How Lecrae Built His Music Empire: Secrets to Independent Success & Balancing Faith with Music

Summary

Earn Your Leisure Podcast: How Lecrae Built His Music Empire

Episode Overview
Earn Your Leisure, hosted by Rashad Bilal and Troy Millings, delves deep into the financial and entrepreneurial journeys within the entertainment and sports industries. In the episode titled "How Lecrae Built His Music Empire: Secrets to Independent Success & Balancing Faith with Music," the hosts sit down with renowned Christian hip-hop artist Lecrae to explore his path to success, the interplay between his faith and music, and his strategies for building an independent music empire.

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1. Lecrae’s Musical Journey and Faith Transformation

Lecrae begins by sharing his unique upbringing, highlighting the influence of his mother's free-thinking approach and the absence of a traditional religious environment. Despite growing up in Houston's Third Ward, his mother ensured he was a free thinker, exposing him to diverse philosophical and political ideologies rather than strict religious teachings.

Quote:
"Hip hop raised me, you know what I'm saying?"
— Lecrae [07:31]

His musical journey took a pivotal turn during his college years at the University of North Texas, where a Bible study invitation introduced him to faith. This spiritual awakening transformed his approach to music, leading him to blend authentic Christian messages with mainstream hip-hop, a niche that was previously unexplored.

Quote:
"I am authentically Christian, but I'm authentically hip hop."
— Lecrae [06:06]

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2. Entrepreneurship and Building an Independent Label

Facing rejection from major labels for being "too Christian" or "too edgy," Lecrae took the entrepreneurial route by founding his own independent label. This decision was inspired by the Houston rap scene's entrepreneurial spirit, where artists sold music directly from their trunks, exemplifying hustle and self-reliance.

Quote:
"They said, it’s too Christian. Take it to the gospel label... So I said, oh, neither one of them want me. Let me create my own lane."
— Lecrae [11:25]

Starting with seed capital from partners, Lecrae navigated the complexities of setting up an LLC, trademarking, and building a brand from scratch. This hands-on approach allowed him to maintain creative control and stay true to his vision.

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3. Marketing Strategies and Audience Building

Lecrae emphasizes the importance of understanding and nurturing a niche audience. By conducting focus groups and leveraging the power of social media platforms like YouTube and iTunes, he effectively transitioned from physical CD sales to digital distribution, catering to a younger, more tech-savvy audience.

Quote:
"If you're not engaged on social media, what they're telling me is they're not willing to do the work."
— Troy Millings [35:35]

He highlights the shift from traditional playlisting to the dominance of social media in shaping music trends, underscoring the need for artists to adapt to ever-evolving platforms to stay relevant.

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4. Balancing Faith and Mainstream Appeal

One of Lecrae's significant challenges was balancing his Christian faith with the mainstream hip-hop culture. He strategically blended faith-based messages with universally relatable themes, ensuring his music resonated with a broad audience without alienating his core fanbase.

Quote:
"I want to take my people with me. Talk about the story of when you left the club and you was feeling empty."
— Troy Millings [54:33]

By creating songs that addressed common human experiences through a faith-based lens, Lecrae maintained authenticity while appealing to mainstream listeners.

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5. Touring and Fanbase Development

Touring plays a crucial role in Lecrae's strategy for building a dedicated fanbase. He advocates for independent touring, starting with smaller venues to create intimate connections with fans and gradually scaling up as the artist's following grows. This approach ensures sustainability and fosters long-term loyalty.

Quote:
"You can't be afraid to start small, smaller venues... a little bit more, a little bit more."
— Troy Millings [42:17]

By investing in high-quality performances and engaging directly with audiences, Lecrae ensures that his tours not only generate revenue but also strengthen his community.

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6. Spiritual Leadership and Mentorship

Lecrae underscores the importance of spiritual grounding and mentorship in his leadership approach. He incorporates spiritual retreats, prayer sessions, and Bible studies to ensure that both he and his artists remain connected to their faith, fostering a supportive and growth-oriented environment.

Quote:
"We're always in the people business. If you take care of people, they'll take care of you."
— Troy Millings [22:55]

This holistic approach to leadership ensures that the artists under his label are not only professionally successful but also spiritually fulfilled.

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7. Personal Stories: Reconnecting with His Father

A poignant moment in the conversation involves Lecrae sharing his experience reconnecting with his estranged father after three decades. Through therapy and personal growth, Lecrae approached this reunion with forgiveness and understanding, emphasizing the healing power of faith.

Quote:
"If God can forgive me, how can I not forgive this man?"
— Troy Millings [69:00]

This personal narrative highlights the profound impact of faith on Lecrae's life choices and relationships, reinforcing his message of redemption and resilience.

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8. Future Plans and Legacy

Looking ahead, Lecrae is focused on building a lasting legacy by creating opportunities for others and educating his community about financial literacy and investment. His involvement with Collab Capital aims to raise $50 million for Black entrepreneurs, reflecting his commitment to empowering others and fostering economic growth within his community.

Quote:
"Legacy is what you leave in people."
— Troy Millings [71:00]

By prioritizing education and investment, Lecrae aims to ensure that his influence extends beyond music, contributing to broader societal advancements.

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9. Industry Insights and the Future of Hip-Hop

Lecrae and the hosts discuss the evolving landscape of hip-hop, addressing concerns about the genre's direction and the importance of maintaining balance between creativity and commercial success. They advocate for a revival of authentic storytelling and substance within the genre to prevent its decline.

Quote:
"Hip hop runs the risk of following the same pattern as rock and roll... there's no texture to it. It's gone."
— Troy Millings [51:44]

This discussion underscores the necessity for artists to preserve the cultural and lyrical integrity of hip-hop to sustain its relevance and impact.

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Conclusion

In this insightful episode, Lecrae provides a comprehensive look into his journey as an independent artist balancing faith and mainstream success. From building his label and cultivating a dedicated fanbase to fostering spiritual growth and empowering his community, Lecrae exemplifies the intersection of entrepreneurship and authenticity in the music industry. His strategies and personal experiences offer valuable lessons for aspiring artists and entrepreneurs alike, emphasizing the importance of resilience, adaptability, and genuine connection.

Notable Quotes:

• "Hip hop raised me, you know what I'm saying?" — Lecrae [07:31]
• "If you're not engaged on social media, what they're telling me is they're not willing to do the work." — Troy Millings [35:35]
• "Legacy is what you leave in people." — Troy Millings [71:00]
• "Hip hop runs the risk of following the same pattern as rock and roll." — Troy Millings [51:44]

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Stay Connected
To learn more about Lecrae and his endeavors, follow him on social media or visit his official website. Stay tuned to Earn Your Leisure for more in-depth conversations with industry leaders and trailblazers.

Transcript

[Lecrae]

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[Host 1]

All right guys, welcome back. EYL. Yes, we are in the studio, back off of Invest Fest. But one of the highlights of Invest.

[Host 2]

Fest, that's a fact.

[Host 1]

If you didn't catch his interview with Big Facts, then you definitely missed a great one. Hopefully they might put that out, I don't know. But Lecrae, I mean, you know, we look at the music industry, somebody that's changed the game as far as the content is, is important. We'll talk about the category of the content. But yeah, in a time where, you know, people have complained about a lot of negative influences in music and how it it influences people, especially young people, I think that it's positive to have A balance. So he's been able to do it. And also an entrepreneur running a record label. 20. We just talked about 27 awards and counting from Grammys to let all the.

[Lecrae]

Lost people say Amen to everything and.

[Host 1]

Just been, you know, a very interesting story. So thank you for joining us.

[Host 2]

Yeah, absolutely. I'm excited to be here, boy.

[Lecrae]

Appreciate it. We saw each other in passing at Best Festival. I was like, my brother, I appreciate you so much.

[Host 2]

Yeah, man, I had a blast. It was a phenomenal time, man.

[Host 1]

Thank you.

[Host 2]

Phenomenal.

[Host 1]

So for the people that may have heard about you but not totally familiar with your story.

[Host 2]

Yep.

[Host 1]

So, all right, you. I want to make sure I say this correctly.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

You are a hip hop artist first and foremost, but your content usually leans towards Christian rap, right?

[Host 2]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's so many ways to spin that. This is what I always try to tell people. I am authentically Christian, but I'm authentically hip hop. I'm kind of like, if Outkast in the books of Moses came together. You know what I'm saying? So. So it's kind of like sometimes it's a category for people, but that's the essence of hip hop. For a lot of folks, it's always been this outlier that people didn't quite understand. And then it was like, okay, hip hop is now mainstream. But then it was like, southern rappers. What is that? And then it's like, now you got Outkast and it's mainstream now. The south is, like, on the forefront of it. And I look at it the same way. You know what I'm saying? It's like Wu Tang was spitting 5% gems. And it's like, okay, that's the perspective they come from. This is the perspective I'm coming from. But at the end of the day, it's hip hop. You know what I mean? So.

[Host 1]

Yeah, that's a good point.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

Honestly, I never really thought about it like that.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

I never heard, like, Rakim be classified as a 5% rapper.

[Host 2]

Exactly. Yeah, exactly.

[Lecrae]

Yeah. It's hip hop music. It just has a faith base.

[Host 2]

That's right.

[Host 1]

Which. That's any. Anything that you do is going to influence your life that you're living.

[Host 2]

Exactly.

[Host 1]

Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, that's just. That's just common sense. Like, you want to rap about the things that you do on a daily basis. So. All right, so how did. How did this come about for you? As far as you're from Houston originally, then you moved to. To the West Coast Yeah. So how. I'm assuming you grew up in a church?

[Host 2]

I didn't see. That's the crazy.

[Lecrae]

That's the part.

[Host 2]

Yeah. So my mom. My mom grew up in church, and she had a really negative experience. So it's like, very legally.

[Host 1]

The church.

[Host 2]

The church, yeah. So she had this real kind of rigorous. Like, she couldn't wear pants, makeup.

[Lecrae]

Okay.

[Host 2]

And she. This is in Houston, Third Ward. Houston. So it was really tough on her. And at the same time, she's also. The Black Panthers is feeding her free breakfast and teaching her these lessons. So she get in both of these worlds. And she like, wait a minute. So she like, I don't want my kid to have religion forced on them. So she raised me to be a free thinker. So as a kid, I'm reading Eldridge Cleaver, I'm reading autobiography, Malcolm X. I'm reading WB Du Bois. She like, nah, we not doing this religious stuff. You know, she was a hippie. You know, she got her little weed room and all of that, you know what I'm saying? So that was kind of the world. And she let me explore. And so I just. Hip hop raised me, you know what I'm saying? So that's just, you know, and it wasn't until I was a young adult going to a college Bible study that, you know, I had a full ride to University of North Texas. A girl invited me to a Bible study. I went, never heard any of this stuff before. And that's when the transition started to happen. And I always rapped, but now I had a different lens, so I didn't know gospel music, nothing. The first gospel album I ever listened to, as far as I'm concerned, was the Miseducation Lauryn Hill. So that's what I thought you do when you meet God. God, I thought you rapped like that. So that's what I started trying to do.

[Lecrae]

So this is late 90s.

[Host 2]

Yep.

[Lecrae]

Right. Because I feel like we're from the same generation.

[Host 2]

2000. Yep.

[Lecrae]

So you didn't. Obviously you didn't grow up listening to gospel music, but the hip hop era of that time.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

So Miseducation. That's interesting. I've never thought of it in that sense. Who else at this time is influencing you? Because I know you're big on Jay for a few reasons. Outcast.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

But who, like, what was it about the lyrics that said, you know what? I love what they're doing? Because at this time, people are talking about the negative impact that hip hop has had gangsta Music has just been introduced in the early 90s. Now we're getting the. The Bling era going.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

How do you say, all right, I like this. I'm listening to it. It's influencing me. Let me do something different.

[Host 2]

Yeah. So Tupac was probably my. He was like my dad. You know what I'm saying? Like, so he was so transparent and vulnerable. That vulnerability I wanted to communicate in my music. You know what I'm saying? Like, just the pain. He had a song called Papa Song where he talked about his relationship with his dad. My dad ran out on the family. You know, he was doing his dirt, had his run ins with the law. He was running with the Crips in Compton. And I never saw him after I was four years old. He was gone.

[Host 1]

Ever in life?

[Host 2]

Nah. I just saw him again for the first time in 2020, and we sat down and had a discussion for the first time. I filmed it and everything. So out in Cali. So hip hop was like, my dad. I was. These were the men who were raising me. I'm listening to these stories, and I was like, I want to impact people the way Pac is impacting me. After I met God and had my spiritual transformation, it was like, I'm still like this to this day, but it was, like, righteous and ratchet. So it was like, I still listen to the hood, the ratchet stuff, but I was trying to like, yo, I'm changing. I need to listen to Common now. I need to listen to. To live. I need to listen to most. I need to listen to Slum Village. Like, I need some positive, like, different type of focus in my music. And so that's kind of, you know, how I develop some of my. My craftsmanship. But even just talking about things that matter to me, but out feeling like I'm just trying to punch people over in the face with it. But just, like, it's. It's just who I am.

[Lecrae]

It's crazy that you referenced those albums, because at the same time, I'm listening to those albums. So, like, yeah, Common puts out B. Yeah. But you being obviously Houston, having some roots.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

I wonder how much Scarface played it, because at this time, the fix is coming out, and that whole album, classic album. He's talking about faith. He's talking about God, man.

[Host 2]

My drummer to this day says Scarface is his gospel music. He from Houston as well. Okay, so Houston. So the funny thing is Houston, the rap scene, when you from something and you around something, it doesn't have the same kind of influence on you. As people would think. So it was like the rap scene was everywhere. But hip hop to me was so global. I wanted to know what was happening with the west coast, the east coast, you know, I wanted to know all about that. Cause Houston, I could walk out the house and that's right there. Well, Houston taught me more than anything. And to this day, Chameleonaire is still one of my dudes. What it taught me more than anything is the hustle, is the entrepreneurship. Because everybody was selling their music out the trunk. It's why I have an independent label to this day, is because that's what I saw. You know, I went to school in Texas. My partners was from Houston. And you just saw how it worked. You saw entrepreneurship. So even with my first cd, I went to the major label. They said, it's too Christian. Take it to the gospel label. I went to the gospel label, they said, it's too edgy. Take it to the mainstream label. So I said, oh, neither one of them want me. Let me create my own lane, because that's what Houston had to do. So it was like, all right, we coming out the trunk with it. You know what I mean? And I have. It's a crazy story. How it popped off for me was I made the cd, I'm on my campus. I got a group of folks who rocking with me. I take it to the store trying to sell a box of CDs on consignment. They say, we'll take one. I give them one. And then I say, they say, yeah, if somebody buys it, then we'll, you know, maybe we'll buy some more. They I give them one. I send four people up there. They go, buy that one. They say, all right, we'll take five. I give them five. Within two hours, all five are gone. They don't realize I got 400 people.

[Host 1]

You're sending people.

[Host 2]

I got 400 people ready to come.

[Host 1]

Where's the 400 people from?

[Host 2]

From my cop. From my campus.

[Host 1]

People that, you know.

[Host 2]

Yeah, from my campus who rocking with me and supporting because I was putting in the work on the yard, on the campus. You know what I'm saying? And just.

[Lecrae]

What school you at?

[Host 2]

I'm at North Texas University of North Texas.

[Host 1]

Did you play sports?

[Host 2]

I tried to walk on a basketball team, but it was too much. It was too. Too much of a grind, you know?

[Host 1]

So what's called. You say you got a scholarship?

[Host 2]

I got a full scholarship in performing arts. Performing arts.

[Lecrae]

Makes sense.

[Host 1]

So, yeah, okay. So as far as the independent side of it, Right, what, what is, what's the steps that you took to actually have a label? Because it's one thing to press up CDs and sell them, right? Right. That, that's a hustle.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

But if you have a label, that's a business, right? So how do you just start a label?

[Host 2]

So obviously you need seed capital to really begin to do the work. My partner Ben, you know, he had another friend of ours, a friend of his, who, who was like, I got like five grand from my pops that we can invest into this. So with that 5,000, it was like, that's the lawyer drawing up, getting the trademark, the llc, all of those particular things, the logo, all of that, building it out. What we already had was a market base. So we already had a fan base, we had a market, we had good music because no one had ever heard anything like this before. Because I was blending the traditional sounds of hip hop with, with my faith. And it was like, what is this? You know what I mean? So we knew we had something. We had a focus group with the campus, you know what I'm saying? So the test market, the, the issue now was creating a business. And so after the business was created, you know, we still didn't really understand. No one went to business school, so we still didn't understand how it works. So I'm reading books, you know, the information is free. I'm reading Russell Simmons books, I'm reading everybody's books, trying to understand what this looks like. And from there was like, oh, we gotta put the UPC. We. First we were selling CDs without the UPC code. It is just like the UPC code on the back of the, the, the, the CD just, you know, the, the.

[Host 1]

Barcode, people like Sound skin.

[Host 2]

Exactly. You're just learning that and you just learn pieces of the game. I highly recommend, like if you gotta do it yourself, you'll learn the whole game. A lot of times artists will give their artistry to someone else and say, you figure it out, but you don't learn the game that way. So for us, it was doing it everything. I mean, literally, I'm mailing every CD, I'm mailing CDs to Australia and paying the fees on it and learning like, oh, I gotta figure out a different way to do this. And, and so, you know, it was just a step by step process. It was a slow burn, but it was, you know, slow grind, but a for show grind.

[Host 1]

And that was ninth.

[Host 2]

That was 2003, 2004.

[Host 1]

Yeah, that was, that's before Itunes?

[Host 2]

Yes.

[Host 1]

What's the trans you from the physical CDs to actually iTunes, PSP.

[Host 2]

Yeah. So that's the. That was a dope part, is we. We're young, so our audience is young, you know, because generally your audience is like five to 10 years younger than you. Right. So our audience is young. So transitioning to digital wasn't a hard thing because we had a young audience. Older audiences tend to struggle with, like, change. So for us, it was like, what social media is today back then was YouTube. So we just was on YouTube. We making content. Content. Here go a EPK. Here go the story of how this song was made. And our audience is eating it up. And then we saying, go to itunes and go get this. You know what I mean? And that's how mainstream started to pay attention. Because we didn't categorize ourselves in a Christian category. We put ourselves in the hip hop category.

[Lecrae]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

So our fan base was. It was a groundswell, and then it just jumped up. And all of a sudden people like, yo, who it? What is the Lecrae? Why is Lecrae beating Nicki Minaj? I had the barbs coming at me crazy, like, what'd you be there at? On the charts? On the itunes Charts. Yeah.

[Lecrae]

I heard your name before I ever knew who you were.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

Because I just kept saying I was. I was. I mean, I go to church. I was going to church every Sunday and I kept hearing it. I got a few questions, though, because it's interesting. You said mainstream. And I'm thinking to myself, people that go to church, the population is getting older and older and older. I don't see as many young people going, so that's interesting. So how are you being received by church going? The traditional gospel art, the Fred Hammonds, the Hezekiah Walkers, who they're looking at like, that's the music we listen to when we go into church. Whereas your approach is like, that's what I'm gonna listen to.

[Host 2]

Right.

[Lecrae]

This almost feels like this is secular music.

[Host 2]

That's exactly what it was.

[Lecrae]

How was that reception early on?

[Host 2]

But see, it was like N.W.A. it was. It's like the more you say we are wrong, the more the young folks want it, you know? So we was getting. Oh, they hated us. They was like, this is the devil. Rap and God don't go together. And look at they clothes and the tattoos and, you know.

[Host 1]

But who was saying that?

[Host 2]

The older pastors and churches. You know what I'm saying? So even one dude went on, made a series about us and how we was. People should not be listening to our music and steamrolling it. And. But that was fuel because it just made younger folks say, oh, I gotta check this out. What is this? You know what I'm saying?

[Lecrae]

Exactly what happens.

[Host 2]

And that's what. That's what. What, what. What ended up happening for us. But we faced a lot of backlash. Oftentimes what would happen, it would be like a youth pastor or somebody like that who was like, yo, my kids rock with it. We gonna bring you out to do something.

[Host 1]

Or.

[Host 2]

It would be like some hood outreach, you know, where it wasn't connected to a church. It would just be like somebody who is, like, just trying to impact the neighborhood, and they would bring us out, and then that's how it was spreading. But. But also, there was a sports camp in Branson, Missouri, in Missouri called Kids Across America. And this camp was for, like, inner city youth, and they was kids off the block. But they come into this camp to get this new experience, and our music is pumping through the speakers. So these kids like, yo, what is this? This is crazy. And they're loving it. So, of course, their leaders and, you know, guidance counselors are like, I gotta get this music back to them because it's connecting with them. And. And it just was like a tumbleweed effect, man. It just kept building.

[Lecrae]

So that. That's exactly how I got introduced.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

My pastor, he came from music. He had a music background.

[Host 2]

Okay.

[Lecrae]

He's a little bit younger. He comes from. He's from Queensland. So he's into hip hop.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

And I was like, that's the first time I heard it when I was in church. The other part of that question is, a lot of times in hip hop, you know, people are rapping about the environments that they're in.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

And so as you being faith based, I wonder what the environment around you is like. Because, like, I grew up and, like, as an adult, I was going to church, but none of my friends were going.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

And it was like, yeah, I can't do nothing on Sunday. Sunday I go to church.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

So how much did that did. Was there pressure? Or was it like, did people start conforming around you to say, look, he's doing something, we should probably join him? Or were people kind of, like, reluctant to be a part of this?

[Host 2]

So this was the crazy part. The. Because the black community oftentimes, you know, we. The white community's been around the monopoly board more times than we have. Right. So. Because we don't get as many chances around a monopoly Board. We're not as apt to change. We're a little tighter on things. We're like, wait a minute, I don't know. Because I. I'm first generation money. I can't be giving it away or, you know, things along those lines. So the white Christian community was like the first to really give me a chance to let me rock, you know, the black community was like, oh, no, this don't feel right. White Christian community was like, dude, yes, do something different, bro. Like, yeah, get a rapper. They had already done the Christian rock thing, so they bringing me out to these rock festivals and they got it's. I mean, it's 60,000 people out there, you know what I'm saying? Billy Graham speaking and all this type of stuff. So I'm like, I'm out there and I'm like the first encounter they've ever had with something like this. And they're just. They've been around the monopoly board a few more times. They got the extra money to invest in it. They'll take a risk, a chance. So they was giving me a chance to rock. And I did the same thing that Jay did with Linkin park or the same thing that Run DMC did with Aerosmith. And I started blending in some of they sounds with my song and I would make a remix just for that event. And then it was like gangbusters. So now I had this community rocking with me tough. And little by little, the black community was like, oh, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We. Okay, if it works, then we'll take it. You know what I mean? And it's understandable because, you know, we're a little more like, wait a minute, reserved with what we got.

[Host 1]

So, okay, as far as like being an independent artist, we've seen a lot of independent artists like Russ, even the Russell shout out to him where they've been able to make money. Especially like Russ, like, he's been able to make a lot of money, but I've never heard a Russ song played.

[Host 2]

Like on the radio or something like.

[Host 1]

That ever in life. Right? But he's. He's been able to cultivate a. A cult following, do shows, so merch, whatever, right? So a lot of people don't. They don't understand that. They're like, how can you. How could you. How can you be a successful artist if I. I don't. I've never seen this person. Right, so you, as independent artist, right, that has had a lot of success. What's your blueprint as far Know, maintaining your your know, making revenue while facing the challenges of not being like a quote unquote, mainstream artist.

[Host 2]

Yeah, I think, you know, they say niches get riches. So, you know, are you taking care of your niche? You taking care of your. Your space? I never believed that I was in any other business other than the people business. You're always in the people business. If you take care of people, they'll take care of you. So if you just look at this as a transactional situation, if you don't look at it as how can I benefit the person on the other side, consumer, from this B to C, how do I take care of them? Because then they gonna take care of me. So, man, we super serve our fans. You know what I'm saying? Like every T shirt, we just something small. Throw some jolly ranchers in a package. When you send it to them, they're like, yo, they sent me some candy. It's just, it's small, but it's like they feel considered, you know, doing Q. And as I was meet and greets with everybody when I first got started, you know, just to like, super serve the people that was coming to support me. And you got to realize if you're experiencing something, there's other people who are having a similar experience. So there's all, you're not alone. So how do you connect with the people who are dealing with or wrestling with or. Or experiencing the stuff you're experiencing? And that was how, you know, we did it. And that was the crazy, like, just like what you're saying with, like with Russ and everything. I had the number one album in the country, beat Maroon 5. And everyone's like, how, who is this? Who's this person? I don't know a single song. I didn't have no record on the radio. So everyone's scratching their head, like, why? It's because, man, I'm super serving my knee, my niche, you know what I'm saying? I'm like, I'm at everywhere they are. I'm there. I'm doing the shows, I'm doing the meet and greets, connecting with them. I'm sending out the packages. I'm having conversations. And I think a lot of times artists don't want to put in that work and do that hand to hand transaction to understand the market. That's another thing I come from. So when I first got out of school, I couldn't find a job, so I went to the cable car. I was a cable guy. You know, I'm in addicts fighting off Rats. You know what I'm saying? Installing cable. And I hated it so much that one day, the vice president came to give us a little motivational speech, like, hey, vice president of the cable company. You guys are superstars, stars. And I went up to her, and I was like, yo, you know, I got a background in marketing. You know, I went to school. Is it any way, you know, because my days off are Thursdays and Tuesdays and Thursdays. Is there any way I can come and intern for free? You know, whatever y'all need me to do? And she was like, oh, okay. So I went up into that building, and I just was soaking up game, Just soaking up games, soaking up to the point where they was like, oh, you. We got to hire you. You're not cable guy no more. So now I'm working in the marketing department at the cable company, you know, and soaking up more games, soaking up more games. So everything I'm soaking up focus groups, test markets, how to talk to people, you know, running a board meeting. This is all game. I'm soaking up. So by the time I start my own company, I have a prototype from a very successful cable company on certain little things. And I think it's just access to that information helps you to understand how to connect to. To. To a marketplace. I would.

[Host 1]

Some of those things that you learn.

[Host 2]

So one of the things which. Which we do now is, you know, do you have proof of concept? Right? So a lot of times, especially artists, will say, yo, my music's dope. Listen to me listen to music. How do you know it's dope? You got proof of concept. Like, you made it your product, whatever you created. Do you have proof of concept that it's that people want this, that it works? So, you know, proof of concept is. We tested it, and we got a good result. So what they tasked me with, they couldn't figure out why Hispanic people weren't watching this network. And it was like, they're not buying our package for, you know, the Latin community's not buying it. So I'm in Texas, and so I said, well, let me do a focus group, you know, because I've seen them do focus groups for other things. So I just say, yeah, let me get a. You know, get a bunch of the Latin community out here. Let me ask them some questions. And they. And I'm like, why don't y'all watch this? And it was like, it's Cuban. It's Puerto Rican. Is we're Mexican. And it was like, oh, y'all speaking to the wrong people. You know what I'm saying?

[Lecrae]

Yes. We speak Spanish in the same place.

[Host 2]

So it's like, all right. No proof of concept. That's why this package ain't working. Redo it. They redid it and made more networking for the Mexican American community. Bam. Took off like gangbusters. So same concept for me now is I'll take my artist, Limo Blaze. He's an afrobeat artist, a producer. Made this remix of a very popular song. It went viral on his ig. I said, they like this remix of this song. That's the sound. That's proof of concept, that this sound bass works. You need to rap over this. He raps over it, jumps up to top 40 afrobeat charts. You know what I'm saying? And it was just like, we already saw it worked. The market already said it worked. So do that. And that's one of the things I learned working.

[Host 1]

Have you ever done a focus group?

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

For music?

[Host 2]

Yeah, we do focus groups all the time. You do? Yeah.

[Lecrae]

So this is Reese.

[Host 1]

Random people.

[Host 2]

Yeah. So we'll do a test market. We'll have, like, fans. See, that's another way to super serve them as well, because now they're getting exclusive.

[Lecrae]

Let them hear it first.

[Host 2]

Exactly. So we'll get a group of fans. We'll say, yo, here's six songs. Rank them, you know what I mean? Like, and they'll be like, this one is this. This one's that. This one's this. And you got 2,000 fans. And they like, these are my top fives. And this is why. And this is why. So now you got feedback. You got proof of concept. Yeah. You in the office thought this was the joint. That ain't it.

[Lecrae]

I'm gonna stay there for a sec. Right, because it sounds like you're big on analytics.

[Host 2]

Oh, for sure.

[Lecrae]

Like, I can just hear it. What? The way you're talking. So what happens when you do the focus group? Right? Because sometimes it works, but sometimes you. You'll hear. And like you said, this ain't working. What are the lessons that you learning from that when it's like, all right, yeah, we tried this one. Didn't chart. What are we learning from this?

[Host 2]

Yeah, so one of the things you got to learn. One of the things I've learned is that the market's always changing and what? And. And even, like, the audiences are always changing, so you can't always bank on it. A case in point was, you know, I had a record with metro booming called hammer time, and at that point in Time. Everything on Rap Caviar that was doing well had Metro's tag at the beginning, you know what I'm saying? So it's like the top 10 songs got. If your Metro don't trust you or something, like, you know, yeah, your Metro on the chat, you. So it's like, all right, we're gonna. We're gonna. We gonna run this song. Because everything with Metro in it is taken off. We make the record, put it on Rap Caviar didn't work because what started to happen was ear fatigue. It wasn't the same thing. It didn't. Didn't work in the same way. Didn't move the needle like it did. The audience had kind of already moved on, but we didn't realize that, you know what I'm saying? So it's like, you got to understand, like, where are people? And that's why I keep younger people around me who are. Who are tapped in and attuned to what's going on, because you are looking at things from your vantage point and where you are in life. But meanwhile, the culture is moving a completely different way. So it's always just like, you know, who has their ear to what's going on and where is culture going and how can I be tapped into the culture? And if. And that's sociology. That's just understanding where people are. You know, all good marketers are sociologists and understand where culture is.

[Lecrae]

So you got the metro booming feature.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

But I wonder, as you're doing Reach Records and you obviously creating music, who's the first person from your background of influence of music that is receptive to it, that's accepted, accepting to it, and saying, like, this is a guy we need to rock with. Who's the first feature that's like, this is now about my life, about to change for me.

[Host 2]

Yeah, the person that. That. That tapped in early. Yeah, Don Cannon. Don Cannon, dj, You know, the gangsta grills, mixtapes, and all that type of stuff was popping. So I would say this kind of two. It's my guy, Street Symphony. So street and I went to school together. Street went to work for a Luda disturbing a piece. He's doing all this type of work. Street starts. He's like, man, God is showing up my life. I want to transition and do some different things. Craig, let's work together. He already was plugged with Don Cannon. He links me with Don Cannon, and we get the idea, like, yo, we need to do a mixtape. You know what I'm saying? What we gonna call it? Church clothes. Why we call it church clothes? Because everyone expects us to wear suit and tie, but we out here in jeans and tattoos and fitteds and we. These are church clothes. You know what I'm saying? So no one was putting. It was the first time anybody put, like, a Christian rap mixtape on, like, that Piff and all them type of sites, right? So Don Cannon is like, I'm with it. We, we. You know, I get beats from 9th wonder. I get. You know, I had met Kendrick a couple years prior. Me and Kendrick built a dope relationship. Kendrick does a little intro on my video for the song, and it crashes the mixtape website, you know what I'm saying? It was. They. The downloads were so crazy. One was our fans. Two was the intrigue. Because it's like, is this going to be dope? What is this going to be? So it's like people just intrigued wanting to listen to it. And, you know, that for us was like confirmation. It was like, yo, Don Cannon did the mixtape. You get. You hear him in the background. It's the mixtape era, too. So it's like. You hear him in the background and people like, what is this? 9th Wonder Beats? And it's like, yo, this is crazy. We never heard nothing like this before. And I think that's when people was really, like, tapped in. And then the. The second thing I would say was the catalyzer that pushed me again. I'm doing the work on the front end. So you. A lot of artists don't have what Malcolm Gladwell says they 10,000 hours. You know what I'm saying? 10,000 hours is gonna make you an expert at something. I had my 10,000 hours in, so by the time I got to this moment, this watershed moment, I was ready for it. And that watershed moment was my. My publicist at the time, Tasha Stout, got me on the BET Cipher for the Hip Hop Awards. They didn't know what category to put me in, so they put me in a Foreigner's category. So I'm in there with French dudes, Estelle, you know, from London. But I'm ready, you know, I've been groomed for this moment. That's my watershed moment. And they never heard nothing like it. I'm getting hit up, Royce the 5, all these rappers like, what is this? And that was when it was like, we own. You know what I mean?

[Host 1]

So as far as, like, you mentioned rap caviar.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

How important is that for artist's career to kind of get on those type of playlists? And how do you even get on that.

[Host 2]

Yeah. Playlisting is. That's another thing is, like, there's errors. I'm not gonna say it's not important, but what I will say is it's not as important as it once was. So it's like radio. Radio was once it. Like, if it's not radio, it's nothing. It's not moving a needle after radio. It was playlisting. Playlisting, was it. If it wasn't playlisted, then it wasn't moving the needle. Now it's social media, it's TikTok, it's reels. You know what I mean? If that's moving the needle. And so if. If you are not connected. Like, I wouldn't even sign an artist who doesn't have a social media following or platform, you know, because if they're not engaged on social media, what they're telling me is they're not willing to do the work. So it's like, nah, you want somebody to do the work for you, I'm not gonna do the work for you. You're gonna have to work yourself. So now I would say social media. And you got. The beautiful thing in. Where we are now as an industry is the floodgates are wide open. There's. Everyone is. Has equal opportunity, access. Make your music. Your test market is social media. They gonna let you know if it's dope. The only downside is that do you have the 10,000 hours to recreate what you did? And a lot of artists don't have that, you know, saying. It's like 5th just said it on a recent interview that he was going to sign designer, but designer only had that one song. And he was like, you don't. You don't have another one. I don't have any confidence you can even make another one. And so I tend to look for artists who have. They made it once, they made it twice. There's a consistency, there's a pattern of consistency. So if. If one of them pops off, I know they can do it again. They didn't put in the. The manpower in the hours.

[Lecrae]

How the artists that you're looking for.

[Host 2]

Yeah. Are they all faith based?

[Lecrae]

Faith based, absolutely. So they have to be faith based.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

The other part is that it's a challenge. Right. Social media is a challenge because, like you said, it's ever evolving. Algorithm change. How do you keep it authentic without making it corny? Right. When people hit church, they're like, yeah, I ain't come here for this. How do y'all manage to make it something that people want to tune into.

[Host 2]

It's category. It's categories. So, you know, I would say, you know, you got different iterations and different types of artists. So I got some artists who lean into it heavy. Like this song is like a worship rap record, you know what I'm saying? And they lean into it and there's an audience for that and we want them to do exactly that. I got other artists who, they have more of a mainstream presence, you know what I'm saying? And they are more creative, they blend it up. And if you listen, you might not know that's a Christian record. So like my buddy that we signed years ago, Andy Mineo, the song that we had that took off as a number one record, was one of the most streamed and it was viral on social media. Was coming in hot. Coming in hot. You know what I mean? Everybody hears the song, right? But Andy's the type of artist that's like, you not gonna know he's this faith based artist just on first. You gotta like get into his ecosystem to really kind of know where he's at with it, right? So, so it's still, it's clean, it's not negative. And it may not have a message right away, but it's something that still resonates with the, with the broader culture. Then I got artists in the middle where they can go over here or they can go over here. Like my artist, 1k few, he's. He got, he. He's from Atlanta. He got records with Zaytoven, with Honcho, but then he also got records with like a gospel artist. And so he can go in both spaces. And so you just, it's it. I let them be their authentic selves because otherwise it will come off corny.

[Lecrae]

The. To the artists, it's like a Honcho, for example, right? It. When y'all do the record, is it like yo with. You know, this is faith based or these like, yo, be yourself and we'll do you censor it. How do y'all, how do y'all approach that?

[Host 2]

So the crazy part is I think people kind of cater to where they think you are. Sometimes they overdo it, you know what I mean? Like they in their mind, they gotta come in there saying like, hallelujah, you know what I mean? And it's like, yo, yo, yo, yo, chill, chill, chill.

[Lecrae]

That was a Quavo Atlas.

[Host 2]

It's like, chill, chill, chill, chill, chill. Yo, yo, yo, fall back. You going too crazy. Just like, you know, like, chill. A lot of times we'll have a conversation and we'll just talk about it, talk it through, but it's rarely an issue. Mostly we try to create the songs that's neutral territory. So it's like, yo, let's talk about you got kids, I got kids. Let's talk about being a father, being a present father, how we didn't have that. Let's do a song about that. Like, let's not put you in a lane that's weird for you, and it's going to make it awkward. And I learned that the hard way because I did a record with Big Crit years ago called Mayday Fire Record. But in the record, you know, he's talking about his struggle with faith and wrestling with God and so on and so forth, and it kind of put him. He's talking to this audience that is not expecting to hear this coming from him, right? So they. This hyper religious people got Adam and was mad at him and, like, don't talk about this. And why would you do this? And, you know, kind of was off putting to him. So it's like, I'm not trying to put you in an awkward space either. I want you to talk about what you feel comfortable talking about. And then you got artists like Ty Dolla Sign. I did a record with Ty, and Ty's like, bro, I love gospel music. I was raised on it. I want to do this song. I got. I'm gonna write a verse for it. I said, we just want you on the hook. Now I got a verse. And for him, he wanted to do that, so it was like, all right, bet.

[Host 1]

So what about, like, booking shows and touring? Because I know that's a major part as far as you do that independent or you work with, like, a live nation.

[Host 2]

How's that work done?

[Host 1]

Both.

[Host 2]

I prefer independent just because when you have a niche audience, nobody knows them like you do. And if you can understand your audience in your market, you can serve them better. So I've done both, but I like it better doing it myself. That's another thing is, like, I'm big on touring because that's what I. I was fortunate to see, like, some of these big crossover rap rock groups, you know, like, you know, a lot of people don't realize a lot of these big rock groups like Evanescence or Paramore, they started off on the Christian side. You know what I mean?

[Lecrae]

Creed.

[Host 2]

Creed, yeah, they started on Christian side. And. And so I was fortunate to see how they move and how they do it because I was over there with them. So it was like oh, you gotta tour. And a lot of our artists don't understand touring. So for mainstream hip hop, we take that soft money, we go to the club, right? Yeah, they gonna give you 40 bands, but they're not really coming for you. They trying to go to the club, cause it's lit and then you happen to be there. So it's like great. As long as your song is popping, you can get a club date. But you're not building a fan base. Our club is the church. So if you're doing these church events all the time, you not building an audience, right? They, they come in the church anyway, you know what I'm saying? They come into the club anyway. So you not building an audience. You just capitalizing off of what is already there, that built in audience. And it looks good until you don't have a hit and nobody wants to book you for that event. So what we learned was to build our own audience in our own touring. So we started doing our own tours. And you know, Tech9, another good friend, you know, I sat with Tech9 and saw how he built his empire, been in his studio, been in his warehouse and saw what they did and how they did touring and just kind of soaked up some game and, and made sure my artists were touring artists. You got to be a hard ticket artist. That's how you're gonna have longevity. I've been doing this 20 years because I built a fan base. A lot of people don't build hard ticket artists, hard ticket fans. So because of that, you know, they don't know how to do it. And that's what happens in hip hop a lot. So I've had big, major, major artists come to me saying, yo, how you do the tour? What do we need to do? Like can. We'll get you on the radio. If you can get us touring, teach us the game. Let's trade secrets. And you know, it's just something that rock bands been doing. That's why they tour forever.

[Host 1]

So what is the secret to that?

[Host 2]

The secret is you, you can't be afraid. You can't be afraid to start small, smaller venues. And that's what we be afraid of. We don't want to look lame. We like, nah bro. 100 people, nah bro, I ain't going out there. Yeah, I ain't doing that. Travis Scott, that's what he did.

[Host 1]

Is it financially beneficial to. Because when you go on tour, you're gonna have to bring a dj. At the very least, you have to bring a dj. You're gonna bring it's at least five people that probably kind of have to come with you, right?

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

So if you're doing shows for a hundred dollar for 100 people, let's say you charging them 20, 40.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

From the artist standpoint, they look at it probably like, I'm losing money.

[Host 2]

Right.

[Host 1]

What's the point of doing it?

[Host 2]

Yes. It's two things. One is you're telling a story. So it's branding. Right. So part of that is, is your story building. You're telling the story. So sometimes you're gonna have to do that. You're gonna have to tell a story that makes people want to come and pay for the next one. So you'll, you know, it's the cost benefit analysis. It's like, this is gonna cost me this, but what's the benefit? And is the benefit gonna outweigh the initial cost? And then two, if you can do enough shows, you can break even or make a little bit of money, right? If you do enough of them. Yeah. If you do two shows, five shows, you probably you gonna lose money. But if you can, let's say you do 20, it's like, oh, you might break even doing 100 people, but if you do 100 and, you know, you put on a good show, you gotta invest in your show. A lot of rappers just get up there with a DJ walking back and forth on the stage, like, invest in your show. Make it something people wanna see. And then you just keep building it and building it and building. It's like flipping houses. It's like, you gotta buy the cheap house first, put a little bread into it. After you put some bread into it, then you flip it, then you sell it for more. Then you take that bread, you reinvest in another one. A little bit more, a little bit more, a little bit more, a little bit more. And that's. It's the same concept with touring. You know what I mean?

[Lecrae]

As you're doing this from an entrepreneurial journey.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

You're learning and growing. But I want it from the spiritual side. Right. Like, that also is an evolving process, for sure. How do y'all. And as a leader.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

And the founder of a company and having artists under you, how do y'all tap into that? Are y'all doing retreats or is it like. Cause I watched my brother go through seminary school.

[Host 2]

Wow.

[Lecrae]

And I was like, bro, he's a pastor now, study theology. What is that like for you as a leader of your company?

[Host 2]

I think, you know, I take it back to. We was talking about 50 earlier, the reason why we bought into 5th is because of the authenticity. You really got shot. He was really in the streets. What you rap about, you really live. I think that is of paramount importance for what I'm doing and what I'm building. Is this your real life? Right? And how do we make sure this is your real life? Like, how are we investing in you so that you are spiritually grounded? So when you do get up there and you talk in it, this is not just talk. This is your life. So, you know, part of that includes mentorship. You know, I'm big on that. I'm big on just like, yo, I get in the trenches with my artists and like, let's wrestle through things. Here's some book. I give them book recommendations. You know, we read through books together, we do studies together, we've done retreats. You know, all of those particular things. And I've just been very privileged, man, living in Atlanta and seeing the inner workings of organizations. I see the inner, you know. You know, me and Andrew Cathy, who. The son of Dan Cathy, who owns Chick Fil a, you know, we've sat numerous times. I get to see the inner workings of Chick Fil A. You know, my homegirl is at Delta. I get to see the inner workings of Delta. And one of the books that I highly recommend that that has helped us and I tell other people is. Is 4dx. You know what I'm saying? And. And 4dx is a book that teaches you how to structure your business, how to create, how to, you know, an infrastructure, and teaches you, like, sometimes you're so busy working in the business, you don't work on the business. And so if I'm constantly working in it, I'm not working on it. Yo, what does my staff need? You know, what do my artists need? What. What's the needs right now? Because if I'm constantly just cracking a whip and I'm not taking inventory of what they need, you know, we'll do reviews and we'll do Stop start continues. I'll say, well, what do you need to stop doing? Here's what you need to start doing. Here's you need to continue doing. This is what you're doing. Well, and so always constant evaluations. Always constantly working on ourselves. Like you said, the spiritual retreats, the prayer times, the groups, we do devotionals. You know, I see Chick Fil A, they do the devotionals. They do all kinds of stuff like that. So we're just incorporating them things.

[Host 1]

So, like the Russell and a couple other artists and we interviewed somebody that had a platform where a lot of artists now independent there, they're like having a pay what you want strategy.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

Is that something that you.

[Host 2]

Nah, we don't do that.

[Host 1]

You would never do that.

[Host 2]

I'm not. I understand it. I do think. I do think. I get that. I think at the stage that, like, LA Russell's at, he's in a disruptive stage, which. That's dope. And I salute him for that. You know, I want to work with him. You know, we've talked about doing some stuff. I'm not in the disruptive stage in this state of my career. So at this stage of my career, you know, I got, you know, an office full of employees and multiple artists. Like, I have to think about maximization. You know, I'm not like the. The lean startup, you know, I'm not at that stage. If you're in the lean startup stage, obviously do some disruptive things, you know what I mean? Because you lean and you can move lean. I got 401ks, I got. I got. We can't play no games. So for us, it's like we're think. We have to think a little bit bigger. Now. Maybe there's one artist that we can do that experiment on, but as a whole, we can't be that disruptive. We have to move in the flow of business in some senses, you know what I'm saying? Like, where is the business culture going? And you go with the flow. If you're a disruptor, you're going against the flow of where business is to create something different. And, And I've been there, and it's effective. But this is what I always tell people. It's like when you start off your business or your company, you playing golf, right? And when you playing golf, everybody uses the same tool. Everybody gets to hit the ball, everybody puts it in a hole. It's, that's, it's. It's all hands on deck. You can be a disruptor playing golf, it's fine. You get a little bigger as basketball, right? Everybody touches the ball. Everybody shoots. Some shoot more than others, some pass more than others. But we got different roles. But when you get big enough, which is like, you know, it gets very intense. You got multiple employees. You. You playing football. And when you playing football, everybody can't be the kicker. Everybody can't be the quarterback. Yeah, your homeboys. That's your man. You. You grew up with him. Y'all was playing golf. It was all good. He can't catch. You gotta have A specialized person who knows how to do that role. And that's when you know it can get sticky and tricky. But you, you have to. To kind of put that hat on and go in the flow of. Of business and say, man, if we gonna do this right, we need the right person for this particular thing. Like, yo, Shorty was dope grinding underground. But we need somebody who's skilled in marketing because the budget is higher. This. The what's on the line is more crucial.

[Lecrae]

You. So let's talk about that. The business culture of hip hop. Really?

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

When you started early 2000s, you said that there was balance.

[Host 2]

Yeah, right.

[Lecrae]

What people talk about now is that the absence or the lack of balance. Right. So for every, I don't know, little dirt, who is the next person? Right. There is no common right now.

[Host 2]

Right? Right.

[Lecrae]

There is for every Ice Spice, who is the Lauryn Hill.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

How difficult is it to now crack through in a space where there's no balance?

[Host 2]

It's a good thing and a bad thing. To me, I think it's a good thing in a sense that it doesn't exist as much as it did. So people are thirsty for it. So when they get a taste of it, they're like, what is this? This is amazing. So there's room for it. But at the same time, I think as a culture, you know, hip hop as a culture is getting like so frivolous and careless that could put itself in a very bad situation. So similar to rock and roll, right. Rock and roll just got so crazy, like so off the hinges, it became non existent. It's like you use, you. You drugged yourself to death, you prostituted yourself out to death and now no one is interested. Right. It's like there's nothing, there's no texture to it. It's gone. And I feel like hip hop is. Runs the risk of following the same pattern as rock and roll. Like, once upon a time, rock and roll was everything.

[Lecrae]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

Now it's like, who's that? What's rock and roll? So hip hop runs the risk of being like, yo, you prostituting yourself to death. You drugging yourself to death. Eventually there's gonna be no substance to hold on to, to like even. It's just gonna be a bunch of chaos and you turn into what my man Tyron calls like. Y'all remember the. Them little hands that you. That was sticky. And you, you see, you know what I'm saying? You just pick up stuff with it to where it's like you just like the blob you don't have no distinction anymore. It's like, you part of country, you part of pop, you part of every. You not your own thing anymore. Like, what is hip hop culture in 2024, you know what I'm saying? Like, once upon a time, it was distinct. Now it's like, it's.

[Host 1]

What do you think about artists that, you know, a lot of artists, when they become more spiritual, is backlash.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

Even talking about little Dirk right now, he's in an interesting space right now. Everybody knows how he started as a drill rapper.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

And he's taking a very spiritual turn in his life. Not necessarily his music, but in his life, his life. And he. I'm watching him, and he see, he's trying to walk both sides. He's trying to say, I'm a different person, but I'm still gonna make the same music, which is kind of difficult. And now people are criticizing them. Like, well, how you gonna be a devout Muslim and you talking about killing people? Right? And it's. It's a weird space. And like, some rappers, like Mace, they just left. Like, he's like. As opposed to. Try to walk that line.

[Host 2]

It's like, I'm out.

[Host 1]

I'm out. Right. So what's your thoughts on that? Because it's like, it's one thing if you start how you started.

[Host 2]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Host 1]

There's another thing if you. If you start very secular.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

And then you make a 180 turn. And now people's, like, disappointed. They saying it's not real. They overly judging you for everything now because the expectations are. So that's a very difficult space to be in.

[Host 2]

I totally agree. I'm a big fan of taking people with you. Right. Like, don't do a hard left on folks. Take them on a journey with you. Because if you bust that hard left, it's like a bait and switch. It's like, I'm different now. And I. And I tell this to a lot of my younger Christian artists. There's a young lady out here, I was just talking with her producer last night. She's like a New York drill artist, right? She meets God, she wants to change. I started listening to her songs, and it's like, I'm killing the devil with my Bible. You know what I mean? And I'm like, slow down. Cause all you really doing is trading in your old ops for the devil. And it's weird to somebody, they like, what is happening right now. This is strange. So I was like, yo, take your people with you. Talk about the story. Of when you left the club and you was feeling empty and you was like, I need something different. Like, take us on that journey so we can understand this process that's happening, and we can walk with you down that pathway and say, that's what's up. Like, the song Dirk and Cole did is like, that's, that's a piece. That's like, that's we on the journey. Gradual. Gradual. Exactly.

[Lecrae]

We had that conversation. I'm like, great song. Will they go with him?

[Host 2]

That's what I'm saying.

[Lecrae]

That was like, the conversation. Will they go with them?

[Host 2]

That's what I'm saying. You. You can't just.

[Host 1]

You can't do it just abruptly.

[Host 2]

You can't.

[Lecrae]

So let's talk about somebody who did do it, though.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

Another guy from Chicago.

[Host 2]

All right. Yay.

[Lecrae]

Jesus walks.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

Jesus is king.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

Everything in between. And after.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

I went to that show by myself. Thank you.

[Host 1]

Well, I don't hold.

[Lecrae]

No, because I, I, I, I don't.

[Host 1]

Think I was abruptly, though, because.

[Lecrae]

No, no, I'm saying.

[Host 1]

No, no, no.

[Lecrae]

I'm saying you, You.

[Host 2]

What he's really saying is he's disappointed you didn't go with him. That's what he's really saying.

[Lecrae]

You want to know what really happened? I bought four tickets.

[Host 2]

Okay.

[Lecrae]

I was like, yo, we were at a complex con.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

And it was kind of like there was a. A panel that was going to happen and, like, the concert was going to happen.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

And I was like, I'm going. Call the Uber. I got to. I have to see this. Like, I really want to see this. And they. The Uber came, and I was like, in it. And they. I looked at them and they, like, I'm not coming. I'm like, I closed the door. I went by myself. And I almost appreciated that. I went by myself.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

Because if. Did you see the show?

[Host 2]

The Jesus is king?

[Lecrae]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

No, I didn't see that one.

[Lecrae]

It was emotional.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

Like, it. Because it infused hip hop. It was like the soul to soul, but it was, like, sold out. Like, has, like, all that together. And I was like, this is what it should feel like when you come. And then obviously, we didn't see anything follow up. So I'm talking about that. That taking them with you. But you. What happens after?

[Host 1]

But I'll say this about this, because Kanye probably. I'm probably the biggest Kanye fan in the world.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

Well, you didn't come to that. Kanye fan. Biggest Kanye fan.

[Host 1]

Look, it's a few things with this.

[Lecrae]

Okay.

[Host 1]

So. Hey, I think Kanye was always on that type of time. He did.

[Host 2]

Jesus walked to Jesus. Yeah.

[Host 1]

But so I don't think that that's not really. People wasn't really shocked. Okay. This, this is my thing time only.

[Lecrae]

Because that comes right after life after Pablo.

[Host 1]

No, no, but I'm saying it's not a completely shot. You're not shocked at Khan? Like, Kanye's not a gangster rapper.

[Lecrae]

No, no, no.

[Host 1]

Not a drill rapper. Like I'm saying, he always was talking about something. Yeah. So it's not a complete religion was part of it.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

My thing with the Kanye thing is that I feel like the, like when he was doing the Sunday services.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

Like that was dope.

[Host 2]

Right?

[Host 1]

You know what I mean?

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

And I listened to the album just because I'm a Kanye fan and the album.

[Lecrae]

Oh, you listen to Jesus Kick.

[Host 1]

Of course. The album did not meet expectations. Did you. I'm just being honest with you.

[Lecrae]

Did you like now coloring.

[Host 1]

I did not like Chance the Rapper, but coloring book, you could say that's like a. A Christian rap album to me. In my opinion, that's a dope classic. I think that's a classic album. Right.

[Lecrae]

There's good records on there.

[Host 1]

Coloring.

[Lecrae]

Jesus is king. No, Jesus.

[Host 2]

Jesus is king. Water is one of my production.

[Lecrae]

One of my favorite.

[Host 2]

I love the production.

[Lecrae]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

I didn't feel like Kanye was at his best.

[Lecrae]

He's not.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

But that's because it. Are we going to go with him? I just.

[Host 2]

It was tough.

[Host 1]

But was it authentic?

[Lecrae]

That's the problem. That's what I'm saying.

[Host 1]

I don't think it was authentic.

[Lecrae]

That's what I'm saying. So like Jesus Walks felt super authentic. It was like, this is different life after Pablo, I'm like, all right, this is Yay.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

And then Sunday service started happening. He had taken a sabbatical and it was like, oh, Sunday service, he's okay. I get it. And then Jesus King is like, oh, this is what he's on now.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

But it really wasn't what he was in the moment. He was on that.

[Host 2]

Right. That's what I, I think that's for anybody who first learns something, it's like they want to just. They. They busting everybody over the head with what they just learn.

[Lecrae]

They don't fire.

[Host 2]

You know what I'm saying? It's like, it's like you gotta take time to let that sit in and let it soak and let it process. How does that manifest in your day to day life? You know what I'm saying, like, when I first had my spiritual transition, I was coming home to my mom. Like, yo, mom, Mom, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus. She was like, yo, do you talk about anything else? You know what I'm saying? And then my pastor at the time was like, stop talking to her about that and live it. I said, what you mean? He said, cut the grass, wash the dishes. Like, just live out the new joy you have and love for her. And I was like, oh. So then I just started serving her, loving her, being a good son. She's like, yo, what the happened to you? You know, what's going on with you? And it was that transition that she got to see versus me, just. And I feel like that's what I heard on Jesus Is King. It was just like, like, you know, this dogmatic. Which. We love Kanye for being dogmatic, right? But it was like, this don't feel like you done really. You ain't steeped in this yet. It's like you just learning it and throwing it at us. And I would prefer to hear you talk about how your life looks in that time period, you know what I'm saying? Like, Eminem, a lot of people don't know is a. Is a Christian, you know what I'm saying? But when he did the God the joint on Khaled's album, you heard it. But he. His content just kind of shifts a little bit, you know, he doesn't talk about the same, like, I'm not killing people and stabbing eyeballs and drinking my mom's urine and all kinds of crazy stuff, you know what I'm saying? You could just hear, like, you maturing, you know what I'm saying? So I, I, that's, I'm a fan of that.

[Lecrae]

Yeah. What are your thoughts about HOV? But when we talk about growth and.

[Host 2]

Journeys, 444 is a grown man's album, bro.

[Lecrae]

Written testimony as well. No.

[Host 2]

Yeah. Grown. Yes. You know what I'm saying? Like, we need that as. That's the other thing about hip hop. Hip hop don't be letting us grow up. You know what I'm saying? It's like, it just, it, like, forever wants to keep us as kids. And. And I'm like, I think we need a new category or something. We need, like.

[Host 1]

Well, I think Nas.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

Has done a great job.

[Host 2]

He has phenomenal job.

[Host 1]

I think Jay has done a great job.

[Host 2]

Yeah. Killer Mike. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Yeah.

[Host 1]

So I think even, like a little Wayne, like, you know, you. I don't know if the Content of his music has changed, but you see, he's changed. Like, he's doing sports shows now and he's with his kids. It's like he's still Little Wayne, but he's not the same little Wayne in 2002 than he is in 2024.

[Lecrae]

The double cups have been put down, I think.

[Host 2]

Yeah, hopefully.

[Host 1]

Hopefully.

[Host 2]

That's what I'm saying. We'll drink ourselves to death out here if we don't, which is true. Yeah.

[Lecrae]

But it was Densing, when you were saying that. I'm thinking about what may have killed rock and roll. Right. And, like, if you think of we from that era, so, like, when Kurt Cobain takes his life. Yeah. That's a pivotal moment.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

They lost this. This was the group, this was the star. Yeah, but in hip hop, we're losing those stars, like, daily, every day. When we're losing them. The difference in rock and roll is that you're right, they age. And as they age, they're appreciated. They get the tour. We're starting to see that now in hip hop a little bit. With, like, I know what LL is doing. I know he just put out music, but he's rocked the bells and everything. But where's that next generation of people who are going to be able to.

[Host 2]

Do it, do that?

[Host 1]

It's doing it now.

[Lecrae]

No, no, the next generation that's doing it now.

[Host 1]

J. Cole gonna be here for a long time. Drake's gonna be here for a long time.

[Lecrae]

But Those guys are 3940. Right.

[Host 1]

I'm saying that's the next generation.

[Host 2]

After, after, after, after.

[Host 1]

J. Cole, Kendrick, you know?

[Lecrae]

Yeah, it's gonna be tough.

[Host 2]

That's the hard part.

[Host 1]

That's the little dirt because of the world.

[Host 2]

And that's the hard part is. I don't. I don't know when it pertains to them, because labels keep signing these jokers right off the block. And the gun is still hot, you know what I'm saying? So they. It's like, there's no development. There's no isolation. There's no time to get away from the chaos. It's like your song is a hit like Bobby Schmurda. It's like, yo, you hot. And now you're in prison. You know what I'm saying? Chef G, you hot now you locked up, you know? I mean, it's just bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, pop smoke. You hot now you. Now you gone. And it's like, man, we just. We need to insulate them a little bit, give them Some gang, like, something different gotta happen because they don't even get a chance to. They frontal lobe ain't even closed. You know what I'm saying? They're not even getting a chance to mature and to grow in the process.

[Host 1]

Well, just speaking about that because, you know, a lot of that has to do with the home structure.

[Host 2]

Sure.

[Host 1]

And you said earlier in the show, like, you didn't see your dad for 30 years.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

So how was that? What was that like, you know, reconnecting with him after a 30 year time frame?

[Host 2]

I was fortunate to have been through therapy. So Jay actually got me. Jay?

[Host 1]

Jay Z. Jay Z. Oh, you know Jay.

[Host 2]

I met him once.

[Host 1]

Okay.

[Host 2]

He didn't get me to go by.

[Host 1]

Him telling, oh, you listen.

[Host 2]

Yeah. You know what I'm saying? But David Banner also told me to go to therapy. And so. So therapy put me in a place where I was able to meet my dad and say, it's not about what you did, it's about what happened to you.

[Host 1]

What happened to him?

[Host 2]

Yes. What happened to you to make you this way? Cause this ain't just you just being a terrible human being. Something made you like this.

[Host 1]

Did you find him or he found you?

[Host 2]

I found him. I found him, and me and my sister went to go meet him. My sister's. You know, I sit there and I ask him, I say, yo, how you feeling? What's going on? And, you know, he tell me some crazy stories. And then my sister's like, are you proud of him? Are you proud of your son? Like, he's done all these things. Like, do you feel sorry that you wasn't in part of his life?

[Host 1]

Has he been following your journey?

[Host 2]

He hears about it, you know what I'm saying? So he taps in, and when she asks him, are you sorry about it? He says, I never say sorry. That's the sorriest word in the dictionary. My sister's pissed. I'm like, something made him this way. You know what I'm saying? So I just pry a little more. He starts telling me stories about his pops. And, you know, his pops passed away. He's like, my pops went to Vietnam. He came back. I didn't ask him, how you feeling emotionally? And I got out the way, and I was like, okay, this is what's shaping you as a human and why you engage in us in this way. And he was like, you know, God got y'all. I knew God was gonna take care of y'all. And it's like, got you. I. I could be mad at you for this, but something made you this way, and I don't. You don't have the mental categories of the mental health to even process this information right? I do. So for me, it's like, oh, I don't need you to be my mentor in this season of my life. I just need to put my eyes on, you know, a little bit more about myself, and maybe we can connect from time to time, but it's not gonna be healthy until you get some growth and maturity for you to be a part of.

[Host 1]

So it wasn't like a Kumbaya?

[Host 2]

No.

[Host 1]

He stood firm on why he left.

[Host 2]

Yeah. He's like, yeah, man, y'all was gonna be straight. You know what I mean?

[Lecrae]

God got you.

[Host 2]

Yeah, God got you.

[Host 1]

Have you stayed in touch?

[Host 2]

Yeah, we stay in touch. You know, I'll hit him from time to time. He's. He. You know, he's a very intelligent dude, reads a lot of books, but at the same time, it's like he hasn't done the work on himself.

[Host 1]

But how had. How did that affect you growing up, not having a father?

[Host 2]

Oh, it's terrible. It was horrible. I didn't even realize how bad it messed me up. You know what I'm saying? Like, it. It made me insecure. It made me, you know, always run to the affections of a different woman to try to feel something, you know what I mean? And then, worst of all, I'm looking for a male figure to be like that leader for me. And the only men who were invested in me were my uncles who were gang members. You know what I mean? So it was like, I'm just out here like, I'm not a man unless I join the gang.

[Host 1]

And you never wanted to join the game, so.

[Host 2]

Yes, I did. But probably. I wonder what y'all. I don't know. Y'all personal stories, but probably similar to y'all. Y'all probably are growing up around things, but, you know, internally, like, I'm a little different.

[Host 1]

That's not you.

[Host 2]

Yeah. I call myself a hangbanger, you know, not a gang banger. Like, I'm hanging around the bangers, but I'm, like, affiliated with him.

[Lecrae]

Far from hood, but understand the streets, man.

[Host 2]

You know what I mean? I'm like, this ain't really. So when they start recruiting, that's when it got real for me. When I'm standing on the street corner and some of the OGs are like, hey, the rivals keep coming through here, shooting up. This is Yalls gun, y'all share it. Something pop off y'all start shooting back. Now, what we didn't know was week 13. Like, this is them trying to, you know, let the people who not gonna do prison time do the shooting. You know what I'm saying? Like, this is a little manipulative, but we feeling like, oh, they, like, this is, you know, like, coming of age, right of passage. And that moment for me was like, y'all don't see what's happening? Like, I could see it. I could peep it. And I was like, I ain't even mad at these other dudes that much to take their life. And that's when I was like, I just know I got a future. I feel like I got more of a future than this. So, honestly, for the second half of my life, I felt embarrassed and less of a man because I didn't do the prison time. I didn't, you know, join the set. And I go back to the hood, and they're like, what's up, og? And I'm like, who? They talking to me? And they like, yeah, you put the hood on the map, bro.

[Lecrae]

You.

[Host 2]

You did it. Da, da, da. And I'm like, that's crazy, because I thought I had to do it that way, and I did it a different way. And. And, man, it's just a. You know, that's some of the trauma that we deal with is as black men, too.

[Lecrae]

But, yeah, in that story, as a young man, the story, you meet your dad, I hear faith being tested, for sure. Over and over again.

[Host 2]

Sure.

[Lecrae]

Talk about the response to that. Because a lot of times we don't know how to handle it when we're being tested. We're not even aware of it till after.

[Host 2]

Yeah, for sure.

[Lecrae]

Talk about that.

[Host 2]

Yeah. I think the beauty of my relationship with God and my faith, man, is that I know to whom much is given, much is required, and to whom much is forgiven, much is required. So I know the dirt that I have done. I know the chaos that I've caused, and I know I've been forgiven. So for me to meet my dad, it was like, man, I done been forgiven for so much. You know what I'm saying? And if God can forgive me, how can I not forgive this man? Forgiveness doesn't necessarily mean we connected, you know, I'm saying what it means is I'm not harboring ill will towards you. I don't want nothing negative for you. I'm not holding no bitterness. It doesn't mean we about to hang out in Kumbaya. It just means, you know, what I could be mad and carry this bitterness pill, but I want to get better. Not bitter, you know what I'm saying? I want to not. That's not going to help me. So let me love you from afar, you know what I'm saying, and forgive you and move on with my life, and. And that's, you know, just a part of the journey.

[Lecrae]

It's another man trying to get to heaven.

[Host 2]

You feel me? Like, yeah, man, facts. It's like, yeah, he. He doing what he can with what he got, and you know what I'm saying? Hopefully, you know what I'm saying? That. That. That helps him to see, like, yo, my son didn't even come at me crazy. Like, he didn't. He came at me caring. I'm not trying to be an enabler either, though. I'm not trying to be like, hey, man, you know, let's just get to get, like. Because I got cousins who've been in and out of the prison system and on and off drugs, and it's like, I haven't been through that, where I'm like, I'm not putting on my money in books, bro, because now I'm enabling you. You know what I'm saying? You're not trying to get better. You know what I'm saying? But if you're trying to do right, get better, I'm with it.

[Host 1]

So what's next? What's next as far as the label? Yeah, any big initiatives that you're working on? Like, what's the plans, man?

[Host 2]

Just for me, you know, it's legacy. You know, legacy is more than. So, inheritance, what you leave to people. Legacy is what you leave in people. So it's like, man, just trying to leave legacy and folks, but also inheritance. I love creating opportunities for other people, man. I want to be the. My ceiling, be someone else's floor. So obviously, the label, you know, signing. We got a few new artists. We signing. I'm putting out new music. Of course, for me, I still put out music. I still enjoy it. Funny that the next single that I'm dropping is a song that was written. The hook in the production was for Kanye because they thought he was on that page, but he switched, so they was like, we ain't got nothing else. Yo, you want these records? I was like, absolutely. So the records are crazy. The next one, you know, is on the way. And then, man, just, you know, the reason why I was excited to connect with y'all is because I'm big into investing. I'm big into, you know, diversifying Stocks, Stocks, you know, vc. I'm part of Collab Capital, which is a fund in Atlanta. You know, we raise 50 mil for black entrepreneurs in the city, black founders. And I'm. I'll. For me, I want artists to know you're like an athlete. You only have a certain window of earning opportunity. So you've got to diversify when you're at the peak of your earning, you know, capacity. And so there was one point in time I'm still doing great as an artist, but there was one point in time I had the number one album in the country. If I was, if I would have just lived like that for the, the remainder of my career, I wouldn't, you know, so I just. Learning how to invest, educating folks, that's a big piece of what I'm, what I'm about now. So I'm always even, you know, flex. I'm always telling him, like, you don't work for me. I'm your client. You know, So I want all my artists, I want all my employees to see me as a client. You're an entrepreneur. This is your, your thing. I'm your client. You're building something. You know, use what I have to build, whatever it is that, that you feel like you need to do. And so, yeah, more of those types of things, man, that's really what my, where my headspace is.

[Host 1]

Oh, dope. Well, how can the people stay in touch as far as, you know, website, Instagram, all of that?

[Host 2]

Make sure you tap in with me, you know, I'm saying, at Lecrae L E C R A E Social media. Follow me, I'll take you somewhere. You know what I'm saying? Catch me probably at every Invest fest in the future. Too easy.

[Lecrae]

Too easy.

[Host 2]

You know, say yeah, man. So just stay tapped in.

[Host 1]

Have you done anything with like, you talked about, like church? Have you done anything like, with a collab like any, like the mega churches?

[Host 2]

Not, not necessarily. You know what I'm saying? Like, I've done like interactions and certain things like that where we'll partner on, on a few things. I partner with Experian to do some financial literacy programs. And you know, obviously we, we targeted some churches for that. My pastor, he was actually a financial advisor, so he's on Instagram as a stewardship coach. And you know, we, we got some talks about doing some stuff because he's pretty big church in Atlanta as well. And that's why I knew about that series seven and a whole nine.

[Host 1]

Okay.

[Lecrae]

Smart man.

[Host 2]

Yeah, but, but yeah, man, just, you know, I just want people to be educated, especially our people. And if, and if, if a, if a portion of our people are in the churches, how do we just disseminate that information to them?

[Lecrae]

You are the, probably the, I mean, easily the most well known faith based hip hop artist. Who do you see out there right now that's like, I like what they're doing that signed to you or not signed to you, like they're the next one coming up.

[Host 2]

I mean, I think everybody has different iterations and different like aspects of what I do or what I see that I love. You know what I'm saying? So I think, you know, like I said, my guy 1k fuse, the streets love him, you know, I mean he's able to connect with the streets and the culture and the church in a way that I, I feel like I was able to do, you know, my guy Hovey's. The artistic capabilities in blending out all that together is incredible. But the, the person that I see like is like, oh, this dude gets it. Is my guy kb and you know, he, he was signed to me, but you know, he gets it so much. He's like, nah, I'm gonna do my own thing now. You know, Started his own clothing supply company. So he like does fulfillment for other artists, you know, because he learned that game and he, he just, he gets it. And I'm like, you get it.

[Lecrae]

You know, I mean, dope.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

Thank you for joining us, brother.

[Host 2]

Absolutely, man.

[Host 1]

Appreciate it, man.

[Lecrae]

Appreciate you.

[Host 1]

Thank you guys for rocking with us. We'll see you next week.

[Lecrae]

Peace.

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[Host 2]

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