Kirk Franklin Exposes the Truth About Gospel Music, Record Deals & the Black Church w/ Norman Gyamfi

Summary

Earn Your Leisure Podcast Summary Episode: Kirk Franklin Exposes the Truth About Gospel Music, Record Deals & the Black Church w/ Norman Gyamfi
Release Date: June 26, 2025
Hosts: Rashad Bilal and Troy Millings
Guests: Kirk Franklin and Norman Gyamfi

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1. Introduction and Partnership

The episode kicks off with Rashad Bilal introducing the special guests, Kirk Franklin and Norman Gyamfi. Kirk Franklin, a renowned gospel musician, discusses his collaboration with Norman Gyamfi, highlighting their complementary skills in music and business.

Notable Quote:

• Kirk Franklin (01:22): "This is gonna be a good two-sided conversation where we talk about a variety of different things, especially the business aspect."

2. Addressing Deficiencies in Gospel Music

Norman Gyamfi delves into the historical challenges within the gospel music industry, emphasizing the lack of professional and financial growth opportunities for artists. He explains how gospel music artists were often left to navigate the business side on their own, leading to deficiencies in areas like music publishing, touring, and contract understanding.

Notable Quote:

• Norman Gyamfi (02:26): "I noticed a lot of deficiencies in the marketplace... artists were just really left to survive on their own."

3. Insignia Assets and Its Business Model

The conversation shifts to Insignia Assets, a holding company founded by Norman. Unlike traditional record labels, Insignia Assets emphasizes vertical integration, owning publishing rights, masters, and maintaining strategic partnerships without taking on external debt.

Notable Quote:

• Norman Gyamfi (08:25): "Insignia Assets is a holding company that does everything we do in-house, from television and film to publishing and touring."

4. Critique of Traditional Record Deals

Both guests critique the traditional record deal structures prevalent in the gospel and broader music industries. They highlight how major labels often secure the majority of profits while artists receive minimal royalties, delaying significant financial gains until decades into their careers.

Notable Quote:

• Troy Millings (23:30): "One of the most disruptive factors was giving royalties to artists without traditional deals, allowing them to keep more of what they earn."

5. Navigating the Streaming Era

Norman discusses the transition from physical sales to streaming, stressing the importance of embracing technological changes. He shares insights on how Insignia Assets leveraged streaming platforms to increase the visibility and profitability of gospel artists.

Notable Quote:

• Norman Gyamfi (33:01): "We were the first to embrace streaming in gospel, ensuring our artists stayed relevant and profitable in the digital age."

6. The Current State of Gospel Music

The discussion moves to the contemporary state of gospel music, where Norman expresses concerns over declining church attendance and the genre's struggle to connect with younger audiences. He attributes this to outdated marketing strategies and a disconnect between traditional practices and modern consumer behavior.

Notable Quote:

• Norman Gyamfi (34:31): "I'm worried about the decline in youth participation in the church and how that impacts gospel music's future."

7. AI's Role in Music and the Church

The guests explore the controversial topic of Artificial Intelligence in music creation and church roles. Troy Millings predicts a future where AI-generated artists become commonplace, emphasizing the irreplaceable value of authentic human expression in art and spiritual leadership.

Notable Quote:

• Troy Millings (46:19): "Authenticity is something AI can't replicate. Real voices and genuine experiences will always be valued."

8. Authenticity in Art and Religion

Norman underscores the importance of authenticity in both music and religious leadership. He argues that while technology advances, the human element—emotions, experiences, and genuine storytelling—remains crucial and irreplaceable.

Notable Quote:

• Norman Gyamfi (50:14): "Authentic voices speak to our deepest emotions in ways that AI cannot mimic."

9. Leadership and Mental Health in the Church

Kirk Franklin and Norman discuss the pressures faced by religious leaders. Norman criticizes the unrealistic standards imposed on pastors, which often lead to mental health struggles. He advocates for viewing the church as a supportive community rather than an institution that demands perfection.

Notable Quote:

• Norman Gyamfi (74:35): "Religion can contribute to mental health issues when leaders are held to unattainable standards."

10. Hope for Humanity Amid Global Challenges

In the concluding segment, the guests reflect on global conflicts and societal issues. Despite the ongoing turmoil, both express a steadfast hope rooted in faith. Norman emphasizes the need for unified compassion and grace, while Troy maintains that belief in a higher power offers resilience against despair.

Notable Quotes:

• Norman Gyamfi (75:20): "We need unified compassion and grace to address the wickedness that plagues our leaders."
• Troy Millings (78:19): "I don't lose hope in humanity because I believe that God is real and His plans are just."

Conclusion

The episode wraps up with expressions of gratitude towards the guests and a brief mention of their ongoing projects. Kirk Franklin and Norman Gyamfi reaffirm their commitment to transforming the gospel music industry and fostering a supportive community within the church.

Final Notable Quote:

• Kirk Franklin (80:21): "Thank you brothers. Appreciate the comments. I'll do it again."

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This episode of Earn Your Leisure provides an in-depth exploration of the gospel music industry's challenges and opportunities, emphasizing the critical role of authentic leadership and modern business strategies in fostering growth and sustainability.

Transcript

[Host]

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[Kirk Franklin]

All right, guys.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Kirk Franklin]

Welcome back. We are here special guests. We have Kirk Franklin and Norman and business partners and Kurt, somebody that obviously everybody knows. Norman. This might be an introduction for people. So this is gonna be a good two sided conversation and we talk about a variety of different things. But on the business aspect I think this is good. Cause you know, everybody knows you from your spectacular career as a musician.

[Norman Gianfi]

Thank you, King.

[Kirk Franklin]

And the inspiration for people. So we definitely gotta talk about that. But you know, you're doing a lot in the business world as well and new ventures that you have and different things. So I think that that might be interesting for people to hear that that level of the conversation. So first and foremost, thank you guys for joining us. Appreciate it.

[Norman Gianfi]

Honored to be here, man. Honored to be here.

[Host]

I told you when you walked in for about 10 seconds I was like, that's really his voice. And in my mind Melodies of Heaven is going off right now. So I mean, icon. It is an understatement, man. We, we are happy to have you both.

[Norman Gianfi]

Very, very, very grateful, man.

[Co-Host]

Happy to be here.

[Kirk Franklin]

So how does this work in relationship come about? How do you guys meet and how do you guys formulate some, some level of partnership?

[Norman Gianfi]

Well, you know, man, I, I have been doing music, especially in the space of gospel music now for about 32 years and it has always been deficient with A level of access to professional information just because of the. The. The. The limited amount of professional and financial growth in the space of gospel music historically, it never was attractive to people that had higher levels of understanding of business, where the acumen was able to really be deposited in people that were really very absent of knowing how to be able to maneuver, whether it was music publishing or touring or understanding contracts, understanding the value of what they were contributing to a space. So a lot of times in black gospel music, you were just really left to just survive on your own. And so just over the last several years, you've seen more younger entrepreneurs, especially men of color, that have seen areas that could be beneficial in these joint spaces for themselves and also for the artists. There was just a space of just lack of information, lack of accessibility. And so, um, over the last decade, I've had a chance to run into this fine young gentleman named Norman Gianfi. And Norman started out managing artists, bringing opportunities to artists came from this great space of marketing. And the more I was around him, I understood that it was a secret that was written from, like. Like there was a gem, there was a genius gem that we were not really tapping to, that we were not tapping into to the best of our ability as a genre. And so as he made himself more available, we became friends and we just started to try to talk and communicate. And I would have never known that, that. That so many things that I was aspiring to do. He had the tools to be able to give me the resources and the knowledge and information on how to be able to diversify and really become better at that. So over the last five years, it has been a wonderful partnership. And I've been so impressed with his acumen and his business compass. And so he started to reach out and to build a bigger conglomerate with other men of color that came from the space of faith curated content. And so he, over the last two years, built this type of new ideal that was attractive to me. I was about to sign again with Sony Records and RCA Records, and it was a really nice offering that they were going to give me again because I'd been in the house for years is. But at the same time, I'm looking across the river and I'm seeing these black men that are coming together and they want to be able to really own the space and really be able to give equity and to be able to give voice to individuals like myself. And so I had this incredible choice of going back with a house that was already part of the institution that I knew well or to take a chance on something that seems so attractive and something that really looked like other. And it was an outlier from what I experienced. And it was the best decision I'd ever made.

[Host]

So this is Insignia Assets.

[Norman Gianfi]

Yes.

[Host]

So, Norm, obviously we know your iconic career. Was your career always surrounded about around faith based content and music or how did you get to this point?

[Co-Host]

Yeah, that's a good question. So, no, I had nothing to do with music. Definitely not Christian music. I'm an economist and industrial engineer. Went to Georgia Tech, went to Howard. My sister married a gospel artist, Travis Green. And so I started working with him. And from there I noticed, as Kirk mentioned, a lot of arbitrage, a lot of deficiencies in the marketplace. And the main thing I noticed was that they didn't market music the way the mainstream music did. So I started a marketing company. And then as I started the marketing company, I noticed that a lot of brands, a lot of television, tv, film corporations, a lot of labels needed marketing. They just weren't capturing what they were doing. So that's what we started. We started just capturing everything that we did. You see Chris here right now? As soon as we started working with Kurt, that's what I told him. You gotta have a camera on you all the time because people don't believe a lot of what you say. Kirk was in Brazil. You have 50,000 people there. When you hear that, everybody sees something different. My brother in law, Travis went and did a show. It's 1.1 million people. When I say that everybody has an idea of what 1.1 million people is. It's a difference when I show you what it looks like. And so when you actually show people and you give this POV of what it's like to be Kirk Franklin, Travis Green, Tasha Cobbs, Leonard Lecrae, whoever, you are showing people that in the Christian music space, we're not all just walking around with choir robes on, jumping around. These are massive brands, iconic brands.

[Norman Gianfi]

I do jump around them that are.

[Co-Host]

Filling arenas, stumps too, you know what I mean? And so my main thing when I came into space was to, number one, aggregate and galvanize the most loyal consumer there is, which is the African American consumer one. But secondarily, the most loyal consumer is actually believers. People that believe in God are the most loyal consumer in America. They just elected a president. Whether you like it or not. That's what happened. You know what I mean? And so when you can aggregate that community, community mobilize. And I hate to use the word, but monetize that community, you have a unique opportunity to do something special.

[Kirk Franklin]

So what exactly is Insignia Asset?

[Co-Host]

Insignia Assets is a holding company. And so one of the main things I noticed was there was no vertical integration, so I didn't want to have any outside partners. We have no outside partners. We're not taking on any debt. We have a distribution strategic partner, which is the Orchard. That's about it. I work directly with Live Nation and Touring ag. In Touring. I work directly. We own our own publishing. We own our own masters. We own everything in house.

[Kirk Franklin]

So is it a record label?

[Co-Host]

It's not a record label. It does everything we do. Television, film.

[Kirk Franklin]

So a record label's part of it.

[Co-Host]

A record label is one part. That's Tribal Records. It's one sole part. And we have a publishing division. We have a publishing publishing company. We have a TV film company called Three Diamonds. That's if you're seeing Den of Kings, it's doing really well right now with Kirk, sat down with D.C. young, fly Lou Young, and.

[Norman Gianfi]

Devolved Ellis. Yeah.

[Co-Host]

Deval Ellis.

[Norman Gianfi]

And Country Wayne.

[Co-Host]

And Country Wayne. That's still our company.

[Kirk Franklin]

So it's a 360 offering of everything media and solely based around Christian.

[Co-Host]

Faith. That's the genesis. That's the genesis. That's our modus operandi. But we work with everybody. We work with Tamar Braxton. You know what I mean? We work with. It doesn't matter if you're faith based or not. It matters whether you are a brand that can be multifaceted, tour, podcast, create music, create a book, create an asset that we can then monetize in multiple verticals.

[Norman Gianfi]

And then what is also interesting about what Norman is saying is that even with your question is that the unique space and the. And the unique opportunity with this type of platform is that people of color are very diverse and nuanced in that space, is that they go to the club and they go to church too. So. So you are able to. To curate content that if it. If it knocks, they'll listen, and if it feels good, they'll come. And so it inspires and aspires at the same time. And that's what made it very unique for me.

[Host]

As you're watching him build it, and at the time, you hadn't signed with them, you hadn't partnered with them, but you're on the other side with the traditional major label. He's watching and saying, they're not marketing this. Right. What's that complexity feel like? Right. Like you watching a friend do something that's really Unique. And you're kind of on the fence about doing it, but you're stuck in a traditional kind of mindset of marketing and distributing. What that time period, what was it like for you, trying to battle that?

[Norman Gianfi]

Well, for me, the only tension was my concern of the possibility of there being any unknown challenges with the beautiful personal relationships that were being built is because I didn't have good experiences with doing business with people that I'd fallen in love with as brothers. And so that was my trepidation.

[Kirk Franklin]

So you didn't have relationship, you didn't have good experiences?

[Norman Gianfi]

I've never had good experiences working with individuals that were also friends and family, like individuals. And so that's what, that's what my trepidation was. Now when it came to, when it came to me being clear of the deliverables. My first project that I worked with Norman on was a tour. And it was back in 2020. And it ended up being the biggest attended, biggest grossing Christian or gospel tour ever in history. And it was myself in Maverick City. And so when I saw the level of execution on that tour, that's what really sparked my attention, is because I've toured my entire life, you know, in my space, by God's grace, I'm speaking, I've done all of the big tours in my space historically over the last 25 years. But I, I've. I've never been. I've never been able to really crack the code on the diversification that normally comes to other artists when they tour. And so working with Norman and his partners, it was just an eye opening experience. And then we became closer through it. And so that began to be the beginning of me starting to question if it could be something that could really survive in that level of duality.

[Kirk Franklin]

So let me ask both of you guys this. Cause you both mentioned that gospel artists don't get marketed the right way. So Kurt, from your standpoint, what did you see that was the problem when you was in like the institution? And from your standpoint on the outside looking in, what did you see that say, okay, they're not doing this correctly? I think that I can add this level of exposure to marketing.

[Norman Gianfi]

It is very much not being part of the culture, is that most individuals that work in major systems, they don't go to a local hood church, they're not at the barbershop listening to Sunday sermons, they're not sitting in the missionary Baptist church, they're not from that space. So you got to remember that the origin of gospel music was very much about the community and the engaging of the picnic, the barbecues, the three o' clock services. And that's why gospel music flourished so much in the 70s and 80s and 90s, because a lot of the labels that were running it back then were still people that were part of the community. They were going to church themselves. They were very much engrafted in the space of the ecosystem of church ideals in the community. But because when you are people of color in America, especially during that period of time, either you or somebody, you knew you were not far removed from the church experience. Even if you didn't go, you lived in a house with somebody that did, you knew somebody that did. So you understood the language, you understood the respect, you understood all of the tenets of that cultural experience, even if you were not always privy to it every week. So what happened is there's. As more corporations began to come and buy the smaller companies in the 90s, and in the 2000s, that, that, that, that excess of the real experience of the community of church, the language of church and the heartbeat of the foundational elements of gospel music began to get washed and they began to get quickly separated from what was happening. And so the more you moved up the higher echelon, you missed the heartbeat of what Christian and gospel music was. And so I started to see it, everyone started to see it. And so what this, what, what it created, that were trying to work in gospel music, but they could easily work in hip hop because they were going to the clubs, they knew what was happening in industries, they understood all of the tenets of hip hop culture. But then when they had gospel artists, they didn't know what to do. And so it was a very divine moment for Norman and his partners to really see that happening and to see it as a great business opportunity to be able to tap into those that really needed this bridge of what was. And now what was missing.

[Co-Host]

Yeah, I mean, you hit on a couple of points really well. I think the main thing is something that he said is when you talk about the 90s, everybody grew up. I think at that time, 93 to 97% of people went to church. Today, 38 to 41% of people go to church.

[Kirk Franklin]

Oh, you said 98% of people during.

[Norman Gianfi]

The 90s, men, men and women of.

[Co-Host]

Color, many people know in the United States.

[Norman Gianfi]

Okay, okay, okay.

[Co-Host]

Consider themselves Christian.

[Norman Gianfi]

You're understood, understood.

[Co-Host]

A month at some point in the 90s, that number was in the 90 to 97 percentile. In the 90s, so back then, everybody considered themselves. It's just a thing. You wait. You go up to somebody. You Christian. It's just a. Yes, that was a. I. I wouldn't call it an enlightenment in America, but as we come into today, that number has dwindled to the. To the low 40s, to. To.

[Kirk Franklin]

To the mid-30s of people that attend.

[Co-Host]

Church that consider themselves Christians.

[Kirk Franklin]

Themselves Christian or attend church.

[Co-Host]

Yes. We can look it up. Fact check.

[Kirk Franklin]

So is that.

[Norman Gianfi]

No, he's correct.

[Co-Host]

That has a lot to do with the marketing piece because the way we market. So there were things you could just say in the 90s, and we just accepted them. Like you could just say, God bless you. Nowadays, if you just walk up to somebody, say, God bless you, they say, what God? What do you mean by God bless you? It's just certain things that impacts marketing because if I'm a brand and I know I want to reach a consumer, I may not use a Christian artist because it may offend some audience that wouldn't necessarily be offended.

[Host]

Gotcha.

[Co-Host]

There are many communities currently of color, not of color, of sexual orientation or whatever the case. May we talk about Roe v. Wade that are offended by certain belief systems. Whether or not those belief systems actually have oppressive intent is irrelevant. As a brand, I don't have the opportunity to communicate, oh, I don't agree with everything Kirk Franklin believes, or I don't agree with everything XYZ believes. You don't have that opportunity. So I'm just gonna shy away from the very mere fact that he says he's a Christian because it may offend someone. So what I noticed coming into the space was that that was a. There's a large group of people that still didn't. Didn't mind to have someone like Kirk be the spokesman for what they wanted. There was. There wasn't. There wasn't anyone willing to come in and say, hey, I'm gonna put my money behind this space and look at ways to correlate them with certain brands, certain companies, certain products, and push that to just. Our base. Our base is still. Like I said, it's the most loyal base you have, period.

[Kirk Franklin]

When you say your base, what is your. Because there's a lot of Christians in America.

[Co-Host]

Yeah.

[Kirk Franklin]

But there's evangelical white Christians. There's Roman Catholics.

[Co-Host]

Yeah.

[Kirk Franklin]

There's Southern Baptists. What is your base that you're referring to?

[Co-Host]

So the unique part of what. Where we sit in the marketplace is Kirk mentioned Maverick City. So I am one of the owners of Maverick City with one of my business partner, Jonathan J. And the unique thing about Maverick City was that we prioritize diversity. And so we were able to build one of the first groups that had African Americans in it that was able to be played on what we considered CCM radio. So much like popping R B in the Christian space. You have Christian and you have gospel. That means white and black. I mean, let's. So no one clear.

[Norman Gianfi]

Very clear.

[Kirk Franklin]

So Christian. Christian music is white. Gospel music is black.

[Co-Host]

Yes. 100.

[Norman Gianfi]

Yeah.

[Co-Host]

So if you hear Christian music. If you hear Christian music, you're going.

[Norman Gianfi]

To have a white person, and there's no ambiguity.

[Co-Host]

There's none.

[Norman Gianfi]

No, no. But, but, but, but, but can I also. If you mind. If, if. If I can also celebrate. What he was saying is that this piece of marketing that Norman and his partners brought to the table is what it did for those spaces that were already biased. Is that it humanized the voices in the space.

[Co-Host]

Exactly.

[Norman Gianfi]

That's what it did, is that it allowed people to see themselves in us. Is because being able to have the idea of, you know, we're going to bring cameras into every space. We're going to do intentional marketing to humanize the voices in this space so that they do not sound so iconoclastic. Right. Sound more human. Humanized. And so that has been a great benefit for. Not for not only other artists, but also for myself. And I was always a very public person, but in the partnership, I have seen the benefits of. Of being intrusive in a very intentional way so that people can understand the viability and the relevance of not only just these brands, but also the subject matter.

[Host]

This is interesting because even this. This is revolutionary. This partnership feels revolutionary, but it feels brand, like pretty new.

[Co-Host]

Right?

[Host]

You talking about a tour in 2022.

[Norman Gianfi]

Yeah.

[Host]

But most people look at you as the icon in terms of gospel music. I mean, it changed even from, like the 80s to the 90s. And like, when you came and then it was like, it's praise and worship. It's a totally different sound. But gospel music is still part of the music business.

[Norman Gianfi]

Yeah.

[Host]

And so at what point did you feel like you've grasped the business or you're still learning? Up to this point, obviously you're learning some new things and finding new ways to market. And as you as a leader in that space, I would say, how are you seeing other artists as. As you're growing and your. Your brand is building? Or are we treating it like a business? Or. We always talk about R B artists who sign these contracts that were so negligent and yeah, you know, they didn't know what to ask and the pride and the kind of naive in the space, but we never really hear it in other genres. Was that an experience in that time as well, leading up to current day where we have more information, more resources, obviously great partners?

[Norman Gianfi]

You know, the answer for me is very nuanced because it has been the last decade and a half for me where I've been able to understand the necessity of leaning into longevity. That. That that's going to require more of me being more infused and informed and also having the tools to realize that these are the areas that I can be strong in. See, see the. The difficult thing is that it's not one size fits all for every artist because there are some artists that are or that are maybe more. They are not extroverts. They. They. They may not have the woo wooness about themselves where they can deliver in front of a camera what is necessary for. For his part of the business. But whatever it is is that. What I think is very important is that we need more individuals to surround talent in this space to be able to point out those strengths, maximize and manage those weaknesses so that they can be able to have the opportunity to tap into these new tools or the tools that are now available to them so that we can talk about diversification and even longevity. And that has not always existed. It's because once again we were not privy to the best entertainment lawyers. We were not privy to the booking agents and to the talent agents. William Morris was not running down our space. And when they were running down our space back in the day, it was only just to collect the dollars just for booking. It was not to really to diversify and get them a television and film. Like a lot of times it was always promised. And it's not a slate with W me is because they are a great company. They're just too big. These companies are too big to be able to be in. In the minutia of. How do we speak if it's. It's almost adjacent to the Tyler Perry model is that his voice is so wrapped into the experience of the community is that Hollywood did not know that that was a community that even existed. And so it's kind of privy to that space that there is this. There is this community, there's this island that has always existed that now we cannot rely just on Sunday morning to get the message that we exist there. We've gotta be able to do it Sunday night, Monday morning, Tuesday, Wednesday at the club, in the streets, at the barbershop, wherever we go. We've gotta be able to have talented conversations, especially with the advent of social media, to let people know that we're aware we're formed and we're still relatable to whatever space people need when they need to be inspired and be reminded of life bigger than themselves.

[Co-Host]

I think you, you ask a good question and, and Kirk, you expounded on a number of things, but the straightforward answer is, yeah, the deal sucked. The deals in gospel, like they did everywhere. One of the most disruptive factors of what we did was we were giving royalties to artists without deals. And so we were able to really aggregate some of the best talent in Christian and gospel music at the time because they didn't have to commit anything to work with us at Tribal in Maverick City. Maverick City Publishing. And so a lot of the buildings didn't like what we were doing. We weren't Nashville based. We weren't old white guys from the Midwest. We were some young black dudes from Georgia. And so that, that was kind of disruptive in and of itself from a racial standpoint. But also we were trying to push for an all white format at radio to also play black music. And so when you talk about the deals and when you hear about the 90s, the R B and those horror stories mean Kirk has a horror story. He might not talk about it, I say it, but he had a bad deal at a point.

[Norman Gianfi]

Yes.

[Co-Host]

You know, someone took all of his publishing. Someone took everything from him. Yes. And so in this latter part of his career. Well, I wouldn't even say the latter part. Let God decide that. But at this point in his career, he is now leveraging and monetizing Attaway as an entrepreneur. You know, he's the chief creative officer in my company. He, he makes decisions on what the type of music we're going to put out. We need great. I won't call them gatekeepers, but we need quality control in every genre of music. Not that we need these A R's and say this should come out, this shouldn't, but we also need for us, by us still at a point, you need people that are in the space that understand his value, understand the artist's value, everybody's making money. But what happens when you're in one of these majors? The money's going into this vacuum and out to these people that we've never met. You know what I mean? So as an indie label, I know what, what I need to survive. And I can say, yeah, for real. The artists need to be able to really eat. They need to be able to really see the benefits of the hard work they're doing. He's running around all day promoting his single, his podcast, these things. He should have ownership in that, that you know where the traditional deal is. An artist has they own 15 of this master work they created and they took this loan, essentially $85,000 to do this, their life's work, put out their first album. It does amazing. The labels making millions of dollars. They're not going to redo the deal for you. They're not going to come back and give you a bonus. You, you agreed to it, so you're paying. You pay back everything you gave us off the 15 royalty that I've given you, and I'm gonna keep 85 of every dollar that we made. And then once your 15 has recouped, I'll give you your royalties. And that's on something you created all yourself and they just gave you the money to do it. I just didn't think that was fair.

[Kirk Franklin]

So Kurt, when did you.

[Co-Host]

Is.

[Kirk Franklin]

No, it's similar because obviously. So, okay, you and YG on opposite sides of the spectrum in life. Right. And music.

[Co-Host]

Theoretically.

[Kirk Franklin]

Right.

[Co-Host]

I don't know YG personally. I won't speak to his spirituality, but theoretically, good guy.

[Kirk Franklin]

But I'm just saying when somebody looks.

[Norman Gianfi]

At one, I know him, I know him well.

[Kirk Franklin]

But the reason why I say that is because, you know, we, we had a conversation with YG and he was saying that when he signed his first record deals, it was five albums for 25000 off.

[Co-Host]

That makes sense.

[Kirk Franklin]

And you pretty much. He didn't know what he was getting himself into.

[Co-Host]

Absolutely.

[Kirk Franklin]

And he made mistakes and he learned the business and he realized that he was in a bad deal. You said that you was in a bad deal, right?

[Norman Gianfi]

Yes.

[Kirk Franklin]

When did you realize that you were. You were in a bad deal?

[Norman Gianfi]

Well, and, and, and, and I also want to be able to. To acknowledge it in a space that is that I signed, I signed the deal so it wasn't forced upon me. I signed a deal that was not the most beneficial for me, you know, and, and, and I've had to learn how to phrase it that way because sometimes it has been weaponized against me, even though it's truth that I. That 100 of my publishing was not given to me until almost 20 years into my career. So, you know, and that's. And that is very unfortunate. That's very unfortunate. So it was me understanding and realizing as I continued to matriculate in the space that the information that I was not privy to at the very beginning, other artists and other situations is because what started to happening again was also just the advent of independent individuals. People that were doing it on their own. And people that were doing on their own, social media and social platforms gave them a louder voice. And so what started to happen is that the information that was light years away from us getting now, there are artists that are now giving you the information themselves. And as you see younger artists that are now more empowered and now have more of the tools to be able to be strategic in the navigation of their own future, you realize that you need to make some major paradigmatic changes, right? And so in that, you start to have these divine cosmic collisions that give you the information and the resources. One of the first individuals that I became blessed with, that really became a great enlightenment for me was an individual by the name of Ron Hill. Ron Hill was an individual that interned with me when he was his senior in college. And this was his space, this was his major. And so he equipped me with the information that I did not have. And he had the skill set. Like he's a. He. He is a walking master class, like this individual, like E.J. gaines, like Phil Thornton. And these are the men of color that. That are. That are kind of like the wonder kinds that he's. That he's pulled together. Right. And so with that, you are now able to have all of this. All of this wisdom and information that you're able to tap into. And so these were men that I also found in. In different parts of my journey getting here as well. So the more I understood what I did not have, and the more I was being given the opportunity to understand what I could have just with a couple little small changes. Just some small changes. But those small changes, the value in them has been humbling and overwhelming. And I can't even begin to quantify what it's been.

[Host]

For me, it's. It's been a miraculous journey. As I was thinking about, I remember when you came on the scene in the 90s, and this is like when TRL and. Yeah, that was a thing. And Rap City was a thing. And they were showing your videos.

[Norman Gianfi]

Yeah.

[Host]

I'm thinking to myself, like, this guy's made it to rap. Like, how is this possible? Beating people on the countdowns? And I'm like, yeah, that was a CD area. Right. So you're making money in CDs. I'm sure you have a bunch of platinum records. I mean, yeah, countless. And then music changes.

[Norman Gianfi]

Yes.

[Host]

And it's now a streaming era. Yeah. Not really your expertise, I would assume.

[Norman Gianfi]

Yeah.

[Host]

You are probably familiar with this space. How do you navigate the streaming era coming from an artist who was prominent and thrived in a different era of music?

[Co-Host]

Yeah, I mean gospel act like many genres, I mean like many different genres of music at that time. Gospel remain primarily physical for quite some time. I think that really that changed in the past three to five years. When I came into the space, it's something I noticed they were, you know, you would have artists post, don't, don't go on Apple music, don't go on Spotify, Buy my, you know, actually download, actually buy. And what they were fighting was a tide that was going to overwhelm them. I, I think, you know, one of the main things I focused on was embracing change because the change was coming, it was inevitable. It's like attempting to stop people from using AI now. Like music people are really anti AI now. The change is inevitable. So either you're going to figure out a way to adapt to change or the chain is going to change is going to move you out the way. I remember when everybody used to have a Kodak camera. Now I know everybody uses their iPhone, you know and you know the same company also disrupted music. Itunes is the way, the only way to purchase music now. One of the sole ways to purchase music now was not created by the billion dollar record labels. It was created by a tech company in Silicon Valley. Because disruption is going to happen now you can adapt to it or you could think that you're going to stop it. You're not going to stop convenience. We're in America, people love convenience. It's no different than when they were trying to stop Uber for happening from happening or doordash or Airbnb. Imagine telling some people 20 years ago, you're going to have random strangers living in your house when you're not there. You're going to get in the car with some guy you never met before, he's going to take you to your next loc it right? Or imagine this, he's going to pick up your McDonald's and drop it off to you at 2 o' clock in the morning. You're actually going to let strangers give them your address, come to your house and give you your food that you don't know if, you know, we talk even back in the day, you don't know if they spit in that. Like disruption and convenience are things that we're always going to prioritize as Americans because that's the type of environment we foster. Now, unless there's some socio. Socio physiological change amongst us, which I don't see happening. Convenience is the thing we prioritize. And so when it came to music, it's easier for me to just stream than it is for me to go to Walmart, buy your cd, put, have a CD player, put it in my car, then listen to it. When I have to do that for every single artist instead of just putting you all on one playlist, picking my favorite song and listening to it. So I prioritized streaming. When I came into the space, I was the guy that actually figured out what the streaming record was in gospel. Put. I went through all the charts for like the past 30 years and put that together with my guy Phil Thornton, and Shout out the guys that Kirk mentioned. We all have come together. We're one company. They all work at Insignia. They're the C level executive team, that pro that does what Kirk is talking about. We each sit down in every division and we figure out how the best way to monetize what Kirk is doing, what Mav is doing, what our artists like Ty Galbert, Chandler Moore, Naomi Raine are doing, and what that gives us a leg up on is if you look at the charts, it's indicative. If you look at the gospel charts, you'll see that primarily seven of the top ten records are released by Tribal or something we worked on. You keep going down further than that 8, I think it's 16 out of the top 20. It's because if you don't embrace change, change is going to run you over.

[Kirk Franklin]

How do you feel about the current state of gospel music?

[Co-Host]

Personally? Yeah, I'm very disappointed. I'm worried. The main thing me and this guy discuss all day is how do we. I'm gonna say this before him. After the BET Awards, it was a lot of conversation. The first question this man asked us at dinner was how do we take this opportunity and make it something that's for the entire genre? And the problem with that is the KPIs that major mainstream institutions look at. Many gospel artists don't feel are important. And as long as you don't position yourself in a manner to where you're attractive to the very thing that can broaden the message that we all want to reach everyone. You have to. You have to do certain things. The Bible, you got to become all things to all men to win some. If you need to be fly. If you need to be able to articulate in a certain conversation, you need to be able to Sit down and have a conversation with you guys and be able to articulate and understand business, to push forward the gospel, then be ready to do that. Not being prepared for that conversation, to me is no different than when they buried their talents in the Bible.

[Norman Gianfi]

That's good.

[Co-Host]

You know, I mean, that's how I see it. So when I look at the state of gospel music, I look at a lot of people whining and complaining about something they haven't prepared for.

[Norman Gianfi]

And can I just jump in and say that? That, that, that. That the whining and complaining also is the fatigue of not being able to have the oxygen reach everyone? Yeah, that's what a lot of it is. Also, see the blessing and benefit and the challenge of my career is that it has allowed me to have access. I've been blessed to have access with great minds and with spaces that challenge my thinking, challenge me to want to be able to push forward and have engaging opportunities and conversations, to not only enlighten, but also be enlightened. Where most individuals in my space, their ecosystem is the black church, it's the black conference, it's the black events, it's the black spaces where a lot of the information never gets to that level. And so when you find out that there are other conversations that are happening that you're not privy to, that in itself can breed frustration. And so I think that it is my passion to want to be a conduit, to try to be a catalyst to get that. That information, just to get this. Even if it only impacts one or two, at least we've been able to try to do as much as we can to deposit and invest in individuals that are able to keep the narrative going.

[Host]

Yeah, it's important. I asked the CD question because I was going to church every Sunday and I was sitting the sound part of sound ministry, and I'm making CDs. It's like 2015. I'm like, they don't know that people don't listen to cd, but every Sunday I'm making the cd.

[Norman Gianfi]

Yeah.

[Host]

And so it brings me to the point where I'm like. Like, if the church doesn't get younger, where does it go?

[Co-Host]

Yeah, it does.

[Host]

And so when I'm thinking about the numbers that you said right from the 90s, I don't disagree with you. Like, there was a large percentage of people that identified as Christian and went to church to where we're at today, those numbers. I mean, if you're not declining, I mean, if you're not inclining, you're Declining.

[Kirk Franklin]

You're declining to me.

[Host]

So my question is like, how do we. The state of the, I guess the black church, how do we increase the youth participation in it?

[Norman Gianfi]

Po.

[Kirk Franklin]

Can I say something about that? Cause I don't know if that's entirely true for me. From the outside looking in, it looks like there's more young people. It feels like a renaissance as far as. From what I see now.

[Co-Host]

It is from what I see.

[Kirk Franklin]

Like I said, I'm on the outside looking it. But even Spiritual Word, it's not really a Christian based thing, but it started. That's a long story. But long story short.

[Host]

Well, Mike, wait, hold on.

[Kirk Franklin]

That's how it started.

[Host]

It started like now.

[Norman Gianfi]

Like, that's how what started?

[Co-Host]

The spirit.

[Kirk Franklin]

So Spiritual Word, you know Spiritual Word, the page. The Spiritual Word is a big social media platform. Yeah. They have millions of followers. If you watch their content, it's not Christian based at all, but every now and then they'll throw a sermon in. They'll throw some stuff. So I spoke to the owner before and I'm like, your name is Spiritual Word, but you're not really posting anything spiritually. And he was just saying like he started it as a Christian based platform. It wasn't really getting traction. They changed it to Shade Room. But every now and then he tries to. But long story short, I think that there's a lot of young people that I see that are now becoming religious, embracing that on social media, at least that's what it looks like.

[Co-Host]

They're spiritual. That's the thing.

[Norman Gianfi]

That's it. There you go.

[Host]

I think that's the difference.

[Norman Gianfi]

There you go.

[Host]

I'm talking about the people, like people who identify as spiritual.

[Co-Host]

I'm talking about spiritual.

[Host]

Right? The people that are going to like the youth. Right. I was a teacher for 15 years. Church wasn't even something that students. It's not even a place that they were going. And I was in the community that I was teaching. I was going to church there and I never saw any of my students. I'm like the church two blocks away, nobody's going.

[Norman Gianfi]

Yeah.

[Host]

And then it hit me. I'm like, wait, I looking in New York City. I'm like, are people bringing their children to church? Right. You used to have to go with your grandma, right. Then your mom stopped going, so you stopped going. How do we reverse that cycle though?

[Norman Gianfi]

Yeah.

[Co-Host]

One of the key things, and this is, this is to. To kind of come to what you're saying, what you're. What you see and what you feel and what you notice is what you, what you see across the gospel Christian music space is. And I talked to Kirk about this a lot. The struggle that existed in the 80s and the 90s that made our grandma make us go to church. I'm not saying it doesn't exist anymore, but the way it exists is different. When you think about Kirk Franklin's daughter or my. I have an 18 year old. And even you guys now you're talking about, you're talking about young African American men who likely are billionaires. The way we raise our children is totally different than how we came up. And so what we sought from the black church in the 80s and the 90s isn't the same thing my daughter's gonna seek from church. Yeah, they're seeking a different experience. And when you seek that different experience, it's a different environment. And so a lot of times now you have young African American kids that go to what we would consider evangelical white church because they want to hear a different style of music. That's where their friends go. That's who they went to college with. That's who, that's who they're working with. So no, they're not going to go to the Baptist church around the corner. They're going to the megachurch over here. Because everybody likes the place. They can't get in that. Even churches.

[Kirk Franklin]

Or watching, watching online.

[Co-Host]

Or watching online. The thing that happened with COVID is that black churches were disproportionately unprepared for streaming.

[Norman Gianfi]

Yeah, buddy.

[Co-Host]

When it came time to stream, we. We are, we are experiential people. So we have cameras. Well, they ain't believe. They went. They was making CDs still in 2020.

[Norman Gianfi]

Yeah, buddy.

[Co-Host]

So they was making CDs and selling the pastor sermon it every mega. All the. The evangelical white church. They were prepared. They were streaming already that huge. They were having huge numbers already.

[Norman Gianfi]

Yeah.

[Co-Host]

And that's why you saw the advent of Mike Todd, Pastor Mike Ty. And that's why his church blew up. It's because he was one of the few black pastors at the time that was tapped in.

[Norman Gianfi]

It was tapped in.

[Co-Host]

Tapped in and ready to go. And Maverick City at the time, they were one of the only groups still making music. They grew up at the time. They became the worship team for all of America. And so much like anything else, once streaming was necessary, then everybody's trying to catch up, everybody's trying to get there. One of the foundations of my company was we were doing almost 700 services for churches from my House every Sunday during COVID because wow, churches, they didn't know how to stream it. And then at that point people started to record early because you had to be live. And then Facebook was crashing, YouTube was crashing. You had to have a way to have a redundancy. And a lot of churches just didn't have or could afford to set that up last minute. So what we're talking about and how when you talk about things are growing, it's growing, it's just not going in the black church.

[Norman Gianfi]

Well, and then I also want to jump in and say, if you don't mind, it's growing, but it is not growing in the traditional monotheistic, monotheistic ideal that, that, that, that we were raised at, it is very much Jesus adjacent. It's very much.

[Kirk Franklin]

What's that mean?

[Norman Gianfi]

Meaning that you have now younger Christians that don't believe in Jesus and crystals. That, that, that, that, that, that, that, that it's both. And now where, where, where there is this, there is this pluralistic ideal that has permeated in the younger generation. And a lot of these churches that they go to are almost like Christian spas, the Christian spots. You're gonna get your neck rub, you're gonna feel good, you're gonna get your feet done, you're gonna get your head done. You know, everything is about the betterment. It's almost like spiritual TED Talks. So, so, so, so it's not challenging people. And so you gotta remember, you know, man, think about gospel music, God's music, talked about the cross, talk about the blood of Jesus and talking about, you know, you know, God forgive me for my sins.

[Co-Host]

He's able.

[Norman Gianfi]

Yeah, he's able. I'm, I mean you talk to a younger generation, what's sin? What sin? Sin is a man made construct to a lot of these individuals. And so this is not to demonize the next generation. I'm saying that these things begin to also filter down to the music. It's going to impact the music. When you are a gangster rapper, it's hardest to rap like that. When you move to Brentwood, it's easy to rap like that when you still live in Compton, but when you move, when you move to Beverly Hills, it's going to affect your music, it's going to affect your, it's going to affect the fire of your lyrical content. And what has happened is, is that American culture has moved from the. And, and I can't say, I humbly can't say all of it is bad. It's because I think a Lot of what we were grouped into a lot of or, or, or indoctrinated into was also dogma. It was also the, the, the, the residue of colonialism, you know, and the residue of puritanism. And, and because that's what. That, that those are the tenets of Western Christianity, Western Christianity, the tenets are colonialism and Puritanism. And so those did not really speak to the needs.

[Kirk Franklin]

Slavery.

[Norman Gianfi]

Well, that, that is the birth of colonialism and puritanism, you know what I'm saying? It's like the mama of colonialism and the dad of puritanism. Birth, slavery. Right. And so we understand that, that, that, that, that Western Christ, Western Christianity's role in that space and even what gospel music was at the time was what. How I got over. Lord help me to get through Lord keep me strong. And so now that we're seeing people being able to be elevated from these spaces, it's going to impact the music and it's also going to impact their idea of who God is.

[Co-Host]

Good.

[Kirk Franklin]

Well, let me ask you this. You guys spoke about tech a lot. Another one of our friends, Timbaland, he got a lot of heat recently. You saw that we're working with him on something. Okay. He signed. Not that, but he signed the AI artist.

[Co-Host]

Yeah.

[Kirk Franklin]

And people were very disappointed in him. They were let down. The artists just said that he was betraying the art of music and that some people even went as far to say that this is demonic. I saw it. What is your thoughts on AI's role in music?

[Co-Host]

Anything can be used for the good of God. Anything. I believe that. I don't believe anything under the sun cannot be used for the benefit of God. So whether that's AI, whether that's whatever. I mean, there's certain things that are, you know, people, someone said, well, what about porn? Well, sex was created by God to be in the confines of marriage. So I'm just going to come to that point to say everything has a purpose that God intended for as, as it pertains to Timberland. Overall, I'm going to stick to what I said earlier. You can fight the tide all you want. The tide is going to overwhelm. Will people decide that, that they don't like to listen to an AI generated artist? We don't know yet. It's like being early to anything. Right. If you talk about being early in the streaming, people say, I'll never download Spotify, I'll never download Apple music. The artists don't get the money. They're paying pennies on the dollar. Now, you couldn't find a CD if you wanted one, you know what I mean? So to me, I believe Timberland's early. I was maybe too early. I think he's going to be the one that bears the brunt of, of the frustration of art that artists exist in. Because you're saying basically you're taking publishing, you're taking royalties, and you're giving them all to the person that creates this AI entity. But I believe that's where music will go. When you talk about 10, 20 years from now, I do believe many artists will simply be AI creations. From the minds of the Kirk Franklins of the world, from the minds of the Drakes of the world, from the DJ Khaled's of the world, from the whatever, because it's just going to be more convenient. I don't got to get a session together. I don't got to pay for studio time. I don't got to pay producers whenever you could find a throughput to cheaper and higher roi. You cannot fight the tide of efficiency, of efficiency. People are not going to do something that is inefficient for the feeling of it. Even if they say that they will on camera, behind the scenes, they're going to figure out a way to do it and mask it under some different umbrella. And I've already heard and had those conversations currently. So 10, 20 years from now, I believe a lot of music will be AI mood driven. Imagine you being able to pick up your phone and based on how you're feeling, it creates music to make you feel and that. I'm getting ready to go to the club. Boom, you got exactly what you want. I'm getting ready to go to church. Boom, you got exactly what you want. My wife's about to have a baby. Boom, you got exactly what you want. I need to get my baby to bed. Imagine having the most soothing playlist ever to get your baby to bed. No one's going to fight that.

[Norman Gianfi]

That one thing that I can, can, can, can, can, can say to it. Let me, let me just give just a little. Let me just give just a little small twist to it, if you don't mind. In my time, in my book, you know, it's because on the, in the conversation, I'm the OG at the table, right? You know, you know, you know, I'm 87 years old, right? Is I remember the advent of the conversation of cloning and, and I remember how big you can. You're thinking, I think you know where I'm going. And it Was a big conversation and people had a lot of anxiety about cloning. You didn't know where it was going. One thing that I think that you can never, ever duplicate, and I think that the younger generation continue to speak loud about this as well, is authenticity. One thing that you will not be able to just manipulate is authentic voices is because no matter how much information and technology continues to grow, we are still with our species, given these, these, these, these interesting dynamics of emotions and affections that we still look for authentic voices to speak into. And I believe that, that, that, that storytellers, even though the stories may be told different, there still has to be a certain level of authenticity to the story that I believe that only our species can deliver. And that's why I believe that you didn't see much of cloning continue to advance, is because people still want to be able to hold in. In a time where the survival of our species is already so questionable, with the political tension that we see globally, you know, when we see this geopolitical tension that we're living in right now, people are begging and pulling for something that is foundational, something that is rooted in something that they can. It's almost like when my 1, 1, 1, one of my favorite movies is Inception. And I love the fact that in Inception he was able to go into these different levels of, of, of these unrealities. But he needed something to remind him of the truth. Right. And so he needed that spinner. Yeah, yeah. Just to remind him of true soul. So as much as technology and informations and as humans that we advance, I believe that one thing about art and the reason why real art is because you're even talking about, Think about as much as technology, information has continued to grown, a Picasso still has his value, is that because there's something authentic about the narrative of where this individual was when he painted it. And so I think that music and storytellers are still going to have a place we're going to find these ebbs and flows of AI, different levels of technology. But I'm still comfortable that when people have pain, they're going to need a real voice to speak to that pain.

[Host]

You bring up the, the. A good point in terms of AI and music, But I want to know your thoughts about AI in the church. Because we've seen agentic agents that are now pastors. We've seen pastors who use AI to help create sermon. That's a complete shift right when we're talking about, obviously the story of the Bible interpretation of it. But the Authenticity of the actual person who's delivering the message. Do you see that becoming disruptive AI inside of the actual church?

[Co-Host]

I don't know.

[Norman Gianfi]

I still believe that as we continue to try to push and see how far these barriers can go or these boundaries can go, I do believe that there still will be a ceiling that will happen in the hearts and minds of individuals. That they will still find a space that they still want to be able to. It's like for example, you know, and, and, and I say this with great humility. Great, great, great gratefulness. 10, 10 years ago, 15 years ago, would you ever thought that people would have stayed up to 12 and 1 o' clock in the morning to hear 55 year old gospel artists end a black award show?

[Host]

Only if his name was Kirk Frank.

[Norman Gianfi]

Well, forget him, he ain't by now. I'm just saying that, that, that it still says that. It still says that for individuals there's still something about voices that they still want to be able to hear and hold on to. And so even though there are, there's a myriad of voices that have advanced far beyond Kirk Franklin, there's still something, by the grace of God, I'm very grateful. I don't know why, but it's still something that whatever the music that God trusted to loan me still anchors people, some people. And so I believe that no matter how much we try to curate these ideals outside of humans, people are still going to want that pastor, that, that social leader, that artist, that storyteller to be the one to say, I'm telling this because I lived it. It. This came from me being in prison. This came from me being in jail. This came from me having a cancer scare. And so I am, I am aware, but I'm not afraid.

[Host]

I only ask that because it goes back to the first question of if there's less people actually going to the institution of the church. Right. And they're getting more influence.

[Norman Gianfi]

They were building new churches, we're building new churches. This is church now?

[Co-Host]

Now, absolutely.

[Norman Gianfi]

This is true.

[Co-Host]

Church is a gathering of believers.

[Norman Gianfi]

And there you go. There you go.

[Co-Host]

I think we'll have a, we'll have a unique concept on it. I think you're Den of Kings. Den of King is church. Yeah. What we're talking about is, it's two things and I don't want to conflate them is I don't think you'll ever eliminate actual people making music. I don't think we'll eliminate it. I do believe there will be AI artists. It's no different. I used to work in banking, and I remember when I first started working in Banking Spy. I'm aging something. 40 years old. I was 20 years ago. Basically. I was young. I was in college. I was one of the personal bankers. And they talked about how people. No matter what's happening in online banking, people will always want to come into the bank to meet with somebody, have a conversation. Okay, when's the last time any of us in here have been inside a bank? The point I'm making is people still go inside the bank. I'm not saying anything will be eliminated, but the way we do it will drastically change. All of us have a bank app on our phone right now. And back when I started back, that was foreign. People came into the bank to learn how to download the app, login. I don't want to put my password in all my. We relax. All of that for convenience. And that's why the only way I see technology slowing down and changing our way of life is if we decide philosophically that convenience isn't the thing that drives how we spend our money.

[Norman Gianfi]

And that's where I lean in. Exactly. That little crack of light that he just said is. I believe that problems, challenges, sickness, struggles, Issues are things that will force individuals to respond differently at different moments in time. Is because we are wired to. Is that one thing that we cannot do is we cannot unwire the human species and our experiences.

[Kirk Franklin]

Well, Kurt, let me ask you this. As far as you talked about off camera, you know, sometimes it's difficult when you're looked at a certain way. Right. Like, yeah, if you're a regular R B artist or a rapper or, you know, you don't have the same pressures as somebody who's looked at as a man of God.

[Norman Gianfi]

Yeah.

[Kirk Franklin]

You're held to a higher standard.

[Norman Gianfi]

Yeah. Unfortunately. Fortunate. Fortunately.

[Co-Host]

Fortunate and unfortunate. Both. Both. I think so.

[Norman Gianfi]

I would love to hear the fortunate.

[Co-Host]

I mean, the fortunate part of it is that people honor you in a way that they don't honor certain artists when they come in here. There are certain artists that come in here. These. They have a. Not to speak for y' all. There's a certain reverence.

[Host]

Right.

[Co-Host]

For you because you maintain a standard of living. Now, it is not to say you're perfect, but it's fortunate also because God sees it. It. That's one. But two, there's a respect that, you know, they not in here. Not to say you got smoke. They wouldn't be in here just smoking blunts when you come in. They're not going to be in here just with liquor. There's a reverence and respect. Not to say those things are wrong.

[Host]

Right.

[Co-Host]

That's just a reverence and respect. That's why I've been fortunate and unfortunate.

[Host]

Yeah. There's a tie between. Like I said, when I heard your voice, I'm like, oh, my God, I've heard that voice so many times. There's a connection in the home, there's a connection in the church, and there's a connection in real life life. So when people see you, there's just a level of automatic respect outside of it. Yes, that's the og but it's like, no, that's a man of God. Like, no, he's not Jesus Christ, but he's a follower of Jesus Christ.

[Norman Gianfi]

Found it. I have found. I have not found it in my career and in my lifetime to be fortunate.

[Kirk Franklin]

Well, that's what I was gonna say. I want to get that even.

[Co-Host]

I knew that.

[Host]

I know he gonna say, why not? But that's why.

[Norman Gianfi]

Yeah, I have enough. Yeah. And I have not found it beneficial for even those that also would serve in that role as well. I think that it is the greatest misnomer of our human experience. It's once again going back to the very much of the iconoclastic ideals. You know, I'm not Catholic, and I know that there are beautiful people, there are beautiful humans on this planet that subscribe to Catholic ideals. But when you look at the corruption that has happened historically in Catholicism for centuries, for millennia, and. And the Roman Catholic Church to still maintain its power and influence on the globe, it is because humans still want to hold on to. They still need an idea of a tangible individual to. To usher them into the presence of God because they do not feel worthy enough. That in itself is problematic on so many levels. That's what I'm trying to say. I'm trying to say that if you respond to me different than you do Lil Wayne, I'm saying I find that extremely problematic is because God doesn't. God does not view me different than Lil Wayne. And so those are the things that I continue to be committed to deconstruct is because it's problematic for the person that you do it to, and it's problematic for the person that you do it against.

[Kirk Franklin]

Well, on that.

[Norman Gianfi]

That's my soapbox. I'm sorry.

[Kirk Franklin]

No, that was. That wasn't. That was extremely insightful. The Jamaica situation. Right. These are people that are Christians. So how does that play? Because that's a whole different conversation of like, okay, it's one thing for people to judge you a certain way because. But it's like, now you got religious people.

[Norman Gianfi]

Yes, yes.

[Kirk Franklin]

Who. That's even more. Because you don't want to offend somebody. And that's the same religion as you.

[Norman Gianfi]

Yes.

[Kirk Franklin]

So how did that impact you?

[Norman Gianfi]

Well, and I also think that it reveals even this conversation because it wasn't all Jamaicans. It was some Jamaicans, but there were other Jamaicans that would like, if, if, if you were into the, the, the, the comment section, they were, they were having their own arguments about it. There was one Jamaican that said, y' all wanted him to have a suit on it. Pass out. And y' all know. And they said, and you know, our health care system down here, son. You know what I'm saying? And I thought that was hilarious. So. But it's the. But. But once again, I think that it's the tension because dogma has led the narrative for our species on the planet of how think is godly. And so what I have to do is I have to understand those nuances. I can't fight them. I have to pick and choose when I fight them. I have to pick and choose when I speak against them. And I have to pick and choose when it's time to acquiesce to that reality, because there is a reality that I exist in that I understand. That's the construct of a lot of individuals that subscribe to monotheistic ideals. And so because of that, I must digress in moments, acquiesce to the reality of that, and try to maneuver the best that I can with truth and authenticity.

[Co-Host]

I think to your point, just to add, is that most often we read the Bible, but we don't comprehend it. You know, the same people, they're ignoring that David danced out of his clothes. They just ignore that whole entire scripture. He literally danced out of his clothes. But.

[Norman Gianfi]

And was an adulterer at the same.

[Co-Host]

Time, you know, and a murderer. He killed his best friend, took his wife, had a, Had a kid with her.

[Norman Gianfi]

Yeah.

[Co-Host]

It's better than any Real Housewives that's watching this. But let's all. This is the man after God's own.

[Norman Gianfi]

Yes.

[Co-Host]

Heart.

[Norman Gianfi]

Yes.

[Co-Host]

That's what he. That's who he was.

[Norman Gianfi]

Moses, the murderer was the one that God used. But we don't say murderer, but Moses was a murderer.

[Co-Host]

And this is the key to all of this. When you talk about believers disagreeing at all. We all want to see ourselves in the Bible as the heroes. Right. When people look at The Bible, everybody wants to be David or Joseph or Jonah or Paul, or we would more likely be the people when the woman got caught in act of adultery, holding the stones, ready to stone her.

[Norman Gianfi]

That's good.

[Co-Host]

That's who we are. That's who we are as believers.

[Norman Gianfi]

Now we have cancer culture at our core.

[Co-Host]

At our core, we are Cancel culture. I'm more saved than you. I. I'm not as bad as you.

[Norman Gianfi]

Yes.

[Co-Host]

I'm not having pride. And being a prideful person, that has to. Whatever is as bad as being is as bad as any other sin.

[Norman Gianfi]

And if we look at it biblically, it's also. If we look at it biblicentrically, it is really the greater. I mean, there's not a greater button, button, button. But if you look at how much it returns in scripture, pride is the one. Pride is one. But, you know, growing up in church, if. If you were sleeping, having sexful marriage, you was going, you know, that's. It's something like you felt like that. That's all God cared about. You know what I'm saying? It's who you were smashing in in the youth choir.

[Kirk Franklin]

Well, how do you. It's a thin line, but.

[Norman Gianfi]

Okay, give me the thin line, friend.

[Kirk Franklin]

Because. Because one group of people say, like, yeah, you can't be judgmental. Everybody. Nobody's perfect. Everybody sins. He without sin cast the first stone. All of that. But that kind of does lead to just doing anything and just saying, well, you know, God knows my heart. God knows my heart.

[Norman Gianfi]

People, they just do anything and they.

[Co-Host]

Like, yo, that's not my heart.

[Norman Gianfi]

I'm so ready to respond. Go ahead, King.

[Co-Host]

No, I'm. I'm. I'm quick and I'm g. Give as quick. I'mma pass it straight to you.

[Kirk Franklin]

All right.

[Co-Host]

It's quick. I'mma pass it straight to you. It's not. It's not. That's not it. So people often believe if you. If you don't slap people with sin, that they are going to then trample on grace.

[Norman Gianfi]

Yes.

[Co-Host]

They're going to trample on grace.

[Norman Gianfi]

We've talked.

[Co-Host]

Yes.

[Norman Gianfi]

There you go.

[Co-Host]

It's clear. You give people grace and truth.

[Norman Gianfi]

Yes.

[Co-Host]

Okay. It's. That's. It's having sex outside of marriage or fornication. Sin. Yes. Is it difficult to stay away from. Yes.

[Norman Gianfi]

It's both hands.

[Co-Host]

It's both. And. And to sit. To say that God knows my heart. He does. And that's a good and a bad thing. God knows whether you believe in him truly or you Don't. So when you say God knows your heart. Yeah, he does. That's what I always tell someone one. And at the same time, you should judge people. You should tell them the truth. You should say to your homeboy, hey, bro, you gotta stop smashing all them girls. But can I tell my homeboy I understand why he's smashing all those girls? Yes. And that's the part that gets missed, is that when you go to church often. Yeah. You hear you shouldn't do that, but you don't hear the empathy behind. I understand why. And here is how. Here are how and ways you cannot do that. That's the part that's missing.

[Norman Gianfi]

And please let me jump in and say this. The reason why on this planet the Protestant faith has so many different denominations is because of that issue right there. It's because people need to control the narrative of the process of other humans. So the Methodists will say, okay, you guys are trying to take advantage. And so from that, then you get the Pentecostals. And then the Pentecostals say, well, you got to live holy. Okay, well, yeah, but you're going to live holy on the Sabbath. So you get the Sabbath Pentecostals. Like when you look at Protestant, when you look at the Protestant faith in America, no other branch of faith has so many denominations. Denominations like the monotheistic ideal of Christianity, that's problematic. You've got Pentecostal, you've got Church of God in Christ, you got Apostolic, you've got Paw, which probably the same thing. You've got Methodist, you got Lutheran, you got Baptist, you got missionary Baptist. I mean, so many branches. And it was all birthed out of this idea. Okay, well, y' all are taking advantage of this. Well, y' all don't do this enough now. And it becomes so overwhelming that guess what people do now. Here we are, 25 years later, 34 people have gone to church. That's what's happened.

[Host]

Because non denomination.

[Norman Gianfi]

Oh, no. Well, even non denominational, once again, some of that is not becoming country clubs, TED Talks. You're becoming all these other frameworks. It really is.

[Co-Host]

Non denominational is a reaction to all of the denomination. That's. It's a denomination in and of itself.

[Norman Gianfi]

Beautifully said.

[Co-Host]

Beautifully is a reaction.

[Norman Gianfi]

God, nobody argues with you. If you want to go drink 1492 at your club, 1942, I say that that means you just saw.

[Host]

We don't know it.

[Norman Gianfi]

Just call it what I just call it.

[Co-Host]

My point exactly.

[Norman Gianfi]

And guess what? If you wanted to drink 1492, I would not argue with you. I would allow you to drink whatever a nasty drink you want to drink is because there is no there. There is no debate outside of this space because people allow you to be you. But when you come here, we think that we've got to hold people to a standard that God does not even hold us to. And it's becoming overwhelming. And we are missing people with the great news. And it's simple. Because here's the simple message. Kings. God made man, man rejected God. And God won't stop until he wins. Man. Back, back.

[Co-Host]

Amen.

[Host]

Amen.

[Norman Gianfi]

It's that simple.

[Host]

Amen.

[Norman Gianfi]

Anything else is problematic.

[Host]

Norman Kirk, We. We must do this again as we rap.

[Norman Gianfi]

I don't want to rap. I want to. Come on, give me some more. Give me two more. Give me two more, man. I love the. I love the platform. I'm super fans. Give me two more. Can we do two more to do? You got my man all sharp coming up here. Come on, man. Let us give us some more.

[Host]

He was on point. I. I was gonna actually go. I mean, we could talk about. Do it again before we go, but I was going to talk about that prosperity. Right. And doing God's work and that. That fine balance. Right. As they see you achieving success. Why does he have that? Is he really following God? Is he. I mean, he's. Look at what he's doing with his money. People watching that. How do you. I mean, how do you deal with that outside of that. That from a mental standpoint? Because the mental health piece is important, too, inside the church. How do you manage that?

[Norman Gianfi]

I'll do the mental health part. You do the.

[Co-Host]

The finance, the prosperity thing. I think the easier way to look at it is this. I've always held disbelief. It's easier to. To. To look at it from this vantage point. You. I think we all can relate to the thing of. A homeless man comes and knocks on you, though he wants a hundred dollars. Right. Or he wants money. Money. And people always say, I don't give homeless people money because I don't know what they're gonna do with it. Right. There's this idea as Americans that we have. It's Western, it's very Western, that unless the person does with the money, what I intend for them to do is I don't want to give it.

[Norman Gianfi]

Yeah.

[Co-Host]

The truth of the matter is the principle is about a heart. It's about a heart issue. It's a heart issue. The truth is we're selfish.

[Norman Gianfi]

Yeah.

[Co-Host]

And instead of just saying we're Selfish. We say, he gonna go buy drugs. Where is the. Where do you get that from? Where do you get the notion from that when you give money to your church, they have to spend it the way you would want them to spend it. The biblical principle is about you giving to God first.

[Norman Gianfi]

Yes, that's it.

[Co-Host]

Whether it's. That's it. The biblical principle about giving to the homeless is about giving to charity. Who cares what the homeless man does with the money? The. The reward for you is that your heart posture is in the right place. So this is how I see prosperity. And in ministry, they're doing a job, they're making money. God walks on gold. The result of being excellent at anything is generally success. And in America or in most cultures, success generally leads to wealth. If a pastor is wealthy, it doesn't hurt me, it doesn't hurt anyone that when someone looks at him, they see, okay, boom. So people ask me all the time.

[Kirk Franklin]

There'S a thing of taking advantage of your company.

[Co-Host]

There's some people that do.

[Kirk Franklin]

That happens.

[Co-Host]

There's something. And there's CEOs that take advantage of their customers.

[Kirk Franklin]

That's true.

[Co-Host]

In no way of business or walk of life is. I don't want to use the term perversion, but where it is perversion. So there are CEOs that take advantage of people. You had this Sam Blackman fine, that ftx. He stole billions of dollars from people. Bernie Madoff was the head of the nasdaq. He stole billions of dollars for people. Are there pastors that steal from the congregation? Yes. Are there pastors that don't? Yes. Are there CEOs that don't treat their workers right? Yes. Or do people still work there? Yes. So are you going to throw away your iPhone because you don't like the. Or did you stop getting Ubers because that was uber culture and they were being mean to women?

[Norman Gianfi]

No.

[Co-Host]

Everybody's still ordering Ubers today. So know what? I. I don't like people's disingenuous approach to how they problem solve anything else. There's bad churches. They're good. They're good churches. There's bad pastors. There's good pastors, there's terrible CEOs. There's good CEOs. And we still, we're on a target boycott targets earnings have increased quarter over quarter. We, we're. But we're boycotting. I'm just saying that we, we disagree with something. We're saying we're against something thing. It doesn't stand. But we do hold it really tightly. Against the church. Yes. I. I'm okay with a pastor being rich, just as I'm. Just as I'm okay with the CEO being rich.

[Norman Gianfi]

What. What I can say, though, is that it also is necessary to continue to teach people that. That the institution of church and the ones that run these institutions, we cannot model our pursuit of God through them. And I think that those are the construct always committed to deconstruct with American culture and with global ideals that are monotheistic, is that we've got to get to people. And. And that was the part of the. Of even the Reformation, right. Is that Martin Luther at the time, was continuing to try to tell people we can go to God now ourselves. And so that is the narrative that Kirk is so passionate about. I'm passionate about, like. Like, I can be on a plane and. And it's a little bit adjacent to this conversation. I could be on a plane, bros. And I'm blessed to sit in first class, and people are getting on the plane, and some people will notice me on the plane. And I've heard people say, oh, I know this plane ain't gonna crash now. God on the plane. And I'm thinking, negro, Christians die. Christians die in plane crashes every day. People think that because I'm on the plane, the plane can't crash. I've got to fix that. We. We've got to. We've got to fix that.

[Kirk Franklin]

The Savior. Savior complex.

[Co-Host]

Yeah.

[Norman Gianfi]

Amen, bro. It happens all time. So many times. I'm in the store, in the mall. Kirk, will you pray for man? I, you know, is. I know, Kirk. It's. I know God hear your prayers. And I have to stop. I have to stop constant. I have to stop constantly, bro. Or my sister. I need for you to know.

[Co-Host]

I.

[Norman Gianfi]

First of all, I'll be more than happy to pray for you, but when I do, please know God hears your prayers just as clear as he does mine. But it is such a constant wiring of us. That's why it's problematic for me when people hold me to a higher standard is because I know what it means intrinsically. I know it means that you don't think you're worth enough to get to God, but I am. And that pisses me off that we have already created that in individuals. And what also pisses me off is that we have religious leaders that are not joining me and trying to debunk that ideal as well.

[Co-Host]

Well, I think.

[Host]

Has it always been that way? Like, there's no bit of ego on the ascension to where you're at now that it wasn't that way. Has it always been that way?

[Norman Gianfi]

It has always been a problem for me. It has always been. I, I intrinsically has. Intrinsically have always been uncomfortable. And it has been difficult for me to see the weaponization of leadership in my community through, Through. Through the space of the black church in the black community. Community. Yes. I, I played for. For a church that was in a neighborhood in Fort Worth where some of the biggest drug kingpins existed in America. In that small Black neighborhood existed 32 churches. In this one neighborhood, 32 churches. But the biggest drug kingpins. I'm crack cocaine in the 80s in America existed in. I mean, you can look it up in Fort Worth, Texas. Some of the biggest kingpins in America lived in Fort Worth, Texas, in this community called Lake Coma. 32 churches. But drugs and kingpins were able to exist with no problem. That's a challenge for me. And it was a challenge for me even when I had a Jerry curl. So, so, so now, going back to the issue of mental health, I believe that religion does contribute to mental health. Religion can contribute to the issues of trauma. And our people is because if people do not see themselves good enough, how can they become healthy in their finances, in their homes, in their families, in their own mental space if they feel that they need something to exist outside of them, outside of their creator, to be able to be good individuals, to be able to see themselves as. As valuable, is that we need to continue to see church as a hospital. And everybody in there, including the man behind the pulpit, is a patient. No one is a doctor.

[Kirk Franklin]

Before we leave, the last question. Given the times that we're in right now, this is something that I even. Do you ever lose hope for humanity? We see what happens in Israel and Iran and then Palestine and then Congo and Sudan. And it's just like we've been on this earth for thousands of years and still can't figure out how to live together peacefully. Right? And it's like after a while, do you just say, like, it's almost like, doomed on a certain level. Right? Like, it's very depressing where we just keep going through these things year after year after year, and people are dying and babies are dying, and it's just like Ukraine, Russia. Like, yes, given the state of the times that we're in, like, what's your thought process and what's the word for the people?

[Norman Gianfi]

Yeah, man. Let me say this. First of all, even as you begin to talk, I begin to wail inside because I can be very Kind of transparent. I feel you. I feel you deeply, brother. It's because again, being. I'm 55 years old, I mean, I was raised in the space of faith. That's all I know. And so it has always been problematic for me too. I remember September 11th and how that following Sunday you couldn't. I mean, you would think that Drake was performing at the church because it was standing line only because people were trying to get in, because people were so afraid. And then as that began to wear off, then people began to go, you know, I remember when George Floyd happened, like we all know, and people were so adamant about trying to make change, and then it just begins to go away. I believe that what's going to make a greater change that, that, that, that that can be more substantial and more substantive, that we can be able to see consistently is that I need the help of other leaders that will push the narrative of our broken humanity and the fact that we are not perfect individuals. And I think that as long as we have that, that as long as we continue to celebrate and push our political leaders like Donald Trump and other individuals that do not reflect any attributes of a Christian character, is that we will continue to become victims and slaves to these ongoing problems. Because these problems have to do with the wickedness of the hearts of the leaders. And until we acknowledge that there is a, that there is a seed given in every human of choice and when people have the ability to choose evil, we must hold that decision accountable not with creating other levels of evil, but with the level of unified compassion, unified grace, unified love. That we, that, that, that has a uniformity, that collectively we say that this is the answer is that this love and grace that they need is the same love and grace that I need. Because see, here's the problem with the arguments of judgment. The arguments of judgment is that people never include themselves in the arg it you are just as guilty as I'm because you are just as dirty. Even though you may didn't shoot somebody, you thought a bad thought. And in the eyes of God it is just as equal as anybody else. And until we begin to see ourselves as the needy and not the ones that are always having is that until that problem, until that paradigm shifts, we will for millennia after millennia after millennia have this question and this conversation. I don't know the answer right now. I don't know the when, I don't know the how. But I do know that are there and the answers are there. We just don't respond to it. We don't Pick it up. We, we, we. You know, you can, you can create the medicine, but how to get people to take it is the lifelong response of our species of how do we do that?

[Co-Host]

And my, my simple answer to it is that I don't lose hope in humanity. It reminds me that God is real. As long as sin exists, we'll have death. As long as there's disparity, we're gonna have war. And the answer to it all is God alone. And so it gives me hope. You use the perfect examples. I think oftentime moments, all things work together for the good of those that love the Lord and are called according to his purpose. So at 911 there are people that were saved from 9 11. When you look at what's happening in Palestine and Israel, they aren't ways that we would have decided to do things, to draw people, people to God. But he knows and he does all. And then the perfect example for me is this. If I had to save the world, I only have one son. I only have one son. If I had to save the world, there's no way that if I could do it any way possible. You got one. So if I could do it any way possible that I would choose to kill my only son, put him on a cross, send him through the most brutal, embarrassing death you could think of for all mankind. For all mankind. So if that is how God decided to save the world, I can only imagine the things that we look at as evil or bad and the actual intent of those things can be something good. Because when we look at the struggle that Jesus went through, none of us could imagine to say that if my only son went through that, that, that something good would come up. The only way we know good come up came of it now is supposed to been centuries and the story has been told, the story will be told of some of these things. We look at it's calamity and there could have been some good in it.

[Norman Gianfi]

I honestly like his answer much better than me.

[Kirk Franklin]

Thank you brothers. Appreciate the comments. I'll do it again.

[Norman Gianfi]

Honored honor so much and go pick.

[Host]

Up do it again.

[Norman Gianfi]

Of Kings. Check it out.

[Host]

Go get that.

[Norman Gianfi]

It's on the YouTube Kirk Franklin and it's, it's, it's. We are so grateful how people responded to it. It's really dope.

[Host]

I appreciate you.

[Co-Host]

Thank you, man. This was dope, man.

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