The Loop Ep. 2: Who What Where

Summary

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Ear Hustle: The Loop Episode 2 – "Who What Where"

Date: October 22, 2025
Hosts: Nigel Poor & Earlonne Woods
Podcast: Ear Hustle / Radiotopia

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Overview

In the second episode of "The Loop," Nigel and Earlonne pull back the curtain on the day-to-day reality at Crossroads, a juvenile detention facility in New York. Building on their previous work inside San Quentin, they explore life for both incarcerated youth and the adults who work with them, delving into unwritten rules, everyday routines, the fragile dance of trust, and the complex relationships that shape this closed world. The episode focuses particularly on their efforts to win trust and the unintended impact outsiders and well-meaning programs can have in such sensitive spaces.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Arrival and Reality at Crossroads

[02:17–03:23]

• Nigel and Earlonne describe arriving at Crossroads, a "juvenile jail for young people," explaining its physical and emotional atmosphere.
  • “It’s not just Crossroads they’re dealing with. ...Some kids here aren’t going home for a really long time, and some kids are just in limbo.” (Nigel, 02:58)
• The facility is full of official and unofficial rules that shape how kids and staff interact.

2. Tour of Crossroads – Surveillance and Structure

[05:20–07:59]

• The hosts are shown around by a high-level administrator. The building is described as institutional, drab, and eerily quiet despite being full.
• Security routines are strict, making even their interactions brief and highly controlled.
• Educational requirements: Crossroads youth must attend school until 18, with available diploma/GED paths.
  • "Crossroads is about three stories high. It’s built around a central courtyard area. And it feels very institutional. Drab colors. It’s kind of noisy, and sound bounces off the walls." (Earlonne, 05:47)

3. The Staff: YDS (Youth Development Specialist) Perspective

[08:05–11:08]

• Two YDS staff, T. Wright and Charles, discuss their backgrounds and roles, the emotional demands, and the balancing act required—part authority, part mentor.
  • "You gotta be able to keep things in line, but they also have to be, you know, a big brother, big sister type of person." (Earlonne, 07:51)
• Kids often put on "masks" to earn street credit, display toughness, and protect themselves; staff are aware of this and must constantly interpret behavior.
  • "A lot of kids is wearing masks because they have to put on a show for the kids that’s watching..." (YDS T. Wright, 09:50)

4. Unofficial Rules and Trust

[12:05–16:18]

• Residents are divided by halls, kept strictly separated to prevent conflict (often based on gangs).
• The hosts’ entry into a residential hall, initiated by staff, becomes an unspoken breach of resident privacy. Kids are at first wary, but open up, offering a rare view into their daily lives and rooms.
  • "I definitely felt that we were getting to see something we’d never seen before, a sense of how these kids actually live." (Nigel, 13:36)
• Kids’ rooms are small but personalized; toothpaste doubles as glue for pictures.
  • "This is where all the thinking goes on. ...This is where everything happens." (Tommy, 14:35)

5. Drama Club, Setbacks, and the Fallout of Breaking Social Codes

[17:16–24:53]

• After the visit, drama club participation drops. The kids hold a meeting, feeling the visit was a violation—made worse by a recent cell-search and tension around trust.
  • “Trust had been broken.” (Cesar, 23:23)
• Program staff discuss how critical trust and rapport are, and how quickly they can be disrupted.

6. Navigating Trust: Hosts Reflect

[25:19–26:49]

• Nigel and Earlonne acknowledge that unlike San Quentin, where they’re veterans, their unfamiliarity at Crossroads means every move impacts not just themselves but their partners (the Drama Club) and the kids.

7. Tommy’s Story: Shifting Persona, Emotional Fallout

[27:09–33:16]

• In a follow-up, Tommy admits kids value privacy; after the visit, he faced some social fallout but ultimately minimized it.
  • "You should know we like our privacy. But I didn’t think nothing of it until after y’ all left." (Tommy, 27:39)
• Tommy becomes increasingly withdrawn after a bad day in court, embodying the strain and confusion many youth experience as their realities catch up with them.
• YDS Landry describes guiding Tommy, urging him to see he’s more than his persona, and how harsh court outcomes can leave young people emotionally devastated.
  • "There’s another part to you... There’s going to be times you may feel you need to be this, but there’s another part of you the world needs to see more of." (Landry, 30:45)
• The youth’s “magical thinking” about going home quickly collides with reality, requiring delicate staff intervention to balance optimism and truth.

8. The Emotional Toll on Staff

[35:46–39:40]

• Staff like Landry describe forming deep, almost parental bonds with youth—sometimes being the only support when kids process regret and loss.
  • "I’ve had those ones be in the room... and how they wish they could take that moment back. Crying... chest to the face of my chest." (Landry, 35:11)
• The work is grueling—long hours, missed family time—but for some, worth the cost.
  • "I will say first and foremost, adequate time with my child." (Landry, 38:43)

9. Institutional Challenges: Contraband and Corruption

[40:21–45:34]

• News breaks that five YDS staff were caught smuggling contraband (drugs, phones, weapons) into Crossroads.
  • "If some of the counselors... had got swept up in this, what would you be thinking?" (Nigel, 40:45)
• Staff explain that some coworkers may have been coerced out of fear, becoming complicit to maintain safety, which erodes discipline and modeling for youth.
  • "They do that out of fear. ...After a while, it becomes addicting." (YDS Hamilton, 42:04)
• A sense of betrayal and heightened risk for everyone, as weapons are involved.
  • "You provided the weapon for him to do [harm]." (Landry, 44:15)
• Contraband undermines staff authority, blurring lines between youth and adult, sabotaging efforts to build respect.

10. Reflection: The Responsibility of Outsiders

[45:53–46:42]

• The hosts openly wrestle with whether their presence is always a good thing; their effect on youth is real, unpredictable, and not always positive.
  • “And we were part of that adult mix, and we are certainly having an effect on the lives of the kids. And I’m not sure it was always for the better.” (Nigel, 46:21)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On masks and survival:

  “A lot of kids is wearing masks because they have to put on a show for the kids that’s watching... It looks like he’s giving us a hard time, but... ‘I gotta do this. I don’t want to do this.’”
  – YDS T. Wright, [09:50]

• On the impact of harsh reality:

  "What you’re noticing is the reality of the case setting in and wearing on him... All of those things are kind of creating the narrative to where you’re just understanding that things are maybe a little bit more bleaker than you thought."
  – Landry, [32:13]

• On broken trust:

  "Trust had been broken."
  – Cesar, [23:23]

• On the emotional work of YDS staff:

  "I’ve had those ones be in the room and talking to me about the regret for what they feel like they’ve done and how they wish they could take that moment back. Crying... chest of the face of my chest. You don’t want nobody to see you cry. That’s fine, but it be like that."
  – Landry, [35:11]

• On being outsiders:

  "We are certainly having an effect on the lives of the kids. And I’m not sure it was always for the better."
  – Nigel, [46:21]

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Additional Segments

11. "Count Time": Garden at San Quentin

[47:23–50:29]

• Brief, restorative audio segment features a calm garden within San Quentin, contrasting the institutional feel of Crossroads. The garden is a rare place of beauty, reflection, and remembrance for both staff and residents.

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Arrival at Crossroads, Discussion of Rules: [02:17–03:23]
• Tour, Security, and School: [05:20–07:59]
• Staff Roles & Philosophy: [08:05–11:08]
• Residential Halls, Division by Conflict: [12:05–16:18]
• Drama Club Fallout, Broken Trust: [17:16–24:53]
• Reflections on Trust & Unwritten Codes: [25:19–26:49]
• Tommy’s Story of Change: [27:09–33:16]
• Emotional Toll on Staff: [35:46–39:40]
• Contraband Scandal: [40:21–45:34]
• Hosts' Reflections: [45:53–46:42]
• Count Time Garden Segment: [47:23–50:29]

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Episode Tone & Concluding Thought

The episode maintains Ear Hustle’s signature directness, warmth, and balance of empathy and humor, while holding space for the system’s complexities. Nigel and Earlonne’s rapport—with each other, staff, and the kids—is candid, sometimes tender, sometimes uneasy, but always deeply human. Their vulnerability about the limits of journalism and the risks of intervention highlights the ongoing challenge of bearing witness without causing unintended harm.

Final Reflection:
At Crossroads, everyone is figuring out who they are and who they have to be—whether kid, staff, or outsider. Respect, trust, and identity are always under negotiation; every act has consequences in the loop.

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Transcript

[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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[B]

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[A]

I'm Corey Thomas, who co founded the San Quentin Film Festival along with Rahsaan, New York Thomas. We're getting ready for our festival October 23rd and 24th. The following episode of Ear Hustle contains explicit language. Please be advised this may not be for every listener.

[B]

Yeah, this is it right here on this side.

[A]

Is it?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

So we.

[B]

It's the right place. Yeah, it's the right place. We are pulling up to Crossroads.

[A]

This is it.

[B]

What is this building?

[A]

Huh?

[D]

What kind of building is this?

[B]

This is a juvenile detention. Like a juvenile hall. A juvenile jail for the young people. Oh, jail. Yeah. All right. Thank you very much.

[A]

There was this moment in the last episode where Cesar was talking about how drama club is just this one tiny part of a kid's week at Crossroads. Remember that? And how it can be hard for them to shift back to the reality of being stuck in this place.

[B]

It's not just Crossroads they're dealing with. You know, it's the reality of their lives and what's ahead for them. Some kids here aren't going home for a really long time, and some kids are just in limbo. They don't know what's ahead.

[A]

So that made us want to know more about life at Crossroads, outside of Drama Club. Like what it's like to live there, to work there. What are the rules of the place? The unofficial rules and the official ones.

[B]

That's what we decided to do. And it didn't always go smoothly.

[A]

No, it didn't. I'm Nigel Poor.

[B]

I'm Earlonne woods. And this is the Loop, a new series from ear hustle and PRX's Radiotopia.

[A]

Rule number one. Who, what? Where?

[D]

A door, a locked door that I can't open. That's the first thing I always see.

[A]

I call it baby jail. Like, this is baby jail.

[D]

You could come to jail.

[A]

Cause it's easy, right?

[B]

But to get out is hard.

[A]

It's very hard to get out. It's.

[D]

How do I put it? Survival arrest. I was surviving, and in the course of me surviving, I got arrested.

[B]

Survival arrest. Gentlemen, gentlemen.

[A]

With improv, you could do anything. And there's, like, nobody could laugh at you. There's no right or wrong answer. Like, I could be a cowgirl if I want to. Like, you know, nobody's gonna look at me weird. I'm so fucking tired. I don't know. Today was really demoralizing to me.

[B]

You know, we're on a constant loop. This loop never ends. I don't think it's gonna end. You going, well.

[A]

That'S the same lady.

[B]

And after a few visits, we were getting better, with the whole song and dance of getting through security at Crossroads.

[A]

Yep. Put all your stuff in a locker, sign the book, put your chapstick in.

[B]

Your pocket, shoes in the bin, walk through the metal detector.

[A]

Then you had to lift up your foot to have it wanded.

[B]

Yeah, they don't want you to slide nothing through the metal detector.

[A]

And then we'd go straight to this little office and pretty much stay there all day, you know? We still felt like we hadn't really seen the place.

[B]

But on this day, something happened that felt like a minor breakthrough. One of the staff, a high level administrator, agreed to show us around the joint. That's her with those heels clicking down the hallway. Click, clack, click clack.

[A]

See, I'm learning so much. Can we just take a walk through the school first?

[B]

Crossroads is about Three stories high. It's built around the central courtyard area. And it feels very institutional. Drab colors. It's kind of noisy, and sound bounces off the walls.

[A]

Yeah. And it feels kind of empty, even though it's not. And I think that's because you don't really see kids walking around. The hallways are pretty quiet. But then you'd pass by one of those areas where the kids live, and there would be a door with a window in it. And sometimes there would be kids, like, all pressed up against it, trying to get our attention. And it was kind of awkward. Like, I wasn't sure if we were supposed to wave or smile or sort of ignore them.

[B]

I smiled, I waved. Like, what up? I mean, you know, they probably see the same faces all the time, and we were something different. Plus, we got all this equipment. Microphones, recorders. You know, they probably wondering, who is this? The news?

[A]

So first we went to a part of a building that's used as a school.

[B]

Thank you. The classrooms were pretty small. Had a few desks in them, a whiteboard, and that's pretty much about it.

[A]

It's quiet today. It's very quiet. So everyone needs to finish school. Yeah, we're getting to the end of the school day.

[B]

Kids at Crossroads are required to attend school until they're 18. They can get their high school diplomas, or GEDs.

[A]

This is the GED testing room. In 2017, a law was passed called Raise the Age. Before that law, kids as young as 16 or 17 who were arrested could be sent to Rikers.

[B]

Raise the Age made it so that instead of getting sent to Rikers, these kids would go to a facility designed to deal with youth offenders, a facility like Crossroads.

[A]

So that makes the staff at these places a really interesting combination. They're part correctional officer, but they're also like counselors, therapists, kind of like mentors. It's this combination of qualities that I don't think you really find that often at an adult prison.

[B]

Yeah, it's different to being a correctional officer. You know, they gotta be able to keep things in line, but they also have to be, you know, a big brother, big sister type of person.

[A]

Kind of soft, but also Stern.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Hi, Mr. Wright. How are you?

[B]

On the tour, we ran into a staff named T. Wright. He's a youth development specialist, also known as yds, and he agreed to come.

[A]

Sit down with us for an interview along with a friend of his, another yds. Do you guys get along?

[E]

That's my dog.

[A]

Okay. All right. Okay, that's good. That's a good sign. But let's just start by having you both introduce yourselves.

[E]

I'm Yds T. Wright. I'm ys Charles.

[B]

How long y' all been working here?

[E]

I've been working here for. I just made three years in April. I've been working here for five years and a couple months.

[A]

How would you describe him? Like, his personality? Charles? Yeah. What's his personality? Like?

[E]

Great person to work with. Don't get on his bad side. He's the calm one out of the crew. Like, he's very. Like, nothing bothers him. Like, if you see him upset and something really got him there.

[A]

I'm recognizing this relationship. This is like our relationship.

[E]

Okay. I grew up probably four blocks away from here, Rockaway and Atlantic. I remember the jail being built. It was supposed to be a school district. That's what the neighborhood was saying. Like, this is going to be the school. But it ended up being in jail. My dream job was to be a correction officer. I didn't make it to correction officer. I made it to a youth development specialist. When I did get the interview, they told me that I'll be a correctional officer without a gun.

[B]

When you see individuals youngsters do, it seem like most of them are wearing masks. Like they're trying to be something that they're not trying to be harder than they are.

[E]

One thing about these youth, they love their gang that they a part of. They want to be a part of a family that accepts them. A lot of kids is wearing masks because they have to put on a show for the kids that's watching, right? So it looks like he's giving us a hard time, but yeah, grab him. And he'd be like, listen, I gotta do this. I don't want to do this.

[B]

The YDS's need to understand that kids have to make a name for themselves in here. You know, I remember doing that myself. Cause we was turned up in those youth facilities. We were trying to be bigger than ourselves. I mean, you know, you want a certain respect, right? And you don't want anyone to challenge that. You know, you want them to know that you ain't with none of the bullshit. We can get down right now if you feel that way, right? And it wasn't just there, you know, we knew that when we left and got transferred somewhere else or got sent home. And that reputation would follow us. You know, people would be like, man, earlonne. Or rather, they'd be like, emac was with the business. The homie's a fool.

[A]

So that's a Good thing the homie's a fool.

[B]

That's an honorable thing.

[A]

Okay, so was that how you wanted to be, or was it that you had to seem that way to protect yourself and keep up the reputation?

[B]

I mean, you don't necessarily want to be starting trouble, especially with the staff, you know, but all eyes are on you. Sometimes people build themselves up so big that that's the expectation.

[A]

Hu, that reminds me of Tommy.

[B]

Yeah, we met him in the last episode.

[A]

Like a lot of kids here, Tommy was active in a gang. When he was on the streets, he told us that getting arrested probably saved his life.

[E]

So when I first met Tommy, I mean, I thought Tommy was this kid from the Bronx, a lot of tattoos, rough life. He looked a lot tougher than what he really is. Right. So I realized the reason he looked that way is to cover up how he really is inside.

[B]

After we left the school area, we started heading towards the library where the drummer club classes take place. As we're walking, we pass one of the residential halls.

[A]

And each of these halls houses, I don't know, like, 20 kids or something.

[B]

And the halls are a big deal here because they're the main way the staff keep kids apart who are likely to have conflict with each other, like because of gang affiliations or anything else.

[A]

And really strict measures are taken to ensure that the halls never mix. Like, even when walking from one class to another, which is part of the reason why movement here is so restricted. And Earlonne, it takes forever. As we were walking, we passed by one of those residential halls where the kids live. And the woman who was giving the tour said, you guys want to step onto the hall? Sure, yeah.

[B]

And we didn't want to turn that down, so we was like, sure. We walked into the residential hall. It's a big day room, and along the perimeter are all these doors leading to individual kids rooms.

[A]

And at this point, no one was actually in their rooms. They were just milling around this common area. There were a couple small tables with staff sitting at them.

[B]

The staff was interacting with them, playing games like cards, dominoes.

[A]

Yeah, tossing Yahtzee. They're playing Yahtzee. Guys are just playing games, sitting around. Those of you who have not met are friends from Ear Hustle. You're welcome to introduce yourselves. And Earlonne, I can't say that we had the warmest welcome, at least not at first. People were kind of glancing side eyed at us, but I definitely felt that we were getting to see something we'd never seen before, a sense of how these kids actually live.

[B]

And they did warm up eventually. Cause I remember a couple of them was telling me that they had been locked up for a few months, maybe a year. And when I told them I did 27 years, they were like, what?

[C]

What?

[A]

What? Yeah, I think you scared them.

[B]

I recognized this one kid, Malik, who we'd met at drama club on our last visit. Didn't you meet Malik? You in a drama club?

[A]

Right?

[B]

Are you?

[F]

I was.

[A]

Okay, what do you mean, was you down and going back? You want to go back? You can go back. I was really curious what the kids rooms looked like. I wonder if we can peek into somebody's room.

[B]

And I think that's when you spotted Tommy. Turned out this was his home. And he was like, sure, I'll show you my room.

[A]

Okay, we're going to go see Tommy's room right now. Are you the tenants that you are?

[B]

It's real estate.

[D]

Yeah, tell me about it, right?

[B]

It's real estate. Yeah.

[D]

But this is where it all goes down. This is where all the thinking goes on. Everything. It's where everything happens.

[B]

This room was bigger than what I remembered from juvenile hall. I mean, I'd say it was about maybe eight by eight, something like that, you know? And inside, of course, it had a bed, it had bookshelves, it had a desk, but no toilet.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, honestly, it kind of reminded me of a small college dorm room.

[D]

As you can see, this is where most people put their pictures and stuff. So this is where I put my pictures right here. This is the window. This window's blocked out with a lot.

[A]

Of toothpaste, toothpaste, earlonne toothpaste was everywhere on the wall.

[B]

Hey, that's the prison glue. Everybody do that. You know, they put toothpaste on the back of pictures because they don't give you tape.

[A]

Right?

[D]

So that's who. See all of this? It's all toothpaste. Cause this is what we use to hang up our pictures. I'll show you all your clothes here, all your products. I'm not technically, you're not supposed to have all these products, but I have a lot of hair and I like to take showers daily. So I have a lot of products to keep up for myself. But this is the tour of the room. This is really it. There's nothing special about it.

[B]

Tommy sounds happy to have company here.

[A]

Totally. It was really fun to be there with him, you know, like when anyone's excited to show you their place, it's infectious.

[B]

Tommy hadn't been at Crossroads all that long, and he was Pretty much getting situated.

[A]

Does it feel like your room now?

[D]

It doesn't ever feel like mine because I've been so much places, so I know what's like the possibility that I can get moved any day, go anywhere any day. It's different. But this is pretty much straightforward.

[B]

End date.

[G]

End date.

[A]

Well, thank you for the tour. Thanks. Come in.

[B]

Appreciate it.

[A]

Appreciate you. Outside Tommy's room, in the day room, we ran into Cesar. He's one of the drama club teachers. Oh, there's Cesar.

[B]

Hi there.

[F]

Good.

[G]

Good to see you.

[A]

Good to see you.

[G]

See you guys.

[A]

Drama club was about to start, so Cesar was here to round up the kids who wanted to join. All right, so Cesar's here collecting people to go to drama club.

[B]

N. You and I were asking kids, are you going to attend drama club today? Are you. Are you.

[A]

Are you going? No, he's not going to drama club.

[B]

What else is going to do?

[H]

Just my age. Just Mike.

[B]

Just Mike all the time.

[A]

Are you going back to drama club? You're not going to go anywhere? Okay. See you in a little bit.

[B]

All right.

[G]

You guys are ready?

[A]

Yeah.

[G]

We're going to go over to the library across. Across the hall. Let me go say hi to these guys.

[A]

Cesar walked us out of the residential hall and into that little library where the classes take place. Okay. We're walking into the. I guess this is the same place we were library. It smells different. It's a little bit sweeter. These are the heavy chairs.

[B]

These are the chairs called bricks where if, say, a fight breaks out, they can't be picked up and thrown at anyone. Oh, yeah. We are in here with the heavy chairs. Ain't no moving ease.

[A]

Cesar came in with us and we all sat down.

[G]

How was it when you first walked in? That was your first time in the housing area?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. How are you?

[A]

I was. I mean, I was interested to see it. Tommy gave us a tour of his room, which was great. It's a little hard for me to read the guys. I can't tell if they're interested or if they're like, what are you doing here?

[G]

Yeah, they're very guarded.

[A]

Yeah.

[G]

Second I walked in, I felt some tension. I was like, okay, yeah, you guys need to be.

[A]

Yeah.

[G]

Brought back in. Okay. But that's part of the reason I went in, just to check in with all the guys with the temperature is.

[A]

Yeah. Erlon, this was a little cryptic.

[B]

Yeah. I didn't know what this was about. Cesar told us to chill in there for a while and that he'd be right back.

[G]

I'll be right back.

[A]

So we turned the recorder off.

[B]

I'm gonna stop this one.

[A]

Yeah. And waited actually a pretty long time.

[B]

About 45 minutes later, Cesar came back in and with the recorder off, explained what was going on.

[A]

And we were like, whoa. Didn't see that coming.

[B]

That day, Tommy didn't show up for drummer. He had seemed excited about it, but I guess something changed in his mind.

[A]

We wanted Caesar to explain what had happened on the record. So the next time we were in New York, he agreed to talk with us.

[B]

We'll hear that after the break.

[A]

Nigel here with earlonne to tell folks about a new podcast that asks the question, what can cheating scandals teach us about the world?

[B]

Patrick Redford has spent his career writing about rule breakers, and now he's taking it to a podcast called Only if youf Get Caught.

[A]

Coming up on Only if youf Get Caught. Why did the WNBA hand out its largest ever fine to an owner for letting his players fly private?

[B]

What does the Varsity Blues admission scandal say about the future of higher education?

[A]

And what can the Lance Armstrong saga teach us about the anti trans panic?

[B]

Only if you get caught. From Defector Media and Radiotopia, out October 21st. Wherever you get your podcasts.

[A]

This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp.

[B]

October 10th is World Mental Health Day. And this year, BetterHelp is saying thank you, thank you, therapists.

[A]

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[B]

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That'S betterhelp.com earhustle listeners. Do you want even more Ear Hustle.

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[A]

Our Ear Hustle plus episodes are really fun. Subscribers can find out what's happening with people they've heard on previous episodes, and they can also send in questions for us to answer.

[B]

And me and Nigel get to sit here and chop it up with our Producer Bruce, and just. Just talk about whatever.

[A]

If you want to hear more of that, subscribe to ear [e-mail] or directly in Apple Podcasts.

[B]

And thanks for supporting the show. We appreciate y'.

[H]

All.

[B]

And send in some provocative questions, spicy.

[A]

Questions, to back up. Last time we were at Crossroads, we'd been given a tour of one of the residential halls where some of the boys live, including our friend Tommy.

[B]

According to Caesar, visiting that residential hall caused some major drama. We went inside of Crossroads one day without y', all, and it became a big issue. Can you. Can you elaborate on that a little bit?

[G]

Yeah, there's a few things. I had come in, and when I came in, somebody had mentioned that Ear Hustle was inside, and I didn't. I didn't know. I was fine. That was fine. And then One of the PCs says, yeah, they're inside the housing unit.

[B]

A PC is a program coordinator, another type of staff here.

[G]

And I was like, okay, well, how do you feel about that? And then the PC said, I'm upset. The kids are upset. And I was like, okay, well, how did they get there? And they were like, oh, you know, Ear Hustle had interviewed Tommy. I was like, what would you like to do? And then she was like, let's try and get them off the hall. So I went in, and I saw you guys there, and we brought you guys to the library, and then I went back inside. And before I even went inside, they had a meeting at a powwow, right? Not the. Not the YDSS or the PC, but the boys amongst themselves. They had a meeting because trust had been broken.

[B]

So what I was starting to put together here was that the kids felt like someone had violated one of the unspoken rules of their hall.

[A]

And it sounded like maybe these kids were already on edge.

[G]

Now, the day before, apparently there was a search, and they flipped everything out because one of the kids had a phone or something like that, was posting it on social media. So they were already on edge. They were already on their toes.

[B]

What he's saying here is that this hall where the kids live had been thoroughly searched by staff just a day before because one of the kids had an illegal cell phone.

[A]

And the kids were apparently kind of concerned that maybe we were part of that operation.

[B]

And on top of that, it seemed like this visit had actually made things harder for Drama Club, the very people who had invited us into Crossroads to begin with.

[G]

And then when I went in, finally after their powwow, I talked to all the boys. I was like, how you guys feeling? And nobody wanted to do Drama Club. They're like, wait, is Ear Hustle going to be there? And I was like, yeah. And they're like, nah, we're not going. I talked a few of them into it, and I had apologized to the group about their space being infiltrated. I use that word because I felt like that's where their mind was at the time, given how they were feeling. Right. The equipment's not something they see every day. I'm going inside of the actual room. It felt invasive for them.

[A]

And what was the trust that got broken?

[G]

I think it comes down to rapport. Right. Your ability to know somebody, their ability to trust you, your word, your intentions. And the rapport wasn't with you with Ear Hustle and the Kids.

[A]

E, this is the kind of thing we never really have to think about at San Quentin. I mean, we know that place so well. Everybody knows us. And I've been going in for almost.

[B]

15 years, and I lived there for seven. You know, we know the rules, written and unwritten. We've earned people's trust there. And at Crossroads, we hadn't done that yet.

[A]

Totally. And since no one knew us, anything we did reflected on Drama Club because they had vouched for us. And I totally understand this. I mean, if. If we invited someone into San Quentin and they broke the rules, written or otherwise, it can jeopardize our whole program. And Earlonne, to be honest, I would be upset, too.

[G]

It's one thing to go in by yourself. It's another thing to go in with equipment and go in with, like, an ACS admin head.

[B]

He's referring to the person who brought us in, a high level staff member at the Administration for Children's Services, or acs, which runs Crossroads, that all the.

[G]

Kids know that they have to be on their best behavior round. Right. It shocks that unit. It shocks the house. Because of the fact that Ear Hustle and Drama Club are together. Your choices by association become our choices. And that's not a choice that we would have made.

[A]

This experience was another way of seeing how difficult this project was. We were in this new place with a different culture, and. And we were beholden to all of these groups and having to follow their rules. And we just never really worked like that.

[B]

Nope.

[A]

A couple months went by, and we also didn't know how Tommy was feeling about that visit because it's not like we can call him and talk to him. So I was a little worried about how that visit affected our relationship with him.

[B]

Hello. Are we good? Finally, on our next visit, we got to catch up with him in person.

[A]

Well, last time we saw you was. When was it?

[B]

A couple of months ago.

[A]

And we thought we had a great conversation with you.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And then we heard there was an issue after. No, nothing.

[D]

Oh, which I. Oh, yeah.

[B]

Coming into the.

[D]

Yeah, the dorm, you know, it'd be small stuff.

[B]

Was it the incarcerated individuals or the people that work here?

[D]

Nah, it was definitely the incarcerated individuals. You should know we like our privacy. But I didn't think nothing of it until after y' all left. I'm like, oh, yeah.

[A]

Can you tell us what happened?

[D]

Nah, really, I don't really want to speak upon it. I'm not gonna lie.

[A]

But you were fine.

[D]

I was fine. Little conversation as hell. That's it. Nothing crazy.

[A]

Did you imagine that we were worried about you?

[D]

I mean, everybody got a worry, you know, but as if you see me panicking and you panic. If I'm not panicking, that's how, you know everything's good. I was just, you know, regular in.

[A]

In.

[D]

In house jail. Stuff that goes on.

[B]

None.

[D]

None too outrageous.

[B]

Jail politics.

[D]

Yeah, that's really what it is.

[A]

Are you. So are you doing drama club?

[D]

Oh, my God.

[C]

This.

[D]

I enjoy this. This. This gives me, like a little notebook or like a little peace of mind. Make me feel I'm outside.

[A]

By this, he meant doing this interview, talking with us.

[B]

But drama club, he was gonna pass. Wasn't feeling it.

[D]

Drama club is just like, you know, like. I don't know, like it doesn't get nothing going. I'm not going home to be an actor. I'm a felon.

[E]

I gotta look for a job, right?

[D]

Yo, what you talking about? Just stuff like that. It's just I don't gravitate towards it too much.

[B]

So I guess he's done with it. Didn't see it leading nowhere.

[A]

I mean, maybe that was it. But I was also worried that drama club was something he enjoyed doing. And, you know, us going into his room, maybe that changed things for him. But we had no idea. And I wasn't going to push him on it because he's a kid, you know, I don't want him to say anything he's going to regret. And it's interesting, Earlonne, because I don't worry about that so much with adults, but I do with kids. And that became an overarching concern for me throughout this whole project. The next time I went to Crossroads, something kind of strange happened. We were in the gymnasium and we ran into Tommy and He seemed so different. And when we tried to talk to.

[B]

Him, he wasn't in the mood to talk. You know, he told us that he had a bad day in court and that he'd catch up with us next time.

[A]

And it was striking because not only did he not want to talk to us, but he looked different, like smaller, scrappier. So much so that at first I wasn't even sure that it was him.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So this interaction with Tommy came up when we were talking with another one of those youth development staff, a guy named Landry.

[B]

Landry told us a story about putting together a basketball game where a few kids from different halls would come together.

[A]

Which is a big deal because normally kids from different halls don't mix.

[B]

And Tommy was one of those kids. Landry said at first Tommy had been really resistant to being with kids from other halls. He was like, I ain't gonna even put myself in that situation.

[A]

Like all gearing up for confrontation. You know, kind of puffed up and macho.

[B]

Exactly. So Landry sat Tommy down for a one on one.

[H]

And the convers I had with him very clearly was like, you have to understand, I'm not trying to change how you perceive yourself. I'm not telling you that I think this part of you is fake. I'm not going to tell you that this part of you is never going to have its place in the world because you've already been raised to understand that that's what you've valued. But I'm going to tell you that this part is not all there is to you. There is another part to you. So there's going to be times where you may feel you need to be this, but there's another part of you that the world needs to see more of.

[A]

So interesting. We've met with him maybe three times. The first time we met with him, he was so different. I'm telling you. He even looked bigger. Like his whole demeanor was so.

[H]

How long ago was that?

[A]

I can't remember. It was like a year. It was one of our first visits. He was like. I could. He spoke very clearly. He had fantastic eye contact. His body. Body language was very open. His posture was great. The next time I saw him was in the gym. I didn't even recognize him. He was so like concave and I couldn't understand him. And then we talked to him very. Just very different. So every time we see him, he's like a different person. In my heart I think he's like that first kid that really has a lot to offer but he just gets further and, and further away. And he's one of those kids. I don't know. But I feel like he doesn't maybe completely understand how bad his situation. I don't know. But I do wonder that about him.

[H]

Some of it also is the wear down, right. Of being here, the mundane. So he's went through phases where he's worked out every day and he was doing a thousand push ups a day. At a point we got to a point where two months go by and do one push up, what you're noticing is the reality of the case setting in and wearing on him. That's what you're noticing. So now as he starts to become more ingrained and understand that people that had similar charges and what they're looking at or people that had lesser charges that he thought he was going to be with, that went home, all of those things are kind of creating the narrative to where you're just understanding that things are maybe a little bit more bleaker than you thought they were.

[A]

Yeah. And the second time we saw him that like you said, yeah, I think.

[B]

He was just coming back from court and he probably got handed a cold sentence or a cold scenario and which it can make you, you know, withdraw from a lot of things because now you're looking at it like, Damn, I'm only 19 and I gotta go do 19.

[H]

Right. That's what I'm saying. I think that's the part that just really jarring, you know. So it's like some of them is looking at like, I got a couple of ones that's like about to do 15 years, you know, So I got another one that was 18, 19 and he gotten his dirt off for 19 years. You know, it's like somebody telling you to do your whole life over again in jail. Like that's a crazy concept for them to really take a hold of at this age and at this stage, you know, when their brains are not as developed.

[A]

But one thing that is very difficult when we're interviewing the kids here is realizing when they don't understand, understand how bad their situation is and they're kind of magical thinking that they'll be home pretty soon. It's really hard to hear that. I don't know what to say to it. I mean, I. We just listen because I don't know the ins and outs, but you can tell they don't quite get how bad it might be.

[H]

No, and that's a. And that's a pretty regular thing when those conversations happen. I think that's when the rapport really comes into play. Because you know who you can talk to, brass tacks. And you know who you gotta slow walk and hold their hand a little bit. I'm very, very forward with them about understanding the situation you're in and understanding what you need to do to change it. If there's something that you can do, it's really touch and go to understand when to meet it with optimism and when to meet it with reality. It also depends on your rapport. It depends on how that you accepts information. Because some of them will get to a space to where when you're saying real things to them, they're just blocking it out. And now they become infuriated at you because they think that you're now somehow planning on their downfall. When I'm just trying to tell you, bro, you, you did that it's not going to go the way you think it's going to go. And I'm not one of them. That's just saying because they don't understand the complete totality of what's happening, that they. They can't be held responsible because those people still victimize somebody and there's somebody who doesn't have their family here. But I'm just saying to understand and appreciate the fact that they're not just their mistakes. I've had those ones be in the room and talking to me about the regret for what they feel like they've done and how they wish they could take that moment back. Crying, you know what I'm saying? And I'm shoulder here, chest of the face of my chest. You don't want nobody to see you cry. That's fine, you know, but it be like that. I got like two or three of them. That really is in my heart.

[B]

You know, that's real talk.

[H]

Appreciate that.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, that's clearly emotional for you.

[H]

It is. Some of them is just like no guidance. And then like, you make a bad decision. It's your life.

[B]

I think you can kind of hear it in his voice, the kind of relationship that Landry have with some of these kids.

[A]

Yeah, that image really lingers with me. Him creating a space with his body so that kids have some privacy to cry.

[B]

He's a big cat, six five, very built, which serves another purpose too. I mean, if a fight broke out between kids, Landry could step in and end it quick.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, he can do both, which probably should be part of the job description for people who want to work with these kids. I mean, just to like add a Little bit. You are pretty physically imposing as you described. You're not just tall, but you're really tall.

[H]

Yeah, I can go with your descriptions.

[G]

I, you know, she gives great description.

[A]

But you know, you've got a large reach from your shoulder to your hands. Your hands are quite big. As you said, you're super broad. So like if I saw you would stand out in a crowd. But when you talk you're also very gentle and your face is really open and your hand, you use your hands to express yourself in a, like this, in an open way as opposed to like a closed fisted way. So it's an interesting combination. So I could see how kids, I know kids are very intuitive but they must see two sides in you and try to figure out what you might lean toward. So it seems like a disarming combination in this kind of job.

[H]

No, and I do agree because it kind of sets the tone to where there's this side of me that you're normally going to get.

[A]

Right.

[H]

But then there's decide that you could get.

[A]

How many hours a week do you work?

[H]

I've been around close to 70 before. For a week I've been.

[B]

40 hour week, I've been.

[H]

Yeah, well, I don't know what a 40 hour week is. Let me be clear with you. Since I've been here, I've never worked a 40 hour week.

[B]

Do y' all at least get paid time and a half when y' all gotta work overtime?

[H]

The money, listen, the money. If you have the resolve and the mental fortitude to being here, they'll let you be here as much as you want to be here. There's overtime as you can volunteer. I've never volunteered. I just want to be clear, I've never volunteered. Money is good, but I've never volunteered.

[A]

What do you think you've given up in your personal life for this job?

[H]

I will say first and foremost, adequate time with my child. I am a father of an 11 year old daughter who will be 12 in December. She played basketball, she does flag so many things. The tennis tournament that she won. Like there's so many things that I don't necessarily get to go to, you know, because of, because of the job.

[A]

But I mean, do you sometimes think about that, that you're taking care of other children?

[H]

Oh, I think about that and I know she feels that way as well too. She hasn't done away with me. She still asks all the time. So even if she's like, I know you might have to work, I just want to tell you as early as I can in advance, you know? Cause that's what I tell her. As soon as you know something, tell me. Even if you feel like it's a month away, because that's the more time I get, the more I can try to manage. But this also isn't a job where I can converse with a co worker and say, cover my shift for this time. There's no inner shifting like that. So if my number comes up and I'm stuck, then it's me.

[A]

I wonder what she'll say in the future when she's an adult. Because obviously you're also showing her responsibility and somebody who cares because you're doing an important job anyway. 20 years from now will be interesting.

[B]

She was looking at them. Stands to see her daddy.

[A]

I know, I know, I know.

[H]

And that's the catch 22 of the situation. Because it's like at one point, it's like, okay, well, you're doing what you need to be doing dutifully and leading by example, showing how it's supposed to go. But you're missing those moments, you know? And those moments, to me, matter more than the other side. So I think the fatherhood thing, I miss out on the most.

[A]

Part of. The reason we were curious about the lives of the YDS is that Crossroads had made the news recently.

[B]

That morning on a drive in the Crossroads, you and I made a little recording about what we'd been hearing.

[A]

Okay, so let's just say what happened.

[B]

So 5 yds were suspected of transporting contraband inside of the institution.

[A]

Yes. And that contraband included drugs, cell phones, weapons. Okay, put yourself back in juvenile hall. If some of the counselors that you had worked with had got swept up in this, what would you be thinking at that time? Yeah. When you were 17. You were 17.

[B]

Oh, I hope they don't tell on me.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Somehow, because I knew I was going to probably have my hand in something.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

You know.

[B]

We knew when we got to Crossroads we could not not ask about this.

[A]

Right. But I was a little nervous. This is kind of a hard topic, but we were researching some stuff here. Earlonne was about our what we could wear and what we couldn't wear. And this article came up about these people who were working here recently that got indicted. Yes. Okay, to be clear, this is not Landry. We'll come back to him later. This is another youth development specialist. This is YDS Hamilton.

[B]

We asked him why did he think a YDS would do something like that, Smuggle contraband in the Crossroads when you know it's gonna come out like, people cannot keep secrets, and it's gonna cost you your job and your freedom.

[F]

I feel like not all, but some. They do that out of fear.

[B]

Like legit.

[F]

Like, I'm scared. You get what I'm saying? And they. They're driven to the point where it's like, all right, if I come to work and do this, then I'm gonna have a safe day. And then after a while, it becomes addicting.

[A]

They were doing it to protect themselves.

[H]

Correct.

[F]

Because what happens now is you, you, you.

[H]

You.

[F]

You bring a certain level of power to the unit because you're so supplying a need. So these residents that know that they could depend on you to bring this, they will do whatever it takes to maintain that flow, and they will. They will essentially start to do your job for you.

[A]

Interesting. And think of it that way.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But you're also being a role model. Not for the better. No. For the worse. Yeah.

[F]

So doesn't that you're kind of perpetuating and continuing the behavior that got them locked up in the first place.

[A]

So did you feel extra betrayed by colleagues doing that?

[D]

Yeah.

[F]

Especially with the blades. Because I've been one of the ones that spearheaded the search teams, and I've had to get into situations with young men that had razor blades in their hand. There's no technique to disarm a young man. You get what I'm saying?

[A]

We alluded to this earlier. Youth development specialists like Hamilton are governed by different rules because they work with kids.

[F]

There's no pepper spray. There's no. There's no box time.

[A]

You see what I'm saying?

[F]

There's no severe things put in place to deter these things.

[B]

You see what I'm saying?

[F]

So it's like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

I was kind of shocked when I seen, like, they had weapons on them, like, Right. You know, you understand the tobacco, the weed, the silver, whatever it is. You know what I'm saying? But I was like, damn, the weapons.

[F]

Weapons?

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[H]

The youth that you're providing the weapons for, the ones that I'm going to have to deal with, you know, it's like you're almost arming them to attack me.

[A]

Here's YDS Landry again. He's talking about his reaction to hearing that staff had been smuggling in weapons.

[H]

For the kids, you know, so there's a part of it that just feels personal because I'm in this space and I'm trying to get back to my family the same way I came. And now, because this kid is Upset about something and decides that he wants to get to that point and harm me. You provided the weapon for him to do.

[A]

So what do you think it does to the kids in here when they realize they can manipulate adults to do things like. Like that for them?

[H]

It has them thinking that they're on an equal playing field mentally. Right. So they feel like there's no difference between us and them. And that's something that we fighting here to establish because some of them just have such a. Just a poor attitude toward anything that seems authoritarian. You know, it's just like, oh, like somebody telling me what to do. This generation is lost on it. You know, like, we come from. You could say back in the day, it felt like you were only told what to do and you didn't have a voice. This. This generation is the complete opposite. It's just too much voice and not enough direction. So everybody's just chief in it. Chief in it, chief it. Nobody wants to be an Indian. And the problem is when they get in spaces where they feel like they can manipulate us, then what's the difference then, you know, when we do things that compromise that view in their eyes, how can we expect them to take us serious and have. Have that level of respect for us?

[A]

I went into this project thinking that we're here to, you know, to get to know these kids, but the adults were turning out to be, you know, just as important to me in this project because they're good intentions and sometimes they're very bad decisions were clearly shaping what was happening there, and that was, of course, affecting the experience of the kids.

[B]

Yeah, well, at the center of this place are the kids, but for better or worse, they're surrounded by adults. And we can be pretty flawed.

[A]

I mean, a lot of people here clearly have the right intentions. There are these incredible staff that hold kids while they're crying or try to gently help them understand what it means to face a future in prison.

[B]

But there's also those who mess with the place, throw it in the chaos, make it more dangerous.

[A]

Yeah. And we were part of that adult mix, and we are certainly having an effect on the lives of the kids. And I'm not sure it was always for the better. I don't know yet, Earlonne. I mean, it's a lot to think about, but it's a big responsibility, and it's definitely one we don't have to think as deeply about when we're working with adults.

[B]

That's true. That's true. Coming up on the next episode of the Loop.

[H]

When you're dealing with this demographic, and they get caught in their feelings. They have very little regard for authority.

[B]

You ever got milked?

[H]

No, I haven't got milked. That's the scary part. You hope it's just milk. It's a lot of stuff that go into that carton, but it could happen to anybody at any time.

[B]

We're back with another count time.

[A]

Yeah, count time's an extra audio tidbit. And this week, it's a snapshot from.

[B]

San Quentin, where our inside team's been checking out a cool new spot on the yard. A garden. I went in to take a look with Tom and Tony from our inside team and our friend Hanok. And when I was incarcerated here at San Quentin, this was a pile of dirt. It was nothing.

[C]

Most people just walk right past this area. They're going to education. If you turn to your left, right as before you get into education, there's this little area that's probably half of a tennis court square. And it's probably the most colorful, most peaceful place in the prison. On the right side, we have three rose bushes and two lavender plants, two milkweed plants. There's tomatoes there. On the left, we have a loquat bush. You have the rosemary, which is starting to flourish. And in the center, we have the rose bush. There's a small plaque that says blue Soul healing garden in blue letters. And then under that, it says, this space is dedicated to all those impacted by violence created by the people in blue and planting justice 2025.

[B]

And then what's these ribbons?

[C]

On Victims Awareness Week, we said, hey, if you're interested in being an accountable and being a part of the ceremony and honoring your victim, here's an opportunity. This creates a space to be able to come in here and say, hey, you know, there's a ribbon specifically for.

[B]

The person I harmed. Yeah, I've been seeing, like, a couple of hummingbirds coming while we've been standing here.

[H]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. Oh, and y' all got a little hummingbird feeder. Yeah, that's cool.

[C]

When I come over here, sometimes I notice that there are other people sitting in here. They could be in quiet meditation. Sometimes I see them crossing their hands as if they're in prayer. And to me, that's what the space is about.

[B]

So when you come over here, right in your free time, what kind of things does it connect you to?

[C]

The part that really helps me center myself and calms me down is the rose bush. In San Jose, where I'm from, there's a place called the Rose garden. And my mother used to take me there. And I remember the specific time I was having a hard day getting bullied by kids. And she must have seen it on my face because that was the one day where she was like, we're gonna.

[H]

Go to the garden.

[C]

My mother worked a lot. She was working graveyards most times, so I didn't have a whole lot of time with her. We just sat there. She just held my hand, and she didn't try to ask me what was going on and all of that. She just was like, I'm just gonna sit here. And so, in a way, coming here brings me back to that moment. Feel like I'm spending time with my mom. Let me show you the rosemary.

[B]

Dang, it's strong. Oh, you smell it?

[H]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah, it smells like. I don't know how to describe it. Just super green, super.

[C]

Almost like a pine tree.

[B]

It smells nice, though.

[C]

Yeah, like minty, but with a nice little mint.

[B]

Right? It looked nice, though. It looked nice. This used to be the hangout spot right here. Y' all made something of it, man. It looked cool. Who Ear Hustle would like to thank Adam Brown at the Silberman School of Social Work at Hunter College, the City University of New York, and Joanne Smith darden and Heather McCauley at Michigan State University's School of Social Work for bringing us into this project and for all of their advocacy and support along the way.

[A]

Big thanks, too, to the drama club team, including Josie Whittlesea, Cesar Rosado, Tiffany Tiny Cruz, Abby Pierce, Sophie Jones, and Ashley Adams.

[B]

And thanks to Nancy Ginsberg, Ailes Kanzi, and Commissioner Danhauser at New York City's Administration for Children's Services for San yes to this project.

[A]

As always, thank you to the administrations at San Quentin Rehabilitation center, the California Institution for Women, and at the Central California Women's Facility for their ongoing support of our work.

[B]

Music for this episode is by Darrell Sadiq Davis, David Jasse, Antwan Williams, and me.

[A]

For full credits and more information about this episode, check out our show notes on Your home website, earhustlesq.com Ear Hustle.

[B]

Receives support from the Jest Trust, building a smaller, more humane engine of justice and safety across the country.

[A]

You can find us on social media, Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, TikTok and Bluesky.

[B]

And if you're not already, follow and review Ear Hustle on any of your favorite podcast app, including Apple podcasts, Spotify and iHeartRadio.

[A]

Ear Hustle is a proud member of Radiotopia from PRX, a network of independent creator owned listener supported podcasts.

[B]

Discover Audio with vision at Radiotopia fm.

[A]

I'm Nigel Poor.

[B]

I'm Earlonne Woods. Thanks for listening Radiotopia.

[A]

From prx.