The Loop Ep. 6: Make Your Partner Look Good

Summary

Ear Hustle – The Loop Ep. 6: Make Your Partner Look Good

Release Date: December 17, 2025
Hosts: Nigel Poor & Earlonne Woods

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Overview

In the season finale of "The Loop" series, Ear Hustle delves into a unique and rarely-permitted visiting program for incarcerated parents at Rikers Island, shining a tender and sometimes raw spotlight on parenting from behind bars. Through intimate and often emotional storytelling, the episode explores how moments of family connection are orchestrated at the Children’s Museum of Manhattan. The hosts connect with two families—Jesus and Ashley, and Liz and Isaiah—offering real, unfiltered perspectives on love, longing, resilience, and the cost of incarceration for families. The episode also reflects on the meaning and impact of these fleeting yet powerful reunions, closing with a moving Christmas carol tradition inside San Quentin.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Children’s Museum Visiting Program

[04:00–08:31]

• Incarcerated parents at Rikers are allowed, twice a month, to leave jail in shackles and regular clothes—not uniforms—to spend a few precious hours with their children and families at the museum.
• The logistics are elaborate: extensive security, a feast provided, and a playful, non-prison environment for families to connect.
• The striking contrast between armed corrections officers and pastel, toy-filled rooms highlights both the unnaturalness and moving nature of the occasion.

“It’s so incongruous to see all of this happening in this pastel room full of kiddie toys.” – Nigel (06:35)

2. Family Connections: Jesus, Ashley & Their Son

[08:43–17:48, 21:04–21:44, 47:54–53:10]

• Jesus, a young father recently sentenced to three years, reflects on missing his infant son’s early milestone and his desire to change his life for his child.
• Ashley, Jesus’s girlfriend, describes him as supportive and present, even as he faces incarceration. She speaks frankly on the emotional labor and complex logistics of prison visits.

“As soon as I held him, I cut the umbilical cord...and when I held him...it seemed like his crying was stopping a little bit. You know, he was still crying, but I felt like I was soothing him some type of way.” – Jesus (11:59)

• The pair express hopes to build a new life upstate and keep their son away from negative influences after Jesus’s release. They are determined to break cycles, even if it means never telling their son about his father’s incarceration.

“Now it’s not about you anymore. Now it’s about your son. Your son is going to be two and a half, three years old when you come home...you’re going to have to take into consideration changing your life around.” – Ashley (19:24)

3. Family Connections: Liz, Isaiah & Their Daughters

[26:22–44:15]

• Liz, a driven grad student and single mother, describes her determination to rise above statistics as a former foster youth, teen mom, and partner to an incarcerated father.
• She speaks candidly about the realities of solo parenting and her complicated relationship with Isaiah, her daughter’s father. The exhaustion and logistical strain of supporting these rare visits is palpable.

“I don’t wanna be a statistic...life doesn’t stop. You have to make the best of your environment. I am a product of my environment, but I’m not the negative product or aspect of my environment.” – Liz (29:49)

• Isaiah, facing possibly a life sentence, shares his aspiration to be a present father despite his imprisonment, the loss of his own father, and the challenges of parenting at a distance.

“I feel like being active, like physically, there’s a very important piece of being a father.” – Isaiah (43:09)

4. The Uniqueness—and Pain—of the Experience

[41:27–47:05]

• The hosts emphasize how rare and extraordinary it is for incarcerated parents to spend a day with their families outside of jail walls.
• The emotional aftermath is profound. For some children, the parting at day’s end is heartbreaking; for parents, it reignites both joy and deep pain.

“Those kids with their little arms stretched out being like, ‘Daddy, daddy, don’t leave me.’ It was crushing.” – Nigel (46:12)

5. Reentry Struggles & Communication

[47:54–53:10]

• Jesus discusses the anxiety of returning to society: from learning how to make conversation after years of silence, to the challenge of forming meaningful connections post-incarceration.

“In here, I’m kind of more to myself...out there, it’s getting used to starting conversation. Like, I’m not really good at that.” – Jesus (49:11)

6. Reflections on Connection, Remorse, and Hope

[53:25–56:29]

• The episode closes with the hosts reflecting on the bittersweetness of these ephemeral moments and questioning whether their attempts to make a difference truly matter.

“We peel people open, you know, expose their feelings...sometimes it makes me feel melancholy at what we do.” – Nigel (53:47, 55:04)

7. San Quentin Christmas Caroling Tradition

[56:50–61:23]

• The Ear Hustle team participates in an annual holiday caroling event inside San Quentin, offering a brief glimpse of joy and community spirit.
• Formerly incarcerated and current residents comment on the emotional impact of these small gestures.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the surreal joy of gathering outside prison:
  “Actually leaving jail to go do something with your family, that’s unheard of.” – Earlonne (04:57)

• On healing through parenting:
  “I love him…As soon as I held him...That’s how I know I really love him, you know?” – Jesus (12:13, 12:26)

• On parental sacrifice:
  “It’s not about how I feel. It’s about how they feel. It’s not for me. It’s for the kids. I’m just the person that has to bring them.” – Liz (44:07)

• On uncertainty and hope:
  “You quote Josie, I’ll quote Caesar. It’s all about the attempt.” – Earlonne (56:24)

• On tradition and community:
  “We wish you a Merry Christmas…My experience this year was different. It was really nice. It was wholesome. It was joyful.” – Tony Toya, reporting (59:20–61:23)

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Key Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment / Topic | |------------|-----------------------------------------------------------------------| | 04:00 | Introduction to the Rikers–Children’s Museum visiting program | | 08:43 | First story: Jesus, Ashley, and their young son | | 14:35 | Jesus and Ashley share their love story and early parenting | | 17:48 | Ashley discusses prison visiting challenges | | 26:22 | Second story: Liz, Isaiah, and their daughters | | 29:49 | Liz reflects on breaking cycles and statistics | | 31:12 | Isaiah’s background and perspective as a father | | 35:24 | Isaiah meets his daughter for the first time after release | | 41:27 | The emotional and logistical work of visitation for mothers | | 43:09 | Isaiah on the meaning of being a present father | | 46:12 | Children’s heartbreak at saying goodbye | | 47:54 | Jesus describes reentry anxieties and conversational barriers | | 53:25 | Hosts reflect on the meaning of making a difference | | 56:50 | San Quentin Christmas caroling and community moments |

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Tone & Style

The tone is intimate, compassionate, and honest, capturing moments of humor amidst sorrow. The hosts balance attentive listening with gentle questioning, accentuating both the resilience and the pain experienced by incarcerated families. Their conversations are direct but empathetic, often letting participants’ voices linger to highlight emotional truths.

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Takeaways

• The episode provides a rare, inside perspective on the everyday toll of incarceration for families, focusing on the small, precious moments of joy that break through even the most daunting circumstances.
• The storytelling underscores not only the challenges but also the hope and mutual support that families find—even, or especially, in situations of separation and uncertainty.
• Through the lens of these families, listeners witness resilience, love, and the human longing for connection, anchored by the hosts’ thoughtful and authentic approach.

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Memorable Closing

“Shine a light in a dark place.” – Earlonne (55:23)

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For more details and full credits, visit earhustlesq.com.

Transcript

[A]

Hey, it's Nigel here and Earlonne. As you hopefully have heard by now, we are halfway through our fall fundraiser for Radiotopia, our network of independent podcasts.

[B]

One thing we love about the Radiotopia fundraiser is finding out why you're supporting us. It means so much to hear from you.

[A]

Like this comment from a listener named Too 99% Invisible brought me to Radiotopia a decade ago, but I stayed for Song Exploder Normal Gossip Articles of interest Ear Hustle and the Heart. Thank you for supporting supporting so many incredible creators. Your shows have genuinely changed my life, expanded my knowledge and understanding of the world, and made me a better person. Thank you two. That's so nice.

[B]

Or this one from Jared. What got me to donate was the idea of donating to many of my favorite podcasts and that I might be contributing to a show that doesn't even exist yet. That might become one of my favorites. That's what's up.

[A]

That's a cool way to think, really. Donating to Radiotopia not only supports Ear Hustle like Jared says, it also is a way to support what could be. It's a vote of confidence in our business model and a celebration of this collective of independent creators.

[B]

Right now, while we recording this, we are at just 431 donors, which is 29% of our goal of 1,500 donors before December 31st. If ear hustle has meant something to you this year, please make your tax deeds deductible donation today at Radiotopia fm. Donate.

[A]

Your donation gets distributed among all the creators in the Radiotopia network, and every gift will help us get closer to our goal. That's Radiotopia fm. Donate. Thanks so much.

[B]

Before we get into this episode, we have an announcement.

[A]

Yes, a couple weeks back we told you all about our west coast tour coming up early next year. That's going to take us through Seattle port and a bunch of prisons along the way.

[B]

And we just added one more date to the lineup and it's a big one.

[A]

Yes, it is.

[B]

San Francisco, our hometown.

[A]

We're going to be at the beautiful historic act Tony Rembe Theater in downtown San Francisco.

[B]

Get yourself to earhustlesq.com tour for dates and details for all of our shows. And get yourself some tickets before they sell out.

[A]

You know, Portland's almost sold out.

[B]

Pretty much.

[A]

Yeah. My name is Annie Penson. I'm here to give a voice to the voiceless. I am standing on Rikers island in front of the Robert Endeavorin center, right across the street from Laguardia Airport in Queens, New York. The following episode of Ear Hustle contains language and content that may not be appropriate for all listeners. Discretion is advised. Okay, so the vans are just pulling up. People are walking by thinking that they're famous people. Okay, more COs are getting out of the vans. We'll get you a little closer and you'll be able to get some of that jingling that you do.

[C]

Five to nine. Identify yourself once they off the Radiance.

[B]

The guys just came in, of course, under heavy escort, and they're on their way up to see their kids. What were we up to on this day?

[A]

Well, Earlonne, we were at the Children's Museum of Manhattan, finally getting to spend time at a program that we had been hearing about for a very long time.

[B]

Twice a month, parents who are incarcerated at Rikers are allowed to actually leave the jail.

[A]

That's right. They get all shackled up. They're put in these vans, and they drive all the way from Rikers island to the Upper west side of Manhattan to the Children's Museum of Manhattan. And they're not wearing their prison uniforms. They are wearing regular street clothes.

[B]

So they arrive, they go upstairs, they get their shackles taken off, which takes a while because, you know, these are full chains that go around their waist. You know, they got some on their ankles as well.

[A]

It's so incongruous to see all of this happening in this pastel room full of kiddie toys.

[B]

The museum is closed that day, and they get to spend the afternoon with their family in a place that looks nothing like a prison visiting room.

[A]

We first heard about this program over a year ago, and we just couldn't believe it.

[B]

Actually leaving jail to go do something with your family, that's unheard of.

[A]

I think it's one of a kind.

[B]

Totally. I'm Earlonne Woods.

[A]

I'm Nigel Poor. And this is the final episode of the Loop make youe Partner Look Good.

[B]

Not that hard for you. From ear hustle and PRX's Radiotopia. A door, a locked door that I can't open. That's the first thing I always see.

[C]

I call it Baby J. I'm like.

[A]

This is Baby Joe.

[D]

Gentlemen, gentlemen, gentlemen.

[C]

I can't say that my plan is.

[D]

Just to keep robbing, but it's like, that's all I know. I'm a product of my environment.

[B]

You know, we're on a constant loop. This loop never ends. I don't think it's going to end.

[A]

So we have a little flower frame.

[C]

That you guys can decorate with your families.

[A]

We also have cups that you guys.

[C]

Can decorate with your family.

[A]

And they get to take home the. And then these hearts and they'll be able to plant them right in here. The museum staff was setting up these very elaborate arts and crafts activities and showing the ropes to about six dads who had just arrived from Rikers island.

[B]

And 306 staff and security officers.

[A]

It definitely felt that way because these dads were outnumbered. There were all these burly correctional officers and museum staff and people from the Department of Corrections. It is a lot of people who, who make this happen and they all want to be there to witness it. And it's great, but it is also a little bit awkward.

[B]

And it's funny because they're in this very kid focused spot, all bright colors and toys everywhere. All these little areas for kids to play in and climb on.

[A]

Yeah, like they had this little supermarket area set up a fire truck that the kids could climb on. And then of course, that big dragon in the center of everything that kids could feed tiles to and make talk. A is for apple. Excuse me. And everything is proportioned for children. The chairs, the tables, the crawling spaces. So, Roland, even though this was going to be like a joyous day, I did notice when the guys got in there, they all looked pretty uncomfortable, like they weren't quite sure what to expect, you know. So I think there was a lot of anticipation that was making people nervous.

[B]

They knew they was going to see them.

[A]

Kids, here's Leslie Bruchara welcoming everyone. She's the Chief program officer at the Children's Museum of Manhattan. You can go anywhere you want on this floor. There's food around the corner. You can grab a snack, you can run around, you can sit, you can chat, you can read, or you can do the art. Whatever you want to do is fine today. And we're just really glad that you're here. All of the kids are downstairs and they're going to come up. The staff were really bending over backwards to make this a special day for the families. I mean, we'd been hearing about this food forever.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, they had a whole spread out here, A table full of.

[A]

Sandwiches, like a hundred plus sandwiches.

[B]

Different type of sandwiches, turkey. All kind of Panera bread sandwiches.

[A]

Yes. And chips and fruit salad, cookies, yogurt, cakes. Drinks. So much food.

[B]

So much food. They even had little kid drinks. Even if you'd only spent a week on Rikers, this right here was a feast.

[A]

I walked up to one of the guys named Jesus. Remember, he was tall super skinny. He had very scraggly braids. Not quite dreads, not quite braids.

[B]

He had twists.

[A]

He had twists. He had really, like, bright eyes. Yeah. We wanted to know how he was doing. So what's going through your mind right now? What are you thinking about?

[D]

I can't wait to see my son.

[B]

Until now. The kids and their moms had been waiting downstairs in the lobby, but now it was time to come up.

[A]

There was this odd music playing. I know it was supposed to be, like, kiddie music, but I don't know, it was a little strange. And the kids were walking into the room, but it was kind of tentative. They weren't quite sure where to look.

[C]

Look at that, dad.

[A]

They didn't know exactly what was gonna happen. Cause some of them are pretty little.

[B]

Can you tell us. First, identify who you are and what. How much time are you facing?

[D]

My name is Jesus Santiago. I just took three years.

[B]

Rikers is a jail, meaning people are housed here while they're going through their court proceedings. Jesus just got sentenced to three years in prison. Pretty soon, he'll leave Rikers and head to prison upstate to do his time.

[A]

His son was born just a few months before he was arrested.

[D]

I left him probably when he was, like, four months.

[B]

Oh, so you was there when he was born?

[D]

Yeah, I was there when he was born.

[A]

Were you excited when you found out you were gonna be a father?

[E]

Um.

[D]

Honestly, not really. You know, I'm young. I just turned 22, and I wasn't really ready to have a kid. I told my lady this, but she wanted to keep it. Now I wouldn't. I don't regret it for anything in the world, you know, Like, I love him.

[A]

When did it change?

[D]

Honestly? After he was born. She said she was dilated or something, that her water had broke. And I didn't believe her until we got to the hospital. And then they were like, oh, she's certain. Centimeters open and that she was ready. And I was like, wow, today's the day. I didn't really understand how real it was until he was born. Yeah, he was in the room. Yeah, I was in the room. I have a whole video. They was telling me, yo, stop recording. I was like, oh, yeah.

[A]

Like we said, there were six guys, and each of them had, like, one or two kids visiting them and a mom or a caregiver. And some of the kids were a little older, Arlonda, I think, like, maybe six or seven. And there were a few toddlers. But very quickly, everyone just separated into their family units.

[B]

Didn't see the guys interact with each other at all.

[A]

No. And some of the kids were really into the crafts. Others were crawling on their parents and just like, being chased around the museum.

[B]

And it was cool watching Jesus and his girlfriend Ashley, you know, kind of get their parent known.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

You should try to feed him because you know how he gaze. I feel him heavy.

[A]

Now. I mean, your face is changing. As soon as you start talking about him. You look so happy. Like, what was the moment for you when you realized that you loved him in this way?

[D]

As soon as I held him, I cut the umbilical cord. He was crying and stuff. And then when I held him, it was like. It seemed like his crying was stopping a little bit. You know, he was still crying, but I don't know, I felt like I was soothing him some type of way.

[A]

Did you cry?

[D]

Yeah, I cried.

[B]

Yeah. He said he happy. I think he ready to cry now.

[A]

Are you getting little tears?

[D]

Nah. Yeah, sometime when I think about him.

[B]

But n. That's what's up.

[A]

And had you ever had a feeling like that before?

[D]

No. That's how I know I really love him, you know?

[B]

Okay.

[A]

It was a little awkward being there with our microphones. Like, we wanted to interview people and we're sort of milling around, but I know neither of us wanted to interrupt the families because really, they only get a few hours together.

[B]

Visiting with your family. You really want to just talk to your family and nobody else. So, you know, us watching them make these crafts and watching people chow down on their sandwiches, it's like, how do you jump in?

[A]

Exactly. But it's our job.

[C]

Yeah, he's hungry.

[D]

Got his food and stuff.

[A]

Jesus was like laser focused on his family Earlonne. He didn't even eat. And food seemed to be the same second biggest attraction of the day. Instead, he and Ashley were just like this island unto themselves with their kid.

[B]

But, you know, everyone loves to talk about their kids.

[A]

What's your son's name?

[D]

He's the third. Jesus Santiago. I'm a junior and he's a third.

[A]

When you think about him, what kinds of. What sorts of images or thoughts run through your mind?

[D]

He's just real funny. He's a big kid, too. He got big hands. He was born 9, 9 pounds, 8 ounces, and I believe, like 19 inches. 19 inches tall. He's a.

[A]

That's almost 2.

[D]

Yeah, he's a tall kid. Like, real big. My girl is pretty big, though. Yeah, she's like my height. I'm 6 1. She's like 5, 11 5, 10.

[A]

He's crazy.

[C]

Oh my God.

[B]

Hey, jj.

[A]

So what sorts of things do you see when you close your eyes and think about your son?

[D]

Just happy. Every time I think about him, I gives me a little glimpse of happiness.

[A]

Yeah. Do you remember how he smelled and how he felt?

[D]

Yeah, it smells like. Like has a different scent. Just like all babies have their own personal smell. And he smells. He's a funky baby. It's a good funky smell.

[F]

I don't know.

[D]

I like it. It smells like sweat.

[A]

How did you meet your lady?

[D]

Well, I met her sister first at a party. And then afterwards I called the sister's phone and my lady now is the one that answered. And I just started talking to her on the phone that day and then just never stopped talking to her. I think we were on the phone for like seven, eight hours.

[B]

How old were y'?

[A]

All?

[D]

I was probably like 13. Yeah. I guess you could say it's my first real relationship and it's been lasting this long.

[F]

Hi. Good morning. I'm so sorry. I had my phone in the living room and I was putting the baby to sleep in another room.

[B]

This is Ashley. Jesus calls her his lady. We spoke to her on the phone the day before the museum visit.

[F]

I'm 24 years old. I'm currently a nursing student. I'm a full time mom and I'm also a full time college student. And I also just got a job working full time at a hospital as an emergency department registering clerk.

[A]

Do you know what, do you know what Jesus calls you, but he doesn't use your name?

[F]

He calls me my lady.

[A]

What do you think of that being called my lady?

[F]

I mean, I think it's cute.

[B]

And how is Jesus as a father? How has he been through the whole like, process of you being pregnant?

[F]

He's been an amazing dad and he's also been an amazing partner to me as well. He was there through every step of the way before I gave birth, like during my pregnancy and everything. He got me on my cravings. It would be 2 o' clock in the morning. I would be like, babe, I wanna a chicken cutlet sandwich. And he would be like, okay, I'll go to the store and get it for you. So I never had an issue with him like during my pregnancy. And then after, he was very, very helpful. We would take turns during the night to give the baby milk and stuff like that so I can rest. I couldn't have asked for a better person to be by my side. The last time I seen him, when he was free was March 6th. That day was like a lot of mixed emotions. You know, we were crying that day. We had taken him to court. It was very emotional.

[D]

It was. It was a sad moment. It was a sad moment, but I try not to think about it too much because I don't want to beat myself up.

[F]

You know, he didn't even want us to go into the courthouse because, you know, he didn't even want us to see him go in.

[D]

I told her, I understand y' all want to be here, but I don't want y' all to be there when, you know, I get arrested in the courtroom.

[A]

And how did you say goodbye to him?

[D]

Hugged him, kissed him, held him for a little while, and then, yeah, let them go in the car.

[B]

Until now, the only place Jesus could see his family was in the visiting room at Rikers.

[F]

It's not a good environment that I necessarily want my son in because first of all, the visiting process, it doesn't take an hour, two hours. It takes hours, from five to six hours. And I don't want to put my son in a situation where he has to be checked. It's just very frustrating.

[B]

If that partake for five hours, how long do you get to visit with them?

[F]

They only get one hour. And then when I went to see him last week, I was only there for like 40 minutes because the baby was getting cranky and it was already like 7:30 at night, and I had gotten there at 1:30. If you think you're going in there and seeing your loved ones within an hour, you're totally wrong. You have to have a clear schedule. No work, no appointments, nothing like that. You have to take a whole day just to go see them.

[A]

So this program at the Children's Museum of Manhattan is very new. Not just new for the guys, but for the families too.

[F]

Like, this has to be like a privilege for them to let inmates leave the facility. Because I don't think I've ever seen or heard of a correctional facility let inmates actually leave and go spend time with their families.

[A]

I haven't either. He was looking like, yeah, you see him, right? He does that.

[B]

I don't know.

[D]

He gets. He just gets crazy. He clenches his fist and he starts. He makes dinosaur noises.

[A]

I'm curious when he, you know, when his time is done. What's your vision? What's your fantasy of what's going to happen after that?

[F]

Our plan, we already spoke about it, is we're going to stay upstate. We're not coming back down to New York City. One thing about Jay, he's someone who you can call for for anything. And sometimes I feel like his friends would, in a way, take advantage. And I'm like, you know, people sometimes see the good in you and they want to use that against you. I feel like he just needs to be far away from, you know, certain people that don't align with his future. I was like, now it's not about you anymore. Now it's about your son. Your son is going to be two and a half to three years old. When you come home, he's going to watch everything you do. If you do something, he's going to want to do it because he's going to want to be like daddy. So you're going to have to take into consideration changing your life around. You don't want your son to go down the same path as you, you know?

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. How long did you say you're looking at?

[D]

Three years. It's 30 months. And possibly if I get upstate, I'll be able to do college or something to reduce six months from my sentence, and I'll be doing two years flat.

[A]

Do you think in the future, when.

[D]

He'S older, I'm probably not gonna tell him?

[A]

No.

[D]

Yeah, I'm not gonna tell him.

[A]

Not gonna tell. Yeah.

[D]

I wouldn't even want him to have that thought on his mind. Oh, my father. No, I would just rather him not know.

[A]

Yeah. So just live a different kind of life. Yeah. So what do you imagine, like, 10 years from now? What's your life like?

[D]

I mean, honestly, my lady just moved to upstate New York. That's like three, four hours away. And he's gonna live a different life, you know, I'm gonna make sure of it. I'm gonna live a different life. I'm gonna get out of the city, you know, turn my life around.

[A]

What are you gonna do, do you think?

[D]

Definitely pick up a trade. I already have my OSHA 30 and my for. I would just call, I believe. Silica. Silica license.

[B]

Okay.

[D]

My safety SST card. I got that, too. I have everything already waiting for me. Just need to pick up a trade.

[A]

So your plan is you'll go there?

[D]

Yeah, I'll go there.

[A]

Live in the suburbs.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

All right.

[C]

Kiss the baby.

[A]

Right there.

[B]

Over here?

[A]

Yeah. Where y' all were eating at over there?

[B]

I want to live in the suburbs, too.

[A]

Oh, boy. Okay, when we come back, we're going to meet another set of parents. Liz and Isaiah.

[B]

Yay, Area ear hustlers.

[A]

We have been teasing a live show in San Francisco for the last few weeks. But until now, we've been quiet on the details.

[B]

Yep. But now we can spill the beans. Drum roll.

[A]

Tickets for Ear Hustle Live in San Francisco go on sale Wednesday, December 17th at noon Pacific Time at earhustlesq.com.

[B]

We'Re so excited to bring our latest live show to our home audience.

[A]

We are going to be at the ACT Tony Rembe Theater, which is a beautiful classic theater in downtown San Francisco. Earlonne, come on. It's gorgeous, right?

[B]

Oh, it is. Tickets are also on sale for dates in Portland, Seattle and la. And for each outside show we do on this tour, we're planning to do a show inside a nearby prison.

[A]

Get all the [e-mail] tour and we hope to see you very soon. And Earlonne, we gotta get those LA tickets going. What's up, my friend?

[B]

We got la la LA coming through. Watch. You know LA ain't gonna fail us.

[A]

Cause we don't wanna have a San Francisco LA rivalry, do we?

[B]

Yes, we do. Dodgers and the Giants. Nyge.

[A]

Mm.

[B]

You heard of Issa Rae, right?

[A]

I have.

[B]

So you know I'm a fan, right? So when I heard that she's on Masterclass, I was excited to check it out and I've been finding it very useful. You know, she got some good advice in there.

[A]

Like what? Share it with me.

[B]

Like, you know, well, our industry, you know, it's all about finding your own voice, you know?

[A]

Yep, yep, yep.

[B]

And that's what Issa Rae's class is about. She talks about developing the confidence to follow her own instinct. Not what other people thought was good or funny, but what she actually liked. Which isn't always easy, right?

[A]

I mean, that's finding her voice. And that's what every artist needs to do. And like you said, Earlonne, it's not easy. So it's really cool to get advice from artists that you respect. And that's what I love about Masterclass. You get to hear from people you really want to learn something from.

[B]

With plans starting at $10 a month, you get unlimited access to over 200 classes taught by famous business leaders, writers, chefs and more. And every new membership comes with a 30 day money back guarantee.

[A]

Masterclass always has great offers during the holidays, sometimes up to as much as 50% off. Head over to masterclass.com earhustle for the current offer.

[B]

That's up to 50% [e-mail] earhustle Masterclass.com earhustle. So, Nigel, we got ourselves some nice gifts from Cozy Earth.

[A]

That we did. And I cannot stop talking about Cozy Earth. Earth's bubble cuddle blanket. Earlonne. It is embarrassed to say this. It's so great to just, like, sit on the couch wrapped up with my grandson, watching a movie, hanging out. It's so cozy.

[D]

I know.

[B]

It is.

[A]

Oh, man. And you also got some pajamas.

[B]

I haven't wore them yet.

[A]

Why? Because they're too nice?

[B]

No, I'm a wear them during the holidays.

[A]

Okay, well, I can tell you I have been wearing mine. So between the bamboo pajamas and that cuddle blanket, I basically don't want to come to work anymore.

[B]

What?

[A]

You know, for me, that's a big deal.

[B]

That's saying something. Hold on. We might have to send this Cozy Earth stuff back. Give the gift of everyday luxury and make every moment comfortable. Head to cozyearth.com and use code EARHUSTLE for up to 20% off. And if you get a post purchase survey, be sure to mention you heard about Cozy Earth right here.

[A]

Give the gift of comfort that lasts beyond the holidays and carries into a cozy new year.

[B]

I'll be cozy in my new year, and I might not come to work.

[A]

Do they know why they're here?

[F]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[F]

Okay.

[B]

Because we didn't know if they did or did.

[A]

Yeah, they.

[C]

They got a synopsis. I actually spoke to Isaiah this morning, so he asked me if I was coming. I'm like, we'll be there.

[A]

He's excited.

[C]

He's like, we're gonna be running around. And I'm like, have at it. I said, you gonna have both of them? So I'm just gonna be sitting to the side, minding my business, and hopefully take a nap because I'm tired. I'm not gonna lie.

[B]

This is Liz. She and her two daughters, along with other moms and their kids, are sitting in a little room near the entryway of the children's Museum, playing with puzzles and Magna tiles and waiting for the announcement that they can head up and see their dads.

[A]

Say Hi.

[G]

Hi.

[A]

Hi, Mr. Your name?

[F]

Nova.

[A]

Nova, I'm Nigel. 2n names Nova and Nigel.

[C]

Nice to meet you.

[F]

Nice to meet you.

[A]

Very nice to meet you. How old are you? Seven. Oh, does that mean you're in first grade?

[F]

No.

[A]

Second.

[B]

Don't be downgrading me.

[A]

Oh, my goodness. I'm sorry. I should know because my grandson is six and he's in first grade.

[B]

You like school?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

What's up?

[A]

Do you like having your picture taken? Yes. May I take your picture? I'm giving you sassy vibes. Very sassy cheese.

[B]

Just like with Ashley. We called Liz on the phone the day before to get to know her a bit.

[A]

Our producer Amy, kicked off the conversation.

[C]

And Earlonne, who are the hosts of Ear Hustles, most of the talking, but we are recording this and I'm really grateful to you for making the time for it. How are you doing? Hi. Morning. I'm doing okay. I'm okay.

[A]

Okay. This was getting off to kind of a rocky start, right, Earlonne? I mean, we knew we had an appointment with her, but it was hard to tell if she actually wanted to talk to us or not. So thank God Amy was there as our buffer.

[C]

Are we catching you at a rough time or is this all feeling a little stressful with the. Well, what's going on? No, it's fine. I just was. Classes is starting, so I was looking at stuff in regards to that.

[B]

Can you identify who you are?

[C]

Okay. My name is Elizabeth McFall. I am the mother of Isaiah Garcia's child, Nigel McFaul. I'm 24 years old. I am a current graduate student at NYU. I am a therapist in training. I am also on the National Foster Youth Institution Board. I'm a big advocate for change when it comes to mainly the youth that are in the foster care system or are juvenile justice involved.

[A]

Liz is a seriously busy woman.

[B]

Yeah. On top of all that stuff she mentioned, she's a single mom to two daughters. One who's seven years old, Nova, who we just heard above, and also Nijah, Liz's three year old.

[C]

I don't wanna be a statistic. Yeah, I got pregnant. I got pregnant at 16, in my junior year of high school. And everybody acted like it was the end of the world, I wouldn't be able to finish high school, you know, or for some reason that once you get pregnant, you were going to keep having babies after that. And it was like, that's not true. You know, let me prove you different. And then after that it was okay. Well, yeah, you managed to graduate, but you won't be able to do nothing. You know, you have to work a job that you don't want to work. I've never worked at nothing against nobody else, but I've never worked at fast food job a day in my life. I went to college straight out of high school, and I just. I have. It's in me to beat the statistic. Like, even with my dad. My dad's been in jail most of my life and he always told me I didn't owe him nothing. But a high school Diploma. And I said, I can do you 10 times better than that. I'll give you a degree. My mindset has kind of been to not only beat the statistics, but to show people like pregnancy or circumstances does not stop life. Like, you have to make the best of your environment. Like, I am a product of my environment, but I'm not the negative product or aspect of my environment.

[B]

The father of Liz's younger daughter, Nyjah, is this dude who's incarcerated on Rikers Island.

[E]

My name is isaiah Garcia. I'm 24.

[A]

And how old were you when you became a father?

[E]

I was 21, 22 when I became a father.

[A]

When you heard the word father or dad, what sorts of images did you have about that?

[E]

My father wasn't never in my life, you know what I'm saying? He's from Trinidad, so he never came to this country. So I'm the oldest of six, so you know what I'm saying? I was like the sort of father figure in my home, so I don't know what a father looked like.

[A]

So when you were growing up, what did you think a dad should be or could be?

[E]

You know, you watch a lot of TV shows and movies, so white picket fence, you know, like, dad, go to work, come home, take the kids places. So I always thought, like, that was, like, a dad, you know what I'm saying? Just being there for the kids, being active in their lives.

[A]

Did you want to have that?

[D]

For sure?

[E]

For sure, yeah.

[A]

And what did you have instead?

[E]

I don't know. When you don't have a father, I guess I didn't know what I was missing because I didn't have it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

All of them.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

You gonna help me?

[E]

You are good. Nice.

[F]

And it's for noodles.

[A]

Even though only Nijah is Isaiah's biological daughter, he was really acting as a dad for both of them on this day. He was very attentive, you know, playing with blocks and climbing on the structures with them and getting them snacks.

[E]

What did you want? This is a brownie.

[A]

Brownie.

[E]

Brownie.

[A]

A chocolate brownie.

[E]

A chocolate brownie. You know it already. Yummy.

[D]

Chocolate.

[C]

Me and Isaiah met in very transitional periods of our lives, Periods where we were very angry and hurt and, like, looking for love wherever we could get it, you know, and just being very bad at the world, essentially, or in survival mode. Isaiah was a punk. He was a street ninja, okay? He was active in the gang life, doing whatever he could, you know, but at the same time, also providing for his siblings. I think the best word to describe Isaiah is changed. He's no longer the Isaiah I met originally, nor am I the same Elizabeth he's met. Like, we've grown in a lot of aspects.

[A]

So do you think that you've changed at the same rate? Like, you're. You're equally in different places now?

[C]

I would say, for me, I had to grow a little faster than he did, and that's only because our daughter is Isaiah's first child. But our daughter is my second child. And for me, I was a teen mom who was also in foster care. So I had no choice but to grow up to be, you know, essentially my own support system, which at one point in time led me to disconnecting from Isaiah. And we would just have this, like, on and off again type of relationship that was essentially. I'm not going to lie, originally, it was just very toxic.

[A]

Liz has worked so hard to get where she is right now, and it seemed to me that she and Isaiah are really in different stages of their lives.

[C]

I knew the potential that Isaiah had, which led me to falling in love with Isaiah's potential. He didn't necessarily treat me as I should have been treated the best, but I always knew he had the potential to be better.

[A]

This is not Isaiah's first time at Rikers. He's been in and out of jail a few times. He was incarcerated when his daughter was born, so he didn't actually meet her until he got out.

[B]

Liz had agreed to bring Nyjah to a playground to meet her dad for the first time.

[E]

We went to, like, a little playhouse thing, and I was playing with her and stuff like that. We was bonding. And then my child's mother said, you know, I'm going to get ice cream real quick. And then she just, like, FaceTimed me. And she was in the Uber. Like, she was in the car. I'm like, where you at? She's like, listen, this is your time. She, like, broke it down. This is your time to be a father. Like, you got it. She just left my daughter with me and said, like, this is your chance. You know, you have to do it. So sooner or later, so just do it now.

[C]

Their connection, like, was kind of automatic. Like, you would have thought he'd been there since day one. Like, this girl just knew who he was. He had made a comment along the lines of like, oh, I wish I could just take her home. And at that point, I'm not gonna lie, I was overstimulated working. And I'm like, you know what? Throw caution to the wind. Why not try it you're here, she's happy, she's comfortable, and essentially like, I trust Isaiah. I know she would be safe with him. So I called my Uber, and me and my 7 year old was running off and we got in the Uber.

[A]

Honestly, what was your reaction?

[E]

I was so shocked. I didn't know what to say. I had a baby.

[B]

She was crying.

[E]

She wanted a mom. I just was standing in. She was 2 at the time, so I was just. Yeah.

[A]

Were you scared?

[E]

I was definitely scared. It was crazy.

[A]

And did the daughter even know you?

[E]

No, that was my first time meeting her. Like, I used to speak to her over phone, but at first she didn't want to speak to me because you know, our kids. She threw a tantrum. She didn't want to speak. Then she finally let me, like, pick her up, and then I just like, you know what? I'm gonna take the train. Because she liked trains. She's like, I'm train. You know, I want to take a train. And then we was on the train, she fell asleep, and I had to carry her to my house. The funniest part, though, is when she woke up, she was shocked because she didn't know where she was.

[A]

How long did you spend with her?

[E]

Probably it was a day because her mother lives in Philadelphia, so she just left.

[F]

What?

[A]

This is getting crazier. Yeah, she brought her to New York and went back to Philadelphia.

[E]

Yeah.

[B]

A leap of faith.

[C]

What he didn't know was I was watching this because first off, no Uber comes fast enough in New York at all. So I was watching this from 5, and Nigel was fine. She was fine for a little bit. And then she did start crying. He was looking around. He called me. He's like, liz, where are you at? But I did say, you got it. You got this module. We're duck behind Ikari, that we're there, and I'm watching and I'm like, he's got it. Then she finally calmed down. I'm like, look, you got this. See, you got it. I watched her for, like, a good 10 minutes, because that's legit. How long it took for the Uber to come.

[A]

And did you have anyone helping you?

[E]

No, no, no. I was by myself. Yeah.

[A]

Did she, like, want to hold your hand or sit on your lap or.

[E]

No, not at first.

[A]

And do you think she did this out of. Well, what was her motivation to do this?

[E]

I was out of her. I was in jail for two and a half years, and she was being a mother by herself.

[D]

So I guess that was.

[A]

And yeah, Was there a little anger in her?

[E]

Probably. Probably. We was when we was messing with each other, like she, me and her wasn't on like the best of terms, you know what I mean? So it was always like tricky that relationship.

[C]

We had a lot of turmoil going on between me and Isaiah. And then, you know, my dad was locked up for 17 years. I always want my daughters to have their fathers. So I decided to extend the last olive branch. It was just like, you either step up now or I'm gone. Like you just won't never have access. Because I believe that an inconsistent parent hurts more than an absent parent.

[A]

So was this plan the therapist in you thinking like, okay, this is going to be a good way to give him the opportunity to step up?

[C]

No, I was overstimulated and I needed a babysitter.

[A]

I love your honesty.

[C]

That was really what it is. I had to be to work at 6am that meant I had to get up at 4, leave out my house by 4 something in order to be to work on time in Manhattan. I gotta take a babysitter wherever it comes. And who the best trust than the father of your child?

[A]

Did you see what Liz did?

[B]

What did she do?

[A]

She handed off the kids and then she took off.

[B]

Where's she at?

[A]

She's ever at the food, as she should.

[B]

Liz, this seems like a.

[D]

This story.

[B]

You've done this before?

[A]

Yeah, funny. Yeah, funny. What?

[C]

Listen, listen, my suggestion is right, next time you listen to me, we get some cots, right? That way I can go take a nap and they on duty.

[A]

I just need some me time, you know, just.

[C]

Just this little, you know, my little suggestion.

[B]

You know, Nige, I think the parent that's not incarcerated does a lot of overtime work.

[A]

Oh yeah. I mean, basically they're single parenting and especially with two kids. So although this visit to the museum is absolutely wonderful, it's also a lot of work for them.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, you know, Liz had to miss a class, take her kids out of school early, get herself all the way from Philadelphia to Manhattan.

[A]

Yeah, it's a huge lift. And for like Jesus and Ashley, who have this really close relationship, they're both getting something tremendous out of it. But for Liz, who has pretty complicated feelings for Isaiah, I don't know, for people who are in that kind of, you know, relationship. I wonder what else the museum could do for those moms.

[B]

Yeah, well, you know, Liz just said, hey, I wish they had a cot somewhere here, quiet, where I can just take a nap.

[A]

I mean, I know she was exhausted, but it was clear this day was also important for her.

[C]

Like, you know, when, when they're all together, they laugh, you know, they interact, you know, they play around. So that's all I want. Like, I. I didn't get that. You know, I got that to up to a certain age with my dad, and then he gone.

[B]

Look.

[C]

Here.

[E]

This is a potato barrel. That's what you want. What is this, a plum? You got two pickles, baby. Get one.

[B]

As you sit here. Now. What. What are you facing?

[E]

Like, oh, a gang of diamonds or conspiracy, you know, bunch of charges, murders and stuff like that. So I'm just here, you know what I'm saying?

[A]

But are you. Can you say how much time you're facing?

[E]

Just probably life.

[A]

Earl. And we just have to stop here for a minute because I think this might go past people. He just said he's facing life. He threw it off like it was nothing.

[B]

I think the only reason we hearing it like that is because he's been living with this for a minute. So it's just another conversation to him. But us, it's jarring. It's like, oh, what.

[A]

How are you thinking about being a dad? If the worst case happens, I'm super.

[E]

Like, I have like a super airtight relationship with God, so I just keep my faith and just, I don't worry at all. You know what I mean?

[A]

Really?

[E]

Yeah.

[A]

Let's say you end up getting 20 years. How do you imagine being a father? Can you be a father?

[E]

I feel like no, to be honest. Like a real answer. I mean, you could try, but I feel like being active, like, physically, there's is like a very important piece of being a father.

[A]

So what is the right thing for a birth father to do in that situation?

[E]

Call. The most you can send letters, pictures. The most you can, you know, just send your daughter stuff to do, like, oh, you do this and I'll do this, or just read her books over the phone. Whatever you could do. Just be as active as you can.

[C]

And let's make a circle.

[D]

Make a circle.

[A]

Now it's time to start. Let's make a circle. Make a circle. Now it's time to start. What's up? Can I ask you just what's happening right now? Oh, it's 20 minutes left. Are you ready to go?

[C]

I've been ready to go.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

My body hurt. I'm tired, and I still got to drive back and there's nothing but rush hour traffic.

[A]

So. He enjoyed it. They enjoyed it.

[C]

It's not about how I feel.

[A]

It's about how to they feel.

[C]

So it's not for me. It's for the kids. I'm just the person that has to bring them. But I. I'm.

[A]

From the looks of it, my co.

[C]

Parents enjoyed his visit, so that's what matters. I just needed a nap.

[A]

Come sit, friends. Come sit.

[B]

Until now, all the families have been kind of playing on their own. But at this point, the mood in the room was starting to shift a little bit. The staff was pulling everyone together for group stuff. Like blowing bubbles and playing this parachute game.

[A]

Yeah, and this was deliberate. I mean, the kids didn't know it yet, but this was the end of the day. So the staff was doing everything they could to end on, like, a peaceful, positive, supportive note, you know, make the transition less painful.

[F]

I think so.

[A]

All right, my friends, we have one more minute. Just one more minute to play. Thank you, daddy.

[D]

You're welcome, baby.

[E]

Mr. Brown, honey, you love it.

[C]

Gotta figure out what it says, and let's go.

[A]

Here, baby.

[C]

He got his bubbles.

[A]

All right, we're gonna bring you guys downstairs. I see you. I see you.

[E]

H.

[B]

For babies like Jesus and Ashley's, you know, they don't really know what's going on exactly.

[A]

But for Isaiah's daughters, it was really tough. And I remember when watching from across the room and Earlonne, that was intentional because it was too hard, I think. I did not want to be in that. Their personal space when that's happening. And, you know, it was like those kids with their little arms stretched out being like, daddy, Daddy, don't leave me. It was crushing. You guys come have a seat. I'll sit down or chat with you for just a minute. So the kids. The kids left. And after that pretty difficult scene, the guys lingered for a little bit. They did a debrief with the staff, and then it was time to get shackled up again. Loaded into the vans for that trip back to Rikers Island.

[B]

Before that, we had a quick check in with Isaiah. So after it's all said and done, man, what are your thoughts? How you feeling? You all right?

[E]

I'm pretty sad. I'm not gonna lie. I feel like I just got torn apart for my daughter. You know what I'm saying? I'm just thinking she young, so she don't really understand the aspect of what's going on. She just feel like I don't want to hang with her, like, after this, you know what I mean? So that's probably the hardest part. But I'm glad I got to see her and play with her. And talk to her. She was telling me, I want to go to your house after this. We going to the park. Like, she has stuff in her mind planned.

[A]

I'm saying, so is it worth doing? Even though it's sad.

[E]

It'S like a yes and no. I really can't.

[A]

You seem to pretty heavy.

[E]

Yeah, it was a lot.

[B]

24 hours later, man. How you feeling?

[D]

Feel good.

[B]

One of the images that stick with me from this day is that moment when the guys were first getting out of the van from Rikers all shackled up, because, you know, they were touching their feet down on a regular sidewalk, you know, and that's. That's a crazy feeling.

[A]

Totally. So the next day we went back to Riker's and saw Jesus and we asked him what that felt like. What was it like walking in all shackled up?

[D]

It wasn't too much of a pleasant feeling, but I know it's precaution, you.

[A]

Know, what do you think people like, if someone's walking by, what do you think they're imagining when they see you?

[D]

Probably the worst. But I'm not even such a bad guy.

[A]

That's true.

[B]

And you've been to all these places before?

[D]

I've never been there before, but I've definitely been in the city before.

[A]

So what sorts of things caught your eye?

[D]

Everything. Seeing other people that don't work in a facility. Just seeing their mannerisms. Like them bringing in groceries and.

[A]

Yeah, what kinds of mannerisms did you notice?

[D]

I seen somebody yelling at their dog, telling them to sit, and I was like, I didn't see that in a while. It was funny.

[A]

When you get out, what do you think the biggest challenges will be for you?

[D]

I mean, last time when I came home, my biggest challenges was just getting used to, I don't know, like, easing up around everybody, like, speaking and stuff like that. Like, you know, in here, I'm kind of like more to myself. I don't really like talking to too many people. I'm not going to engage in conversation at all. Like, really so out there, it's just like basically getting used to starting conversation or something. Like, I'm not really good at that.

[A]

Yeah, that can be hard. Why do you think that is?

[E]

I don't know.

[D]

I guess because you spend so much time here not trying to start conversation with people.

[A]

What's a good way to start a conversation with somebody?

[D]

I mean, I don't know.

[A]

Like, imagine you wanted to start a conversation with one of us.

[D]

I wouldn't know where to start.

[A]

We'll try see what you think it's.

[D]

Like the opening question or the opening statement is just like, not. It's not really there in my mind. It's just always been like that. Yeah, I guess, because before growing up, too, I don't. I didn't really engage in a lot. Like, I don't talk to strangers.

[A]

Is it like a danger thing or not interested?

[D]

It's not a danger thing. I mean, I guess you could say it's not like really, like too much of an interest. I don't feel the need to start conversation with somebody I don't know unless it's beneficial. That's. That sounds bad, but, you know, like, I don't really engage in conversation. That's meaningless.

[A]

So, yeah, I hear what you're saying. How do you know if there's something meaningful there?

[D]

Exactly. And then I'm not so creative. So my opening statement or opening question might be. Be like, completely like something that wouldn't even lead to a conversation that's going to be meaningful.

[A]

One conversation, Starter question. Just one.

[D]

What was everybody's prior situation before this job? You said you did almost close to three decades.

[B]

Correct.

[D]

Incarcerated.

[B]

Correct.

[D]

And you came home and you got into this or.

[B]

No, no, actually, we started this prior to me getting out.

[E]

Out.

[B]

I was. This is. This is literally what got me out. Yeah, I had a life sentence. And once this thing started, it became huge and the governor was like, yeah, I get out of here.

[D]

That's great.

[A]

So.

[B]

And I've been home six years now. A little over six years.

[D]

I know. That feels good, right?

[B]

Oh, it feels. It feels wonderful. It's like watching them uncuff individuals. I say, man, that shit's still eerie. It's still hard to see that shit because I was there. I was in line, just like that. So it's still a little uncomfortable.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, and I walk into prisons a lot nowadays. I think walking into prisons for me is more of a reality check to keep myself in check.

[D]

Yeah, definitely.

[A]

Okay, you did great. So now start a conversation with me.

[D]

What was your occupation prior to this, to this job?

[A]

I'm a professor.

[D]

Okay. Professor is in college. Right, of course. So what classes were you teaching in college?

[A]

So I'm also a visual artist, and so I was teaching photography how to use cameras, how to think about making pictures, and also about the history of photography. But the thing I'm really interested in is teaching people about how photography is a tool for understanding yourself and the world around you and how to kind of investigate your own curiosity and learn more about yourself. So when you were telling me about the. The people that you saw on the street and the little details that you noticed, I was thinking, oh, those would make interesting photographs, things that. That caught your eye. So I thought, well, he's actually more interested in details and he has more curiosity than he's letting on. So that's what all those things said to me about you.

[D]

What about Amy? What did you do prior to this job?

[A]

I worked on a different podcast about venture capital. Do you know it's, like, when people invest in businesses so that they'll, like, make a bunch of money, and they're trying to pick the businesses that they think will do well.

[D]

Oh, that's cool.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

All right, well, I'll see you guys again.

[B]

It'll be nice. But definitely, when you step out the penitentiary, look us up.

[A]

This is the last episode of the series, and I like going out on this Jesus tape because it was such a sweet interaction. Earlonne. I don't think we've ever had an interview, I don't know, like, take a turn like this before talking about how.

[B]

To start a conversation.

[A]

Yeah, it was so sweet. I felt like he was really opening up.

[B]

You know, Nigel, that's what we do. We peel people open, you know, expose their feelings.

[A]

I don't know. There was part of that interaction or along with him that made me feel sad, because part of what we do is we go in and we have these, in some ways, intimate engagements with people, and then we leave. And that became more apparent to me in this particular series because when we're at San Quentin or even at the women's prison, we go back there all the time, and so we always are running into people. But in this situation, we were traveling across the country.

[B]

It's a series, Nigel.

[A]

We were gonna leave. We were gonna leave.

[B]

I think they know that, though, Nigel, that this might be it. But, you know, that's the game.

[A]

Do you really think they know that?

[B]

I mean, we didn't know them prior to walking in there.

[A]

No, it's true. But there was something with Jesus that was a little. Heartbreaking's a little too. But that really, I guess, would pull that my heart, you know, when he asked if he was gonna see us again at that moment, I really felt a stab, because I want to. And I think about it and I wonder about how to make it happen. I'd love to know if Jesus is continuing his curiosity about how to start conversations. I wonder if that's changed anything in him. I would love to listen to this episode with him. And his lady and Isaiah and Liz and hear their response to it. But I think you and I both know it's pretty unlikely. And sometimes, I guess it makes me feel melancholy at what we do.

[B]

I don't know. I don't know if I'd be feeling that way. You know, I think I feel more like, okay, we're here to low key. Shine a light in a dark place.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I think maybe we probably not gonna see these cats again, but we gonna do our best to make this episode a cool story.

[A]

I really hope those small moments we had with Jesus and actually with all the kids from Drama Club, like Tommy, the two Yayas, Keisha, that those moments have a positive impact on them. And I hope what Josie, you know, the founder of Drama Club, said, you know, is something we can believe in, that the ephemeral interactions really are valuable. But what if it's not true, Earlonne? What if it's something we just really want to believe? And I don't know, I worry that actually maybe we're going to be just two more people in the lives of these young incarcerated folks that have let them down somehow.

[B]

You quote Josie, I'll quote Caesar. It's all about the attempt.

[A]

Thank you. Thank you.

[B]

One last thing before we go. Our final count time of the season from San Quentin.

[A]

This is a really neat annual tradition. People from the outside come in, and they and a bunch of incarcerated guys go caroling from building to building.

[C]

Good evening, everyone, and God bless you and welcome again to our annual Christmas caroling event.

[G]

Paula Bates has been coming to San Quentin for over 20 years now to do Christmas carols.

[A]

All right, let's go through our first song.

[G]

Paula was standing on the stage leading everyone, having them practice and warm up.

[A]

Here we go. Ready? 1, 2, 1, 2, 3. Say, go tell it.

[G]

She started with go tell it on.

[A]

The mountain.

[G]

And it was a little rough. Paula kindly shushed everyone and gave them a little lesson.

[B]

Okay, that's right.

[A]

Go.

[C]

Everybody do that.

[A]

Okay?

[C]

I need you to come on down.

[A]

Just go. Go.

[C]

That sounds wonderful.

[A]

If you stay right there, we will be batting a thousand. Okay, ready? One, two, three.

[E]

And.

[G]

So after 30 minutes, we walk outside of the chapel, and we're like, we're finally doing this. We're going. We're caroling. So we start walking outside. There's about 40 of us, 15 outside people, the rest incarcerated. And they say, we're going to go to the ac, the Adjustment center, which is now called the Restrictive Housing Unit. I mean, if they're going to go to the Academy. That's really cool. I've never been in there. Paula's walking backwards, leading everyone. We walk up to the AC and they're not going to let us in. So we just sang right there outside.

[A]

We sing it every year. Joy to the world. Joy to the world.

[D]

The singing so bad that we about.

[B]

To go to the hole.

[A]

They should put the yard down.

[E]

We all going.

[B]

We all get 115s. Everybody getting the writer. It's bad.

[D]

All right.

[A]

We wish you a merry Christmas we.

[B]

Wish you a merry Christmas we wish.

[G]

You a merry Christmas so after the alarm, we got back up saying, we wish you a merry Christmas, and walked ourselves over to north block. So the plan for the evening was that we're going to stop at each housing unit and do some caroling. When we get into a housing unit, we walk to about the middle of the building. We just start singing. Once you start singing, that's when people stop and start looking over the tiers and you can only see their heads leaning over the bars because of how tall it is, all five tears up. Some were annoyed, but not many. Some of the officers stand up like, what's happening? We would sing about three songs on one side of the long, narrow warehouse and then walk to the other side of the building and do the same over there. And then we would leave. As we sing. As we leave. I've been at San Quentin building on six years. This is my fifth time hearing this. And before, I was kind of annoyed, and I was like, why do these people come in here to do this?

[B]

Wish your merry Christmas.

[G]

My experience this year was different. It was really nice. It was wholesome. It was joyful. I couldn't stop smiling. This is Tony Toya reporting from south block for Ear Hustle.

[B]

Being that it took us a long time, many years, to pull this episode together, there are a lot of people that we have to thank.

[A]

Oh, there sure are. Okay. Starting with our friends from the Children's Museum of Manhattan, Deva Shub and Leslie Bruchara, and all the staff that made this visiting program possible. So we met Leslie and Deva and some other people at that Aspen Ideas Festival a couple years ago. And that's where the conversation started. So you know what, Earlonne? A good reason to travel and meet people.

[B]

Yes. And getting permission to take a bunch of microphones into Rikers isn't easy.

[A]

No, it's not.

[B]

So we got a gang of people to thank at the New York State Department of Corrections, but we won't be saying their titles because it's just too many. We'll put that on the website.

[A]

Okay. So big thanks to Patrick Gallahue, Anais Morales, Latima Johnson and Ann Penson. And Annie, keep running those marathons. I love seeing the pictures of your running outfits, so inspire me. Totally.

[B]

And also Douglas Shore. Hope that flat tire isn't acting up again. Hope you got a new one by now.

[A]

I'm never going to forget that.

[B]

Jessica Medard and Betty Malicio the first.

[A]

Five episodes of this series featured many helpful folks at Crossroads Juvenile center in Brooklyn. Big thanks to all of you and also of course, our friends at Drama Club.

[B]

One more name to get in there. Nyge.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

The homegirl, Kat Gun.

[A]

Yes. Thank you Kat.

[E]

Whew.

[B]

This series took a whole village, actually.

[A]

An entire city, right? There's so many people that we're thankful for for making this happen. Amazing as always. Thank you to the administrations at San Quentin Rehabilitation center, the California Institution for Women and the Central California Women's Facility for their ongoing support of our work and opic. Ooh. Opec. Thank you opec. Thank you Earlonne.

[B]

Music for this episode is by Darrell Sadiq Davis, David Jassy, Antwan Williams, Bruce Wallace.

[A]

And for full credits and more information about this episode, check out our show notes on Ear Hustle's website, earhustlesq.com Ear.

[B]

Hustle receives support from the Just Trust building a smaller, more humane engine of justice and safety across the country.

[A]

Ear Hustle is a proud member of Radiotopia from prx, a network of independent, creator owned, listener supported podcasts.

[B]

Discover Audio with visionadiotopia fm.

[A]

I'm Nigel Poor.

[B]

I'm Earlonne Woods. Thanks for listening. Radiotopia.

[A]

From prx.