremy Scahill, very closely following these developments. You can check out everything@dropsitenews.com and follow us on Twitter where we have an incredible social media team which do breaking updates. I'm Shif Abdul Kuddus. Thanks for joining us. It.