90% of Podcasts Are Doing It Wrong — Truth Behind Media Deals & Inside the Joe Budden Podcast Empire

Summary

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Podcast Summary: "90% of Podcasts Are Doing It Wrong — Truth Behind Media Deals & Inside the Joe Budden Podcast Empire"

Podcast: Earn Your Leisure
Hosts: Rashad Bilal & Troy Millings
Guest: Ian Schwartzman (Business Partner to Joe Budden)
Release Date: January 8, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode provides an unfiltered, insider look at the business of podcasting with special guest Ian Schwartzman, business partner to Joe Budden and key architect of the Joe Budden Podcast Network. The hosts and Ian break down the current state of podcasting, the truth behind media deals, the pitfalls creators face, comparisons to the music industry, the Patreon model, the rise of video podcasts, the impact of major platforms like Netflix and Spotify, and why most creators are missing the real opportunities. The conversation is candid, strategic, and aimed at both podcast industry insiders and entrepreneurial-minded listeners.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Ian’s Background & Role in the Joe Budden Podcast Empire

• Relationship to Joe Budden
  • Ian clarifies he is not just Joe Budden's manager but his business partner with unique equity in the Joe Budden Network.
  • "The Joe Budden Network is owned by Joe Budden ... My involvement is there. I do have ownership there, but it’s in a very unique way." (06:56)
• Industry Roots
  • Managed other artists like Remy Ma, DJ Premier, Papoose, and Royce da 5'9".
  • Formation story: Parks, engineer for Premier & Joe, introduced Ian to Joe when Joe sought new business direction.
  • Focus was to transform Joe from a music artist to a media mogul, seeing greater potential in his personality than music.

2. Current State of Podcasting: Parallels with the Music Industry

• Podcasting Becomes the “New Hip Hop”
  • Shift from creative passion to hustling for deals.
  • "Everyone's doing the same thing they did in hip hop. How do I get the quickest bag ... It’s almost like Squid Games for media." (13:01, Ian)
• Ownership vs. Quick Money
  • Lack of curiosity and true business acumen—most creators are chasing quick deals and relinquishing IP for up-front checks.
  • "If 90% of the industry’s looking for exclusive deals because an exclusive deal means you’re getting a guaranteed check, then that’s what the industry at large learns." (15:05, Ian)
• Creators Need to Build Real Businesses
  • Emphasis on creators learning to build a business, not just become famous.

3. Media Deals, Valuation, and Transparency

• How Media Companies Value Podcasts
  • Platforms lowball creators—creators rarely see their true value due to lack of data transparency.
  • "What they give you in a deal is not what you’re worth. That’s what they’re willing to pay. Their calculation on you is what you’re worth. But they don’t tell you that." (20:11, Ian)
• Direct-to-Consumer (D2C) as the Revolution
  • The Joe Budden Network chose Patreon over exclusive deals to better control and understand their value.
  • "You can’t know what your value is with a streamer... But if you’re on Patreon ... all of a sudden, you can figure out what you’re worth. Your fans will dictate it." (21:27, Ian)
• Actual Numbers and Value of Niche Subscribers
  • The power of converting even a small percentage of a large audience. 80,000 subscribers at $10/month = $800,000/month; $1,000/month from 100 fans changes someone’s life.
  • "Everyone’s looking to be a millionaire... At some point, as leadership in this industry, we have to stop putting these ridiculous numbers in front of people and just say, hey, work on securing 100 people..." (30:11, Ian)

4. Lessons from Patreon & Monetization Models

• Why Their Patreon Strategy Works
  • The Joe Budden Podcast is the #1 creator on Patreon due to consistent, exclusive content and business discipline.
  • "We’re the unicorn… But the goal was how do we become non-reliant on the systems that are in place for everyone else." (29:52, Ian)
• Not for Everyone
  • Most creators fail with Patreon because they’re not willing to adjust, experiment, or put in the work.
  • "I don’t think it’s not working for people. I don’t think people are working for themselves." (28:25, Ian)

5. The Impact of Celebrity-Driven Podcasts (and Why They Fail)

• Celebrities Don’t Guarantee Success
  • Major streamers investing in celebrity podcasts found audience engagement lacking.
  • "Celebrities... are fast-tracking failure... Not only do those names not deliver a show, but even when they deliver a show, they’re not delivering numbers." (32:53, Ian)
• Saturation & Shifting Money
  • "Now when the company says, hey, we tried it with celebrity A... we saw that failed. Now that money comes down across the board, too." (37:55, Co-host)

6. Platform Wars: Netflix & YouTube Entering Podcasting

• Netflix’s Entry shakes Things Up
  • Netflix is buying up bundles of podcasts (vodcasts) from companies like iHeart and Spotify, rather than individual shows.
  • "Netflix and YouTube are at war... They’re betting 10 years down the line right now, they don’t give a f*** what show this is." (47:06, Ian)
• The Bundle Model
  • Platforms negotiate for catalogs, not single shows, giving networks leverage and leaving creators with less negotiating power.
  • "You buy one of something, you pay premium. You buy 50 of something, you get a deal. Both parties win." (55:45, Ian)
• Loss of Ownership in New Deals
  • New podcasters sign away video rights and long-term value for bigger up-front checks. "Yes, they are giving up their video rights off the rip." (52:51, Ian)
• Organic Partnerships vs. Generic Ads
  • Joe Budden Podcast only accepts bespoke, collaborative partnerships (like Netflix event integration), not one-off product ad reads.
  • "We went the other way. You don’t see how little we shove down people’s throats so that when we actually talk about something, you’re gonna know we believe in it..." (61:36, Ian)

7. Adversity, Adaptation, and the Unique Joe Budden Model

• Adaptation through Change
  • The Joe Budden Podcast has survived major cast changes, adversity, and failed spin-offs by embracing change and learning from experiences.
  • "Anything when you’re first going through it is extremely intimidating... But doing that made us stronger. It gave us experiences..." (41:25, Ian)
• The SNL Analogy
  • The show is an incubator for talent—like SNL, cast members launch their own careers and might return later.
  • "We’re the SNL of 2025…where The Office meets SNL…We put, we’re a platform. We hope you use us and then go off and do your own thing." (63:14, Ian)

8. The Podcast "Bubble" and the Future

• The Bubble Has Burst
  • The hosts agree the podcast space has popped; easy ad money is gone, and only creators who can build loyal audiences and self-sustain will survive.
  • "The podcast space ... it’s popped already. You’re gonna see a crumble right now." (71:00, Ian)
• Comparison to the Barbershop Business
  • Podcasters waiting for platform deals ("walk-ins") will struggle; those building relationships with loyal audiences will thrive.
  • "We have a bunch of people that have entered the space that are waiting for walk-ins... and then you have the barbers that have been in the game for 20 years..." (73:02, Ian)
• Data Is the Real Asset
  • Real value is not in the initial deal but in audience data, which companies can leverage endlessly.
  • "The deal number is not the real number. The real number is what they make off of you once they have your data." (75:09, Ian)

9. Joe Budden Network’s Strategic Direction

• Quality Over Quantity
  • Future expansion will focus on internal IP and carefully curated partnerships, rather than rapid scaling or managing external podcasts.
  • "Let’s stop reaching outward... There’s no race to quantity, there’s a race to quality. We could do a lot with a little." (78:02, Ian)
• No Immediate Plans to Become a Podcast Management Firm
  • Ian prefers to stay boutique and focused on current ventures: "A lot of times people drown in opportunity and I don’t want to do that... I won’t have the ability to recapture where I am in the moment right now." (79:21, Ian)

10. Legacy, Influence, and Final Reflections

• Shout-outs and Gratitude
  • DJ Premier, Papoose and Parks are credited as key figures in Ian’s journey.
  • The recently released Nas & DJ Premier album, "Light Years," is highlighted as a milestone project.
• Encouragement to the Community
  • Ian urges creators to get their business straight, value audience over fame, and avoid giving up ownership just for short-term gain.

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Memorable Quotes & Timestamps

• "It’s almost like Squid Games for media." — Ian Schwartzman (13:01)
• "No one knows how to build a business. … Who’s teaching creators how to build businesses?" — Ian (15:12)
• "If you’re on Patreon ... all of a sudden, you can figure out what you’re worth. Your fans will dictate it. It’s not a guessing game." — Ian (21:27)
• "Celebrities are not. … Celebrities in my opinion are fast-tracking failure." (32:53)
• "Joe Rogan took his shit off of YouTube for his check at Spotify ... that didn’t work." — Ian (53:30)
• "We went the other way ... when we actually talk about something, you’re gonna know we believe in it." — Ian (61:36)
• "We’re the SNL of this generation ... we hope you use us and then go off and do your own thing." (63:14)
• "The podcast space ... it’s popped already. You’re gonna see a crumble right now." — Ian (71:00)
• "Get your business straight." — Ian (82:09, closing)

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Notable Timestamps

• 06:56 – Ian on ownership in the Joe Budden Podcast and industry dynamics
• 13:01–15:12 – Podcasting as "new hip hop," IP, lazy industry defaults
• 20:11–21:27 – How platforms value shows and Patreon’s D2C advantage
• 29:52–30:11 – Monetization math, setting realistic goals
• 32:53 – Why celebrity podcasts mostly fail
• 47:06–55:45 – Netflix’s moves, video rights, and the industry’s future
• 61:36 – The Joe Budden Podcast’s selective approach to sponsorship/partnerships
• 71:00 – The "podcast bubble" has popped; what’s next
• 73:02 – Barber analogy: transactional vs. relational podcasting
• 75:09 – Data is the real business
• 78:02–79:21 – Network expansion, boutique vision, staying focused

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Closing Thoughts

This episode is an intensive masterclass on media entrepreneurship, content ownership, and adapting to a rapidly changing podcast landscape. Ian Schwartzman’s frank and detailed insights reveal why most shows are “doing it wrong,” how deals are structured to benefit platforms—not creators—and why the future belongs to creators who focus on business fundamentals and building direct audience relationships. Rashad Bilal and Troy Millings expertly guide the conversation to help listeners understand not just the "what," but the "why" behind podcast business success.

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For aspiring creators or anyone in the podcast industry, this is essential listening — or reading.

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Transcript

[Ian Schwartzman]

This is an iHeart podcast.

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[Eyl]

Who wouldn't?

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[Ian Schwartzman]

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[Co-host or Guest (Financial Literacy Expert)]

This episode is brought to you by PNC Bank. A lot of people think podcasts about work are boring. And sure, they definitely can be. But understanding a professional's routine shows us how they achieve their success little by little, day after day. It's like banking with PNC Bank. It might seem boring to save, plan, and make calculated decisions with your bank, but. But keeping your money boring is what helps you live a more happily fulfilled life. PNC Bank Brilliantly boring since 1865 brilliantly boring since 1865 is a service mark of the PNC Financial Service Group, Inc. PNC Bank National association member FDIC.

[Eyl]

That's what you all I was telling you.

[Co-host or Guest (Financial Literacy Expert)]

Probably the most impactful interview I've done in my career.

[Ian Schwartzman]

Heroes now. Real heroes.

[Eyl]

I heard Rashad Detroit talk about the.

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

Tax l. We talk about finance, but we talk in a language that is common to the people. That's from the communities that we grew up in.

[Eyl]

You are the bright spot.

[Ian Schwartzman]

Thank you.

[Podcast Advertiser Voice]

Real estate.

[Eyl]

Thank you. And entrepreneurship for black Americans.

[Co-host or Guest (Financial Literacy Expert)]

This is the knowledge that actually matters.

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

I applaud both of you for this.

[Eyl]

Thank you.

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

Literacy isn't a.

[Co-host or Guest (Financial Literacy Expert)]

A country issue.

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

It's not an American issue. It's a world issue.

[Eyl]

He came to earn our leisure. All right, guys, welcome back. Yeah, Eyl, we got a special episode. This is something I've been looking forward to, actually. If you know us, obviously is a business platform and we always talk about things that may not be well explained. I would say, you know, a lot of things are kind of surface level when it comes to business, especially on social media, but you gotta have a deep dive. And the only way to do that is to actually talk to people that really know what they're talking about, the.

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

People that really, really do it. I think one of the things early on was like, we get to talk to the people who do a lot of the behind the scenes things that people don't realize that a lot of people are benefiting from. And today's no different. Today's no different.

[Eyl]

Ian Schwartzman, if you're a fan of the Joe Button podcast, which obviously you guys have millions of fans of that, I'm sure you know who he is.

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

I thought you were going to leave with. With Ian and Mark. If you're a fan of that.

[Podcast Advertiser Voice]

Thank you.

[Ian Schwartzman]

That's my guy. Now we're talking. Who gives a about them? Give out that show. No, no, no, I'm just kidding.

[Eyl]

I'm kidding.

[Ian Schwartzman]

We're definitely gonna talk business, but yeah.

[Eyl]

I mean, I think everybody kind of knows you, but they don't really know too much.

[Ian Schwartzman]

They know something.

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

They see you a lot.

[Eyl]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ian Schwartzman]

They hear about you.

[Eyl]

Hear about.

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

They hear about you.

[Eyl]

They hear about you. Yes, this is true. I don't think they see them a lot. I think they hear about him. They See a tweet, but it's like, you know, I don't think that they really have heard Long form conversation and his thesis on a variety of different things. Like, it's more a tweet or, you know, kind of like a.

[Ian Schwartzman]

They get flashes of it.

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

Yeah, you'll see clips on it. I know you had the show where y' all were talking with, you know, your significant others.

[Ian Schwartzman]

Yes. But that was very Pod Wives.

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

A little bit more of you was being displayed to the world.

[Ian Schwartzman]

I don't know if that was the side I wanted to, but there we go. All for the betterment of the network.

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

There you go.

[Eyl]

Betterment of the network, man.

[Ian Schwartzman]

Anything to make the network go.

[Eyl]

So we're going to have an interesting conversation. We got a lot to talk about, and it's perfect timing as far as this.

[Ian Schwartzman]

Yes, it is.

[Eyl]

Oh, my God. Is concerned. But first and foremost, thank you for joining us.

[Ian Schwartzman]

Thank you for having me. I'm a big fan of you guys.

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

I appreciate that.

[Ian Schwartzman]

You guys do the one thing that I feel like there's the biggest gap with, which is the. The financial literacy, the business conversations that actually matter, that make the wheel turn. So I'm honored to be on the show. I appreciate you guys having me, and I feel like we're gonna have a really interesting conversation.

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

Yeah.

[Eyl]

Yeah, for sure. So, all right. We're gonna get into Netflix. We're gonna get into the state of podcast. But before we start, let's, let's. Let's bring it back and let's really figure out exactly who Ian is. Are you Joe Button's business partner? Are you his manager? How did the relationship start? I know you manage other people.

[Ian Schwartzman]

Yes. Manage.

[Eyl]

You said Remy Ma.

[Ian Schwartzman]

I work with Remy Ma. Primo DJ Premier, Pap Papoose, Royce the Five Nine. I work with Royce. I work with Brady Watt and Joe Button.

[Eyl]

Okay, so what is your relationship with the Joe Button podcast?

[Ian Schwartzman]

I am Joe Button's business partner.

[Eyl]

So you own. You own a part of the show? Network, Your equity?

[Ian Schwartzman]

I would say. Yeah, I would say it's even deeper than that.

[Eyl]

Okay.

[Ian Schwartzman]

The word equity is. You know, that's a loosely thrown around term nowadays, but I'm an integral part of how the business was formed and how the business operates and runs today. So, yes, I'm definitely an owner in the Joe Budden Network. However, I will say this clearly, that the Joe Budden Network is owned by Joe Budden, which is a very important piece. And I don't mean solely, but there are no angel investors or majority Shareholders. It is owned by Joe Button. Yes. My involvement is there. I do have ownership there, but it's in a very unique way. And Joe and I have found an ability to work together that has set us apart from every other business relationship. You kind of see in our space, which I think is played to our benefit and to the benefit of, like, the podcasting and multimedia space at large.

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

This is. It's interesting because obviously, since you've been with the show, there's obviously been a shift in the direction of the show. How did you two first meet? Is it from managing the other artists in the world of hip hop and then getting involved in his career in hip hop? Or was it like, hey, they've got something going on in there. That's interesting that we can help elevate.

[Ian Schwartzman]

It first started through Parks. Shout out to Parks. So Parks was DJ Premier's engineer, and him and I had a very close relationship. I had been managing DJ Premier at that point for five years, and we were doing really well. And I guess at the same time, Parks was also Joe's engineer for his musical career. So one night when I was with Prem and Parks, Parks pulled me aside and said, look, I know Joe needs management. He needs someone who really understands the business well. Can I introduce you to. I think you guys would be a perfect fit for each other, which the rest of the industry, when I started poking around, felt the exact opposite. They thought we were oil and vinegar, Joe and I, and it would never work. So Parks introduced us, brought us together, we had a couple of meetings, and we actually realized that a lot of our sentiments were aligned. Joe was at a point, and I know he doesn't mind me saying this, where he's like, look, what I'm doing isn't working. I need someone who actually understands the business, understands what I bring to the table, and can help show me a new way. And those words resonated with me really deeply because I was tired of just playing a business position. I wanted to have more of a say in the strategy, the creative strategy, and a new way of doing business. And this goes back. I've been with Joe now almost 10 years as of April. So him and I have had a long run together. And, yeah, I mean, Joe and I's history starts with us doing a final album, Raging the Machine, that we did with Arab Music and End Empire, and me securing him his first true independent deal that we still make money from every month as to this day, almost 10 years later. And when we were on the road with Keeb, over there, my partner. It was me, Joe Parks, Keeb, and a few other people. We were halfway through the tour and promoting this album, and Joe turned around and said, I'm done with this stuff. He was absolutely ready to stop the music side and get into the multimedia and broadcast side. And I said to him, okay, good. Well, that means we have to put this down completely and hyper focus on what we want to do with the media side. And one little thing I want to preface my entire relationship with Joe is the very first time I met him, I told him, I'm really not that big a fan of your music. I was more a fan, seriously. And I know that sounds harsh, but.

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

Eight minutes didn't do it for you.

[Ian Schwartzman]

We weren't even 10 minutes into a meeting, and I was like, I'm really not the biggest fan of your music. I'm a fan of your personality. I always felt like Joe was hip hop's version of Howard Stern. He was so polarizing. Like, anytime I'd see him. Well, I remember him back in 03 doing the morning show, Drive time morning show for a very short time. And I always thought his personality was, like, so brash. And then secondary to that was his TV stunt with, like, love and hip hop and anything he did in reality tv. I just felt like, wow, this guy is something different than everyone else that's on screen. He's unafraid to be himself. He's unafraid to say how he feels, whether it makes him look bad or good. And that was attractive to me, being a huge Howard Stern junkie. So, long story short, when I met Joe and we were having discussions about working together, I told him I was like, I'm more interested in building a media business with you than I am doing anything with your music. So it was ironic that that ended up leading to his last album and us building, you know, the Joe Budden network and working on podcasting and media. So it's interesting.

[Eyl]

And the rest is history.

[Ian Schwartzman]

Thank you for the interview. Rest is history.

[Eyl]

All right. Okay. So let's get into it.

[Ian Schwartzman]

What are we getting into?

[Eyl]

Everything. Yeah.

[Ian Schwartzman]

You guys know too much. So I want.

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Ian Schwartzman]

I want to get into real stuff. Because if not, we're wasting time.

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

We have family and friends.

[Eyl]

Yes, we are.

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

We are.

[Eyl]

We got it. Yeah, we got it. We don't have time to waste.

[Ian Schwartzman]

We don't. I mean, literally, like, things are happening so fast in the landscape that I'd be worried if something like this doesn't come out, actually, because no one knows let's be honest, no one knows anything in this space. Everyone's doing the same thing they did in hip hop. How do I get the quickest bag and how do I keep myself above water so that I could do a show long enough to get enough money to hopefully make it to a second round? It's, it's almost like squid games for media.

[Eyl]

That's exactly. We talked about that yesterday on our other show. Is that it's turned in. Podcasting has turned into new hip hop.

[Ian Schwartzman]

That's exactly what it is.

[Eyl]

Before hip hop it was okay, my goal is to put some music out so I can sign a record contract.

[Ian Schwartzman]

There you go.

[Eyl]

I don't care about my licensing, I don't care about masters, I don't care about merch none. I just want a hundred thousand dollar car, please. A couple hundred thousand dollars up front. I wanna, I wanna be lit and I want to travel the world and tour.

[Ian Schwartzman]

Money, jewelry, objects, things that really have no long term value.

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

Yeah.

[Ian Schwartzman]

And no one really cares about the rights.

[Eyl]

But the reason why, the reason to me, the reason why he did that, because they, they didn't see a pathway to monetize their music other than that. And then the south comes in and then the independent labels and then they, then they provide a new blueprint of how you can actually still maintain ownership.

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

Right, right.

[Eyl]

But now I think it's the same space in the podcast space where a lot of people were saying be independent, do that. But there's not a lot of people that have provided a set blueprint to how to actually monetize the podcast. It's very difficult to monetize a podcast for just a regular person that's just talking about regular nonsense.

[Ian Schwartzman]

Absolutely.

[Eyl]

It's difficult to monetize that. So I understand that they look at it from a standpoint of I want to get a deal because how else are they going to make money?

[Ian Schwartzman]

There you go.

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

Well, as part of that, because I agree with what you're saying as part of it, in I ask you, Ian, is that, is it the lack of transparency?

[Ian Schwartzman]

Right.

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

So if people are doing it and there isn't the exact blueprint, I mean everybody's situation is different because everybody's value add is going to be different. But because we don't know what's happening here or there or there, we're just kind of freelancing it. And what we do know is, oh, when music. That's how this works. Let's do that.

[Ian Schwartzman]

Right. They're copying templates that existed in the past. I would say this. I don't think it's a lack of transparency. I think it's a lack of curiosity. I don't think there's enough people asking the right questions. There's not enough people knocking on doors that matter. Everyone's sort of following the herd, so to speak. If 90% of the industry's looking for exclusive deals because an exclusive deal means you're getting a guaranteed check, then that's what the industry at large learns. Which is why myself and Joe are so animate about putting out publicly some of the partnerships and directions we're going in that are the exact opposite of the rest of the industry. I mean, yes, this is a repeat of the old school music business. Everyone's looking for a way to survive and eat okay. So that's the premise of the whole thing. But the biggest problem that I see is no one knows how to build a business. So like, you guys are amazing at teaching financial literacy, but who's teaching creators how to build businesses? Because in my mind I look at, I first of all, I'm a new dad, I have a four month old daughter.

[Eyl]

Congratulations.

[Ian Schwartzman]

Thank you very much. That's my proudest achievement. Forget the business and all that stuff. That's, that's great. But as my proudest achievement. But something I look at that's impressive to me and is very interesting and to me is the, the litmus test of what's coming is in 10 years, I don't think my daughter and her friends will be looking for jobs at a restaurant as waitress, waiters and waitresses. I think they're going to be content creators. Okay. Because I think that's going to be far more accessible and normalized than going to get a job at a retail business, a brick and mortar business, a restaurant, a bartender. And so what's happening right now is the separation of people who are inquisitive enough to research how do I turn this into a business, this media thing? And the people who are like, okay, I see what these 10 people I look up to are doing. How can I mimic them? And if nine out of ten of those people are just taking deals where they're giving up ownership and releasing the relinquishing their IP, then 90% of the industry is learning the wrong thing. My goal with Joe is, is not just a selfish we want to succeed goal. I truly believe, and I said this in a spaces with Joe and Danny from the stop last night. I said I want to give the information out for free. I don't want, I don't want money for any of it. Because I want to be in an ecosystem where some of the people I may want to sign do business with down the road are just as knowledgeable as me. I don't want to be working with people that are lost in the abyss, aloof, don't have a clue how to do business. Because then it's me teaching you everything.

[Eyl]

So what's the blueprint? Because I've said, I mean, I give people our blueprint, but our blueprint is unique.

[Ian Schwartzman]

But why, hold on, why is it unique? Well, is it unique or is it. Is it just that it worked for you?

[Eyl]

It's a niche category that we're in as far as finances.

[Ian Schwartzman]

So take that back. It's not unique. It's. Your category is niche. Your business model is actually just you guys understanding how to do business and that we got to stop making doing good business taboo. Why is that such a mythical thing? Business is business. It doesn't matter if you're selling cars, it doesn't matter if you're selling content. It doesn't matter if you're selling CDs or vinyl. Good business is good business. We are accustomed in music to taking bad deals because we need to. And that needs to be eliminated. That from an integral point needs to be eliminated. This is the revolution of the multimedia landscape. D to C. Direct to consumer is the new path. If everyone's out here chanting, go sign a deal with Spotify, go sign a deal with Amazon. And I don't think it's a bad thing if you do. But if that's all you hear, then how do you know what your capabilities are in a direct to consumer marketplace?

[Eyl]

But most people are lazy too, though. They don't want to. They don't want to really be independent because there's a lot that goes into being independent. Completely independent.

[Podcast Advertiser Voice]

There you go.

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

Off the table.

[Ian Schwartzman]

Well, there you go. Yeah, well, this is something we should talk about. You can de risk yourself, but then don't expect upside. Be okay getting a salary and stop looking googly eyed at your. Your company that you work for when the owners get all the upside and saying, where's my piece? Well, you don't get a piece. You were de risked. It's called plug and play for you.

[Eyl]

There's a happy medium that you can sign and, and still have some level of independence from the ancillary thing. Because I always look at podcasting as not necessarily the content that makes money is the ancillary things around it.

[Ian Schwartzman]

No, the content can make money and that's where I want to help you. We're trained to think, and we've been trained more specifically in recent time to think that streaming. Let's talk about music and content. That streaming has devalued ip. Whether it's music, content, audio. It's not true. It's just that no one's taking the steps to see what their value is, where it really stands. Because if all you're doing is signing exclusive deals, you're de risking yourself. You're also putting a ceiling above you that says, I'm worth X because company Y says, this is what I'm worth. But the calculation's wrong. What they give you in a deal is not what you're worth. That's what they're willing to pay you. Their calculation on you is what you're worth. But they don't tell you that. If, if, if I'm. If I work at Spotify, right?

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

Yep.

[Ian Schwartzman]

And I come to eyl, I said, guys, I want to give you an exclusive licensing deal. I want your audio, I want your video. I'm going to give you a million dollars a year. You say, no, Ian, I'm not going to accept a million. I'll accept 1.5 million. But back in my calculator, I've already done some crunching of numbers that says I'm gonna make three million off of them. Let's give them the one and a half. You don't ever get to know you're worth 3 million.

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

That's part of it, is right? Is that how to even coming up with valuations? It's tough. It's not language that gets spoken about. Like, how do we even know what it's worth?

[Ian Schwartzman]

Right? So, like, good question, but how do.

[Eyl]

We even know what the numbers are? Right. Really, if you really want to be.

[Ian Schwartzman]

Technical, well, I'm gonna tell you how. Now, you guys, this is something you're familiar with. We've built an enormously scaled business with the Joe Bunn network at Patreon. So. So here's the thing. You can't know what your value is with a streamer. If the streamer has come up with their own formula to pay you out for every 1500 streams, you get the equivalent of one album sale. Well. Well, then how the fuck am I supposed to really know what I'm worth? But if you're a Patreon and you say every piece of content a la carte that you want to watch on my Patreon cost 10 bucks, and every subscription that we offer to a customer is either 5, 10, 15, 25, or $50 per month. Then all of a sudden, you can figure out what you're worth. Your fans will dictate it. It's not a guessing game. And that's where I get frustrated.

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

This is real quick because there's that moment. I'm sure most people were looking at it maybe five, six years ago when the Spotify situation did come up.

[Ian Schwartzman]

Yeah.

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

And you guys say no, right? And then.

[Ian Schwartzman]

Pivotal moment in the industry of podcast. But go ahead.

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

Right. And obviously, Patreon. We were on Patreon. Understand how Patreon works. There was like some creative, you know, things that were given to you guys or earned by you guys. The moment when I believe it was. Wall Street Journal puts out the article this year.

[Ian Schwartzman]

New York Times.

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

New York Times. Talk about conviction in the belief of what you guys had to the point of this year when it's like we told you. Yes, talk about that.

[Ian Schwartzman]

So this goes back to. To us being in a war room, Joe and I, because it really is. It's just me and Joe Keeb and Corey at the very most, talking behind the scenes of what we think things are. What are we witnessing? How are we looking at the data? Because, to be transparent with you, we're not just a media company. And we're not just a media company. We're a data company. I have been collecting the data from every platform that will provide it for us for almost 10 years. And so I'm not looking at stats or analytics anymore. I'm looking at a blueprint. I'm looking at a story. The numbers tell a story. Who's listening, where they're listening, from, what times they're listening. What's the retention rate? Somewhere along the lines of 2018 to 2020. I was watching an audience become ritualistically attached to the show in a way where I'm like, this is no longer about popularity. This is something much bigger. I was watching their listening and viewing habits and thinking to myself, wait a second, how much money is it possible for us to earn if we weren't under an exclusive licensing deal? What if we. My first thought was, what if we created our own app and we just had everyone coming directly to us? I thought, okay, Google, like, we could set up passive Google AdSense. We could set up a subscription model. I wasn't thinking Patreon at first.

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

But.

[Ian Schwartzman]

Then I started looking at the weekly listenership. How many people were showing up weekly? Let's call it a million. Let's just, for sake of this conversation, say a million. People a week were listening to two episodes. So that's over 4 million unique listeners a month. And I started doing math. I went like this. This is literally what I did. Took out my calculator and I said, okay, let's call it 4 million people times 2%. 4 million people listening a month times 2% of the audience is 80,000 people. What if I can get 80,000 people to pay us a monthly subscription? And then I did the math. I said, times 10 bucks. 800,000amonth. If I can get 80,000 people to move away from Spotify, to move away from our free tier, and to pay for a direct subscription to exclusive content. Not bonus content. That's the lazy way out of Patreon, but to exclusive content, well, then I have an $800,000 a month business, which far exceeds what we were getting at Spotify, which far exceeds the offers I was receiving from other competing platforms. And that's where the dreaming, the thoughts turned into conviction. Joe And I looked and I said, Buddy, 2%, that's nothing. You think if we shut down the show off of Spotify and apple right now, 2%'s not coming. They're watching this shit 40 hours a week. They're hooked. This is their Howard Stern. This gets them through work. They use it for entertainment. They listen with their significant other. They're laughing, they're crying. They're winning with us. And I just. My calculation was simple. I don't see offers anywhere close to that. The opportunity is much greater for us to take a swing here. And I said, as long as we own a piece of the company we get in business with, then I think it's a zero risk proposition. And that's how the Patreon conversation started. I didn't just want. And we went in there, we didn't get a dollar. We didn't want money. We wanted no advance. Like, we. We wanted no support. We just wanted the ability to really figure out our value. And we wanted skin in the game with the company we were going to bring that value to, and we got both.

[Eyl]

So let's talk about this Patreon situation. You guys sure you're the number one?

[Ian Schwartzman]

Patreon number one, yes. Have been number one for quite a long time, but the biggest. We are the biggest network and creator to ever touch down a Patreon.

[Eyl]

Okay.

[Ian Schwartzman]

Factually.

[Eyl]

Factually, actually. So Patreon, let's. Let's. Let's really break this down, because a lot of other people have followed the Patreon model.

[Ian Schwartzman]

Yes.

[Eyl]

I'm not really sure. How? How? Well, it's work working out for everybody.

[Ian Schwartzman]

Definitely.

[Eyl]

And then there's other people that have different variations of it. 85 south, they have their own app.

[Ian Schwartzman]

That's great.

[Eyl]

And like I said, even the reason why I said that our situation is a little different is because me personally. Right. I don't see the value in charging for content. We have a paywall, but our paywall is a subscription based model for our educational services, which I think is beautiful. But that's a kind of a form of a paywall. Right. So I think that there's different ways to kind of have different levels of paywall, but you guys do it where you're still putting out free content all the time on YouTube. Then you have, then you have the Patreon model. Like I said, people have tried to just go full Patreon. People have tried to do what you do.

[Co-host or Guest (Financial Literacy Expert)]

Yeah.

[Eyl]

50. 50, yep. I don't think it's working for a lot of people. I don't know. I haven't studied analytics. So why is it not working for everybody? And what, what are people doing wrong that you did? Right.

[Ian Schwartzman]

That's a really cool question. I don't think it's not. I don't. To answer your question, I don't think it's not working for people. I don't think people are working for themselves. I think people come up with every excuse in the book why things aren't working and what they're not doing is sitting down with one or two people that they have a chemistry with on the business and creative side to say, what have we not tried yet? Okay, my formula isn't necessarily going to work for Eyl. Eyl's formula is not necessarily going to work for Joe and Jada. Everybody has a different audience. Right? But what I think happens is people hit a wall quickly, which we've hit so many walls and based on what you do after you hit that wall, determines where you land next. And I think it's not that it's not working for people. I think it's people aren't taking enough initiative to work for themselves. This isn't the land of like, if A doesn't work, that means B through Z isn't going to work. You have to be willing to try some things. You have to be willing to say, I'm only putting out one piece of content a week. Well, maybe I need to put out five. Maybe I need to release every day until I start to get a gauge of what works and what doesn't for me. And So I also want to make clear the scale of our business is not something that I think every business is going to have. We're the unicorn.

[Eyl]

Yeah, of course.

[Ian Schwartzman]

So let's not compare apples to orange.

[Eyl]

But it's still something that. But it's still something that you. It might not be how much money you make on Patreon.

[Ian Schwartzman]

You saw it in the New York Times.

[Eyl]

$20 million.

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

Was it accurate?

[Ian Schwartzman]

At least a million a month.

[Eyl]

Okay, okay, so you make a million dollars a month on Patreon. Somebody can make 100,000.

[Ian Schwartzman]

So what about someone making 50? And this is where I get mad at people like you guys who are so educated, so well versed in the business lane, stop throwing those numbers out. Why can't you tell people get a hundred people to subscribe for 10 bucks a month, that's a, that's $1,000 a month passive that you don't have that changes your movements, that maybe frees you up one day a week that you can now dedicate to content. Everyone's looking to be a millionaire. I, I'll be honest with you, I never even considered the numbers we're doing right now outside of a calculation based on listenership. I didn't know if it was actually gonna happen. But the goal was how do we become non reliant on the systems that are in place for everyone else. That was the goal. People want something. That is so fucking pipe dreamy, man. And like, at some point, as leadership in this industry, we have to stop putting these ridiculous numbers in front of people and just say, hey, work on securing 100 people to subscribe to your channel. A hundred. Then work on a thousand. My theory is a thousand paid subscribers changes your world forever. Yeah, because it's a monthly subscription, it's reoccurring revenue. It's the. You now have a marketplace to sell hard products, ticket sales experiences. I would say 5 to 10 different verticals to them. And it could turn into a multimillion dollar business at a thousand people. I'm not saying you're making 100,000amonth, and I'm not saying you're making millions a year. I'm saying the potential is there. And I'm not mad at you guys. When I say mad, I don't mean literally. I just mean I think because we are in a position where we earn in a really big way in our categories, we tend to project our goals onto people that are just starting out. And I think it discourages them. And I'm not. And I'm with you. I'VE done it before and I'm mad at myself for doing it. But I think we need to give more value to starting at the bottom and genuinely working your way up and through the process. Learning how to build a business, not learning how to become famous. There's a difference. I know a lot of people that are famous that are broken, so people are actually after the wrong thing in my opinion. I'd like to see a bunch of non famous people learn the business and get rich.

[Eyl]

It's getting harder though. It is getting no, no more saturated with celebrities. That's getting fast tracking. Celebrities are fast tracking podcasts. Let's be honest.

[Ian Schwartzman]

Celebrity celebrities are not. I'm going to tell you something. Celebrities in my opinion are fast tracking failure. Yeah, I've watched Spotify. This isn't a diss. I've watched Spotify, Amazon, all the big streamers go out and get the biggest.

[Co-host or Guest (Financial Literacy Expert)]

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[Podcast Advertiser Voice]

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[Ian Schwartzman]

How?

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[Ian Schwartzman]

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[Ian Schwartzman]

Not only do those names not deliver a show, but even when they deliver a show, they're not delivering numbers. It's actually the opposite of what you thought you were going to get. Now, if you go get that same celebrity to post an Instagram in a bikini or next to a pile of money, you may get 300,000 people to like it.

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

Yeah, but what does that do for the overall business? Right.

[Ian Schwartzman]

Fucks the whole industry.

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

Exactly. So that, that's the part, right? So now when the company says, hey, we tried it with celebrity A. Yeah, we're never giving that budget again, we saw that failed.

[Ian Schwartzman]

That's right.

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

Now that money comes down across, across the board too.

[Ian Schwartzman]

Not just celebrities, but actual valued enterprises and IP that do deserve it. See, and that's why I've done everything in my power with Joe to separate ourselves from what the crowds are doing. You know, like we're. We're watching something very special happen right now with Netflix and podcasting. This is a good segue, actually. Let me backtrack. Spotify in 2018-2020 were experimenting with advertising. Stitched advertising, ad reads, all that stuff. We went from the first exclusive podcast in 2018 to one of, let's say, a thousand that were signed to Spotify. And when everyone started taking on stitched ads, I begged Joe, I said, please, I said, please, let's not take a single ad. The reason was I saw the experience of podcasting being interrupted and devalued. You couldn't get through a 30 minute podcast without hearing 14 ads. I was turning shows off that I used to listen to religiously. So that's why I asked him, stay away. Yeah, we lost money. We lost potential money, but we gained the respect and kept the experience at a premium for our listenership and viewership. And that ultimately helped us win over any sponsors or advertisers or corporate partnerships down the road that we would have had in the moment for light money.

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

Yeah, you know, yeah, you talked about experiencing. Well, obviously you guys super successful again, a unicorn in the space. But you said you experienced walls and barriers. Oh, yeah, Obviously we talked about the Spotify thing, but I think change is something that a wall that people kind of overlook most shows when they have a change. Show's gonna not do well. Oh, yeah, you guys have had change. And it almost feels like it's a constant change. Whether it's. We go from one day to three day. We went from three holes to five holes to six holes to one who's a cast member and the show just becomes even more successful with each variation. How is that maintained?

[Co-host or Guest (Financial Literacy Expert)]

And how did.

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

Did you experience adversity at the time? It's happening because it feels like it's just like a natural thing. All right, well, here's how we're going to respond to it.

[Ian Schwartzman]

Those were scary times because. Because it was like a first. Anything when you're first going through it is extremely intimidating. And when all the adversity that you guys are talking about was occurring in real time. Yes, we were fearful because, A, you don't know how the audience is going to react, B, you don't know how the partners you have are going to react, and C, it also leaves the show in limbo. So, you know, referencing losing, you know, our original cast when. When the. The big split happened. That was shocking for us. I mean, things weren't good energetically between the crew, but that happens in any group setting, musically. Like, it's across the board in businesses. It's no different in podcasting. So things weren't kosher in terms of, like, how people were getting along. And it was also noticeable publicly on the show. So when we face those moments, I would be lying if I said, like, yeah, I wasn't worried. Like, I just wasn't sure of what the outcome was going to be. And, you know, that's worrisome. And. And we were at this, like, this. This turning point each time we were. It felt like. Like an animal outgrowing their space. Like, I need a bigger space to live. Like. Like we needed to shed the skin and go through that experience. And whatever came on the other side, we needed to go through it and experience it to get better. And so, yeah, definitely questions from the partners, definitely questions from leadership, myself, the. The remaining hosts, when there would be these. These complications. And. And you learn how to be a business owner, you learn how to handle these difficult times with grace, even if you're panicking inside. Because there was that.

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

There's one part, too. It was like the JBP network.

[Ian Schwartzman]

Yeah.

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

Had other shows.

[Ian Schwartzman]

Oh, that failed.

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

Right.

[Ian Schwartzman]

So, like, yeah, like, absolutely. There's no, like, sweet way around it. Like, we started shows, we were ambitious. We were watching the success of the Joe Budden podcast, and we said we could do more. And honestly, some of it was premature. Like, we ran into the fire thinking we could handle things that we absolutely were not ready for. But doing that made us stronger. It made us so much more powerful. It gave us experiences that. A conversation from one of our elder statesmen who's been there and done it like a Steve Harvey or they couldn't have taught us. Some things can't be told and received. They have to be experienced so that you know what, what you went through, you could, you could recall it down the line. You could use it as, you know, power of information to help you with what's coming next. And yeah, we were not ready. We had, we started shows, they, they failed. They started great, but because we were so green thumb in knowing how to be actual network executives, talent management, all the stuff that we would. That I was handling for Joe and the podcast, you multiply that and you're understaffed. You're not ready for certain things. It could have drowned us, but it didn't. We never let it really go that far.

[Eyl]

Talk about. Okay, you talk about Netflix. Let's get into this conversation. So Netflix shaking up the industry. They just signed I hearts some of the I Heart podcast.

[Ian Schwartzman]

Yes.

[Eyl]

Breakfast Club Joe and Jada, like 19 shows. So I spoke to Charlemagne yesterday actually about this.

[Ian Schwartzman]

Yeah.

[Eyl]

And he had an interesting take on it.

[Ian Schwartzman]

What was his take?

[Eyl]

His take was that it's beneficial. You don't really know exactly how it's going to play out, but it's beneficial from the standpoint that YouTube has been taking advantage of creators for a long time and that there's no alternative to YouTube. Netflix obviously a higher level of production. So it's.

[Ian Schwartzman]

Is it.

[Eyl]

Traditionally Netflix show like you have to. Even if you're filming a documentary on Netflix, to my understanding, it has to be done with a certain level of camera or they're not going to even 4K. So YouTube, you can do any. You can put anything on YouTube.

[Ian Schwartzman]

Yes, but, but okay, so keep going.

[Eyl]

So. So he was just saying that he felt that, like you said, he wasn't 100 sure of like the total outcome, but he just feels like, okay, you know, Netflix is. It's a, a situation that could potentially shake up the industry.

[Ian Schwartzman]

And that I agree with.

[Eyl]

Add more options.

[Ian Schwartzman]

Better I agree.

[Eyl]

Than having like a monopoly in a sense as far as just YouTube controlling all of the content. And then I look at it from a standpoint of like, obviously that's going to come with certain level of guarantees as far as money going back to this situation. It also some creators might be a little scared and nervous because it's like, me personally, I'm going to be watching a lot less Breakfast Club content. Not because I don't like the Breakfast Club, but I'm not on Netflix that like, I'm on YouTube all day on my phone.

[Co-host or Guest (Financial Literacy Expert)]

Right.

[Eyl]

Netflix is something I have to actually take time, sit down on my couch, 11 o' clock at night, scroll the television on. I make a conscious decision. I've never really watched Netflix on my phone, other if I download a documentary on a plane.

[Ian Schwartzman]

Right.

[Eyl]

But if I'm watching just a random interview, I'm in the spur of the moment. I just want to listen to it on my car.

[Ian Schwartzman]

You want to hit YouTube, get in, get out.

[Eyl]

But Netflix also, I mean, you know, they have shows that have billion Diddy documentary has like billions of streams already in a couple of weeks. So.

[Ian Schwartzman]

True.

[Eyl]

They've pushed it to their audience too. So things can go viral on Netflix as well.

[Ian Schwartzman]

Things do.

[Eyl]

Okay. Netflix coming in the podcast industry, you talked about it. It's kind of reminiscent of something that happened a couple of years ago. So let's, let's have this conversation.

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

Sure.

[Ian Schwartzman]

I think Netflix and YouTube were at war. Podcasting changed the habits of listenership and viewership. Netflix and YouTube are at war with cable television viewers and podcast listenership across all DSPs. Vodcasts, which are the video side of the podcast, are becoming so relevant and so imperative to premium platforms that without it, all you have are 10 to 12 episode programmatic shows like Ozark. And those take six months, two years to make. And then after three days of being out, what are people watching? What they've realized is what we've been saying for a long time. We're putting out two episodes a week, three hours each. We're giving, this is just publicly. So the, the Joe Budden podcast gives you six hours of free public and then another six to eight hours paywalled. So we're talking about between 12 and 20 hours a week. We own the market share. Netflix looks now and goes what Spotify did back in 2018. Holy shit. We're paying the labels all this money for the music licenses we have. But what if we enter the podcast market space and don't have to pay the labels their share because we're doing original audio with podcasts, that means we don't have to pay the labels. We can collect profits every quarter, which means our stockholders will invest more money because they'll get a bigger dividend. I think the war is starting not only between YouTube and and Netflix, but it's YouTube and Netflix trying to figure out how to take over the most listened to and watch content in the world, which is podcasting. This goes back to my vision for what my daughter is going to do for her first job. They're betting 10 years down the line right now, they don't give a fuck what show this is. Netflix. They don't care what works and what doesn't. That's why they're not negotiating with individual shows right now. Now, I don't know what your conversation with Charlamagne was, but he didn't negotiate that deal with Netflix. Right. I Heart.

[Eyl]

I don't know if I did or not, but it was I Heart saying.

[Ian Schwartzman]

I. I Heart the beneficiary.

[Eyl]

It was a suite of Iheart podcast. Yeah.

[Ian Schwartzman]

Key word, it's a suite. I Heart was approached by Netflix and now I. I'm. I'm speculating. I don't really know if this is how it works, but I'm using my better judgment. I Heart was approached by Netflix. Netflix came up with a really beneficial situation for Iheart to take their vodcasts and put them on a platform like Netflix. Not one at a time, a suite of them. And we just saw this recently happen with a competitor, Spotify, Bill Simmons and the ringer. They announced 14 of. I'm paraphrasing, 14 of his shows were going to be the first offerings from Spotify to Netflix for their partnership with Netflix. And my first thought was, didn't they buy the Ringer from Bill Simmons? So that means Bill Simmons didn't negotiate with Netflix. I'm sure he's pretty angry right now. I'm sure Spotify gets all the upside of the Netflix deal. I'm sure I Heart gets all the upside of the I Heart situation with all their shows. And so what they're doing.

[Eyl]

But I Heart doesn't own. We talked about this downstairs. Breakfast Club is different because that's the I Heart entity, the individual shows. I don't know this for certain, but I know it.

[Ian Schwartzman]

What shows are you referencing? Just give me a couple.

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

Joe and Jada, they.

[Ian Schwartzman]

They own their own show.

[Podcast Advertiser Voice]

They don't.

[Ian Schwartzman]

I'm asking.

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

Yeah. So it's. It's interesting.

[Eyl]

What level you know?

[Ian Schwartzman]

I don't know.

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

Only because I was on the phone with Iheart yesterday.

[Ian Schwartzman]

Okay.

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

Yeah, I was literally.

[Ian Schwartzman]

Tell me. I'm.

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

Because I'm just. I want to speculate. So a lot of what's changed is that what you're talking about is 100% correct. When podcasting started, it was just the audio experience.

[Ian Schwartzman]

Right.

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

And then a lot of shows you. We had. We started with. It became a video experience.

[Eyl]

Right?

[Ian Schwartzman]

Exactly.

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

In the original contracts, there is nothing for the video.

[Co-host or Guest (Financial Literacy Expert)]

Right.

[Ian Schwartzman]

Those are old school.

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

Old school contracts. So now they've actually started putting language. Language sounds good. YouTube rights inside of the language of their contract.

[Ian Schwartzman]

Or video rights.

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

Or video rights. So now if you sign a deal.

[Ian Schwartzman]

Like if I'm Joe and Jada in 2024, I start my podcast. Do you think. I don't know who they have a deal with, but they have a. Yeah. Who? Let's just say they have a deal with some network. Do you think that their deal didn't include video rights in 2024?

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

And yeah, and I'm sure it did because the language has changed even in negotiating contracts and even with us, like in our contracts. It was like, no, no, no, no.

[Ian Schwartzman]

What's the matter?

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

No, it's real.

[Co-host or Guest (Financial Literacy Expert)]

These, These are real conversations.

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

It was like, look, not something that we're interested in. Right. Because we. We built this independently. Right, of course. And so most people don't have a video component of their pocket today's date. They do. Labels know that. Labels being the powers of the corporation. The corporations. And so now it's in the contract.

[Ian Schwartzman]

Yes. Right.

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

So they throw a little bit more money in it.

[Eyl]

Okay, when you say standard. Let's not just. Yeah, lump every. Because we can't do that.

[Ian Schwartzman]

What's the matter? You afraid of offending somebody? What can we do? What is going on here?

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

Anyone's contract saying that Iheart and the Spotify's of the world are offering Now.

[Eyl]

I'm saying for us, we've never given up any level of video at all.

[Ian Schwartzman]

So I just said.

[Eyl]

But I know that there's other people. 85 south, they never gave up their video.

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

But so now think about when did they start?

[Ian Schwartzman]

They started along a long time ago.

[Co-host or Guest (Financial Literacy Expert)]

Exactly.

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

I'm talking about the newer people that's.

[Eyl]

Coming into the game right now in the past three or four that they're signing deals off the rip.

[Ian Schwartzman]

Yes, yes.

[Eyl]

That's giving up.

[Ian Schwartzman]

No, no, no, stop. Don't ask the question. So now we're. Now we're gonna. Now we're gonna sound crazy. You're not gonna do this with me. Yes, they are giving up their video rights off the.

[Eyl]

Off the rip.

[Ian Schwartzman]

Yes.

[Co-host or Guest (Financial Literacy Expert)]

They don't have any yet.

[Eyl]

No.

[Ian Schwartzman]

Because they want a bigger check.

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

That's that part too.

[Co-host or Guest (Financial Literacy Expert)]

And they haven't even experienced what it is to be.

[Eyl]

But they know that they're gonna. It's not like YouTube is a secret at this point. Or they. They know that video is a major part. Probably more people might even watch the video than they listen to the audio.

[Ian Schwartzman]

That is a fact.

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

Well, who knows it better? They know, like you said, they're looking at it, it's the same thing that you said earlier. If they offer you 1.2 and Masterpiece told us this 30 years ago, if they offered me one, I must be worth a hundred.

[Ian Schwartzman]

There you go.

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

They know if they offer you 2 million or 10 million for your video rights and your audio rights, they know they're going to make 30 off of it.

[Co-host or Guest (Financial Literacy Expert)]

Right?

[Ian Schwartzman]

Because no one's, no one's investing to get their money back.

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

Right? They're investing to make the profit.

[Ian Schwartzman]

There's a margin. Here's the other thing, guys. We're playing games here. We're playing semantics. Joe Rogan took his shit off of YouTube for his check at Spotify and experimented with his video on Spotify. That didn't work as Spotify has pivoted and now they cut a deal with Netflix so that they can now take the video of all the podcasts they either own or have exclusive licenses to and maneuver those video podcasts however the fuck they want. That's Spotify and Netflix. What do you think is happening with Netflix and Iheartra? I think I'm just guessing. Iheart's having trouble making money on the audio side of all their businesses. Terrestrial, radio, digital. They don't know how to monetize it themselves. Yes, on a passive ad revenue fill, Maybe they're filling 30 to 50% of their ad inventory, but that's nothing. That's low level mass corporate integration with products. They want to see real money. They, they have to give over an asset that is helping another company gain market share. What helps market share? When you could bundle up 50 shows, 50 iHeart shows that have video components to it and say all 50 of these are now property of Netflix. We're going to take three of your eight episodes per show and air it on Netflix. What happens with the creators? They go, yay, I'm on Netflix. But what really just happened is there was an enormous acquisition between Netflix and Iheart. Netflix paid Iheart multiples of the value of those vodcasts so that Iheart actually had a margin on these 50 shows that they've been investing in for years, probably just making a small 3 to 5% margin year over year. It's costing them brain damage to deal with each of these artists. So what's the one way they can go about it without having to negotiate with each artist? You go to the Ihearts, you go to Spotify. What do you guys have rights to? Show me, show me a catalog. We wanna buy in bulk. In bulk you get a deal, right in any industry.

[Co-host or Guest (Financial Literacy Expert)]

Yeah.

[Ian Schwartzman]

You buy one of something, you pay premium. You buy 50 of something, you get a deal. Both parties win. In fact, I'm sure even the creators of the shows got a bump in their salary. They had to get an extra bump in their salary.

[Eyl]

Bump in this. Allegedly.

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

Allegedly. We don't know.

[Eyl]

But we would assume salary. We would assume.

[Ian Schwartzman]

I'm. I. I'm not saying I know anything. I'm just saying they're getting a bump in their pay.

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

So here's the question, though, Right?

[Eyl]

But they didn't get their own structured deal.

[Ian Schwartzman]

I would, I would have to take a strong stance on. Absolutely not. But that's my opinion. Yeah, I'm probably wrong. You could be whatever.

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

Yeah, you could be.

[Ian Schwartzman]

I'm wrong.

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

What you said is factual in the sense that when you offer a bundle, you're going to get offered an amount, but if you offer something singular, it's going to be premium. So obviously, your JB is premium. This is premium.

[Ian Schwartzman]

We're super premium.

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

Super premium, right?

[Ian Schwartzman]

Yes.

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

So Netflix may come to you. Maybe they don't.

[Co-host or Guest (Financial Literacy Expert)]

I have.

[Ian Schwartzman]

We have business with Netflix.

[Eyl]

That's why I got it.

[Ian Schwartzman]

My deal. Here's the difference.

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

Okay. Because this is.

[Eyl]

I just saw you posted a Netflix.

[Ian Schwartzman]

Yeah, I, I posted something. I wanted to just show people the.

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

Netflix logo on our show promoting the upcoming events.

[Ian Schwartzman]

We were actually lucky enough to. To have the privilege to talk about the new Jake Paul Anthony Joshua fight. That's December 19th, this Friday on Netflix.

[Eyl]

And.

[Ian Schwartzman]

Yeah, we weren't part of these announcements of. We're going to be putting our content on Netflix. I love Netflix. I think they're a great platform. I think they've captured our generation. I think they're absolutely competition to any platform you could put in the, in the, the air around them. And a cultural staple that will not be going anywhere anytime soon. What I think is genius. That. Let me, Let me slow down. We didn't do a deal where our content is going to Netflix yet. Our deal that we did with Netflix was. It was like an advertising partnership. You know, we have partnerships. It has nothing to do with our content being on Netflix.

[Eyl]

So it's just the content. Your content is not on Netflix. Netflix has their logo on it.

[Ian Schwartzman]

Not yet. No, not yet.

[Eyl]

So Netflix just put the logo on your show? Well, you just have a second.

[Ian Schwartzman]

Original integrations for shows that.

[Eyl]

It's a commercial. It's a commercial.

[Ian Schwartzman]

We're doing commercials.

[Eyl]

You have a commercial for Netflix?

[Ian Schwartzman]

No, no, no, no.

[Co-host or Guest (Financial Literacy Expert)]

Lower third.

[Ian Schwartzman]

No, no, we did. Lower third is just One of the, the branded pieces of content, but we did an integration deal with them where when we agree on an event or a show or a doc or a movie that we both like and feel like reaches an audience that can be impactful through our show, that we do business together. That's it. I'm not going to get any deeper into the business.

[Eyl]

No, but what does that mean? You're running a commercial?

[Ian Schwartzman]

It means that we, that they, that they talk to us individually. No, no, they talk to me.

[Eyl]

I get that part. I'm just saying. On the Joe Button podcast, right?

[Ian Schwartzman]

Yeah, you.

[Eyl]

I have a. I see a Netflix thing on there.

[Ian Schwartzman]

Yes, the logo. You mean the Netflix logo.

[Eyl]

Netflix logo. Yeah. Yeah. So you have like a five minute part of the Joe Button podcast.

[Ian Schwartzman]

I think it was like 20 minutes the other day.

[Eyl]

When you're talking about the fight and we don'.

[Ian Schwartzman]

Have to do 20. Listen, I don't want to get into the, the details of my deal structure. The point is that we have a partnership with them. You just saw a first iteration of it. It's us talking about the Jake Paul Anthony Joshua fight. That's exclusively on Netflix and that was the extent of it. Yeah, that's it for now.

[Eyl]

But the content is not on Netflix.

[Ian Schwartzman]

No, no.

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

So that transition from. And you spoke about it earlier and the transition from we're not doing ads to now we are taking ads.

[Ian Schwartzman]

No, we're doing partnership.

[Eyl]

Partners.

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

Partnerships do.

[Ian Schwartzman]

Partnerships. Ads are like one off. Ads are like, hey, this Friday, December 19th, catch the Jake Paul Anthony Joshua fight. Only on Netflix. I'm Joe Budden. We don't do that.

[Eyl]

But you have an integrated conversation that's organic.

[Ian Schwartzman]

Yes, that. It's not just integrated, it's very much collaborative.

[Eyl]

Interwoven.

[Ian Schwartzman]

It's very interwoven.

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

Yeah, Good work. Right.

[Ian Schwartzman]

We have a very bespoke situation with everyone we work with.

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

Because before the Netflix, I was thinking prize picks. And the way that was done was very interwoven. And it makes me think of, especially for creators, how business begets more business. Right. And so if that relationship works, it's a proven model and test to say, look, we're good at doing this.

[Ian Schwartzman]

You know, I know shows that have 25 ad sponsors. I can't listen to their show. There's a lot, I mean, I would say 90% of the podcasts out there now that choose to turn on stitched advertising or take on dozens of partners. I can't. I know the show. I just can't tell you what products or businesses those shows are. Behind because they're flooded with bullshit. We went the other way. You don't see how little we shove down people's throats so that when we actually talk about something, you're gonna know we believe in it and that it's an actual added layer of value to our listeners and viewers. You can be assured if we get behind something, it's because we believe in it. I've been offered every check from every business that you see on every other podcast, and we've turned it down because it's going to disrupt the experience. At some point, podcasters, media personalities, networks, have to make a decision. What's more important, what is more valuable, the experience or this check today. And sometimes people miscalculate and they think the check, oh, it'll help me make more money, it'll help me up my production. They're lying. It's all ego driven. The truth is, if you can't keep the audience engaged and happy, eventually the audience getting upset and moving off your platform will cost you all the checks you're being offered.

[Eyl]

Well, you also deliver content differently, too.

[Ian Schwartzman]

Yes.

[Eyl]

Your show is not based around guests.

[Ian Schwartzman]

Yeah.

[Co-host or Guest (Financial Literacy Expert)]

No.

[Eyl]

The show has a revolving cast of characters.

[Ian Schwartzman]

Yes, it does.

[Eyl]

With no disrespect to anybody. That's. But let's just be honest. That's what happened. That's what happened. That's what happens.

[Ian Schwartzman]

I agree with that, and I'm so grateful.

[Eyl]

So it's not like you're locked in like you locked into Joe Button and then the surrounding other people. It could be Mona one day. It could be Queen's flip. It could be Ish. It could be Roy. Maury. Like they. They haven't. Who.

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

No, no.

[Ian Schwartzman]

Huh?

[Eyl]

Marlon Roy.

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

Get it? Well, you're saying in the totality of the show. Yeah.

[Ian Schwartzman]

Oh. Oh. You're saying over the life of it.

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Ian Schwartzman]

Oh, no, I. When you. You said Roy. I didn't know. Yeah. Roy Woods Jr. And Rory.

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

Roy Jr. Is wild. Shout out to our guys.

[Ian Schwartzman]

So shout out to Maury Povich.

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

This guy.

[Eyl]

But that's a. That's a You. I don't think there's any other show that does that, to my knowledge, that like a high profile.

[Ian Schwartzman]

We're the SNL of 20, 25 of this generation, where the. The office meets SNL.

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

That's good.

[Ian Schwartzman]

Where.

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

That's a good one.

[Ian Schwartzman]

We put. We're a platform. Like, we hope you use us and then go off and do your own thing.

[Eyl]

So that's. That's the thing. You're Not. You're not going to be here for forever.

[Ian Schwartzman]

No, we will be here forever.

[Eyl]

No, I'm just not. I'm talking about the people and cast of character.

[Ian Schwartzman]

I don't think so. I hope. I hope people go off and do their own thing and then want to come back as like, you saw that Eddie Murphy doc.

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

Yeah. Loved it.

[Ian Schwartzman]

Amazing, right?

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

Loved it.

[Ian Schwartzman]

So such an incredible piece of art. But like. Like that, where people are products of snl, they go off, do their own thing and then it's like this big deal when they come revisit the set again and, you know, do a monologue or like, I hope that's the long term play with. What we're building is that we help people launch into all their best capabilities and then they look at us like we were this trampoline for them.

[Eyl]

Do. Do they know that you.

[Ian Schwartzman]

You.

[Eyl]

That was extremely insightful what you just said. As far as snl, I'm wondering, do they know that I said in order.

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

For that to want to come back, they got. I don't.

[Ian Schwartzman]

I don't think everyone wants to come.

[Eyl]

Back for two years. I'm going do my thing. I'm going get busy. I don't know if they know that.

[Ian Schwartzman]

Like I said, I think the industry has trained most of our talent and best creatives to hold on to things as tight as they can for as long as they can, because it represents security financially. The truth is everything's. Nothing's forever. And sometimes it's better to get what serves you best and then move forward and know that you did something special somewhere and you could always revisit it.

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

But a part of it is. In SNL would be. Is a good comparison, now that I think about that, is that there's the grooming and the expectation. Like, that's going to happen. Yeah, right. So, like, is that part of the process too? Like, I don't know. But there's not a writer's room for this. Right.

[Ian Schwartzman]

Like, some of those writers, not a traditional writer's room, but we do have like a whiteboard. And you know, Corey can tell you, like, that's part of every episode is. Is watching the cast go up to the whiteboard and show their contributions. And I've seen Joe and other cast members be like, ah, that's not good. That's. Or that's really good. Let's do that at the top. Let's put this at the. There is a process. Is it a traditional writer's room? Absolutely not. But there is a writer's room. Actually, it's just not the conventional way you would expect a writer's room.

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

Yeah, I'm only referring to that in sense of, like, yes, those people become cast members. Those cast members come in with the expectation, like, this is the platform that's going to get me to the next piece. Right. Not in a sense anymore in terms of SNL, but in that. That piece for sure, in the 80s and the 90s was like, here's a launch board for me to now become.

[Ian Schwartzman]

Hopefully, I think that's happening in real time. I think people are. I think people are coming to that conclusion as they get more time and experience around us. And I really love seeing that. That evolution, because there was a. There was a different kind of pressure on Joe and I when it was like, everyone who comes here, this is their everything. That's. It's like. It's almost weird. It's because most people in our industry are so reliant on money. That's all they're really focused on. And I'm not that this is not applicable to the current cast. I'm just saying in general, that's kind of the model that. That our business works on. And truly, like, I want everyone around us to soak up the things that we're doing. The good, the. The failures. It's like growing up, man. Right. Like, you have parents and your parents, you get one of two views of your parents. You get the things you want to replicate the good stuff, and then you get the stuff that you don't like that they did, that you hope you take and say, I won't repeat that with my kids or with my life. And I hope the cast and everyone that works with us does that for themselves, because I want to see everyone go on. I can't wait for someone that's a part of the show to do something bigger than what we've done. That's going to be a hat tip to us. That's not a threat. That's a beautiful thing. I always said this. I. I like that everyone has moved on and that that is no longer with us and have their own shows, have their own business, have their. It says a lot about what we provided.

[Eyl]

You know, do you think that there's any real value in podcasts?

[Ian Schwartzman]

Oh, my God, the biggest.

[Eyl]

Not value as far as monetary, I'm talking about.

[Ian Schwartzman]

Yes.

[Eyl]

All right. I had a conversation with Jim Jones, and I pretty much told him that I think that hip hop was a very destructive force in our community for a very long period of time. Paraphrasing.

[Ian Schwartzman]

Yeah.

[Eyl]

And I think that podcasting is replacing hip hop, where there's value in some level. I don't listen to podcasts, but the vast majority, in my opinion, is not helping.

[Ian Schwartzman]

No, it's not.

[Eyl]

It's dumbing down society, and it's not. It's not. There's no value in it.

[Ian Schwartzman]

Okay, this go. This to me, is something where I think I could relate it to music. It all depends on what you're looking for. If you want to hear dumb, there's dumb out there.

[Eyl]

But that's what's getting. But the music, once again, the music.

[Ian Schwartzman]

I know that's what gets promoted.

[Eyl]

That's what gets promoted.

[Ian Schwartzman]

But hold on, I'm with you. But there's more optionality now than ever. More people picking up microphones, putting out their theories, their interests. It's not necessarily podcast. I think that word is limiting to. Okay, there's creators out there that are talking, making videos and making original content about just about everything in the world. Educate everything. Like, for. For me, you guys were the first of a show that served educational food for thought in the financial space that I felt like, was, like, revolutionary. It was the first of its kind where I was interested in it. Maybe it was your approach, maybe it was your tone, maybe it was your knowledge, Maybe it was a mix of all of it. But I was actually interested to. To see how you guys were going to build and mold this thing the same way you guys popped out. I think there's dozens of other creators that offer really cool insight into everything. And yeah, 90% of it's going to be garbage, just like music. But I do think there's value in it. I think there's value in really educated, interested people that put time and energy into shit they love giving you a. A taste of their brain.

[Eyl]

But people really doing that, though. Yes. I feel like the vast majority of people looking at, like, music, at a certain point, music stopped being a craft and it became a hustle. And it's like, it's always going to.

[Ian Schwartzman]

Be a hustle though, man.

[Eyl]

And it's like, yo, I could just get in front of a microphone and just.

[Ian Schwartzman]

That ends. The first time they run into an obstacle, they're gone. So we don't have to worry about them. I'm saying let's look at the people that actually building catalog of interesting shit. If we focus on negative, we're going to find negative. It's like. It's like with a relationship, you want to find something that's going to piss you off about Your significant other. You look deep enough, you're going to find something.

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

Yeah, you, you said once that the podcast space was a bubble.

[Ian Schwartzman]

Is what a bubble? Oh, yeah, it's popped already.

[Co-host or Guest (Financial Literacy Expert)]

And it's popped.

[Ian Schwartzman]

You're going to see a crumble right now.

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

So that leads me to that.

[Ian Schwartzman]

Yeah, it's crumbling already right now.

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

So then the what rises to the top? Is it the value? Is it the creativity? Who are the, the, the sub genre people that will rise are the ones who are the unicorns or the new creators out here that are about to come?

[Ian Schwartzman]

It's the people who set themselves up for success. They could be right now, it could be the guy with a thousand views an episode. Not a thousand subscribers, a thousand views an episode, but is genuinely putting in the investigative time, doing the research, giving you information that has value. Those people are going to rise. Those creators are going to succeed into the future. What has popped is the hustle for a quick bag. To me, that is over because these big companies aren't interested in one show. They're interested in, in doing data digging. And the only way to do that is to go to like an Iheart or Spotify and go, hey, Give me your 50 biggest shows. Give me your 100 biggest shows. Let's, let's watch how this plays out for eight months to a year. We'll have all the information we need. After that, we'll cut everyone from the deal and we'll go sign the cream of the crop.

[Eyl]

And that's what I was talking.

[Ian Schwartzman]

That's what I think.

[Eyl]

A friend of mine at that network, and he was saying, like, people come to him, like a lot of rappers, they ask him, like, you know, and he's like, look, if this was during the pandemic, I could have definitely gave you a million dollars at one point. He's like, but this is different now. Like, you know, money is dried up. There's more saturated. Like, the money is not there. So now you have to bet on yourself. It's not even like out of luxury. I want to bet on myself because I believe myself. Like, you have to bet on yourself because there's nothing, the same money that's floating around as far as the advertising deal structure. So you can't even get a good deal if, even if you want to. A lot of these people.

[Ian Schwartzman]

Let me give you a good analogy. I was just talking to my barber the other day and this was like, great timing. Shout out to my barber, Brian. He, him and I have really good talks. When he comes to cut my Hair. He was telling me about his barbershop that he owns. He has 10 different barbers and his business is based off of two different things. And this immediately struck me as this is the podcast business. Two different forms of business. One is walk ins, people that walk off the street into the barbershop. And the other side of the business is each barber's book of business, long term clientele that they build relationships with over time. And I thought, oh my God, that's podcasting. We have a bunch of people that have entered the space that are waiting for walk ins. And those are the sponsors, those are Spotify's and Netflix's coming with deals. And then you have the barbers that have been in the game for 20 years, that have 300 people in their Rolodex that never miss a haircut every month. And when he was saying it to me, I was like, holy shit, that's podcasting. The people that you're seeing infiltrate the market now. They're here today and gone tomorrow. Those are the barbers waiting for the walk in, the people that answer your question that we're going to see. When are the podcasts that have been building a Rolodex and have been learning the business and are figuring out how they could survive whether there is rain, snow, pandemic, shut down, no ad money, they'll figure it out. That's who we're gonna see rise. And I just thought it was important because when he said it to me about his barbers, I was like, that's exactly how I feel about what's going on in podcasting right now. So I wanted to shout out Brian, because that struck me like little things like that really resonate with me.

[Eyl]

You touched on it. But I saw you putting your story today. You said, the deal number is not the real number. The real number is what they make off of you once they have your data.

[Ian Schwartzman]

There you go. That's self explanatory. We were talking about this before. The deal number is the number that you agree to to do the work that's outlined. The real number is, it's two separate things. It's the money they make above and beyond what they pay you, the company that hires you or does a licensing deal or acquisition deal with you. And then it's the money they make using the information that you provided them through your term to then resell to a hundred different companies to help those companies function in their businesses. And it could be products, they could be selling it off to hardware products, they could be selling companies they could be selling it off to other streamers. They could be selling it off to other podcast businesses. Data centers, they recycle that data that gets sold and flipped every month to a hundred different companies. That's where the real money is. You don't hear about all the data center. I mean, like, this is where, like, yes, data center infrastructure is a big deal in general. Not just for, forget podcasting. But data centers are important. Why? Because they, the data centers provide information that give a blueprint to what consumers want. And like, that's marketing. That's, that's the, the, the easiest way into understanding human culture and human behavior. That's really where the value is, understanding behavior.

[Eyl]

Behavioral science.

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

That's a fact. We talked about the Patreon piece.

[Eyl]

Yeah.

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

It started as advisory and now that you said that, you know that your partner's there, I wonder when you guys look at the network as a totality.

[Ian Schwartzman]

Yeah.

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

Are you interested in adding new talent or are you going with the route of we're going to create internal ip. When we see like an Ian and Mark show and other shows, what is the strategy with the expansion of the network?

[Ian Schwartzman]

Okay, so what Joe and I really honed in on was we have what we need right this second. Let's double and triple down on stuff that we could do in house, which is the birth of Pod Wives, which is, you know, each of us that are on that show and our significant others, disaster. I mean, it's a successful show, but disaster. I'll leave out why. And then there's the Ian and Mark show, which is more like a sketch comedy show with me and Mark Lamont Hill, us getting in the way of trying to. Getting in the way of each other trying to create a sitcom. Like that's the, the log line of it.

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

Office feel.

[Ian Schwartzman]

Yeah, exactly. It's like an office feel. And what we decided to do was create these shows internally that work first. Let's, let's not. Let's stop reaching outward. Let's stop out outsourcing and bringing new people in and let's see what we could do with the people we already have. And so that's phase one. Do I think we're going to get to a place where we're bringing in outside talent to do one off projects or different shows? I do think that'll happen eventually. I just know we're not rushing into it. You know, like there's no race to, to quantity. There's race to quality. We could do a lot with a little.

[Eyl]

But okay, going forward in the Future. Looking forward in the future.

[Ian Schwartzman]

Yeah.

[Eyl]

You obviously manage musicians.

[Ian Schwartzman]

Yes.

[Eyl]

Are you going to go into this space where you're going to be a consultant manager for podcast?

[Ian Schwartzman]

I don't know what I'm gonna do exactly. I've been offered. I don't need it, but I've been offered financing to like create a multimedia management company at scale. Like, think about like a. Like a Roc Nation for podcast. Podcast.

[Eyl]

Like a violator.

[Ian Schwartzman]

Like a violator. Yeah.

[Eyl]

Well, streamers and podcasters and content creators.

[Ian Schwartzman]

Yeah, I've been. I've been approached about that and I've thought about that. Right now I'm not interested in that right now. I'm focused on what I'm doing and I like staying boutique. My partner Keeb and I are, you know, step in step, just focused on what we can focus on and build today. A lot of times people drown in opportunity and I don't want to do that. I'll always have the ability to expand, but I won't have the ability to recapture where I am in the moment right now. So I want to focus on it because I feel like it's historic and we're changing the landscape forever and that takes all my attention. So, yeah, maybe one day, but not now.

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

I see it. We went through his whole interview and as we were talking prior to this, I realized how integral DJ Premier was in this whole story. So I want to shout out.

[Ian Schwartzman]

DJ Premier is the best ever, man. The one of the greatest people on earth first. The nicest guys and most iconic composers, producers, artists to ever land on planet Earth. And I am so grateful and lucky to be in his presence without him. None of this.

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

You Parks. Yeah, obviously that you get to meet you, that's everything.

[Ian Schwartzman]

Well, I should go back. Papoose, the very first artist I ever managed, Preem saw me working with Pap and. And that's how he reached out to have me start managing him. So I got Pap's blessing to go into that. Yeah, so it's really. Without Pap, I wouldn't have pre. But yes, Pream is like, no pun intended, kicked in the door for everything else, you know, so.

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

Incredible.

[Ian Schwartzman]

Yes.

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

Now, the Nas album was Joe Light Years. Light Years.

[Ian Schwartzman]

See how we work that in with the family too. We got Joe in there for the exclusive interview. I'm very proud to play a role in. In getting the Nas and DJ premiere album out. Shout out. Peter Bitten Bender, Mass Appeal.

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

Shout out to Pete.

[Ian Schwartzman]

Yeah, man. It's been an ongoing conversation for years. I've managed DJ Premier for 15 years. And every year we talk about, we talked about getting the Nas and Pre B album out. So to finally lock in about a little over a year ago and start seeing the sessions come to life. I used to talk as a kid about how much I love Nas and I'm lucky enough to say that we got one of the most mythical desired hip hop projects in history out in the world. The album's called Light Years. Please listen to it, enjoy it, let it live with you, and I hope people like it. I appreciate you fellas.

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

Oh, too easy.

[Eyl]

Appreciate you, man.

[Ian Schwartzman]

Hopefully we didn't upset anyone. That wasn't my intention. Get your business straight.

[Eyl]

All right, my brother. Appreciate you, man. Thank you.

[Ian Schwartzman]

Thank you for having me. Oh my God.

[Eyl]

It's a wrap.

[Ian Schwartzman]

Thank you.

[Co-host or Guest (Financial Literacy Expert)]

Yeah, yeah.

[Co-host or Guest (Podcast Industry Expert)]

Earners.

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