Tricks of the Trade

Summary

Ear Hustle – “Tricks of the Trade”

Release Date: May 28, 2026
Hosts: Nigel Poor & Earlonne Woods
Location: North Kern State Prison, California

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Episode Overview

In this engaging and revealing episode, Nigel and Earlonne explore the nuances of California’s prison peer support counseling program as they visit North Kern State Prison. The focus: how individuals with experience on the inside are being trained and empowered to help their peers process trauma, addiction, and plan for reentry. The hosts dig deep with participants, exposing the messy, sometimes surprising truths about change, mentorship, and how “tricks of the trade” aren’t always what you’d expect.
Theme: The power and complexity of peer support programs—how incarcerated people help each other navigate trauma, addiction, and the challenge of change.

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Key Discussion Points & Segments

Earlonne’s High School Visit & the Power of Shared Experience

[04:06] – [05:05]

• Earlonne recounts visiting Olympic High School to connect with youth and steer them away from bad decisions, sharing that he was incarcerated at 17.
• Earlonne emphasizes the hope that even if only one or two youths are reached, the effort is worth it.
• “People who have been through hard stuff hoping that they can be…the one that keeps someone else from going down that same path." – Earlonne [04:49]

Arrival at North Kern State Prison: Sights, Smells, and Setting

[05:25] – [06:23]

• Nigel and Earlonne vividly describe the unique and unpleasant Central Valley odors outside North Kern.
• “Imagine an old ashtray…middle note is cow manure...bag of exhaust from a bunch of cars on top.” – Nigel [05:54]

Introduction to Peer Support Counseling Program

[06:49] – [09:33]

• Inside a small library-turned-classroom, the hosts sit in on a session with three “peer support specialists” learning trauma-informed care.
• The program is an 8-week curriculum: covers topics from addiction counseling and loss to institutional job resources.
• Participants will later work, paid, as yellow-jacketed support counselors within the prison.

Why Peer Support?

• "A lot of times, incarcerated people know what other incarcerated people are going through." – Earlonne [08:37]
• Trust is higher; inmates may open up more honestly with fellow inmates than with staff.

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Daniel’s Story: From Struggle to Peer Counselor

[09:43] – [21:24]

Daniel’s Background

• 6’5”, long-haired, “70s vibe,” from San Bernardino; incarcerated 10 years, including a stint at San Quentin.
• Struggled with severe meth addiction, isolation, and ended up on “crisis bed” (suicide watch/suicidal ideation).

Why Change?

[12:23] – [13:15]

• Family, especially his young daughter asking when he’d return, pushed him to quit drugs.
• Realization: if he didn’t change, he’d “be sitting here at 65 if I don't stop now.”

"Tricks of the Trade": Anatomy of a Burglar

[13:26] – [16:00]

• Daniel candidly discusses how he selected houses (“corner houses…wooden fences”), how the desperation of addiction narrows your thinking, and confesses to eating cookies and pizza at victims’ homes.
• “You just think, like, what can I get, like, real fast and get out of here?” – Daniel [14:03]

Path to Peer Support

[16:16] – [17:44]

• Joined the program to “help change my life”—not for the pay, but for purpose.
• Learned about the system, addiction, and helping others; discovered a surprising new part of himself:
• “I like to help other people...I didn't know that about myself.” – Daniel [17:06]

Family, Regret, and the Long Haul

[18:02] – [19:51]

• Daniel recounts a devastating letter from his mother, expressing heartbreak over not seeing him fulfill life milestones.
• Complex relationship with his mother, who is herself still struggling with addiction.

Would He Listen to Himself?

“Probably not...But I think that my experience and my strength and my hope from the past can be a roadmap to recovery for people that haven’t been through what I’ve been through yet.” – Daniel [20:43]

Notable Quote:

• “I felt like a creature, you know, I would have hid from you guys.” – Daniel, on his life before getting clean [11:08]

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Returning Months Later: Daniel is Gone

[25:17] – [25:55]

• When the hosts return five months later to catch up, Daniel is gone—transferred.
• “When you work in prisons, things change all the time. You know, people get transferred…when we got there, we realized Daniel was gone.” – Earlonne [25:45]

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Introducing Tyrone: The Reluctant Open Book

[26:15] – [30:57]

Tyrone is the Last Peer Support Specialist

• Sole support counselor left on the yard, supports everyone: “whoever comes to me, whoever I reach out to, if they need services, I'm there for them.” [26:54]
• Acknowledges racial/appearance biases but says: “I do my best to ignore that…allow myself to be as open to all cultures.” [27:16]

Tyrone’s Reluctance to Share

• Sees talking about himself as vain, avoids it: “To me, [talking about myself] is a form of vanity.” [29:15]
• Sees counseling as centered on others' problems, not his own story.

Hosts Attempt to Crack Tyrone’s Shell

• “We were kind of hitting the wall with this cat...He didn't tell us what his past was like. He didn't tell us nothing.” – Earlonne [29:57]
• They ask to observe Tyrone at work, hoping his actions will be more revealing than his words.

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Peer Support in Action: Group Sessions with Ricardo (TJ), Logan, and Anthony

[31:13] – [42:02]

Ricardo (TJ): Facing Deportation

• Well-groomed, upbeat; about to be deported to Tijuana—a city he hasn’t seen since he was 2.
• “At first I was depressed…I cried…But now…there was this sense of peace that came over me…I want to get out to my country so I could use that time to be somebody.” – Ricardo [32:09], [33:18]
• Dreams of opening a barbershop; realistic but hopeful post-release plans.

Logan: 20, Looking for a New Path

• Youngest on the yard, started drinking and smoking at 13; blames a lack of positive role models and bad crowd.
• Insightful about the impact of peer influence and wants to redirect his younger brother.
• “This is not the life I wanted to go around…All I want is to be a family man, you know?” – Logan [34:26], [36:53]
• Sees peer support as crucial: “Having someone to talk to is nice, you know?” – Logan [37:48]

Anthony: Homelessness, Addiction, and Survival

• Homeless since 17, struggles with meth addiction.
• Survival is harsh—constant theft, lack of sleep, reliance on food stamps.
• Wants to attend trade school for a CDL to become a trucker or drive a forklift—sees these as both economic and survival strategies.
• “Because I ain’t got nowhere to go…gotta do everything that I don't want to just to survive.” – Anthony [40:32]
• Deeply vulnerable: “I'll try to keep my best to keep you away from [that life].” – Anthony [40:49]

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Tyrone’s Approach to Peer Support

[42:06] – [45:57]

• Tyrone is stable, neutral, and asks open-ended, supportive questions—adjusts to others without losing his own groundedness.
• On not sharing his story: “Maybe I'm just not ready to see myself the way that you may see me…I'm a little embarrassed to open up like that, maybe.” – Tyrone [45:25]
• On opening up: “It comes with time.” – Tyrone [45:57]

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• Daniel, on the pain of a letter from his mother:
  "It just broke my heart…she’s like, I’m never going to see you, like, be the man that I want you to be. …so I didn’t know how to deal with it…other than use and try to, like, block that out.” [18:19]

• Tyrone, on supporting Anthony:
  “I try to be as supportive as possible, you know what I mean? Without being too pushy, you know what I mean? And I do my best to try to be relatable.” [43:48]

• Anthony, on addiction and homelessness:
  “They steal everything from me…that’s why the drugs come in play…But I get food stamps and so I try to survive off of that.” [40:18]

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Reflections & Takeaways

• Peer support in prison is a lifeline, especially for those who are not reached by formal staff.
• The story vividly illustrates both the potential and the limitations of peer counseling. Some, like Daniel, find new purpose and are eager to “pay it forward.” Others, like Tyrone, are less willing to share openly but excel at drawing others out.
• Participants are at varying stages of change—some confident and optimistic for their futures (Ricardo, Logan), others in crisis or survival mode (Anthony).
• Many deal with persistent trauma, addiction, and broken family relationships, complicating their post-prison plans.

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Memorable Moments

• Daniel on quitting drugs after a conversation with his daughter: [12:37]

  • “I’m done. I’ve been doing this since I was 19 years old…I'm gonna be sitting here at 65 if I don't stop now.”

• Logan’s hope for a new life: [37:29]

  • “I got a lot of goals, you know. And I will accomplish them…I know I'll do it.”

• Tyrone, on the art of being a peer counselor: [42:37]

  • “I try to adjust with them, but I also try to be an anchor and make sure that I’m stable and secure with who I am…so that they can lean on me.”

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Final Thoughts and Setup for the Next Chapter

The episode closes with a hint at an unfolding “complicated and high stakes” scenario involving peer support at San Quentin, promising a look at how these programs work under pressure.

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Major Timestamps

• [04:09] – Earlonne on “altering trajectories” for youth
• [07:40] – Description of peer support counselor program
• [10:20] – Meet Daniel
• [13:26] – “Tricks of the trade” as a burglar
• [16:16] – Daniel’s path to peer counseling
• [18:02] – Family and emotional struggles
• [25:45] – Daniel has left (story pivots to Tyrone)
• [30:57] – Tyrone agrees to demonstrate peer support work
• [31:13] – Group sessions with Ricardo, Logan, Anthony
• [42:06] – Tyrone reflects on his approach
• [47:04] – Preview of next episode/situation at San Quentin

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For Listeners:

This episode is a powerful, unvarnished glimpse into the hopes, limits, and human ingenuity behind peer support programs in prison. By focusing on the lived experiences of both those in need and those offering help, Ear Hustle continues to redefine how we understand prison life—less “tragedy,” more hard-won, real-life transformation.

Transcript

[Earlonne Woods]

Thank you to everyone who has already donated to our spring fundraisers so far. We are so grateful.

[Nigel Poor]

Your donations help keep the show running year round and allow us to take Ear Hustle even further by helping us bring our live show and storytelling workshops into prisons around the country.

[Earlonne Woods]

Your support is also, at this very moment, helping us cook up some very cool stories for next season. Like, we've got one in the works focusing on people who live around the perimeter of San Quentin.

[Nigel Poor]

I know. It is very exciting. I cannot wait to talk to that psychic. Do you think she knows we're coming?

[Earlonne Woods]

She should. She's a psychic, right?

[Nigel Poor]

She's right across the street from the gates of San Quentin.

[Earlonne Woods]

And there's another story in the works about a crime survivor who, over time, developed a complicated relationship with her. Selling.

[Nigel Poor]

Ooh, Earlonne. This one's already very challenging.

[Earlonne Woods]

Yeah. And we are still short of our fundraising goal right now. While we're recording this, only 185 of you have donated. Ooh.

[Nigel Poor]

It's a small number.

[Earlonne Woods]

Yes, that is. That means that we're just 18% of the way to our goal. So we need your help. Yes. That mean you to reach our goal of 1,000 donors.

[Nigel Poor]

And maybe you've been thinking about it, but you just haven't gotten around to it. We need you now, and it just takes a minute. You can even donate with PayPal or Venmo.

[Earlonne Woods]

That makes it convenient, right?

[Nigel Poor]

Just pick up your phone.

[Earlonne Woods]

Everyone who donates will be invited to our virtual party on June 11, where we'll answer some of your questions live.

[Nigel Poor]

That's always fun.

[Earlonne Woods]

Yes, it is.

[Nigel Poor]

And monthly gifts of $10 or more will give you access to Ear Hustle plus for ad, free listening and special bonus episodes.

[Earlonne Woods]

Donate [e-mail] donate or by following the link in our episode notes.

[Nigel Poor]

Thank you so much.

[Earlonne Woods]

This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp.

[Nigel Poor]

May is mental Health Awareness Month. It's a reminder that whatever you're going through, you don't have to go through it.

[Earlonne Woods]

Al life is a journey. Some days feel good, and others can feel overwhelming. Whatever's keeping you up at night, it's easy to feel like you have to figure it all out on your own.

[Nigel Poor]

But the truth is, no one has all the answers. And no journey should be taken alone. Having someone with you to listen, to understand, and to support you can make all the difference.

[Earlonne Woods]

Yeah. And therapy can be a place to get that Support.

[Nigel Poor]

With over 30,000 therapists, BetterHelp is the world's largest online therapy platform. Having served over 6 million people globally. And it works with an average rating of 4.9 out of 5 for a live session based on over 1.7 million client reviews.

[Earlonne Woods]

You don't have to be alone on this journey. Find support and have someone with you in therapy. Sign up and get 10% [e-mail] earhustle that's betterhelp.com earhustle this episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance.

[Nigel Poor]

Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you can save when you bundle your home and auto policies.

[Earlonne Woods]

Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states.

[Tyrone]

Hi, my name is Al Schatz. I'm a musician who lives in Baltimore, Maryland, and the tour manager for Ear Hustle's live show, recording this in Philadelphia where we have a live show tonight. This episode of Ear Hustle contains language and content that may not be appropriate for all listeners. Discretion is advised.

[Earlonne Woods]

So, Nige.

[Nigel Poor]

Yes.

[Earlonne Woods]

Last week I was in Southern Cal.

[Nigel Poor]

Yeah.

[Earlonne Woods]

And I went to this high school called Olympic High School, you know, to try and talk to a group of younger, younger me's.

[Nigel Poor]

So, like, to kind of give them advice or life lessons.

[Earlonne Woods]

Try to utilize my bad decisions in my life to help them alter their choices in life. You know what I'm saying? Tell them what I've been through, you know, especially going into high school. I told them like, you know, raise your hand if you're 17. I went to prison when I was 17.

[Nigel Poor]

Yeah.

[Earlonne Woods]

So it was basically me just trying to offer some type of, you know, honest opinions about life, opinions about the hood, opinions about taking that trajectory.

[Nigel Poor]

Okay.

[Earlonne Woods]

So that was my mission.

[Nigel Poor]

Yeah. Earlonne, it's interesting that you did that. I often wonder, you know, do people really change based on hearing other people's experiences?

[Earlonne Woods]

I mean, I think it may resonate affect one or two that's in the deep end, you know, and that's kind of what this episode is about. People who have been through hard stuff hoping that they can be, you know, the one that keeps someone else from going down that same path.

[Nigel Poor]

Right. I'm Nigel Poor.

[Earlonne Woods]

And I'm Earlonne woods. And this is ear hustle from PRX's Radiotopia. I couldn't even think of a smell. I've never smelled this.

[Nigel Poor]

I've never smelled this smell before.

[Earlonne Woods]

This is some new shit.

[Nigel Poor]

Yeah,

[Earlonne Woods]

I remember this day. We were at North Kern State Prison.

[Nigel Poor]

Exactly. And North Kern is in California Central Valley. Is it just kind of like north of Bakersfield?

[Earlonne Woods]

Yep.

[Nigel Poor]

Yeah. Okay.

[Earlonne Woods]

Right, just right there.

[Nigel Poor]

Super farm country.

[Earlonne Woods]

Yes.

[Nigel Poor]

And it has its own distinct aroma.

[Earlonne Woods]

Nigelita, explain what this smell like.

[Nigel Poor]

Okay, so the smell here. Imagine an old ashtray. There's some old butts in it. It's been sitting for a couple weeks.

[Earlonne Woods]

Cigarette butts are butts.

[Nigel Poor]

Cigarette butts. Okay, so that's the base smell. And then the middle note is cow manure, but I don't know, there's no cows anywhere. Then there's like a bag of exhaust from a bunch of cars that's been put on top of it. If it had a color, it would definitely be the color of ashes. If you don't want to eat, this is a great place to hang out.

[Tyrone]

This is.

[Earlonne Woods]

Don't do none of your lungs, your respiratory system makes you healthier. Oh, damn. That's Lieutenant Huckleberry. And I don't know if he like us talking about this smell,

[Nigel Poor]

but maybe he was just eager to get us to focus on why we were actually there and what we were there to talk about, which wasn't how it smelled. It was about a program that's happening

[Earlonne Woods]

here in California, a peer support program. Hello. How you doing?

[Nigel Poor]

So Huckleberry took us into this kind of library, small library that was functioning as a classroom. And there were three incarcerated guys sitting there, all facing their teacher.

[Earlonne Woods]

And they introduced themselves. Pleasant. This is Nigel back here. Hi.

[Nigel Poor]

Kenny.

[Earlonne Woods]

Kenny.

[Nigel Poor]

Kenny, nice to meet you.

[Earlonne Woods]

The guys had these big textbooks in front of them and they were going over a quiz that they'd recently taken.

[Daniel]

The role of peer support in trauma informed care includes all except C. And I think it would be C. Unsupported feedback.

[Nigel Poor]

Yeah, yeah, clearly. Yeah, that one.

[Anthony]

Good job.

[Nigel Poor]

Sounds like 100%. You guys did good. This is a counseling course. Peer support counseling.

[Earlonne Woods]

Yeah, it's an eight week program and it covers stuff like how to help fellow incarcerated people with like say, addiction, loss and grief training opportunities that might be around the institution. Life skills, you know, stuff like that.

[Nigel Poor]

Yeah, basically. Like how to use their own life experience to help people who might be going through, you know, some of the same stuff. So those are the six principles that all the peer support specialists should be familiar with. Perfect.

[Daniel]

Number two, it is important to develop settings and activities that ensure physical and emotional safety.

[Earlonne Woods]

True, true, Very true.

[Nigel Poor]

Absolutely true. Why do you think that is?

[Daniel]

Because you want a person to be safe when you're having an interview with them. You want them to feel safe and comfortable and be able to express themselves. Better that way.

[Nigel Poor]

Absolutely, because they've been through trauma, so you don't want to re. Traumatize them by putting them in a space that they don't feel safe. Earlonne, what did you make of this program?

[Earlonne Woods]

I mean, I think it's a good idea, you know, because a lot of times, you know, incarcerated people, you know, know what other incarcerated people are going through in the world.

[Nigel Poor]

Right, right. And do you think maybe they feel safer talking to someone who's not staff? In some circumstances, I would say yeah,

[Earlonne Woods]

because at the end of the day, another incarcerated person may not turn them in for their thoughts, no matter what the thoughts are.

[Nigel Poor]

It made me think about how this is kind of a formal version of what you see happening on the yard all the time.

[Anthony]

Right.

[Nigel Poor]

Where guys are doing laps and talking.

[Earlonne Woods]

It's the same thing, but this is just a different capacity where once they finish this program, these guys can work in the prison as counselors. You know, they get paid by the state, and they wear these yellow jackets that say peer support. Like, hey, you can come. Holla. I'm open for business.

[Nigel Poor]

Exactly. And so during the class, we were eyeing the guys, trying to decide who to focus on. And this guy Daniel stood out because he seemed like a leader type, and he was really open.

[Earlonne Woods]

And so after class, we asked him to come sit down and talk with us.

[Nigel Poor]

Can you describe what you look like?

[Daniel]

Yeah, I guess. I'm. I'm 6 foot 5, white, had a goatee, like shoulder length hair? Yeah, kind of, like. Kind of look German. Ish. I guess that's the way people say.

[Nigel Poor]

You have, like, a 70s vibe to me.

[Daniel]

Yeah, 70s vibe right now. Yeah. Someone said I look like Jesus the other day.

[Earlonne Woods]

Oh.

[Nigel Poor]

You know who I thought you looked like? Did you ever see the Big Lebowski?

[Tyrone]

Yeah.

[Nigel Poor]

Yeah. You look like the Dude.

[Daniel]

Yeah.

[Nigel Poor]

And will you introduce yourself, please?

[Daniel]

Yeah. I'm Daniel. I'm from. I'm from San Bernardino, California.

[Nigel Poor]

So how long have you been incarcerated?

[Daniel]

On this right now? I've been down 10 years. Yeah. Even on this trip right now, I've been to San Quentin. I was in San Quentin in 2019.

[Nigel Poor]

Really?

[Daniel]

Yeah. I didn't. You know, I didn't. I was still getting high at the time. It seemed like there was a lot of drugs there, and I didn't really like the experience. You know, I got strung out. I wasn't coming out myself. I wasn't going to programs. I wasn't dealing with, like, any of the stuff that they had to offer you there. I was so into My addiction still. I just had to get out of there.

[Nigel Poor]

How. How do you think you would have been if I Met you in 2019?

[Daniel]

I was probably 60 pounds lighter, probably had track marks, probably looked pale.

[Nigel Poor]

Would you have spoken to us if we wanted to know?

[Daniel]

I felt like a creature, you know, I would have hid from you guys.

[Earlonne Woods]

Guys like that tend to kind of hide out.

[Nigel Poor]

So those are guys I definitely don't see.

[Earlonne Woods]

He won't see them. They usually probably don't even come out the building unless they have a reason to come out the building, and that reason might be to re up.

[Nigel Poor]

Can you get anything you want in prison?

[Daniel]

I mean, it just depends where you're at. I ended up going crisis bed. And I just, like, told him, man, you know, I don't want to go back. This is what's going on with me. Like, I'm just. I'm getting high. Like, I'm stressing out. I keep waking up at night with anxiety. It's like the first time in my life I ever had, like, any kind of mental health issues. And, like, I was over it.

[Earlonne Woods]

You know what the crisis bed is?

[Nigel Poor]

No.

[Earlonne Woods]

Crisis bed is almost like when you're on suicide watch, you know what I'm saying? Like, you really conflicted to where you can't trust what's going on in your mind.

[Nigel Poor]

You're having, like, a break.

[Earlonne Woods]

You need to be watched. So usually they'll sit you in the bed, and staff or nurses will sit there and watch. So, you know, with hearing him say that, it seemed like things got real bad for him.

[Nigel Poor]

And eventually he was able to get transferred out of San Quentin and get himself clean.

[Earlonne Woods]

Is it hard to stop using in prison?

[Daniel]

It is, especially. I had a celly that was using, and one day he came home, and he had some. He had a little bit of dope, and he was like, you want to get high? And I was like, you know what, dude? I'm done. And I just stopped.

[Earlonne Woods]

Why?

[Nigel Poor]

What made you stop?

[Daniel]

I just talked to my daughter, and, you know, I talked to my family, and it was just like, you know, they're like. They keep. Kept telling them that I'm coming home, but now I got more time. And, you know, my daughter's asking me. She's like, you know, like, what's going on? Like, you know, and she doesn't really understand, like. Like, time. So she's like, you're coming home in 90 days, 100 days. What is it? You know, because she's still young, you know, I'm like, a thousand days and she's like, oh, my God. I'm. They're never coming home, you know, so it kind of, like, made me think, you know, and it's like, I'm done. I've been doing this since I was 19 years old, in and out of prison. I'm gonna be sitting here at 65 if I don't stop now.

[Nigel Poor]

How old are you?

[Daniel]

I'm 44.

[Nigel Poor]

Okay.

[Earlonne Woods]

Before he came to prison, Daniel supported himself and his drug addiction. Robbing houses.

[Nigel Poor]

Do you mind if I asked you a couple questions about robberies?

[Daniel]

Sure.

[Nigel Poor]

What is it like to go into someone's house like that? Like, do you think about who they are or.

[Daniel]

You know what? When you're in your addiction, you really don't. You know, now that I. Now that it. I've done it, and I think about it, I. I feel shame, I feel remorse, you know? Like, what do you think that people went through when, like, they come home and all their stuff that they worked hard for is gone?

[Nigel Poor]

Yeah.

[Daniel]

You know, so I guess not so

[Nigel Poor]

much thinking about those people, but. Are you looking at personal things? Are you scared someone's going to come in? Are you, like, making value judgments on the people? Are you?

[Daniel]

No, not really. You just, like. You just think, like, what can I get, like, real fast and get out of here?

[Nigel Poor]

So where are the best places to look?

[Daniel]

You know, I always thought about that. I thought about, like, having, like, a seminar of some type of telling people how they could keep their houses protected from burglars. Because I. My thing was, I would always look for, like, corner houses with, like, wooden fences or, like, hedges so you could, like, get behind the house and, like, people can't see you that are neighbors, you know, people that have windows open, like, you know, I've even been in places where they got signs on the window that say, don't. Like, we got cameras or we got alarm systems, and most of the time, they don't.

[Earlonne Woods]

And I'm just curious. You ever broken a house and somebody was in there?

[Daniel]

I have one time, I. I went in a house, and it was dark, and I went in there. I had a flashlight, and I was, like, going in the rooms, and I was, like, looking, and I walked in the last room, and I put the flashlight on the bed, and some guy was there, and he opened his eyes. He's like, what are you doing? I was like, please. You know, I said, like, police looking for, like, a guy. And then I just, like, ran out of the house and left.

[Nigel Poor]

So. Did you ever, like, make any food or Use the bathroom.

[Daniel]

I have, I've ate in there. Yeah, I've never, like, taken a shower or use the bathroom before, but I have gotten food before.

[Tyrone]

Wow.

[Nigel Poor]

Do you remember what you got?

[Daniel]

You know what? I really. I think I could take some cookies, some pizza one time. I mean, now these people are gonna come home and now they don't even want to eat the stuff in their fridge because they don't know what I did to it.

[Nigel Poor]

Do you make like a mess or just.

[Daniel]

Nah, I've never really made like. I've never been like a destructive, like, destructive people stuff or anything like that.

[Nigel Poor]

Did you look for drugs in the house?

[Daniel]

You know what? I know I'm never like, you go like medicine cabinets. No, you know, I. I think about it now that you say something, but no, I've never even. It never even crossed my mind really. My thing was always meth, like, you know, so I've always been an upper person.

[Earlonne Woods]

How often do you get to ask a burglar about his tricks of the trade, you know what I'm saying?

[Nigel Poor]

I know what you're saying.

[Earlonne Woods]

I mean, Daniel, he was. He was a real interesting cat.

[Nigel Poor]

Totally. But let's get back to the reason we were actually there. So now you're doing this. Pure support. What? Why did you want to do that?

[Daniel]

I had seen the doctor passing out the pamphlets to. To apply, and I had asked him, I was like, well, what is peer support? And he told me, you know, that we can. You can get certified by California and it's to help elder people. And so I grabbed one from. And I filled it out within that, like, half an hour. I didn't even know that you got paid for it. I didn't even know anything. I just wanted something else to help change my life.

[Earlonne Woods]

What are some of the stuff that you've learned thus far?

[Daniel]

I pretty much learned about everything in prison from the health care from the bottom up. So, like, any forms, anything that like inmates need help with grievances. And then we did, like, now we're learning about suds, substance use disorder, drugs, how people grew up and different stuff like that. And right now we're learning coping skills.

[Nigel Poor]

So what is something that you learned about yourself that surprised you?

[Daniel]

I like to help other people. Like, I really didn't know that about myself. You know, I was. Felt like I was standoffish, like I'm alone, like I said. And now through this program, I'm showing that I'm able to like, actually help people, and I like it. So.

[Nigel Poor]

So do you think you Were always somebody who liked to help people.

[Daniel]

No, I was never. I was always, like, standoffish or I would try to avoid people. I was always anxious or I felt, like, ashamed maybe to, like, answer questions and maybe say something stupid or not answer the question right, you know, Or I'd get angry if I told somebody something and they asked somebody else, you know. But now it gives me some type of inner peace.

[Earlonne Woods]

I can imagine why it feels good for Daniel to give advice. I mean, he's been down some dark ass roads, and I think he's learned from them.

[Nigel Poor]

Yeah. And maybe it's extra satisfying to have wisdom to share when you haven't gotten a lot of help in your own life.

[Daniel]

I got a letter from my mom when I first got to prison, and she was like, you know, I probably won't ever get to see you get married. I probably won't ever get to see you do this, you know, so kind

[Nigel Poor]

of all the things you wouldn't be able to do. Can you tell us more about that letter?

[Daniel]

Gonna make me tear up. Yeah, she just. It just broke my heart, you know, Like, I was sitting in the cell and she's like, you know, I'm never gonna see you, like, like, be the man that I want you to be. I'm never gonna see you, like, get married and all this stuff. Because she thought I was gonna be in prison forever, you know, so I didn't know how to deal with it, you know, other than. Than use and try to, like, block that out. So I think I ripped it up. I don't know. I was just going through an emotional time.

[Nigel Poor]

Do you ever wish that you still had it?

[Daniel]

You know, I don't know. It just made me feel some emotions that I really didn't want to feel. So maybe it was better that it was gone.

[Nigel Poor]

Are you mad at her for sending that to you?

[Daniel]

No, because, you know, like, I don't know, maybe she could have been more supportive in some ways. My mom's never really been that supportive, but I've always been a mama's boy because it's just been me and her. So, you know, so, like, it kind of crushed me. But, you know, at the same time, she could have. She could have maybe, like I said, been more supportive.

[Nigel Poor]

Yeah. What's your relationship with her like now?

[Daniel]

I mean, we have a rocky relationship. My mom still uses it to this day, you know, she's 69, almost 70 years old, you know, and so I can't be around her. Like, I can't. I can't you know, I can go there. I can visit. I can say, hey, mom, what's up? You need anything? You know, but, like, I can't stay around her because I don't want to be around that, you know, but she knows I love her, and I know she loves me, so.

[Nigel Poor]

Would you ever send her a letter like that?

[Daniel]

No. I know that I can't tell her stuff that she don't want to hear. I know I can't argue with her. I know I can't try to fix her finances because, like, anything I say to her that she don't, like, she's just gonna hang up on me or she's not gonna talk to me.

[Nigel Poor]

Do you remember when you were younger, like, the first time you realized that your mom was doing drugs?

[Daniel]

I walked in a room one time and I seen, like, some powder on a mirror, and I was like, what are they doing? You know, I just kind of realized after time that, you know, I started seeing them smoke weed and I started seeing him up all night, you know?

[Nigel Poor]

Yeah.

[Daniel]

Or realizing that they were all getting high.

[Earlonne Woods]

If you came to yourself in your addiction, would you listen to yourself as a pure counselor?

[Daniel]

Probably not. You think at the time that you don't. Or you think you know everything or you don't want to hear anything, you know, so there's gotta. I know there would be some way to get through to me, but I don't know if I have the answer to that. I think that my experience and my strength and my hope from the past can be a roadmap to recovery for people that haven't been through what I've been through yet.

[Nigel Poor]

So you're feeling optimistic?

[Daniel]

Yeah, I'm excited about what my future's gonna be like, you know, not only in here, but out there as well.

[Nigel Poor]

If we come back and wanna catch up with you and see how you're doing, are you open for that?

[Daniel]

Yeah, I'd love it.

[Earlonne Woods]

That Daniel's a cool dude.

[Nigel Poor]

Yeah, he is. I really was excited to get back there, you know, in a couple months and see where he was with the course and, like, what other stuff he

[Earlonne Woods]

was learning, and just catch him out there doing his counseling, his peer support.

[Nigel Poor]

Yeah.

[Earlonne Woods]

So we made plans to come back to North Kern State Prison in a few months to see how Daniel was doing.

[Nigel Poor]

That's coming up after the break. On All of it with me, Alison Stewart. We'll talk about art, music, theater, literature, history, food. Well, all of It. Hear in depth insights, interviews with authors like Zadie Smith, musicians like Steve Earle, actors Like Kate Winslet and beyond. You never know who you'll hear next on all of it, but it's always worth listening. That's all of it available wherever you get your podcasts. Nige yes, my friend?

[Earlonne Woods]

Does this ever happen to you? You're scrolling on one of your feeds and you suddenly see the exact thing you've been looking for.

[Nigel Poor]

Earlonne I'll be talking to my husband about buying a pair of Fluvag shoes and all of a sudden there's a floovog something in my Instagram feed.

[Earlonne Woods]

You buy that Fluval?

[Nigel Poor]

Yes, I do.

[Earlonne Woods]

You click on the link, add it to your cart, hit checkout, and then you realize you don't have your credit card anywhere nearby. But that's when you see it. That purple Shop pay button that has all your information saved and you can

[Nigel Poor]

check out with one simple tap.

[Earlonne Woods]

Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all E commerce in the United States.

[Nigel Poor]

Shopify has expertise in everything from managing inventory to international shipping to processing returns and beyond.

[Earlonne Woods]

With hundreds of ready to use templates, Shopify helps you build a beautiful online store that matches your style and helps you find customers.

[Nigel Poor]

See less carts go abandoned and more sales go with Shopify and their Shop Pay button. Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at shopify.com yourhustle go to

[Earlonne Woods]

shopify.com earhustle that's shopify.com earhustlE. We spend a lot of time talking about what happens inside prison and after people are released. Which is why we're looking forward to the new documentary podcast Fighting Crime, which asks what could have been done so that someone never walked through those doors in the first place.

[Nigel Poor]

Hosted by award winning journalist Christina Quinn and produced by Arnold Ventures, Fighting Crime dives into the world of crime policy and economics to uncover the evidence of what actually works to improve public safety.

[Earlonne Woods]

Throughout this 10 part narrative video series, Christina travels the country from prisons to universities and beyond to look at evidence and question everything Americans think we know about how to make our country safer.

[Nigel Poor]

Like, could GLP1s help reduce violence? Is air pollution making your neighborhood less safe? And why don't people leaving prison get jobs?

[Earlonne Woods]

It's not true crime, it's the truth about crime. So watch and follow Fighting Crime on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Nigel Poor]

So how would you describe yourself? Like just your sort of vibe?

[Tyrone]

That's a great question. I don't know. I think you would be better at answering that than I Would.

[Earlonne Woods]

Well, Nigel, this program surely changed Daniel.

[Nigel Poor]

He sounds like a different guy, doesn't he? I may sound calm. I was furious because we didn't get

[Earlonne Woods]

told that Daniel had left. Left the building.

[Nigel Poor]

So to be clear, this was five months after our first visit. We'd come back to North Kern to catch up with Daniel, and we wanted to see him in action. I mean, that's the story we were planning on telling.

[Earlonne Woods]

But when you work in prisons, things change all the time. You know, people get transferred. So that's what happened. When we got there, we realized Daniel was gone.

[Nigel Poor]

Yeah. And it's not like North Kern is going to call us and say, you know, just so you know, don't bother to make this big drive up here because Daniel isn't here anymore.

[Earlonne Woods]

Nah. There's no convenience like that.

[Nigel Poor]

No. So it was incredibly disappointing and deeply frustrating. Of the three guys that we met on our last trip, there was only

[Earlonne Woods]

one left, a guy named Tyrone. Your other two co workers then did it moving somewhere. Are you the only peer support?

[Tyrone]

I'm the only one left on the yard. Yes, sir.

[Nigel Poor]

And what was it like for you when they left? Did it have any effect on you?

[Tyrone]

No, it didn't. I like to see them leave. I don't want to see anybody in this environment. So if they have an opportunity to obtain some sort of freedom, that's always a pleasure.

[Earlonne Woods]

So.

[Tyrone]

Yeah.

[Earlonne Woods]

Did your caseload get bigger?

[Tyrone]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Earlonne Woods]

So you got everybody?

[Tyrone]

I got everybody. But I like it that way, though.

[Nigel Poor]

So how many people are you working with?

[Tyrone]

Oh, my gosh, the whole yard. So whoever comes to me, whoever I reach out to, if they need services, I'm there for them.

[Earlonne Woods]

I'm guessing that you're African American. I could be wrong.

[Tyrone]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Earlonne Woods]

So prison is based sometime on, especially the incarcerated population, on segregation. Do you see that being a problem in the work you do?

[Tyrone]

I don't see it personally. If it's there, I do my best to ignore it. I do recognize that I have a stimulus. So when I walk into a room, people may have thoughts that go through their head or a bias or a feeling associated with that. And then when I open my mouth, there's another stimulus that's associated with that. But I try to allow myself to be as open to all cultures.

[Nigel Poor]

So what do you think is the stimulus that people key into when you walk into a room?

[Tyrone]

That's none of my concern.

[Nigel Poor]

I know, but I'm curious what you think.

[Tyrone]

I. I don't know. I. I do my best to ignore that because that that would be something that would get in the way of me providing services.

[Nigel Poor]

Okay, but there's no way you could investigate that question with us. It's such an interesting one about perception and then why I'm interested in it. As you said, then people have a different stimulus when they hear me speak. And I'm curious what you think the difference between how. How people read you when they see you versus how they read you when they hear you.

[Tyrone]

I ignore that kind of stuff. I don't know. I'm sorry I can't give you more on that.

[Nigel Poor]

It's just. As for me, someone just is that's interested in behavior. I love all those little clues about stuff. So it's really a question about how you perceive yourself.

[Tyrone]

Yeah.

[Nigel Poor]

Can you talk about how you perceive yourself through the way you.

[Tyrone]

I'm very open minded. Very. I. I find myself. I don't know. I don't really talk about myself much. I try to be as humble as possible. I'm a God fearing person. I don't know.

[Nigel Poor]

So do you mind if I ask you some questions about that?

[Anthony]

Sure.

[Nigel Poor]

So talking about yourself is seen as arrogant?

[Tyrone]

I would think so.

[Nigel Poor]

Really?

[Tyrone]

Sure.

[Nigel Poor]

Why?

[Tyrone]

It's vain.

[Nigel Poor]

It's vain to want to understand yourself.

[Tyrone]

But talking about myself is to me is a form of vanity.

[Nigel Poor]

It's hard because when we talk to someone, we really want to. We want to know who they are and understand them better. I would think part of being a counselor is getting people to open up and talk about themselves.

[Tyrone]

Yes.

[Nigel Poor]

So what happens if someone comes to you and they have the feelings you have that they don't want to talk about themselves?

[Tyrone]

I have to respect that.

[Nigel Poor]

But then how do you work with them? What would be there to work with if they don't want to talk about themselves?

[Tyrone]

It's not always about talking about yourself. It's about talking about your problems and what issues that you may be facing.

[Nigel Poor]

How is that different than talking about yourself?

[Tyrone]

I don't know.

[Earlonne Woods]

We were kind of hitting the wall with this cat. I mean, you know, we was trying to understand, like what make him tick, what make him want to do what he wanted to do.

[Nigel Poor]

Yeah, exactly.

[Earlonne Woods]

But he wasn't letting us in on any of his secrets.

[Nigel Poor]

Nothing.

[Earlonne Woods]

You know what I'm saying? Nothing.

[Nigel Poor]

He was a closed book.

[Earlonne Woods]

He didn't tell us what his past was like. He didn't tell us nothing.

[Nigel Poor]

Yeah. With Daniel, the conversation was so fluid and open. And that's what we're always looking for when we do a story. And with Tyrone, we Just kept hitting one dead end after another.

[Earlonne Woods]

So we thought maybe if we could watch him at work, we'd see a different side of him.

[Nigel Poor]

So Amy, our editor, asked him if he'd be open to that. I wonder if we could go out and sit with you on the yard and see who shows up and sort of watch you do your job.

[Earlonne Woods]

Everybody gonna show up.

[Nigel Poor]

Fine. But basically just sort of like, see you in action a little bit. Is that all right?

[Tyrone]

Can I say no?

[Nigel Poor]

You can.

[Earlonne Woods]

Of course you can.

[Nigel Poor]

It's up to you.

[Earlonne Woods]

No. We came too far to say no.

[Anthony]

Okay.

[Earlonne Woods]

And you're the only peer support person, so you gotta take one.

[Nigel Poor]

After some back and forth, Tyrone offered to go to the housing unit and recruit a few guys.

[Earlonne Woods]

So that's what he did. And about 10 minutes later, he came back with three guys.

[Tyrone]

All right. Hi, Ricardo. How are you?

[Ricardo (TJ)]

I'm doing well, brother. How you doing?

[Tyrone]

I'm all right. You go by TJ on the air, right?

[Ricardo (TJ)]

Yes, I do.

[Daniel]

TJ the barber.

[Earlonne Woods]

The first guy named was Ricardo, AKA tj.

[Nigel Poor]

He was super well groomed. He was really present and friendly.

[Earlonne Woods]

He seemed like he was happy to be there.

[Nigel Poor]

Yep. And it turned out Ricardo had some news.

[Tyrone]

So how much time do you have left?

[Ricardo (TJ)]

I get deported next month.

[Tyrone]

What?

[Ricardo (TJ)]

Get deported next month. Thank God.

[Logan]

Okay.

[Tyrone]

Do you have any. Do you have any goals? Do you have any plans?

[Ricardo (TJ)]

Yeah. So luckily I knew ahead of time when I was in old Folsom that ICE was going to come get me. So I got to plan with my family. I got a studio already waiting for me. My car is out there.

[Tyrone]

Okay.

[Ricardo (TJ)]

My plan is to open up a barber shop.

[Tyrone]

Okay.

[Ricardo (TJ)]

I know that sometimes planning some things in the future don't go as planned. So, yeah, I'm trying to take it one day at a time, but also setting myself with real estate goals.

[Earlonne Woods]

What are they deporting you to?

[Ricardo (TJ)]

I'm. They're deporting me to Tijuana. I'm from Tijuana. That's why they call me tj.

[Earlonne Woods]

When the last time you've been in tijuana?

[Ricardo (TJ)]

I was 2 years old.

[Tyrone]

How do you feel about that?

[Ricardo (TJ)]

Honestly, at first I was depressed. I cried because I got my daughter, I got all my friends. My whole life is out here. But now that I came to accept it, I'm actually really excited about getting out there because I've never had the opportunity to fulfill my full potential Sense.

[Nigel Poor]

When you said you were getting deported, I was kind of shocked. It's like, what? That seems like a big Deal?

[Logan]

Yeah.

[Ricardo (TJ)]

No, I know a lot of people actually here, like, my people think the same way, but once I got past that, there was, like, this sense of peace that came over me.

[Earlonne Woods]

Are you fighting?

[Ricardo (TJ)]

I feel like since I've been down, time is of essence. I'd rather not waste my time in a facility trying to fight something to stay in a country where I'm probably still going to be in the same.

[Nigel Poor]

What if you didn't have to fight? What if just like. Like, in I don't know how many years, there'll probably be a new president?

[Earlonne Woods]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Nigel Poor]

And if you could just wait that out and you knew, like, you wouldn't know, it'd be a gamble, but maybe if you waited three years, the laws would change and you would get out and you'd be able to go back to wherever.

[Ricardo (TJ)]

I think it still falls in with the time is of essence. And I would want to get out to my country so I could use that time to be somebody.

[Nigel Poor]

Yeah.

[Ricardo (TJ)]

You know, and make my mama proud.

[Earlonne Woods]

So in a case like Ricardo's, there's not a whole lot that Tyrone could do, you know what I'm saying? Other than make sure that Ricardo had all the paperwork that he needed.

[Nigel Poor]

Exactly. So then Tyrone brought in the next guy, a kid named Logan.

[Earlonne Woods]

And, Nigel, since you're the descriptionist, if that's a word I like that, why don't you describe Logan?

[Nigel Poor]

So, as I remember, Logan looked like he was about 14. He was a white guy. Did he have tattoos on his neck?

[Earlonne Woods]

Yeah, he had some tattoos. He was a young cat, still trying to figure things out.

[Tyrone]

Did you expect to talk to me today?

[Logan]

Not really, but, yeah, I wanted to.

[Tyrone]

So you're famous to me. And you're famous to me because you're one of the youngest people on the yard. How old are you?

[Logan]

20.

[Tyrone]

20 years old. How do you feel about being 20 and being around so many older people?

[Logan]

This is not the life I wanted to go around, you know, I wanted to be out there with my family, but, you know, I was around the wrong crowd and made wrong decisions.

[Tyrone]

What would you have done differently?

[Logan]

Honestly, the way I was acting, the only thing that would have changed me is coming here like no one else. Like, my mom tried helping me, put me in programs, went to juvenile hall. That didn't scare me, but, yeah, I wish I had my father in my life, you know, but the drugs got to him, and I. I blamed it on him until I found out how addiction was. And it's hard to get out of addiction, you Know what is your addiction? My addiction was drinking alcohol, liquor, and smoking marijuana.

[Tyrone]

Okay. How long you been doing that?

[Logan]

Whenever I was 13. Yeah, when I was 13.

[Tyrone]

Okay.

[Logan]

Yeah.

[Earlonne Woods]

In what ways do you feel you've changed?

[Logan]

The way I think. I mean, I don't talk to any friends out there anymore because the only reason why I was doing bad out there is my. My surroundings, the people I was around. They'll encourage me to do it. And I don't have those people anymore.

[Earlonne Woods]

But you know, them people gonna come right back around when you get out.

[Logan]

They're gonna try it, but I ain't gonna let it happen.

[Earlonne Woods]

They gonna come around, they're gonna try to smoke with you, because that's what people do when they get out of prison.

[Logan]

Yeah.

[Earlonne Woods]

They're gonna try to drink with you. They're gonna try to do all that.

[Logan]

I can't. I can't really talk to those people anymore, you know, because, you know, we're not. We're on two different sides, you know?

[Tyrone]

So what can you take away from being in prison at 20 years old?

[Logan]

Well, one. One thing that got to me was the distance between me and my family. We're so close. I have a twin brother, and, you know, he's doing good out there, but I have a little brother out there that I felt in life, you know, I was his older brother. I was supposed to teach. Teach him the way, but I taught him the negative way. So whenever I get out there, you know, I'm gonna help him out, keep him busy, tell him about how this life ain't for him. Because, you know, at the end of the day, you know, if you keep on doing negative things, you're going to end up here for the rest of your life. Like, I see people like 70 years old over here, like, they're all, we've been doing this our whole life, you know. I'm not trying to be like you.

[Tyrone]

How do you feel right now?

[Logan]

Honestly?

[Tyrone]

I see your arms are folded, so I figured your body language is. It's a little shut off. Are you uncomfortable with my questions?

[Logan]

No, I'm not uncomfortable with the question. Just thinking a lot, you know, thinking about everything.

[Tyrone]

What does the future look like for Mr. Logan?

[Logan]

So whenever I get out, I'm gonna go to my brother's house. I got a couple opportunities, you know, my. I can get into firefighting or my uncle, he is trying to get me into welding over there. So I got a lot of opportunities. I just gotta take them, you know? Yeah, I know. I'm do good whenever I get, I'm. Stay away from a crowd. Just be a family man, you know?

[Tyrone]

Do you have any of those things written down?

[Logan]

I don't, but I mean, the goals I got is like, I want to end up like creating my own business. Kind of like build stuff for like playhouses for kids, you know, or like dog houses.

[Tyrone]

A contractor.

[Logan]

Yeah.

[Tyrone]

Okay.

[Logan]

And also a detailing business. I got a lot of goals, you know.

[Tyrone]

Absolutely.

[Logan]

And I will accomplish him. I don't got a negative mindset. I apologize and mindset and I know I'll do it.

[Tyrone]

Okay. I'd like to sit down with you in the future and get those goals written down. How do you feel about that?

[Logan]

That's. Yeah, I'm okay with that.

[Tyrone]

I really appreciate you sitting with me today.

[Logan]

Yeah. I appreciate you. Having someone to talk to is nice, you know?

[Tyrone]

Absolutely.

[Nigel Poor]

Listening to Tyrone here, I felt like we were seeing a different side of him. I mean, I can't say that we were hearing him open up, but you could hear him trying to get other people to open up, you know, which was interesting. You could hear his voice change. He asked these really short open ended questions.

[Earlonne Woods]

Yeah. And I wonder if that's something that they learned in training.

[Nigel Poor]

Yeah.

[Earlonne Woods]

Logan needed just somebody to talk to.

[Nigel Poor]

Right.

[Tyrone]

So what's your name?

[Logan]

I'm Anthony.

[Tyrone]

Anthony, thank you for sitting with me today.

[Anthony]

No problem.

[Nigel Poor]

So finally the last guy came in. Anthony.

[Earlonne Woods]

Oh, Anthony.

[Tyrone]

What were you doing before I pulled you off the yard?

[Anthony]

Honestly, I was just walking in circles. I was gonna start working out, but I had nobody to work out with, so, you know, just basically walking in circles.

[Tyrone]

Walking in circles. Why are you walking in circles?

[Anthony]

Ain't nothing else to do, huh? Ain't nothing else to do but walk.

[Tyrone]

Do you suffer from any mental health disorders? Addiction? Is there anything that I do got?

[Daniel]

Addiction.

[Ricardo (TJ)]

Addictions.

[Anthony]

I, I'm. I do drugs in the streets. Yeah. I got an addiction.

[Tyrone]

Big, like big time addiction. What, what do you, what do you suffer from? Addiction?

[Anthony]

I'm stuck on crystal meth right now. Well, not in here. You know, I'm actually sobering up, but when I get to the streets, yeah, I mess up, you know, so this

[Tyrone]

is a very weird question to ask you, but are you able to use drugs here on the yard? Nah, I'm not asking you to snitch,

[Anthony]

but I mean, it's possible.

[Earlonne Woods]

Yeah.

[Tyrone]

How do you keep yourself distracted?

[Anthony]

I gotta work out.

[Earlonne Woods]

Yeah.

[Anthony]

I find working out, it's like a new, new high for me, you know?

[Tyrone]

Yeah.

[Anthony]

I actually like it better, but I know for sure. Once I get to the streets, I ain't got nowhere to go. That's where I'm hop to rise to that.

[Tyrone]

How old are you?

[Anthony]

I'm 29.

[Tyrone]

29?

[Anthony]

Yeah.

[Tyrone]

And so how long have you lived on the streets?

[Anthony]

Since I was like 17.

[Tyrone]

Wow.

[Nigel Poor]

Yeah.

[Tyrone]

And how do you survive? How do you get by? Because that's a very hostile environment.

[Anthony]

It's not easy. It's really hard out there because it's hard to sleep.

[Logan]

Really.

[Anthony]

Okay. That's why the drugs come in play.

[Tyrone]

Yeah.

[Anthony]

But I get food stamps and so I try to survive off of that.

[Tyrone]

Do people like steal from you all the time?

[Anthony]

All the time. They steal everything from me. Clothes, food, my sleep.

[Tyrone]

Do you feel like being homeless has influenced some of your decision making?

[Anthony]

Yeah.

[Tyrone]

How so?

[Anthony]

Because I ain't got nowhere to go. I gotta do everything that I don't want to just to survive, basically. You get me?

[Tyrone]

Yeah. What does that look like?

[Anthony]

It's bad. I don't know how to describe the look, but it's bad.

[Tyrone]

That's right.

[Anthony]

Really bad. I would even want to show you what it looked like. I'll try to keep my best to keep you away from it.

[Tyrone]

Do you have any goals for the future?

[Anthony]

Yeah, I want to get to. What's it called? Trade school for a cdl. I really want to do that because I'm homeless. Right. So I have to stay in the truck the whole time and I can just stack my money.

[Tyrone]

Do you have a plan B if that doesn't work out? Forklift.

[Anthony]

I want to get a forklift driving, it's a little easy.

[Tyrone]

What if that doesn't go right? What's your plan for that?

[Anthony]

I don't know. I haven't thought that far.

[Tyrone]

Okay, well, I'll be interested to sit with you to see what we can come up with to ensure that you get you land on your feet.

[Anthony]

You know, that would be really helpful.

[Daniel]

Yeah.

[Tyrone]

Yeah, it will.

[Anthony]

Well, that time I need to start thinking about that.

[Tyrone]

I appreciate you sitting with me today.

[Anthony]

Thank you.

[Tyrone]

Do you have any questions or any advice you want to give or something you want to say?

[Anthony]

Nah, not really. But all I can say is thank you for. For all your help.

[Tyrone]

Thank you. Appreciate you. We're going to have to sit together in the near future so we can get some of your things in order. Okay, we can do that. All right, I'm going need that.

[Nigel Poor]

I'm so curious. We talked to three very different people.

[Tyrone]

Yeah. I think it served a purpose that I grabbed those three people because it Shows the type of population I deal with and how different they are on the yard. So there are people who, you know, who will come and who are eager to talk, and then there are some who may have struggled or struggle while they're talking and discussing some of their hardships.

[Nigel Poor]

Do you think that your personality or anything changes depending on the.

[Tyrone]

I try. I try to adjust with them, but I also try to be an anchor and make sure that I'm stable and secure with who I am. I shouldn't have said that you're going to get me on that one. But try to stay secure with who I am and stable and make sure that they can lean on me.

[Nigel Poor]

What I noticed about you is that you didn't change. You felt very stable with each person and treated them all very equally. That's what I noticed.

[Tyrone]

I tried my best.

[Nigel Poor]

Yeah. Did you notice that one of them had no fingernails?

[Tyrone]

I didn't notice that. Yeah. That probably is a sign of anxiety and being young in this environment. Yeah.

[Earlonne Woods]

Of those three guys, I think the one that really need the most help right now is Anthony.

[Nigel Poor]

Definitely.

[Earlonne Woods]

When you're doing peer support on individuals like that, are you encouraging him? Like, hey, man, you know, go, go to drug counseling because you definitely need it. Because he seemed like he's just on the edge. Like if he walked by Crystal, he finna hit it. I mean, that's basically what he said.

[Tyrone]

Yeah. I try to be supportive as possible, you know what I mean? Without being too pushy, you know what I mean? And I do my best to try to be relatable.

[Earlonne Woods]

Yeah. Because I see a lot of dudes that get out that don't they, they. They probably had life in prison, did everything, but didn't address the.

[Tyrone]

The issue.

[Earlonne Woods]

The issue. And so even though they wasn't doing it in prison. Prison, once they got back into society, it's everywhere.

[Tyrone]

Yeah.

[Earlonne Woods]

So that's why I was just curious on that. Like, do you push the line as a peer supporter? Like, hey, man, you need to be an AA N A. I push more

[Tyrone]

about aftercare and when you get to the real world, what are you going to do then? And how are you going to support yourself and staying maintaining your sobriety?

[Nigel Poor]

Okay, here comes the hard question.

[Tyrone]

Oh, no.

[Nigel Poor]

I remember when I said you don't have to answer any. Anything, so. So it was really interesting watching you work because what I noted is you ask a lot of the kinds of questions we ask to try to get people to talk, but yet you won't answer any of those questions when they're asked of you. I just curious what you make of that.

[Tyrone]

Maybe I'm just not ready to. To see myself the way that you may see me. Or maybe if I don't feel like my story as is important, I feel like the story of the next person is important and I want to hear their story. And so.

[Nigel Poor]

So that's how I feel. I want to hear your story. I gotta throw it right back at you. Is it a trust issue or suspicion? Or is it what you said, being humble or that you don't want people to know you?

[Tyrone]

I don't know. I just. I think just being in this environment, I've let myself down in certain situations and I'm not necessarily proud of who I've become in some aspects, not as a whole, but in some aspects. And so I'm a little embarrassed to open up like that, maybe because certainly

[Nigel Poor]

you're good at getting the people you talk to to open up.

[Tyrone]

Yeah.

[Nigel Poor]

So if you could give me just a little bit of advice to get you to open up, what would the advice be? I won't use it today.

[Logan]

Time.

[Ricardo (TJ)]

Time.

[Tyrone]

The more you, the more you sit with me, the more, you know, it's. It comes with time. So.

[Nigel Poor]

Fair enough.

[Logan]

That's it.

[Tyrone]

Thank you guys so much.

[Nigel Poor]

Thank you. Oh, is it horrible?

[Tyrone]

No, it was not horrible. Only one talking about myself.

[Nigel Poor]

I know, I know.

[Tyrone]

Only that part. So will I see you guys again?

[Nigel Poor]

I wouldn't mind that.

[Earlonne Woods]

So I guess if you're going to open up.

[Nigel Poor]

But he said we need time.

[Tyrone]

Well, that comes with the time.

[Nigel Poor]

Exactly.

[Earlonne Woods]

Well, Nig, we got to know Tyrone more than I thought we would, you know.

[Nigel Poor]

Definitely. And we also got to see, you know, the mechanics behind how peer support actually works and sort of the typical things that those counselors deal with.

[Earlonne Woods]

True. But while we were working on this episode, an unforeseen situation started unfolding at San Quentin.

[Nigel Poor]

Exactly. Another peer support situation that gave us the opportunity to see this program in a different way. Or maybe we should say the possibilities of it and how complicated and high stakes these situations can get.

[Earlonne Woods]

Yeah, it can get deep.

[Nigel Poor]

Ear. Hustle is produced by me, Nigel Poor, Earlonne Woods, Amy Standen, Bruce Wallace and Kat Schuchnecker.

[Earlonne Woods]

Shubnam Sigman is the managing producer.

[Nigel Poor]

The producing team Inside San Quentin includes Darrell Siddiq Davis and Tom Nguyen. Our inside managing producer is Tony Tafoya.

[Earlonne Woods]

Thanks to Warden Andes and Public Information Officer Lieutenant Berry at San Quentin, Acting Warden Padilla, Associate Warden Lewis, and Pio, Lieutenant Avena at the California Institution for

[Nigel Poor]

women and Warden De LA Cruz and PIO Lt. Bogle at the Central California Women's Facility for their support of the show.

[Earlonne Woods]

And as you know, every episode of Ear Hustle has to be approved by a public information officer. So this week it's on you. Lieutenant Huckleberry of North Kern State Prison in Delano, California.

[Tyrone]

This is Lieutenant Huckleberry, cio North Kern State Prison.

[Daniel]

I approve this episode.

[Nigel Poor]

Bruce Wallace and Earlonne woods sound designed this episode with help from Darrell Siddiq Davis. Fernando Arruda and Harry Culhane are our engineers.

[Earlonne Woods]

Music for this episode comes from Antwan Williams, David Jasse, Darrell Sadiq Davis and me.

[Nigel Poor]

For more information about this episode, check out the show notes on Ear Hustle's website, earhustlesq.com Ear Hustle receives support from

[Earlonne Woods]

the Just Trust, building a smaller, more humane engine of justice and safety across the country.

[Nigel Poor]

You can also find us on social media, Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, Blue sky and TikTok and Earlonne. Right now, because we're on tour, there's some really great stuff on our Instagram. We have to say thanks to Antwan Williams. He's a master.

[Earlonne Woods]

Yes, yes. Always been a video king.

[Nigel Poor]

Yep. So check it out. It's really fun.

[Earlonne Woods]

And if you're not already, follow and review Ear Hustle on any of your favorite podcast apps including Apple podcasts, Spotify and iHeartRadio.

[Nigel Poor]

Ear Hustle is a proud member of Radiotopia from PRX, a network of independent, creator owned, listener supported podcasts.

[Earlonne Woods]

Discover audio with Vision at Radiotopia fm.

[Nigel Poor]

I'm Nigel Poor.

[Earlonne Woods]

I'm Earlonne Woods. Thanks for listening

[Nigel Poor]

and P.S. really? Go check out our Instagram because Antwan is posting some amazing things right now.

[Earlonne Woods]

He's cooking.

[Nigel Poor]

Yep.

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[Earlonne Woods]

Time is running out to help us reach our goal of 1,000 donors.

[Nigel Poor]

Every single gift helps us get closer to our goal.

[Earlonne Woods]

Head to earhustlesq.com donate to learn more and make your tax deductible donations. It only takes a minute and you can even use Venmo.

[Nigel Poor]

That's right. Thank you so much for supporting the show.

[Earlonne Woods]

We appreciate you. Radiotopia

[Nigel Poor]

from PRX.