Podcast Summary: Earn Your Leisure

Episode: Is the Podcast Game Falling Apart? Ownership, Equity & Surviving Predatory Deals

Date: October 20, 2025
Hosts: Rashad Bilal & Troy Millings (Earn Your Leisure, iHeartPodcasts)

Main Theme:

This episode tackles the state of the podcasting industry, exploring whether the “podcast game is falling apart.” Rashad and Troy discuss ownership, equity, and the dangers of predatory deals, using recent headlines as examples. They break down what it takes to survive in a shifting content landscape, emphasizing independent business models, the power of niche audiences, and the need for real equity over vanity metrics.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The State of Podcasting – Trouble in the Game

• The hosts open by referencing industry drama (e.g., Gilbert Arenas' podcast ownership change, public feuds between creators) as potential signs of instability.
  [02:11] Host: “Let’s start with here our podcast Falling Apart. So Gilbert Arenas... Underdog Fantasy owns 50% of his show... potentially lead to downsizing...”

• Internal industry beefs (Mark Lamont Hill and Queen's Flip, shots fired in hip-hop circles) are seen as symptoms of wider financial and partnership stress.
  [02:55] Host: “...a few other staples in the hip hop community ... throw shots at each other ... a lot of stuff is happening. So is the podcast game falling apart?”

• The increasing volatility is connected to the underlying health and structure of podcast business deals.

2. Predatory Deals & Ownership Nightmares

• Rashad addresses how deals that seem lucrative up front (big viewership, brand partnerships) may strip creators of equity and creative control.
  [04:10] Rashad: “...every good deal and good partnership that looks good may not be good for you long term. What good is a partnership if it removes... [your] name off of [the show]...”

• Specific mention: Underdog Fantasy taking 50% of Gilbert Arenas’ show, changing its focus and removing his name—echoed as a warning to other creators.
  [05:14] Rashad: “Be careful. Independence is important... the number that really matters is percentage of equity and non-dilutable shares. It’s a lot of y’all who getting 2 million views, [but] can’t scrounge up 20,000 for an emergency. Don’t walk into the predatory deal is my advice.”

• The irony of some platforms (e.g., gaming/gambling) capitalizing on creators’ personal brands after those very brands have been put at risk.

3. Revenue Models: Beyond Ad Dollars

• The hosts strongly caution against an over-reliance on ad dollars as the sole revenue source. [06:38] Host: “...if your business model revolves solely around revenue that’s produced from people watching your show, as far as like, ad dollars, that’s... mistake.”

• They outline alternatives:

  • Mixed Monetization:
    Patreon models (Joe Budden), show tiers/free gateways with premium subscriptions, diversified product/service offerings. [07:04] Host: “...horrible decisions, 85 South with channel 85... free content... as a gateway... enough paid subscribers that it balances out the free content.”
  • Brand as Platform:
    Leverage free content to build reach, funnel into higher-value products (Market Mondays, Red Panda, EY University). [07:04] Host: “...if you really want to know how to trade options... get the financial planning calls... that’s EY University. So we offer both.”

• Warning that platforms like YouTube/Spotify/Instagram may change the rules or restrict reach at any time; creators’ core business must not be platform-dependent. [08:41] Host: “...because they're not always potentially even going to be able to be... we're not always going to have this reach... supposed to use that to grow your brand so you can do other things outside of that.”

4. The Celebrity Podcast Bubble

• The vast majority of high-level podcasters are celebrities from other fields (music, sports)—not organically grown in the podcast space. [12:31] Host: “Most people in 2025 in podcast space, let’s say for black men, podcast space, not streamers... are celebrities from a time before.”

• Non-celebrity creators are now at disadvantage—they start with zero following while ex-athletes, rappers, and other celebrities bring millions. [13:15] Host: “...they have advantage over you because you’re starting with a thousand followers, they’re starting with a million followers already.”

• The remaining advantage for newcomers must be unique skills, underserved niche topics, or differentiated value—not chasing celebrity models.

5. Lessons in Equity, Niche Audiences, and Saying No

• Importance of equity and saying 'no' to bad deals. [14:25] Rashad: “The most important thing... is to be able to say no. That’s why I tell y’all... my favorite thing in business is I don’t feel like it. You want me to really do it? Pay me 7 million. I don’t want to do it.”

• Quality > Quantity: Hosts advocate for cultivating high-quality niche audiences over large but disengaged followings. [15:36] Host: “Sometimes you’re chasing something that might not be as profitable as what you already have... never discount a niche audience. We might not have the largest audience... but we have an educated audience that has higher income, that has a higher level of priorities.”

• Rashad offers a final warning and support for creators stuck in questionable arrangements:
  [16:45] Rashad: “Kudos to you. Love the show. I hope he can work his way out of that deal. But be careful, my brother. You got a hot show. Be careful.”

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• [03:15] Rashad: “...most of the people that y'all see who are potting, things may not be going... well. I think when things are going well, there are signs, right?... Nori... [on] Instagram, Monaco Yach bottle from Jay Z, he with Tata just new watch. Nor got 73 watches in the last two years.”

• [05:18] Rashad: “Independence is important. ...the number that really matters is percentage of equity and non-dilutable shares. It’s a lot of y’all who getting 2 million views, can’t scrounge up 20,000 for an emergency.”

• [12:31] Host: “Most people in 2025 in podcast space... are celebrities from a time before.”

• [14:25] Rashad: “...always do the opposite of what the field is doing. ...the most important thing, too, in business is to be able to say no.”

• [16:30] Rashad: “Two fives don’t make a ten. ...you can’t even sell the audience to a CPG company if you wanted to.”

Important Timestamps

• [02:11] – Show opens with discussion of recent controversies in the podcast space
• [04:10] – The dark side of lucrative brand partnerships
• [05:18] – The true value: equity, not views
• [06:38] – Warnings against dependency on ad dollars
• [07:04] – Deconstructing the paywall/freemium strategy
• [12:31] – Reality check: most top podcasters are celebrities
• [14:25] – Business wisdom: Saying “no” and resisting bad deals
• [15:36] – Power of niche audiences

Conclusion

This episode delivers a candid and strategic look at the podcasting industry. Rashad and Troy urge creators to prioritize ownership and build sustainable business models, while warning against the allure of flashy partnerships and unbalanced deals. They champion independent thinking, the value of niche audiences, and hard-won business discipline in an increasingly crowded and challenging space.

For creators and fans alike, this episode is both a cautionary tale and a masterclass in podcasting entrepreneurship.