No Other Word for It

Summary

Ear Hustle: "No Other Word for It" – A Deep Dive into DUI-Related Incarceration

Episode Overview

In the poignant episode titled "No Other Word for It," hosts Earlonne Woods and Nigel Poor explore the complex and often overlooked narratives of women incarcerated for DUI-related homicides. This episode delves into the personal stories of these women, shedding light on the psychological turmoil, societal stigma, and the arduous journey towards acceptance and accountability.

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Personal Stories and Tragedy

The episode opens with Constance, also known as Olivia, recounting the tragic night that led to her incarceration. At [05:43], Constance narrates:

“I was on probation for my first DUI and I got 45 years to... I killed three people. And I've been here almost 10 years.”

Constance shares the harrowing details of a car accident that resulted in the loss of her sister and best friend, an event that abruptly dismantled her aspirations of further education, marriage, and motherhood. Her story exemplifies the sudden and life-altering consequences of a momentary lapse in judgment.

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Themes of Stigma and Identity in Prison

As the episode progresses, the hosts introduce Grace and Jessica, two other women serving long sentences for similar DUI-related crimes. Through their interviews, the episode highlights the unique challenges these women face within the prison environment.

At [21:15], Grace reflects on her sense of belonging:

“I think you're right. And, you know, I've never felt like I belonged anywhere, but it's curious what..."

Grace articulates the feeling of being an outlier in a prison setting predominantly housing individuals convicted of more severe crimes. This sentiment is echoed by other inmates, who often perceive DUI offenders as different or even undeserving of the same punitive measures.

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Psychological Impact and Grief

A significant portion of the episode delves into the emotional and psychological struggles these women endure. Constance candidly discusses her grief and the profound sense of loss she feels not only for the victims but also for the life she once envisioned.

At [11:18], Constance shares:

“I wanted to die. I wanted to die. I don't remember how many days it was, but I stayed in that room in the darkness...”

This raw admission underscores the deep emotional scars left by their actions and the ongoing battle with self-forgiveness and acceptance.

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Acceptance and Accountability

A central theme of the episode is the struggle these women face in accepting their actions as murder. The lack of intent complicates their relationship with their crimes, making it difficult to fully embrace accountability.

At [32:52], Constance emphasizes:

“Yes, I do.”

Despite the absence of premeditation, Constance affirms her role in the tragic outcome, reflecting a critical step towards personal accountability. Similarly, Jessica confronts the harsh reality of her actions:

“I killed somebody. This man is gone. I took somebody's child.”

These acknowledgments are pivotal in their journeys toward understanding and accepting the gravity of their crimes.

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Host Reflections and Broader Insights

Throughout the episode, both Earlonne and Nigel introspect on their own behaviors and societal norms. Nigel shares a moment of vulnerability at [35:50]:

“But in that way, there's so many people who are guilty of this crime that nothing ever happens to them.”

This reflection challenges listeners to consider the broader implications of DUI offenses and the societal tendency to overlook the severe consequences they can entail.

Earlonne further comments on the cultural aspects of DUI:

“It's a vicious cycle. Because they do it time and time again and nothing happens. So they develop this thought that it will never happen to me.”

This insight highlights the cyclical nature of DUI offenses and the critical need for more stringent consequences to deter repeat offenses.

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Conclusion

"No Other Word for It" serves as a compelling exploration of the nuanced experiences of women incarcerated for DUI-related homicides. Through heartfelt narratives and candid discussions, Ear Hustle sheds light on the profound emotional and psychological impacts, the struggle with identity and stigma, and the essential journey towards accountability and healing. This episode not only humanizes those behind bars but also invites listeners to reflect on their perceptions and the broader societal approach to DUI offenses.

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Notable Quotes

• Constance (Olivia) at [05:43]: “I was on probation for my first DUI and I got 45 years to... I killed three people. And I've been here almost 10 years.”

• Grace at [21:15]: “I think you're right. And, you know, I've never felt like I belonged anywhere, but it's curious what...”

• Constance at [11:18]: “I wanted to die. I wanted to die. I don't remember how many days it was, but I stayed in that room in the darkness...”

• Constance at [32:52]: “Yes, I do.”

• Jessica at [34:03]: “When I first got into my accident, I'm like, I'm from East Oakland. I know what murder is...”

• Nigel Poor at [35:50]: “But in that way, there's so many people who are guilty of this crime that nothing ever happens to them.”

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For More Information

To delve deeper into the stories and ongoing discussions from Ear Hustle, visit earhustlesq.com and explore their range of episodes that bring incarcerated voices to the forefront.

Transcript

[Earlonne Woods]

Earlonne and Nigel here, thank you so much to everyone who has already donated to our fundraiser.

[Nigel Poor]

Yes, we really appreciate it and we love reading the comments from donors and I hope people know how meaningful it is for us when we get letters and comments from listeners. In fact, once a month, the whole team sits down and we read all the letters that we've gotten and sometimes we even write back.

[Earlonne Woods]

Yep.

[Nigel Poor]

And you know this, Earlonne, we've been getting more and more mail from prisons.

[Earlonne Woods]

Yep. Because Ear Hustle is now on tablets and we're in in 1200 different jails and prisons. So, I mean, just yesterday we were reading a letter sent by a guy who was in the shoe, which is solitary confinement, and he was looking for stuff that he can listen to for free on his tablet and he stumbled across Ear Hustle and binged the whole.

[Nigel Poor]

Catalog, the whole like 15 seasons. It is amazing. And honestly, none of this work would be possible without support from listeners on the outside.

[Earlonne Woods]

This year, everyone who donates will be involved, invited to our virtual party on June 11th. And if you can become a monthly donor at $10 or more, we'll give you access to Ear Hustle plus, which includes ad free episodes and bonus content.

[Nigel Poor]

Every single gift helps us reach our goal of 1,000 donors.

[Earlonne Woods]

And we mean every gift, no matter the amount. Renee Albee, a dedicated listener in Austin, Texas, has a challenge for our listeners. On a tight budget, she's doubling small gifts to Ear hustle. Head to earhustlesq.com to learn more about her challenge and donate.

[Nigel Poor]

That's earhustlesq.com donate and Renee, we cannot wait to see you in Austin when we're on our live tour.

[Earlonne Woods]

Yep. Big thanks from all of us to all of you. This episode of Ear Hustle is brought to you by Progressive Insurance.

[Nigel Poor]

Did you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash?

[Earlonne Woods]

Progressive makes it easy to see if you can save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states. Before we get to the episode, we at Ear Hustle are gearing up for something big this year.

[Nigel Poor]

That's right, an all new 11 city tour.

[Earlonne Woods]

Yep. You and I, along with some special guests will be live on stage with music, storytelling and never before seen visuals. And I'm so excited, Nige. Let's see if we can remember all the stops on our roadshow.

[Nigel Poor]

All right, so I know we kick it off in Nashville on August 4th.

[Earlonne Woods]

Yep.

[Nigel Poor]

Then Atlanta and Durham, Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, Chicago, and St. Paul.

[Earlonne Woods]

Yep. Then we head over to Iowa City, Lawrence, Kansas, Dallas, and then we wrapping it all up in Austin, Texas on August 21st. It's going to be a wild ride.

[Nigel Poor]

Oh, man, it is going to be fantastic. Tickets are on [e-mail] tour and guess what? What?

[Earlonne Woods]

They'll be able to get autographed books from us.

[Nigel Poor]

That's right.

[Earlonne Woods]

Let's start signing now. On with the episode.

[Nigel Poor]

This is Amy Standen, Ear Hustle's editor. This episode of Ear Hustle contains language.

[Olivia]

And content that may not be suitable.

[Nigel Poor]

For all listeners, including a mention of suicide.

[Olivia]

Listener discretion is advised.

[Earlonne Woods]

Walking around the yard, can you spot a person that has a DUI case?

[Jessica]

They look innocent.

[Olivia]

They say that we're bougie, we're well put together, or we're stuck up.

[Grace]

You know, you're uppity or you're snobby.

[Olivia]

They think they're better than. Or we're entitled.

[Nigel Poor]

She's just a little different.

[Olivia]

Like a little more softer, a little more.

[Grace]

We're all white. We are. We are all like white girls.

[Olivia]

No tattoos, blonde hair. There's so many stigmas.

[Earlonne Woods]

So being in here with dui, is it like people feel that you're technically not a criminal?

[Jessica]

Yeah, it's like you don't fit in. And it's not like a fit in.

[Nigel Poor]

Type thing, but you don't. You're really not a criminal.

[Jessica]

You're here for a pygmy case, so to speak.

[Nigel Poor]

Even if it was a DUI with.

[Jessica]

Manslaughter, you're just your wet wash.

[Nigel Poor]

Earlonne. This is new to me. Pygmy case. Have you heard that before?

[Earlonne Woods]

No. That's new to me too. I mean, I think I know what pygmy mean, but.

[Nigel Poor]

Right. Like small.

[Earlonne Woods]

Yeah, it's like a little case.

[Nigel Poor]

All right, we are definitely gonna have to figure out what that means and we'll report back on it.

[Earlonne Woods]

But yeah, she's talking about DUI cases. Cases where someone was driving under the influence and if they're in prison, they probably killed somebody.

[Constance]

Yeah.

[Nigel Poor]

But somehow I was like, never really curious about them until we started going into women's prisons.

[Earlonne Woods]

Yeah. Because we met a lot of them and they told us that they kind of had their own culture in there.

[Nigel Poor]

Yeah. And that made me really curious about these women. Like, I wanted to get to know them better. And doing that and hearing their stories, I actually think for everyone on the team, this episode turned out to be a really eye opening experience. I'M Nigel Poor.

[Earlonne Woods]

And I'm Earlonne woods. And this is ear hustle from PRX's Radiotopia.

[Nigel Poor]

Hey, my friend, are you a little sick today, man?

[Earlonne Woods]

My nose is running. I don't know where it's going, but it's running okay.

[Constance]

It was two months after my 21st birthday and the intention was to go out with my sister and my best friend to just let off some steam.

[Earlonne Woods]

This is Olivia. She's incarcerated at the California Institution for Women in Chino.

[Nigel Poor]

And we had some reservations about starting with this story because it is so extreme.

[Earlonne Woods]

Right.

[Nigel Poor]

But in other ways it's actually kind of typical. Did you have any premonition that something negative was going to come of that evening?

[Constance]

Oh, no, not at all, not at all.

[Nigel Poor]

Before she came to prison, Olivia was living sort of a typical young 21 year old life, right? She had a job taking care of developmentally disabled people. She had friends, you know, she was, yeah, growing up.

[Constance]

I was already signed up to go into a bachelor's of science in nursing and so I was looking forward to starting that. And right before my incarceration, I actually had a son. I wanted to expand my family, I wanted to get married. Like I had this whole vision of how my life would be. My mother and I were very close. I'm the youngest of seven. I had good relationship with all of my brothers and sisters and you know, life was good. And then a situation happened at home. You know, I was a new mom and there was something that I found out that I just, I couldn't deal with. And so for a 21 year old, the solution is to go out and party with your friends. You know, to go out and make yourself feel better by a night of dancing and drinking and whatever. I learned later that my car entered the wrong way on the freeway and it was in a head on collision with another car. When I did finally wake up, I still didn't know the impact of what I did. My brain was bleeding, my femur was broken, my bladder was punctured, my wrist was broken, my eyelid was cut. A lot of the time they told me, you know, you shouldn't be alive right now.

[Nigel Poor]

So you must have known something very serious had happened but you didn't know.

[Constance]

I knew something big happened, but I didn't know the full extent of it.

[Earlonne Woods]

So at this point, Olivia was in what you call like a secure hospital. It's like a floor in a regular hospital, but it's just for incarcerated individuals. You know, it might have bars on the windows, might Have a guard in front of the elevator. You just can't come and go as you please, right?

[Constance]

Everything was just like, oh, just hold on. Just wait, and then we'll figure it all out. It's going to be okay. I was asking and asking, like, where's my sister? You know, where's Maya? And then my mom, every time she would just say, baby, she's at home, and then change the subject.

[Nigel Poor]

Do you remember things that you were speculating on or were you in such a weird state that you weren't even trying to figure out or piece together what had happened?

[Constance]

I. It was the meds. And then also just maybe not wanting to know, Just wanting to hold onto the hope that any day now, I can go home.

[Earlonne Woods]

It was a month before Olivia found out what had happened that night. She went out with her sister and her best friend.

[Constance]

My mom, she was visiting one day, and there's, like, a gate, and she can sit in a chair, and we can, like, fit our pinkies through the little. Through the little holes. And she just. She broke the news to me. Then I found out that my sister, my best friend were gone, that I was the cause of their death.

[Nigel Poor]

And you had just been out for, like, a fun evening together.

[Constance]

I don't want to get emotional, but I still remember, like, the joy in my sister and my best friend and my. Like, we were so happy to just spend that time together. They just wanted. They just wanted me to have a good time.

[Nigel Poor]

Yeah.

[Earlonne Woods]

Yeah.

[Nigel Poor]

Sorry, we don't have any proper. Phoenix.

[Earlonne Woods]

Just give her a second.

[Nigel Poor]

Yeah. Definitely.

[Constance]

Waking up to find out that you've. You know, it was. You were just living your regular life, and. And to just wake up, and then here you are, labeled as a murderer, you know, with no intent, no premeditation, no any of that. It's a unique experience.

[Nigel Poor]

Do you think your mom was trying to figure out how to prepare you to hear this information?

[Constance]

I definitely do.

[Nigel Poor]

I mean, she had so much to mourn, too. Her daughter and what was happening with you.

[Constance]

Yeah.

[Nigel Poor]

She.

[Constance]

An incredible woman.

[Nigel Poor]

Yeah, sounds like it.

[Constance]

After she told me that she was gone and then Kristen was gone. I'll be honest, you guys. I wanted to die. I wanted to die. I don't remember how many days it was, but I stayed in that room in the darkness, like, I would refuse my food from the nurses. And then finally, my mom told me the rest, that there was this family in the other car, and they all did not survive as well.

[Earlonne Woods]

I mean, yeah, I would think that that would be a heavy burden oh, it is.

[Constance]

Every day. You know, every day it is.

[Nigel Poor]

In total, Olivia killed six people. There were four people in the other car. Three generations of one family. And in Olivia's, her sister and her.

[Earlonne Woods]

Best friend, she was sentenced to 30 years to life.

[Nigel Poor]

And this is a tough story to open with, I mean, because it's so tragic, but it also encapsulates what's uncomfortable about doing an episode on this crime in particular, which is that a lot of people have driven drunk or under the influence, and there's been no consequences at all.

[Earlonne Woods]

Yeah. I think this type of crime is more relatable to a lot of people than other crimes we've talked about on the show. I mean, getting into your car after you've been partying is, you know, I've been there.

[Nigel Poor]

Yeah, me too. And it's sort of embarrassing to admit that. All right, so how have you been?

[Olivia]

I've been good. Oh, gosh. Okay.

[Constance]

It's been a long time.

[Olivia]

It's been a long time.

[Earlonne Woods]

This is a voice listeners first heard in an episode we did back in season 12.

[Nigel Poor]

Boy, that feels like a long time ago, doesn't it? Ooh, yeah. So it was the first time we went to the Central California Women's Facility, and we were just talking to a bunch of women for a variety of reasons, basically, to get to know the place. And one of those people we talked to was Grace. And at this point, Grace had pretty much just arrived at ccwf.

[Earlonne Woods]

She was serving a life sentence for a DUI crime, and she was a deer in headlights.

[Nigel Poor]

Totally. So here's a little clip from that episode.

[Olivia]

This whole prison situation has definitely been full of fear for me.

[Nigel Poor]

What are the things that you're most fearful of?

[Olivia]

I mean, sometimes I get fearful of just the way that I talk. I definitely have that Valley girl, whatever. So I've definitely put on different masks and different fronts of trying to be someone I'm not in jail and in here and just kind of keeping to myself and things like that in order to prevent myself from being bullied or from being vulnerable.

[Earlonne Woods]

Last year, Grace got transferred from the Central California Women's Facility, which is a much bigger prison, to California Institution for Women, which is closer to where she's from.

[Nigel Poor]

Yeah. And when we saw her this time, Earlonne, didn't she seem kind of, like, older, a little bit more mature?

[Earlonne Woods]

Right.

[Nigel Poor]

And just more comfortable in general with where she was?

[Earlonne Woods]

Happens with time.

[Nigel Poor]

Yeah.

[Olivia]

I listened to the last one last night, and I was like, wow, I was so fearful. I was so, like, just so new to all of this, and I've definitely grown a lot through the process.

[Nigel Poor]

So when you see new people come in here that are serving DUI sentences and they're young, how do they look to you? Do you recognize them?

[Olivia]

Oh, I have such a soft spot. I want to be able to just be that friend that kind of just helps them kind of guide through, you know, what were the reasons that led me here. You're in prison. Why not get deep?

[Nigel Poor]

I can imagine that, you know, at first, when you're serving time for this crime, you're going through all these stages. Like, you're angry, you're shocked, you're confused.

[Earlonne Woods]

Yeah. You know, there's probably also a period of, like, you know, why me? You know, so many people drink and drive. Why am I the one that ended up in prison for it?

[Nigel Poor]

I can totally imagine being stuck in that for quite a while.

[Earlonne Woods]

But once you got your head around it and you're ready, you know, you start doing what a lot of other people are doing in prison. You know, you start going to groups, you start working on yourself, going deep, as she says.

[Olivia]

I was able to join a group here called Responsibly Driven. Our first lesson is on honesty. So just being able to admit, hey, I've done this. This is what this looks like in my life. I think that DUI offenders can also get a lot of shit when they first become incarcerated. They think they're better than or they're different or things like that. And I'm all about just breaking those stigmas. I was just in anger management and trauma and substance abuse groups this morning, and it's like, we all have experienced something that has caused us to be in the shoes that we are today.

[Nigel Poor]

I can imagine because of how suddenly their lives changed. There's also this stage of grief that people are dealing with. I'm sure that happens for a lot of people in prison, but there's something specific about the suddenness of this crime that has to be so disorienting.

[Earlonne Woods]

Yeah. You know, you had this one idea about how your life was going to go, and then, poof, is gone.

[Nigel Poor]

Yeah. So what do you think you're mourning the most right now?

[Olivia]

For the past six months, I've definitely just been grieving social life. I've, you know, been blessed enough to have a very, like, core group of friends for a long time. And now those friends are getting married and people are moving and people are, you know, getting their masters and going to grad school and doing all of the things, starting their Career and I'm in prison. One of my best friends who's getting married, she made it a point that she needed to come fly out here to see me before she got married. And that felt really special. You know, I may not be able to be a part of the wedding or be her maid of honor like we've dreamed of since we were little kids, but we made it our own for what it is today. So is it something that I grieve with my best friends getting married and people dating and things like that? Absolutely. I'm human. And I definitely have those thoughts of, you know, will I ever get married? Will that ever be a possibility in the future for me?

[Nigel Poor]

A lot of times I think that relationships are really based on proximity and shared experience. So the longer you are away from your friends, the thinner that that connection will become.

[Olivia]

Do.

[Nigel Poor]

Do you think about that?

[Olivia]

I do. I do.

[Earlonne Woods]

Cares. Do you fit in here?

[Olivia]

That's a tough one. Hold on, Let me think about the best way to answer this.

[Nigel Poor]

The people listening don't think about the listeners. Just try to answer it how you really answer it.

[Earlonne Woods]

So.

[Olivia]

Yes, I fit in here in my own way. Just because I didn't have a criminal background, I don't think that someone has to be a criminal to commit a crime. If I had to say a group that I fit into, I'd say woman in recovery.

[Nigel Poor]

Recovery. Okay. There's a real awkwardness to this question. Yeah.

[Earlonne Woods]

I mean, you can definitely hear her struggling with it.

[Nigel Poor]

Yeah. And I think that Grace has come to an acceptance of her situation and what got her there. But this struggle about whether or not you fit in in prison was definitely a recurring theme with the women we talk to. Do you feel like you are in a different. How do I say this? A different arena or a different class of incarcerated person?

[Grace]

Yes.

[Earlonne Woods]

This is Jessica. She's also serving a DUI sentence at the California Institution for Women.

[Nigel Poor]

Can you talk about that? You made a face like, do you not want to talk about.

[Grace]

It's such a complex subject, I guess because, like, when I came in, I knew that the events that happened, I was going to need some time to process that, you know, and just. Just the horrific events and the guilt. Right. That go with that. So I needed the time away from society to process all this stuff. I mean, there was just like, some really ugly stuff coming up out of me, like, because, like my dad said, there's no manual to accidentally killing somebody. Like, it really weighs on you heavily. I think for the most part, the women in here are not the hardcore alcoholics, you know, that we might think of. A lot of them are very young. A lot of them have children. A lot of them maybe went out to celebrate one night and they, you know, killed somebody. And so it's just a lot of different people that end up in here. And I'm not sure if this is prison is like exactly what they need for the rehabilitation part, but for me, the part away from society to heal without, like, eyes on me was needed. You know.

[Nigel Poor]

Do you feel ostracized or do you feel superior? And I'm not saying you. I'm just saying about the population in general.

[Earlonne Woods]

The y' all are supposed to be like, rah, rah when y' all come here, like, you know, ready to chunk them with everybody, you know, like, because that's not probably where y' all come from. Y' all not necessarily criminals. You know, most people are, you know, into crime, into robbing, into killing, whatever it is. So to come here for a bad decision is a totally different dynamic. I think so. I don't know.

[Grace]

I think you're right. And, you know, I've never felt like I belonged anywhere, but it's curious what.

[Nigel Poor]

Earlonne is saying to me. If you with people who have much more expertise in criminal behavior. Yes. And then you're somebody. I'm not downplaying what happens, but that it's a different. It's a different kind of thing.

[Grace]

Yeah. So you pick up a lot of information in here.

[Earlonne Woods]

Does it turn you into a different person?

[Grace]

Yes, I think so. I just feel like I have no purpose in. In here. I'm not challenged. I'm bored out of my mind. And then I have to deal with a bunch of riff raff all day. Right.

[Earlonne Woods]

I appreciate her being so honest. You know, I imagine that if you go to prison in the way that these women had. Yeah, it's shocking. It's a shock.

[Nigel Poor]

Yeah. It has to be.

[Earlonne Woods]

We're going to meet some more of these women. After a quick break.

[Nigel Poor]

Calling out your.

[Earlonne Woods]

Hustlers, we've got an announcement.

[Nigel Poor]

We are hitting the road again.

[Earlonne Woods]

That's right. Back in 2023, we had our first live tour on the east and west coast and we had so much fun. We're like, we gotta do this again.

[Nigel Poor]

So that's what's happening. Only this time it's really like an old fashioned roadshow. Kind of like a 70s style rock band. We are renting vans and we are packing so many outfits.

[Earlonne Woods]

Earlonne and hitting the road. We'll start out in Nashville. On August 4th and we will drive across the south and Midwest hitting a bunch of cities, hopefully yours.

[Nigel Poor]

Grand finale. A city I have always wanted to visit. Austin, Texas.

[Earlonne Woods]

And this time out we've got an entirely new show. Stories from inside and outside prison reimagined by a cool animator and music from some of our favorite artists you've met on the show.

[Nigel Poor]

And Earlonne, you know I am already picking out my outfits.

[Earlonne Woods]

Yep.

[Nigel Poor]

And between you and me, we are going to need our own van. Earlonne. We are going to travel Liverachi style. And you know I am dying to see what our listeners are going to be wearing.

[Earlonne Woods]

I'm wearing prison blues.

[Nigel Poor]

What you talking. You are not. You are not.

[Earlonne Woods]

So dress to impress.

[Nigel Poor]

For ticket info and all the details go to earhustlesq.com See you on the road. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp.

[Earlonne Woods]

Nigel Mm. It's Mental Health Awareness Month. Did you know that 26% of Americans who participated in a recent survey said they avoided seeking mental health support because they were afraid of being judged for it?

[Nigel Poor]

Yeah. We still have to get away from that stigma. When people hesitate to get help, it doesn't just affect them. It affects their families, their workplace, their entire community.

[Earlonne Woods]

The world is a better place when people are happy and healthy.

[Nigel Poor]

True. And therapy can really help you make those adjustments. You need, you know, to have better boundaries, to be a better colleague, to think about how you function in your family. And everyone benefits from that.

[Earlonne Woods]

And honestly, when I needed to talk to somebody, a therapist was the best person to talk to. I didn't know them. They didn't know me. But.

[Nigel Poor]

But they could help, right?

[Earlonne Woods]

Exactly.

[Nigel Poor]

Better help has over 10 years of experience matching people with the right therapist from their network of more than 30,000 licensed therapists.

[Earlonne Woods]

And BetterHelp is fully online, making therapy affordable and convenient for over 5 million people worldwide.

[Nigel Poor]

We're all better with help. Visit betterhelp.com earhustle to get 10% off your first month.

[Earlonne Woods]

That's BetterHelp. H-E-L-P.com earhustle Lamont Jones World shatters when his young cousin dies in custody just weeks after entering prison. The official report says natural causes, but bruises and missing teeth tell a different story. Grief turns to frustration as Lamont faces an impossible choice. Accept the lies or risk everything to uncover the truth.

[Nigel Poor]

From Wondery comes Death county, pa. A chilling true story of corruption, coverups, and one man's relentless pursuit of justice. Follow Death County, PA. On the Wondry app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Olivia]

Try Try, try, try, try, try, try, try, try. Hi, my name is Constance.

[Nigel Poor]

I'm serving a 15 to life sentence.

[Grace]

On my first DUI. Prior to coming here, I was a branch manager for First American.

[Earlonne Woods]

This was an interesting interview, Nige.

[Nigel Poor]

Yeah, I mean, we don't normally do this type of thing because it' group at one time.

[Earlonne Woods]

Right, right.

[Nigel Poor]

But we had heard that at the Central California Women's Facility there's a group for women who have come to prison on DUI homicide charges and they meet regularly.

[Earlonne Woods]

So we thought we'd come in and get to know them a bit. This is Colleen.

[Constance]

I was on probation for my first DUI and I got 45 years to.

[Olivia]

Life and I killed three people. And I've been here almost 10 years.

[Nigel Poor]

While some of these women had histories of substance abuse and run ins with the law, others like Grace and Olivia had been living seemingly law abiding lives.

[Earlonne Woods]

And then everything changed for them.

[Nigel Poor]

Here's Sherry, serving 15 to life plus 10 years of enhancements for my first DUI. Prior to this, I was a drug and alcohol counselor.

[Earlonne Woods]

Leticia.

[Constance]

I've been incarcerated for about six, six years.

[Grace]

I have a 15 to life sentence and previous to incarceration I was an area manager for a corporate bank.

[Nigel Poor]

Here's Kaylee.

[Constance]

I've been here for 15 years on a 15 to life sentence for second.

[Nigel Poor]

Degree murder and gross vehicular manslaughter. Before coming to prison, I was a private in home caregiver and a college student.

[Earlonne Woods]

Next up, Kerry.

[Jessica]

I have a 15 to life sentence. I've been in custody for nine years and before coming to prison I was assistant for a real estate investor.

[Nigel Poor]

Here's Donna. I have served 16 years on a 15 to life and I worked as a administrative manager for a private school for autistic children.

[Earlonne Woods]

And finally, Mary.

[Mary]

I am sentenced 15 to life on my first DUI. And prior to incarceration I was a principal of an elementary school.

[Nigel Poor]

When I first got here, the stereotype around me was, oh, just, it's just a dui. Like it was like almost acceptable. And it was, it was hard. It was. We felt apart. I felt apart.

[Olivia]

We're not segregated physically separated from people.

[Nigel Poor]

This is Otelia.

[Olivia]

But as a DUI offender, the response.

[Mary]

Of a lot of people who were.

[Olivia]

Here for like gang related murders or other type of, you know, the hierarchy type of crimes would be like, oh, you're just a dui. You were just an accident, you know, like you're not that serious.

[Mary]

I know this sounds silly, but it almost like feels like oh, I'm disqualified to be here in prison. It didn't. It didn't really count. You didn't mean to do it. Oh, but your crime, it was an accident. It was just an accident. So you don't fit here either. And so I feel like I took a little bit longer to really own what I did, because it's looked at differently. It's not. I mean, in their words, it's not. You know, it's not premeditated murder. You didn't mean to do it. And that made it really hard to be able to really take accountability that, no, I murdered someone.

[Nigel Poor]

Mary just said she murdered someone.

[Earlonne Woods]

Yeah, they all use that word when they talk about their crime.

[Nigel Poor]

And at the time of this interview, Earlonne, I was really struggling with that, because in my mind, murder requires intention. You know, like something you do with purpose. I just can't get my head around calling it murder. And I want to know, do you guys think I don't understand what murder means? At the time of my crime, when I got sentenced, I also felt it wasn't murder. I didn't feel like a murderer. I just don't have it in my heart. And it was a hard pill to swallow that I murdered somebody, but it was the truth.

[Mary]

I could say I took Jessica's life. I could say that in the car crash that she died, or I could say any other ways to explain why she is no longer here. But for me to sit here and say that I murdered Jessica implies the full accountability of my actions. There's no other term but murder that holds that accountability.

[Jessica]

When I first got into my accident, I'm like, I'm from East Oakland. I know what murder is. I done seen plenty of people be murdered. I done had plenty of people in my life be murdered. This is not murder. This is not murder. I know what murder is. This is what I convinced myself of for a very long time. And it took for my two twin little cousins to be drinking and driving and one of them to kill the other one for me to say, what type of example did I set? Because they didn't really look at what really happened. I killed somebody. This man is gone. I took somebody's child. They're not really seeing this for what it is. So now they're doing the same thing that got me in this situation. And now my little cousin then took her sister's life. So I don't think that people fully grasp that this is murder. There's no other word for it but murder.

[Nigel Poor]

Do you consider that you murdered People.

[Constance]

Yes, I do.

[Earlonne Woods]

This is Olivia, who we heard at the top of the episode.

[Constance]

With DUI cases especially, it's like we. It's hard for us to say that we're murderers and stuff, because we had no intent or. Gosh, I'm sorry. It's so hard to answer this. I know that I took their lives away, and for that I have to admit that I murdered them. You know, whether or not I had any idea, any memory, any. You know, it's still the fact that they are no longer in this world.

[Nigel Poor]

Was the crime drinking and driving, or is the crime that people died? Does that make sense to you? Because I get legally what it was, but this is what I always come up with when we talk about this. I can only out myself, but I bet I'm not the only person in this room who's driven while drinking. So it's something that people do all the time. And so in that way, there's so many people who are guilty of this crime that nothing ever happens to them. I guess I'm not sure what I want you to say to it, but when you think about it is that that's the crime. And then there are these horrible consequences. So what should happen to people that drink and drive and nothing happens? You know, they're lucky enough that they.

[Constance]

Didn'T have an accident, and that's the vicious cycle. Right? Because they do it time and time again and nothing happens. So they develop this thought that it will never happen to me. I've done it a million times before. Until it does happen.

[Nigel Poor]

Does it irritate you to hear us both say that we.

[Constance]

Yes. I just. Well, not. And. But not like, oh, I'm so mad at you. It's because that's. That's the culture. And I have. You know, I've had. Officers, I've had. You know, I've had people come up to me and say, like, I could be right where you're at right now.

[Nigel Poor]

Yeah.

[Constance]

It's not. It's not something that's isolated to me because I have just this terrible luck. It's just that it can happen to literally anybody at any point in time.

[Nigel Poor]

Well, Earlonne, does it sound like we just did our first PSA episode?

[Earlonne Woods]

Maybe, and if we did, this is the one to do.

[Nigel Poor]

Yeah. And, you know, this episode is different in so many ways. One, like we just said, it kind of sounds like a psa, but the other thing that's kind of funny is we just did an episode about how we rarely talk about people's crimes.

[Earlonne Woods]

Right.

[Nigel Poor]

And this episode really centers on it.

[Earlonne Woods]

Well, yeah, this is an episode where the crimes were germane to the story that we wanted to tell. And in this case, those crimes made us both reflect on our own behavior.

[Nigel Poor]

Absolutely. And maybe we'll do that for the listeners too. And definitely my college students out there, if you're listening, please take this episode.

[Earlonne Woods]

Seriously, y' all Better.

[Nigel Poor]

Ear Hustle is produced by me, Earlonne Woods, Amy Standen, Bruce Wallace, Rahsaan, New York. Thomas and Kat Shuknik.

[Earlonne Woods]

Shabnam Sigman is our managing producer.

[Nigel Poor]

The producing team, Inside San Quentin includes Duressadique, Davis and Thomas. The Inside managing producer is Tony Defoya. Thanks also to Aristeo San Pablo.

[Earlonne Woods]

Thanks to warden Andes and Lt. Berry at the San Quentin Rehabilitation Center, Warden Dela Cruz and Lt. Williams at the Central California Women's Facility and Acton Warden Parker at the California Institution for Women for their support of the show.

[Nigel Poor]

Thanks also to this guy here. I am Lieutenant William Newborg, Public Information Officer here at ciw and I approve this episode.

[Earlonne Woods]

This episode was made possible by the Just Trust building a smaller, more humane engine of justice and safety across the country.

[Nigel Poor]

Earlonne woods and Bruce Wallace sound designed the show with help from Darrell Siddiq. Davis. Fernando Arruda and Harry Culhane are our engineers.

[Earlonne Woods]

Music for this episode comes from Antwan Williams, David Jassy, Darrell Siddiq Davis, Fernando Arruda and me. For more information about this episode, check out the show notes on Ear Hustle's website, earhustlesq.com youm can find us on.

[Nigel Poor]

Social media, Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, TikTok and now Bluesky.

[Earlonne Woods]

Ear Hustle will always be free, but if you want more Ear Hustle without ads, sign up for Ear Hustle Plus. Subscribers get access to Axe, Nigel and Earlonne Anything episodes and where are they Now? Episodes where we follow up with folks who were on the show before and see how they're doing.

[Nigel Poor]

On our latest Ear Hustle plus episode, Rahsaan, New York. Thomas catches up with Anthony Ant Ammons in la. You might remember him from one of our Catch a Kite episodes or our Hot Trash episode where he talked about visits. On Ear Hustle Plus, Ant shares some surprising things that have happened since he paroled, including going from pushing buttons on an elevator to being part of an NBA championship.

[Earlonne Woods]

Subscribe to Ear [e-mail]/ Ear Hustle is.

[Nigel Poor]

A proud member of Radiotopia from PRX, a network of independent, creator owned, listener supported podcasts.

[Earlonne Woods]

Discover audio with vision at Radiotopia fm.

[Nigel Poor]

I'm Nigel Poor.

[Earlonne Woods]

I'm Earlonne Woods.

[Nigel Poor]

Thanks for listening. I have just one light hearted question. So you're talking about what people look like that are serving time for dui? Okay, if you saw me walking across the yard, what would you think? Dui?

[Jessica]

Honestly, I would think that you killed your husband. I'm not gonna.

[Nigel Poor]

Hey, Earlonne.

[Earlonne Woods]

Hey.

[Nigel Poor]

You didn't hear this from me, but Normal Gossip is very back for its eighth season. Yes. So join Normal Gossip's new host, Rachel Hampton, as she shares the juiciest gossip from the real world.

[Earlonne Woods]

Each episode she's joined by a special guest and you might even recognize a couple of them from the Radiotopia universe.

[Nigel Poor]

Normal Gossip, name one of the best podcasts of 2024 by Time magazine and Vulture is out now on all your favorite podcasts, podcast platforms and this September.

[Earlonne Woods]

Normal Gossip is going on tour. For more information, check out normalgossiplive.com support ear hustle by donating today as part of our annual fundraiser.

[Nigel Poor]

Everyone who donates will be invited to our virtual party. If you've never been, it's a really fun time where we all talk about the season and answer questions from you all live.

[Earlonne Woods]

Every gift will help us reach our goal of 1,000 donors. Head over to earhustlesq.com to learn more and please contribute.

[Nigel Poor]

Thank you. Radiotopia from prx.