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[00:02]
A
Hey, listeners, it's Earlonne and Nigel.
[00:05]
B
We wanted to introduce you to another podcast. This one is from our colleagues at prx.
[00:10]
A
It's called the Science of Happiness.
[00:12]
C
And as you can maybe guess from
[00:14]
A
the name, it explores what science can tell us about living a happier, more meaningful life.
[00:20]
B
We thought Ear Hustle listeners might be especially interested in this episode, which tells the story of two brothers.
[00:26]
A
Boy.
[00:26]
B
Both have done time in California prisons today. Their work helps change policy around incarceration and supports formerly incarcerated people pursuing higher education.
[00:36]
A
The conversation actually picks up on something. A few of our episodes this past season touched on the different people who might become mentors.
[00:44]
B
While you're inside, we hope you enjoy it. You can find the Science of Happiness wherever you get your podcasts.
[00:53]
D
Welcome to the Science of Happiness. I'm Shuka Kalantari. Today we're talking about the people who change the way we see ourselves and our future. The people who encourage us, inspire us and help us see what's possible. Danny and Gilbert Murillo's story brings that idea to life. Danny is the co founder of Underground Scholars, a program that creates pathways to higher education for incarcerated, formerly incarcerated, and system impacted people.
[01:21]
E
The university is a treasure chest, but you won't know how to find the treasures if you don't have a map.
[01:27]
D
For more than a decade, he's helped people pursue new possibilities and move forward when public policy has left them behind.
[01:34]
E
The only thing that I could do is be what I didn't have and that was a role model that would show me a different direction.
[01:41]
D
His brother, Gilbert Murillo, is a policy advocate and researcher who draws on his own experience with incarceration to reform California's criminal justice system.
[01:51]
A
Going through this higher education, I fell in love with data analytics where, like, how can we use quantitative data to challenge certain policies that promote white supremacy or promote displacement? And it goes back because without my brother, I would have not got here.
[02:07]
D
We also hear from Bob McKinnon, the founder of the Social Mobility Lab, about how role models can also expand our definition of success from something we earn on our own to something that's made
[02:18]
C
possible through connection in certain cultures and certainly ours. There's this idea that you don't need anyone, that you can pull yourself up from your bootstraps, which is physically impossible if you know what a bootstrap is.
[02:32]
D
We'll explore all of that and more coming up. Welcome back to the Science of Happiness. I'm Shuka Kalintari. Today on our show, we're talking about the importance and impact of role models. Research shows that when young people have someone to look up to, they're more engaged in school, they feel happier and more confident and make safer choices. But role models aren't just for kids. They matter throughout our lives, especially when we're navigating barriers that can make the path forward harder to see. Studies reveal that when someone who shares your story reaches their goals, it changes what feels within reach, strengthening our sense of agency. That's what Danny Murillo did for his little brother, Gilbert. Here's our conversation with our host, Decker Keltner.
[03:28]
B
Thanks for taking time out of your busy days to be here.
[03:31]
E
Thank you very much for the invitation. Appreciate it.
[03:33]
A
Likewise. I really appreciate it being here.
[03:35]
B
I'd love to start with you, Danny, and just tell us about Underground Scholars. I remember reading about it in that New Yorker article, 2016, and it just blew me off the map. What was your journey there?
[03:47]
E
My educational journey started while in prison. When I got to Berkeley, we started as a reading group, and out of that grew the aspirations of wanting to create a space for formerly incarcerated students. The first thing that we created was a student organization. And that was, like, furthest from the thing that we thought about ever creating. Like, we wanted to create a research center, a public service center, a policy center, and, like, never thought about a student Org until we heard that there was $135,000 on the table. We applied, we got it, and we opened up space at Stiles hall. And we've been there ever since. Right? 2014. But we've grown since then.
[04:22]
B
So, Gilbert, man, you're studying at the Goldman School of Public Policy. What are you interested in?
[04:26]
A
I fell in love with a lot of data analytics. And I realized that a lot of people of color, we don't know so much about quantitative data. I just presented an 80 page report to my client, the California Election Office. When I presented that report, my client was like, I like this report. I could get you a job at the Sacramento State Capitol.
[04:44]
B
Congratulations.
[04:45]
A
Yes, thank you. And he told me, look, I don't want to put a disco ball right in front of you, but you do have choices and you should take pride of that report that you had made. But luckily, I spoke with the director of Underground Scholar, Azadeh. She gave me, like, Clary, like, maybe you should do the Sacramento.
[05:00]
B
Yeah.
[05:01]
A
Those two years and build up those connections, build up the political campaign, then go back to your neighborhood and run for the district representative. Then you start moving forward from there. And it goes back because without my brother, I would have not Got here.
[05:14]
B
Tell us what you guys were like as kids. Like, what was your relationship like growing up?
[05:18]
E
We didn't have a relationship, unfortunately. Gilbert was born April 21, 1994, and I got incarcerated the last couple of weeks of March of 1996, and I went in for 15 years. I was supposed to serve 12. I ended up serving about 13 years and 10 months. So when I came home, Gilbert was about 16 years old. some point, though, I started communicating with him. I remember always sending him and my nephews Spider man drawings. I was placed in solitary confinement in 2003 for the remainder of my sentence. And it was in solitary confinement where you could hear the desperation in my mom's letters. There was a point where she started writing to me and like, yo, I'm concerned about your little brother. He's going in the wrong direction. And then I started noticing it because some of the letters just changed. I remember first the letters were like, oh, I'm in boxing club. I'm learning how to rap. I'm writing raps. And that excited me, you know? And then, you know, next thing you know, like, oh, you know, I'm out here in the streets now, you know, and I can't wait to get out. We're going to take control. And I'm like, nah, that's not what I want to do, you know?
[06:20]
B
Yeah, you're inside and prison. Pelican Bay, right?
[06:23]
E
Yeah.
[06:24]
B
How are you communicating in your letters? What are you trying to say to Gilbert about. Like, think about other things or. What'd you say?
[06:31]
E
It was hard, though, because I don't really know what to say. Right. And so for me, it was more about preparing for when I came home, the only thing that I could do is be what I didn't have, and that was a role model that would show me a different direction.
[06:44]
B
Yeah, but what was it like to get the letter when you're a young guy and you're heading towards perhaps a little trouble and you get your letters, the letters from Danny, from prison, what were those like for you to read?
[06:54]
A
I think one of the letters that stood out to me the most was, like, that one sentence. It was, fly high as a brown eagle, soaring over the pyramid.
[07:02]
E
How'd that speak to you?
[07:03]
B
What did it say to you?
[07:05]
A
Oh, yeah, it was independent, freedom, liberty, not having no constraints in society, but mainly reclaiming your identity. Right on.
[07:16]
B
I wanted to ask you, Danny, what was that like for you to, like, figure out how to be a role model for your brothers?
[07:23]
E
It was a learning process.
[07:24]
B
Right.
[07:24]
E
And A very hard one. My mom also put that pressure on me when I came home that my role wasn't just the role of a big brother, but also a father figure. We never really had a father figure, like, relationship with our father. You know what I mean? And so how do I show up?
[07:40]
B
Right. Yeah.
[07:41]
E
If it wasn't for education, I don't know what I would have done. And I think for me, being able to use education as a way to be a role model for my little brother. Even before his arrest, I had brought him up here to Berkeley, and he would go back to la, get in trouble, and then come back.
[07:55]
B
And at the time, you were a student at Berkeley?
[07:56]
E
Yes.
[07:57]
B
Wow. Gilbert, I want to ask you, you talked about being in a gang database. And one of the things I've learned from David Muhammad, who runs the National Institute of Criminal Justice Research, is our culture has the wrong ideas about young people of color. They're not the ones committing most of the crime. And we know all about biases in criminal treatment and so forth, and who they stop in cars and who they shake down and the sentences that people, young men of color get. It's an illusion in some sense. What was it like for you brothers in Pelican Bay? And you're feeling the pull of this life, and then you're told you're in this database as a young human being, what went through your mind?
[08:36]
A
The way how I ended up in that way was really one is my house ended up getting raided because of my nephew. He landed on probation early. And there was a point where I guess there was a violation when they raided the house, they ended up finding narcotics, but I end up taking the rap for the narcotics. But the thing was that there were letters there from my brother and letters from other individuals as well, that I kept contact. And they're like, oh, like you're related with so. And so we had to put you on the gang database. So that's where it kind of like, how does public policy mold your identity? I was already prescribed with these identities already, so eventually that's how that, again, database kind of like, put that gasoline to get jumped into the neighborhood, got validated. And now looking back, it's like anybody could get beyond a gang database.
[09:27]
B
One of the things we know from research on how our lives develop and the stories of our lives is, like, turning points really matter, you know, and we. We all make mistakes. Tell me about the turning point that got you to Berkeley and the work that you do right now.
[09:40]
A
I guess the first relevant turning point Would be when I got arrested. They were trying to charge me for attempted homicide. However, a month later, they ended up reducing a loaded. Receiving stolen property of a loaded firearm. However, during that time period, our father passed away from leukemia. Cancer.
[09:59]
B
I'm sorry.
[10:00]
A
So when that happened, ended getting bailed out my mother, like I bailed you out. The only thing I could do for you now either move with your brother, don't stay here. So I ended up moving with Danny to Berkeley. But during that time period too, like, even when I was incarcerated, he wrote me letters, like stipend, financial aid. I never knew that you could get money at the college, like financial aid and demystifying it. But I guess like the main turning point would be for me is the day when I got accepted to UC Santa Barbara, is the same day that two of my homies, one passed away and the other one lived. So when that happened, it was a lot of emotion and anger and vengeance. And also it was a lot of like emotions of like self hatred, of like, I could have done better for them. But yeah, so there was a threshold point where it's like, do I want to engage in this action or should I just continue my higher education? I had to go through therapy and I'm still going through therapy. But eventually that was a turning point where, you know what I need to continue this higher education. What are the opportunities I could provide for this neighborhood that we don't have to be.
[11:04]
B
Furthermore, devs, I'd love to hear Gilbert, like, your big brother's bringing you up to Berkeley and you know, you're being drawn to la. Like, what are you seeing in Danny that taught you about character and who you could be and how to make decisions in life?
[11:21]
A
One thing I did learn is about his character. Attribution is noble. It's being very noble. We don't see that a lot now. Especially like in this society of like under capitalism. We really don't see a lot of people being very noble at all. Honest, very self reflective.
[11:38]
B
Yeah.
[11:39]
A
And one of the things too is being patient. And that's like one of the things that a lot of people could take for granted. But it also too, it took me some time to recognize his attributes and what are his limitations. But even I have to be honest with myself that he's doing a lot of work for me and I need to take that and I need to be intentional. Like how do I do this internal work for my own self? There's still a lot of growth that I still need to do.
[12:05]
B
We all do.
[12:06]
A
And Especially in these times. But I look forward to it. And I always appreciate people that give me, like, closure and feedback, critical feedback, and that is one of the things that is for growth, you know, for the next chapter.
[12:19]
B
We study in my lab something called Moral beauty, which is other people's courage and character, inspires us. And I have a brother who passed away young that he taught me. I was a grouchy kid and greedy and loved to beat people in Monopoly. I was kind of a not somebody I'm proud of. And my younger brother taught me how to be kind and fight for people who are bullied and stuff. What have you guys learned from each other as brothers?
[12:49]
E
I think we are at a point now where we are developing a healthier relationship. It took a while.
[12:54]
B
Yeah. As it always does.
[12:55]
E
It took a while to get to a point where we can have honest and courageous conversations with each other. And for me, that's a place where I'm excited, where we're at now in our lives, and we've been participating in some of the underground scholars, men healing circles. Our relationship has grown right. In terms of being a lot more intimate with each other, in terms of the things that we tell each. We weren't doing that probably, like, three years ago.
[13:17]
B
Yeah. Well, it's hard for siblings to begin with, and you guys had a lot of obstacles in your way, and that's so good to hear. How about you, Kilbert? What would you say about what you've learned from this big brother over here?
[13:26]
A
I really do put him in the pedestal where, like, to Malcolm X and Che Guevara, because, Danny, what he's doing is, like. It reminds me how Che Guevara try to create this transnational continental solidarity.
[13:37]
B
Right on.
[13:38]
A
It motivates me as well to kick it up a notch. Like, how do I give back to the community now? So it has become as, like, I don't want to say motivational flame of spark, but definitely it is the flaming passion that makes it continue.
[13:51]
B
Well, Danny and Gilbert, it is a privilege to have you on the show. I've found so much inspiration from your work, Danny, over the years.
[13:57]
E
Thank you very much.
[13:58]
B
Thank you.
[14:02]
D
How do our beliefs about social class, opportunity, and success shape the stories we tell about ourselves and others?
[14:11]
C
Trying to recognize the roles that others play in our lives is critical. And when we do so, we're more grateful and appreciative for the help of others. And it also inspires us to play that role in the lives of people who we care about.
[14:25]
D
Dacher's conversation with Bob MacKinnon, the director of the Social Mobility Lab in New York. Up next. Welcome back to the Science of Happiness. I'm Shuka Kalintari. We've been talking with Danny and Gilbert Murray about their relationship as brothers and the power of role modeling. It was a potent conversation where we heard about how Gilbert reclaimed his identity and purpose when public policy attempted to mold the direction of his life. Joining us Next is Bob McKinnon, author, teacher and director of the Social Mobility Lab. Earlier this year, we joined Bob on a walk through Harlem to explore how awe inspiring places and historical figures can influence our sense of belonging and even our belief that change and upward mobility are possible. Today we talk about the crucial need for interdependence and how all of us need a dream team. Here's Dacher and Bob's conversation.
[15:35]
B
Bob, thanks for joining us. It's great to be talking to you again.
[15:37]
C
Oh, my pleasure.
[15:39]
B
When you think about role models and the other forces that you study, what's your big message about moving up in life?
[15:47]
C
So trying to recognize the roles that others play in our lives is critical. And when we do so, it does a couple of things. We're more grateful and appreciative for the help of others, and it also inspires us to play that role in the lives of people who we care about and who maybe we don't even know. And so I think that there is this built in idea of interdependence that is, you know, just not quite lifted up the way it needs to be.
[16:13]
B
One of the ideas that you champion, and I really like it a lot, is the dream team just the this family or set of individuals who's guiding you in your life. We know this literature on positive childhood experiences that as you navigate tough conditions in life and make your way into adulthood, tell us about your own life. Who was your dream team? And then what are the lessons more generally for people to think about the dream team in their lives?
[16:38]
C
Yeah, years ago I was in a room with Jack Schoenkoff at the Child Mind Institute at Harvard and Erwin Redliner, who started the Children's Health Fund. And I've constantly been asking the question, like, how did I end up here and how do people escape poverty? And they were both answered the question very quickly. They were like, well, one of the things that's so important is to have an adult that serves as a buffer, that even in all of the challenges that I had faced or many others as well, there's someone that helps protect you and make sense of that madness. And my mother did that. My brother certainly did that. My sister was a partner in crime, and again, sort of protected me from a lot of the other stuff.
[17:15]
B
One of the things that I really admire about your work, Bob, is you really take head on the American, even capitalist, ideology of success. And there's a paradox here, which is that as you rise often up the class ladder and you end up succeeding well, you tend to explain your successes in terms of individual qualities. How do you challenge that?
[17:36]
C
One of the ways in which that's described is this notion of fundamental attribution error, where we do just naturally and in some ways understandably attribute a lot of our success to our own agency. In a world that sometimes is full of injustice. It helps us sort of make sense of that world. And so I think that the way to have conversations about this is use the word challenge. And I can appreciate that's something we should do. But I think that when we have conversations where we ask people questions about their own lives and have them come to the understanding on their own, when we ask them about their mentors and their role models and the people that help them, I think that it allows for the defensiveness to fall a little bit.
[18:21]
B
Can you walk us through just some three to five simple steps that you would encourage people to think about to enrich this narrative of their lives?
[18:29]
C
I think understanding how you ended up where you are by asking questions about your own life, the things that have contributed to that, I think that is really helpful for you to appreciate there are some things that are beyond your control and to make peace with it. And that's a critical first step. The second is like, you know, understanding, well, how do I really move up in life? Understanding that you do have agency, that you can ask for help, that you should invest in capital, both social and financial, and get those things in place. And I think that there is an ability for us every step of the way, to try to understand and make sense of our journey, where we're going, what's important to us, to invest our time in those things that are important and to all along the way, to be kind to ourselves in the process, to understand there's things we can control and there's things that we can control and to, you know, go through our life with grace towards ourselves and towards others, and to understand that just like success is not something that is largely achieved on our own, the same goes for failure.
[19:39]
B
I want to thank you, Bob, for your work at the Social Mobility Lab. I'm very grateful you're doing the work that you're doing.
[19:45]
C
Thanks. It's always a pleasure talking and, you know, appreciate the work that you're doing and asking the questions that we ask. And these are the kind of conversations that I hope inform people's journeys and add the kinds of things into the world that make the world a better place to walk through.
[20:05]
D
We're exploring another way our perspectives shape our experience. The practice of paying attention to the moments that bring us joy, which is
[20:13]
C
really just a noticing practice, you know, like noticing stuff, paying attention to stuff.
[20:18]
E
What we put our attention on obviously grows.
[20:21]
D
What we study grows how to experience more joy. Next time on the science of happiness. Thanks for listening to the science of happiness. Our associate producers are Emily Brower and Anna Zhou. Our producer is Trick Wen. Our sound designer is Jenny Cataldo of Accompany studios. Our host is Dakota Keltner. I'm your executive producer, Shuka Kalantari. Have a joyful day.

Summary6 min read

Ear Hustle Presents: The Science of Happiness

Date: August 5, 2026

Hosts: Ear Hustle (Nigel Poor & Earlonne Woods), Science of Happiness (Shuka Kalantari, Dacher Keltner)

Guests: Danny Murillo & Gilbert Murillo (Underground Scholars), Bob McKinnon (Social Mobility Lab)

Overview

This special crossover episode connects Ear Hustle’s unique vantage from inside and outside prison life with The Science of Happiness’s focus on positive psychology and well-being. The main theme: How role models and connection drive transformation, especially for those impacted by incarceration.
The episode explores the journey of Danny and Gilbert Murillo—brothers formerly incarcerated in California—detailing how mentorship, family bonds, and supportive communities shape (and sometimes reshape) life trajectories. Their story is intertwined with research and reflections on how our definitions of success and happiness often rely on the people who support and inspire us, not just individual striving.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introduction and Context

[00:01–00:44] Nigel Poor & Earlonne Woods introduce The Science of Happiness and why they chose to share this episode—because of its resonance with stories of resilience, mentors, and transformation threaded throughout Ear Hustle’s season.

2. Danny & Gilbert Murillo: From Incarceration to Inspiration

a. Pathways Through (and Beyond) Prison

[01:21–01:51]
- Danny Murillo founded Underground Scholars, a UC-based program supporting higher education for system-impacted individuals:
  
  "The university is a treasure chest, but you won't know how to find the treasures if you don't have a map." —Danny Murillo (01:27)
- Both brothers now drive policy, research, and advocacy benefiting the formerly incarcerated.
[03:35–04:21]
- Danny describes Underground Scholars’ growth from a reading group in prison to a student-run organization at UC Berkeley. Their initial step was not the grand research center they envisioned but a practical student org—leveraging unexpected funding for real impact.

b. Higher Ed, Policy, and New Identities

[04:21–05:00]
- Gilbert Murillo is studying policy and analytics, presenting major reports and considering a career at the state capitol—the sort of future few would have predicted amid incarceration.
- Mentorship enabled agency:
  
  "But it goes back, because without my brother, I would have not got here." —Gilbert Murillo (05:00)

3. The Brotherly Bond: Letters Across the Divide

[05:14–07:24]
- The brothers barely knew each other as kids; Danny was incarcerated before Gilbert was two.
- Communication began via letters, including time Danny spent in solitary. Their mother’s worry was palpable—"I'm concerned about your little brother. He's going in the wrong direction." (06:07)
- Danny sent Spiderman drawings, later writing to inspire Gilbert away from the streets.
[06:54–07:04]
- Gilbert recalls a pivotal letter:
  
  "Fly high as a brown eagle, soaring over the pyramid."
- For Gilbert, this meant independence, freedom, reclaiming identity.
  
  "It was independent, freedom, liberty, not having no constraints in society, but mainly reclaiming your identity." —Gilbert Murillo (07:04)
[07:22–07:56]
- Danny, unsure how to mentor from prison, resolved:
  
  "The only thing that I could do is be what I didn't have, and that was a role model that would show me a different direction." —Danny Murillo (06:43)

4. Systemic Barriers and Turning Points

[07:56–09:26]
- Gilbert discusses being labeled in a "gang database":
  - Simple associations and events (like possessing his brother's letters) led to police and database involvement.
  - Reflects on how public policy "prescribes" identities for young people of color.
[09:26–10:38]
- Turning points for Gilbert:
  - Arrest and risk of major charges; father’s death; moving in with Danny; exposure to college (and the existence of financial aid); transformative opportunity at UC Santa Barbara.
  "The main turning point would be for me is the day when I got accepted to UC Santa Barbara; it's the same day that two of my homies, one passed away and the other one lived." —Gilbert Murillo (10:22)
  - Therapy and higher education as post-trauma pathways to purpose.

5. Learning From Each Other

[11:03–11:38]
- Gilbert admires Danny’s “noble” character, honesty, and patience, and recognizes his own need for internal growth:
  
  "One thing I did learn is about his character. Attribution is noble. It's being very noble. We don't see that a lot now... But even I have to be honest with myself that he's doing a lot of work for me and I need to take that and I need to be intentional." —Gilbert Murillo (11:20)
[12:18–13:16]
- Danny sees their relationship as finally healthy and honest—after years of distance:
  
  "It took a while to get to a point where we can have honest and courageous conversations with each other... But our relationship has grown." —Danny Murillo (12:53)
[13:26–13:50]
- Gilbert places Danny among his greatest inspirations ("to Malcolm X and Che Guevara"), now motivates himself by those standards.

6. The Broader Context: Social Mobility & the Myth of the Lone Hero

Interview with Bob McKinnon

[14:10–14:25]
- McKinnon underlines the importance of recognizing those who help us:
  
  "When we do so, we're more grateful and appreciative for the help of others. And it also inspires us to play that role in the lives of people who we care about." —Bob McKinnon (14:10)
[15:34–16:37]
- Introduces the "dream team" concept: a web of supportive people critical to overcoming adversity.
- In McKinnon’s view (and as research shows), no one truly "pulls themselves up by their bootstraps" alone.
[17:14–17:36]
- Takes on the American "self-made" myth:
  
  "As you rise... you tend to explain your successes in terms of individual qualities. How do you challenge that?" —Dacher Keltner
[17:36–18:20]
- McKinnon introduces the "fundamental attribution error"—our tendency to over-credit ourselves for success and overlook structural support or help.

Practical Steps for Listeners

[18:29–19:39]
- McKinnon's steps to reframe your life story:
  1. Reflect on how you ended up where you are, appreciating the roles of chance and help.
  2. Recognize your own agency, ask for help, and build social and financial capital.
  3. Be kind to yourself and see both success and failure as collaborative and contextual.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

"The university is a treasure chest, but you won't know how to find the treasures if you don't have a map." —Danny Murillo (01:27)
"If it wasn't for education, I don’t know what I would have done. And I think for me, being able to use education as a way to be a role model for my little brother." —Danny Murillo (07:40)
"Fly high as a brown eagle, soaring over the pyramid." —One of Danny’s letters to Gilbert (06:54)
"One thing I did learn is about his character. Attribution is noble. It's being very noble. We don't see that a lot now." —Gilbert Murillo (11:20)
"When we do so, we're more grateful and appreciative for the help of others. And it also inspires us to play that role in the lives of people who we care about." —Bob McKinnon (14:10)

Important Timestamps & Segments

[01:21] – Danny’s journey, founding Underground Scholars
[04:21] – Gilbert’s pathway into policy, education, and service
[05:14–06:43] – The brothers’ early relationship, the challenge of connection through incarceration
[06:54] – The "brown eagle" letter and its meaning to Gilbert
[09:26–10:38] – Gilbert’s turning points; trauma, opportunity, and deciding to pursue higher ed
[12:18–13:50] – Mutual learning, personal growth, and inspiration between the brothers
[14:10–15:34] – Bob McKinnon on interdependence and gratitude
[17:36–19:39] – Challenging the lone hero narrative, practical steps for reframing success

Tone & Style

The tone is reflective, honest, sometimes raw but ultimately uplifting. The conversation flows with warmth, mutual respect, and a shared sense of ongoing growth—even in the face of personal and systemic adversity.

Summary Conclusion

This episode unpacks the real dynamics of resilience: that success and happiness aren’t solely individual achievements but collective, relational, and often hard-won. Through Danny and Gilbert’s powerful story, and Bob McKinnon’s research, listeners are invited to reconsider the “bootstraps” narrative, recognize the profound impact of role models, and lean into the value of building supportive communities—inside and outside of prison.

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Transcript91 lines

[00:02]
A
Hey, listeners, it's Earlonne and Nigel.
[00:05]
B
We wanted to introduce you to another podcast. This one is from our colleagues at prx.
[00:10]
A
It's called the Science of Happiness.
[00:12]
C
And as you can maybe guess from
[00:14]
A
the name, it explores what science can tell us about living a happier, more meaningful life.
[00:20]
B
We thought Ear Hustle listeners might be especially interested in this episode, which tells the story of two brothers.
[00:26]
A
Boy.
[00:26]
B
Both have done time in California prisons today. Their work helps change policy around incarceration and supports formerly incarcerated people pursuing higher education.
[00:36]
A
The conversation actually picks up on something. A few of our episodes this past season touched on the different people who might become mentors.
[00:44]
B
While you're inside, we hope you enjoy it. You can find the Science of Happiness wherever you get your podcasts.
[00:53]
D
Welcome to the Science of Happiness. I'm Shuka Kalantari. Today we're talking about the people who change the way we see ourselves and our future. The people who encourage us, inspire us and help us see what's possible. Danny and Gilbert Murillo's story brings that idea to life. Danny is the co founder of Underground Scholars, a program that creates pathways to higher education for incarcerated, formerly incarcerated, and system impacted people.
[01:21]
E
The university is a treasure chest, but you won't know how to find the treasures if you don't have a map.
[01:27]
D
For more than a decade, he's helped people pursue new possibilities and move forward when public policy has left them behind.
[01:34]
E
The only thing that I could do is be what I didn't have and that was a role model that would show me a different direction.
[01:41]
D
His brother, Gilbert Murillo, is a policy advocate and researcher who draws on his own experience with incarceration to reform California's criminal justice system.
[01:51]
A
Going through this higher education, I fell in love with data analytics where, like, how can we use quantitative data to challenge certain policies that promote white supremacy or promote displacement? And it goes back because without my brother, I would have not got here.
[02:07]
D
We also hear from Bob McKinnon, the founder of the Social Mobility Lab, about how role models can also expand our definition of success from something we earn on our own to something that's made
[02:18]
C
possible through connection in certain cultures and certainly ours. There's this idea that you don't need anyone, that you can pull yourself up from your bootstraps, which is physically impossible if you know what a bootstrap is.
[02:32]
D
We'll explore all of that and more coming up. Welcome back to the Science of Happiness. I'm Shuka Kalintari. Today on our show, we're talking about the importance and impact of role models. Research shows that when young people have someone to look up to, they're more engaged in school, they feel happier and more confident and make safer choices. But role models aren't just for kids. They matter throughout our lives, especially when we're navigating barriers that can make the path forward harder to see. Studies reveal that when someone who shares your story reaches their goals, it changes what feels within reach, strengthening our sense of agency. That's what Danny Murillo did for his little brother, Gilbert. Here's our conversation with our host, Decker Keltner.
[03:28]
B
Thanks for taking time out of your busy days to be here.
[03:31]
E
Thank you very much for the invitation. Appreciate it.
[03:33]
A
Likewise. I really appreciate it being here.
[03:35]
B
I'd love to start with you, Danny, and just tell us about Underground Scholars. I remember reading about it in that New Yorker article, 2016, and it just blew me off the map. What was your journey there?
[03:47]
E
My educational journey started while in prison. When I got to Berkeley, we started as a reading group, and out of that grew the aspirations of wanting to create a space for formerly incarcerated students. The first thing that we created was a student organization. And that was, like, furthest from the thing that we thought about ever creating. Like, we wanted to create a research center, a public service center, a policy center, and, like, never thought about a student Org until we heard that there was $135,000 on the table. We applied, we got it, and we opened up space at Stiles hall. And we've been there ever since. Right? 2014. But we've grown since then.
[04:22]
B
So, Gilbert, man, you're studying at the Goldman School of Public Policy. What are you interested in?
[04:26]
A
I fell in love with a lot of data analytics. And I realized that a lot of people of color, we don't know so much about quantitative data. I just presented an 80 page report to my client, the California Election Office. When I presented that report, my client was like, I like this report. I could get you a job at the Sacramento State Capitol.
[04:44]
B
Congratulations.
[04:45]
A
Yes, thank you. And he told me, look, I don't want to put a disco ball right in front of you, but you do have choices and you should take pride of that report that you had made. But luckily, I spoke with the director of Underground Scholar, Azadeh. She gave me, like, Clary, like, maybe you should do the Sacramento.
[05:00]
B
Yeah.
[05:01]
A
Those two years and build up those connections, build up the political campaign, then go back to your neighborhood and run for the district representative. Then you start moving forward from there. And it goes back because without my brother, I would have not Got here.
[05:14]
B
Tell us what you guys were like as kids. Like, what was your relationship like growing up?
[05:18]
E
We didn't have a relationship, unfortunately. Gilbert was born April 21, 1994, and I got incarcerated the last couple of weeks of March of 1996, and I went in for 15 years. I was supposed to serve 12. I ended up serving about 13 years and 10 months. So when I came home, Gilbert was about 16 years old. some point, though, I started communicating with him. I remember always sending him and my nephews Spider man drawings. I was placed in solitary confinement in 2003 for the remainder of my sentence. And it was in solitary confinement where you could hear the desperation in my mom's letters. There was a point where she started writing to me and like, yo, I'm concerned about your little brother. He's going in the wrong direction. And then I started noticing it because some of the letters just changed. I remember first the letters were like, oh, I'm in boxing club. I'm learning how to rap. I'm writing raps. And that excited me, you know? And then, you know, next thing you know, like, oh, you know, I'm out here in the streets now, you know, and I can't wait to get out. We're going to take control. And I'm like, nah, that's not what I want to do, you know?
[06:20]
B
Yeah, you're inside and prison. Pelican Bay, right?
[06:23]
E
Yeah.
[06:24]
B
How are you communicating in your letters? What are you trying to say to Gilbert about. Like, think about other things or. What'd you say?
[06:31]
E
It was hard, though, because I don't really know what to say. Right. And so for me, it was more about preparing for when I came home, the only thing that I could do is be what I didn't have, and that was a role model that would show me a different direction.
[06:44]
B
Yeah, but what was it like to get the letter when you're a young guy and you're heading towards perhaps a little trouble and you get your letters, the letters from Danny, from prison, what were those like for you to read?
[06:54]
A
I think one of the letters that stood out to me the most was, like, that one sentence. It was, fly high as a brown eagle, soaring over the pyramid.
[07:02]
E
How'd that speak to you?
[07:03]
B
What did it say to you?
[07:05]
A
Oh, yeah, it was independent, freedom, liberty, not having no constraints in society, but mainly reclaiming your identity. Right on.
[07:16]
B
I wanted to ask you, Danny, what was that like for you to, like, figure out how to be a role model for your brothers?
[07:23]
E
It was a learning process.
[07:24]
B
Right.
[07:24]
E
And A very hard one. My mom also put that pressure on me when I came home that my role wasn't just the role of a big brother, but also a father figure. We never really had a father figure, like, relationship with our father. You know what I mean? And so how do I show up?
[07:40]
B
Right. Yeah.
[07:41]
E
If it wasn't for education, I don't know what I would have done. And I think for me, being able to use education as a way to be a role model for my little brother. Even before his arrest, I had brought him up here to Berkeley, and he would go back to la, get in trouble, and then come back.
[07:55]
B
And at the time, you were a student at Berkeley?
[07:56]
E
Yes.
[07:57]
B
Wow. Gilbert, I want to ask you, you talked about being in a gang database. And one of the things I've learned from David Muhammad, who runs the National Institute of Criminal Justice Research, is our culture has the wrong ideas about young people of color. They're not the ones committing most of the crime. And we know all about biases in criminal treatment and so forth, and who they stop in cars and who they shake down and the sentences that people, young men of color get. It's an illusion in some sense. What was it like for you brothers in Pelican Bay? And you're feeling the pull of this life, and then you're told you're in this database as a young human being, what went through your mind?
[08:36]
A
The way how I ended up in that way was really one is my house ended up getting raided because of my nephew. He landed on probation early. And there was a point where I guess there was a violation when they raided the house, they ended up finding narcotics, but I end up taking the rap for the narcotics. But the thing was that there were letters there from my brother and letters from other individuals as well, that I kept contact. And they're like, oh, like you're related with so. And so we had to put you on the gang database. So that's where it kind of like, how does public policy mold your identity? I was already prescribed with these identities already, so eventually that's how that, again, database kind of like, put that gasoline to get jumped into the neighborhood, got validated. And now looking back, it's like anybody could get beyond a gang database.
[09:27]
B
One of the things we know from research on how our lives develop and the stories of our lives is, like, turning points really matter, you know, and we. We all make mistakes. Tell me about the turning point that got you to Berkeley and the work that you do right now.
[09:40]
A
I guess the first relevant turning point Would be when I got arrested. They were trying to charge me for attempted homicide. However, a month later, they ended up reducing a loaded. Receiving stolen property of a loaded firearm. However, during that time period, our father passed away from leukemia. Cancer.
[09:59]
B
I'm sorry.
[10:00]
A
So when that happened, ended getting bailed out my mother, like I bailed you out. The only thing I could do for you now either move with your brother, don't stay here. So I ended up moving with Danny to Berkeley. But during that time period too, like, even when I was incarcerated, he wrote me letters, like stipend, financial aid. I never knew that you could get money at the college, like financial aid and demystifying it. But I guess like the main turning point would be for me is the day when I got accepted to UC Santa Barbara, is the same day that two of my homies, one passed away and the other one lived. So when that happened, it was a lot of emotion and anger and vengeance. And also it was a lot of like emotions of like self hatred, of like, I could have done better for them. But yeah, so there was a threshold point where it's like, do I want to engage in this action or should I just continue my higher education? I had to go through therapy and I'm still going through therapy. But eventually that was a turning point where, you know what I need to continue this higher education. What are the opportunities I could provide for this neighborhood that we don't have to be.
[11:04]
B
Furthermore, devs, I'd love to hear Gilbert, like, your big brother's bringing you up to Berkeley and you know, you're being drawn to la. Like, what are you seeing in Danny that taught you about character and who you could be and how to make decisions in life?
[11:21]
A
One thing I did learn is about his character. Attribution is noble. It's being very noble. We don't see that a lot now. Especially like in this society of like under capitalism. We really don't see a lot of people being very noble at all. Honest, very self reflective.
[11:38]
B
Yeah.
[11:39]
A
And one of the things too is being patient. And that's like one of the things that a lot of people could take for granted. But it also too, it took me some time to recognize his attributes and what are his limitations. But even I have to be honest with myself that he's doing a lot of work for me and I need to take that and I need to be intentional. Like how do I do this internal work for my own self? There's still a lot of growth that I still need to do.
[12:05]
B
We all do.
[12:06]
A
And Especially in these times. But I look forward to it. And I always appreciate people that give me, like, closure and feedback, critical feedback, and that is one of the things that is for growth, you know, for the next chapter.
[12:19]
B
We study in my lab something called Moral beauty, which is other people's courage and character, inspires us. And I have a brother who passed away young that he taught me. I was a grouchy kid and greedy and loved to beat people in Monopoly. I was kind of a not somebody I'm proud of. And my younger brother taught me how to be kind and fight for people who are bullied and stuff. What have you guys learned from each other as brothers?
[12:49]
E
I think we are at a point now where we are developing a healthier relationship. It took a while.
[12:54]
B
Yeah. As it always does.
[12:55]
E
It took a while to get to a point where we can have honest and courageous conversations with each other. And for me, that's a place where I'm excited, where we're at now in our lives, and we've been participating in some of the underground scholars, men healing circles. Our relationship has grown right. In terms of being a lot more intimate with each other, in terms of the things that we tell each. We weren't doing that probably, like, three years ago.
[13:17]
B
Yeah. Well, it's hard for siblings to begin with, and you guys had a lot of obstacles in your way, and that's so good to hear. How about you, Kilbert? What would you say about what you've learned from this big brother over here?
[13:26]
A
I really do put him in the pedestal where, like, to Malcolm X and Che Guevara, because, Danny, what he's doing is, like. It reminds me how Che Guevara try to create this transnational continental solidarity.
[13:37]
B
Right on.
[13:38]
A
It motivates me as well to kick it up a notch. Like, how do I give back to the community now? So it has become as, like, I don't want to say motivational flame of spark, but definitely it is the flaming passion that makes it continue.
[13:51]
B
Well, Danny and Gilbert, it is a privilege to have you on the show. I've found so much inspiration from your work, Danny, over the years.
[13:57]
E
Thank you very much.
[13:58]
B
Thank you.
[14:02]
D
How do our beliefs about social class, opportunity, and success shape the stories we tell about ourselves and others?
[14:11]
C
Trying to recognize the roles that others play in our lives is critical. And when we do so, we're more grateful and appreciative for the help of others. And it also inspires us to play that role in the lives of people who we care about.
[14:25]
D
Dacher's conversation with Bob MacKinnon, the director of the Social Mobility Lab in New York. Up next. Welcome back to the Science of Happiness. I'm Shuka Kalintari. We've been talking with Danny and Gilbert Murray about their relationship as brothers and the power of role modeling. It was a potent conversation where we heard about how Gilbert reclaimed his identity and purpose when public policy attempted to mold the direction of his life. Joining us Next is Bob McKinnon, author, teacher and director of the Social Mobility Lab. Earlier this year, we joined Bob on a walk through Harlem to explore how awe inspiring places and historical figures can influence our sense of belonging and even our belief that change and upward mobility are possible. Today we talk about the crucial need for interdependence and how all of us need a dream team. Here's Dacher and Bob's conversation.
[15:35]
B
Bob, thanks for joining us. It's great to be talking to you again.
[15:37]
C
Oh, my pleasure.
[15:39]
B
When you think about role models and the other forces that you study, what's your big message about moving up in life?
[15:47]
C
So trying to recognize the roles that others play in our lives is critical. And when we do so, it does a couple of things. We're more grateful and appreciative for the help of others, and it also inspires us to play that role in the lives of people who we care about and who maybe we don't even know. And so I think that there is this built in idea of interdependence that is, you know, just not quite lifted up the way it needs to be.
[16:13]
B
One of the ideas that you champion, and I really like it a lot, is the dream team just the this family or set of individuals who's guiding you in your life. We know this literature on positive childhood experiences that as you navigate tough conditions in life and make your way into adulthood, tell us about your own life. Who was your dream team? And then what are the lessons more generally for people to think about the dream team in their lives?
[16:38]
C
Yeah, years ago I was in a room with Jack Schoenkoff at the Child Mind Institute at Harvard and Erwin Redliner, who started the Children's Health Fund. And I've constantly been asking the question, like, how did I end up here and how do people escape poverty? And they were both answered the question very quickly. They were like, well, one of the things that's so important is to have an adult that serves as a buffer, that even in all of the challenges that I had faced or many others as well, there's someone that helps protect you and make sense of that madness. And my mother did that. My brother certainly did that. My sister was a partner in crime, and again, sort of protected me from a lot of the other stuff.
[17:15]
B
One of the things that I really admire about your work, Bob, is you really take head on the American, even capitalist, ideology of success. And there's a paradox here, which is that as you rise often up the class ladder and you end up succeeding well, you tend to explain your successes in terms of individual qualities. How do you challenge that?
[17:36]
C
One of the ways in which that's described is this notion of fundamental attribution error, where we do just naturally and in some ways understandably attribute a lot of our success to our own agency. In a world that sometimes is full of injustice. It helps us sort of make sense of that world. And so I think that the way to have conversations about this is use the word challenge. And I can appreciate that's something we should do. But I think that when we have conversations where we ask people questions about their own lives and have them come to the understanding on their own, when we ask them about their mentors and their role models and the people that help them, I think that it allows for the defensiveness to fall a little bit.
[18:21]
B
Can you walk us through just some three to five simple steps that you would encourage people to think about to enrich this narrative of their lives?
[18:29]
C
I think understanding how you ended up where you are by asking questions about your own life, the things that have contributed to that, I think that is really helpful for you to appreciate there are some things that are beyond your control and to make peace with it. And that's a critical first step. The second is like, you know, understanding, well, how do I really move up in life? Understanding that you do have agency, that you can ask for help, that you should invest in capital, both social and financial, and get those things in place. And I think that there is an ability for us every step of the way, to try to understand and make sense of our journey, where we're going, what's important to us, to invest our time in those things that are important and to all along the way, to be kind to ourselves in the process, to understand there's things we can control and there's things that we can control and to, you know, go through our life with grace towards ourselves and towards others, and to understand that just like success is not something that is largely achieved on our own, the same goes for failure.
[19:39]
B
I want to thank you, Bob, for your work at the Social Mobility Lab. I'm very grateful you're doing the work that you're doing.
[19:45]
C
Thanks. It's always a pleasure talking and, you know, appreciate the work that you're doing and asking the questions that we ask. And these are the kind of conversations that I hope inform people's journeys and add the kinds of things into the world that make the world a better place to walk through.
[20:05]
D
We're exploring another way our perspectives shape our experience. The practice of paying attention to the moments that bring us joy, which is
[20:13]
C
really just a noticing practice, you know, like noticing stuff, paying attention to stuff.
[20:18]
E
What we put our attention on obviously grows.
[20:21]
D
What we study grows how to experience more joy. Next time on the science of happiness. Thanks for listening to the science of happiness. Our associate producers are Emily Brower and Anna Zhou. Our producer is Trick Wen. Our sound designer is Jenny Cataldo of Accompany studios. Our host is Dakota Keltner. I'm your executive producer, Shuka Kalantari. Have a joyful day.