Revisiting “Saber-Toothed Cat”

Summary

Ear Hustle – Revisiting “Saber-Toothed Cat”
Released: January 14, 2026
Episode focus: Long-term incarceration, adaptation, and the hidden lives of “OGs” inside prison, revisiting the story of Jerry Walker.

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Episode Overview

This episode of Ear Hustle digs back into their extensive catalog to revisit “Saber-Toothed Cat,” an episode originally released in March 2023, centered on Jerry Walker, a man who spent 46 years inside the California prison system. Hosts Nigel Poor and Bruce Wallace use Jerry’s story to explore the deep psychological adaptations of those who serve long sentences, focusing on OGs (Original Gangsters), survival mechanisms, changing definitions of freedom, and the ripple effects of prison culture shifts over decades.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

Revisiting a Sleeper Hit

• The episode opens with Nigel and Bruce discussing why “Saber-Toothed Cat” deserved a second look.
  • [04:17] “These are episodes from our 130-something episode catalog that members of the team want to revisit, feel like haven’t gotten quite the attention they deserve.” — Bruce
  • Focus is put on Jerry Walker, someone whose story unfolds slowly and intensely, and who embodies the experience of aging in prison.
• Nigel explains her joy in episodes with a single focus, especially when the interviewee has presence and candor:
  • [04:34] “When you find someone who’s a good talker and who you really connect with, it’s such a joy.” — Nigel

Hypervigilance and Survival

• Jerry uses the metaphor of the saber-toothed cat for constant vigilance:
  • [07:07] “As soon as I come out my cell, I’m looking for a saber-toothed cat.” — Jerry (D)
  • Prisoners who’ve lived decades inside develop instincts — always alert to threats, always ready to adapt.
• This hypervigilance leads to a behavioral code: always blending in, staying low-profile, reading every room for threats or exits.
  • [09:25] Jerry talks about knowing every escape route in any room and being ready for anything unexpected.

Camouflage and Invisibility as a Survival Technique

• Jerry describes deliberate efforts to become invisible inside, seeing blending in as “a great survival technique.”
• Peers say he’s “always around, but you don’t see him” — a tall man who oddly manages to disappear into the background.

Changing Times: Prison Then and Now

• Jerry recounts entering prison in the 1970s, when personal possessions were minimal, rehab programs were non-existent, and survival demanded toughness, not vulnerability.
  • [14:51] “Within your first week, you have to get up and tell your story… but back when Jerry started… prison was really stripped down.” — Nigel
  • Books, radios, and state-issued clothing were prized possessions; now, tablets and video calls have transformed prison life.
• Food has changed drastically as well (“real food… steak, not processed… always on the bone”), highlighting how older prisoners have experienced fundamentally different systems.
  • [17:58] “That somebody was making from scratch.” — Nigel

Adaptation and Coping Mechanisms: The Hole

• Jerry discusses his time in Pelican Bay’s solitary confinement.
  • Activities stripped down to basics: “Sleep, exercise, eat, and sleep.”
  • When devoid of stimulation, he learned to rely on imagination, memory, and repeating pleasant thoughts to “push endorphins” and keep his mental health intact.
  • [23:05] “Somebody always put ‘I was here’... I never wrote anything, I’m superstitious. But I always return.” — Jerry
• The segment explores how sensory deprivation affects a person—lack of sound, lack of knowing time, and the isolation’s lasting psychological impact.

Effects of Long Incarceration: Paranoia, Self-reliance, and Limited Needs

• On release from the hole, Jerry notes he’s “never the same,” with paranoia and distrust dialed up, and material needs pared to the minimum:
  • [40:00] “My suspicion of people, my way of dealing with people… If I can’t do that, I don’t want to hear about it. You trust people less, you rely on people less, you rely more on yourself, and you utilize less.” — Jerry

The Concept of Freedom

• Jerry defines true freedom as complete autonomy—living off the land, not institutional freedom or employment:
  • [42:48] “Real freedom where I could get out and live off the land… even in here, it don’t seem it, but that’s what I’m doing.” — Jerry

Music, Imagination, and Maintaining Humanity

• Jerry reveals he uses music and memories as a shield against despair:
  • [45:33] “When I was in the unit, sometimes I found myself singing or humming. It’s distraction. The music will always be whatever you’re thinking about, your last dance, your last party…” — Jerry
  • Unexpectedly, he lists bands like the Temptations, America, and ABBA as his mental soundtrack.

The Toll of Time and Illness

• When the team catches up with Jerry post-pandemic, his health and vitality are diminished—COVID has left him frail:
  • [48:34] “I couldn’t run to that wall. I can’t run from a dog. I couldn’t fight him off.” — Jerry (post-COVID)
• The emotional climax comes as Jerry sings “Slipping into Darkness,” his wavering voice illustrating the costs of decades inside.

Reflection and Legacy

• The hosts reflect on Jerry as an oral historian, a living “museum of the history of a prison.”
• They discuss how Jerry’s experience, shaped before modern prison reforms and amenities, is fading into the past.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (With Timestamps)

• [07:25] Jerry: “As soon as I come out my cell, I’m looking for a saber-toothed cat.”
• [09:32] Jerry: “If there was no other way out, I could climb out of here… I notice there’s not a lot of security back here… when he came in, I felt a lot less safer.”
• [14:28] Earlonne: “Guys like Jerry, you know, they from a different time… when prison was really hard and nobody was talking about their feelings.”
• [17:58] Nigel: “You got like real food. That somebody was making from scratch.”
• [26:07] Nigel: “So, I mean, what happens to you when there’s no sound? What changes for you?”
• [29:12] Jerry: “You create a strong mental life… you relive things over and over.”
• [40:00] Jerry: “You never walk in and walk out the same. My paranoia is a lot more. My suspicion of people, my way of dealing with people… you trust people less, you rely on people less, you rely more on yourself, and you utilize less.”
• [42:48] Jerry: “The one thing I’m not going to get… real freedom where I could get out and live off the land…”
• [45:33] Jerry: “When I was in the unit, sometimes I found myself singing or humming. The music will always be whatever you’re thinking about…”
• [46:36] Jerry: “I listen to Grateful Dead, listen to Santana, you know.”
• [48:34] Jerry: “I couldn’t run to that wall. I can’t run from a dog. I couldn’t fight him off.”
• [50:03] Jerry sings: “I was slipping into darkness when I heard my brother say…”

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Selected Timestamps for Important Segments

• [04:17] – Reason for revisiting “Saber-Toothed Cat”
• [07:07] – Vigilance in prison: the “saber-toothed cat” metaphor
• [09:25] – Jerry’s survival analysis in any room
• [14:28] – The old days: prisons before rehabilitation programs
• [17:58] – Then vs. now: food and amenities in prison
• [21:03] – Coping with cramped, shared cells
• [22:13] – The experience of solitary confinement
• [29:12] – Building a mental life to survive isolation
• [40:00] – The impact of decades-long incarceration
• [42:48] – Redefining “freedom” after 46 years inside
• [45:33] – Music as mental protection in prison life
• [48:34] – Jerry’s health post-COVID
• [50:03] – Jerry’s emotional rendition of “Slipping into Darkness”

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The Hosts’ Reflections

• On the value of documentation:
  • [52:37] Bruce: “This sort of like oral history of a place is something I’ve been thinking about more recently. And this is such a…I love that this particular story is documented.”
• On the difference in old and new prison experiences:
  • [53:39] Nigel: “They’re so much more isolated… you really get the sense that he lived in another world.”
• On the episode’s depth and craft:
  • [31:34] Nigel: “This is…a really good lesson in effective sound designing because it’s subtle, but it brings you right [into the story].”
• On the core paradox:
  • [54:00] Bruce: “Whenever you hear a sentence that long, you immediately assume that’s for murder…But it is pretty profound that he’s been in there for that long…”

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Concluding Thought

Ear Hustle’s revisit of “Saber-Toothed Cat” feels like a “living museum” piece — not just documenting policy or facts, but the intimate, irreplaceable voice of someone who has adapted to—and been transformed by—life inside. Through Jerry, the episode questions what true freedom is, what gets left behind, and how even the most invisible people leave indelible marks on history, both inside and outside the walls.

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For more stories like Jerry’s, find Ear Hustle on Radiotopia or at earhustlesq.com.

Transcript

[A]

Happy New Year my friend.

[B]

Happy 2026 to you too Nige.

[A]

Thank you. Got any New Year's resolutions Earlonne? You know I love resolutions. I have a ton of them. Too many to name here really.

[B]

I only got one and it's the one I have every year which is keep my waitin check.

[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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[A]

The new year is right around the corner and I gotta say, I love starting a new year. Earlonne. It's like getting a do over.

[B]

I'm not traditionally much of a holiday guy, but I guess I do appreciate the chance to think about things I can do different.

[A]

Like what?

[B]

You know, I keep saying I'm gonna go to the gym and I keep not going well.

[A]

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[B]

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[C]

Hey, Nigel.

[A]

Hey there, Bruce.

[C]

Happy New Year.

[A]

Right. 2026.

[C]

I did it. Have you written 2025 in the last six days?

[A]

You know what, oddly I haven't because I keep a five year journal and I write in it every night.

[C]

Oh, wow.

[A]

And so I was aware that it was 2026.

[C]

I have a lot of questions about the Five Year Journal. I'd forgotten you did that.

[A]

But the Five Year Journal's great.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

There's a page and there's five little space and so you get.

[C]

So cool.

[A]

It's very cool. But you only have like maybe 3 inches to write in. So you write very essential things for each day.

[C]

But it's lined up 6th of January for the past five. Oh, that's okay.

[A]

So now I'm in year three and it's really interesting to go back and see what I was thinking. And sometimes it really lines up like I'm thinking about the same thing three years later.

[C]

So interesting.

[A]

And it's helped me pick out things that I needed to let go of because I'm like, are you kidding? Three years later I'm complaining about the same thing or three years later I'm happy about the same thing. So it's a really cool way to track. Way to track. I don't know. What's happening in your life.

[C]

Feels very appropriate to be thinking about that early in the new year.

[A]

Yeah, totally.

[C]

Maybe sort of contemplating time and the passage of time and patterns and being somewhere for a long time is an appropriate introduction for what we're here to talk about.

[A]

Absolutely.

[C]

And this is round two. We're starting of our, I call them sleeper hits. And I always have to point out that I believe that's a misnomer. But basically what they are are episodes from our 130something episode catalog that members of the team want to revisit. Feel like haven't gotten quite the attention they deserve.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So this is the one you've chosen. This is the first batch of the second round of these. And we are going to be listening to episode 87, dropped on March 29, 2023, called Saber Toothed Cat. And why did you choose this one?

[A]

Okay, well, I love a story when it can just concentrate on one character, one person, and we don't do that many of them, but when you find someone who's a good talker and who you really connect with, it's such a joy to do. I don't really find many of our episodes stressful. But I guess I would say that it just has a very different rhythm when you're talking to one person. And of course you still have to edit it together, but you're not. It's not as big of a puzzle. And I feel like you just get to know someone really well. I find them emotional and also very fun to do.

[C]

Yeah. We were actually just planning our next season yesterday, and we're thinking about, like, we don't have one of these. That's always such a joy to find somebody that you really want to spend this amount of time with and where the story you feel like has enough variety and surprise that it's going to sustain for 30 or 40 or 50 minutes.

[A]

And you know what, it's interesting that we were talking about the five year journal because this one, when I re. Listened to, I had forgotten that this takes a couple years to complete. You're gonna be surprised when we listen. Yes. It gives me kind of goosebumps when I think about it because I. Yeah.

[C]

So this is. It's about one person. It's about Jerry Walker.

[A]

Yep. An og.

[C]

Do you remember how you met him?

[A]

I believe. And I. I'm gonna have to be corrected. I believe we met him when we were working on the episode about being OG and OG in prison. And he was just somebody who really stuck with me and I wanted to talk to him more. When you find the right person, there's something about Jerry. We have, I think, a very good rapport. And I think that you hear that in the episode. And so he's easy to sort of spar with and push a little bit. And he also pushes back. So there was just a little nice spark there. And when you find someone like that to talk to again, it makes it really fun, right? Yeah. Even though we're talking about a very heavy subject.

[C]

That's the weird thing which is basically spending so much of your life incarcerated and now being an older person incarcerated. So we're gonna listen to it up until the break. Partway through, we'll come in and talk about some initial reactions and then we'll come back at the end.

[A]

Sounds good.

[C]

So this is episode 87 from season 11. March 29, 2023. Saber toothed cat.

[A]

This is Anne Irwin, founder and director of Smart Justice California. The following episode of Ear Hustle contains language and content that might not be suitable for all listeners. Discretion is advised.

[D]

You know, I'm really paranoid and I want to know what I'm going into and how I get out of there. I check out who's hanging on the yard. Who's hanging in these areas? Right around this door.

[A]

So as you were walking down here, like, what sorts of stuff did you notice?

[D]

It ain't no trap. I don't see, you know, like, a gang of officers waiting around this corner to gaffel me up or a gang of inmates over here to. To get me. Or that you do that. I do that naturally. You have to realize that I'm conditioned a certain way to react. My defenses go up. Soon as I come out my cell, I'm looking for a saber toothed cat. Even though they've been extinct all these years, I'm looking for that. When a caveman came out of his cave, he's looking for that pterodactyl, or he's looking for that saber tooth cat, or he's looking for something to get him. And nowadays you got people that walk out the door and get hit by a car, But a car ain't gonna never hit that caveman because his defenses are already up.

[A]

So you're constantly vigilant.

[D]

Yeah, you got to be constantly vigilant.

[B]

One thing I can say, nyj, is that a lot of cats that's been locked up a long time, you know, you definitely keep your head on a swivel.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, this is not the first guy we've spoken to that does this right. Hey, when we go to a restaurant, you think about where you're gonna sit.

[B]

Of course.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Cause I'm thinking about the dude that's gonna come in and rob it.

[A]

You're looking for that saber tooth tiger.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So on the last episode, we talked about a bunch of guys like this, you know, the OGs who have been incarcerated for a long time. But this time, we're gonna focus on just one Gerry Walker. When you look around this room, what do you think you notice about it? That I don't?

[D]

That I notice about it?

[A]

Yeah, that I wouldn't notice because I'm not as vigilant as you are.

[D]

That if there was no other way out, I could climb out of here. You know, the opening up there. As old as I am, I'd have problems getting up there, but, you know. Yeah. And then I noticed that there are some windows where I can get out of here. I noticed that there's not a lot of security back here.

[A]

Do you feel safe in this room now?

[D]

Well, know what? I'm saying something? Don't take this personally, but when he came in, I felt a lot less safer.

[B]

Who's he talking about?

[A]

It was just like some random person who walked through the room while we were doing the interview. I mean, Jerry didn't. He didn't really overly react, but you could see he noted it. You know, it was like, ooh, something in the room shifted.

[B]

Got you.

[D]

My environment changes. I change.

[A]

So do you think because of how hyper vigilant you are, you're a good read of character?

[D]

I read character pretty good.

[A]

What do you read about this dude?

[D]

He got the openness in the face, exudes a lot of honesty. He don't even have to say nothing. He exudes a lot of honesty. And it's partially the way he walks.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

He don't walk like a convict. He walks more like a free person.

[A]

Interesting. Kate, give me a read of me.

[D]

You. I've seen you a lot, and you walk like one of the home girls. I asked somebody the first time I seen you, I said, who's that? They tried to say your name. I still ain't got your name. Nigel.

[A]

Yes, that's right. That's right.

[D]

And. Oh, she runs. She runs immediately. Oh, man, she's gonna want to talk to you, man. I don't want to talk to these people, man. I'm out of here. So I take off.

[A]

But we won you over.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

Typical OG doesn't want to say nothing to nobody.

[A]

Yeah. But in the end, they come around.

[B]

Well, some of them. Good thing for us this guy did. I'm Earlonne Woods.

[A]

I'm Nigel Poore. This is ear hustle from PRX's Radiotopia. So, Earlonne, I don't think you ever met Jerry Walker at San Quentin.

[B]

Nah, I don't think I knew him.

[A]

And I know you're a super observant guy and not much gets past you, but even you might not have noticed him.

[B]

Oh, he was one of them low, low profile cats.

[A]

Exactly. He just doesn't take up a lot of space.

[B]

New York. You remember Jerry?

[A]

Yeah.

[E]

He's always around, but you don't see him.

[A]

It's not like he's this little guy. Nah.

[E]

Very tall black man. But he just blends in somehow. I don't know if he has a cloak of invisibility, something. The next thing you know, I'm minding my own business and he's there.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, he does not draw attention to himself.

[E]

Not at all.

[D]

Here's the one thing that I'm always trying to do. What would you put? It's a collage. That whole wall is painted that way, and you look at it, and then a guy walks out of There, they blended in.

[A]

Mm, yeah. Camouflage, man.

[D]

I'm trying to get to that point at all times. That's the whole thing is not to become noticed.

[E]

I think that's a great survival technique. If you're not there, then nobody's paying attention to you. Then you don't get hurt.

[A]

I wouldn't mind if some of the younger guys at San Quentin learned that.

[E]

To roam or to disappear?

[A]

No, to not take up so much space.

[E]

Young people need attention. They different.

[A]

They sure do. Earlonne. When New York and I met Jerry, he had done 46 years in prison.

[B]

You know what? You don't often meet people who have done that much time.

[A]

He is basically a walking encyclopedia of a prison experience.

[B]

He's an expert. Yeah.

[E]

During your 46 years, what is the most unusual place you had to live?

[D]

Backer Bill was.

[A]

What does that mean?

[D]

Okay, okay, okay. I explained that to you.

[A]

Do you know what he means by oh, you do? Okay. Earlonne, I know you weren't there, but at this moment in the interview, Jerry made this kind of hand gesture, and I think it was dismissive.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And basically he was saying that this particular prison, it was too soft for him.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, guys like Jerry, you know, they from a different time. You know, they from when prison was really hard and nobody was talking about their feelings. You know, they probably would have been victims if they talked about their feelings back in those days. I mean, shit, you seen the movies.

[A]

But at this place, that was the kind of thing you had to do.

[D]

Within your first week, you have to get up and you tell your story.

[A]

Wait, what year was this?

[D]

This is 74. You have to tell them, yeah, I'm here, and I was an alcoholic and I killed somebody because I was under the influence or I was a gang member.

[A]

I mean, I know these conversations, they're the kind of thing guys talk about in all of the various self help groups that are very popular now, especially.

[B]

At San Quentin, but as a focus on reform and rehabilitation. But back when Jerry started out, prison was really stripped down.

[A]

I mean, guys didn't even have TVs in their cells back then.

[B]

And that's why a lot of those guys were scholars. They just read. It was cool to be smart back then, you know, there was nothing else to do.

[A]

What did you have in the cell then?

[D]

Nothing. One of them boxes over there, he's.

[A]

Pointing at, like, a two by three foot box.

[D]

All your property would fit in there. And that's transcripts from your court and everything else.

[A]

Okay. So in your cell, there was what was in there?

[D]

Nothing. Books. Or you had a radio.

[A]

Okay.

[D]

And you had a speaker in there and you could turn it to A or B and either have country western or rock on one station or rhythm and blues and something else on the.

[A]

Other station and that's it. So you can only listen to stuff.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

And then so you got state issue clothes. Like how many. What did you have for clothes? Tell me. All the clothes that you owned, you.

[D]

Had two different types of clothes. You had khaki material clothing and you had denim. The denim you could only wear to trade and to work sites. If you was going to go to library, if you was going to go any place else visiting, you had to get into what they call polished cottons. You had a khaki colored set of clothing and you had a powder blue khaki material set of clothing that you could wear on a visit you was wearing.

[A]

So, like how many pairs of pants and shirts and.

[D]

Five.

[A]

Five pants. How many tops?

[D]

Five.

[A]

How many pairs of underwear?

[D]

Seven.

[A]

How many pairs of socks? Seven T shirts. Seven shoes. Those are all the clothes you had?

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

What I love about this is that Jerry Walker remembers all of this and it's like 40 years ago. He remembers all the details.

[B]

Yeah. Nah, I mean, what else does he have to remember? You know what I'm saying? Like, no, seriously, in prison, it's like one thing, one thing that happens continuously over and over and over and over and over. So you don't really forget it.

[E]

What was the food like in 74 before packages?

[D]

Oh, man, they fed you good in the chow hall. Okay. You take a doggy bag to breakfast with you, to lunch with you, and to dinner with you. You know, might only half of your steak at dinner.

[E]

Steak?

[B]

Steak.

[D]

Yeah. You didn't get hamburgers and hot dogs for dinner.

[A]

You got like real food.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

That somebody was making from scratch.

[D]

Hot dogs, hamburgers and casseroles was lunch meals. Pork steak. Pork chops, ribeye, round steak, chicken.

[A]

On the bone.

[D]

Yeah, on the bone. Always on the bone. Then not this stuff that they give you today.

[E]

So you weren't getting that processed food out the can and the salad out the bag.

[A]

Wow. What about dessert cakes?

[D]

They had bakery. You had bakery, butcher shop, vegetable preparing rooms at every prison. It was like a lot of food.

[E]

Describe the CMC sales.

[D]

They're over under one cell's upper bunk. The next cell's a lower bunk.

[A]

All right, Earlonne, let's try to explain this succinctly because you really need a diagram. Obviously we can have a diagram. Here.

[B]

You know what it's like? It's almost like one cell is like an L, and then the other cell next to it is like a backwards.

[A]

C. It's like a bunk bed, but you're not in the same room. You're like. If you're on the bottom, you're in an alcove. And if you look up, you see the cement or whatever of the other cell. Where? There.

[B]

It's more of metal. Like, the whole wall is metal.

[A]

So, you know, regardless of the material, you can't see the person, but they are sleeping above you.

[B]

I know I said a L and a C. Turn the L backwards and then turn the C the right way, and that's how it's positioned.

[A]

I think the easiest thing to say is a debunk bed, but they are in different rooms.

[B]

Jigsaw. Mm.

[A]

Okay. Also, I imagine it's like if you ever slept on a train.

[B]

So you're not finished with this.

[E]

And then when they put a second person in that cell, they put a bed that folds up and you gotta put it down. No, you gotta put it down for your cellie to go to sleep. And once you put it down, it blocks up the whole cell. There's no floor.

[D]

No more. There's no floor.

[B]

And that's what's considered a king size.

[A]

A lower lower.

[D]

We're on a lower lower. If he rolls over, we're in the bed together.

[A]

What do you mean, a lower lower? So the way the lower lower works.

[E]

Right, like this person's sleeping on the bottom here in this bed that pulls up is like they're right in your face.

[A]

Oh, I see what you're saying. Right in each other's face. If you're in that kind of cell. I get it. Yep. I get it. Cozy.

[D]

Yeah. He rolled over and you know he.

[E]

Can fall right into your bed.

[D]

Yeah, Right into your bed. Or if he has to get up to use the restroom, he got to step on you or move all the way to the end. I told him, we're not sleeping in here. I said, you can sleep in the morning or afternoon. Let me know what you can do while I'm here. From 10 o' clock at night until 6 in the morning, we're gonna play cards or watch TV or we're gonna read or whatever, you know.

[A]

So you took shifts. You took turns sleeping during the day?

[D]

Yeah, during the day.

[A]

The idea of sleeping that close to a man was just too much to take. So you rather disrupt your whole sleeping pattern.

[D]

I mean, more just a perception of Somebody walking by and seeing me.

[A]

That's what I mean.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

So because of that, you completely changed your sleeping pattern.

[D]

Yeah. You change your sleeping patterns no matter where you are.

[A]

You know, Earlonne, listening to this, what really strikes me is that Jerry is really good at adapting.

[B]

The word he keep using is coping. And it's kind of his superpower.

[A]

And the best example of that might be pretty early on in his sentence, Jerry got in trouble and he was transferred to Pelican Bay and put in this special unit for people who are separated from the general population. Can you describe, as if you're walking in for the first time, what does the unit look like?

[D]

When you come in the unit, you're kind of confused. It's like a maze in there. Like, you're just going around in circles and circles. And then you're in the unit. The cells are right there. They walk you to the end of it.

[A]

And what do you remember as soon.

[D]

As you step in? There's a toilet right there, about 10ft to where the bunks are. The bunks are on the back of the cell. Like, if I'm standing at the door of the cell, the bunks are on that wall right there.

[A]

Okay.

[D]

They're concrete with two slots that you put your property in.

[A]

And when you go in there, do you get a sense of the other people who have spent time in there? Can you tell other people have been in there? Sometimes what gets left behind?

[D]

Markings. Somebody always put. I was here. Put their name on there.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

That used to be a superstition. Don't put your name on the wall or else you'll come back. Some guys, that was their way of.

[A]

They exist.

[D]

They exist. Yeah. Usually blacks were more superstitious. They ain't writing on no wall. They don't want to come back. Hispanics are whites. They don't care. They're gonna mark their name on there so their homeboys, their friends or. Or whatever would know that they've been there.

[A]

Did you ever write anything on the wall?

[D]

No, I told you, I'm superstitious, I guess, coming back, but I always return. You don't have nothing. You didn't get nothing?

[E]

No books?

[D]

No books.

[E]

What clothes do you have?

[D]

T shirt, shorts. Nothing inside the nail?

[E]

No.

[D]

Blue? No.

[E]

And so how do you cope without books? Do you have writing paper, pen?

[D]

No.

[E]

You can't write letters?

[D]

No.

[E]

So what did you do in there? How did you cope?

[D]

Probably first thing you're gonna do is sleep, exercise, eat and sleep.

[E]

I didn't know what time it was.

[D]

If you weren't tired enough to go to sleep and then it was exercise time. If they weren't feeding you, it was exercise time. After you get through exercising, you wash off, you go to sleep, and you sleep until you wake up again and need to exercise again. Or they opened up the tray slot and you know it's time to eat.

[E]

So when you ate, like, how was the food and how did they feed you?

[D]

I'm not a gourmet, so I eat food to live. I've always did that. Tastes a lot of times don't even matter. I'm just eating to fight hunger and to nourish myself. Even now, I don't eat for taste.

[A]

Are you actually underground?

[D]

No.

[A]

No.

[D]

Okay.

[A]

All right.

[D]

It's not underground, but it feels like it. Because there's no windows. If you're escorted someplace, you don't see no windows, no nothing.

[A]

What else?

[E]

White.

[D]

You start noticing all the white. They shut the door, put your hands through, they unhandcuff you, then they leave.

[A]

Bang.

[D]

Then all of a sudden, you don't hear no noise. Next thing you know, somebody's at the door. You don't even know they walked up. Cause you can't hear them come.

[A]

It's a solid metal door.

[D]

It's a plexiglass over thousand eyes. I call it.

[B]

Metal honeycombs.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

So, I mean, what happens to you when there's no sound? What changes for you?

[D]

I can't speak for everybody for you, but for me, I just cope with it.

[A]

You say you didn't notice it at first. What? Like, how did you start to notice. Wait, I'm not hearing you.

[D]

Somebody came to the trace lot, and the trace lot opened and then the noise came in. If you live by a freeway.

[A]

I live by a freeway.

[D]

Yeah, if you live by a freeway, when you open your door.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

And then tweak that a little bit more to where it's even quieter when the door isn't open. And it's louder when the door is open. Magnify it.

[E]

I went to the hole in 2012 for eight months.

[D]

Yeah.

[E]

Once I got books and writing paper, I actually liked the hoax. I liked to read and I liked to be by myself. And it just allowed me to write really good letters. I like to write when I didn't have the time to do in population. But that first week or two, when I didn't have any property, no soap, no food, no deodorant, no toothpaste. I didn't have a book, I didn't have paper. It was Nerve wracking. Once I got acclimated and learned how to make a fishing line and got in the swing of things and learned how to trade books with other people and got cool on the tier. It was easy. I liked it after that. But you can't fish. You got the rubber thing blocking. Like, how do you come out of that? Yeah, but the soap they give you is a hotel bar, so.

[D]

Yeah, the hand.

[E]

So it's not gonna last.

[A]

Right.

[E]

That's gonna last for what, a day? Two bird baths and it's gone. But let me get to the point. Like, so what changed when you came out of it? What changed about you?

[D]

You mean what changes it made on me?

[B]

Yeah.

[E]

How did it affect you?

[D]

Not. It didn't. It didn't really affect me. You ain't supposed to be there for five days.

[E]

Yeah. But you were there for 90.

[A]

Yeah. Maybe you can't remember, but I think what we're pressing you on is it how did. How did. What did it do to you? Like, okay, I hear you slept, you ate, you exercised.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

And then what else?

[D]

You exercise again. I don't do a lot of thinking about the streets. That's when I think. You do the crying, thinking of your grandparents, your parents. You might go through your times table, you know, whatever. Do you know how that. That song gets stuck in your head and it keeps going over and over? Everything is that way. Then I could direct what my mind concentrate on. And what you do is start pushing endorphins. What makes you feel good, Whatever makes you feel good. You're gonna push that endorphin.

[A]

Like what?

[D]

Friends, family, music, things you want to do, things you. You know.

[A]

So it sounds like what you're saying is you create. You create a strong mental life.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

And you relive things over and over.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. How'd you tell time?

[D]

You didn't worry about it. I want to get out of there when I get out of there. When I first went back there, I thought, you're back there five days and they bring you out. And so when I figured it was about five days, I didn't come out. And I'm not going to ask them. That's what they're waiting for. You can't come out of there that way. The main thing you're trying to do is not look weak, not submit. Like being a prisoner of war.

[A]

Erlynne, do you know what really blows my mind here?

[B]

What's that?

[A]

That he had the restraint to not ask when he was getting out like that. It's so hard to get if you haven't had this experience. It's really hard to get your mind around that because only thing I could imagine is being obsessed with, when is this over? When is this over? When is this over? And like, he just did not let his mind go there.

[B]

Do you think he gave up?

[A]

No, I think it's a kind of power of will.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, you know, either you have it or you don't.

[A]

Could you have done that, Earlonne?

[B]

Hell no. After five days, maybe four and a half, I'd have been banging on the door, hey, let me out. Let me out. Yeah, let me out past this motherfucker.

[A]

We're gonna take a quick break.

[B]

We'll be right back.

[A]

There's so much there. My God.

[C]

Yeah. I feel like we're just coming up for air or something. It feels like we really.

[A]

I mean, like, there's so many things that stood out to me. One, the friggin sound design.

[C]

That's what I was gonna ask you about.

[D]

So good.

[C]

It's good, right?

[A]

It's so good.

[C]

I was glad because we're in this moment of thinking about sound design for the next year and I thought, oh, yeah, we should look back at this.

[A]

This is, I think, a really good lesson in effective sound designing because it's subtle, but it brings you right. That section where they're talking about there's no sound.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

So good. You know, and it does the thing that I always want your Hustle episodes to do, where you're laughing. It's so light. It's light and easy. And then it just. There's these really difficult moments where you feel claustrophobic even hearing it.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Like when he's talking about after five days, no one came for him. And he's just like, I'm not gonna say anything. And I just, like, my heart starts pounding just imagining being in that situation of not knowing.

[C]

Yeah, it's interesting. It just has more of a feeling, I guess. There's like a lack of light in it. And I think for some reason. Well, one thing I was thinking of was talking about people who do and don't write on the walls and why you would or wouldn't. And that line about, like, I'm here is just so sort of crushing in a way, because you think Jerry Walker was in prison for 47 years. Over 47 years in California prisons. How many thousands of people have been there? And I'm just like, what, mark? Did they leave? And how many hundreds of thousands of people have experienced the same thing? He has. Anyway, I think both the close upness and the big picture of it is striking me more now also.

[A]

He's so. The quality of his voice is super engaging. I also. He's very self aware and it feels like when he's telling something that happened to him that he's right back in that moment. He's just so good at sharing information. You just feel like you really are getting to know how he operates in an intimate way.

[C]

I like it. It's a harder. In a way, it's like an easier episode to make because it just says one person's voice. So you decide which order you share what they've told you. But in a way I think. I mean there's not really a story that is gonna keep people listening from beginning. Like you're not listening to see what happens at the end. How does the story resolve? You actually just have to buy into like this is a guy I wanna spend time with.

[A]

Well, so there's so much information in it too. Like about the clothes that. Things that I love when you get a list like the clothes that he owned. Trying so hard to describe that over under.

[C]

You know, what happened. I remember at the time I was like, I still don't get this. I think I was probably annoying people in the editing. I was like, I don't understand it. I don't understand it. And at the time I never underst. But I totally understand it now. I don't know what my problem was.

[A]

That's interesting. So I mean, I think that does suggest, like you've gotta take. You gotta step back sometimes. And the description of the extra bed. So there's things that, you know, like he's sort of explaining without saying it. Like the fear of being seen that he might be gay. You know, he's like, I'm gonna stay up all night because I don't want someone to roll over and see me next to a person. He never comes out and says it, but that's very clear what some of his fears are. And that he would.

[C]

His patterns in that moment. One that really a moment that sticks with me from this is describing him as somebody who kind of fades into the background. That's another thing that seems to kind of speak to the world of prisons so much that they're. I mean maybe the world in general, but I feel like in prisons as well. Because like you're under such a lens in a lot of ways.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

The ability to do that and the awareness that there are hundreds of people that have sort of become good at that.

[A]

And it's interesting that neither New York nor Earlonne really knew much about him. And two people that had a lot of. Spent a lot of time in prison and knew a lot about prison, this guy was even able to sort of hide from those people, right?

[C]

Yeah. Okay, so we're gonna take a break, we're gonna listen to the second segment, and then we'll come back and wrap up.

[A]

Excellent.

[B]

Yay area. Ear Hustlers.

[A]

We have been teasing a live show in San Francisco for the last few weeks, but until now, we've been quiet on the details.

[B]

Yep. But now we can spill the beans. Drum roll.

[A]

Tickets for Ear Hustle Live in San Francisco go on sale Wednesday, December 17th at noon Pacific Time at earhustlesq.com tour.

[B]

We're so excited to bring our latest live show to our home audience.

[A]

We are going to be at the ACT Tony Rembe Theater, which is a beautiful classic theater in downtown San Francisco. Earlonne, come on. It's gorgeous, right?

[B]

Oh, it is. Tickets are also on sale for dates in Portland, Seattle, and la. And for each outside show we do on this tour, we're planning to do a show inside a nearby prison.

[A]

Get all the [e-mail] tour and we hope to see you very soon. And Earlonne, we gotta get those LA tickets going. What's that like?

[B]

We got la, la, LA coming through. Watch. You know, LA ain't gonna fail us.

[A]

Because we don't want to have a San Francisco LA rivalry, do we?

[B]

Yes, we do. Dodgers and the Giants.

[A]

So, Earlonne, how are those adorable babies doing?

[B]

My twin babies are a lot of work and also a lot of joy. Cause seeing they face and they smiles and, you know, getting bit, you know, the whole nine. But having kids really makes you think about what you want to provide for them. Like, I've been thinking a lot about life insurance.

[A]

Yes, that is an important thing to think about. And there's a lot of options out there.

[B]

That's where PolicyGenius comes in. PolicyGenius is an online insurance marketplace that lets you compare quotes from top insurers for free. You just answer a few questions on their website. And policygenius provides quotes from top insurers that fit your needs.

[A]

Plus, PolicyGenius has licensed agents who can answer your questions, handle paperwork, and advocate for you throughout the process.

[B]

With Policygenius, real users have gotten 20 year 2 million doll policies for just $53 a month. Ease the weight of protecting a wonderful Life. Head to policygenius.com to compare life Insurance quotes from top companies and see how much you can save. That's policygenius.com it's the new year, which means everyone's thinking about different ways of getting healthy. New diets, new programs to try.

[A]

Oh, totally. Everything from vitamins and supplements to diets like Paleo, keto, Earlonne. Remember I was on keto for a really long time?

[B]

I sure do remember that.

[A]

But the problem is without testing, you don't know what's best for you. Specifically. I mean, you wouldn't take a prescription without knowing what the problem is, right?

[B]

Nah, you wouldn't. And that's where function comes in. For one annual fee, function provides access to over 160 kind of medical tests. Everything from heart, health, hormones, metabolism, inflammation, stress markers and more. And all your results are stored in one place?

[A]

Yeah, I mean I would love to know, am I actually low in magnesium, vitamin D, omega 3s? Are toxins building up? I'd like to stop guessing and start eating from my particular biology. You know, be a lot more precise.

[B]

Same here. I recently found out I'm pre diabetic and I'm constantly trying to eat in a way that keeps me healthy. I think testing with function could help me make better choices and provide some accountability.

[A]

Own your health for $365 a year. That's a dollar a day. Learn more and join using my link. Visit functionhealth.com earhustle or use gift code EARHUSTLE25 for a $25 credit towards your membership. What was the most surprising thing that happened to you while you were in there? Like, what didn't you expect to have happen that happened?

[D]

That I didn't start screaming like everybody else? You know, when the tray slot come open, that's what you hear. Guys that couldn't cope, ah, get the psych up here and let's see if and then them guys are gone. You don't see them no more. You don't see them anyway. I say you don't hear them no more. Then somebody else will come in there. A few days he'd be belligerent, then he'll leave out screaming.

[B]

Ah.

[A]

So you walked in and walked out the same.

[D]

No, you never walk in nothing. How can you. No, you don't walk in and walk out the same. I have a lot of stuff that I hide. My paranoia is a lot more. My vertigo is a lot worse. Everything's a lot worse. My suspicion of people, my way of dealing with people, my reliance on what I could feel, what I could smell, what I could Taste what I could see what I could touch. If I can't do that, I don't want to hear about it. You trust people less, you rely on people less, you rely more on yourself, and you utilize less.

[B]

Hey, you know, maybe at first Jerry's self reliance was like, you know, a strategy or a tool of survival. But now I don't think he could be any other way.

[A]

I know. I mean, it's just like part of who he is now. And sitting with him, you know, you realize that he just doesn't need anybody or really anything self sufficient.

[D]

Me and my brother Robert, he's four years older than me, we're totally opposites, you know what I mean? He's worked for the Department of motor vehicles for 40, 45 years. Wherever I go, I called. Yeah, this is a call from Jerry Walker. He's at San Quentin Prison, blah, blah, blah. So he knows where I'm at now, but he's gonna write, man, if you need anything, man, let me know. And I'm in the cell and I barely got toothpaste and the stuff I need, but I don't overuse it, you know what I mean? That's not my way of doing things. He deserved everything he got. He chose that life. Why would I have him sacrifice?

[A]

I can't remember what the exact word was, but you kind of said like, you don't need much. For example, when New York was talking about the soap, he's like, that's not enough soap. And you said, no, it was plenty of soap. So you have a very different view of what enough is. So do you think your view of what is enough is different than a lot of people's? You seem to not need a lot.

[D]

I don't need a lot.

[A]

Yeah. So what do you need? What do you need?

[D]

The one thing I'm not gonna get. Freedom. But real freedom. Yeah, I'm not talking about just letting me out to where I could go to a factory and work. No, the freedom where I could get out and I can live off the land. I go fishing, getting food, finding a place to sleep, you know, and even in here it don't seem it, but yeah, that's what I'm doing. I always get an almanac every year. And so I always have the Constitution and the amendments. And from the start, we gave up our rights to fish, hunt, use the restroom where we want to, to not live on the streets and all this other stuff. And the government is supposed to give you freedom, but even before the ink could dry, they're like yeah, but we're gonna tell you how freedom is. It's not your freedom. You're giving away the way they want you to act, to basically enslave yourself. And I can't get over that. 40 something years later, I still can't get over it.

[A]

What, like, what do I need to know about you to know you?

[D]

Oh, man, I would like to be honest, and I'm be as honest as I can be with whoever I'm talking to at that present moment. You know what I mean? But the closer you get to society and established rules, the more I pull away. Another thing you'd know about me is I'm sensitive. There's a lot of things I have suspicion about. I've never committed a murder. I've assaulted people and I saw them to let them know, just don't mess with me. Just leave me alone. I won't bother you. I won't thread on your toes. But I don't want to do that sin. I do not want to kill nobody.

[A]

Jerry said there was this other thing that he learned to do while he was in Pelican Bay. Do you remember when he said he'd think about those memories and push endorphins? That made him happy. So there was this whole soundtrack that would go through his mind to accompany these memories, you know, like he would score them.

[B]

Yeah, I can imagine that.

[D]

When I was in the unit, sometimes I found myself singing or humming. It's distraction. The music will always be whatever you're thinking about. Your last dance, your last party, your last time you seen that person. It's like, when I think of my brother, it's usually Temptations. They speak dressed like the Temptations. You know, they even had acts dance like the Temptations dance. When I think of my homeboys, it might be a little bit more rock, like America. Ginny Naba.

[A]

Well, that surprised me. What abba I like. Okay.

[D]

That's a good group.

[A]

Yeah. Just didn't expect it.

[D]

I listened to Grateful Dead, listen to Santana, you know.

[A]

I'm gonna ask you to sing something I can't sing. You did it in the vacuum. Just pretend you're in the vacuum.

[D]

That's to myself.

[A]

Well, just pretend you're in the vacuum.

[D]

Okay, I'll do one. I was slipping into darkness when I heard my brother say.

[A]

And that's kind of where we left it with Jerry.

[B]

Then the pandemic happened. It ended up being three long years before we caught up with Jerry Walker again.

[A]

Well, maybe then I'll start that question.

[B]

We asked Jerry to Come back down to the media lab to talk with us. And we pretty much picked up the conversation right about where we left off.

[A]

So in our interview, you talked about what real freedom means to you. And for you, real freedom would just be to sleep wherever you wanted to sleep, fish, and eat whenever you wanted to eat. Do you remember that?

[D]

Yeah, if I was able to. I would like to. The thing is, is that that's not a possibility now.

[B]

Jerry sound like the oomph got knocked up out of him.

[A]

Oh, Earlonne. It was kind of a shock. I mean, he was diminished. It was tough. I mean, he had gotten Covid, and it really took a toll on him.

[B]

Yeah, I think it did a number on the older crowd.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[D]

I couldn't run to that wall. I can't run from a dog. I couldn't fight him off.

[A]

So are you saying it's better for you to be in here?

[D]

I don't know.

[A]

I.

[D]

It's never better for you to be in here. Not with the type of stuff that goes on in here. It's hard for me to move, you know? I barely gets through each day, my boy.

[A]

And you walked all the way down here.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

You sang for me last time, and I was hoping you'd sing a little bit more of Sleeping Into Darkness for me. It was so good.

[D]

No. Well, now I'd have to ask for royalties, because. I'll give you royalties because, you know, the first time was for free. Now since you.

[A]

Because I want it so much. You're gonna charge me? Oh, your heart.

[D]

Ain't that what everybody else do in this world?

[A]

Just a couple lines.

[D]

Oh, man. I don't know why you're putting pressure on me.

[A]

Because you have such a good voice.

[D]

No, I don't have no voice.

[A]

Yes, you do. I remembered your voice more than I remembered your face.

[D]

Let me see.

[B]

Well.

[D]

I was slipped in into darkness When I heard my brother say I was slipping in the darkness When I heard my brother say he said you've been slipping into darkness and soon you'll have to pay. I think that's it. I don't. I don't know if that's the right lyrics.

[B]

So, Nigel.

[A]

Mm?

[B]

Could you imagine doing 46 years in prison?

[A]

My immediate answer would be no, I don't think I could. But. But there's some situations where you absolutely couldn't know until you were in it. Me sitting across from you in a studio right now? No, I don't think I have that.

[B]

Well, it's a long time, you know, It's A long time.

[A]

Well, I don't know when we're gonna see Jerry again, but I definitely want to catch up with him.

[B]

I like when these old cats get on the mic. They give us something that we don't usually get.

[A]

I know. I mean, their memory is.

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

It's a museum in a way. It's a museum of the history of a prison, definitely.

[B]

And we did make a record of them.

[A]

I gotta introduce you.

[B]

Next time we go in, please do. Looking forward to it.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

Wow.

[C]

We're back.

[A]

We're back. What did you think, Bruce?

[C]

Well, a lot of things I'd totally forgotten. Slipping into darkness. Yeah, I'd just forgotten the timeline, too, that we'd talked to him, I guess, before March of 2020. And then we finally released it three years after that.

[A]

I don't know why we waited so long. Yeah, he might be in the OG episode, but there was too, like, Amy wanted to cut so much, so much, so much, which would make sense. And so we were like, we should just make an episode with him.

[C]

I mean, it's one of the things you can do when you make a podcast for a long time, is that stuff sticks around and it sort of ages in interesting ways. And you get to it.

[A]

When you get to it, it's so interesting. We started talking about the Five Year Journal because this really is a story that developed over, what, three years, four years at least.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

That's crazy.

[C]

And that thing that you said at the end about the museum, it's funny, I've been thinking about that, about Ear Hustle more generally recently. Is that eight years in or. Yeah, I feel like that's not what you all set out to do, but I think this sort of like oral history of a place is something that I've been thinking about more recently. And this is such a. I love that this particular story is documented.

[A]

Yeah. It also makes me think about how guys this age that were in prison for so long had such a different experience than people are having now. They're so much more isolated one. Cause now they have the tablets, they can do video visits. Obviously they didn't have those things, and prison was much more closed off. I think you really get the sense that he lived in another world. And one of the things that really shocked me, I remember when he said it, and thinking about it again now, is when he's talking about what freedom is, you think he's going to say he wants to get out of prison, but it isn't that he's desiring A freedom that he said people gave up as soon as the Constitution was signed.

[C]

You start thinking about freedom differently if you've been locked away for that long.

[A]

Totally. And, you know, also when he says, I didn't kill anyone. I don't want that crime. I also like that we don't. I don't know what his crime was, but you think, what did he do that he was in prison for so long he didn't commit murder?

[C]

Right. Yeah. I like that we don't pause on that. But it is pretty profound that he's been in there for that long, because whenever you hear a sentence that long, of course, you know, immediately assume that that's for murder.

[A]

Yeah. And he's so deliberate. When he says, I don't want to. I don't remember his exact words, but he's like, I don't want to commit that sin.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And then he says, yes, I've assaulted people. He has this real code that he appears to live by. And I hope people hear the difference in his voice when he sings. But I think it's very emotional to hear him sing that at the end because he's clearly, at this point, really is slipping into some kind of darkness. But he kind of. When I'm sort of pushing him to sing, you kind of hear that little spark in his voice again, like he. His voice gets a little more animated. Yeah. Interesting ending choice.

[C]

I was very surprised, in a nice way, to hear him talk about a brother, because up until that point, you don't imagine. I mean, it's. I guess that's the thing about the way he tells his story and maybe about imagining somebody being in prison for so long, it just feels like he's so solitary. You don't imagine necessarily the life he has outside.

[A]

I know. I know. You want to ask if I've seen him since? I feel really weird that I haven't. I want to track him down, and if he's still at San Quentin, I want to sit down and listen to this with him again.

[C]

Did you. Do you remember?

[A]

Yeah, I remember. We listened to it. He loved it.

[C]

Oh, he did.

[A]

But it's been, you know, it's been a while, obviously, so I'd love to listen to it with him again and see what stands out for him.

[C]

I'm very glad to have revisited this one. There's, like, a lot more there than I remembered.

[A]

I'm glad to hear that. That makes me really happy.

[C]

Okay, now let's listen to the credits.

[A]

Ear Hustle is produced by me, Nigel Poor Earlonne Woods, Amy Standen and Bruce Wallace along with Naroli Price and Rahsaan.

[B]

New York Thomas with help from Tony Tafoya and Rashid Zinneman. This episode was sound, designed and engineered by me, Earlonne woods with help from Fernando Arruda.

[A]

It features music by Antwan Williams, Earlonne Woods, Rashid Zinneman and David Jassy.

[B]

Amy Standen edits the show, Shubnam Sigman is the Managing Producer and Bruce Wallace is our Executive Producer.

[A]

Thanks to Acting Warden Oak Smith and as you know, every episode of Ear Hustle has to be approved by this woman here. I am Lieutenant Giamare Berry, the Public Information Officer here at San Quentin State Prison and I approve this episode.

[B]

This episode was made possible by the Just Trust working to amplify the voices, vision and power of communities that are transforming the justice system.

[A]

Don't forget to sign up for our newsletter the Lowdown, where you can learn more about each episode and find out what the Ear Hustle team is up to. Please [e-mail] Newsletter. You can also find the show on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram @Earhustlesq.

[B]

Ear Hustle is a proud member of Radiotopia from PRX, a network of independent, creator owned listener supported podcasts. Discover audio with Vision at Radiotopia FM I'm Earlonne Woods.

[A]

I'm Nigel Poor. Thanks for listening.

[B]

Jigsaw. We've confused everyone.

[D]

Radiotopia.

[A]

From prx.