Revisiting "Cracked Windshield"

Summary

Ear Hustle - "Revisiting 'Cracked Windshield'" Summary

Episode Overview In the May 23, 2025 episode of Ear Hustle titled "Revisiting 'Cracked Windshield'," hosts Nigel Poor and Earlonne Woods delve deep into a pivotal episode from their archives, examining its relevance on the five-year anniversary of George Floyd's death. The episode serves as a reflective piece, exploring interactions between Black individuals and law enforcement, the enduring impact of systemic racism, and the quest for restorative justice.

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1. Revisiting "Cracked Windshield"

Context and Significance The episode "Cracked Windshield" originally aired on May 26, 2021, coinciding with the one-year anniversary of George Floyd's murder. As the five-year anniversary approaches, Ear Hustle revisits this episode to assess its continued relevance and the progress made since then.

• Earlonne Woods [04:48]: "We did it for the anniversary of George Floyd's death."
• Nigel Poor [09:02]: "This episode is coming out the day after the one-year anniversary of the death of George Floyd at the hands of a police officer."

Purpose of Revisitation The hosts aim to reflect on the initial reactions to Floyd's death from within the prison system and assess the societal changes—or lack thereof—over the ensuing years.

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2. Ray Ford's Harrowing Police Encounter

Ray Ford's Story Ray Ford recounts his experience being pulled over by police soon after his release from San Quentin State Prison. As a Black man on parole for murder, the encounter was fraught with tension and fear.

• Ray Ford [10:47]: "They sat me down at the bumper for about 45 minutes and asked me questions about the yard, about the board."
• Ray Ford [12:13]: "They were hungry for information. They didn't even really care about me not turning my lights on when I turned the corner."

Outcome of the Stop Contrary to Ford's expectations of a negative outcome, the police were more interested in his experiences incarcerated rather than penalizing him for the traffic violation. He was eventually released without a ticket.

• Ray Ford [13:19]: "They gave me back my information, told me to leave, didn't give me a ticket, didn't give me nothing."

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3. Hosts' First Encounters with Police

Nigel Poor’s Experience Nigel shares a traumatic encounter at 16 when he was arrested by misidentification. He describes the brutality and lack of empathy displayed by the officers.

• Nigel Poor [15:50]: "I was arrested by misidentification and really beat up by the police when I was 16."
• Nigel Poor [16:01]: "They told me they were gonna rape me. They threw me in the back of an unidentified car..."

Earlonne Woods’ Youthful Interactions Earlonne reflects on his early interactions with police, transitioning from being viewed as junior officers to experiencing intimidation and fear.

• Earlonne Woods [15:32]: "When I hit a specific age, I was being put on that car regularly."
• Earlonne Woods [17:18]: "I got arrested for lifting up one of those train crossing signals."

Producer John Yaya Johnson’s Story John recounts a frightening interaction at age nine, sensing ulterior motives from a beat cop, which preluded his distrust in law enforcement.

• John Yaya Johnson [14:13]: "He had some pins in his pocket. He said, 'you like these pens?'... I ran."
• John Yaya Johnson [15:32]: "I was nine. And from that point on, I didn't trust that beat cop."

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4. Police Forum at San Quentin

Purpose and Impact A significant part of the episode covers a police forum held at San Quentin on the 10th anniversary of Oscar Grant's death. This event aimed to bridge gaps between law enforcement and the incarcerated community.

• Troy Taleb Young [20:03]: "She got up and she spoke at this forum."
• Troy Taleb Young [22:07]: "She spoke at this forum... apologized for all the harm that officers had done."

Chief of Police Ann Kilpatrick's Apology Former Oakland Police Chief Ann Kilpatrick made a groundbreaking apology for police misconduct, marking a rare moment of accountability within law enforcement.

• Nigel Poor [21:07]: "I'm gonna do something that you probably have very seldom ever seen. But Jack, Jack Bryson..."
• Troy Taleb Young [22:28]: "She spoke at this forum and apologized for all the harm that officers had done."

Troy Taleb Young’s Transformation Troy shares how the chief's apology transformed his perception of the police, shifting his desire to bridge the divide rather than harbor resentment.

• Troy Taleb Young [22:28]: "I got up and I told her, I said, look, I ain't never liked the police, but what you just said changed the way I perceive officers."
• Troy Taleb Young [25:40]: "I offered to be assistance in each community to help deal with the problem of the gang issues that they have."

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5. Conversations with Former Officer Tom

Tom’s Journey and Realizations Tom, a former police officer now working in investigating misconduct, discusses the emotional toll of policing and the erosion of empathy due to routine violence.

• Tom [44:23]: "Any video, you know, of police violence... violence became, you know, routine and unremarkable."
• Tom [47:18]: "And this is Tom... For many years, Tom was a cop in Bakersfield..."

Impact of Derek Chauvin’s Actions Tom reflects on the ramifications of Derek Chauvin's actions and how systemic issues within policing contribute to ongoing violence and mistrust.

• Tom [54:04]: "I think the wrong person was sitting in the defendant's chair. He is a product of what conventional society believes to be appropriate policing."
• Tom [55:00]: "It's about seeing the value of human beings... human beings have value no matter what they did or where they at."

Restorative Justice and Accountability The discussion emphasizes the necessity for restorative justice and meaningful accountability within the policing system to foster genuine change.

• Tom [59:51]: "You should call for the graduation. This did make me wonder..."
• Tom [60:08]: "I don't believe in long sentences for anyone, including him."

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6. Hosts and Team Reflections

Nigel and Earlonne’s Perspectives Both hosts reflect on their personal experiences and the broader societal implications of police interactions, emphasizing the lack of empathy and the cyclical nature of violence.

• Nigel Poor [30:36]: "I think it's gonna be some type of resolve from this..."
• Earlonne Woods [56:52]: "I think it's gonna be a dramatic change..."

Bruce Wallace’s Insights Bruce highlights the importance of empathy in policing and the challenges of changing deeply ingrained systemic behaviors.

• Bruce Wallace [27:06]: "Taking the time to even have the conversation means that our opinion matters in some kind of way."
• Bruce Wallace [30:39]: "I think it’s hard to be a cop and be empathetic after a while."

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7. Ongoing Challenges and Future Directions

Defunding vs. Reforming the Police The team discusses the complex dynamics between defunding the police and implementing reforms, recognizing the need for sustainable, long-term solutions over quick fixes.

• Bruce Wallace [67:06]: "It's just a desperation for an instant answer."
• Bruce Wallace [67:24]: "It felt like things went back the other way. Their budgets increased."

Community Safety and Perceptions Discussions delve into the disparities in crime rates versus public perception, influenced heavily by media portrayal and societal biases.

• Rahsaan New York [69:03]: "And also the types of crime, it's sort of like there's a sentiment..."
• Bruce Wallace [70:18]: "But your first impression... is like, yo, look at all these houseless people. I'm in danger."

Restorative Justice Initiatives The hosts advocate for restorative justice circles and community-based interventions to address the root causes of criminal behavior and rebuild trust.

• Earlonne Woods [60:27]: "I think there should be a cap on sentences."
• Tom [61:00]: "It took meeting a mother whose son was gunned down... to really make me see what I did."

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8. Impact of George Floyd’s Death and Moving Forward

Evolving Public Awareness Reflecting on five years since George Floyd's death, the hosts acknowledge both the progress made and the persistent challenges in achieving systemic change.

• Bailey and Tom [79:01]: "Amazing difference."
• Earlonne Woods [79:52]: "And now let me just ask, man, do you approve everything you just said?"

Lasting Legacy The episode concludes with a heartfelt acknowledgment of George Floyd's enduring impact on the movement for justice and equality.

• Bruce Wallace [79:52]: "And you have to realize that there's still some undercurrents from that movement..."
• Nigel Poor [79:46]: "I just want to say my condolences to his family. And I hope you realize that we might not have gotten all the change that we wanted, but he definitely made a difference."

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9. Listeners' Engagement and Future Content

Encouraging Community Involvement The hosts invite listeners to engage with their content, share their thoughts, and support the ongoing conversations about prison life, policing, and rehabilitation.

• Earlonne Woods [81:14]: "Please contribute. Thank you."

Upcoming Topics Future episodes will continue to explore complex social issues, aiming to provide a platform for diverse voices and foster understanding across different communities.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Ray Ford [09:02]: "And they say, I don't want to be a martyr right now. I'm trying to live this life right now."
• Troy Taleb Young [22:28]: "She got up and she spoke at this forum... apologized for all the harm that officers had done."
• Tom [44:42]: "Any video, you know, of police violence... violence became, you know, routine and unremarkable."
• Bruce Wallace [27:06]: "Taking the time to even have the conversation means that our opinion matters in some kind of way."
• Nigel Poor [79:26]: "And I just want to say my condolences to his family. And I hope you realize that we might not have gotten all the change that we wanted, but he definitely made a difference."

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Conclusion "Revisiting 'Cracked Windshield'" serves as a poignant reminder of the ongoing struggles between law enforcement and marginalized communities. Through personal anecdotes, reflective discussions, and critical analysis, Ear Hustle continues to shed light on the human experiences within and outside prison walls, advocating for empathy, understanding, and systemic change.

Transcript

[Earlonne Woods]

Earlonne and Nigel here, thank you so much to everyone who has already donated to our fundraiser.

[Nigel Poor]

Yes, we really appreciate it and we love reading the comments from donors. And I hope people know how meaningful it is for us when we get letters and comments from listeners. In fact, once a month, the whole team sits down and we read all the letters that we've gotten and sometimes we even write back.

[Earlonne Woods]

Yep.

[Nigel Poor]

And you know this, Earlonne, we've been getting more and more mail from prisons.

[Earlonne Woods]

Yep. Because Ear Hustle is now on tablets and we're in in 1200 different jails and prisons. So, I mean, just yesterday we were reading a letter sent by a guy who was in the shoe, which is solitary confinement, and he was looking for stuff that he can listen to for free on his tablet and he stumbled across Ear Hustle and binged the whole.

[Nigel Poor]

Catalog, the whole like 15 seasons. It is amazing. And honestly, none of this work would be possible without support from listeners on the outside.

[Earlonne Woods]

This year, everyone who donates will be involved, invited to our virtual party on June 11th. And if you can become a monthly donor at $10 or more, we'll give you access to Ear Hustle plus, which includes ad free episodes and bonus content.

[Nigel Poor]

Every single gift helps us reach our goal of 1,000 donors.

[Earlonne Woods]

And we mean every gift, no matter the amount. Renee Albee, a dedicated listener in Austin, Texas, has a challenge for our listeners. On a tight budget, she's doubling small gifts to Ear hustle. Head to earhustlesq.com to learn more about her challenge and donate.

[Nigel Poor]

That's earhustlesq.com donate and Renee, we cannot wait to see you in Austin when we're on our live tour.

[Rahsaan New York]

Yep.

[Earlonne Woods]

Big thanks from all of us to all of you.

[Rahsaan New York]

Rahsaan, New York. Thomas.

[Bruce Wallace]

Bruce Wallace. How are you, sir?

[Rahsaan New York]

As I live and breathe. I always wanted to start saying that. How did it sound as I live and breathe?

[Bruce Wallace]

It sounds like you're living and breathing.

[Rahsaan New York]

Okay, check on both of those. Welcome to your first go at the Ear Hustle sleeper hits. Yes, let's call it that.

[Bruce Wallace]

I'm a little nervous, Bruce.

[Rahsaan New York]

You should be. This is the high stakes, high responsibility. It's like med school boards or something like that.

[Bruce Wallace]

What if this episode comes out and people still sleep on it?

[Rahsaan New York]

Well, that's what we're trying to correct. Just a quick refresher if people haven't been following along. We are now close to 120 episodes into Ear Hustle. We've been making it since 2017. You've been involved almost since the beginning. You're certainly adjacent since the beginning. You were over at San Quentin News when it started.

[Bruce Wallace]

Yep.

[Rahsaan New York]

And so we've made a lot of episodes. It's been a number of years. And there are some episodes that we tend to forget about as a team. There's, like, a handful that we talk about all the time. And we wanted to think back to, like, the ones we liked the most or the best episodes, ones we'd recommend people starting with. But then in the archives, there are also these episodes that we kind of just forget about when you make, you know, 20 or so a year. So we're revisiting some of those. Each member of the staff is looking through the archives and thinking about ones that they wish had gotten more attention.

[Bruce Wallace]

And for me, this one right here is one I even slept on. Because it was made during COVID And at that time, the Azo staff was locked out the prison.

[Rahsaan New York]

Yep.

[Bruce Wallace]

And so normally I'm heavily involved in the editing. I hear the final product. But in this case, it was produced on the streets. And the final product didn't get to me for, like, I think, a year and change later.

[Rahsaan New York]

Right. Because that was one of the many things that was sort of on hold, was the process by which we got episodes back into the institution. Which was a strange thing for a while that you would hear them out on the streets. A lot faster you'd hear them than you'd hear them in San Quentin, where most of them originated.

[Bruce Wallace]

And by the time they came in, they came in in a batch instead of one episode at a time. And so in that sea of episodes, I felt like I didn't really pay attention to this one that much.

[Rahsaan New York]

Yeah. And I wonder why. It sort of has been that. It's been a sleeper on the outside as well. Maybe because it was kind of a departure. And what it was. Well, we'll hear more about it, but we did it for the anniversary of George Floyd's death. And I think the general concept we'll hear soon was just. I mean, we talked to a police officer and some formerly incarcerated people about their first encounters with the law or their, you know, their roles as the law. I can't actually remember more what we asked there, but it was very timely. But it was different than what we normally do. We normally. We very rarely do. Like, current events.

[Bruce Wallace]

Yeah. And also I felt like it was one of those episodes that we were doing from the outside. And I think, like, I think my part was. I called in. Oh, it's different. A totally different process. Totally different way of making it. But it's an episode that for like one of the few times was not made in San Quentin.

[Rahsaan New York]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Bruce Wallace]

And a guy interviewed in December is in it. And so this is like the third episode he's in. I wonder if he's like on his. Is that a record or something?

[Rahsaan New York]

Oh, yeah. I don't know who's been on the most, but three is good. And who is this guy? So we can listen for him when he comes in?

[Bruce Wallace]

Troy Taleb Young. Yeah, he's in this one.

[Rahsaan New York]

He's in. Well. Oh, he would have been out by then.

[Bruce Wallace]

He's. He was out by then. Yeah. But he's also in Tired of running, season five, episode 43, and he was in episode 44. Nobody comes back. And so now he's in this episode, which is Crack Windshield.

[Rahsaan New York]

And I think he's sort of like a sleeper guest. We forget how much he's been on the show.

[Bruce Wallace]

I didn't realize he was in so many episodes.

[Rahsaan New York]

Keep going. That's right. Cracked Windshield it is. Episode 59, originally dropped in Season 7, May 26, 2021. And one of the reasons, of course, that we're revisiting this episode now, not only have you chosen it as your sleeper hit, but the anniversary of George Floyd's death is come up May 25th. So this is going to be five years since his murder and. Yeah. So it's a. A timely episode to revisit.

[Bruce Wallace]

Yes. And I say not murdered. Martyred. Martyred, yeah. Because his death at least brought a little bit of change and a lot of attention to a huge problem.

[Rahsaan New York]

Yeah, those. Yeah. It must have been so interesting to experience that all from inside. That was such a kind of watershed moment out here. I remember it, you know, it felt.

[Bruce Wallace]

Oh yeah. I think we're gonna deal with that in the second half of the episode. So let's. Let's listen in and see that.

[Rahsaan New York]

Okay. And so we'll listen to the first half, then at the mid roll break, you and I will hop back in and share some thoughts and then we'll listen to the second half and then hop back in and wrap it up.

[Bruce Wallace]

Sounds good. Let's go.

[Nigel Poor]

Hi, this is Sahara Khoury. I'm an Oakland based artist and I'm an Ear Hustle listener. The following episode of Ear Hustle contains language and content that may not be suitable for all listeners. Discretion is advised.

[Ray Ford]

One evening I was going to Walmart. I left about 8:30. It was dark, came out, got in my car, forgot to turn my lights on going down the streets, got pulled over by the police. Back in the day, I might have even ran from or whatever. Now I didn't panic. I knew that I had my license, my registration, insurance. I hadn't committed no crimes. I was 100% legit. I knew I was good. This day and age, especially an older black man, you know no better than to do anything stupid. You keep your hands on your steering wheel, no quick moves, no funny moves. Just be real respectful. Yes, sir, no, sir. You don't want to be doing nothing stupid. If you look around, you can look at society today and you see that they're killing us for no reason, just because they can. They put their knee on your neck for 10 minutes and with their hands in their pocket just chilling on your neck with people telling you you're killing him. You can't breathe. You can't just hear. Can't you hear him? Man's crying for his mama. Can't breathe. What can you do? Two other dudes sitting on his back. So I don't want to be that guy.

[Earlonne Woods]

And they say, I don't want to be a martyr right now. I'm trying to live this life right now.

[Ray Ford]

Too much time in prison to come out here and get killed by the police. All the battles we done fought in there behind them walls and then come out here and get killed like that, this is a waste of life. So we got to be smart about it.

[Nigel Poor]

This episode is coming out the day after the one year anniversary of the death of George Floyd at the hands of a police officer.

[Earlonne Woods]

I remember coming across that video just scrolling through social media. And the crazy thing is I didn't realize that he had died to the next day.

[Nigel Poor]

God. You know, that idea of like scrolling through social media and having videos like this pop up just. It's so complicated.

[Earlonne Woods]

And it's just the trip because I've seen so much of that shit, you know what I'm saying? Like, I don't, I don't like watching videos of cops abusing, you know, black people. But once I had realized that he died, it kind of fucked me up, but I definitely wasn't going to go back and watch it.

[Nigel Poor]

Ugh, Earlonne, I feel you on that. Well, for the anniversary of Floyd's death, we wanted to do something a little bit different on the show today we're.

[Earlonne Woods]

Talking about cops the first time we interacted with them and whether those relationships can change.

[Nigel Poor]

I'm Nigel Poor.

[Earlonne Woods]

And I'm Earlonne woods. And this is ear hustle from PRX's. Radiotopia.

[Nigel Poor]

At the top of the show, we were hearing from Ray Ford. He had been out of prison for just over a year when he got pulled over for not having his lights on.

[Ray Ford]

So they pulled me over. Police come to my car. License, registrations, insurance. I gave it to him. He went back to his squad car and ran. My name came back to the car. He says, Mr. Ford, are you on parole? I said, yeah. He said, for what? I said, murder. He said, get out the car. Get out the car. Hands on your head. Hands on your head. Hands behind your back.

[Earlonne Woods]

Getting pulled over as a black man is one thing, but getting pulled over as a black man on parole, oh, that's a whole nother situation.

[Nigel Poor]

Oh, yeah. I mean, if you are on parole, the rules are really different. Police have the right to search you and your property anytime.

[Earlonne Woods]

And if you, let's say, say something wrong, do something wrong, they see something wrong, you can go back to jail.

[Nigel Poor]

So Ray knew this could go badly. But what happened next really surprised him.

[Ray Ford]

They sat me down at the bumper for about 45 minutes and asked me questions about the yard, about the board. What prison were you in? What are you doing? How did you get out?

[Bruce Wallace]

Why are you out?

[Ray Ford]

They were hungry for information. They didn't even really care about me not turning my lights on when I turned the corner. They were more interested in how prison, how the board worked, how, how the yards worked, how the blacks got along with the Hispanics and how the Hispanics got along with the whites. They was intrigued. They was really intrigued with a man serving that much time in prison and coming home and driving down the street, minding his own business without his lights on. Yeah, well, he said, you're the first person that I pulled over that's ever been on, out on parole for murder. I said, well, you just keep pulling people over and you're going to find more of us because they letting us out. We're doing our time, they're coming home and we're doing good things in the community. And once it was all over, they gave me back my information, told me to leave, didn't give me a ticket, didn't give me nothing.

[Nigel Poor]

Both Earlonne and Yaya, what was your first encounter with a police officer?

[Earlonne Woods]

Well, shit, as a. As a. I mean, if you say first encounter, you speaking as a kid, when you looked up to em, you know, when, you know they were police and you probably wanted to be a police or a fireman, you know, I was in sports and especially as a juvenile, a young, young dude you know, our sponsors were the LA sheriffs, and there were certain detectives that used to, you know, be in our life a lot.

[John Yaya Johnson]

I remember we had beat cops, and they would walk around the block and they would stop and talk to members of the community and everything.

[Nigel Poor]

That's our producer, John Yaya Johnson.

[John Yaya Johnson]

They would even give us, like, little plastic badges. And so we would run around like we were junior police and stuff. And then slowly, that changed.

[Earlonne Woods]

Once I hit a specific age, I was being put on that car regularly. I would say 11, you know what I'm saying? Like, regularly. Just put. You know, the police would see us hanging out and just put us on the car and just search us and all that. And we just kids, you know.

[John Yaya Johnson]

I remember being, like 9 years old, and our beat cop changed. His energy was different. He walked different. And one day when I was walking to the store, he asked me to come here. And he pointed to his pocket and he had some pins in his pocket. He said, you like these pens? And I was like, you know, kind of confused why he would ask me why I like pens. Right. He said, man, you can have one of them, any one of them you want. You can just grab it. And I didn't know anything, you know, at 9 years old about what was going on. He said, come on, man, come over here and get one of these pens. There was something about his energy that I didn't like, and I ran. And it was years later that I was watching TV or something, and I saw an officer tell someone to reach for something. And when he reached for it, he pulled out his nightstick and bust his head open. So I don't know if that's what he was intending to do with me, but I got negative vibes when he asked me to reach for something that didn't belong to me.

[Nigel Poor]

How old were you?

[John Yaya Johnson]

I was nine. And from that point on, I didn't trust that beat cop.

[Earlonne Woods]

Nyjah, did you get pulled over by the police between the age of 5 and 18?

[Nigel Poor]

Actually, I never told you guys that. I was arrested by misidentification and really beat up by the police when I was 16. Yeah.

[Earlonne Woods]

How did you feel?

[Nigel Poor]

It was horrible. They told me they were gonna rape me. They threw me in the back of an unidentified car, drove me around Boston, wouldn't let me make a phone call. It was horrible. Yeah. That changed how I felt about the police. Yeah. And that made me think, like, wow, they had no empathy. They just wanted to really scare somebody.

[Earlonne Woods]

That's a trip that you'd have to go through that. I mean, and you would think the people that's there to serve and protect didn't.

[Nigel Poor]

Yeah, they wanted to intimidate and scare a kid. Well, I mean, 16. I don't know if that's a kid.

[Earlonne Woods]

That's a kid. And did that change your perspective?

[Nigel Poor]

Well, it definitely changed my perspective on people and people's lack of empathy because, you know, like when the cops were dragging me down the street and I was screaming for help, people were just, you know, cheering them on. And I mean, it was a long time ago, but I remember there was this one guy who tried to help out and do something, but everyone else was like rooting for the cops, you know, not for me.

[Earlonne Woods]

It was like you were the bad guy, you know, I remember the first time I had that feeling.

[Nigel Poor]

Oh, yeah, when was that?

[Earlonne Woods]

It was when I was nine. And I know I've told this story on the show before, but I got arrested for lifting up one of those train crossing signals.

[Nigel Poor]

I hate the story.

[Earlonne Woods]

And the crazy part is I was trying to help, you know what I'm saying? Because it was stuck and cars was trying to get by. But the cops picked me up and put me in the back of their car and all I can remember was crying.

[Nigel Poor]

You know, this is what I keep coming back to. It's this lack of empathy and it's really scary.

[Earlonne Woods]

And for me, you know, like I said, that's when things really changed with the cops. You know, there was no trust anymore. And I think that's the case for a lot of people who grew up in communities like the one I grew up in.

[Troy Taleb Young]

So growing up in Los Angeles dealing with law enforcement, we was treated less than. We weren't treated as citizens. We was treated as. We had no rights, no respect.

[Earlonne Woods]

I knew Troy Talib Young when I was at San Quentin, and he's been on the show before too.

[Nigel Poor]

Troy was released from prison in February 2020. And he grew up in South Central LA, just like you did, E, right?

[Earlonne Woods]

Yep, that's right.

[Troy Taleb Young]

One of the things that put a distaste in my mom's for law enforcement. I was about 7 years old. My mother and father was having an argument outside the car police put up. They asked my mother if she wanted him to go to jail. She said no. The officer offered my mother the billy club and told her to beat my father. Seven year old kid. I'm witnessing all this. Of course, Miles didn't do it. So they handcuffed pops, rough him up, throw him in the back of the car, take him to jail. He sit up in LA County Jail for 30 days. Both my parents had jobs. Honest people, taxpayers, they never commit crimes in their lives, but still. And yet they was treated like criminals. How am I as a child to have respect for someone who doesn't show respect? As I became older, a youngster, a teenager, my dealings with law enforcement was never pleasant. Being pulled over, being put on the ground, been beat by billy clubs. They make you interlace your fingers, cross your legs, beat your elbows. So there was no love. I've never seen, growing up in Los Angeles, a LA police officer do anything productive or positive in my community. I'm not saying it wasn't done, I just. I never saw it. 2019, I was in San Quentin. There was a police forum.

[Bruce Wallace]

But no, I appreciate you guys. This is gonna be a great forum. How's everyone doing? So today we're gonna do a little bit different because I have Tony, my photographer.

[Nigel Poor]

You were out by then, so you and I didn't go to that event together. But I remember hearing about the barbershop forum, right?

[Earlonne Woods]

This one took place on the 10th anniversary of when BART transit police in Oakland killed Oscar Grant while he was lying face down on a train platform. And that killing really mobilized people in the community against police violence.

[Nigel Poor]

And so the purpose of the event at San Quentin was to try and bridge the gap between the police and the community.

[Earlonne Woods]

Right.

[Nigel Poor]

And one thing for sure, at San Quentin, you know that they host a lot of these events where they bring people together who are on opposite sides of something and try to conduct a civil conversation about super difficult topics.

[Earlonne Woods]

Indeed, the flagship of rehabilitation.

[Troy Taleb Young]

What touched my heart was the chief of police at that time. I think it was Kilpatrick.

[Earlonne Woods]

Talib is talking about former Oakland Police Chief Ann Kirkpatrick.

[Nigel Poor]

Well, first of all, it's my great honor to be here and to say hello to each and every single one of you.

[Troy Taleb Young]

She got up and she spoke at this forum.

[Nigel Poor]

And I'm gonna do something that you probably have very seldom ever seen. But Jack, Jack is Jack Bryson. He was at the event at San Quentin that day. And Jack's two sons were close to Oscar Grant and they were actually with him on the night he died.

[Earlonne Woods]

And that was hella fucked up for them to witness that. So after the killing, Jack became like a full time activist talking about police violence.

[Nigel Poor]

I want you to know, on behalf of police, I am sorry and I ask for your forgiveness. So we need to stand up and say we are sorry and we have a future and a hope together.

[Troy Taleb Young]

I was sitting in the audience, and she had apologized for all the harm that officers had done. I've never heard that. I've never heard anyone in law enforcement apologize for anything. So that touched my heart.

[Nigel Poor]

You are coming home. When you come home, you will have a police department. And as long as I am your chief, I will be your chief. And you will be addressed with respect by your name. You will be given opportunity for restoration, and you will be welcomed home.

[Troy Taleb Young]

That took away some of the sting that I was holding for you years. I just viewed everyone who wore that uniform up until that time as being, fuck you, you asshole. But that changed that day. When this, the chief of the police made that statement, you know, that was a change for me. And I got up and I spoke.

[Bruce Wallace]

Sarah Saints, spell your first and last name for me.

[Troy Taleb Young]

Troy Charlie of Young. Why are you injured?

[Bruce Wallace]

Talk to me. What did you want to discuss? The chief did. It impacted me, actually.

[Troy Taleb Young]

She just changed my life.

[Sahara Khoury]

I can stop change my people.

[Troy Taleb Young]

And I told her, I said, look, I ain't never liked the police, but what you just said changed the way I perceive officers. I need to know from y' all, how can I help get you to change?

[Rahsaan New York]

Troy, thank you so much.

[Nigel Poor]

I know it's a little hard to hear, but what Taleb did there right before the moderator thanked him was really surprising. I mean, Earlonne, especially taking into consideration the way he grew up and his.

[Earlonne Woods]

Feelings about the police and being in prison.

[Nigel Poor]

Yeah.

[Earlonne Woods]

You know, and what Talib said was when he got out, he wanted to work within the system to bridge the gap between cops and. And people in the community.

[Nigel Poor]

And when he was released from San Quentin, he reached out to the chief of police in the Bay Area to make that offer. Again.

[Troy Taleb Young]

I offered to be assistance in each community to help deal with the problem of the gang issues that they have. I explained that I'm aware of that culture, I have knowledge of that culture, and I can be some assistance. And I put myself out there to work with them. I did the same thing at this, the one we're talking about for Oakland. I offered to be willing to work to help build these bridges, to help create some love, some respect. I've yet to been called on. I've yet to hear it from anyone.

[Earlonne Woods]

So basically, you're saying that you have the lived experience to help build a better and safer community.

[Troy Taleb Young]

Yes.

[Earlonne Woods]

And you're just not being utilized.

[Troy Taleb Young]

And there's many of men of color who's not been utilized to help do this.

[Nigel Poor]

When we come back, we'll talk to a police officer, a friend of the shows, about what he saw in George Floyd's murder.

[Rahsaan New York]

All right. That was the first segment of Cracked Windshield from May of 2021. First thoughts for Kind of things that stuck out to you surprise you?

[Bruce Wallace]

I think the most surprising thing, there's a lot of surprises that Nigel went through. Abuse at the hands of police.

[Rahsaan New York]

I remember. Yeah. Yeah. I remember hearing that in the interview. That's the first time I'd ever heard that.

[Bruce Wallace]

Yeah. So that's deep. Yeah, just deep. And then Kirkpatrick, the police captain, apologizing for Oscar Grant and for police misconduct. That was a surprise.

[Rahsaan New York]

Do you remember that forum? Were you there?

[Bruce Wallace]

I think I was at that forum. I was at that forum.

[Rahsaan New York]

That seems to be, at least today, it's become a kind of regular thing. I often hear about DAs, particularly the San Francisco DA, going in to talk to groups of folks in there. Was it back then?

[Bruce Wallace]

Yeah. I remember being in Chapel B. I remember a bunch of people coming in from Oakland. I remember that. I remember that. It was big. It was big.

[Rahsaan New York]

What kind of was Talib's experience? Typical. You think, or what do you think? Most guys, incarcerated, guys who go to an event like that, what would they get out of it?

[Bruce Wallace]

Everybody that showed up seemed impacted.

[Rahsaan New York]

Yeah.

[Bruce Wallace]

Because like, taking the time to even have the conversation means that our opinion matters in some kind of way. And that's just big. That's how it starts the journey. But also wonder, like, sometimes it feels like they're trying to save policing.

[Rahsaan New York]

Save policing?

[Bruce Wallace]

Yeah.

[Rahsaan New York]

What do you mean?

[Bruce Wallace]

We know that calling somebody after you've been harmed doesn't keep you safe.

[Rahsaan New York]

Right.

[Bruce Wallace]

And we might feel better about using the system for revenge, but the phenomenons that inspire people or trap people with such little options that crime seems like a good idea are still in place. And so they need to save face. Right. They need a PR move. But I also know.

[Rahsaan New York]

So you think like a cynical maybe way of looking at it is these events are more for an audience outside than for the folks in the room.

[Bruce Wallace]

It's definitely important to our audience outside as well. But I think there are some people who mean well and work within that force. And we have conundrums. We have. We let things get so bad and we have to do something and we need a fast answer and we don't have anything else in place. And so it's a conundrum. What do you do? Like, you can't let a serial killer run around the neighborhood. You have to call the cops. Right. But then at the same time you have to keep calling cops because crime still exists.

[Earlonne Woods]

Yeah.

[Rahsaan New York]

I do wonder kind of what the. What the mindset is or what the. What the mission is with for the DA for cops going in for events like this. Is some of it to sort of understand better the experiences and the sort of mindset of folks that they've been involved and played a part in locking up.

[Bruce Wallace]

I think people do want to, like, at least try to bridge the gaps.

[Sahara Khoury]

Right.

[Bruce Wallace]

To try to make something, make policing work. And so I think there's a sincere effort to do that. But, like, even when Derek got convicted, Derek Chauvin for murdering George Floyd, and a lot of police did what they normally don't do, they were testifying against him. They were like, condemning the action. They're like, yo, that's too far. Like, you messed up.

[Rahsaan New York]

Yeah.

[Bruce Wallace]

But when they did that, I felt like they were just trying to save policing.

[Rahsaan New York]

I see.

[Bruce Wallace]

Yeah. Because at that moment, it's not about.

[Rahsaan New York]

Necessarily reforming it, sort of.

[Bruce Wallace]

Well, reforming is a way to save it too, though. So reforms are important and they make things a little bit better. But, like, it's still a flawed logic that we solve everything with violence. Yeah, it's still a flawed logic and it weighs on the psyche of a cop. He ends up becoming an enforcer when he might have went there to do some good in the hood.

[Rahsaan New York]

That Nigel zeroing in on the lack of empathy displayed in a lot of those stories in her story, but also Earlonne's story, that felt pretty. I don't know if illuminating is right, but, like, you know that just that sort of lack is so fundamental. Lack of empathy is so fundamental in all these relationships.

[Bruce Wallace]

I think it's hard to be a cop and be empathetic after a while.

[Rahsaan New York]

Yeah. Even if you go in with a whole bunch of empathy, if you do. Yeah, you lose it.

[Bruce Wallace]

I mean, you just get so jaded because nobody invites you to the graduation. You don't call 911. Look at this black person graduating from school. Come on down. This emergency. Come check this out. You know, you get called to see the worst actions by human beings ever.

[Rahsaan New York]

They should call for the graduation.

[Bruce Wallace]

We should call next time. I'm graduating. Somebody graduates, I'm going to call 91 1-EMERGENCY.

[Rahsaan New York]

Good. Emergency. This did make me wonder. Listening to folks talk about their first interactions with cops made me wonder what yours was. If you remember your first interaction with police in Brooklyn.

[Bruce Wallace]

I can't remember my first, but I remember the feeling like cops had never did anything to me. But I Remember feeling tensing up when I saw him and feeling like, what are you over here for? Because in Brownsville, it felt like the projects are weird. They face inward. They have their back to the world. And so the cops mostly patrol the streets. They don't come in the projects.

[Rahsaan New York]

Oh.

[Bruce Wallace]

And when they do come into projects, it's to take somebody away that you love. Right.

[Rahsaan New York]

They're not, like, walking the beat and walking through you.

[Bruce Wallace]

I mean, now they have housing cops in certain projects. Certain projects got so bad, they have housing cops. Housing stations. I think there's one in Tilden. Like, there's a housing substation, Right. Tilden is a project in Brownsville.

[Rahsaan New York]

Yeah.

[Bruce Wallace]

But for the most part, you hardly ever saw cops walk through the PJs.

[Rahsaan New York]

Unless they were going.

[Bruce Wallace]

Unless they were coming to take somebody away that you love. And so I just always. And then the feeling, like, there's a feeling that you catch the vibe, like, nobody in my neighborhood seemed to like the cops, because when they come around, it's like. It's just the tension in the air. It's that feeling that, like, there's getting ready to be a riot on the yard. It was never friendly, but my one. One of the bad experience I had, it wasn't. I don't. It wasn't my first experience for sure, but I got pulled over, and this wasn't no regular, like, traffic stop. They were looking for somebody who did something serious, I guess.

[Rahsaan New York]

How old were you?

[Bruce Wallace]

I was, like, 17 or 18. And the way they pulled us over was dramatic. Like, cut the car off and get off the car, get on the ground, guns pointed. And we, like, don't know what the hell this is about. We don't have no clue. But it was hella aggressive and scary. And they searched the car, and a call came over the radio, and they figured out it wasn't us, and they.

[Rahsaan New York]

Let us go and had it. Do you remember what they said when they found out it wasn't you?

[Bruce Wallace]

I do know that I was relieved and happy that they let us go, but nobody apologized.

[Rahsaan New York]

That's what I was wondering. Did they? Yeah, they don't acknowledge that.

[Bruce Wallace]

They just said, oh, man. Oh, it's not you guys. Okay, you can go. Like, come on, dude. You need to explain this to me. Like, why did you think it was me? You just put me on the ground in my polo, right? Like, you just took us out the car. You pointed guns at us. You treated us really bad. Right? And you are not explaining it. And so I need to know why you mistook us. I need an apology. And if it's an honest mistake, I can respect that. Cause you're trying to, you know, protect somebody from something, you know, trying to do something good, I guess.

[Rahsaan New York]

Yeah.

[Bruce Wallace]

But no explanation. Like, you don't even feel like you owe me an apology or an explanation.

[Rahsaan New York]

Yeah.

[Bruce Wallace]

The best we got was the relief of, you can go now, you know, so that wasn't a good experience. And just in general, I never felt like the kind of police abuse that people talk about, like getting beat up by the police. I never got beat up by the police, but I felt like they didn't care. I felt like anybody can kill me, cop or robber, and nothing would happen. The police wouldn't look for the killer. And I've had the experience of my brother being shot and the guy who did it living in the same neighborhood. And he never left the neighborhood. He was on the corner, and it felt like there was no conscious effort to arrest him. And I remember when they were doing this thing where they was trying to finally crack down on crime in New York, but it wasn't like doing surveillance or that stuff you see on tv. It wasn't chasing anybody. It wasn't no bounty hunters. If you jump the turnstile, they run your name for a warrant and then find out you had warrants. So you had to jump the turnstile. If you didn't jump the turnstile, you could be on the run forever in New York because they weren't looking for you. Unfortunately, I noticed for a fact. Cause I was on a run in New York, and these cops weren't very good. Like, you can catch me picking up my son. I was wandering around New York, driving.

[Rahsaan New York]

Living your life in the open.

[Bruce Wallace]

You know what made me leave New York for California? The Daily News would not let it go. They kept putting my face in the most wanted section. Like, trying to force the cops to do something.

[Rahsaan New York]

But other than that, they were just not going to. So that's how you ended up in California?

[Bruce Wallace]

That's how I end up in California. Other than that. They knock on your door, maybe the detectives might stop by every six months to see if you're home. If you're not home, they go with their lives and you go with your. You're being on a run. It's the saddest thing ever, Bruce.

[Rahsaan New York]

Wow.

[Bruce Wallace]

It's the saddest thing ever.

[Rahsaan New York]

It's a lot less dramatic than they make it sound.

[Bruce Wallace]

Oh, it's none of that new Law and Order stuff.

[Rahsaan New York]

Yeah. And then I was wondering, listening to Ray Ford's story, which I'd totally forgotten. I'd forgotten he was at the top of this show talking about getting pulled over after he'd been out. That made me wonder, what's your. Now that you're out and free, man, out in the world, what's your feeling when a cop car pulls past?

[Bruce Wallace]

Well, first of all, it's a weird thing. I feel two ways. One, I'm not free yet. I'm still on parole right now and I have some cool parole officers right now. But my first one, he would remind me that I'm not free and I had to reframe my mind because I was coming on with the wrong expectations. I thought I was free.

[Rahsaan New York]

How would he remind you?

[Bruce Wallace]

Like, I would come back from doing something amazing like from New York or some great trip where I did a speech or invited to, you know, for a fellowship or something amazing. And I would come back feeling all good and he'd be like, yo, pissing this cup. You know what I mean? And I never used drugs in my life. This piss test, it was a requirement they threw on me after I got out. I didn't even take NA or AA to get out of prison. So, like, this new drug requirement was weird, but it felt like a way to belittle me. And then at one point, he's gonna send me back to LA just cause he didn't like me. And I was like, yo, you're gonna take me out of school, take me away from my job, take me away from my housing, my community support for what? So all those things let me know that. Sheesh. But as far as like the black and whites, the cars, police cars, they like, don't seem like. They seem like they tapped out on Oakland, you know what I mean? Meaning, like it feels like Brownsville. Like they don't care. Like they don't pull people over, they don't bother you, they don't. It doesn't seem like something that happens, except for I think there was like a couple of days where the governor like sent a bunch of police cars to Oakland. And around that time I was seeing people pulled over all of a sudden on the side of the road a lot. But since that short period of time, I haven't seen anybody pulled over since. In la, you see people pulled over every time. If you drive around for more than an hour, you're going to see somebody pulled over.

[Rahsaan New York]

What do you think's behind that? The sort of absence in Oakland?

[Bruce Wallace]

I'm new to Oakland, so I don't know the history. I Would guess to defund the police movements or the just different changing of police captains make the police feel like, well, if they want to defund it, then you defend yourself there. I'm not putting my life on the line. And you want me defunded, right?

[Rahsaan New York]

Yeah.

[Bruce Wallace]

And so I'm thinking it might be that, or maybe they're just short on staff. I mean, it's a conundrum, right? You have to do something, and we let it get so bad and we want an instant answer. But I always tell people, if you lock up somebody for gang banging, for gang murder, whatever, you don't stop gang banging. Right. The phenomenon still exists. It's growing. Right. The more you arrest people, the more it seems to grow for some weird reason. And then the person that was arrested, okay, he's not out here anymore, but he's gang banging in the county jail. He's gang banging in prison. You have not stopped it. You just shuffled it, not even shuffled it, because removing him doesn't stop that gang still exists.

[Rahsaan New York]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, right.

[Bruce Wallace]

If you do a sweep, you might. It might slow down for a little while, but a lot of times you take the wrong people away. Like the leadership, it creates a gang war. Because now that people within the gangs and outside, because now people are fighting for that position, that territory. And so what do we do? Like, the answer is not instant. It's not going to happen within a governor's term. It's not going to happen within a day. But I've been alive 54 years. The sooner we get started, the sooner we get past this.

[Rahsaan New York]

It's another podcast, the next podcast. So where do we start? What do we do tomorrow? Stay tuned for that one.

[Bruce Wallace]

One day at a time, man. We doing what we do, we get people to see that crime is really a human thing and that we see the humanity in each other and embrace each other. The smallest solution that I have that we can do right now and that we are doing right now, which you do right now, is inclusion. If I feel like part of society, I don't join a gang in the first place. Maslov has like this hierarchy of needs and your base needs of food and shelter. But higher needs are acceptance and love. You need to feel like you belong. And so we have a country that makes people feel like they don't belong or they're not valued if they don't have money or if they the wrong race or whatever, the wrong zip code. When we treat people like that, then if they don't feel like they part of this world, Then they join that other world and they get the f. The world tattooed on their face.

[Rahsaan New York]

Right?

[Bruce Wallace]

And so we just say, man, we want society, man. Love, man. This opportunity's open to you too, man. This door is open to you too. We are united. We are one country. We all one love. If we just go around with that philosophy, then instead of joining a gang, they're joining college.

[Rahsaan New York]

Mm. Amen.

[Bruce Wallace]

Amen.

[Rahsaan New York]

Now we're gonna take that previously mentioned break, and then we'll come back and listen to the second segment of this.

[Bruce Wallace]

Let's go.

[Nigel Poor]

Calling out your hustlers.

[Earlonne Woods]

We've got an announcement.

[Nigel Poor]

We are hitting the road again.

[Earlonne Woods]

That's right. Back in 2023, we had our first live tour on the east and west coast and we had so much fun. We're like, we gotta do this again.

[Nigel Poor]

So that's what's happening. Only this time, it's really like an old fashioned road show. Kind of like a 70s style rock band. We are renting vans and we are packing so many outfits.

[Earlonne Woods]

Earlonne and hitting the road. We'll start out in Nashville on August 4th, and we will drive across the south and Midwest, hitting a bunch of cities, hopefully yours.

[Nigel Poor]

Grand finale in a city I have always wanted to visit, Austin, Texas.

[Earlonne Woods]

And this time out, we've got an entirely new show. Stories from inside and outside Prison, reimagined by a cool animator, and music from some of our favorite artists you've met on the show.

[Nigel Poor]

And Earlonne, you know, I am already picking out my outfits.

[Rahsaan New York]

Yep.

[Nigel Poor]

And between you and me, we are going to need our own van. Earlonne. We are going to travel Liberace style. And you know, I am dying to see what our listeners are going to be wearing.

[Earlonne Woods]

Mm. I'm wearing prison blues.

[Nigel Poor]

What you talking about? You are not. You are not.

[Earlonne Woods]

So dress to impress.

[Nigel Poor]

For ticket info and all the details go to earhustlesq.com see you on the road. Hey, Bruce.

[Rahsaan New York]

Hey, Nigel.

[Nigel Poor]

I just got back from a little lunchtime walk. And Bruce, it is beautiful out.

[Rahsaan New York]

So nice.

[Nigel Poor]

There's a fresh breeze and I can smell all the flowers. Flowers.

[Rahsaan New York]

I know. Things smell good at my house too. Even though I have not one, but two cats.

[Nigel Poor]

Really? Are you sure?

[Rahsaan New York]

I've been told by you, among other people.

[Nigel Poor]

That's true. That is true.

[Rahsaan New York]

That's because we've switched over to Pretty Litter. It gets rid of odors so we can enjoy the nicer smells of spring.

[Nigel Poor]

Okay, we've been talking about this kitty litter and it sounds pretty different.

[Rahsaan New York]

It is different. Pretty Litter has a non clumping formula that traps odor and moisture. One six pound bag works for up to a month. Plus Pretty Litter actually changes color to show early signs of potential illness in cats like urinary tract infections or kidney disease.

[Nigel Poor]

You know, I really love that it does it because a urinary tract infection is so painful and there's no way your little kitty's gonna be able to tell you.

[Rahsaan New York]

Yeah, no, it totally gives you peace of mind. Pretty Litter helps keep my house smelling fresh and clean. Try and you'll love it. Go to prettilitter.comearhustle to save 20% on your first order and get a free cat toy. That's prettylittleitter.comearhustle to save 20% on your first order AND get a free cat toy.

[Nigel Poor]

Prettilitter.com earhustle Terms and conditions apply. See site for details.

[Earlonne Woods]

Lamont Jones world shatters when his young cousin dies in custody just weeks after entering prison. The official report says natural causes, but bruises and missing teeth tell a different story. Grief turns to frustration as Lamont faces an impossible choice. Accept the lies or risk everything to uncover the truth.

[Nigel Poor]

From Wondery comes Death County, Pa. A chilling true story of corruption, coverups, and one man's relentless pursuit of justice. Follow Death County, Pa. On the Wondry app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Sahara Khoury]

The country ready to mark the one.

[Rahsaan New York]

Year.

[Bruce Wallace]

The year that shook the world.

[Nigel Poor]

Did you watch the George Floyd video?

[Sahara Khoury]

Yes, I did.

[Nigel Poor]

What? What compelled you to watch it?

[Sahara Khoury]

Well, that's a good question. I'm not exactly sure.

[Nigel Poor]

This is Tom. Listeners may remember him from an episode we did a few seasons ago.

[Earlonne Woods]

Yep, Season five story called Tell Christy I Love Her.

[Nigel Poor]

For many years, Tom was a cop in Bakersfield, a town a couple hours north of Los Angeles.

[Earlonne Woods]

Nowadays, he works for a large law enforcement agency investigating alleged employee misconduct.

[Nigel Poor]

So Tom has really seen all sides of policing.

[Sahara Khoury]

Any video, you know, of police violence. It's a source of a great deal of ambivalence and conflict for me. You know, I can see myself in the actions of Derek Chauvin. I've, you know, used force against, including deadly force against individuals any number of times. And so I always feel a connection when I see something like that happening. I guess one of the things that disturbed me about doing that job was I began to feel an ebbing of my humanity to the point where violence became, you know, kind of routine and unremarkable. And that, you know, that bothered me.

[Nigel Poor]

There's many reasons why I wouldn't watch that Video. But one of the strongest reasons was I just didn't want to hear him ask for his mother. Like, I don't see how you could ever get that out of your. Out of your memory.

[Sahara Khoury]

I have so many things in my memory like that. It's another thing I worry about myself is how I can witness stuff like that and be so unaffected.

[Nigel Poor]

Man e. Listening to that, I forgot how raspy Tom's voice is. It is such a visceral thing, listening.

[John Yaya Johnson]

Right.

[Earlonne Woods]

That voice is a big part of Tom's story. In 1997, back when he was a B cop, Tom was shot point blank in the neck by a suspect he was chasing.

[Nigel Poor]

But really, that's just the beginning of Tom's story and also the story of Jason, the young man who shot him.

[Earlonne Woods]

Right.

[Nigel Poor]

But for now, I'll just say that the shooting and its aftermath made Tom question everything he ever learned about being a police officer and about his relationship to the black community he worked in.

[Sahara Khoury]

I had assumed, you know, really up to that point that I wasn't a racist, that I was, you know, completely unbiased. And so I thought, well, I need to look at myself. What I had were these feelings or impressions. Maybe I was a little less respectful to a young black man when dealing with him than I would have been with a white suspect. Maybe I showed a little more paranoia or concern for my own safety. You know, maybe, you know, I did act a little different.

[Nigel Poor]

I'm wondering, what was your reaction when you heard him say that?

[Tom]

Hmm.

[Earlonne Woods]

My reaction was, okay, we haven't been crazy all this time.

[Nigel Poor]

Yeah. I appreciate Tom's honesty, you know, I always do. He told us that the problem wasn't just the biases he brought to the job. It was the requirements of the job itself.

[Sahara Khoury]

When I got in my car and went out on patrol, I drove by a white, affluent neighborhood. That was part of my patrol. Pete and I went straight to the minority, primarily black community to do my work for the rest of the shift. The only time I would go back to that white, affluent community is if they called, if they had some problem, like a burglary report or a loud party. But I wouldn't spend my entire shift in that, you know, or even a small part of it in that community, because your performance in police work is based upon how active you are, how many people you arrest, how many people have citations, how many calls you clear. I mean, that's how they figure out whether you're doing your job or not. I could drive around that affluent neighborhood all night and not see a single expired tag or one cracked windshield. I could find all of those things in five minutes in the area, the less affluent area. Certainly there is bias at work here, but it's not the bias of the individual officers. It's the bias of the society that fails to give the opportunities and economic abilities to those communities so that they can afford to live a life. Because, you know, why does somebody not pay their registration? It's because they'd rather eat, you know, than pay their tax on their car. Why do they let a cracked windshield go? Well, it's because, again, they need to live.

[John Yaya Johnson]

I get what Tom is saying about impoverished communities of color and people rather go eat food than pay for a tag on a car or a broken windshield.

[Earlonne Woods]

This is Ear Hustle producer John Yaya Johnson.

[John Yaya Johnson]

But where is the empathy that comes in for those individuals who are of the cloth of law enforcement to show a little empathy? Right. Why don't we extend a little latitude as opposed to compounding the problem? Because oftentimes it's traffic stops like that that result in such tragedies that we witness. In George Floyd's situation.

[Sahara Khoury]

What frustrates me is that if you had followed me around on my career with a camera and, you know, took a video of every, you know, use of force that I employed, I can guarantee you would find some that you took issue with, you know, some you might even be horrified by. But, you know, and I hate to keep coming back to this, we react to our training. And in reference to the trial, it seemed to me in many ways the wrong person was sitting in the defendant's chair. He is a product of what conventional society believes to be appropriate policing. Now, he may, he went overboard, but he didn't happen. In a vacuum, we train our cops to be aggressive, to fear for their lives when they're out in the community, to believe that they're the thin blue line between chaos and order. That they buy into that like I did, should hardly be a surprise prize to everyone else. And, you know, to address Yahya, nothing is gained by putting one man on trial. Where we need to gain is when they're being trained. They have to remember people's humanity, that their job isn't a constant threat against their life.

[Nigel Poor]

So, Tom, if you were starting your career all over again, would you still go into police work?

[Sahara Khoury]

You know, I've got a rule about my life, and that is no regrets. The bad things and the good things both inform us and make us who we are. I wouldn't have empathy for the people I used to work with. If I hadn't suffered the loss of humanity that that job entailed, I wouldn't understand it the way I do. I wouldn't fear it the way I do.

[Earlonne Woods]

NYGE A year ago, when the George Floyd demonstrations were spreading all over the world, you and I got on the phone with New York inside San Quentin.

[Nigel Poor]

And I remember asking you both whether you thought anything was going to change and eat. You sounded so optimistic.

[Earlonne Woods]

That was the straw that broke the camel back, man. And I think it's gonna be some type of resolve from this, you know, there's gonna be some type of resolve, you know, I mean, right now people are really championing African Americans, you know what I'm saying? Or black people or brown people, you know what I'm saying? People are really out here protesting, man. Especially up here, man.

[Tom]

And that's one beautiful thing I love because I'm for the first time in my life, honestly, erlot, this is the first time I ever seen the whole world stand up. I really feel like my life matter right now.

[Earlonne Woods]

No, definitely no, seriously, like, man, I can go down there and walk on lake marriage, it's a whole different feel. It's almost a feel of former royalty as a king. I'm a king right now.

[Tom]

I'm not expecting a dramatic change. We need something new in order to have a dramatic change. And that's going to take a while, bruh.

[Earlonne Woods]

I think it's gonna be a dramatic change, bruh. I don't think I. Man, when you got people around the world, man, all on the same page, man, there's a problem, something finna get overturned.

[Nigel Poor]

A couple of days ago we called Rahsaan again and we played that tape for him and I pointed out something that had surprised me about that original conversation. I would even say sometimes you have rose colored glasses on and Earlonne is the one who's usually cynical. But in that tape, that tape, the roles were super reversed. I wonder what you think of that.

[Tom]

I think that I don't have rose colored glasses. I just believe in the capacity of human beings for the positive and for the negative. Right. And so I think I see clearly. But as far as error, man, I think that he just seen like the amount of people, the sea of people that care and he thought that was enough. And I just know it's not. Even with the Derek Sherman verdict being guilty and then going to jail and that dangerous persons off the street policing is this flawed concept where we solve everything with violence and that creates more cycles of violence. And it really destroys people of color more than anyone else. At the end of the day, we look to solve harm with more harm after the harm instead of preventing harm from happening in the first place with love and investments.

[Nigel Poor]

So what would you say to Earlonne?

[Tom]

Earlonne, you were wrong, man.

[Nigel Poor]

Earlonne, do you still feel like a king?

[Earlonne Woods]

Oh, I definitely still feel like a king. But when I walk down the street, you know, I'm no longer on that parade float where, you know, everybody's cheering me on, you know, I'm back in the crowd. I think it was just the euphoria of that type of moment, you know, and you would like that shit to last.

[Nigel Poor]

Yeah.

[Earlonne Woods]

And you know, it didn't last because, you know, next day, probably the police killed someone or I don't know. Or people just going about their lives, you know.

[Nigel Poor]

Do either of you think that what we do at Ear Hustle actually makes a difference in these issues?

[Earlonne Woods]

Hell, yeah, I do.

[Tom]

Yeah, definitely. It's about seeing the value of human beings, and we definitely show the value of human beings, that human beings have value no matter what they did or where they at.

[Nigel Poor]

Do you think that we should try to talk to more people who we would consider to be so completely different from what our values are? Like? Would there be value in talking to people like Derek Chauvin?

[Tom]

I think definitely. I think you find where the commonality is and what you agree on, and then that's a place where we can agree to get change, work on change together. Because you can't change anything by yourself or with one demographic of people.

[Nigel Poor]

I really think that's the only way you're going to make a change, is to have those conversations with people you don't agree with.

[Earlonne Woods]

We don't have to agree with everybody, you know, And I think it helps.

[Tom]

To find out why we don't agree. And a lot of times when you find out why you don't agree, it's really not that far of a gap from what you do agree on.

[Nigel Poor]

What question would both of you. What question would you ask him if you had the chance to sit across from him?

[Tom]

Yeah, man. I would ask him, like, what did black people ever do to you? That might be a tough way to start the conversation off, but I'm just curious, like, what did black people ever do to you?

[Nigel Poor]

What would you ask him?

[Earlonne Woods]

I probably would ask him. So I'm just curious, man. Like, did you think that you were going to get away with that? Like everybody else, you know, oppressing people like that? Like, what did you get from that, or what is the takeaway from that for you? For him?

[Bruce Wallace]

Yeah.

[Nigel Poor]

You know how we have to start, like, interviews by getting people comfortable so that they're gonna. What would be the comfort? Like, what would be the question we would ask him to get him in, like, the frame of mind to actually answer those harder questions?

[Tom]

What did you eat for breakfast today? I had eggs, too.

[Nigel Poor]

Me.

[Tom]

My eggs were scrambled as well, and they had cheese on them, just like you.

[Bruce Wallace]

I'm just.

[Nigel Poor]

What is he gonna learn in prison?

[Tom]

Oh, that's deep. Because if you're in an environment where you're not forced to take accountability or inspired to take accountability, he might never do it. He might still be thinking he's innocent.

[Sahara Khoury]

Right.

[Tom]

He might not think he did anything wrong, but I know I did.

[Nigel Poor]

Totally. I was thinking, like, that said it took them quite a few years before they could see what they did in a different way. And he's probably not going to be any different. Right.

[Earlonne Woods]

I think at the end of the day, the realization that someone lost their life set in, you know, and you were the main cause of that, you know, and it might not set in if you still on the force and you still getting paid by the. You know, the force. But I think once you get put in that jail cell and you got 24 hours to think about that shit, I think it definitely changes.

[Tom]

I know for me, man, for a long time, man, it took me a long time to take full accountability for the person I killed and the person I shot, because I felt like they had guns and they did this. If they didn't do this, I wouldn't have did that. And the loss is this and all that. Jibba Jabba. It took really meeting a mother whose son was gunned down in the same way to really get me, to really make me see what I did. That's when it really hit me. And I think if you. I think if you had to face George Floyd's family and just answer to them or just see or just hear them out, hear their pain, that's what gets through. That's what worked for me for sure.

[Nigel Poor]

So you guys both, would you agree that eventually he should be in a restorative justice circle and have the opportunity to participate in that?

[Earlonne Woods]

Of course he should go through all that. He should go through everything everybody else go through. It's not, you know, he made a bad decision in his life. He got to deal with that bad decision.

[Nigel Poor]

You said to me that you didn't believe in long sentences for anyone, including him.

[Earlonne Woods]

I don't you know, I don't. Because sometimes those sentences can be. I got partners in jail right now with 714 years for robbery. So sentences is harsh. So I think there should be a cap on it. Of course.

[Nigel Poor]

But regardless of how much talking about how much time he gets, do you both believe that peak could possibly change given time?

[Tom]

That's the hope. And one thing I will say too, actually, man, it's not even how much time you get. It's the quality of the time you get. And so hopefully he's in this environment where they even have restorative justice or any kind of self help groups and hopefully has a sentence that inspires him to take advantage of those opportunities to grow and to change.

[Nigel Poor]

Yeah.

[Tom]

And I sit around blaming a victim or feeling like a victim himself.

[Nigel Poor]

I know we have to wrap this up, but I will say one thing. This conversation really makes me miss coming into San Quentin.

[Tom]

A couple of weeks. Nas, I'm keep hearing. I keep hearing that every couple of weeks. I got a great interview to do, but I'm not sure if it'll give me the interview. But if you walk over that library with me, I'm sure we coming back with him to do an interview.

[Nigel Poor]

Okay. All right. I'm gonna get in touch with Sam asap.

[Tom]

That's what's up. That's what's up.

[Nigel Poor]

You know, great to talk to you, New York. It's really nice to spend a little time with you, even if it has to be on the phone.

[Tom]

It's all good. Thank you for including me.

[Bruce Wallace]

I love it.

[Troy Taleb Young]

I love it.

[Tom]

I love it.

[Troy Taleb Young]

Ear Hustle is produced by Nigel Poor, Earlonne Woods, Rashawn New York, Thomas John, Yaya Johnson, and Bruce Wallace. This episode was sound designed and engineered by Antwan Williams with music by Antoine, Rashid Zinneman and David Jasse. Amy Standen edits the show. Shabnam Sigma is our digital producer, and Julie Shapiro is the executive producer for radiotopia. Special thanks to Efield Phillips and to acting warden Ron Broomfield. And as you know, every episode of Ear Hustle has to be approved by this guy here.

[Sam Robinson]

So this is Lieutenant Sam Robinson, the public information officer at San Quentin State Prison. I was sitting there and I was listening, right? I think someone spoke about the first time that they had an interaction with the police. And so I started going through my memory catalog and trying to figure out myself, okay, what were my interactions with police? I think that every black man has a story, right? So initially, all of my interactions with police were really positive. I remember Being in high school at a bus stop and seeing cops drive by, and they would wave because I knew them. I had this ground level connection with them. But I tell you, I may not have made it to corrections because I had a negative interaction with police. And I think I was 19, and my brother would have been 11 or 12. My brother and I had went over to the Oakland Coliseum, the Oakland A's, before the season. They do a fan fest, right? We were able to go and get your baseball card signed or whatever the case may be. We were walking across the pathway and we saw these three or four, maybe five little kids. They ran up behind this family. It's a mother and her son ran up behind him, took his baseball cards and just ran off, right? And my brother and I saw it, and I was injured at the time, and so I couldn't chase the kids down, man, get this guy his cards back. But it was on my mind to do that, right? Because it was just been the right thing to do. Sure enough, I make it to my car, my brother and I get inside, and we pull out of the parking lot, and I'm surrounded by police. I'm out in handcuffs on the ground, face down. You know, the ground was wet. My brother and I are trying to explain it, and they don't want to hear anything. And I remember the mother said, yeah, it is them. Those are the guys who took my son's baseball cards. And it wasn't a kid who may have been 10 or 11 years old who looked and said, no, those aren't the guys. Those guys had a hat, and these guys don't have a hat. After that, they let us out the cuffs, we stood up. Nobody apologized. All that was said is that you could go. And I remember a man just feeling like crap that, you know, here I was, you know, first thing from my mind was doing something wrong to someone.

[Sahara Khoury]

And yet.

[Sam Robinson]

And still here I am on the ground, and there's some kid who ultimately says that, no, it's not them. That could have changed the course of my life. Instead of there being Sam Robinson saying, I approve this message. It could. It would.

[Earlonne Woods]

She would be Earlonne Woods.

[Bruce Wallace]

Exactly, yeah.

[Earlonne Woods]

Do you remember the day that the chief of police apologized to the community for the death of Oscar Grant?

[Sam Robinson]

I do remember that. It was AnchorPatrick, the former chief police of Oakland. There's some pretty hard guys in there who were broke down by that they had never, ever been apologized to. And I think that goes back to what I just said. It's. It's Important when you make a mistake, if you're human with people and you apologize to them. She definitely opened the door to a completely different dialogue that day.

[Earlonne Woods]

Gotcha. Gotcha. All right, man. And now let me just ask, man, do you approve everything you just said?

[Bruce Wallace]

I don't know.

[Sam Robinson]

Now, I'll tell you this, man. I spoke from my heart, and I will say that I approve my statement. And this episode.

[Troy Taleb Young]

This podcast was made possible with support from the Chan Zuckerberg Initiative World Working to redesign.

[Rahsaan New York]

I remember that initial conversation that you all had around the time of the protests, pretty soon after Floyd's murder. I'd forgotten. We revisited it for this episode, and you guys looked back a year later. So now here we are five years later.

[Bruce Wallace]

And again, I hate being right. Got an uncanny habit of being.

[Rahsaan New York]

Anything you'd say differently based on the five years that have passed.

[Bruce Wallace]

No, I felt like it was 100% on point. We didn't get that big change.

[Rahsaan New York]

Yeah.

[Bruce Wallace]

In fact, it started to have this momentum about taking money from policing to put someplace else and try something different. But the language defund the police made people feel like, well, if there's no police, who's going to protect me today while this new thing is being built?

[Rahsaan New York]

Right.

[Bruce Wallace]

And it felt like things went back the other way. I think their budgets increased.

[Rahsaan New York]

I mean, it feels like, at least out in California, the sort of pendulum swung the other way. A lot of these reforming DAs got voted out. Recalled the two bills here that would have changed things. One for incarcerated people and their jobs and being basically the California constitutional, being cool with the word slavery being applied to incarcerated people. That one was voted down as. And a bill making stronger penalties for various crimes was approved. So it felt like in California, which we think of as a progressive place, there's definitely some sort of law and order. There's a law and order sentiment.

[Bruce Wallace]

Yeah. I think it's just a desperation for an instant answer.

[Rahsaan New York]

Yeah.

[Bruce Wallace]

And now it doesn't feel like the 80s and 90s. I don't feel like I'm going to get shot, but I know if I park downtown Oakland, I do that every day for a month, my windows are going to get broke, so. And then you go into stores and they seem like they've tapped out of having merchandise.

[Rahsaan New York]

Yeah. Just everything in stock a safe way. And in San Francisco, that's been there for decades is closing down because of crime, because of theft.

[Bruce Wallace]

Yeah. So, like, it's not even big crime anymore, but, like, just the nuisance crime has pissed people off and. But it's Also, it's not just that. It's how it's portrayed in the media.

[Rahsaan New York]

Yeah. That's a big part of it.

[Bruce Wallace]

There'll be like two or three, like, ridiculous, wild, crazy retail thefts, and it'll just show those same two or three over and over and over and over. And they make you think the frequency is 100 times more than it really is.

[Rahsaan New York]

And also the types of crime, it's sort of like there's a sentiment, a feeling maybe that crime is up across the board, whereas violent crime, I think, is still trending down and is certainly lower than it was, like you say in the 80s and 90s. But I think sort of there's a feeling when you're like the smash and grab stuff is covered on the news, it's sort of radiates out and gives this impression that there's this new crime wave happening, which just isn't supported by data.

[Bruce Wallace]

And I think the other thing is, like, all people that are houseless and they. Some of the coolest people in the world, they sound like they protect your property. That's right.

[Rahsaan New York]

Caroline always says that about this encampment near us, is that that's the safest place to park.

[Bruce Wallace]

That's the safest place to park. Right. They.

[Rahsaan New York]

If.

[Bruce Wallace]

If anyone respects your property, being outdoors. They do.

[Rahsaan New York]

Yeah.

[Bruce Wallace]

But your first impression, if you don't know any better, is like, yo, look at all these houseless people. I'm in danger. My property's in danger. And it's normally not like that.

[Rahsaan New York]

Yeah. Hearing that tape of you on the phone from San Quentin, May of 2021. What kind of feelings did that? That would have been a year into the pandemic, and it's. And we were still sort of wondering when we'd be able to start working again.

[Bruce Wallace]

Yeah. I remember getting to the phone was, like, the highlight because I spent most of that time locked in that cage.

[Rahsaan New York]

Yeah.

[Bruce Wallace]

There was yard here and there, and it'd be like, for a couple hours.

[Rahsaan New York]

But it was a couple hours because they had to, like, each building would do yards separately, right?

[Bruce Wallace]

Yeah. And they try to, like, get yard over with, basically. Like, you might not get yard every day, so you're going to get a lot of yard today. I forgot how long it was, but it was long. It was like maybe three hours, sometimes two hours. Three hours. But then you might not go for another day or two. So he's really just trying to live up to this mandatory rule of how much yard you get a week. But other than that, you were in that Cell all day, every day. And so the phones were like, they were. They. At one point, they were once every five days. And so to get to that phone was just special to know that people were still on the other side.

[Rahsaan New York]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Two other things I was thinking of, actually. First, let me ask you, listening to that conversation with Tom, is there anything you would have asked him or any sort of things that struck you about that conversation?

[Bruce Wallace]

No, I think that they asked all the right questions. But once again, tomorrow, like, tell Christy I love her is my favorite episode because how brutally honest Tom is about policing. And he said a line about the violence became routine and unremarkable.

[Rahsaan New York]

Yeah, unremarkable. That word really stuck out to me.

[Bruce Wallace]

And as I can. I can identify with that when you. I was just thinking about this the other day. I feel, like, pretty safe and happy in my neighborhood. Like, nobody bothers my car. You know what I mean? It feels like a safe haven. The only complaint I really have about the neighbor I live in right now, which is known. Used to be known as the murder doves in Oakland, is that they're always leaving abandoned cars around for some reason. Always abandoning cars on the blocks, taking up parking space. The city takes forever to remove the abandoned car. But while I'm feeling like that, I realize my landlord been robbed at Shotgun Point since I lived there.

[Rahsaan New York]

And the neighbor street who lives in the same building.

[Bruce Wallace]

Yeah. And a guy across the street was shot at right in broad daylight. And I'm so used to, like, worse. This feels relatively safe to me. And that's so strange. Yeah. And I just realized I gotta get the hell out of there, bro. That's the safe.

[Rahsaan New York]

What the hell you're saying it feels safe compared to where you grew up?

[Bruce Wallace]

Yeah. Brownsville, the 90s. And there's this thing about not being from some place where nobody's really paying you no attention. That's older guy.

[Rahsaan New York]

Yeah.

[Bruce Wallace]

If I was a younger black male, maybe, you know, it's not like that. And I don't see any gang activity. I don't see any drugs on the corner. I don't see the type of things I had to walk by to get to the train station when I was young.

[Rahsaan New York]

Yeah.

[Bruce Wallace]

And so it feels relatively tame compared to what I'm used to.

[Rahsaan New York]

Yeah.

[Bruce Wallace]

But no, I don't live in a normal neighborhood. I gotta save up, bro. I need a raise or something, bro. I need to get out of there.

[Rahsaan New York]

I don't know who you would talk to about getting a raise. We'll have to talk to HR.

[Sahara Khoury]

And.

[Rahsaan New York]

One other thing, listening to Tom just talk about how. Well, yeah, it's sort of connected to that idea of the violence becoming routine and unremarkable is just like the tracing it back to training. Like, cops need to be trained differently. Which made me think of the California model and sort of how a similar thing, an attempt to retrain, is apparently underway in San Quentin and other California prisons where they're trying to. The training that the correctional officers get is to create a relationship that's more. How would you describe it? I mean, it's certainly not.

[Bruce Wallace]

No more us and them.

[Rahsaan New York]

No more us and them. Right.

[Bruce Wallace]

More rehabilitating, more professional, more. More human.

[Rahsaan New York]

Yeah. Collegial, even. Although that seems overstating it. But, I mean, we are seeing it in all these sort of events with corrections officers and incarcerated people, you know, sporting events and all that stuff dances out on the yard. But. So there seems to be like, a parallel there. But it also feels like, how long does that take to actually. To really, you know, for retraining, to bear results, you know.

[Bruce Wallace]

Yeah. And I think that you have people who don't believe in it, so they're gonna resist it.

[Rahsaan New York]

Yeah.

[Bruce Wallace]

And that's on both sides. Right. That's not just officers, that's incarcerated people, too. And so that idea of, like, having those type of relationships, blurring the boundaries more. Yeah, it's gonna. It's getting pushback. It's definitely getting pushed back. So it's going to take a minute, but I think that in the long run, that's the fastest way to public safety for correctional officer safety. I should say so the fastest way to institutional safety for the correctional officer and for us is to have great relationships. And you can have those relationships without telling on people. You can have those relationships with the boundaries that need to be there. Yeah, we need to get rid of boundaries that don't need to be there.

[Rahsaan New York]

Right. Anything else that stood out to you or the episode overall?

[Bruce Wallace]

Yeah, there's a lot about this episode. First, I'm going back to Tom. Like, his understanding is just so deep. And like Earlonne said, it lets me know we're not crazy. Like, it ain't just we think this. Like, Tom is verifying, like, what we see and what we believe is true. Because it ain't like I've ever been to a police training or anything. I just feel how they seem to move and for my own beliefs. But now you got somebody that was an actual cop saying stuff like he fears that job even though he got shot. He got shot. By someone. And yet he blames the job and not the individual.

[Rahsaan New York]

Yeah.

[Bruce Wallace]

He talks about and tell Chrissy I love her. How Jason's life and his job put him on a collision course. And so he blames that those paths, the way they both were taught the brainwashed to believe and think of each other as the culprit. And that's just deep. Just have his level and he's like, zen with this stuff. Man. Tom is amazing.

[Rahsaan New York]

Yeah. And he says a similar thing about Chauvin in this one. Right. He said he thinks the wrong guy was on trial. Like the system should have been on trial. Obviously that doesn't happen, but it's a similar sentiment. Right. It's sort of like Chauvin is a symptom of a system that's not working.

[Bruce Wallace]

Yeah. And that reminds me, too. I feel like two things. One, when the police turned against Derek Chauvin, they were really just trying to save policing, as I said earlier. But also we talked about, like, talking to people on the other side and trying to bridge grabs.

[Rahsaan New York]

Oh, yeah.

[Bruce Wallace]

And you know, Derek Chauvin is somebody incarcerated. And we've made moves to reach out to people on the tablets and talk to. To people in other places and other spaces and have them call in. When we going to hit Derek up?

[Rahsaan New York]

You think he's on. He on the tablets?

[Bruce Wallace]

He on the tablets. We got to figure out where he at.

[Rahsaan New York]

My guess is he's keeping a pretty low profile.

[Bruce Wallace]

Yeah, he might ignore us, but who knows, man? Maybe he has a side of story to tell, you know?

[Rahsaan New York]

Yeah, but we should. I mean, that conversation y' all were having at the end about sort of having those conversations with people you disagree with.

[Bruce Wallace]

Now we gotta try. I think the hard part is most of the time, people like that don't want to talk to you or they think that because they know where you stand and you have the control of the editing process.

[Rahsaan New York]

Right. They're not gonna come back.

[Bruce Wallace]

They're not gonna let you edit them down to some bull crap.

[Rahsaan New York]

Yeah.

[Bruce Wallace]

Another thing I liked about this episode is, like, I was rambling on and Nigel just said, cut to the chase. What would you tell? I was like, you were wrong, man.

[Rahsaan New York]

That's right.

[Bruce Wallace]

But yeah, I really like this episode and I don't understand why only five people listen to it. Bruce, it wasn't five, it was seven.

[Rahsaan New York]

I don't know. You saw the numbers recently, but it is definitely. Yeah, it's one that. Yeah, I'm really happy that you brought my attention back to this because there's A lot of good stuff in there. It's a lot, you know, because actually all I remembered being in there was the conversation with Tom, but there's so much more in there.

[Bruce Wallace]

Oh, another thing I noticed, and this is a small thing which just makes me happy. Yay, I was home.

[Rahsaan New York]

I know, right?

[Bruce Wallace]

Yay, I was home for this episode.

[Rahsaan New York]

Yeah. Yeah. It's so nice to hear him pop up in there.

[Bruce Wallace]

Yeah. Before we close out, Bruce, I just want to acknowledge that this is the fifth year since George Floyd was martyred. And I just want to say my condolences to his family. And I hope you realize that we might not have gotten all the change that we wanted, but he definitely. His death, his murder, his loss, your loss has definitely made a difference.

[Rahsaan New York]

What is his? Didn't his daughter say, my dad changed the world?

[Bruce Wallace]

Yeah. And when you said that, you probably were caught up with like, Earlonne and those crowds that have disappeared, but know that there's still some undercurrents from that movement from that moment. And he has made a difference even without the crowds being there anymore.

[Rahsaan New York]

Yep. Beautiful. Thank you. Yeah, this was nice to revisit this one.

[Bruce Wallace]

Yep. And listeners, this shows second chance. You ain't going to get a third Miss California. You don't get three strikes. You don't want three strikes.

[Rahsaan New York]

This is it. Yeah. We'll be interested to hear what listeners think if they revisit it or visit it for the first time because I guess folks miss it the first time around to let us hear from you. And yeah, let's get back to these old school credits.

[Bruce Wallace]

Boom.

[Troy Taleb Young]

Ear Hustle is a proud member of Radiotopia from prx. Radiotopia is a collection of independent listener supported podcasts. Some of the best podcasts around. Hear more at Radiotopia fm.

[Earlonne Woods]

I'm Earlonne Woods.

[Nigel Poor]

And I'm Nigel Poor. Thanks for listening.

[Earlonne Woods]

Support Ear Hustle by donating today as part of our annual fundraiser.

[Nigel Poor]

Everyone who donates will be invited to our virtual party. If you've never been, it's a really fun time where we all talk about the season and answer questions from you all live.

[Earlonne Woods]

Every gift will help us reach our goal of 1,000 donors. Head over to earhustlesq.com to learn more and please contribute.

[Nigel Poor]

Thank you.

[Rahsaan New York]

Radiotopia.

[Nigel Poor]

From prx.