Over and Over and Over and Over

Summary

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Ear Hustle — "Over and Over and Over and Over" (June 10, 2026)

Hosts: Earlonne Woods & Nigel Poor | Producer: Radiotopia

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Episode Overview

This powerful Ear Hustle episode dives into the complex and emotionally charged encounter between Damarion English—whose teenage brother Ronnie was murdered—and Darrell "Siddiq" Davis, the man who took Ronnie’s life and is now incarcerated at San Quentin. Through raw conversation, the two men wrestle with cycles of violence, personal change, the crushing weight of “street codes,” and ultimately the struggle for healing and forgiveness when living "over and over and over" each day with the consequences of the past.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Introduction of Conflict and Context (04:21 – 16:08)

• Damarion’s Dilemma: Upon transfer to San Quentin, Damarion learns that his brother's killer, Siddiq, is also at the facility. The encounter revives intense street expectations for revenge.
  • "If you find yourself alongside the person who murdered your family member, the unwritten protocol is revenge. An eye for an eye." — Earlonne Woods (05:01)
• Siddiq’s Backstory: Siddiq details the events that led him to murder Ronnie—describing toxic pride, fear, and a desire for street respect.
  • “At the time, I was happy. I was happy that I believed that he was dead." — Darrell "Siddiq" Davis (12:36)
• Cycle of Retaliation and Regret: Both discuss how violence is normalized and perpetuated by their environments.
  • “I wanted to be acknowledged as somebody that you fear. I wanted people to love me, and I wanted to gain reputation." — Siddiq (15:15)

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Confrontation, Pressure, and Emotional Unraveling (20:59 – 26:14)

• Facing Street Codes Inside Prison: Damarion grapples with internal and external pressure—should he seek vengeance or change?
  • "On site. Soon as I see you, I’m gonna take you down. Straight up, no questions asked. None of that." — Earlonne (21:38)
• Family & Peer Pressure: Inside and outside influences clash: some urge retaliation, others plea for Damarion to choose freedom.
• Personal Struggles: Damarion starts to spiral emotionally, turning to drugs as a coping mechanism.
  • "I started doing drugs. I started losing weight because I didn’t know how to cope with it... I just went downhill." — Damarion English (24:58)
• Critical Decision Point: Torn between vengeance and self-preservation, Damarion chooses to seek a different path, influenced by desires for release and reflection on his own misdeeds.
  • "What do you really want? I want to go home." — Family member & Damarion (25:53)

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The Pivotal Meeting: Dialogue Instead of Violence (27:00 – 32:27)

• Setting Up Dialogue: With the help of Sammy, a peer support worker and fellow Ear Hustle insider, a meeting is organized between Damarion and Siddiq.
• First Encounter: Tension is palpable—both share tears and difficult stories.
  • "As soon as I walk in there, I just put my hands up, like, brother, I’m not here to hurt you anymore... I come in peace." — Siddiq (30:11)
  • "We basically both started crying. We put it all on the table, and I felt him, he felt me." — Damarion (30:35)
• Forgiveness as Survival: Damarion voices the transformative power of forgiveness as vital for personal healing—rather than a gift to Siddiq alone.
  • "The only way to heal is to forgive. That’s the only way to heal." — Damarion (30:52)

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Healing, Change, and Unlikely Friendship (32:27 – 40:25)

• The Experience of Forgiveness
  • "Having this feeling of forgiveness for Sadiq... brought me a sense of healing, too, to where I needed that." — Damarion (32:01)
  • "Is that over now for you?" — Nigel Poor. "It’s over. I can actually say that is over." — Damarion (32:29)
• Mutual Growth via Connection: The two find shared ground through music production and collaborative projects—creating new purpose together.
  • "Music really brought us together a lot, too... that's a way through healing." — Damarion (35:52)
  • "So, he's got the mixing credit." — Siddiq, with humor (35:39)
• From Cycles of Violence to Cycles of Repair: Both consider how their public reconciliation could serve as an example for Oakland and challenge community norms.

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Reflections on Accountability, Empathy, and the Human Condition (36:41 – End)

• Understanding Across Divides
  • "We can forgive, and we can heal." — Damarion (36:41)
  • "What does healing mean? Not hurting, seeing remorse, knowing true feelings." — Damarion (37:09)
• Advice for Others Suffering
  • "This process is not gonna be easy... this journey is gonna be tough, but it can be done." — Siddiq (38:00)
• Possibility of Support for Parole
  • "Can you see yourself in that boardroom supporting him for release?" — Nigel Poor (39:41)
  • "I want him to get out there. I want him to go live his family... I see a different person." — Damarion (39:51)
• Essence of Relationship: Openness and Honest Dialogue
  • "I just rather him be honest... Like, if it’s something that’s ever bothering him or anything he might be going through." — Siddiq (40:36)
  • "After all of this, can you use an emotion word to explain how you feel?" — Nigel Poor. "Relief. Is that a motion? Yeah, I can breathe a little better." — Damarion (41:08)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Siddiq explains his crime: “I had my mind made up already. This was premeditated.” — Siddiq (10:13)
• Damarion on the stress: "I started doing drugs... I just went downhill." (24:58)
• On forgiveness: "The only way to heal is to forgive." — Damarion (30:52)
• Their mutual respect: "We definitely commend both of y’ all, man, and take our hats off to y’ all for even having this conversation." — Earlonne Woods (34:20)
• Changing the cycle: "Maybe we get out and we can show Oakland something different." — Damarion (38:25)
• Moving to friendship: "I saw Siddiq sitting at the computer kind of laughing with this guy, and I was like, no, there's no way that's Damarion. I mean, they can't be hanging out like this." — Nigel Poor (35:56)
• Final emotional resolution: "Relief. Is that a motion? Yeah, I can breathe a little better." — Damarion (41:08)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Damarion discovers Siddiq is at San Quentin: 04:21
• Siddiq’s detailed account of the murder: 08:35 – 15:50
• Damarion’s inner conflict and peer pressure: 20:59 – 24:58
• First in-person encounter between Damarion & Siddiq: 30:01 – 32:27
• Describing forgiveness and healing: 32:01; 36:41
• Their ongoing friendship and collaboration: 35:23 – 37:41
• Reflections on change, community, and the future: 38:25 – end

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Closing Thoughts

This episode of Ear Hustle offers a rare, human glimpse into cycles of violence, the agony and relief of forgiveness, and the relentless battles with identity and expectation—both within prison walls and beyond. The willingness of Damarion and Siddiq to converse, collaborate, and heal in public stands as a profound act of courage that aims not only for personal transformation, but also for broader community change.

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Further Listening/Resources

• Photos and behind-the-scenes content: earhustlesq.com/newsletter
• Upcoming extras in the podcast feed: Stories from the California Institution for Women and team roundtable discussions.
• Music featured: Created collaboratively by Darrell "Siddiq" Davis and Damarion English within San Quentin.

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Transcript

[Earlonne Woods]

Before we get to the episode, we just want to say thank you.

[Nigel Poor]

Seriously, thank you.

[Earlonne Woods]

You've probably heard us talking about our spring fundraiser and how your support helps us make more episodes of Beer Hustle while also allowing us to bring our live show and our storytelling workshops into prisons around the country.

[Nigel Poor]

And one of the best parts of the fundraiser is hearing from you all. We love the comments you share with us when you donate.

[Earlonne Woods]

Like this note from Lena after our

[Nigel Poor]

corny ass episode named by you.

[Earlonne Woods]

I adore your podcast and I'm grateful for all the work you do. And hugs are necessary and life saving. Nothing cheesy about them.

[Nigel Poor]

That's right, Lena. That's right. Okay. Or this one from another L name Laura. Amazing podcast. I truly appreciate the work all of you do, inside and outside. Thank you for including the women.

[Earlonne Woods]

Honestly, though, only a small percentage of listeners don't. Less than 1%. It's tough out there. We know and we get it.

[Nigel Poor]

That's why we are so appreciative of the gifts we do get. Your donations help us do the work we do. Visiting prisons, telling stories, and bringing you voices that aren't often heard.

[Earlonne Woods]

And every single gift helps us get closer to our goal of 1,000 donors.

[Nigel Poor]

But time is running out before the end of the fundraiser and the end of the fiscal year. We need your help before the end of this month. Donate [e-mail] donate or by following the link in the episode notes.

[Earlonne Woods]

And in case we haven't said it enough, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. It means so much to us to be able to do this work. And we couldn't do it without you.

[Nigel Poor]

No, we couldn't,

[Earlonne Woods]

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[Nigel Poor]

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[Earlonne Woods]

Oh, okay.

[Nigel Poor]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Earlonne Woods]

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[Nigel Poor]

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[Earlonne Woods]

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[Nigel Poor]

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[Earlonne Woods]

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[Damarion English]

o o.com this is Sam Robinson, the retired lieutenant and retired public information officer from San Quentin State Prison. The following episode of Ear Hustle contains language and content that may not be appropriate for all listeners. Discretion is advised. I was actually going to breakfast and I ran into one of my friends. He was like, yeah, man, that's the guy who killed Lil Ronnie right there.

[Earlonne Woods]

This is Damarion. He hadn't been in San Quentin long when he found out that the guy who murdered his little brother Ronnie was there at San Quentin, too.

[Damarion English]

Every morning I used to see him, he come with his dog, and I'd be waiting for breakfast. It was kind of eating at me a little bit. I was hit with a choice of what, what do I do? Like, do I continue to live my street life? Do I change and go home? Anything could happen right here. I just went into my cell and I just went downhill. I went downhi.

[Earlonne Woods]

This is a tough spot that Damarion was in because if you find yourself alongside the person who murdered your family member, the unwritten protocol is revenge. An eye for an eye.

[Nigel Poor]

But assaulting someone in prison means adding a whole new sentence and any hope of getting out of prison soon. I mean, that's going to be over.

[Earlonne Woods]

When you've lived your life by the rules of the street, what does it take to choose a different path?

[Nigel Poor]

I'm Nigel Poor.

[Earlonne Woods]

I'm Earlonne woods, and this is ear hustle from PRX's Radiotopia. Can you tell us a little bit about Ronnie?

[Darrell Siddiq Davis]

Well,

[Damarion English]

he's a bubbly guy, very, very intelligent, smart. That's why people didn't know that he was the age that he was. I was three years older than him at the time. I was 19. He was 16.

[Nigel Poor]

When you think about him, what's one memory that comes to mind?

[Damarion English]

His smile and how much he said to me, I love you, brother. I love you. I love you. I love you. He didn't get to live life. He didn't even get to live life. He didn't get to live life.

[Nigel Poor]

Are you able to tell us the story of that day? Do you know what happened?

[Damarion English]

I think that is something for him to tell y'. All. Not. Not me. I'm just gonna be honest with you. That's. That's not. That's not. That's his truth. That's not mine. That's not even something I even want to just, like, even relive it sometimes, because in order to sit down with you guys, I had to go relive that.

[Nigel Poor]

As I was thinking about this story, I was like, oh, wow. Now I understand, I think, why you ripped up that photograph so small.

[Darrell Siddiq Davis]

Yeah, that's the old Sadiq. Yeah, yeah, that was Darrell.

[Earlonne Woods]

That, of course, is Sadiq from our inside team or Darrell. That's his government handle. It's what people called him before he came to prison.

[Nigel Poor]

And when I mentioned up there ripping up a photograph, I'm referencing that episode we did some seasons back where I asked the guys to bring their photographs down to the lab to look at. And as part of that conversation, I asked them if any of them wanted to rip one up and destroy it in, like, a r. Remember that?

[Earlonne Woods]

Yeah. And Sadiq, he was the only one that took you up on it? He ripped up a photo he had of himself back when he was living that thug life, when he went by rail, short for Darrell.

[Nigel Poor]

Yeah. And at the time, I didn't fully understand why he wanted to make that image disappear. But Earlonne, after hearing this story, it made a lot more sense. I don't know exactly how you're feeling about this, and I've been thinking about this a lot. I mean, I only know you in one way, and that's the way I always see you, no matter what we talk about, but it occurs to me that this is a side of Siddiq that's pretty different.

[Darrell Siddiq Davis]

Yeah.

[Earlonne Woods]

Mrs. Thug Siddiq, can you tell us about how you came to be here, like, the night that your crime happened?

[Darrell Siddiq Davis]

So on November 14, 2008, I shot and killed Ronnie Greer.

[Nigel Poor]

How old were you at the time?

[Darrell Siddiq Davis]

I was 22.

[Nigel Poor]

Ronnie and Siddiq were Part of the same sort of loose social circle in Oakland. And Siddiq says for some reason, there just always seemed to be tension between them.

[Darrell Siddiq Davis]

It was just something about him. I don't know what it was. We was always clashing. Like, me and Ronnie was always in some type of, like, disagreement. For some reason I don't understand, but we was always in a disagreement. I got into an altercation with Ronnie Greer. Like, I really can't remember what it was about. It was so long ago. Maybe my mind is just not taking me there, but I got into an altercation with him. That day went by. I left his house. I went home. The only thing I was thinking of was that I'm this person. Like, I can't let nobody talk to me like that. If he ever get at me again, you know, it's gonna be problems. We had another altercation. I told my cousin, like, I'm tired of shit. I'm just tired of just going back and forth with him. I gotta do something about it. That night, I went to go get a gun. We got on the freeway and went back to the house that Ronnie was staying at. Told him we just was gonna go get some girls. Ronnie was kind of, like, hesitant, but he's like, all right, I'm riding.

[Nigel Poor]

Did you know what was going to happen when you got in the car?

[Darrell Siddiq Davis]

I had my mind made up that tonight was going to be the night. I don't know where, but tonight was going to be the night. I had my mind made up already. This was premeditated.

[Earlonne Woods]

So there's four of them in the car. Sadiq's cousin is driving. Ronnie's in the passenger seat. Sadiq's right behind Ronnie, and Sadiq's brother is next to him in the back seat.

[Darrell Siddiq Davis]

We went to a quick shop. We was going to get some liquor, and from there, we got on the freeway. I pulled out the gun. I was kind of, like, whispering to my brother, like, I just got this gun. He was like, what you doing with the gun? I'm like, don't worry about it. My cousin don't know this is about to transpire in his car. My brother don't know what's going on. Only I know we take an exit. As we take an exit, I cock the gun, but nobody can hear it. The music is on. Like, nobody's paying attention to me. I shoot Ronnie Greer in the back of the head as we going down the underpass of the freeway, and the gun jams. I hear my brother over here, like, oh, my God. Like, he's basically, like, in awe of what's going on. I fix the gun and shoot him again in the head. I was hoping that he was dead. Like, I was telling myself, I hope that he's dead because I don't want no retaliation. I don't want him to be alive and know that I shot him. So I was hoping that he was dead in the car. I remember saying that in my mind, like, please be dead. And as we turning, Ronnie's body just went limp against the door panel. And that's when I tell my cousin in the front, like, help me push him out the car. He's driving. He's looking shocked, and my brother is looking shocked. They just was just sitting there, just like a deer in the headlights. My cousin opened up the door, and then I pushed his body out. We drive off. As we driving off, I remember my brother, he asked me, like, why did you kill my friend? And I told him he had to go. I can see all the fear on my brother face. And I told him he better not say nothing. So that meant I was willing to do something to my brother. The way I was talking to him, just feared him even more. After we got to my house, I was replaying the scenes just, like, over and over and over. I think at the time, I was happy. I was happy that I believe that he was dead.

[Earlonne Woods]

So I'm just curious, man, why did you go to the extreme of killing this young dude? Like, why you just didn't fight him?

[Darrell Siddiq Davis]

Fear. I assumed what he was capable of. I didn't want nothing to happen to me. After we have a fight, you didn't

[Earlonne Woods]

stop to think, like, I got two witnesses in the car with me and this guy. You didn't think about none of that. You just was like, I want to do it in front of them just to.

[Darrell Siddiq Davis]

So what I thought was, this is my family, this is my blood, that my blood is going to always have my back. I thought that nobody would never find out because this is my flesh and blood, my brother and my cousin.

[Earlonne Woods]

Did anybody talk about it after that day?

[Darrell Siddiq Davis]

We never really talked about it. I didn't talk to my brother about it. I just remember my mom calling me, saying she need to talk to me. I'm like, all right. So she picked me up, and we just driving. She's just talking, but not really talking about anything, so I know something's about to come up. She said, why you kill that boy? This one, I found out he's 16. She's like, why you kill that boy? I'm like, ma, I don't know what you're talking about. I didn't kill nobody. She, like, he killed that boy.

[Nigel Poor]

Was that the most violent thing you had done up until that point in your life?

[Darrell Siddiq Davis]

Yes.

[Nigel Poor]

Were you surprised that you had that in you

[Darrell Siddiq Davis]

back then? It felt easy. It felt easy to pull the trigger. It felt easy to talk crazy to people. It felt easy to fight people. It was just like another thing to do in the streets.

[Earlonne Woods]

When you think about it. Ronnie, 16 years old. What gave you the audacity to say your life don't mean anything?

[Darrell Siddiq Davis]

So it was really just about me at the time. I wasn't even thinking about his life. I was just thinking about what people was gonna think about me. I wanted to be acknowledged as somebody that you fear. I wanted to be acknowledged as somebody that you don't mess with. I wanted people to love me, and I wanted to gain reputation. I wanted to not let Ronnie make me feel like I was less than. So I took his life.

[Nigel Poor]

What is it like having to tell us about this?

[Earlonne Woods]

It hurts.

[Darrell Siddiq Davis]

There's a lot of shame there. That I caused so much pain. It's a lot of shame that comes with it.

[Nigel Poor]

About a month after he killed Ronnie, Siddiq was arrested.

[Earlonne Woods]

He ended up receiving a sentence of 82 years to life.

[Nigel Poor]

Right? And by the time I met Siddiq, he had been in prison for over 10 years. And that old self, you know, the one he called religious, was very much in the past.

[Earlonne Woods]

But then Damarion, the brother of the guy Sadiq shot in the car that night, ended up at San Quentin. And for Sadiq, that meant confronting his old self all over again.

[Nigel Poor]

More on that after the break.

[Damarion English]

This is Ira Glass on this American Life. One thing we like is a good mystery sometimes about really big things, things you hear in the news.

[Earlonne Woods]

But most times, the little mysteries are the best.

[Damarion English]

Our lost and found is currently filled with pants. I don't know. I've never seen this happen. I've got skirts.

[Nigel Poor]

I've got shorts. Is this true?

[Damarion English]

This is true. Mysteries of every size. Each week, this American Life. Wherever you get your podcasts,

[Nigel Poor]

this episode is sponsored by Strawberry Me.

[Earlonne Woods]

Nigel, let me ask you a serious question.

[Nigel Poor]

Okay.

[Earlonne Woods]

Are you where you want to be professionally and financially?

[Nigel Poor]

Well, in many ways, yes. But of course, there's always stuff I could be better at, and I'm not always sure how to get there.

[Earlonne Woods]

One thing I'm learning is that success doesn't just happen, and the most successful people in the world don't figure it all out alone. They have mentors and coaches, people guiding them every step of the way.

[Nigel Poor]

That's where Strawberry Me coaching comes in. And actually we were on a road trip recently when you had your first coaching session and we just sat down and talked about it.

[Earlonne Woods]

I got on the computer and I got on on time and I met my life coach.

[Nigel Poor]

So what did you learn?

[Earlonne Woods]

So when it came to the financial stuff, yeah, I told him about where I had been. I told him, I said, you know, a lot of people have a 25, 30 year advantage on me. I was talking to him about like a lot of the business plans that I have for the future, you know, and the stuff that I want to do. And we was basically organizing those thoughts, basically starting with a business plan and moving forward.

[Nigel Poor]

Do you know what I like about Strawberry Me is that it really is tailored to what your interests are. So you wanted to do something more about business planning, financial literacy. I want to do something more emotional. This is like such a difference between you and me. So I'm working on like team dynamics and being a better team person. And there was a really great questionnaire and I love how personalized it is. And actually just answering those questions got me thinking about stuff I want to work on. Career coaching helps give you clarity, strategy and accountability towards achieving your goals. Whether it's landing a new job, advancing in your current role, or transitioning to a field you love, you have a dedicated coach supporting you along the way.

[Earlonne Woods]

Go to Strawberry Me earhustle and get 50% off your first coaching session.

[Nigel Poor]

That's Strawberry Me Earhustle. It's like therapy for your career.

[Earlonne Woods]

Naj, I have to go look at my action items and get ready for my next coaching session. We spend a lot of time talking about what happens inside prison and after people are released. Which is why we're looking forward to the new documentary podcast, Fighting Crime, which asks what could have been done so that someone never walked through those doors in the first place.

[Nigel Poor]

Hosted by award winning journalist Christina Quinn and produced by Arnold Ventures, Fighting Crime dives into the world of crime policy and economics to uncover the evidence of what actually works to improve public safety.

[Earlonne Woods]

Throughout this 10 part narrative video series, Christina travels the country from prisons to universities and beyond to look at evidence and question everything Americans think we know about how to make our country safer.

[Nigel Poor]

Like, could GLP1s help reduce violence? Is air pollution making your neighborhood less safe? And why don't people leaving prison get jobs?

[Earlonne Woods]

It's not true crime, it's the truth about crime. So watch and follow fighting crime on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Damarion English]

You have these different thoughts that go through your head. You walking past every day you're seeing, and you're like, okay, should I, Should I not?

[Earlonne Woods]

That's da'. Maryon. We met him at the top of the episode.

[Nigel Poor]

Da' Maryon arrived at San Quentin in 2023.

[Earlonne Woods]

Something like that.

[Nigel Poor]

Something like that, yeah. And almost immediately, he found out that the guy who had killed his brother Ronnie was at the same prison.

[Earlonne Woods]

Yeah. A friend of Damarion saw Siddiq on the yard and was like, that's old boy that killed Lil Ronnie.

[Nigel Poor]

So, I mean, Earlonne, obviously, this set up a very tense situation. No, definitely, right. What are some of the possibilities?

[Earlonne Woods]

Own on site. Soon as I see you, I'm gonna take you down. Straight up, no questions asked. None of that.

[Nigel Poor]

And demarion was probably getting pressure from all over, right?

[Earlonne Woods]

Oh, yeah, Everybody.

[Nigel Poor]

I mean, I'm guessing family members also had feelings about this.

[Earlonne Woods]

I'm sure they did. You know, I mean, because that's a. That's a situation. Because in your mind, you have that space where you always want to run across the person that did harm to your family. Yeah, you always want to run across that person.

[Nigel Poor]

And don't you think there were actually people who weren't even involved in this situation that were kind of excited about it?

[Earlonne Woods]

No. People going to cheer it on, like, yeah, what are you going to do? He going to do this. He going to do that. Because people in prison look for activities, and somebody always want to be somebody.

[Nigel Poor]

But also, I mean, if he doesn't do something, people are like, you're a coward.

[Earlonne Woods]

Yeah. And that's how it'd be looked at from everybody. Like, oh, Demarion, he's a buster. You know what I'm saying? Like, he's a mark. You know, the person that killed his little brother is walking the yard, like, right there, and he ain't doing shit.

[Nigel Poor]

Right.

[Earlonne Woods]

That's how they looking at him now. They questioning who he is, his integrity, you know, the whole nine.

[Nigel Poor]

But then, you know, like, the flip side is that taking revenge on Siddiq obviously isn't gonna bring his brother back, and it would drastically change Da Maryon's sentence. Right. I mean, he might never get out of prison. So for Da Maryon, this dilemma was agonizing.

[Damarion English]

I was really battling with myself. I'm like, what would this do?

[Earlonne Woods]

What would.

[Damarion English]

Would this bring him back? It wouldn't bring him back. So it was like, it wasn't. Wasn't a good feeling. It wasn't something that.

[Nigel Poor]

Yeah, let's take a little break. Okay.

[Earlonne Woods]

Oof.

[Nigel Poor]

Earlonne, do you remember what it was like in the room during that conversation? It was so tense.

[Earlonne Woods]

Yeah. I mean, you know, it seems like Damarion was on his own trial. What he should do, what he shouldn't do.

[Nigel Poor]

This struggle was so apparent in his voice, his body language. This was one of the times where I thought, is this really a good idea to do this story?

[Damarion English]

He kind of throws, like, flu, like, a little baby powder on it. You get what I'm saying? You know, like, when you got that, you got the grease fire because it's hot. It's still there. So me going backwards and reliving this situation over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again. This takes a whole lot.

[Earlonne Woods]

No, it do.

[Damarion English]

Y' all don't even understand. We all don't understand.

[Earlonne Woods]

I can imagine y' all don't understand. Damarion said that during that time when he was seeing Siddiq on the yard, but hadn't decided what to do about it yet, he really started to unravel.

[Damarion English]

I started doing drugs. I started losing weight because I didn't know how to cope with it. I didn't know how to deal with it. I was just doing everything I could just to avoid it.

[Earlonne Woods]

What was your inner thoughts that was pushing you to drugs?

[Damarion English]

I didn't want to be looked at a certain way. And I just went into my cell and I just went. Went downhill. I went downhill.

[Earlonne Woods]

Did you have people in your ears pressing you, like, man, you gonna let him be on the yard?

[Darrell Siddiq Davis]

Yeah.

[Damarion English]

And I was getting backlash of people looking at me. I'm a bitch or a mark. My cousins was like, man, fuck that. So I took a lot of heat.

[Earlonne Woods]

But other family members on the outside were like, hey, we need you out here.

[Damarion English]

It was like, look, what do you want? What do you want? What do you really want? I want to go home. And I made that decision right then and there. This is what I want. This is what I want.

[Earlonne Woods]

I think Damarion also knew that in a different situation, Ronnie could have been the one who knocked down Sadiq. I mean, all of them were living that hood lifestyle, and any one of them could have been killed or been the killer.

[Nigel Poor]

Can you describe yourself at that time, what you were like?

[Damarion English]

Hmm. I ain't gonna lie. I was ruthless. I was different back then. The way we was living out there. My Brother. Okay, you wanna be honest with me? Like, he. He did shit. You know what I'm saying? My brother did shit.

[Nigel Poor]

So remember, Damarion knew who Sadiq was, and he was really struggling with how to handle it.

[Earlonne Woods]

But Siddiq still didn't know who d' Marion was. He was oblivious until this one day

[Nigel Poor]

when there was this big event at San Quentin and Siddiq was one of the presenters.

[Damarion English]

He actually got up there, basically told his whole story up there on the thing. And I went up to him after that.

[Darrell Siddiq Davis]

He kind of, like, gave me, like, a half hug, half dap, and it kind of felt funny.

[Earlonne Woods]

Demarion didn't say anything to Siddiq. Just dapped him up and kept walking.

[Damarion English]

I walked out and I just broke down, and everybody's like, what's wrong? What's up? And I start crying, and I'm just like, man. And I said it. I'm like, bro, like, he fear for killing my brother.

[Earlonne Woods]

The next morning, some dude walks up to Sadiq and says, hey, you know that guy d'? Marion? Word is you killed his brother.

[Nigel Poor]

Yeah. I mean, the word was really getting around.

[Darrell Siddiq Davis]

I'm like, yeah, what's up? He's like, man, he said, you in here for killing his brother? My heart just stopped right then and there. I'm panicking, Like, I don't know what to do.

[Nigel Poor]

Damarian walked right past Siddiq on the yard. He didn't even stop to look at him. Just kept walking.

[Darrell Siddiq Davis]

He, like, hugging people, saying, what's up? And as he's saying, what's up? They all looking up towards me. I'm like, oh, shit, the whole yard. No. So now I'm really, like, anxious and panicking. Just waiting, just pacing. The next morning, I go down to the old media center. I start cleaning up. And then Sammy walks in.

[Earlonne Woods]

Listeners might remember Sammy from a couple of recent episodes. He's an intern on the Ear Hustle Inside team, but he's also a peer support worker. We talked about those on the last episode.

[Nigel Poor]

Yeah. So those are the guys who are trained inside prison to help other incarcerated guys out with stuff that they're dealing with. And often it's pretty straightforward, like, you know, accessing programs in prison, dealing with paperwork.

[Earlonne Woods]

But sometimes it can get pretty thorny. And this was definitely one of those

[Darrell Siddiq Davis]

times I asked Sammy like, hey, Sammy, can you do me a favor? He like, yeah, what's up? I'm like, I'm going through something. And he's like, what is it? I'm like, you know, no.

[Nigel Poor]

N o. Is A nickname for Damarion. It stands for New Orleans, where he used to live.

[Darrell Siddiq Davis]

He's like, yeah. I'm like, well, I'm in here for shooting and killing Ronnie, which is his brother.

[Earlonne Woods]

It turned out Damarion had also gone to Sammy asking for support.

[Darrell Siddiq Davis]

Damarion told me, hey, I think the person that took my brother's life is on this yard. Demarion was really just dealing with those emotions that anybody would have. Losing a family member, knowing the person that's responsible is right here. So I just was there to listen, to make sure. Like, how is he planning on responding? I'm like, okay, can you create a dialogue for us? Because I want to be able to talk to him. So he's like, yeah, I can do that for you.

[Nigel Poor]

Sammy set up a meeting. He brought Damarion down to the media lab. And when they got there, Siddiq was already there, pacing nervously, waiting for them.

[Darrell Siddiq Davis]

As soon as I walk in there, I just put my hands up, like, brother, I'm not here to hurt your family, hurt you anymore. Like, I come in peace. And he's like, I do too. His face was like, tears, distraught, anger, pain. Like, you can see all that in his eyes. He, like, just look at my face. Just look at my face. He just was just drilling me about stuff. And I just sat in the fire as he was just talking. I just sat in the fire.

[Damarion English]

Me and him really sat down and had heart to hearts and talked with each other, like, really, really, really, really, really. We basically both started crying. We put it all on the table, and I felt him, he felt me.

[Earlonne Woods]

They talked for a while, and Damarion was like, let's end this.

[Damarion English]

He felt like he didn't deserve forgiveness. And I said, no, ask me. I'm gonna forgive you. But I told him to do that because I needed to heal. The only way to heal is to forgive. That's the only way to heal. Like, you can't without. Like, without.

[Earlonne Woods]

Do you.

[Damarion English]

Do you.

[Earlonne Woods]

Do you see it from Siddiqs or anyone who's incarcerated for, you know, for a murder or anything that is technically impossible for that person to ask for forgiveness?

[Damarion English]

I understood. I understood where. Where. Where he was coming from. But at the same time, I knew that at the same time, he needed that, too. He needed that. He needed that.

[Nigel Poor]

So having this feeling of forgiveness for Sadiq, how does it feel inside for you?

[Damarion English]

It brought me a sense of healing, too, to where I needed that. I was able to unsuppress some of the stuff that I had back there. I really, literally was hurting Myself, because I didn't know how to deal with

[Darrell Siddiq Davis]

it,

[Damarion English]

like, literally hurting myself.

[Nigel Poor]

And is that. Is that over now for you?

[Damarion English]

It's over. I can actually say that. I can actually say that that is over.

[Earlonne Woods]

When I heard the story, I had a lot of respect for you because you just didn't respond how we would normally respond. You know what I'm saying?

[Damarion English]

And I could have.

[Earlonne Woods]

You could have. Easy. The decision that you made is a big decision. You know what I'm saying? And the hardest part is not to be influenced by others to respond.

[Nigel Poor]

I have immense respect for you. I don't think I could be the same. I don't know. Don't have to react to this, but I'm just imagining if I was in a situation where I had to see somebody that killed a sibling. I don't know how there could be any other feeling except this can't stand. I mean, don't you think that's maybe a natural human way to feel? But where does your rage go in your frustration and, like, that this isn't right. Does that eventually go away? I get that you're changed, but how do you get rid of that? Take your time,

[Damarion English]

I guess, realizing some of the hurt that I've caused, too. But I've done hurt people that probably they feel the same way.

[Earlonne Woods]

We definitely commend both of y', all, man, and take our hats off to y' all for even having this conversation. How comfortable have y' all been in. In this situation?

[Damarion English]

At first it was like, dang, what am I doing? And then it was more like, okay, I got to know this person. Music really brought us together a lot, too. We was actually just doing. When y' all came in, we were actually just doing a beat in there together.

[Darrell Siddiq Davis]

So

[Nigel Poor]

I remember walking in to do the first of the interviews for this story, and I saw Siddiq sitting at the computer kind of laughing with this guy. And I was like, no, there's no way that's Damarion. I mean, they can't be hanging out like this.

[Earlonne Woods]

But they are. I mean, it's been about six months since Sadiq and Damarion had that meeting. And the two of them are cool. In fact, Sadiq's been teaching Damarion how to make beats.

[Nigel Poor]

Yeah. And actually, most of the music in this episode was made by Sadiq, some with the help of d'. Marion.

[Darrell Siddiq Davis]

I did everything.

[Damarion English]

Oh, I helped you as far as. Wait, wait.

[Darrell Siddiq Davis]

He helped me. Wait, wait, wait.

[Damarion English]

No, we ain't gonna do that. I was mixing. I was doing that.

[Darrell Siddiq Davis]

So he's get the mixing credit.

[Earlonne Woods]

So he said, your beats are trash.

[Darrell Siddiq Davis]

Super trash.

[Nigel Poor]

Does your relationship evolve around music now?

[Damarion English]

Yeah.

[Nigel Poor]

Yeah.

[Damarion English]

That's our connection. That's a way through healing.

[Nigel Poor]

So when you're doing stuff together, do all the other things fall away?

[Earlonne Woods]

Yeah, Earl.

[Nigel Poor]

And, I mean, I think this is an amazing story, but what really has been challenging me, and I could go as far as saying what's been vexing me is I really want to understand their relationship. Like, what do they need from each other? What do they want from each other? And I think it's really hard for them to express that. And I actually feel like this is a situation where unless you are one of the active participants, you can never really understand it. What is it that you get from each other that makes this relationship work? What have you learned about yourself, or what have you learned about what it means to be a human being?

[Damarion English]

We can forgive, and we can heal.

[Nigel Poor]

So what is that like for you? What does healing mean, do you think?

[Damarion English]

Not hurting, Seeing remorse, No one's true feelings.

[Nigel Poor]

Has the hurting stopped, or is it in the process?

[Damarion English]

I've been able to process and heal a little more. Yes, I have. Yes.

[Nigel Poor]

What would you. What would you tell somebody who is really hurting and doesn't know how to deal with it? What would you tell them they could do to help themselves?

[Darrell Siddiq Davis]

I would tell him. That this process is not gonna be easy.

[Damarion English]

Not at all.

[Darrell Siddiq Davis]

This journey is gonna be tough,

[Damarion English]

but it can be done.

[Nigel Poor]

Yeah.

[Damarion English]

And it has to start some,

[Earlonne Woods]

and

[Damarion English]

then it's kind of building something different to. Maybe we get out and we can show Oakland something different. That's really what it's kind of about for me right now, because I was a big gang member out there. So I know if we get out and I get to the streets and we're standing next to each other and people see that, people would be like, hey, maybe it'll change the whole little cycle that's going on in Oakland right now.

[Nigel Poor]

Could you imagine at a different time in your life, not who you are now, but in the past, that you could have done, not to your brother, but to another person? What Siddiq did. Do you see yourself at all in his behavior?

[Damarion English]

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yes.

[Nigel Poor]

And do you think that has anything to do with this relationship that you have with him? Seeing yourself in a different way and forgiving yourself for things that you may have done, and maybe that's what draws you together.

[Damarion English]

Yeah. And now thinking of it that way. Yeah.

[Earlonne Woods]

Let's say Sadiq is going up for parole in 2027, can you see yourself in that boardroom supporting him for release?

[Damarion English]

Yep, yep, yep. I told him I want him to get out there. I want him to go live his family. I want him to go be with his daughter. I want him to go live. I want him to go do that. I want him to go do that. I want him to get that opportunity. Cause I know I see a different person. I won't say I understand, but I understand a little bit. You know what I mean?

[Nigel Poor]

I got one last question. Okay. In just one word or three words? One to three words, what is it that you want from Damarion?

[Darrell Siddiq Davis]

Honesty. Yeah. Just to be honest. Like, if it's something that's ever bothering him or anything he might be going through, I just rather him be honest.

[Nigel Poor]

So is that also a way of saying that you want to be able to hear all the pain and anger he has towards you and not hold back?

[Darrell Siddiq Davis]

Definitely. After all of this, can you use an emotion word to explain how you feel?

[Damarion English]

Relief. Is that a motion? Yeah, I can breathe a little better.

[Nigel Poor]

So, Earlonne, of course, you know, we always bring in episodes to listen to with the team, and I'm definitely going to invite Damarion to come down to the media lab to join us if he's up for it.

[Earlonne Woods]

Yeah. I think that's always a good thing to see how, you know, the team reacts, you know, but usually it's a different type of story.

[Nigel Poor]

Right.

[Earlonne Woods]

And I think this one, it's gonna be a hard listen.

[Nigel Poor]

There's gonna be some tough moments. Yeah. But so much gratitude to Damarion.

[Earlonne Woods]

I applaud.

[Nigel Poor]

And Sadiq for doing this.

[Earlonne Woods]

You know, I applaud both of them. You know, with all that goes on, going on in the community and in the prisons, and just to have people having a conversation for a change, because usually it's just violence. And even when people do forgive each other, it's not like I'm gonna forgive you. And now let's go hang out.

[Nigel Poor]

Yeah. And I also. I think this is an important episode for us because it really speaks to some of the tough things that people do that get them to prison and the hard situations they have to face when they get there. And I don't think we always explore that enough.

[Earlonne Woods]

Right. Yeah, that's true. We don't talk about crime unless it's important to the story.

[Nigel Poor]

Right.

[Earlonne Woods]

That's the only time we do it. And this was an important story to be told.

[Nigel Poor]

Yep. Over the next few months, you and I and the team are going to be working on some new episodes for the fall, but in the meantime, we're going to be dropping some cool new extras in the feed.

[Earlonne Woods]

Yep. We've got stories from incarcerated women at the California Institution for Women who've been doing our workshop.

[Nigel Poor]

And these stories are from their final project, a little slice of what life is like down there at ciw.

[Earlonne Woods]

Yeah, I can't wait to really, like, dive in.

[Nigel Poor]

Mm. And there's also gonna be a roundtable discussion with you, me, Bruce, our executive producer, and Amy, our editor about the season. Sort of like behind the scenes of how we get things done and some of the challenges we face doing these episodes.

[Earlonne Woods]

And I hear people like to hear

[Nigel Poor]

that we're gonna find out

[Earlonne Woods]

all the behind the scenes stuff.

[Nigel Poor]

Exactly.

[Earlonne Woods]

Stuff that don't make it.

[Nigel Poor]

Exactly. And maybe some of the headbutting that happens. Those conversations are always good. And there's going to be some other things too, so make sure you keep your ears open and also keep your eye out on our Instagram and our other socials. Ear Hustle is produced by me, Nigel Poor, Earlonne Woods, Amy Standen, Bruce Wallace, and Kat Schuchnick.

[Earlonne Woods]

And speaking of Kat Schuchnik, this is our last episode with her because she has picked up and left town for sunny Phoenix, Arizona. Kat, we gonna miss you.

[Nigel Poor]

Kat, good luck on this next adventure. I hope it brings you all good things.

[Earlonne Woods]

And we're welcoming a new person to the team. Ashley Ann Krigbaum is going to be running our etch educational program down at the California Institution for Women.

[Nigel Poor]

Ashley Ann, it's great to have you on board and I'm really looking forward to diving into all things education with you.

[Earlonne Woods]

Shabnam Sigman is our managing producer.

[Nigel Poor]

The producing team, Inside San Quentin includes Darrell Siddiq Davis and Tom Nguyen. The inside managing producer is Tony Tafoya.

[Earlonne Woods]

Thankfully, not our inside managing singer.

[Nigel Poor]

Not to the live show.

[Earlonne Woods]

Thanks to Warden Andes at San Quentin, Acting Warden Padilla, Associate Warden Lewis and Pio, Lieutenant Avena at the California Institution for Women, and Warden Dela Cruz and Pio, Lieutenant Vogel at the Central California Women's Facility for their support of the show.

[Nigel Poor]

And as you know, every episode of Ear Hustle has to be approved by a public information officer. This week, it's this woman here. I am, Lieutenant Giamari Berry, the public information officer here at San Quentin Rehabilitation center, and I approve this episode. Darrell Sadiq Davis sound designed this episode with help from Damarion English, Earlonne woods and Bruce Wallace.

[Earlonne Woods]

Music in this episode by Darrell Sadiq Davis. Damarion English Antwan Banks Williams and David Josse.

[Nigel Poor]

And if you want to learn more about this episode and all of our episodes, sign up for our monthly email newsletter the Lowdown.

[Earlonne Woods]

You can see photos including photos of Damarion and Sadiq from this episode. Go behind the scenes to find out what the Ear Hustle team is up to and more. Sign [e-mail] Newsletter it's free.

[Nigel Poor]

Ear Hustle is a proud member of Radiotopia from prx, a network of independent, creator owned listener supported podcasts.

[Earlonne Woods]

Discover audio with vision at Radiotopia fm.

[Nigel Poor]

I'm Nigel Poor.

[Earlonne Woods]

I'm Earlonne Woods. Thanks for listening. So how you like that? Listener alert.

[Nigel Poor]

Hey, it's Sam. You know I love it.

[Earlonne Woods]

Any way to bring him back?

[Nigel Poor]

Exactly.

[Earlonne Woods]

Time is running out to help us reach our goal of 1,000 donors.

[Nigel Poor]

Every single gift helps us get closer to our goal.

[Earlonne Woods]

Head to earhustlesq.com donate to learn more and make your tax deductible donations. It only takes a minute and you can even use Venmo.

[Nigel Poor]

That's right. Thank you so much for supporting the show.

[Earlonne Woods]

We appreciate you. Radiotopia

[Nigel Poor]

from PRX.