Comfortable Inside

Summary

Ear Hustle: "Comfortable Inside" – A Deep Dive into Prison Life and Institutionalization

Release Date: September 4, 2024

Introduction

In the "Comfortable Inside" episode of Ear Hustle, hosts Earlonne Woods and Nigel Poor explore the nuanced concept of comfort within the prison environment. This episode delves into whether inmates find solace in the structured confines of prison life compared to the uncertainties outside. Through candid conversations with both male and female inmates, the hosts uncover layers of institutionalization, personal adaptation, and the psychological impacts of incarceration.

Exploring Comfort and Institutionalization

The episode opens with Earlonne and Nigel introducing the central theme: the paradox of finding comfort inside prison. They question whether prisoners genuinely feel at ease or if they are merely institutionalized—having adapted to repetitive routines out of necessity rather than contentment.

Male Inmates’ Perspectives

1. Vincent O'Bannon (Timestamp: 05:00 – 06:20)

   Vincent shares his long history with the prison system, expressing a complex relationship with incarceration. Despite feeling sadness over leaving family behind, he admits, "I feel more comfortable in here than on the streets" (05:16). Vincent grapples with the idea that prison offers a sense of stability he lacks outside, where challenges like gangs, drugs, and unemployment loom large.

2. Patrick Gonzalez (Timestamp: 12:24 – 13:53)

   Patrick, serving a lengthy sentence, reflects on his readiness for release. He acknowledges the ease of prison life compared to the outside, stating, "I feel I get everything, even insurance. I had my heart attack last year, and... I felt they were looking out for me" (12:52). His concerns about reintegration highlight the psychological barriers inmates face upon release.

3. Tom Wynn (Timestamp: 14:05 – 22:25)

   Tom provides a unique perspective, noting how prison life freed him from societal pressures such as rent and medical bills. He humorously remarks, "Prison is like, you know, just the full manifestation of avoiding, you know, bureaucratic paperwork" (14:17). Tom’s adaptation underscores how routine can provide a semblance of security, leading him to rate his institutionalization at a high level (21:46).

4. Robert Bellfield (Timestamp: 22:53 – 23:21)

   Robert shares his survival-driven mindset, explaining, "I'm disgusted with it" when discussing comfort in prison (23:00). His focus remains on survival rather than comfort, embodying the struggle between adapting to prison life and yearning for a better existence outside.

Institutionalization vs. Genuine Comfort

The hosts and inmates engage in a thoughtful debate on whether being "comfortable" equates to genuine contentment or merely institutionalization. Earlonne muses, "if being institutionalized means you're just doing a routine every day, then that means even on the streets you could be institutionalized" (23:36). This perspective broadens the conversation, suggesting that institutionalization is not confined to prison walls but can permeate everyday life.

Women’s Voices: Insights from Central California Women's Facility

Transitioning to the Central California Women's Facility (CCWF), the episode features interviews with female inmates, offering a parallel yet distinct viewpoint on comfort and institutionalization.

1. Jody at CCWF (Timestamp: 32:24 – 33:30)

   Jody reflects on her lifelong incarceration, expressing feelings of overwhelm regarding the modern outside world. She states, "I have to be locked up. The system's comfortable for me" (38:31). Jody’s narrative highlights how prolonged confinement can make prison seemingly preferable to the chaos perceived outside.

2. Reese’s Transformative Experience (Timestamp: 36:16 – 41:30)

   Reese narrates a poignant story where she uses singing to calm a distressed inmate. She recounts, "We sang the ABCs together... he was very much a different" (41:07). This moment underscores the therapeutic potential of personal talents and human connection within the prison setting. Earlonne commends the officer who facilitated this peaceful interaction, emphasizing the positive interventions that can arise even in restrictive environments.

3. Latoya Jenkins (Timestamp: 46:02 – 48:07)

   Latoya shares her journey as a dog trainer within prison, illustrating how structured activities can provide purpose and a sense of normalcy. Her role in training service dogs not only aids her personal growth but also offers therapeutic benefits to both the dogs and her fellow inmates.

Key Themes and Takeaways

• Loneliness and Support Systems: Vincent poignantly remarks, "I always been lonely, so I just stick to what I do and just don't care anymore" (06:27). The pervasive loneliness within prisons drives many inmates to seek comfort in predictable routines or personal pursuits.

• Routine vs. Growth: The discussion distinguishes between merely following a routine (institutionalization) and engaging in meaningful activities that promote personal growth. Tom’s focus on academic work serves as an example of how inmates can find purpose beyond the monotony of prison life.

• Adaptation and Resilience: Both male and female inmates demonstrate varying degrees of adaptation to prison life. While some, like Reese, find ways to maintain their identities and talents, others struggle with the psychological toll of long-term incarceration.

• Perception of the Outside World: Inmates often perceive life outside as fraught with dangers and uncertainties, making the structured environment of prison appear deceptively comforting.

Conclusion

"Comfortable Inside" provides a profound exploration of what it means to find comfort within prison walls. Through intimate interviews and reflective discussions, Ear Hustle sheds light on the complexities of institutionalization and the human need for stability and purpose. This episode challenges listeners to reconsider preconceived notions about prison life, emphasizing that comfort in such settings is a multifaceted issue intertwined with personal history, mental health, and societal pressures.

Notable Quotes

• Vincent O'Bannon (05:16): "I feel more comfortable in here than on the streets."

• Patrick Gonzalez (12:57): "I feel I have more love here than I do out there."

• Tom Wynn (14:17): "Prison is like, you know, just the full manifestation of avoiding, you know, bureaucratic paperwork."

• Reese (41:07): "We sang the ABCs together... he was very much a different."

These quotes encapsulate the core themes of the episode, illustrating the varied experiences and sentiments of those living within the prison system.

Transcript

[Earlonne Woods]

Hey, listeners. We are cooking up something really fun for next season, and we need your help.

[Nigel Poor]

You might remember that for the last couple seasons, Earlonne and I have been producing mystery episodes.

[Earlonne Woods]

That's when me and Nige each come up with a story idea, and we work on it in secret until we reveal it to each other in the studio when we're recording narration.

[Nigel Poor]

And I love doing these. It's so much fun to surprise each other, and it gives us the opportunity to each explore a subject that intrigues us.

[Earlonne Woods]

This season, we're adding a twist, and that's where you come in.

[Nigel Poor]

Is there a story you've always wanted to hear on Ear Hustle, A topic you wished one of us would explore? Well, here's your chance to shape an upcoming episode.

[Earlonne Woods]

All you gotta do is email us an idea. It could be something really specific, like you wanna hear a story about someone who had to lose a lot of weight in prison?

[Nigel Poor]

Or it can be more abstract, like, what do people think about when they first wake up in prison? Maybe even on their first day in prison. And remember, it's a story idea for Earlonne and a story idea for me. So different ideas.

[Earlonne Woods]

If your idea is selected, you will be invited to join us via Zoom and be the third host when we record narration in the studio.

[Nigel Poor]

This is going to be great, and it's also going to give us a chance to do something really meaningful with our listeners.

[Earlonne Woods]

So send your idea to inforearhustlesq.com and the deadline is January 15th.

[Nigel Poor]

That's infoearhustlesq.com by January 15th. And I cannot wait to find out what my story idea is gonna be.

[Earlonne Woods]

I know what I'm gonna get.

[Nigel Poor]

No, you don't.

[Earlonne Woods]

It's gonna be gang related. Why?

[Nigel Poor]

Shh. No hands.

[Earlonne Woods]

My name is Alice woods.

[Alice Woods]

And I'm Earlonne's mother.

[Earlonne Woods]

This episode of Ear Hustle contains language and content that may not be suitable for all listeners. Discretion is advised.

[Nigel Poor]

There are a lot of people out here today.

[Earlonne Woods]

My name is Vincent O'Bannon.

[Nigel Poor]

Vincent, what's going on out here today?

[Earlonne Woods]

Today they're having the staff and incarcerated residents. Baseball game, softball game, rather.

[Vincent O'Bannon]

Softball game.

[Nigel Poor]

Yes. There are so many people out here today.

[Earlonne Woods]

Yes, there are the wardens out here. We have captains, lieutenants, sergeants, the PIO medical staff, office staff, and of course, the residents.

[Nigel Poor]

Oh, look at the CEO dancing. Oh, my God. I can't believe they're doing that on the yard.

[Tom]

New generation, I guess.

[Nigel Poor]

I'm a little shocked.

[Earlonne Woods]

Whoa.

[Nigel Poor]

Okay. This was a very new Kind of vibe on the yard that day.

[Earlonne Woods]

Yeah, that's the California model in action.

[Nigel Poor]

We should probably explain what you mean.

[Earlonne Woods]

All right. The California motto is this new plan or this new idea put forward by California Governor Gavin Newsom. And the idea is to make prisons a little more like the outside world. So when, you know, individuals get ready to parole, you know they can have a successful transition.

[Nigel Poor]

Right. I think they're trying to make life inside prison maybe mirror just a little bit of life outside. Sort of start thinking about making prison Earl. And I can't believe I'm saying this, comfortable or normal, which are two words you just don't really put together with the idea of prison.

[Earlonne Woods]

So now you got stuff like incarcerated guys and CO s playing pickleball together.

[Nigel Poor]

And CO s dancing.

[Earlonne Woods]

I mean that type of shit would have never happened when I was inside. But the idea of being comfortable in prison is very controversial.

[Nigel Poor]

Definitely. And you know what? I bet us even saying it is going to get the ire up of some people.

[Earlonne Woods]

Well, it may, but that's what make it a good topic for the first episode of our new season, season 14. Yep. It's always good to start the season off with something that's a little provocative.

[Nigel Poor]

I love it.

[Earlonne Woods]

Hi, I'm Earlonne Woods.

[Nigel Poor]

I'm Nigel Poor. And this is ear hustle from PRX's Radiotopia.

[Earlonne Woods]

I think we started getting interested in this idea about a year ago when we were working on that 12 hours on the Yard episode.

[Nigel Poor]

Right. That was the episode where we spent basically sunup to sundown out on the San Quentin yard just to experience what happens in a full day there.

[Earlonne Woods]

Right. And that's when we ran into that one guy who had just arrived at San Quentin.

[Vincent O'Bannon]

So how you guys doing?

[Nigel Poor]

Good. Wait, so is this your first time in prison?

[Vincent O'Bannon]

Nah, this is like my eighth night time.

[Nigel Poor]

Eighth or ninth time?

[Vincent O'Bannon]

Yeah. Is it your first time in San Quentin? Yeah, my first time in San Quentin. It's lovely though.

[Earlonne Woods]

Wait, wait, wait, wait. Come back here.

[Nigel Poor]

Come back here.

[Earlonne Woods]

Is it recidivist or you violating or what?

[Vincent O'Bannon]

Institutionalized. I feel more comfortable in here than on the streets, you know, so I stake committing crimes, you know, like highspeed chases, stuff like that. And I don't know, I just feel more comfortable in prison than out of prison. Cuz I've always done time since, since I was a kid. You know, I started off in juvenile hall, then the Ranches county jail and now prison. And I just can't stop, you know.

[Nigel Poor]

You're saying you'd rather Be here.

[Vincent O'Bannon]

I'm just used to it, I guess. What do you think it would take for you to not feel like that? I don't know. Some kind of coping skills. Something that would make me understand that outside is better and something in here is a lot worse.

[Nigel Poor]

Wait, so you don't feel sad when you come back?

[Vincent O'Bannon]

I mean, I do because I leave my family and everyone behind, but at the same time, I'm more comfortable in here. I don't really know what to do when I get out.

[Earlonne Woods]

So is it gangs? Is it drugs? Is it no job? Is it. What do you think?

[Vincent O'Bannon]

I don't know. I always. I always been lonely, so I just stick to what I do and just don't care anymore, you know.

[Nigel Poor]

I remember when we were out there and the inside crew heard this guy. I mean, I could see it on their faces. They were floored by it. I don't think they could believe that there was some guy who would admit to this.

[Earlonne Woods]

Yeah, they were like, damn, is this cat for real?

[Nigel Poor]

Cool. Yes.

[Earlonne Woods]

Yes.

[Alice Woods]

Okay.

[Nigel Poor]

Okay.

[Earlonne Woods]

All right. So we are here in San Quentin in the Ear Hustle studio, which is the media lab. And we have everyone here that's on the team.

[Nigel Poor]

And we're here because we wanted to listen to this tape with you and then talk about your reactions, kind of what you were struck by, and together explore this idea. So let's do it.

[Earlonne Woods]

And before we do that, I want everyone to introduce themselves.

[Tom]

This is Tom.

[Nigel Poor]

Tony defoyer.

[Earlonne Woods]

Sadiq.

[Vincent O'Bannon]

This is also Tony. Tony the Trinidad. I was really surprised by what he said, by the fact that he's even willing to admit it to himself. You know, I mean, that to me, was what really impressed me about this guy and what was different. So I think there are a lot of people who are very comfortable inside, probably not ready to admit it to other people, let alone themselves.

[Nigel Poor]

Yeah. So wait, do you think that that's an inner shame, then, that people hold that are incarcerated, that they are comfortable?

[Tom]

I don't know if it's like, inner shame. I think it's just something like people don't want to admit out loud. I don't know what their reason would be for, but, like, certain things I wouldn't want to admit on a mic.

[Vincent O'Bannon]

I mean, he was raw with it. He was willing to admit that. And we were strangers and we had a microphone. So this was him being him. And it made me sad because I like, life could be so much flyer. It could be so much more beautiful. There's so much more to it than just Going in and out of jail. And so I was like, man, I hope you see better for yourself than that one day.

[Nigel Poor]

I know. You know, the thing that really stuck out to me was when he said he's lonely. I was like, oh, God, that really hurt to hear that.

[Earlonne Woods]

Yeah.

[Nigel Poor]

Yeah. Loneliness. Tony won. Loneliness is what really stuck out to me because that's really, like, the crux of why he keeps coming back. But also, we're using the term comfortable, right? Like, I'm comfortable in prison, but I don't want to be here.

[Earlonne Woods]

You know, Nige, I think we all felt that we had to explore this idea just a little bit more. So what better opportunity for Yardo?

[Nigel Poor]

Exactly. So let's listen to what we got. So what are we on the hunt for today?

[Tom]

Our main question right now is to find out if how people feel about being comfortable inside, what it looks like comfortable inside prison.

[Earlonne Woods]

Whoa.

[Vincent O'Bannon]

Being too comfortable? No, not for me.

[Earlonne Woods]

I'm never too comfortable.

[Nigel Poor]

Is there such a thing as being too comfortable on the inside of prison? Yes.

[Vincent O'Bannon]

Yes. Anytime you want to be here, something is definitely wrong, because this is not a place for anybody to really want to be. You ever feel like maybe you might be more comfortable inside?

[Earlonne Woods]

No.

[Nigel Poor]

Absolutely not.

[Vincent O'Bannon]

That thought has never crossed my mind.

[Alice Woods]

That I belong in here or that.

[Vincent O'Bannon]

I like it in here? Absolutely not. I think of society almost every day.

[Nigel Poor]

I've been down almost five years. I do not feel comfortable. I have never felt comfortable. Family man and a business owner, and.

[Earlonne Woods]

This is so far from that.

[Vincent O'Bannon]

It's just.

[Nigel Poor]

No, there's no comfort level.

[Earlonne Woods]

Honestly, it's like I was dropped onto another planet.

[Nigel Poor]

Okay. So a lot of these guys were like, no way. That is not me. But what's interesting, Earlonne, is when you ask the question in a slightly different way, you get a different answer.

[Earlonne Woods]

Right. And I know that there are a lot of guys who feel like prison is easier than life on the outside, and for them, it probably is.

[Vincent O'Bannon]

Have you ever come to find that some things in prison are a little easier or a little more comfortable than they are outside?

[Nigel Poor]

No.

[Vincent O'Bannon]

A little less worrisome?

[Nigel Poor]

No.

[Vincent O'Bannon]

What about rent?

[Tom]

Rent?

[Vincent O'Bannon]

Is rent easier?

[Nigel Poor]

Yeah, rent's easier.

[Tom]

And then insurance, medical costs.

[Nigel Poor]

Yeah, I guess, you know, now that.

[Tom]

You talk about it, no driver's insurance and no driver's license and, you know, no wife.

[Vincent O'Bannon]

No wife.

[Nigel Poor]

I saved a lot of money there. Tell us more about that one. I'm. I mean that, you know, we. That you have a wife, you have expenses, and if you don't have a wife, Anymore. You don't have expenses.

[Vincent O'Bannon]

You were down 18 years.

[Nigel Poor]

18.

[Vincent O'Bannon]

18 years. Like, let me. Let me ask you this, man. Sometimes being in prison can be a lot easier than being outside, right?

[Nigel Poor]

Oh, yeah.

[Tom]

Would you agree?

[Nigel Poor]

You better believe it.

[Earlonne Woods]

Outside is danger.

[Nigel Poor]

You see the news what's going on?

[Vincent O'Bannon]

Yeah.

[Nigel Poor]

All the cartels and the gangs, they start coming back the streets right now. That's the new prison. You see what's going on out there?

[Alice Woods]

Killings and stabbings and shootings, and you.

[Nigel Poor]

Don'T even have that in prison no more.

[Alice Woods]

In a way, I do because I.

[Nigel Poor]

Heard of people that they're in here.

[Alice Woods]

For so many years, and they get.

[Nigel Poor]

Out, and next thing you know, we hear that they died, they got killed.

[Earlonne Woods]

My name's Patrick Gonzalez, and I've been incarcerated for a little over 20 years. Dom, who is this Cat?

[Tom]

This is Patrick. I know him from the Dirty Nickel right in north block. I wanted to talk to him about being comfortable inside because he's been down a while, about 20 years or so. I was kind of curious about what he'd say.

[Earlonne Woods]

When I started, I began in level four in Calipat. I was originally sentenced to 33 to life. So right away, I knew I was never going home. I just became, like I said that word institutionalized. I go, this is part of my life. My own thinking came. I'm going to die in prison.

[Tom]

But now Patrick's getting ready to go home, and he's a little worried about it.

[Earlonne Woods]

As my time became shorter and shorter, these thoughts started coming in. What do I got to go out for? What is there left out there? I'm gonna be 56 next year. I'm not in the best health. And like I said, the first years of prison, I didn't get no education, no vocation. I wasted a lot of years that I wish I hadn't. And right now, I'm gonna have a lot of obstacles against me. It's gonna be almost like an impossible task compared to in here. I feel I get everything, even insurance. I had my heart attack last year, and as soon as I had my heart attack and I came back from the hospital, any little health issue that I had, staff or medical or whoever, I felt they were looking out for me. Even though this is prison, I felt like family, and I feel I have more love here than I do out there. It may sound weird, but that's just the way I feel.

[Tom]

Yeah.

[Nigel Poor]

Are there things about life inside prison that make you more comfortable or are easier than life outside the walls?

[Tom]

Yeah. I got into crime Originally, just so I wouldn't have to go to the dmv. And so ultimately, prison is kind of like, you know, just the full manifestation of avoiding, you know, bureaucratic paperwork.

[Nigel Poor]

Can you say more about that?

[Tom]

Well, it's been working out pretty well. I haven't gone to the DMV in probably over 20 years, and I'm really happy with that.

[Nigel Poor]

Is that so Kelton? It's like, you know, he's bullshitting you, but there's also a grain of truth to what he's saying.

[Earlonne Woods]

Yeah, he definitely say some shit that's gonna raise some eyebrows.

[Tom]

Also, here's the thing. If you guys want more of a straight answer, I'll give you a straight answer. I just thought maybe give you something that with. Since I've come to San Quentin and there's like a college here, an on campus college, I can essentially just focus entirely on schoolwork and my own personal studies. And so my life consists almost entirely of reading and writing. I don't talk about it very much because a lot of people in here don't like it, but I found so much appreciation for being able to get up in the morning and simply come and not have to worry about paychecks, right? Not have to worry about rent. Not have to worry about where my food's coming from, because I know it's there. I have a bed. I have meals. They're not great meals, right? And the cot isn't that great, but I get to spend all of my day, every day, doing academic work. How many people out there have a stack of books on their shelf that they want to read someday and they don't have time for it, right? Well, I have time to read that stack of books.

[Vincent O'Bannon]

If you think about today in the modern day, how much do people pay for meditation retreats?

[Nigel Poor]

Earlonne, this is Arendt. Do you remember this guy?

[Earlonne Woods]

Yep. He's another cat from our 12 hours on the Yard episode. We call him the Birdman.

[Nigel Poor]

Yep. He stands out on the yard all day long, and he, I would say, really communes with the pigeons.

[Vincent O'Bannon]

All my meals are taken care of. I don't have to think about or worry about anything. I mean, I.

[Nigel Poor]

All I have to do is I.

[Vincent O'Bannon]

Could just meditate and I can. I can cultivate my being and I. I'm doing it for free. Works for me. I'm. I'm a lifer, right? I'm serving 16 to life. But, you know, that was a relaxing point when I got that sentence. It was like a relief. I'm like, well, at least I know what I'm going to be doing for that long. When they did all these laws, you know, it was like people trying to pull me out of my comfort zone almost. Does that make any sense?

[Nigel Poor]

You mean when they were changing laws, you might be able to get out sooner?

[Vincent O'Bannon]

Yeah.

[Nigel Poor]

That was stressful for you?

[Vincent O'Bannon]

No, but it was like a weird little. It was just a weird little tickle on my spidey senses kind of thing. And I'm just like, geez, man. I'm just trying to sit here and relax, you know?

[Nigel Poor]

Okay, so we're back inside with the inside team and hearing that tape, I'm wondering, like, what do you guys think the listeners are gonna make of what they had to say?

[Earlonne Woods]

He's not ready. So when you're ready to get out, it's like, you know, you know what you want. You have people out there to lean.

[Vincent O'Bannon]

On that can help you with those.

[Earlonne Woods]

Things, you know, that's how you know when you're ready. You know, you dealt with your emotions.

[Vincent O'Bannon]

You dealt with things that you had to deal with.

[Earlonne Woods]

You dealt with your crime. You dealt with anything that you feel like that might be a barrier that be in your way when you get out there. When I hear Aaron, I hear somebody.

[Vincent O'Bannon]

That'S scared to get out.

[Earlonne Woods]

You know, obviously he feel like, you know, I've been doing this for so long. I'm comfortable. I don't want to go out there and deal with no stress. I don't have to deal with bills in here. I don't have to deal with anything like, where am I going to go? It's like, I gotta start my life all over.

[Nigel Poor]

But can you imagine people on the outside hearing this and being like, what the hell? Like, really, prison is like a retreat. Like, this is too cushy.

[Vincent O'Bannon]

It is. I think it should be a meditation retreat. Trust me, you want me on a meditation retreat. I went out there and committed a horrible crime. I need to sit down, think about what I did, and change a little bit. So maybe it's not such a bad thing for us to sit down and meditate a little bit. But that don't get it twisted. It's not all like fun and games in here, you know?

[Nigel Poor]

Also, Aaron isn't really saying it here, but he was unhoused. Unhoused meaning that he was homeless. And I know having a place to sit where he can feel safe, where he can explore in his mind, that feels like freedom to him.

[Earlonne Woods]

I always look at it like I'd rather be, you know, unhoused homeless. Whatever you want to say. I'd rather be that than here, because I can go and change my circumstances out there, you know, with the free will to do so.

[Vincent O'Bannon]

Earlonne, you ever been homeless?

[Earlonne Woods]

Never been homeless.

[Vincent O'Bannon]

I could tell.

[Nigel Poor]

I could see your face. He was like, I don't like this comment at all.

[Earlonne Woods]

No, but look, look, though, I mean, what is homeless?

[Vincent O'Bannon]

So I don't. I don't know. It's different for everybody. For me, it's just the fact that I didn't have a home. I didn't have a home to go home to every night. So I was running the streets. I never slept on a sidewalk, but I was lucky enough to break into a place and sleep. I mean, or be save up for a hotel room. But it's a constant survival. And one thing I know about prison, it's not necessarily a constant survival for your food and your shelter.

[Tom]

I agree with Tony, too. Right. That maybe you haven't been homeless for a long time or anything. Because I was homeless when I was, like, 14 and not having food to eat, scratching my legs till they bled because the bugs were biting me from sleeping on the bushes like I would at that time. I would have rather traded being incarcerated, which shortly after I did. That's why I kind of understand when people say it. I'm not saying I want it now, but I have different goals in life now. And you're a driven person. You guys started a podcast. But other people in here, maybe they're not there yet. They're just like, hey, man, I'm cool with just getting fed. I could feed birds and read books.

[Nigel Poor]

I've never been homeless, but I can see how having structure and uniformity feels really good. And I think that might be where the idea of being institutionalized comes from. I mean, I have institutionalized parts about myself. I wake up at the exact same time every day. I do the same schedule. I get very anxious when something happens that is out of the norm, but I definitely don't want to be here. And so I think that's the difference between comfortable and institutionalized.

[Earlonne Woods]

You know, the word institutionalized is a hard word to swallow, you know, and it's probably harder for individuals to even admit to it.

[Nigel Poor]

Yes. And I think it's also harder to understand because people don't see themselves as institutionalized. They don't want to see that they have created a. A safety bubble or like a little harbor for themselves within structure that was never meant to allow them to grow or change or help them to become better people.

[Vincent O'Bannon]

When someone Tells you there's no institutionalization in me at all. They're lying. They're lying to you.

[Earlonne Woods]

Because we all have a little bit.

[Vincent O'Bannon]

Some have more than others, but we.

[Earlonne Woods]

All have a little bit.

[Vincent O'Bannon]

If on a scale of 1 to 10, how institutionalized are you?

[Tom]

I'm up there pretty high. I'm like probably nine.

[Vincent O'Bannon]

Nine probably.

[Earlonne Woods]

Yeah.

[Tom]

Yeah.

[Nigel Poor]

Does that worry you that you just threw out nine?

[Tom]

Yeah. No, because I have to have a certain amount of comfort with, with the life I have daily.

[Nigel Poor]

You know what I mean?

[Tom]

So that's, you know, I mean, and I'm, I'm at peace, you know what I mean? It's like I'm not, I'm not really. I don't feel like my day is horrible, you know, I mean, I got, I got a lot of family and friends and people that I talk to and I'm in touch with and I get a visit here and there and so I have some meaning in my lifestyle.

[Nigel Poor]

What if it's more adaptability? You've adapted and then when you get out, you'll adapt to that too?

[Tom]

Yeah, yeah. And you know, the older, the older.

[Nigel Poor]

You get, the easier it is to.

[Tom]

Just accept that, you know, there's a better way.

[Nigel Poor]

Like crime.

[Tom]

Crime's a young man's thing. You know, I go to sleep at 8:30, 9:00. Like I wouldn't even go to the nightclubs or anything anymore.

[Nigel Poor]

I don't.

[Tom]

There's nothing there for me.

[Earlonne Woods]

Yeah, yeah.

[Nigel Poor]

You're like, I'm okay to be home by 7:30 and sit on the couch. It's weird. I know these young guys are like, what? But it happens. It'll happen to you too.

[Earlonne Woods]

My name is Robert Bellfield. I've been incarcerated for 13 years.

[Nigel Poor]

Are you comfortable inside?

[Earlonne Woods]

In my country, I got to be comfortable. I gotta survive.

[Nigel Poor]

Okay. How do you feel about that?

[Earlonne Woods]

I'm disgusted with it. Right. To be truthful.

[Vincent O'Bannon]

Right.

[Nigel Poor]

We were asking the difference between being institutionalized and comfortable inside. And they said being institutionalized means you have a routine and you're doing the same thing over and over again. And being comfortable inside means that you're kind of taking care of yourself and you're growing. That's interesting, right?

[Earlonne Woods]

It's very interesting. How do you feel about that?

[Nigel Poor]

I thought I was like an aha moment because I real. I thought that's what probably true, that you could be comfortable in here. And it doesn't mean you're stagnating. You're still growing and changing and you're making the Best of your situ. You're adapting.

[Earlonne Woods]

Yeah, I'm really processing that response right there. Right. Because if being institutionalized means you're just doing a routine every day, then that means even on the streets you could be institutionalized. Right. Like, are you comfortable in life or are you institutionalized? Real question.

[Nigel Poor]

Yeah, I think I'm partially institutionalized because I love, I feel very comfortable with routine, but I also like to put myself in new situations and be challenged. So I think I'm 50. 50, but I definitely. I like what you said about you can be institutionalized outside. I think it's really true. What do you guys think about that, being institutionalized outside Siddiq here?

[Vincent O'Bannon]

I think it's true.

[Earlonne Woods]

You know, people get caught in routines and when something is out of place or something that they probably freak out as well. I'm not out there, but I have been on the street and I was like, routine with a lot of this stuff. So going to work, whatever else you're doing, shower, drop the kids off, eat, it's all the same. It's routine. So definitely on the streets. I think people are institutionalized.

[Vincent O'Bannon]

People really create their own little fears and worries and routines. They gotta stick to em. And they got these bills that they're beholden to and then they get kids and they got like all this responsibility that just weighs them down. And here after a certain point, people are almost liberated by their institutionalization. They don't have to worry about so much. They get to pursue one craft or a piece of art or whatever it is they really are passionate about. They often find the time in here to be free to pursue that. Right.

[Nigel Poor]

So do you think being institutionalized is doing the same thing over and over again without really considering why you're doing it?

[Vincent O'Bannon]

I think being institutionalized is a mental state. Like it's. I have to be. Maybe it has to do somewhat with routine, but it's like I have to do this certain way, otherwise it's not right.

[Earlonne Woods]

Yeah, that was just like the life of crime, you know, you're in a mental prison, like Tony too was saying. And you're definitely institutionalized because you really don't care about coming to this place if you know it go bad.

[Nigel Poor]

Yeah. Like, what if you're in a gang?

[Earlonne Woods]

Same thing, same thing. Certain way of life, certain way, you, you're, you know, certain way, certain rules you go by. But it's still. Yeah, you institutionalize.

[Tom]

I think institutionalization looks like where you think that everything, you live a life like a zombie, you just repeat a routine over and over, and there's no other option. And I think that's why I see things, like, I mean, differently from you about the homeless situation, being that I remember being 14 and. And not thinking there was any other option. So I was like, I'm just going to sleep on the street until something happens. You know what I mean? So I think, like, institutionalization is not just in prison. It's the people out there that have never been to prison. They just live like a zombie. There's no other option for them, and they just live the same way.

[Nigel Poor]

It's going to make an inventory of what you have. So you've got highlighters and pension tape, toothpaste, earbuds, some kind of wrist brace, glasses, bobbins, paper. Oh, a raincoat, Irish Spring soap, paper clips, battery charger, some kind of air spray. I was out on the yard with the two Tonys.

[Earlonne Woods]

Tony Tafoya and Tony De Trinidad.

[Nigel Poor]

Exactly. And we walked up to this guy who. I think, you know, his. His name is Cowboy.

[Earlonne Woods]

Oh, yeah.

[Nigel Poor]

Yeah. He's. He sits out there every single day. I mean, every day with a blanket covered with stuff.

[Earlonne Woods]

I saw him out there for years at San Quentin doing the same shit. And that's when I was inside. So, you know, he's been doing that for a while.

[Nigel Poor]

Right. And when I think about people at San Quentin who have really settled into a routine in prison, this is the person that comes to mind. Wow. What's the best item you got here?

[Earlonne Woods]

Me.

[Nigel Poor]

Do you have a daily routine that you follow? Right.

[Earlonne Woods]

Here it is.

[Nigel Poor]

What time do you get here?

[Earlonne Woods]

About 10:30 to 1:30.

[Nigel Poor]

Have you ever heard the expression institutionalized?

[Earlonne Woods]

No, I haven't.

[Vincent O'Bannon]

So institutionalized would be like. You got so used to being in prison that you function better in prison.

[Earlonne Woods]

Than you do outside. Yeah. Okay.

[Nigel Poor]

What do you think about that expression?

[Earlonne Woods]

I believe it's true to a lot of people. Yeah. A lot of them don't even realize they're institutionalized.

[Nigel Poor]

Do you think it applies to you at all?

[Earlonne Woods]

It might have in some ways. You know, I've been in and out, too. So, you know, I'm not no angel. Only reason I ain't got wings. Cause when I was a baby, my daddy couldn't afford to put them on me.

[Nigel Poor]

So sweet. What about you, do you think could be institutionalized? What aspects of you.

[Earlonne Woods]

You get everything give to you here. You don't have to worry, you don't have to work. You know, after a while, you just get used to it and go along with the flow. You know.

[Nigel Poor]

Yeah, yeah. Are those bobbins?

[Earlonne Woods]

Yeah, they're little threads. Yeah. You know, drying little this, little that. You know.

[Nigel Poor]

If we come back out here on Tuesday, can we talk to you again, see what you got?

[Earlonne Woods]

Why not? I'd like to see you. Okay.

[Nigel Poor]

All right. I'm just gonna make an inventory of what you have.

[Earlonne Woods]

Cowboys sound like one of them dudes that's chewing and spitting tobacco when you talking to them.

[Nigel Poor]

So we spent a lot of me from the dudes about this question of being comfortable inside. But of course I wondered what the women would have to say.

[Earlonne Woods]

After the break, we're going to head to the Central California Women's Facility or CCWF and see what a couple of residents there have to say.

[Vincent O'Bannon]

Expo marker, that looks very used.

[Nigel Poor]

And a black Sharpie but off brand marker that is awfully used. And earplugs, there's like three. They are still sealed. Earplugs. Yes. And two old rubber bands. Some rubber bands also. That looks like.

[Earlonne Woods]

Happy January. Naj.

[Nigel Poor]

What? You can't say Happy New Year. Yeah, we supposed to say Happy New Year. Happy New Year to you. Rahsaan, New York. Thomas.

[Earlonne Woods]

Thank you.

[Nigel Poor]

I am super excited to tell you listeners about Radiotopia's newest show, Hyperfixed.

[Earlonne Woods]

Hosted by former Reply all co host Alex Goldman, Hyperfixed is a podcast where you, the listener, write in with your problems and Alex solves them. He tackles everything from the origin of a mysterious button to whether a listener should have kids or not.

[Nigel Poor]

This gets pretty personal.

[Vincent O'Bannon]

That's crazy.

[Earlonne Woods]

That's such a big decision.

[Nigel Poor]

Also, what is this button? Is he talking about like buttons on your shirt? Or is it a very specific button somewhere? Benjamin Button? I don't. Each episode of Hyperfixed attempts not only to solve listeners problems, but exposes the hidden systems that cause those problems in the first place. Alex is kind of obsessed with solving your problems and he will go to absurd lengths to try and resolve them.

[Earlonne Woods]

Help us welcome the newest show to the Radiotopia family. Find Hyperfix on your favorite podcast platform. Now.

[Nigel Poor]

Listeners, do you want even more.

[Earlonne Woods]

Ear Hustle and even fewer ads like zero, zilch, nothing, Nada.

[Nigel Poor]

If so, subscribe to Ear Hustle Plus.

[Earlonne Woods]

Ear Hustle plus subscribers get access to ad free episodes and bonus episodes.

[Nigel Poor]

Our Ear Hustle plus episodes are really fun. Subscribers can find out what's happening with people they've heard on previous episodes and they can also send in questions for us to answer.

[Earlonne Woods]

And me and Nigel get to sit here and chop it up with our producer Bruce and just talk about whatever.

[Nigel Poor]

If you want to hear more of that, subscribe to ear [e-mail] or directly in Apple Podcasts.

[Earlonne Woods]

And thanks for supporting the show. We appreciate y'all. And send in some provocative questions, spicy questions.

[Alice Woods]

I know how to live. I know how to live in here. I guess you could say I know. Every day I gotta get up and go to breakfast. Go program the way of life. The structure. Yeah, the structure. I guess it is sad that I got comfortable with it, but it's just the way it is, you know?

[Nigel Poor]

So this was at the Central California Women's Facility, or ccwf.

[Earlonne Woods]

It's a prison in a town called Chowchilla.

[Nigel Poor]

And this woman we're talking to is named Jody. I mean, I think her voice kind of gives you a sense of what she looks like. She's pretty small, a little diminished. You know, she wears these wide ring glasses. Her hair is pulled back really tight. It's almost like something's been pulled out of her.

[Earlonne Woods]

Yeah, I mean, she's been down 37 years and you can really see it on her.

[Alice Woods]

I've been locked up all my life. I don't have nothing out there. My family, they're not with me no more. So there's nothing out there for me. I've been locked up since I was 21. I'm 56 now. I'll be 57 in June. So this is all I know. I came with a 15th life sentence for a second degree murder. I had two Cody friends, ex husband, ex boyfriend that committed the murder, that are out of prison now. I'm still here, you know, I don't know, due to my behavior. Sometimes I feel like it's just easier just doing what I do every day then fighting to go home. I mean, yeah, of course I think about getting out. I would love to get out. But also, it's unknown I've been in here how many centuries? I mean, it feels like centuries. Decades. You know, I grew up in here, so the world has changed out there. There's a lot of new technology, new cars, new everything. Cell phones, I mean, they were still landlines when I was out there. Gas was 98 cents a gallon. You know, I mean, things have changed. I just think it's overwhelming. I mean, I do.

[Nigel Poor]

Yeah.

[Alice Woods]

I mean, you know.

[Nigel Poor]

Could you, like, describe it to us, what you imagine it is like out there and imagine.

[Alice Woods]

It being faster, Fast, you know, a fast world. World where everybody's walking around with cell phones and ear things. And it wasn't like that when I, you know, was out there.

[Nigel Poor]

So it is like that.

[Alice Woods]

In my family. I didn't even know drugs were bad till there. You know what I mean? I was like 8 or 9. I was in grade school. The officer walked in with this briefcase, and I saw some of the things that I saw regularly at my house. I was like, oh, no. Oh, no.

[Earlonne Woods]

This is Reese. And my first impression of her, she came in, she had her little beanie pulled down. She had her rimmed glasses on, and she looked like a undercover thug.

[Nigel Poor]

She's definitely somebody you notice, right?

[Earlonne Woods]

Yes.

[Nigel Poor]

So Reese was telling us a story about when she was a kid and she was at school. They were doing one of the. Those dare presentations. Do you remember those?

[Earlonne Woods]

Yeah. That was like that just say no type program.

[Nigel Poor]

Yep. Trying to get kids to stay away from drugs.

[Alice Woods]

And I'm looking around, and all these kids are like, ah. And I'm all panic stricken. I'm the eldest, so I usually had to wait after school till all the little kids came, and then we would all walk home together. I bailed. I ran straight home and was crying and upset and was like, dad, you're gonna go to prison. And he goes, did you tell anybody?

[Earlonne Woods]

No.

[Alice Woods]

Okay, then don't worry about, like, wait a minute.

[Nigel Poor]

And was that confusing?

[Alice Woods]

Oh, yeah, big time.

[Nigel Poor]

Who did you believe? Your dad, that it wouldn't be a problem or the DARE people?

[Alice Woods]

Yeah, my dad, for sure. Dad never lies to me. Dad's the comfort. Dad's the security. You know, as long as we didn't tell the police, we were fine. We all, at that point, cops are great. Right. After that point, cops are no good. And stay away from them. And. And that's how I led my life. You don't tell the cops nothing. Unfortunately, my dad ended up dying from a drug overdose.

[Earlonne Woods]

Reese got into drugs at a pretty early age, and that led basically to a cycle of being in and out of jail.

[Nigel Poor]

The first time she went in, she was 15.

[Alice Woods]

I was a little intimidated, but when I got in there, I knew people, and so they showed me how to be and welcomed me in. And I know this is what makes me a little crazy when I say it. Okay. Because it was comfortable then as much as it is now. It does not bother me to be locked up. And that's part of the problem for me. The walls provide me with freedom from myself too.

[Earlonne Woods]

So in prison is the only place that you get to really find yourself.

[Alice Woods]

Yeah.

[Earlonne Woods]

The real you are. Without all the influences.

[Alice Woods]

Yeah. I've been high my whole life. My mom does drugs. My dad died from a drug overdose. My brother's a drop down alcoholic, you know, and these are my direct relatives. The only thing I've really been good at that's never let me down is my singing, you know, which I can't do when I'm high. So, again, coming in here helps me be the better person.

[Earlonne Woods]

Do you. Do you feel it has to be a prison or does it has to just be a timeout somewhere to go, like a program in society?

[Alice Woods]

For me, I have to be locked up. The system's comfortable for me. And I don't tell people this all the time because it's like just. You don't talk about it. You know, if you're comfortable, you're comfortable. You don't say it because everybody's supposed to be uncomfortable. Oh, I don't want to be here. But for me, I live a very dangerous life. I've got scars on my face from the dangers I live in without being incarcerated. I'm always high. I'm always all messed up. I don't have family out there to keep me regulated. I don't have anybody I run to. I don't have anybody I call while I'm in here. Everybody's like, oh, you have somebody? No, I don't. This place, I have a roof over my head. They make sure I eat every day. They make sure that I'm comfortable in a sense, you know, out there, I got to worry about people. Let's just put it out bluntly. I got to worry about people trying to rape me. I got to worry about people trying to kill me. If I were to get out right now, where would I go? What would I do? Back to the hood. I would be right back in the same situation that put me here. I don't have to worry about those things in here. I know how to fight. I can stand my ground. I've already proved that point. So now people leave me alone. You know, I'm not one to break promises. I don't want to hurt you, but I need to breathe. At the end of it all, you're still my best friend. But there's something inside that I need to release.

[Nigel Poor]

Reese, this is what I wanted to ask you. You talked about your looks and how you present yourself. So you do have a tough exterior. You've got tattoos on your neck. You're, like, solid. You definitely look like you.

[Alice Woods]

I hold myself well.

[Nigel Poor]

Yeah. Yes, yeah, all of that stuff. And so I'm not gonna say I was intimidated, but I definitely noticed how you looked. But then when you sing, you, like, have this very nurturing, gentle.

[Alice Woods]

It's my soul.

[Nigel Poor]

And, like, you smile in a different way. Your eyes get bright. Your face totally softens.

[Alice Woods]

Yeah.

[Nigel Poor]

So which side of you is more you? And do you struggle with these two sides?

[Alice Woods]

I think my whole life has been difficult and extremely difficult at times, so I've adapted to being two people. Mentally, I'm just not right. Something's wrong, and I know that. So I'm here trying to fix that.

[Earlonne Woods]

There was this story Reese told us about one of the times she was in jail before she came to ccwf.

[Nigel Poor]

And when I thought about this story later, what was so striking to me was it seemed like Reese was discovering, maybe for the first time, this sort of softer version of herself, like something was opening up for her.

[Alice Woods]

I was in Monterey county, actually, and the cops came and got me out of my cell because they were having problems with a inmate with mental health issues. He was really being out of control. And so Tracy. Ms. Tracy was the name of that officer. She came and got me, and she goes, we need you to come help us calm this inmate down. And I was like, how am I gonna help him? She goes, he said he wants you to sing for him, and we can't get him to stop.

[Nigel Poor]

Why was there a man there?

[Alice Woods]

In county, there's both sexes. It's not segregated like it is here usually. I mean, there's the. The men's side and then the women's side.

[Earlonne Woods]

And how did he know about you?

[Alice Woods]

He had heard me singing on the bus. In transport, when you're going from the facility to court, there's other inmates. And so he must have been on the bus with me, because he said. Told them that he wanted the girl that can sing. So I walked up, and I was like, can you tell me what your problem is? And he goes, I don't want to talk to these guys. I just want to hear you. And I was like, hear me? I'm right here, bro. They had him in a safety cell, and he was in the suit, you know, I don't know if you guys know, but they get you butt naked, put this Kevlar type of suit on you, and. And he was very distressed. And I said, well, what do you want me to sing for you? And he goes, I don't care. And we sang the ABCs together, because in my head, I'm thinking, okay, well, he's distressed, and he just wants to hear something comforting. So I was thinking, what's more comforting to somebody who's not all there thank something we all know. So I was like, A, B, C, D, E, F, G. And he just got real quiet and he sat down and he listened to me, and I sang the whole Alphabet. And I said, next time, won't you sing with me? And he's like, really? And I was like, yeah, come on, let's sing together. And by the time I was done with the second version of it and he was singing with me, he was very much a different.

[Nigel Poor]

A, B, C.

[Alice Woods]

D, E, F, G, H, I, J, K, L, M, N, O, P, Q, R, S, T, U, V, W, X, Y and Z. Now I know my ABCs next time won't you sing with me.

[Nigel Poor]

Earl? And don't you think it's so touching that she found a way to make somebody else feel comfortable inside?

[Earlonne Woods]

Definitely. You know, and, and, and, and I. I give props to the officer.

[Nigel Poor]

Yeah.

[Earlonne Woods]

That came and got her because, you know, they could have easily done that a whole different way. Tied him up, you know, the whole nine, threw them in there. But she actually, you know, went above and beyond just to go get somebody to come and, you know, calm them down.

[Nigel Poor]

It's true. I didn't even think about that. So it's this really kind of lovely collaboration between the officer and Rhys and her coming up with this. That's this song that would pull something out of him and invite him to sing along with her.

[Earlonne Woods]

Indeed. That was, as you would say, sweet.

[Nigel Poor]

It was sweet. It was very tender. And I really wanted you to sing the ABCs to kind of take us out on this episode, But I knew that wasn't going to be possible.

[Earlonne Woods]

Not at all.

[Nigel Poor]

So we got someone else to do it.

[Earlonne Woods]

Yes, you did. And I figured I'd at least support it a little bit with a little beatboxing.

[Nigel Poor]

Okay, we got it. One last chance.

[Earlonne Woods]

She's still trying to bait you. A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J, K, L, M, N.

[Vincent O'Bannon]

O, P, Q, R, S, T, U.

[Earlonne Woods]

V, W, X, Y and Z Now I know my AB6 next time won't.

[Vincent O'Bannon]

You sing with me?

[Nigel Poor]

Yes, I will. Yippee. Thank you, Sadiq. Oh.

[Earlonne Woods]

Sadiq is mentally challenged, so.

[Nigel Poor]

That was so hard. You did so. It was so hard to get him to do it, but that was beautiful. Hello. Hi. My name is Latoya Jenkins. I am incarcerated here at CCWF. I've been incarcerated for 15 years. I am a dog trainer. I've been a dog trainer for five years. I train service dogs. Ear Hustle is produced by Nigel Poore. Earline Woods, Amy Standen, Bruce Wallace, Rahsaan, New York Thomas and Kat Shuknik. Shubnam Sigman is the managing producer. The producing team, Inside San Quentin includes Darrell Sadiq Davis, Tony De Trinidad, and Tom Wynn. The inside managing producer is Tony Tafoya. Thanks to Acting Warden Andes at San Quentin, Acting Warden Parker and Lt. Newborg at the California Institution for Women, and Lt. Williams at the Central California Women's Facility for their support of the show.

[Earlonne Woods]

Latoya, don't forget about Warden Delacruz.

[Nigel Poor]

So true. Also thanks to this woman here.

[Alice Woods]

I am Lieutenant Giamari Berry, the public information officer at San Quentin Rehabilitation center, and I approve this episode.

[Nigel Poor]

This episode was made possible by the Just Trust building, a smaller, more humane engine of justice and safety across the country. For more information about this episode, check out the show notes on ear hustle's website, earhustlesq.com youm can also find out more about the show on Instagram, Facebook and YouTube @earhustle sq.

[Earlonne Woods]

Nyj happy new season of Ear Hustle to you.

[Nigel Poor]

Well, right back at you, my friend.

[Earlonne Woods]

Indeed.

[Nigel Poor]

So we've got a bunch of new episodes in the works right now. And what's the one that you're most excited about?

[Earlonne Woods]

Elections, of course.

[Nigel Poor]

Oh, my God. That is not the one I thought you were going to pick.

[Earlonne Woods]

Oh, yeah. I got to say, elections. Cause it's been really exciting. I mean, our inside producers, they're gonna do like, a straw poll on the yard, and we're gonna find out if the election was held in San Quentin, who would win. That's gonna be interesting.

[Nigel Poor]

It's gonna be interesting. I'm a little bit afraid of what the answer's gonna be, but we're gonna all find out together, which is gonna be very exciting.

[Earlonne Woods]

It's gonna be shocking.

[Nigel Poor]

I think this whole fucking election season is shocking.

[Earlonne Woods]

So question.

[Alice Woods]

Yes.

[Earlonne Woods]

Who they gonna vote for, the prosecutor or the felon?

[Nigel Poor]

I know. I'm speechless. I don't even know how to respond.

[Earlonne Woods]

Okay, so I'm gonna ask you the same question. Which one are you excited about?

[Nigel Poor]

I bet you can guess.

[Earlonne Woods]

All eight.

[Nigel Poor]

Oh, yeah. Well, all eight, but the Last memory episode. These are episodes where we talk to people in prison about the last memory, you know, the last association they have with a place before they were incarcerated. And this time, we're doing it at a women's prison.

[Earlonne Woods]

Yes, we are.

[Nigel Poor]

I love these episodes because we never know what's going to happen. And Earlonne, I'm almost getting teary. Something surprising and connective happens every time we do one of these. It's so life affirming.

[Earlonne Woods]

Got you, got you.

[Nigel Poor]

Yep, yep, yep.

[Earlonne Woods]

Okay, now shall we get to these credits?

[Nigel Poor]

Let's do it. Earlonne Woods Sound designs and engineers the show with help from Fernando Arruda, Harry Culhane and Darrell Siddiq Davis.

[Earlonne Woods]

Music for this episode comes from Darrell Sadiq Davis, Antwan Williams and me.

[Nigel Poor]

Earlonne Woods Want more Ear Hustle? Subscribe to Ear Hustle Plus Ear Hustle.

[Earlonne Woods]

Plus subscribers get access to ad free episodes plus bonus episodes in a special subscriber only feed and earlonne.

[Nigel Poor]

Our Ear Hustle plus episodes are really fun. Subscribers can find out what's happening with people they've heard on previous episodes and they can also send in their questions for you and me to answer. And I love doing that now.

[Earlonne Woods]

That part is fun.

[Nigel Poor]

It is.

[Earlonne Woods]

Subscribe to ear [e-mail] and if you.

[Nigel Poor]

Want to learn more about this episode and all of our episodes, please sign up for the monthly email newsletter.

[Earlonne Woods]

The Lowdown with this hookup, you can go see photos, you can go behind the scenes to find out what the Ear Hustle team is up to and more. All delivered right to your inbox.

[Nigel Poor]

[e-mail] Newsletter and while you're at it, leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. It's a big help for the show and we really appreciate it.

[Earlonne Woods]

Ear Hustle is a proud member of Radiotopia from prx, a network of independent, creator owned, listener supported podcasts.

[Nigel Poor]

Discover Audio with Vision at Radiotopia fm.

[Earlonne Woods]

I'm Earlonne Woods.

[Nigel Poor]

I'm Nigel Poor.

[Earlonne Woods]

Thanks for listening.

[Nigel Poor]

Radiotopia from prx.

[Earlonne Woods]

It.