Revisiting “Camp Grace”

Summary

Ear Hustle: Revisiting “Camp Grace” – A Deep Dive into Incarcerated Fathers and Their Children

Introduction

In the February 12, 2025 episode of Ear Hustle, titled "Revisiting ‘Camp Grace’", hosts Nigel Poor and Earlonne Woods, along with producer Bruce, delve into a poignant and complex episode from their archives. Originally aired on December 22, 2021, "Camp Grace" explores the intricate dynamics between incarcerated fathers and their children through a unique camp experience at Salinas Valley State Prison. This detailed summary captures the essence of their discussions, the emotional narratives of the participants, and the challenges faced during the episode's production.

Overview of "Camp Grace"

"Camp Grace" was an ambitious initiative by Ear Hustle to facilitate meaningful interactions between incarcerated fathers and their children. Due to the COVID-19 pandemic, the camp was condensed from five days to two, intensifying the emotional and logistical complexities involved. The camp aimed to provide fathers with the opportunity to reconnect with their children in a controlled, supportive environment, fostering bonds that are often strained by incarceration.

Key Themes and Discussions

1. Parent-Child Relationships Under Strain

   The episode highlights the profound emotional toll that incarceration takes on both fathers and their children. Participants like Jose and his son Alex showcase the desperate longing and the fragile attempts to rebuild connections. At [15:35], Jose poignantly states, “I try to kill myself a couple of times... There’s no living without the people you love,” illustrating the severe mental health challenges faced by incarcerated parents.

2. Breaking Free from Gang Culture

   A significant portion of the episode discusses the difficulty of leaving gang affiliations within the prison environment. Jose’s decision to "tap out" from his gang underscores the immense personal sacrifice required to prioritize family over entrenched identities. At [19:22], he shares, “It was the hardest thing I ever had to do in my life,” emphasizing the gravity of such a choice.

3. Emotional Resilience and Hope

   Despite the challenges, many fathers display remarkable resilience. Gilbert’s heartfelt interaction with his children—expressed through activities like decorating crafts together—paints a picture of hope and the human desire for connection. At [28:46], Gilbert explains, “That tunnel... That's my destination,” symbolizing his focus on a better future for his children.

4. Programmatic Intentions and Realities

   The camp was meticulously designed to simulate a celebratory environment, complete with fine dining and structured activities to break the ice between fathers and children. However, the condensed timeline forced the program to navigate unexpected emotional turbulence, particularly when some children struggled to connect with their fathers, as seen with the unnamed father-son duo who faced significant relational barriers.

Insights and Reflections

During the retrospective conversation, Amy, Bruce, and Earlonne reflect on the complexities of producing such an emotionally charged episode. They acknowledge the challenges of capturing authentic interactions without intruding on the participants' vulnerable moments. Amy notes at [37:33], “It's very hard to do well,” highlighting the delicate balance between storytelling and respecting the participants' experiences.

Challenges Faced During Production

1. Pandemic Constraints

   The COVID-19 pandemic imposed strict limitations on in-person interactions, significantly altering the original camp structure. This reduction from five to two days not only intensified the relational dynamics but also compressed the narrative arc, making it difficult to fully explore each father's and child's story.

2. Narrative Cohesion

   The team grappled with maintaining a coherent narrative amidst the fast-paced and multifaceted interactions. Amy critiques the episode’s pacing, stating at [37:30], “The pacing is fast. Totally,” reflecting on how the episode sometimes felt chaotic and scattered due to the ensemble nature of the stories.

3. Handling Sensitive Topics

   Addressing issues like attempted suicide and deep-seated emotional scars required a nuanced approach. The team worked meticulously to present these themes respectfully, ensuring that the rawness of the participants' experiences was neither sensationalized nor sanitized.

Notable Quotes with Timestamp Attribution

• Jose [19:34]: “It feels like you're dying inside because you can't do nothing for the people you love.”

• Gilbert [21:27]: “When I think of freedom, I think of like a lake, you know, of being able to just prone out... That's my destination.”

• Andrew [28:46]: “I love my son, you know, but sometimes I don't know where to start.”

• Amy [41:43]: “You do not like your dad, do you? No,” capturing the heartbreaking reality of strained parent-child relationships.

Conclusion

"Revisiting ‘Camp Grace’" serves as a powerful reminder of the human stories behind incarceration statistics. Through heartfelt discussions and reflective analysis, Ear Hustle’s team sheds light on the nuanced and often painful realities faced by incarcerated fathers and their children. The episode not only revisits a significant moment in the podcast’s history but also underscores the ongoing need for compassionate storytelling in understanding and addressing the impacts of the justice system on families.

By meticulously balancing storytelling with sensitivity, Ear Hustle continues to provide a platform for voices that are often marginalized, fostering empathy and awareness among its listeners.

Transcript

[Nigel Poor]

Earlonne, look at you over there in that sweater.

[Earlonne Woods]

What? You mean my new Quince Mongolian cashmere sweater?

[Nigel Poor]

That is exactly what I'm talking about. It looks fantastic on you.

[Earlonne Woods]

I like yours. You got the V neck sweater on and it looked very soft. And that red is popping. It's like fire engine red.

[Nigel Poor]

Isn't it great? I mean, I love these sweaters. They are elegant and soft. They fit really well. And Earlonne, I actually got two sweaters for less than I often pay for one sweater.

[Earlonne Woods]

Yep, looks great. That's the good things in life, Nigel.

[Nigel Poor]

Exactly. So Quint's offers high quality items at prices within reach. And they don't just sell sweaters. They also have washable silk tops and dresses. And they sell jewelry too. 14 karat gold. So it's fancy stuff, but clearly not at fancy prices.

[Earlonne Woods]

By partnering directly with top factories, Quint's cuts out the cost of the middleman and passes along the savings to us. All Quint's Items are priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands.

[Nigel Poor]

Exactly. And Quince only works with factories that use safe, ethical and responsible manufacturing practices. So you can look good and feel good about where you're spending your money.

[Earlonne Woods]

I love that. Go to quint.comearhustle for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com earhustle to get free shipping and 365 day returns.

[Nigel Poor]

That's quince.com earhustle I love these sweaters. This episode of Ear Hustle is brought to you by Progressive Insurance.

[Earlonne Woods]

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[Nigel Poor]

Visit progressive.com to see if you could.

[Earlonne Woods]

Save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations.

[Bruce]

Okay, we are on. Hello, Amy.

[Amy]

Hello, Bruce.

[Bruce]

Amy, you've been Ear Hustle's editor for folks who don't know, since 2020. 20. 20.

[Amy]

2020.

[Bruce]

Yeah, yeah.

[Amy]

March 2020.

[Bruce]

Does that sound familiar?

[Amy]

Significant thing about that date.

[Bruce]

That's right. March 2020.

[Amy]

Exactly.

[Bruce]

You are the editor, but you're also a lot of other things. Among them a producer. Which means you find stories and then are on the ground when we do those stories and all of those things.

[Amy]

Many of the things you do too, Bruce. Yeah. It's a small team, so I feel like we all get to do all the stuff.

[Bruce]

Yeah. Which is cool. Yeah.

[Amy]

That's something I very much like about this job.

[Bruce]

Totally. And it's relevant for what we're going to talk about here, because I think we're going to talk about an episode that you were the producer on. I think you must have been.

[Amy]

I was, yeah. And then I got Covid halfway through it. Oh, speaking of COVID And had to miss the second leg of it, which will mean more. Do we hear this episode?

[Bruce]

Which is why I was there for the second leg of it.

[Amy]

Exactly.

[Bruce]

I'd forgotten you weren't there for the second leg. Okay.

[Amy]

Yeah, yeah.

[Bruce]

And maybe I should back up and say the idea with these, what we're calling sleeper hits is we've, you know, we've put out 118 episodes or something at this point, and there are a lot of them, and a lot of them we talk about as, like, the best ones we've ever done. There's, like a group of them that we always talk about. But then there's also. We're realizing when you've done this many episodes a lot, that we're also really good that you kind of forget about. So as a staff, we've kind of gone back through the library, through our archive and thought and found episodes that we really loved that we feel like didn't get the attention they deserve. And this is.

[Amy]

Sometimes they have, like one or two just little unforgettable moments that really stuck with you.

[Bruce]

Yeah.

[Amy]

Yeah.

[Bruce]

And what we're gonna listen to is Camp Grace, I guess I should say. And why did you pick this one without giving away any spoilers?

[Amy]

Like you said, it's not one of the episodes that we bring up or play tape from when we do presentations. It was going out on a limb for us. And I don't want to give too much away here, but the show has not ear. Hustle hasn't done a lot with kids because usually we are in prisons. So focusing on kids was a relatively new kind of project for us. And that came with all kinds of interesting challenges, I think. Also, I'm a parent, and so I really. A lot of what we learned from these kids and the hard feelings they had around having parents who are incarcerated, I really just connected with it. Just meant a lot to me. And I think. And I think one thing about your Hustle, I think one thing this show is really good at is just showing how kind of nuanced and complicated and the many shades of gray there can be in a relationship between two people. Yeah. And I think we did that really nicely between parents and their kids in this.

[Bruce]

Yeah. And you are right. That it is one I forget about. Unless people are like, have you talked to kids before? Yeah, unless you're specifically focused, which is. This is one of two, I think, where we've done that.

[Amy]

Yeah. Oh, can I say one other thing? There's this other aspect of this episode, too, again, without being too much away, that let us really talk about gang culture in prison in a way we had never been able to do before. And that was a surprise to all of us. We didn't go in realizing that was going to happen, but it was a real window into a part of the prison population that I don't think any of us had had much exposure to before, other than, I guess, Earlonne. But. So that was really interesting. I learned a lot. There's a lot to navigate there.

[Bruce]

Yeah. That's actually when I think of this episode most, is when we do think about the times that we've been able to talk about gang culture. Yeah.

[Amy]

This is surprisingly an example of that.

[Bruce]

And does anything. We could also return to this after we hear it, but before we listen back to it. Does anything stand out to you from the reporting of it other than that you couldn't go on the second part of it?

[Amy]

I mean. Yeah. And, yeah, it was such a heartbreak. That was. But there's a moment at the very end where Nigel overhears something that really stuck out to me when I listened to this recently. I also. You can cut this out later if you want. But listening back to it made me realize, oh, we've gotten a lot better at narration since then. So when I hear this now, there are parts of it that I feel like a little clunky. And we didn't, you know, we would do a better job now. So it's kind of interesting as an editor to me in that way also. But, yeah, coming back to, you know, what's really in the story, there's some very interesting, complicated, heartbreaking parenting moments. Yeah. That I still think about.

[Bruce]

Yeah. I'm so curious. I don't remember what you're talking about. The overheard thing at the end. And also, let's keep track of the sort of. Maybe it's gonna get too in the weeds, but let's remember to talk about, like, oh, we would have done that differently. Just the editorial decisions.

[Amy]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Bruce]

And sorry, I should have looked this up before we sat down to talk, but I can't remember when this originally aired.

[Amy]

Good question. But it was definitely mid pandemic because it took us a really long time. We were trying to do this episode. Maybe Even from before I joined the team, this had years. We had spent years trying to get permission and access to do this, and it kept getting shut down because of the pandemic. The program itself and then our access to it, you know, we couldn't get in.

[Bruce]

December 22, 2021, that's when this came out. Yeah. Yeah.

[Amy]

Okay. That was pretty early in my Ear Hustle time.

[Bruce]

Interesting. Okay, so we're gonna. Unless there are other things. Other things you want.

[Amy]

No, but I'm excited to listen to this now.

[Bruce]

Yeah. So we're gonna dive in, then we'll pop back in at the mid roll, we call it, which is what you call a thing between the first segment and segment. We'll pop back in there for reflections and then we'll do a wrap up.

[Amy]

Sounds good.

[Bruce]

Camp Grace from December 22, 2021.

[Amy]

This is Alex Watson, editor of Apogee Journal, where we have an upcoming issue featuring incarcerated writers. The following episode of Ear Hustle contains content that may not be suitable for all listeners, including mention of attempted suicide. Discretion is advised.

[Andrew]

My name is Andrew.

[Nigel Poor]

Tell us, what's your dad's name?

[Andrew]

Frankie.

[Nigel Poor]

Do you have any roses?

[Amy]

Nothing good? No.

[Nigel Poor]

No, nothing good. Nothing bad. Okay, then. Thank you.

[Earlonne Woods]

Andrew. Ain't giving up nothing nigg. I don't know. It's like pulling teeth with these kids.

[Nigel Poor]

I know. And I wasn't really sure how it was gonna go. I mean, obviously they were nervous. They were away from home. They were being asked questions by adults they didn't know, and it really brought out the teenager in them.

[Amy]

My name's Elias Gonzalez. I'm a camper. My dad's behind bars. One of my roses are my family, my dog, my cat. Hi, my name is Geneva. My dad's name is Peter. And my rose is. Is that I'll be able to see him.

[Nigel Poor]

So emotionally, I think these kids were all over the map. I mean, they were on the verge of a really important experience.

[Earlonne Woods]

Yep. All of them have dads who are incarcerated. Most of them haven't seen their dads in person in like a year. And for some of them, it's been 10 years.

[Nigel Poor]

A lot of the kids live really far away from the prison, which makes the visits difficult. And also during COVID visits were. Were pretty much shut down for a long time. So there just weren't in person visits happening.

[Earlonne Woods]

But the next day, these kids was gonna go inside Salinas Valley State Prison to spend two full days with their dad. And that's really unusual in the prison system. I know we've Covered family visits where there's an overnight stay with the moms or something.

[Nigel Poor]

And those don't happen very often either.

[Earlonne Woods]

But this is just the kids by themselves spending four days with just their dads in a maximum security level. Four prisoners. But the thing is, when you bring incarcerated dads together with their kids and no other family, it gets complicated. You know.

[Amy]

My rose is that I don't really have a rose. My thorn is. I don't know if I want to see my dad.

[Earlonne Woods]

That's a deep thorn right there.

[Nigel Poor]

Yeah. Yeah, it really is. Well, on this episode, a lot of roses and definitely some thorns.

[Earlonne Woods]

For real. And Nyge, it's also the last episode.

[Nigel Poor]

Of the season that it is, my friend. Today on the show, we are going to camp. Camp Grace. I'm Nigel Poor.

[Earlonne Woods]

And I'm Earlonne Woods. I always wanted to go to camp. This is ear hustle from PRX's Radiotopia.

[Nigel Poor]

Oh, yeah. A few months, just before we recorded those kids doing their roses and thorns, we drove down to Salinas Valley State Prison to meet some of the dads. Oh, it's the first thing.

[Gilbert]

It's the very first thing.

[Earlonne Woods]

They were trying to come up with a dance routine that they were going to perform for their kids. Kind of like the icebreaker, you know, you got These hardcore level 4 ex gang members not accustomed to acting silly and shit.

[Nigel Poor]

Right. But they all knew that this big reunion was coming up and that it might be just really intense for everybody. So the idea was to kick it off with something kind of silly and goofy to get everybody to loosen up and be comfortable. Okay, so walk through that again because.

[Amy]

It'S the first opening second. So how is Gilbert positioned?

[Earlonne Woods]

Gilbert's a big, burly guy. He's got all the ganging all tatted up on his head, on his neck. And surprisingly, he was not the best dancer, really.

[Nigel Poor]

But Earlonne, clearly he was trying, and it was pretty sweet. He obviously wanted it to be great for his kids.

[Jose]

Gilbert Herrera. And my daughter is Gigi and my son's angel. I can't wait till they come, you know, I can't wait. Yeah, I've been looking forward to this.

[Earlonne Woods]

All, all year for all these guys. And I think especially for Gilbert, there was a lot riding on this visit.

[Nigel Poor]

Yeah, I mean, Gilbert hadn't seen his kids in two years, and whenever he could get them on the phone, he could tell that they were having a really hard time. Their mom was struggling, and actually, for a period of time, those kids were put in foster care.

[Jose]

You know, they Got taken away. And that was a big thing for me. Like, I was going through it, you know, and angel just shut down completely. So they got him back, and right now, her mom. Their mom's all lost and stuff, you know, and they deal with this like they grew up fast. Like, Gigi has her belly button pierced. When I found out, I was tripping. I was like, what the heck? And she was like, dad.

[Gilbert]

What?

[Jose]

You're not here. She throws it in my face all the time. Like, they tell me all the time, if you were here, this wouldn't be happening.

[Nigel Poor]

When I hear this, you know, I think about how lopsided relationships can be. When you're in prison, you are completely reliant on that family member outside to make things happen. And if they can't do it, there's nothing you can do. When you're inside, there's nothing.

[Earlonne Woods]

I mean, you only have two forms of communication. It's the letter and the phone. And if you can't get your message out on those two, it's helpless.

[Jose]

It feels like you're dying inside because you can't do nothing for the people you love. You can't hold them. You can't do nothing. What are you. If you can't take care of your own people, you know, like, you can't do nothing for your own kids. What do you do? Them being so little and them being so fragile and knowing the people they wanted to be, and they can't do that because I'm not there. It's a mess of feeling. I try to kill myself a couple of times, as a matter of fact. I try to OD once, and I try to hang myself once in the county jail. There's no living without the people you love, you know?

[Earlonne Woods]

What are you expecting in October?

[Jose]

In October? To see my babies, to hug them, to reassure them that I'm still their daddy and I love them, that they don't have nothing to worry about, that I'm never gonna change on them. And that at the end of the day, when things are hard, we have opportunities like this with Camp Grace, and that Camp Grace is always gonna be there for them.

[Earlonne Woods]

Usually this program, Camp Grace, is longer with the kids coming into the prison every day for five whole days. But because of COVID this year, it's only two days.

[Nigel Poor]

And that means trying to squeeze a whole lot of fathering into a really condensed time.

[Earlonne Woods]

It's a lot of pressure. You know, some of these dads barely know their kids. Maybe they had a visit before, but that's different. It's much shorter, just a few hours. Plus you got the mom talking relationship stuff. It could be other family members there acting like a buffer, but at this camp, it's just the two of them. So it's very intense.

[Nigel Poor]

Exactly. But maybe Earlonne, because there's no buffer. Sometimes there's a breakthrough. And that's exactly what happened with one of the dads, Jose and his son Alex.

[Gilbert]

First camp, he like, third day in, started calling me dad, you know, so.

[Nigel Poor]

So Jose is this small guy and like Gilbert, he's bald and covered with tattoos. He has this very intense, like, coiled up energy, but he also has these beautiful watchful eyes, like he's taking in everything that's happening around him. And he's been coming to camp for a few years with his son.

[Earlonne Woods]

Jose was sent to prison when Alex was just a little kid and there wasn't really time to establish a righteous relationship.

[Nigel Poor]

So when Alex called him dad for the first time, it really stopped him in his tracks.

[Gilbert]

He was going to the bathroom, right? He was like, dad, I'm going to the bathroom. Okay, I'll be right back. I think he just kind of stopped for a pause second to, to see, like, my reaction, you know, So I didn't want to show too much, like, reaction, so I was like, oh, yeah, cool, cool, try to play it off. But it was, it was a big thing for both of us.

[Nigel Poor]

And what did that feel like?

[Gilbert]

It felt good. It actually made me feel like a dad for once. I knew I had a son. I knew I loved him and it would hurt, something would happen to him, but I never really felt like his dad, you know, so once I saw myself as a dad, I started asking myself, well, would my son be proud of this decision that I'm making?

[Nigel Poor]

You know, so this decision he's referring to, this is something we have always wanted to talk about on the show and we just never could.

[Earlonne Woods]

Yep. The ramifications of gang life in prison, that's a tricky subject, Nigel.

[Nigel Poor]

So one of the main rules of Camp Grace is that if you want to participate and see your kids, you have to go through a whole year without getting any write ups in prison, basically, you got to have a clean record.

[Earlonne Woods]

But when you're in a prison gang, that's really hard to do because if you're affiliated, you live by the gang rules. You have to go out on the yard at certain times, do whatever they say. And sometimes that means doing the kind of shit that not only would get you written up, but we'll probably get you Another case in court. Honestly, it's hard to find people to talk about this on this show because there's such a strict ass code around this gang shit in prison. So anyone who talk about it is technically putting their life in danger.

[Nigel Poor]

Right? Jose and the other guys in this program, well, pretty much all of them were gang members, really tied up in the politics of the Mexican prison gang culture.

[Earlonne Woods]

But they wanted to keep seeing their kids, so they made the decision to tap out.

[Nigel Poor]

And when you leave a prison gang, basically your whole world changes. You're taken away from the main line and put into protective custody.

[Gilbert]

It was the hardest thing I ever had to do in my life. I wrote it on a piece of paper, like, five times, like, hey, like, I need to leave, or. And then crumple and throw it away. Like, I can't do this. Like, what am I doing? Like, at least five, six times that day.

[Earlonne Woods]

You know, the day Jose finally decided to drop out, he didn't go out to the yard like he was supposed to under gang protocol. He just stayed in his cell.

[Gilbert]

The officer noticed something was off because they ran yard and I didn't go. And then when you're in those type of yards, everything's mandatory. So he came up there, and I just told him in Spanish, like, hey, I need to leave. I need to get out of here. And he just looked at me, you know, he's like, are you serious? And I was like, yeah, I'm done. You know? I was like, all right. And then they just called me out of medical and took me to the gym. What that entails is just that I'm renouncing everything that I've ever known, everything that I've ever believed, every friend that I ever made along the way, I turned my back on them.

[Nigel Poor]

So they just. You leave your cell, you go to the gym. That's it. You don't see anyone again. You don't say goodbye to people.

[Gilbert]

No, you don't say goodbye to anybody. Nothing, you know, and they just take you to the hole from there.

[Earlonne Woods]

That's how it works. They take you to the hole for protection until they can move you to a different part of the prison where you'll be safe.

[Nigel Poor]

And so he was really breaking with everybody, not just the people inside prison, but outside too.

[Earlonne Woods]

Because Jose grew up in this gang life shit, so this was gonna affect not only the prison shit, but his street life as well.

[Gilbert]

One of the officers told me that day, like, it can't be harder than coming to prison. Coming to prison for us is like, A rite of passage, you know, it's like something we look forward to, that I used to look forward to. Like a dumbass, excuse my language. But that's just the way that it was growing up. Blue shirts. I was expected to come to prison.

[Nigel Poor]

Was there anyone you were able to talk to about dropping out? Anyone in your family or. No, it's all in an internal dialog. It sounds so hard.

[Gilbert]

It's harder than what I'm making it seem. It was the hardest thing I ever had to do, but I think it's the best choice I think I've ever made.

[Nigel Poor]

Jose told us the way he got through this was to create a kind of tunnel vision. He just focused on the one thing that he really wanted and he tried to block everything else out.

[Gilbert]

When I think of freedom, I think of like a lake, you know, of being able to just prone out, like on a lawn chair with a fishing pole and like a little cooler right there. And my kid. That's like the perfect theme for me. It makes it easier for me not to partake in certain things because they don't fit in my little picture. I have my little picture. And whatever it takes to get there, that's what I'm gonna do. At the end of the tunnel, just that light, that picture, that lake, that's it. That's my destination.

[Nigel Poor]

How often do you look in that tunnel?

[Gilbert]

Every day in the morning. Every day in the morning, I wake up and I see myself there. My. There's my goal.

[Amy]

When we get caught. Not sleeping, Miss Candice be scaring homie, you know that. Dang it. Wait.

[Earlonne Woods]

Fast forward a couple of months and we're hanging with MC Alex.

[Nigel Poor]

Yep, that's the kid Jose cannot wait to see.

[Amy]

Always, always ready to get some ladies. Hit me up. I'm 13 years old. I'm about 5 4. I got brown eyes, slicked back hair. You already know I treat you right.

[Nigel Poor]

I can cook, I can clean. Oh my God. Earlonne. Those kids, I don't know what to say. They were hyped, right?

[Earlonne Woods]

Hell yeah, they was hyped.

[Nigel Poor]

And there was this one kid, Geneva, the only girl in the program. She took over our microphone and was like, let me at it. Let me at it.

[Earlonne Woods]

We arrived at the prison at about 8 in the morning. Everyone had to get processed to go in, which took forever ever.

[Nigel Poor]

Then finally it was time to head into the visiting room where the dads were all just waiting.

[Amy]

Are you ready?

[Nigel Poor]

So we walked into the visiting room. It's this kind of big space. It looks a Bit like an elementary school. But you can tell you're in prison, right, because of the signs of like, don't go there. Don't touch this. It's echoey. And when those kids went in, it.

[Earlonne Woods]

Was loud and there were the dads all standing there and kind of like a zigzaggy, awkward ass line.

[Nigel Poor]

As soon as the kids walked in, they ran to their fathers. Like they were all jumping into each other's arms. There was hugging and screeching and the room was just full of this, I don't know, this delightful positive energy. It was like they were saying, we're here.

[Earlonne Woods]

And Alex ran right up to his dad. Jose gave him a big old hug.

[Nigel Poor]

And Geneva, the one who was singing that K pop song, she was jumping all over her dad.

[Earlonne Woods]

And then there was Andrew. He was the kid who was so quiet at the top of our show. His dad Frankie was just standing there with this huge grin on his face.

[Nigel Poor]

I wish you could see your own face right now. You look like a kid. You look so happy. Your eyes are like this big and like smile and you're just glowing.

[Gilbert]

Thank you.

[Nigel Poor]

Really great to see it.

[Gilbert]

This kind of feels like freedom, to be honest.

[Amy]

Everywhere we move in there, we have guns on us. You know, everything's controlled right here.

[Gilbert]

All the walls come down and it's relaxing.

[Amy]

But at the same time, because it's something different. I'm nervous. Like I'm out of my. My element.

[Gilbert]

This is something different. Like, you know, the making small talk, the, you know, feeling, filling all these hours, enjoying this blessing. But also, like I say, I'm nervous because I want it to be so good.

[Amy]

I'm like, I want it to be comfortable. I want him to be happy. I want to, you know, I want this to be a great experience for him.

[Nigel Poor]

Yeah. I mean, obviously there are going to be a lot of emotions and nerves on that first morning. So before long, it was time for an icebreaker. And e, you know what time it was?

[Earlonne Woods]

Can't touch this, Nigel. I was looking at the kids faces as they watched a daddy's dance. And some of them probably was feeling embarrassed to watch it and some of them was enjoying it, you know?

[Amy]

Yeah.

[Nigel Poor]

I mean, that screeching of the sneaker on the floor kind of says it all. It had that kind of feel to it. But honestly, I think all the kids got into it because, remember, eventually the dads were like beckoning them to come up and join them and they all did.

[Earlonne Woods]

Yeah, it was cool. It was cool to watch.

[Nigel Poor]

And then as the Day went on. You know, you could really see the relationships developing. You know, like, that icebreaker works.

[Gilbert]

He's tolerating me. He's taller than me.

[Nigel Poor]

Jose kept checking out how tall Alex was and, like, seeing how good his fade was.

[Earlonne Woods]

Yep. And then you had Frankie and them over there just, you know, like, patting each other, you know what I'm saying? Like, I don't know if it was boxing pats or it was something.

[Nigel Poor]

That's right.

[Amy]

Probably.

[Nigel Poor]

And Geneva, she kept asking her dad about, when am I gonna get that cat? Mom said I could get a cat, definitely.

[Earlonne Woods]

And he was just like, soon.

[Amy]

Soon.

[Bruce]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Amy]

So I'm getting the cat.

[Nigel Poor]

Does your dad know about this plan?

[Jose]

I do now.

[Nigel Poor]

But then e, there was that one dad and his kid, and honestly, I could hardly look over there. And this was the kid who, the night before camp told us that his thorn was. He wasn't sure he wanted to see his dad.

[Earlonne Woods]

Yeah. And now he was finally with his dad, and it was hella awkward. I mean, every time the father hugged his son, the son just went limp. Arms down, no interaction. Like, who is this dude?

[Nigel Poor]

His mom asked that we not use her son's name.

[Earlonne Woods]

So we'll just say that the dad is a tall cat, one of the older dads in the room. And he has this old school sports type of build.

[Nigel Poor]

And at one point I pulled him over to ask how it was going. So what have you learned about your son and yourself?

[Andrew]

Well, I learned about my son, that he got his own mind. And I learned about him, too, that it's like I've been gone for 10 years. And it's like that gap where I give him a shower and sit him on his high chair, change his Pampers and whatnot.

[Bruce]

That.

[Andrew]

That is over. I gotta go forward. But even in that, it's some bumps at the end of the day. I really don't know him.

[Nigel Poor]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

From 10 years. I don't know him.

[Nigel Poor]

How does it feel to have to say I don't know my son?

[Andrew]

It feels like your choices that you make could shatter a whole bunch of stuff like glass. You can't put a bottle back together. Once you're broke. It's like reaching for the wind just going through your hand. You know what I mean? It's like, wow. Just. Just smoke, you know? When it's all said and done, it's like, smoke.

[Nigel Poor]

Like, does that hurt?

[Andrew]

Yeah. Because you're searching for a relationship that's not there. You know what I mean?

[Amy]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

And it's like, man, where do you.

[Nigel Poor]

Start at, so what did you learn about him?

[Andrew]

I learned about. He's not. No, he's not. No, he's not. No, dummy. And he. He got his guards up to the fullest, and that's. That's a good thing. And that's what I pray God. Guard his heart. Guard his heart and his mind.

[Nigel Poor]

Do you think he has his guard up against you right now?

[Andrew]

I think that he's mostly. He's mostly hurt. I think. I love my son, you know, but sometimes I don't know where to start.

[Earlonne Woods]

I was watching that dad and his son. You know, their table was sort of, like, off to the side of the room, a bit away from the others, and often seemed very quiet, like they wasn't really talking to each other. The son face was hella long, and he was looking down and shit, you know?

[Amy]

Yeah.

[Nigel Poor]

But then other times, they'd be working on a craft project together, and it seemed like maybe they were connecting just a little bit.

[Earlonne Woods]

Yeah. Like, I remember one time they were decorating a shaker, and the kid decided he wanted to decorate it with the dad's birth year and then the kid's birth year. So the kid painted it blue and gold, which he said was, like these royal colors to him.

[Nigel Poor]

I know, it was cool. It was, like, suggesting there was some connection between them. And this is a deliberate idea on the part of the camp organizers. So they have all these craft projects so the dads and the kids can basically create together. They call it side by side work. So they create something instead of just sitting there looking at each other like, what do we do now?

[Earlonne Woods]

Right. Right. And then at the end of the day, you know what it was time for, right?

[Nigel Poor]

Mm.

[Earlonne Woods]

Another round of roses and thorns.

[Amy]

A thorn is that tomorrow's our last day and that I don't get to take food home.

[Jose]

My rose is being able to be silly and obviously spend, you know, all your time with your child and able to take that shine with you out there to the yard.

[Amy]

Me and my dad did each other's nails. Seeing my dad, like, seeing how happy.

[Earlonne Woods]

He is, well, I guess my roles is just having the opportunity to walk back in here and hang out. You know, I spent years in here in this place. So one of the thorns is. It's always kind of bittersweet, you know, But I can just. I can walk out. But just leaving cats in here and, you know, not seeing y'all going home with y'all kids, that is. That's a hell of thorn.

[Nigel Poor]

For me. There was one big Thorn hanging over the whole day. And it had to do with Gilbert, that burly guy whose kids had spent time in foster care.

[Earlonne Woods]

Yeah. Gilbert was so worried about those kids and really desperate to see them.

[Nigel Poor]

But after all of that, his kids didn't show up to camp.

[Earlonne Woods]

And we'll talk about that after the break.

[Bruce]

All right.

[Amy]

All right.

[Bruce]

Part one.

[Amy]

Yeah. A lot happened. I know.

[Bruce]

What stood out to you? Like what? I guess maybe before. Let's not start with what we would change.

[Amy]

Okay. There are some things.

[Bruce]

What memories were jogged for you or what kind of stood out for you?

[Amy]

I remember so clearly, and this was a long time ago, but I really remember that interview with Gilbert. He's that guy at the top. He stuck with me more than anyone else. His desperation to see those kids was so palpable. And obviously, people in prison don't want to be there. They're longing to be outside. But it was just so he couldn't. He didn't know what to do with his body. I mean, he was just like, he was boiling over with this need to get out and take care of his kids.

[Bruce]

Yeah.

[Amy]

It was really heartbreaking.

[Bruce]

Yeah. I remember because we ended up at the last minute doing the handoff where I became the producer there, because you couldn't go to the second one, the follow up.

[Amy]

Right. So I never. I did not. I was not there when the kids came in, and I never met any of the kids. I only met the dads and when they were sort of doing their, you know, can't touch this dance and stuff like that.

[Bruce]

Yeah. But I remember when we went down, we were like, we have to follow up with Gilbert because it was so important to him that he got to see his kids this day. I remember when we got there and found out the kids weren't coming. It was one of several things. We're like, whoa, is this not gonna work out? You know, like, how is this.

[Amy]

It was a real heartbreak. Everything about him was a heartbreak. And. Yeah. And the fact, you know, and the kids were not. They weren't doing great.

[Bruce]

And I was thinking this would have been one of the first trips, if not the first trip we made to another prison.

[Amy]

Yeah.

[Bruce]

I think Earlonne, Nigel, and I had been to maybe Lancaster before this, but this was this.

[Amy]

I had only been to San Quentin and even there maybe a couple times because the pandemic had kept us out of there, too. But I remember this is a prison Earlonne had spent a lot of time at. And so I remember showing up there and him saying, oh, yeah, that's you know, that this is, I think. Well, anyway, yeah, he'd spent a bunch of years as Selena's. I remember how tattooed these guys were. I mean, these guys were really, you know, full facial tattoos, neck like all, all the stuff.

[Bruce]

Yeah. It's interesting the different prisons really have different cultures and different. It's not just. I mean, this was a level four prison, which is higher level than San Quentin, but then this was the protective custody yard. So it was like definitely a different group of folks.

[Amy]

Yeah. And these were guys who had, I mean, like, what's his name? Was it Jose? I can't remember. Like one of them, like Jose says, you know, they'd all made this really, you know, life altering decision to get out of the gang that they'd been in. In prison and before prison too, and kind of cut off contact with many of the people in their lives and. And that's a really dangerous decision. And so they were now all living in this smaller protective custody part of the prison, which seemed, you know, kind of, kind of lonely. And I didn't get the sense that a lot of them had much going for them other than this like, opportunity or this chance to see their kids.

[Bruce]

I do wonder, I was trying to think why the circumstances here allowed them to talk more openly about leaving the gang gangs. Because my memory is when we've tried to talk to folks before about it, it hasn't just been that they weren't in a safe place. Like, I feel like to a certain extent people never totally feel safe about talking about it. Because we've talked to people who are like years after gang involvement and out of prison.

[Amy]

Yeah.

[Bruce]

And they still just talk about things in very vague terms. You know, if they're willing to talk about it at all. And it's kind of unusual that they're willing to talk about it at all though, even here.

[Amy]

I mean, there's certain things that you don't ever really hear. Right. I mean, I'm listening to myself say and I'm like, am I allowed to talk about this?

[Nigel Poor]

I think.

[Amy]

I don't know. But anyway, yeah. This idea that when you're in a prison gang, you really. Those are the rules that you live by. And you can't just hang out in your cell all day. You have to be boots on the ground in the yard. And if you are asked to do something, you have to do it. Of course, what we never talk about is what that might actually entail. You know, is it trafficking of something? Is it violence? Is it retribution? Is it, you know. And that all is really kind of off limits stuff for Ear Hustle. Yeah. But, you know, listening to this, I liked how we. I thought we handled that well. And I was hearing Earlonne, just a really nice way of describing that without crossing any lines. And I. I know we worked really hard on that. That language went through many, many revisions. And I felt. I felt proud of how we kind of how we handled it in the end.

[Bruce]

Yeah. Other notes. And now don't hold back about things. You would change.

[Amy]

I mean, definitely at the top. One thing I like about Ear Hustle is that we often kind of throw people into a situation before really explaining what's going on. We pretty much always start with what we would call a cold opener, which is just some tape. And then afterwards you find out who's talking and the context for it. But here I wonder how a listener would hear this, who had no idea what this episode was. It to me felt pretty confusing and kind of all over the place. There's not this sort of laying it out. You know, here's where we are. Here's how this program works. It's a little all over the place.

[Bruce]

Yeah. That was my main note.

[Amy]

The sort of.

[Bruce]

The way we explain the motivation for each scene and then the way we get between the different scenes is very. Because we're also like hopping back and forth in time.

[Amy]

Exactly. The chronology is confusing. Yeah. I think we had a lot of good tape. But these ensemble kinds of episodes where there's no main character, there's just a bunch of characters, each of whom has some really good tape. But no one's really stealing the show. They're hard to assemble because it's hard to keep track of who's who and what their backstory is. And what's the deal with their kid again. And what's their kid's name. And there's the. It's very hard to do well. And when you don't nail it, it can sound a little scattershot. And to me, this all sounds a little scattershot.

[Bruce]

Yeah. I wonder how much of it also was that, like, you always have to improvise. Cause the plan you go in with is never what actually happens. But I think that happened maybe more than average with this one. Because, you know, I think we were thinking, well, Gilbert was amazing. Like his reunion with his kids. And the kids. We'll talk to the kids, we'll get to know them. Maybe that's the through line that obviously didn't happen. I also remember. Cause I was the one at first we heard the kids being super awkward around the microphone. I was there for that one. Cause that was the second trip. And at that point we were like, wait, is this not gonna work? These kids just do not talk at all.

[Amy]

Kids are so hard for all the.

[Bruce]

Reasons that are totally understandable. Like, you know, they're in a very vulnerable moment, and they're around these strangers holding microphones around them, and they're around all these peers that they know to a certain extent, but they don't know that well. But, yeah, there are all these, I think, ideas we had about how this episode would go that didn't actually play out, which is some of the joy of the work, too. But I wonder if part of that was, you know, part of the feeling that we're kind of trying to figure out how to tell this story still in the episode.

[Amy]

Yeah. These were young kids, too. I mean, right. I mean, they were, like, pre teen, right? Yeah. Young teenagers.

[Bruce]

Yeah.

[Amy]

Yeah. Many challenges. The pacing is fast. Totally. Yeah. I wanted to kind of have some moments where we as listeners could kind of just catch our breaths and think about what we just heard. And I feel like we're always kind of racing on to the next thing. So I don't think the pacing is great.

[Bruce]

We talk about that a lot when we listen back to old episodes. And I think that's like, an influence you've had more than anybody, probably is just, like, getting the pacing locked in. Cause, yeah, it really requires a mix of. And I think maybe we've traditionally had, like, one.

[Amy]

One rhythm, one speed that we kind of do everything at. And then.

[Bruce]

And we're telling more and more stories that require different speeds, I think. And this was definitely one of them, even though they all get a little jumbled together because of the structure. The. Like, the characters on the top are very vivid. Like, the people are very, like, you want to know more about all of them, if you like.

[Amy]

And that's what I mean. That's why I picked this episode, is because there are these. I mean, again, Gilbert and his. Just that desperation. The guy who says, I love my son, but I don't know where to start. You know, I wrote this. At the end of the day, I don't know him. I mean, that's a. What's it like to have to say that, you know, to a stranger and to a microphone, about your relationship with your son? And he says, he's very beautiful. You know, it's like reaching for the wind in your hands. Yeah. I found that really just really heavy and really Striking and really raw.

[Bruce]

I was trying to remember listening to that because I know we had a lot of conversations about how we would talk about that particular relationship. The, like, father and son who were kind of the exception, and they just felt, like, very tense and uncomfortable between them. I can't quite remember what the conversations we had were.

[Amy]

Well, we didn't use his name. I mean, everyone else gets named. And we did not give that father's or that kid's name. And it's not. We had permission to record them. We didn't want something out in the world that they would listen back to and feel, you know, you don't want to affect their relationship in a negative way.

[Bruce]

Yeah, totally.

[Amy]

Somehow it gave them more chances. Yeah.

[Bruce]

But you definitely want to, like, reflect that. Obviously, this is not all, like, oh, yeah. Uncomplicated situation.

[Amy]

Yeah. They called me dad for the first time. I mean, that's beautiful. But the reality is that. And we've done a couple stories about incarcerated parents and kids, and every time there's some story in there about a relationship that is just like, it doesn't seem like it's ever going to work.

[Bruce]

Yeah.

[Amy]

And that's. You can't. Can't do this topic without being honest about those relationships, too. I mean, situations where literally incarceration just does kind of end a relationship between a parent and child, which must be passing it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Bruce]

I was wondering why we don't have. As the producer there, when. On the second visit, which was when the kids and the fathers met.

[Amy]

Yeah.

[Bruce]

Wondered why we didn't have more of the tape. Of what? Of the moments you would want to hear, which is the. Like, them seeing each other for the first time, and then the parents and the kids kind of sitting down and talking. I don't remember why we don't actually hear that.

[Nigel Poor]

That's right.

[Amy]

We don't really hear that. Don't you think you guys just didn't want to intrude on that. You were just.

[Bruce]

That was. I think that's the explanation for why we don't have, like, you know, Jose and his son, like, in a deep conversation right at the beginning. Because you don't want to. You want them to have that moment without strangers with microphones there. I don't know why we wouldn't have the. Like, the kids came in. Cause Nigel even describes, like, it was all this, like, amazing energy in the.

[Amy]

Room, in the ambient. You can't hear that at all. I know she's saying it's really loud, but it doesn't Sound that way.

[Bruce]

It sounds like very quiet, actually. And I can't actually. I mean, another part of it, I was reminded you can hear Nigel has a mask on. So I'm not quite sure how distant we had to be.

[Amy]

Just, oh, wow. You were needing to keep.

[Bruce]

I mean, we were obviously, you know, we would do interviews outside and with boom poles and all of that. I don't know if that was a factor, too.

[Amy]

Oh, that's interesting.

[Bruce]

It's interesting. Like, a lot of the key scenes and the scenes we're describing, you don't actually hear. Even though we were there.

[Amy]

Yeah. You don't hear a ton of kids interacting with their parents. Sorry not to belabor this, Bruce.

[Bruce]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I really fucked this up. It's fair.

[Amy]

It's fair. You hear enough. You hear enough. It is.

[Bruce]

I mean, that's. Yeah. It's an awkward thing as a producer, you know. Cause you want to get those moments that are gonna make the story work, but you also don't want to invade on what is like a super important time that you can mess up, your presence could mess up.

[Amy]

And it does feel much more important to let these moments happen between a parent and their child than to get your good tape for your podcast.

[Bruce]

Yeah.

[Amy]

So in the moment, you tend to make the. Or often make the more kind of conservative decision or respectful decision, whatever you want to call it. But yeah, this story, you know, is a little less for it.

[Bruce]

Sorry, listeners, but that's my excuse. Yeah. Any other thoughts before we actually go to the aforementioned break and then we'll come back and listen to the second segment?

[Amy]

No.

[Bruce]

One more thing I just thought of randomly was we haven't always. Or Ear Hustle hasn't always been a show that focuses on scenes and moments and being in a space, you know, as much as actually it is about, you know, it's traditionally been about San Quentin scenes. Stories with scenes, I feel like, is something we came to a little later. And I wonder where in our development around that this came. This might have been earlier on.

[Amy]

This might have been one of the earlier ones because, yeah, you were kind of an interview show, really. You know, guys come down to the media lab, you interview them about their thing.

[Bruce]

Yeah. And some of that's probably because, you know, you can't move around a prison that easily.

[Amy]

Right. Surprisingly, so many scenes you can record. Right, right, exactly. So interviewing kids, in a way, was, of course, going to be, you know, outside of a prison, primarily. And so that creates the opportunity for scenes.

[Bruce]

Yeah.

[Amy]

But, yeah, it's a whole different kind of skill set. I mean, it's a different writing skill set. You know, it's a different thing to write around scenes and narrate something that's happening rather than, you know, narrate through an interview.

[Bruce]

And it's different production wise and knowing. Like, there are definitely spots in there where I hear, like, the scene Ambi not working like it would even if we had the right scene Ambi, like, we didn't actually mix it in. And skillful, as skillfully as we might have.

[Amy]

I heard a little double breath in there. Did you hear that?

[Bruce]

Oh, I didn't hear that. Yeah, I heard stuff that was too loud and stuff where transition. You were describing something in narration, but it doesn't actually happen in the Ambi at the right time.

[Amy]

Oh, that's funny. I didn't even notice that. Yeah, it's hard to do.

[Bruce]

Totally. It's very fun, but hard to do well. Yeah, so give us a break. Do you remember there being some disagreements about where to use roses and thorns? Or was it just that I. Or is it that I feel like you sometimes play the very unsentimental person in the editorial process? I wonder if I just remember us cutting way back on the roses and thorns.

[Amy]

That's right. I think I was the only person who'd ever heard of roses and thorns before because it's like a thing that my kids, you know, we do at dinner sometimes with my family. And I don't think I'd heard of it before. Yeah. And I know Nigel and Earlonne hadn't heard of it before, so I think I was a little like, more jaded about it or just like, I don't know. We need to lean on this thing so hard.

[Bruce]

You know, everybody has to have their roots.

[Amy]

Rose and their thorn each time. Right, Exactly. I think I wanted to pull back from that. Also, kids, you know, they don't always say the most interesting stuff. Often it's interesting kind of despite themselves rather than like the thing themselves that they're saying that makes sense. So I think I wanted the kid tape that was a little more kind of less performative. And Roses and Thorns is kind of a performance you do in front of, you know, all the adults who want to hear you say something meaningful about your, you know, your dad or whatever. It felt a little less fresh.

[Bruce]

It's interesting. You're probably the person on the editorial team with the most up close and personal experience with kids. So I wonder if that means, like, your tolerance for their bullshit is exactly.

[Amy]

That kid's just trying to act cute. You know that's right.

[Bruce]

We were such suckers. The rest of us were so naive. Now we'll go to the break.

[Jose]

We.

[Nigel Poor]

Want to tell you about a new show from Radiotopia Presents Red for Revolution. It's a six part audio drama about black women, queer love and liberation.

[Earlonne Woods]

In the series you will meet Jasmine, an 18 year old who's grappling with her emerging queer identity and first crush. All while trying to mend her relationship with her homophobic mother.

[Nigel Poor]

To find solace in guidance, Jasmine turns to her grandmother. These conversations transport us back to 1971 to follow the passionate love affair between a jazz singer and an activist.

[Earlonne Woods]

This show has everything. Romance, family drama, history, fantastic original music and a killer cast including Loretta Devine, Esopetha Merkerson, Danny Glover and Jennifer Beals.

[Nigel Poor]

Radiotopia presents Red for Revolution. Wherever you get your podcasts listeners, do.

[Earlonne Woods]

You want even more Ear Hustle and even fewer ads? Like zero, zilch, nothing, Nada.

[Nigel Poor]

If so, subscribe to Ear Hustle Plus.

[Earlonne Woods]

Ear Hustle plus subscribers get access to ad free episodes and bonus episodes.

[Nigel Poor]

Our Ear Hustle plus episodes are really fun. Subscribers can find out what's happening with people they've heard on previous episodes and they can also send in questions for us to answer.

[Earlonne Woods]

And me and Nigel get to sit here and chop it up with our producer Bruce and just talk about whatever.

[Nigel Poor]

If you want to hear more of that, subscribe to ear [e-mail] or directly in Apple Podcasts.

[Earlonne Woods]

And thanks for supporting the show. We appreciate y'all. And send in some provocative questions, spicy questions. On the second day of camp, the staff brought out this big old cake and a gang of cupcakes and they.

[Nigel Poor]

All sang Happy Birthday.

[Earlonne Woods]

It's like a gumbo of everybody names when they get to that part.

[Nigel Poor]

Exactly. Because they are celebrating everyone's birthdays, all the kids birthdays and all the dad's birthdays.

[Earlonne Woods]

Pretty much making up for lost time. You know.

[Nigel Poor]

Everything about Camp Grace is deliberate and that includes how the meals are served.

[Earlonne Woods]

First of all, let's just be clear, they did not serve inside food.

[Nigel Poor]

Nope.

[Earlonne Woods]

This stuff came from an Italian restaurant.

[Nigel Poor]

Yeah. Kind of like fine dining. Right.

[Earlonne Woods]

Street food.

[Nigel Poor]

And the tables where people sit are also very intentional. It kind of looks like a wedding. There's these four or six top tables. They have tablecloths on them, centerpieces, place settings, balloons. It's really. Yeah, it's like you're at a party. So at each table there's a dad and a kid, a prison official, and then somebody from either Ear Hustle or. Or from the Camp Grace organization. And the idea is to set it up again like it's a party. You're just meeting and there's small talk. There isn't like a hierarchy. You're sitting and just having a good time.

[Earlonne Woods]

The only hierarchy was the dads were served first, and then they had them served by the warden and associate wardens, which is some shit that you would never see happen in prison.

[Nigel Poor]

But again, there was intention to it. The idea was for the kids to see their dads being treated with dignity and respect by people who are normally seen as. What? How would you describe it, Earlonne?

[Earlonne Woods]

I would describe it as by the oppressors. More meatballs?

[Gilbert]

Sure.

[Earlonne Woods]

How about eggplant?

[Bruce]

Eggplant Parmesan.

[Jose]

I'm not a big salad guy, but.

[Bruce]

I would try it.

[Nigel Poor]

Over the course of the camp, you could see some of the kids and the dads really warming up to each other. But e, there was that one big thorn hanging over the whole camp.

[Earlonne Woods]

Yep. Gilbert. The guy who was so worried about his kids.

[Nigel Poor]

The day before camp was supposed to start, Gilbert got some devastating news. The mother of his kids had changed her mind. She wasn't going to let Gigi and Angel come to camp after all. What made you come here today?

[Jose]

I don't know. My seti just pushed me and pushed me and pushed me, and he wanted me to meet his son. And I don't know, man, I. I didn't want to come. I really didn't. But he was. He's right, you know? Like, I at least owe it to all of them, you know, to show my face. I am part of the Cam Gray family, you know?

[Nigel Poor]

Is there any way to explain that? What is. What does that feel like? Or what is that?

[Jose]

Like, I've heard, you know, like I've heard I've lost family members, cousins. I lost friends. I've. This pain is like a different type of pain. Like you're taking something away from me that really, really means everything to me. Those children gave me a purpose to live in life. You know, I gave up my neighborhood. I dropped out. I did everything that I never thought I would do for people that, like, I didn't care about life, you know, I have very little regard for life, you know, and the game that I was a part of. You couldn't care about life. You couldn't care about somebody else. And falling in love with these children, like, it gave me a real purpose to live.

[Nigel Poor]

Can I Make a physical observation.

[Jose]

No.

[Nigel Poor]

You are so tense, and I feel like you're about to explode. Not in anger, but in something.

[Earlonne Woods]

That knee hasn't stopped yet.

[Nigel Poor]

Yeah. Or your hands haven't stopped moving. Just everything about you seems tight.

[Jose]

Yeah. T you. Yeah.

[Earlonne Woods]

It was interesting to see all the relationships, they were all a little different. Frankie, he was taking this father's knows best approach, you know, kind of stiff and formal.

[Nigel Poor]

Yeah. And Alex and Jose, they were super physical. I mean, they couldn't stop touching each other. Every time I looked over there, their hands were just like, everywhere. It was kind of like Jose was afraid if he stopped touching him, his kid was going to disappear.

[Earlonne Woods]

Disappear?

[Jose]

Poof.

[Nigel Poor]

Yeah.

[Earlonne Woods]

And Geneva, she had this kind of bossy relationship with her pops, you know, she'd be like, like, I'm gonna paint your nails, dad. And he just sit there like, okay, okay.

[Nigel Poor]

Exactly. But then there was one dad and his son we mentioned earlier were not using their names, but they were the ones who were having a hard time connecting.

[Earlonne Woods]

And this was a hard one. I mean, I know he wanted to have a relationship with his son, but it just seemed like he didn't have any idea of how to reach him and how to get there, you know?

[Nigel Poor]

No. Yep.

[Andrew]

I was raised up different. My mom and my daddy, they ain't never sat me down, said, this is what I did, and confessed their sins to me, you know what I mean? Their errors or their ways and whatnot. They ain't never did that. And I love their dirty socks in spite of that. And I think that was healthy, too. Some things is better not known. Because God, even God, when you come to him, he say, throw your sins in the sea of forgiveness. If there's not a daddy to show them truth, where is they gonna find the truth?

[Nigel Poor]

What has that happened with your son here?

[Andrew]

I believe that that's what he see. He see I'm sound. I'm not somebody telling my son, cuz, you better, man. Cuz I'm up in here, man. Cuz don't be. Ain't doing none of that now. Go to school, son. Get your education. Get to know your creator. See what God said.

[Nigel Poor]

Oh, boy, man. His main strategy was to just talk about God, and it wasn't working.

[Earlonne Woods]

Yeah. I tried to step in and, you know, offer a little advice to him, you know. Can I make a quick suggestion?

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Earlonne Woods]

You going to be open for it?

[Andrew]

Yeah.

[Earlonne Woods]

Just don't talk religion all day to him.

[Andrew]

Okay. I'm trying not talk about you and.

[Earlonne Woods]

Him and try to leave God For a minute.

[Andrew]

Okay. I'm trying to connect on that level, and I'm trying to too. I'll do that.

[Earlonne Woods]

Trust me.

[Andrew]

I trust you.

[Earlonne Woods]

All right.

[Bruce]

All right.

[Nigel Poor]

Do you think it worked, Earlonne?

[Earlonne Woods]

Well, one thing I've learned about Christians in prison. Nah. They base everything on God. In Jesus.

[Nigel Poor]

As the day wrapped up, it was back to roses and thorns.

[Jose]

My roses that I got to come and spend time with everybody. My thorns are that my kids didn't get to come.

[Amy]

My rose.

[Gilbert]

The kids love the energy that they.

[Bruce]

Bring to this place.

[Amy]

My rose is that I got to paint my dad's face and his nails. And my thorn is that I did not finish the Italian food. My rose is that I had a lot of fun playing football today and dancing and rapping.

[Andrew]

My thorn. Yeah. Grieving because I haven't been around my children. The relationship and the bond that we had was taken away when I came to prison, and I grieved for him. That's my thorn.

[Amy]

My rose was being here, talking to everyone, playing with the football outside, running around.

[Earlonne Woods]

And with that, Camp Grace was coming to a close.

[Gilbert]

Goodbye, Camp Grace. Goodbye, your hustle. One, two, three.

[Andrew]

Goodbye, Memphis.

[Earlonne Woods]

Goodbye, your hustle.

[Gilbert]

Till next year.

[Nigel Poor]

Earlonne. There was this moment as the kids were leaving the prison, and they were talking about how the camp had gone.

[Earlonne Woods]

It's pretty hard to hear, but as they're walking out, one of the kids said to another kid, you really don't like your dad, do you?

[Amy]

You do not like your dad, do you? No.

[Nigel Poor]

And this was the kid who was really having a hard time bonding with his dad.

[Earlonne Woods]

Yeah, the dad I was trying to give the advice to, like, don't talk about God so much.

[Nigel Poor]

Exactly. In this situation, girl. And I hate to say it, but there was part of me that was asking myself, during this camp, does every kid really need to be united with their parent in prison? Because sometimes it just might not work for everyone.

[Earlonne Woods]

Yeah. I mean, some kids are forced to go into that visitor room to see the other parent, you know, and you had these situations where a lot of times the kids ain't feeling it, because, you know, personally, I have a nephew that kind of hates his dad because his dad been in prison his whole life. There's no relationship, no communication. There's. You know, it's a big blank for those kids. Kids, in a way.

[Nigel Poor]

Yeah. Yep. About a week after camp, I ran into Jenny, one of the organizers of Camp Grace. Remember when we were walking out of San Quentin, and I asked her about that kid who wasn't Getting along with his dad. And she told me this amazing story. Grand Camp Grace gives the dads these T shirts to wear, and at the end of camp, they give them to their kids so they can take them home and wear something that smells like their dad.

[Earlonne Woods]

Right, Right.

[Nigel Poor]

So that kid that wasn't getting along with his dad, when he got back to where they were staying, they could not find that T shirt. And he was absolutely distraught. He thought that the kids had taken it or hidden it, and he really wanted that damn T shirt. That idea that he couldn't connect with his dad in person, but that he wanted this symbol of his father, this thing that held this kind of intangible scent of him. He wanted that close to him.

[Earlonne Woods]

Right.

[Nigel Poor]

It just told me that every kid has that in them somewhere. And something as transitory as a scent is a starting point for them.

[Earlonne Woods]

I mean, I think a lot of times you technically can't see eye to eye because it's been, what, 10 years since they had seen each other, and, you know, it's complicated. You know, I mean, time, space, and prison really gets in the way of those relationships.

[Nigel Poor]

E. Even though we didn't get to meet them at Salinas, we do have some special guests to read the credits.

[Earlonne Woods]

That's right. Gilbert's children, Gigi. An angel came through for us.

[Amy]

Air Hustle would like to thank all the parents and children who spoke to them for their story. And a big thanks to the Cam grid team, Karen, Jenny, Sandra, Candice, and Maria.

[Gilbert]

Thanks also to Alma, Jen, Adriana, Officer Mul, Officer Guevara, and warden Ashley at.

[Amy]

The Salinas Valley State Premium. This episode of Ear Hustle was produced by Earla Woods, Nigel Poor, Busan, New York Thomas, John, Jaya Johnson, Rasheed Cinnamon, Bruce Wallace, and Tony Tifolla. It was sound, designed and engineered by.

[Gilbert]

Anton Williams with music by Antoine and Rajee Zinniman.

[Amy]

Amy Standing edits the show. Shubnam Sigmund is a digital producer, and Julie Shapiro is the executive producer for Radiotopia.

[Gilbert]

Ear Hustle would also like to thank.

[Amy]

Warden Ron Bloomfield at San Quentin. And as you know, every episode of Ear Hustle has to be approved by this year.

[Earlonne Woods]

This is the last episode of season number eight.

[Andrew]

Man, who would ever thought back in 2017 when we started this journey, man.

[Amy]

That we'd be here?

[Andrew]

It was just amazing how, you know.

[Amy]

This thing has evolved, and there's just so many more stories that are out.

[Andrew]

There that are waiting to be told. And just like this episode here, how.

[Amy]

It took this whole different avenue with.

[Andrew]

Kids and how incarceration impacts them. So with that, Merry Christmas to the Ear Hustle world.

[Amy]

Merry Christmas, Happy New Year, Happy Kwanzaa, Happy Hanukkah, and whatever else you may celebrate. And with that, I will say I am Lieutenant Sam Robinson, the public information officer at San Quentin State Prison, and.

[Andrew]

I do approve this episode as we.

[Amy]

Finish this season, anticipating many more.

[Earlonne Woods]

See, got everybody.

[Amy]

You know what I had on my mind today, man, I just can't blow it, though.

[Gilbert]

What's that?

[Amy]

It's a temptation that. Merry Christmas with that big bass.

[Bruce]

Yeah, Merry Christmas.

[Amy]

I can't get it, man. I'm not there.

[Earlonne Woods]

Hey, you need some eggnog, man? This podcast was made possible with support from the Chan Zuckerberg Initiative, working to redesign the justice system by building power and opportunity for communities impacted by incarceration.

[Nigel Poor]

Ear Hustle is a proud member of Radiotopia from prx. Radiotopia is a collection of independent, listener supported podcasts.

[Earlonne Woods]

Some of the best podcasts around. Hear more at Radiotopia fm.

[Bruce]

Yeah, a lot happened in that second segment too.

[Amy]

Yeah, it really kind of ties up a bunch of, I don't know, ideas that were still kind of left hanging in the first half. And I was sort of satisfied by that. I mean, Gilbert, as tragic as his, you know, as his situation is of his kids not showing up, you know, you do hear him, his celly makes sure he goes to the event, even though he doesn't want to love that part about it. Me too. And I like the sort of physical observations that Nigel and Irlan have of, you know, his knee keeps shaking, his hands keep moving. I mean, again, that sort of the physical kind of desperation of Gilbert, I liked hearing about that again. But yeah, he comes to the event, you hear him at the end, he does his rose and thorns. Rosenthorns is good for something occasionally. Yeah, I like turning leopard.

[Bruce]

It wraps things up.

[Amy]

It wraps things up, yeah. Very handy from a narrative storytelling standpoint. And the guy that has this very old fashioned idea of what fatherhood is and really can't get past it, I found that sort of a satisfying scene with him. I love when Earlonne goes up and tries to kind of intervene. That's a very Earlonne thing to do. You know, it's not Earlonne to tell anyone what to do, but it is very Earlonne to just try and help when he sees a way that he might be helpful. And I think he's doing it there just out of, you know, in a really respectful way. I don't know if it worked like Earlund I don't think earlonne thought it worked, but it's all.

[Bruce]

Yeah, and it's all. I mean, it's like uncomfortable in a way that is both, I think, on the whole, nice, like both that conversation and more broadly sort of talking to that dad and also how we talk about him. Yeah. I couldn't tell if I felt like we totally struck the right tone in.

[Amy]

In that final wrap up or just.

[Bruce]

I think in overall how we describe that or maybe in talking about. Yeah, maybe talking about like the religion and how he's leaning on that. I mean, I guess in the balance we were trying to strike in kind of understanding him, but also kind of critiquing him. Maybe that's not the right word, but.

[Amy]

You know, I think it was more. It was. It's a portrait of a certain understanding of what parenthood is. I mean, for this guy, that's the way he was raised and it's the way he's trying to raise his kid. You know, a parent is somebody who tells the kid what to do and the kid listens and does it, and that's what parenting is. So I don't, I guess I'm sympathetic to him. I think he just, that's just what, that's the parent. That's the parenting that he has seen in his life. And I don't think it's working, but I. Yeah, I think that was. I mean, we said this earlier, like, you just have to show all the, all the things, including the kind of less inspiring, less heartwarming parts. Right. We need to also see these relationships that just aren't working out. Yeah. I wasn't sure. The final wrap up. When we sort of talk about whether or not some kids should have, you know, should be forced to have relationships with their parents. I'm not sure how I feel about that. Of course, it was a question you have. You ask yourself after having this experience. So I think Nigel and Erlan are just being honest about that, but not really sure what the answer is or if we're in any position to answer that, you know.

[Bruce]

Yeah. And I guess also narratively it was helpful to raise that question and then describe that scene that we heard about the kid kind of.

[Amy]

Yeah.

[Bruce]

Holding onto his dad's shirt.

[Amy]

Yeah. Which does say something essential about just wanting a parent. Sort of. Regardless of what kind of person that parent may be. You want a parent. You want, you know, signified by or represented by a smell.

[Bruce]

Yeah.

[Amy]

I mean, it's the most sort of essential non verbal parental presence that you could Have.

[Bruce]

Yeah, yeah. I was thinking it goes by very quickly again. Like the top of that second segment is. Again, it felt a little bit like we're moving between things.

[Nigel Poor]

I know.

[Amy]

I saw you make a face when we went from. Well, when we went. I love actually that gumbo of names that we open that opens the Happy birthday song in the top right after the moon is one of my favorite moments in this episode. I don't know why. I mean, I'm a real sucker for this idea of having to celebrate every single birthday, you know, of the year of the last two years, you know, in this one moment. And so when you hear Happy Birthday to. You know, that just like that says it all to me of how much they're trying to pack into this two day period. But then we immediately jumped this whole other scene around serving me the food and I saw Bruce have this like, where's the transition face.

[Bruce]

But hearing that, I was thinking about. I mean, I'm a real sucker for audio scenes and trying to like sculpt them and also their. And like what they can do. You know, I feel like both of those, like the birthday, exactly the way you're describing it does so much in just whatever few seconds.

[Amy]

Right.

[Bruce]

And then also this idea which I think we could have like lingered on a bit more or maybe we described the scene better. Cause I remember in the moment that meal was very meaningful. And I'm not quite sure it comes across as much.

[Amy]

Right.

[Bruce]

But the fact of everybody sitting down and I mean, it's certainly a forced symbolism of like, okay, now the oppressor, as Arlond calls him, or the staff are serving the incarcerated people. But all that, I mean, it was awkward in the way you would imagine. But it's also kind of remarkable.

[Amy]

I think actually that was hard in making this episode is that we never knew how much of sort of the poignancy of the moment or this intense symbolism or the intense sadness or the intense awkwardness was coming through just in the sound of the scene.

[Bruce]

Yeah, totally.

[Amy]

And how much we had to really kind of then, you know, come in there and say this was really awkward.

[Bruce]

You see why.

[Amy]

And. And it's really hard to make that call and yeah, much harder to do that in as we've been saying, you know, scene based stories than interview based stories where the person is usually articulating the thing. We're talking about sort of non verbal moments. Yeah, it's really hard to know what's. Similarly the sort of. We came back to this question around dropping out of a Gang in the second half. And I still am not quite sure it comes through in this episode. What a big deal that decision is and how big of a sacrifice it was that these guys have made. I don't know. I'd love to know. Email us.

[Bruce]

Did it work?

[Amy]

Did you feel it? Yeah. You think they felt it?

[Bruce]

I think, listeners. I think you felt it.

[Amy]

I hope so.

[Bruce]

Also, back on that dad, I did find myself bristling, which maybe.

[Amy]

Oh, really? What part?

[Bruce]

At him, I think him describing how fatherhood should work.

[Amy]

Yeah.

[Bruce]

I felt bristling on behalf of his kid, you know.

[Amy]

Yeah.

[Nigel Poor]

I don't know.

[Amy]

Do you think that's. You were not a father when you went and were there for that moment. Do you think you see it differently now?

[Bruce]

I don't. I don't know. I don't think so because I still feel that way now. I don't know. Yeah.

[Amy]

Yeah.

[Bruce]

I wish I had some profound thought about that, but I don't. I just remember.

[Amy]

Yeah. I'm not sure you have to be a father to understand what this guy is getting wrong. Did you feel sympathetic to that dad when he talks about how his parents raised him and he. What did he say? I love their dirty socks. You know, which I think means that he just. He didn't criticize. He would never have criticized anything about his parents, even their dirty socks.

[Bruce]

Right, That's. Yeah. That's funny. I didn't actually think that deeply about what that meant. I just thought it meant I really loved him. But you're right. Yeah. Despite all of that, or even the bad stuff I loved about them. No, I was definitely sympathetic to both of them in the time and. Yeah. I mean, I don't know. I feel like with everybody in that room, there's such a mix of motivations, you know, in probably a more complicated way than most kind of family relationships, you know?

[Amy]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, most family relationships, you know, in a family without incarceration, you get to. All this stuff plays out over months and years. Right. But here it's just squeezed into a couple days. There's that moment I mentioned this at the top when Nigel Nerlund overheard this kid saying, you know, being asked, a kid says to another kid, you don't like your dad, do you? Yeah, that breaks my heart, I think, partly, you know, of course, because the kid has to admit that he doesn't like his dad. But just to have another kid see that about you, I mean, that's a really, really hard thing to admit for a kid. Really hard thing to admit. For a kid, because the sort of loyalty or desire to be loyal to your parent, even when they've treated you badly is huge. And so I just felt for that kid.

[Bruce]

But also I feel like there's maybe something nice that. That he did have kids that could ask him that. Like, I feel like those kids who had just gone through this thing and have parents who are also incarcerated, fathers who are also incarcerated, they could ask that in a way that maybe other people couldn't, you know, because it's very. It's not. I kind of remember the scene. It was like very non judgmental. That probably comes across in the tape, you know.

[Amy]

Yeah, it was sort of. Yeah, it did not sound judgmental. It was kind of guileless in a, you know, kid kind of way.

[Bruce]

Yeah. I wonder, I don't know if these kids stay in touch, like if. Yeah, I don't know what happens.

[Amy]

I think they do. I think that's part of the program. They go camping. I think there'sit's a much longer year round kind of thing than just this prison visit. And I know that the people who run this camp are also pretty involved with the kids. You know, getting them in sort of mentorship ways and trying to offer them some sort of continuity around through the year of, you know, helping them sort through their various, you know, issues and stay connected to their parents.

[Bruce]

This would actually be a cool one to do a follow up on because, listen, I really genuinely do want to know where everybody is now. What's happening with all of them. You know, he didn't end up in here. But one nice thing about. I don't know if he was there on the first visit, but there's a CO who's been like Camp Grace's CO at Selinas Valley, who we kind of mention at the end. Oh, I think he gives a thorn, but he's not named. And I'm just remembering like what a. He's sort of like the opposite of your standard picture of CEOs, maybe just what a sort of like big hearted, you know, he just like loved Camp Grace and loved those days and I think has been their CEO the whole time.

[Amy]

Officer.

[Bruce]

Yeah. And he's. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Amy]

Seems like it's usually the women who are sort of doing the emotional labor, these kinds of programs, but. Wow, that's cool. Yeah, that's kind of remarkable. I mean, Salinas seems like a very hard place that prison was tough and did not seem to have a lot of programs. I mean, a real far cry from the sort of San Quentin, with all of its, you know, Yoda classes and everything, that's just.

[Bruce]

I mean, I was feeling a little regret because the warden, as we said, came to that lunch and he was, like, very eager for Ear Hustle to keep coming.

[Amy]

Oh, wow.

[Bruce]

Yeah.

[Amy]

Well, maybe we need to reach back out.

[Bruce]

I. I feel like wardens move around so quickly. I wonder if he's still there, but. Yeah, maybe. One other thing I was thinking of was I think maybe because this was still during the pandemic, Earlonne and Nigel might have been recording from their closets over zoom. Oh, I wonder. I couldn't quite tell because the mic sounded better than average than the zoom mics, but I wonder if part of the narration in the times where it felt like they weren't quite connecting the way they might be, might have been because they weren't actually in the same room. And I remember maybe particularly had a tendency to kind of be a little bit louder.

[Amy]

That's right.

[Bruce]

Over zoom. You feel like. Over zoom, like you have to talk so the person can hear you all the way.

[Amy]

Right. And be more animated.

[Bruce]

But I think. Yeah, I mean, also, we should say it's good listening to this with you and noting. I think a lot of the improvement that the show has experienced since then has been because of you finding.

[Amy]

I mean, I wasn't brand new. I realized that this was December 2021.

[Bruce]

Yeah.

[Amy]

But it's been a year and a half or whatever. Yeah, Well, I mean, I think we're all just still, you know, continuing to learn and get better and.

[Bruce]

Yeah, hopefully.

[Amy]

But this is a hard one, actually. You know, it's not like, I heard this and I thought, oh, I can't believe we didn't, you know, start with this tape and then do this and put all the gang stuff in one spot. And I really didn't hear a lot of fixes. I just heard a lot of, like. That's a little chaotic. Yeah, it wasn't that. Which makes me think this was a hard. This was a harder than usual episode to produce.

[Bruce]

Yeah. And who knows? Each season, like, sometimes end of the season, which this was, you're really running on fumes.

[Amy]

That's true.

[Bruce]

So it could have. That could have been a factor, too.

[Amy]

Yeah.

[Bruce]

Any other last reflections?

[Amy]

I hope. You know, I hope listeners like hearing from kids. You know, I know a lot of Ear Hustle listeners started out from the beginning when it was all, you know, guys in San Quentin joshing around and telling stories and so getting out, being outside of prison, talking to kids, talking to families. Is not sort of traditional ear hustle fare. And sometimes I wonder, you know, how much of that people want to hear. So I'd like to actually, I'd like to hear, I'd like to hear from listeners about that because, because for a show about prisons, we've done remarkably little about parenting from prison. I mean, it's just a huge issue and something that everyone we talk to has some experience of parenthood or thwarted parenthood or their own parent was incarcerated. I mean, it's just the way, I guess what incarceration does to families is such a massive issue. There's so much more to say about it and again, so much nuance and gray areas and so I would love to do more about that.

[Bruce]

Yeah. All right, thanks again.

[Amy]

All right.

[Bruce]

Thank you, Bruce.

[Amy]

This was fun. Thanks for making me listen to this again.

[Bruce]

Yeah, I love revisiting the archives.

[Amy]

Yeah, me too.

[Bruce]

Radiotopia from PRX.