No More Tricks | 8

Summary

Easy Money: The Charles Ponzi Story
Episode: No More Tricks | 8
Release Date: July 28, 2025

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Introduction

In Episode 8, titled "No More Tricks," of the Apple Original podcast Easy Money: The Charles Ponzi Story, host Maya Lau delves deeper into the intricate and tragic narrative of Charles Ponzi—the man whose name became synonymous with one of history’s most infamous financial scams. This episode intertwines dramatic reenactments with historical insights, painting a comprehensive picture of Ponzi's rise, fall, and enduring legacy.

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Ponzi and Rose’s Relationship

The episode opens with Maya Lau reflecting on her extensive research into Ponzi's life, emphasizing her efforts to connect personally with historical events through interviews and family accounts:

Maya Lau [00:02]: "The thing about telling a story from a hundred years ago is that you're always looking for ways to feel closer to it."

A pivotal moment in Ponzi’s personal life is explored through the lens of his relationship with Rose Janeco, his wife. Through conversations with Scott Janeco, a relative of Rose, listeners gain intimate insights into their marriage:

Scott Janeco [00:24]: "The Geneco family, if you will, would gather for cookouts. And I certainly have memories of Rose being there. She used to hand out $5 bills. I talked to my sister recently. She goes, no, they were $20 bills."

The reenactment captures the tenderness and volatility of their relationship, particularly during Ponzi’s arrest. A recreated dialogue illustrates their emotional struggle:

Charles Ponzi [04:12]: "Dross, listen to me. I."

Rose Ponzi [04:19]: "What is it?"

This interaction sets the stage for Ponzi’s confessions and Rose’s unwavering support, highlighting the personal toll of his financial manipulations.

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The Arrest and Its Immediate Aftermath

As Ponzi faces imminent arrest, the episode portrays his attempt to maintain normalcy and control. Maya Lau narrates the tension-filled moments leading up to his detention:

Maya Lau [05:51]: "Many Ponzi schemers try to buy themselves more time. Ponzi did it not only at the office, but at home, too."

During his confrontation with the Attorney General, Ponzi vehemently denies wrongdoing, showcasing his denial and defiance even in the face of overwhelming evidence:

Charles Ponzi [12:29]: "I don't owe even half that. Where these numbers come from."

Attorney General [14:32]: "I have the agreement in writing. If you want to put up a fight, then I can have it before a judge within the hour."

Despite his resistance, the legal system moves forward, resulting in Ponzi’s arrest. Rose steps in to defend him publicly:

Rose Ponzi [11:02]: "I know that not everybody has the faith in my husband that I have... To meet my husband is to like him. But to know him well is to love him."

Her speech underscores her dedication, even as Ponzi's world unravels.

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Impact on Associates and Victims

The collapse of Ponzi’s scheme had far-reaching effects, not only on investors but also on his associates. Maya Lau details the fallout:

Maya Lau [16:11]: "At the time of the collapse, roughly 10,000 people still had money invested with Ponzi."

Key figures like Joseph Daniels and Lucy Melley faced legal repercussions, emphasizing the scheme's pervasive impact. Despite legal actions, the repayment to victims was minimal:

Maya Lau [16:56]: "The victims received their fifth and final payout on 12-20-19. A Christmas bonus, as the press called, was for just $8 each."

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Personal Stories from Victims

The human cost of Ponzi’s schemes is poignantly illustrated through interviews with victims like Barbara, a retired schoolteacher who recently fell prey to a similar scam:

Barbara [17:23]: "I have lost many nights of sleep. There's no doubt it's affected my personality."

Her recounting reveals the deep emotional and financial scars left by such frauds. Maya Lau interviews Barbara to highlight the enduring pain and the struggle to rebuild:

Barbara [19:09]: "I have not told my family about this, and yet I'll go and visit my daughter for a week, and she's like, mom, you just are grouchy and angry all the time."

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Psychological Insights into Ponzi

The episode explores the psychology behind Ponzi’s actions, featuring insights from Eugene Soltis of Harvard Business School:

Eugene Soltis [20:42]: "I want to know his endgame. Because with most frauds, you can at least imagine a plausible story where things get better."

Ponzi's inability to envision a sustainable business model is contrasted with his charismatic persona, illustrating the complex motivations behind his fraud:

Scott Janeco [21:15]: "I see psychologists here once a week and probably will for the rest of my life. I mean, I can't believe that I did this."

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Legal Proceedings and Conviction

Despite Ponzi’s initial refusal to accept a plea deal, his legal battles culminate in his conviction. The reenactment captures the courtroom drama:

Charles Ponzi [27:02]: "Yes, I'd like to change my plea. Guilty. I'd like to plead guilty."

Rose’s attempt to persuade him underscores the personal loss and the erosion of his character:

Rose Ponzi [25:33]: "And eventually, it will seem like nothing. In a few decades, this will just feel like a brief interruption."

Ponzi is sentenced to five years, but subsequent state charges extend his incarceration until 1934.

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Ponzi’s Later Life and Deportation

Upon his release, Ponzi hopes for a resurgence of his relationship with Rose, but circumstances take a grim turn. Maya Lau narrates Ponzi’s deportation:

William McMasters [29:46]: "Charles Ponzi suffered from a sickness. The mere handling of enormous sums of money had the same effect on Ponzi as though he used drugs or took liquor to excess."

Despite Rose’s steadfast support, Ponzi is deported to Brazil in 1935, ending his tumultuous journey in America. Their correspondence dwindles, and Ponzi's health declines, leading to his death in 1949 with minimal assets remaining.

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Legacy of Ponzi Schemes and Conclusion

The episode concludes by reflecting on the enduring legacy of Charles Ponzi and his schemes. Maya Lau emphasizes the persistent allure and danger of Ponzi schemes in modern finance:

Rose Ponzi [38:27]: "If you don't trust anybody, you're never going to get pulled into a Ponzi scheme... We assume trustworthiness until proven otherwise."

Experts like Eugene Soltis highlight the psychological similarities between historical and contemporary fraudsters:

Eugene Soltis [39:17]: "Even though this was a long time ago, those personalities, both the investors and how people get duped... are the same people today."

The episode poignantly closes with reflections on Ponzi’s desire for legacy juxtaposed with his ultimate obscurity:

Charles Ponzi [42:40]: "After I die, I don't care what people think or say about me... So I've thrown everything away. Everything except my postage stamps."

Maya Lau encapsulates Ponzi’s complex character and the timeless relevance of his story:

Maya Lau [37:00]: "Ponzi's legacy, when viewed from a distance, seems to be one of greed, of crime, of selfishness and pain and damage... He was fallible, human."

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Key Takeaways

• Human Complexity: Charles Ponzi was not merely a fraudster but a complex individual driven by personal insecurities and a desire for acceptance.

• Enduring Impact: The financial devastation wrought by Ponzi schemes extends far beyond immediate victims, affecting families, associates, and entire communities.

• Psychological Insights: Understanding the mindset of fraudsters is crucial in preventing future scams, as these individuals often present charismatic and trustworthy personas.

• Legacy of Distrust: Ponzi’s actions have led to an ongoing tension between trust and skepticism in financial dealings, highlighting the delicate balance required to foster both confidence and vigilance.

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Notable Quotes

• Charles Ponzi [31:46]: "Thus passes worldly glory."

• Rose Ponzi [38:27]: "We assume trustworthiness until proven otherwise."

• Eugene Soltis [39:17]: "Even though this was a long time ago, those personalities... are the same people today."

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Easy Money: The Charles Ponzi Story continues to explore the intricate layers of one of history’s most notorious figures, offering listeners a blend of historical research, personal narratives, and psychological insights to understand the enduring allure and danger of Ponzi schemes.

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Transcript

[Maya Lau]

The thing about telling a story from a hundred years ago is that you're always looking for ways to feel closer to it. I've read countless newspaper stories, pored over court documents, scrutinized photos, trying to pick up every little detail I could about Ponzi. And so to conjure up that sense of connection, I keep coming back to that morning I spent with Rose's relatives, Scott and Betty Janeco.

[Scott Janeco]

The Geneco family, if you will, would gather for cookouts. And I certainly have memories of Rose being there. She used to hand out $5 bills. I talked to my sister recently. She goes, no, they were $20 bills.

[Maya Lau]

Oh, wow. To all the kids.

[Scott Janeco]

As kids, we were all excited.

[Maya Lau]

Nothing else made me feel as close to history as hearing their stories about Rose. Like how she felt about living in the mansion in Lexington.

[Scott Janeco]

She did not like the fact that she lived in the big house and there would be a maid or servants or whatever around. She hated that. And she liked to keep her own.

[Maya Lau]

Home, which tracks with everything I've read about her. Plus, of course, there were those letters Scott brought out the letters that Ponzi sent to Rose.

[Scott Janeco]

You're my dear Rose. He's wishing her a happy birthday in June of 1941.

[Maya Lau]

And there's one particular letter I've come back to the most, one that really reminds me why, years after everything happened, despite all that Ponzi had put Rose through, they were still writing lovingly to one another. Can I ask you to read one word?

[Scott Janeco]

Let's see. Okay. May I send you a belated kiss for your 48th anniversary just passed and remind you that the last 4th of February marked another anniversary which misfortune prevented us from celebrating as we should have.

[Charles Ponzi]

Perhaps I made a mess of your life, but it was not for the lack of the necessary sentiment. It is more probable that loving you to excess was what made me blind to everything else. I miss you terribly. Here I am, past 61, thousands of miles away from you, physically separated from you these past nine years, legally a stranger to you, and yet feeling toward you the same I did that night in June and the first movies we saw together in Somerville Avenue.

[Maya Lau]

Somerville Avenue, the site of their date in the summer of 1917. Ponzi had been introduced to Rose by his landlady, and he was so nervous that day, he was unable to speak. A rarity for him. But less than a week later, he mustered the courage to invite Rose to the movies, a date he remembered in that letter. And if Rose thought she'd accepted a date with A shy man. She would quickly realize how wrong she was.

[Rose Ponzi]

Oh, that was wonderful. What did you think?

[Charles Ponzi]

I think I'm gonna marry you.

[Rose Ponzi]

Uh huh. And how about that last scene? Oh, that yearning look on her face.

[Charles Ponzi]

Did you hear me, Rose? I want you to marry me.

[Rose Ponzi]

You know, I think you could learn a thing or two about romance from that story.

[Charles Ponzi]

I'm being serious.

[Rose Ponzi]

I can tell you move from I think I'm going to marry you to proposing in the space of three seconds.

[Charles Ponzi]

I don't want to be any further away from you than I was in that theater. Rose, I've never been more sure of anything in my life.

[Rose Ponzi]

You know, it's one thing to start courting me without my father's permission, but this is another thing entirely.

[Charles Ponzi]

Well, then where is he?

[Rose Ponzi]

My father?

[Charles Ponzi]

Yeah, Right now.

[Rose Ponzi]

At his fruit stand, I assume.

[Charles Ponzi]

Well, let's go.

[Rose Ponzi]

Stop. Stop. Cool it already.

[Charles Ponzi]

You don't think I could win him over?

[Rose Ponzi]

You haven't even won me over yet. Do you make all your decisions as quickly, Mr. Ponzi?

[Charles Ponzi]

Oh, I can't help it. I'm impatient. I wish I'd met you years ago.

[Maya Lau]

Eight months after that fateful date, Ponce and Rose were finally married. But neither of them could have possibly imagined then that the same bold confidence on display that afternoon at the movies, when he really did propose on a whim, would also lead to the conversation they'd be having in their house just over two years later, with Ponzi facing imminent arrest.

[Charles Ponzi]

Dross, listen to me. I.

[Rose Ponzi]

What is it?

[Charles Ponzi]

We need to talk.

[Rose Ponzi]

Not now. We'll talk in the morning. I'm sure you have plenty to say.

[Maya Lau]

This is easy money. The Charles Ponzi Story An Apple original podcast Produced by Will Media. This show incorporates real interviews and historical research alongside dramatic reenactments and actors voices.

[Rose Ponzi]

Charlie. Charles, just say whatever it is.

[Charles Ponzi]

I know, Rose. I will. I.

[Maya Lau]

Many Ponzi schemers try to buy themselves more time. Ponzi did it not only at the office, but at home, too. The day before, he'd banished all copies of any newspapers from his home as a last ditch effort to put off this very conversation. But now it was finally time for him to face up to the person whose opinion he valued most.

[Rose Ponzi]

Stop tapping your foot and breathe.

[Charles Ponzi]

Right. Sorry. I'm just not really sure where to start.

[Rose Ponzi]

Would it help get things moving if I showed you today's paper?

[Charles Ponzi]

No, it's not about that.

[Rose Ponzi]

Right.

[Maya Lau]

The headline in that day's paper. Thursday, August 12, 1920 Arrest in Ponzi case May be made Today, it's not about this.

[Rose Ponzi]

Interesting. Because this headline seems like something we should discuss. But. You want to talk about what, exactly?

[Charles Ponzi]

I mean, it's sort about that, but also sort about. Well, Kulo, in a way.

[Rose Ponzi]

Well, this just went from interesting to concerning.

[Charles Ponzi]

I'm not quite the man you think I am, Ross.

[Rose Ponzi]

Not if you want to talk about Kasulo at a time like this.

[Charles Ponzi]

It's just about how he and I know each other. I. I have a confession to make.

[Rose Ponzi]

Yes?

[Charles Ponzi]

Because I was in prison in Montreal. I know him from prison.

[Rose Ponzi]

Go on.

[Charles Ponzi]

And I never told you about it because I didn't want you to think less of me. You're just too perfect to go with a jailbird. And I didn't want to lose you, so I decided I just keep it a secret forever. Which was working out just fine. Only now the Post has dug it up and half of Boston knows, so I guess you should, too. Rose, just please say something. I just told you I'd been in prison. Give me some sort of reaction.

[Rose Ponzi]

I know all this, Charlie.

[Charles Ponzi]

What? What does that mean?

[Rose Ponzi]

I know all about Montreal, about prison.

[Charles Ponzi]

You know about when?

[Rose Ponzi]

How your mother told me. Before we were married. Mentioned it offhand in a letter. I imagine she figured you'd told me, given that it's a fairly significant event in one's life that one might want to disclose. Which you should have done. Just to be clear.

[Charles Ponzi]

You knew this whole time? Why didn't you say anything?

[Rose Ponzi]

Because you didn't say anything. Clearly, you were embarrassed. Plus, I didn't care about your past. I didn't care about what you'd done or who you'd been or who you might be in the future. I just liked the person you were then. When I met you, I wanted to be around that person my whole life. You could have been a bricklayer for all I cared. It wouldn't have mattered.

[Charles Ponzi]

I'm hearing a lot of past tense. Meaning what? You don't like the person I am now.

[Rose Ponzi]

Well, I've hardly seen you for the past six months, and my understanding of your limits has certainly changed. But you're still that scrappy, charming man who proposed to me on our first date. The man I fell in love with.

[Charles Ponzi]

That feels incredible to hear. You have no idea.

[Rose Ponzi]

I'm glad. But I still don't know why you ever doubted it. We had everything we needed all along. We still have, in fact. Unless, of course.

[Charles Ponzi]

Right. The headline.

[Rose Ponzi]

Apparently, you're being arrested.

[Charles Ponzi]

I'm going to the district attorney's office at noon to sort it all out.

[Rose Ponzi]

How much trouble are you in, Charlie?

[Charles Ponzi]

I'm in a tight spot, Rose. I won't lie. But these accusations the Post is making, I wouldn't do that. I wouldn't steal. Everything was going just fine until they started their campaign against me. I mean, any company would have been knocked on its ass after an all out assault like that. But I'm hanging on for now. And I'm doing my best, so. So I suppose we'll find out at noon what my best is worth, how much trouble I'm in.

[Rose Ponzi]

Well, then I suppose you better start getting dressed. And since there's quite a crowd waiting for you outside, I'll pick out your tie.

[Maya Lau]

I've always been fascinated by this moment in the story. Ponzi, surely, knowing he's about to be arrested, decides to sit Rose down for a long overdue confession. But not about how his business was a scam. And even the thing he did confess was still kind of a lie. It was the same version of his arrest and imprisonment that he'd written in his memoir, which we debunked earlier. You know, the one where he was set up by an old schoolmate. And I find that really sad. Ponzi was still, and had been for years, living a lie. But if Rose had any inkling, it didn't change how she felt about him. In fact, if anything, this confession, the feeling that the gap between them was finally shrinking, only strengthened her support of him.

[Charles Ponzi]

Mr. Pozzi, print whatever you want. I'm not gonna flee. I'm gonna stay right here and face the music, whatever the tune. That's all for now. No questions for Rose. She's off limits.

[Rose Ponzi]

No, wait. I have something to say.

[Maya Lau]

This was a big deal. Rose did not like the press. She despised all the commotion, and she'd sworn off being seen with him in public. But just when her husband most needed someone to defend him, she decided to finally step into the fray.

[Rose Ponzi]

I know that not everybody has the faith in my husband that I have. That's because you don't know him as well as I do. To meet my husband is to like him. But to know him well is to love him. He's a man who will face the danger of having his skin grafted onto a woman he didn't know because she needed it. He is a man who wants the best for this city and its people. And he is a bigger and more honorable man today than he ever was.

[Scott Janeco]

Rose.

[Rose Ponzi]

He is my ideal and I love him. And if there's any good to come from the awfulness of today, it's that I finally get to announce that clearly to the rest of the world. And I know that in time, you'll all come to see him the same way that I do, if given the chance. Thank you. You're full of surprises. Just go get this message sorted and then take up bricklaying. I'm not kidding.

[Maya Lau]

But unfortunately for Ponzi, there were no such pleasant surprises to be found in the city. Though he still had his supporters, they were much more muted, while his doubters and more panicked investors were much louder. Mr. Ponzi, up here.

[Rose Ponzi]

There he is.

[Charles Ponzi]

Stay back. Back. Bit louder than the last time I was here.

[Attorney General]

Well, we're dealing with a lot of scared people wondering where their money is.

[Charles Ponzi]

Just tell them it's in my bank.

[Attorney General]

Which was shut down yesterday.

[Charles Ponzi]

Which is why they should be storming the Banking Commissioner's office, not yours.

[Attorney General]

I'm sure his lobby is overrun, too. In fact, I suspect every government building in the city is inundated right now. Quite the feat.

[Charles Ponzi]

All credit to the Boston Post, who drummed up this panic. Shall we head inside before one of us gets dealt a shoe to the face?

[Maya Lau]

According to that day's evening papers, the Attorney General's office was, quote, almost overwhelmed by people who were terrified their money was gone. But it was the headlines from earlier that day, as well as those pictures of Ponzi's mugshot from Montreal, that helped set off this panic. And then there was the audit.

[Attorney General]

Here's where things stand, Mr. Ponzi. Your outstanding liabilities, as determined by the auditor, are roughly $7 million.

[Charles Ponzi]

I don't owe even half that. Where these numbers come from.

[Attorney General]

Those are the auditor's findings. Do we have a problem, sir?

[Charles Ponzi]

You don't need a report to see what's going on here. I stayed in Boston despite having an Italian passport that would have allowed me to flee and escape punishment. I continued showing up at the office almost every day throughout that time. I asked you to put this auditor on my books, and I've paid millions of dollars to investors over these past two weeks, all without taking a single cent. Happily, voluntarily. Does that sound like a criminal to you?

[Attorney General]

It doesn't sound like a criminal, no. But perhaps you're just an especially terrible one. I take it your silence on the matter at hand is an admission that you don't have the necessary assets to cover those liabilities.

[Charles Ponzi]

Not on the basis of these absurd audit results, which.

[Attorney General]

Which you'd agree to accept, did you not?

[Charles Ponzi]

Because I assume the auditor's figures wouldn't be more than a quarter of a million. Out of the way. Christ on a cracker.

[Attorney General]

I have the agreement in writing. If you want to put up a fight, then I can have it before a judge within the hour. And we can handle things that way, or you'll be able to contest the findings in court.

[Charles Ponzi]

But until then.

[Attorney General]

Until then, under these circumstances, I must do my duty. Have the marshal here place you under arrest. I'm sorry it had to turn out like this.

[Charles Ponzi]

Okay, then, Marshal, it seems, under the circumstances, that I'm your prisoner. For now.

[Maya Lau]

The Attorney General's job didn't end with Ponzi's arrest. In the aftermath of that, plus the closure of the Hanover Trust, law enforcement went after dozens of Ponzi's associates, including Joseph Daniels, the furniture makers, though he'd only recently sued Ponzi, claiming to be a 50% owner in the company. Now, sensing trouble, Daniels had a sudden change of heart. Me?

[Scott Janeco]

No, no, no, no, no.

[Maya Lau]

I'm not a business partner. Look, I'm just a guy who sold.

[Eugene Soltis]

Him furniture on credit and thought I.

[Maya Lau]

Was maybe owed a little bit more, okay?

[Scott Janeco]

This has nothing.

[Eugene Soltis]

Nothing to do with me.

[Maya Lau]

The courts agreed, and Daniels was ultimately absolved of responsibility, although he did have to pay back the $50,000 settlement Ponzi gave him. In fact, many of Ponzi's sales agents were chased down and forced to relinquish most of their earnings. But Lucy Melley had it worst of all. Though her official title was Secretary, Ponzi himself acknowledged that she was effectively the company's general manager, which explains why she was even brought up on larceny charges. And it was only after investigators discovered that she and her parents had also lost tens of thousands of dollars to Ponzi that she was relieved of susp. And, of course, the damage extended much wider than his employees and business associates. At the time of the collapse, roughly 10,000 people still had money invested with Ponzi. It took investigators eight years to finalize the bankruptcy, and in the end, they managed to locate about $1.5 million worth of assets. Roughly $20 million today, including the house Ponzi had bought for Cosolo. His victims received their fifth and final payout on 12-20-19. A Christmas bonus, as the press called, was for just $8 each. Hardly enough, after all that time, to undo the damage that had been done. The kind of damage that's always done in schemes like these.

[Barbara]

I have lost many nights of sleep. There's no doubt it's affected my personality.

[Maya Lau]

That's Barbara A retired school teacher and the victim of a recent Ponzi scheme.

[Barbara]

I have not told my family about this, and yet I'll go and visit my daughter for a week, and she's like, mom, you just are grouchy and angry all the time. And I so want to say I'm not me, because something really bad happened, and I haven't told you about it.

[Maya Lau]

How do you feel about the fact that you're. You're talking to a podcast about it where she might hear this? I would love that.

[Barbara]

I feel like it might let me off the hook. You know, how do you look someone in the eye and say, yeah, you know, that inheritance? I made a really big mistake, and I lost it all.

[Maya Lau]

Barbara said she invested around $175,000 with a man who'd gone to school with her husband and who was a pillar of their small community in the Northeast.

[Barbara]

He was charming, although a little on the cocky side. He never tried to lure me. I mean, I was such a sucker. He really never had to convince me in any way at all to invest with him.

[Maya Lau]

The collapse of this alleged Ponzi scheme, which totaled around $100 million, was so recent that criminal investigations by both the state's Attorney general and the SEC are still ongoing. As such, we aren't going to name the accused perpetrator, but we wanted to talk to someone like Barbara, for whom this experience is still fresh, who's still in the midst of processing what happened and still trying to pick up the pieces of her Life.

[Barbara]

On the 3,500 that I invested for my granddaughter, I got $139 back. And on the investment that I had, I got paid over $8,000.

[Maya Lau]

So total principal, you invested around $175,000, and you've gotten back 8,000 ish.

[Barbara]

Yes. I think the biggest thing that he took from me is that sense of security. I felt financially secure. I felt okay. And now, you know, I'm growing my vegetables in the backyard, and, you know, the display screen on my dash in my car is broken, and I won't get it fixed. I mean, I hate thinking about every purchase I make.

[Maya Lau]

That is the situation. Ponzi left countless Bostonians in the very people he wanted to help. I'm sure if I could talk to them, they would all have similar stories to Barbara. If you could ask him one question and get him to actually answer honestly, what would that question be?

[Barbara]

What was your end game?

[Maya Lau]

That, it turns out, is a common question. Here's Eugene Soltis of Harvard Business School, who we've heard from before.

[Eugene Soltis]

I mean, if I had one question to ask Charles Ponzi, if he was, you know, across the table, I want to know his endgame. Because with most frauds, you can at least imagine a plausible story where things get better, you have an amazing year, and you're able to cover up those losses. There's some plausible way with a Ponzi scheme, by kind of its definition, there is no way to get out of it.

[Scott Janeco]

And what I can extricate myself after a very short period of time, it was a nightmare. Imagine not being able to tell anybody.

[Maya Lau]

That's the voice of famous Ponzi schemer Bernie Madoff. And it seems like even if you could ask him what his end game was, you wouldn't get a satisfying answer. Which goes back to what we've heard a number of times, that being a Ponzi schemer requires some amount of self delusion. But is there a limit to that delusion? Do they ever feel remorse?

[Scott Janeco]

How could you do this? Why did you do this? I still can't figure it out. I mean, look, I see psychologists here once a week and probably will for the rest of my life. I mean, I can't believe that I did this. Something in me just allowed myself to do it. And I never understand it.

[Maya Lau]

Apparently not.

[Eugene Soltis]

Madoff would admit the literal facts, but even being confronted with people that had significant losses, and I think this is what's so interesting about the Ponzi mentality. You don't actually see the victims. You don't actually identify them. They're so distant that it's oddly actually easy for people that are always really quite brilliant on paper to create these really extraordinarily devastating crimes. So I talked to the people engaged in the five largest Ponzi schemes, and how they would describe it is, you're right. Like, ultimately, there isn't a business in the end, but it's the CEOs of the major banks during the financial crisis that took the entire economy, that was trillions of dollars to the brink, that are the real villains.

[Maya Lau]

There's always someone doing something worse.

[Eugene Soltis]

There's always someone else. And then it allows you to deflect and defuse what you're doing.

[Maya Lau]

We reached out to dozens of convicted Ponzi schemers who are now free, and almost none of them would talk to us. One of them, through his lawyer, even claimed that he'd been set up by the government. But there was one schemer we did interview, Daniel Perilli, who served nearly six years for stealing $3.6 million. An amount much smaller than the average Ponzi scheme, yet seemingly still with too much damage for him to properly process.

[Scott Janeco]

It wasn't started as a Ponzi scheme. It was started as a legitimate business. We thought so. I'm sure it hurt a lot of people. But to this day, I still never thought that. And I tell people, no, there was no intention did what happened at the end.

[Maya Lau]

Yeah, you're right.

[Scott Janeco]

But no, I don't feel bad. I never did. I never did.

[Maya Lau]

This is what's so maddeningly consistent about Ponzi schemers. They're incapable of being reflective or introspective enough to process what they've done. I mean, really acknowledging their own agency, their own decisions, and the consequences that stemmed from that. And of course, Ponzi was the blueprint for this style of behavior and delusional logic. Once he found himself facing charges, the Attorney General told him that it was incredibly unlikely that the state would pursue him if he was charged federally. And as for the federal charges, the government was offering a very good plead guilty to just one of 86 charges in exchange for a maximum of five years in prison. Not a bad outcome for someone who stole the equivalent of random roughly a quarter billion dollars today. But Ponzi didn't want to make a deal.

[Charles Ponzi]

No, I am innocent and I intend to prove it in the court of law.

[Maya Lau]

Despite masterminding the definitional scam now known as a Ponzi scheme, and despite risking substantially more time in prison, Ponzi thought he stood a chance in court. Perhaps his self delusion hadn't yet been punctured. Or perhaps he just couldn't be bear to face the damage he'd caused his beloved Boston. I don't know exactly what he was thinking, because his memoir actually ends at the moment of his surrender to authorities. It was, after all, called The Rise of Mr. Ponzi. The sequel. The Fall of Mr. Ponzi was promised in his letters to Rose, but he never wrote it. So we've used other sources to piece together what came after this. Like how Ponzi's lawyer, having failed to persuade him to accept the plea deal, enlisted the help of someone he hoped could change his mind.

[Charles Ponzi]

Rose, what are you doing here?

[Rose Ponzi]

I'm here to talk some sense into you.

[Charles Ponzi]

I don't want you to see me like this.

[Rose Ponzi]

And yet you're refusing to take this plea deal, which means you might rot in prison for decades. What then? Do I not get to see you until you're old and free?

[Charles Ponzi]

You want me to admit I'm guilty. And what, Go willingly to prison?

[Rose Ponzi]

Willingly does not mean happily to sully.

[Charles Ponzi]

Our future children's name.

[Rose Ponzi]

There won't be any children if you're locked up until I'm 60. The only thing that matters is that I think you're innocent.

[Charles Ponzi]

Think?

[Rose Ponzi]

No, that I know you're innocent. And this plea deal at least guarantees that you'll be out in time for us to have a full life together.

[Maya Lau]

It's five years, five maximum.

[Rose Ponzi]

And eventually, it will seem like nothing. In a few decades, this will just feel like a brief interruption. It'll be like the past nine months happened to someone else. I know you're impatient, but. But isn't our future the most important thing? Isn't that worth sacrificing a little bit of ego for?

[Charles Ponzi]

I won't do it, Rose. I can't.

[Maya Lau]

Having failed to convince him otherwise, Ponzi's wife and his lawyers accompanied him to court to watch him make a huge mistake.

[Eugene Soltis]

Mr. Ponzi, you've been charged with 86 counts of mail fraud, and you've submitted a plea of not guilty. Would you like to change that plea now.

[Maya Lau]

Mr. Ponzi?

[Charles Ponzi]

Your Honor, I.

[Maya Lau]

But I can imagine Ponzi looking around that room, maybe catching Rosa's eye, and in that moment, making a decision.

[Charles Ponzi]

Yes, I'd like to change my plea. Guilty. I'd like to plead guilty.

[Maya Lau]

Order. Order.

[Eugene Soltis]

Order in the court.

[Maya Lau]

And in doing so, he gave Rose something to hold on to. The prospect of a future together. In the end, the judge sentenced Ponzi to the maximum allowed under the plea deal. A full five years. Rose fainted at the news, but. But Ponzi remained stoic as he was led out of the courtroom, handing a note to one of the reporters standing by.

[Charles Ponzi]

Sic transit gloria mundi. Thus passes worldly glory.

[Maya Lau]

At least he hadn't lost his theatrical flair. Five years wasn't so bad. Rose would be 30 when he was released in 1925. But unfortunately for Ponzi, despite being told it was unlikely he'd be charged with the same crimes at both state and federal levels. Massachusetts. They were willing to make an exception for our friend Charles. And so, while still serving his federal sentence, Ponzi was charged by the state and eventually sentenced to an additional nine years, meaning that he now wouldn't be free until 1934. But even so, Rose stood by him, visiting him regularly for almost a decade and a half. Ponzi's release, when it finally came, wasn't covered that much. It was in the middle of The Great Depression, after all. But Rose, who greeted him eagerly when he got out, did give a short interview to the press.

[Rose Ponzi]

I wouldn't return to that Lexington house or any other grand house for anything. Charlie doesn't want any more of it either. We only want to do our daily task and live in a cozy little place where we can pay our bills and do as we used to. What was good enough for us in the beginning will be good enough for us in the end.

[Maya Lau]

So, according to Rose, Ponzi finally agreed with her that a normal, modest life together was enough, that all they needed was each other. Better late than never, one could say. But unfortunately for the reunited couple, in this instance, it was a bit too late, because Ponzi had never gotten around to applying for citizenship, which meant that immediately after his release from prison in 1934, he was given a deportation order. Ponzi tried everything he could to stave it off. He even approached the Boston Post to see if they might again use their clout, this time to help him rather than attack him. They refused. But there was one former adversary who stepped up to assist him at his deportation hearing, perhaps the most unexpected of them all.

[William McMasters]

Good morning, Governor. My name is William McMasters, and I have spent the past decade and a half pondering no question as much as this one. Why did Ponzi do what he did? And I can come up with only one answer, one that no medical doctor will agree with, but which seems to be the only one that satisfies the demands of logic. That Charles Ponzi suffered from a sickness. That the mere handling of enormous sums of money had the same effect on Ponzi as though he used drugs or took liquor to excess. It took possession of his faculties and dominated his every act. I am confident that he was merely acting the same way any of us might in similar circumstances if we were to encounter such riches so suddenly. His inherent character is no more questionable than anyone else's in this room, and I see no reason not to allow him to remain in this country.

[Maya Lau]

We don't know exactly what McMaster said in that room, but those words, drawn from his memoir, seem to line up with the brief description given by newspaper accounts of the hearing. The McMasters attributed Ponzi's behavior to, quote, a mental twist regarding finance. But even the man partly responsible for Ponzi's downfall wasn't able to alter his fate. And In February of 1935, just eight months after being released from his final stint in prison, Ponzi was deported. Even after everything that happened, Ponzi left America's shores, proclaiming his love for his adopted home.

[Charles Ponzi]

I can't bear any grudge against the this country since it placed in my path the most exquisite flower of all, my Rose. Her love outweighs everything I've suffered, justly or unjustly, during my time here.

[Maya Lau]

A deal?

[Charles Ponzi]

For now. America. I guess the roads are paved with gold after all, huh?

[Rose Ponzi]

You just couldn't see it until it was too late.

[Charles Ponzi]

It's never too late. We'll figure it out, okay?

[Rose Ponzi]

I love you, Charles Ponce.

[Charles Ponzi]

I love you, too. I'll see you soon. We had it pretty good there for a while, didn't we?

[Maya Lau]

Poncey remained optimistic even in the final lines of his memoir.

[Charles Ponzi]

I was licked for the time being. But life, hope and courage are a combination which knows no defeat. Temporary setbacks, perhaps, but utter and permanent defeat. Never.

[Maya Lau]

Which is a pretty concise encapsulation of Ponzi as a whole. Bold and confident in the face of hardship and terrible odds, Ponzi wrote those words quickly, and he had a draft of his memoir ready within months of his deportation. Many of his early letters to Rose express his excitement about the book's prospect as a bestseller and how this might help his chances at clemency, while also reassuring Rose that he'd been faithful to her.

[Charles Ponzi]

It's been quarezima with me for the past nine months, if you know what I mean.

[Maya Lau]

Quaresima being Italian for Lent. But despite Ponzi's commitment and his unwavering optimism, Rose became despondent about the situation. It was clear to her at least, that Ponzi would not be allowed back into the States anytime soon, if ever, which led her to file for divorce. She didn't intend to remarry. This was a legal maneuver, presumably so she could drop the now tainted name Ponzi. But the decision upset Ponzi nonetheless, and their correspondence dropped off for several years. With little interest in his memoir, Ponzi abandoned it and moved to Brazil to take up a job with an Italian airline. There, he eventually began writing to Rose again, and happily, he found her affection was very much still intact. They quickly began planning to meet up.

[Charles Ponzi]

I could tell you that I both crave and dread to see you. The crave needs no explanations. You understand it. But the dread is perhaps more difficult. Could I bear to be separated from you again once you were at my side for an hour? Hardly. Could I conscientiously ask you to remain in face with me, my uncertain future? Hardly. Then what's the answer? I don't know. Only time might solve the problem. Or death, my death.

[Maya Lau]

They continued discussing the idea of an international reunion on and off for years. At one point, Rose even applied for a job at a bank in Rio. But it never came to pass. After suffering a heart attack, Ponzi's health began to decline. He realized that he had been right in his earlier letter, that time and death would soon put an end to the uncertainty clouding their future together. In one of his final notes to Rose, he acknowledged, we will never be.

[Charles Ponzi]

United here, there or elsewhere. We will never see each other again.

[Maya Lau]

And just a few Months later, in January 1949, Charles Ponzi died in a charity hospital in Brazil at the age of 67 of a blood clot in the brain. He had just $75 to his name. Which brings me back to Scott Janeko, Rose's family member. The person who handed me these letters and who expressed at the start of the show what I know I'm certainly feeling now.

[Scott Janeco]

It's hard to feel bad for a guy like this, but in a way, I do. I think probably this is what happens to anybody that gets mixed up in this type of situation. Things start to unravel and you get in so deep. He didn't want just money. He wanted notoriety, you know, and. And I think when you get to a certain point, you don't want to lose your standing in the community. Like, everybody thinks I'm great and I'm a wizard and I'm this and I'm that. But he had to know in the back of his mind, maybe they just.

[Maya Lau]

Ponzi's legacy, when viewed from a distance, seems to be one of greed, of crime, of selfishness and pain and damage. But having spent all this time telling his story, trying to understand this man and why he did what he did, you start to see those other things. Desperation, insecurity, a relentless drive to please, to give people what they want. He wasn't a sociopath or an evil genius. He was fallible, human. It was about more than just money, as Scott said. It was about something deeper, something that in part probably goes back to his childhood. If only he could have just moved past that, he could have been happy, truly happy with Rose.

[Scott Janeco]

I think if he. If he didn't let his ego get in the way and he just, you know, did things the right way, My guess is they would have been happily married and had children and all of those things. It's pretty. It's pretty sad, really, is the feeling I got.

[Maya Lau]

It is sad for Rose as Much as Ponzi, because although she outlived him by almost half a century and did eventually remarry, it was too late by then to have children, meaning she never had the family she so desperately wanted.

[Scott Janeco]

You're absolutely right. Which. She wanted to be a homemaker and have children. And all of this very early in their marriage, the whole scheme was coming about. The next thing you know, he's, so where do you have time to have children?

[Maya Lau]

Yeah, yeah, I think she would have.

[Scott Janeco]

Loved to have children, but I guess.

[Rose Ponzi]

It wasn't meant to be.

[Maya Lau]

I guess.

[Rose Ponzi]

I don't know.

[Maya Lau]

And of course, beyond its central couple, this story is a tragedy for all the victims as well. All of them believed in Ponzi because they wanted him to be legitimate. They wanted him to make their lives better. So they were willing to overlook red flags, which is the case with basically every Ponzi scheme. Agencies and regulators at all levels of government have, of course, tried to put a stop to Ponzi schemes, but there's simply no solution that works. They're just too simple, too varied, too hard to detect in advance and too enticing.

[Rose Ponzi]

The way to eliminate Ponzi schemes is clinical paranoia.

[Maya Lau]

That's financial journalist and historian Diana Enriquez.

[Rose Ponzi]

If you don't trust anybody, you're never going to get pulled into a Ponzi scheme. But if you don't trust anybody, modern finance, modern commerce, you know, modern life is impossible. I don't want to live in a world where every person I meet, I have to be mistrustful. I have to test their credibility, their honesty at every stage. So we don't. We assume trustworthiness until proven otherwise. And that makes us sitting ducks for people who just deliberately earn our trust in order to rip us off, in order to betray us.

[Eugene Soltis]

Even though this was a long time ago, those personalities, both the investors and how people get duped, and then the individuals that perpetrate those schemes, those are the same people today.

[Maya Lau]

Eugene Soltis.

[Eugene Soltis]

Again, they might not wear suits, they might wear hoodies in some instances and be out in California, but the personalities and psychology look eerily similar.

[Maya Lau]

In other words, Ponzi's schemes will always be with us, which means Charles Ponzi will, in a way, always be with us. And the Charles Ponzi that set to work on his memoir shortly after being deported would be glad to know that, because at that point, Ponzi was certainly keen to be remembered. But shortly before the end of his life, Ponzi's thoughts turned to his legacy, and he had A different feeling.

[Charles Ponzi]

After I die, I don't care what people think or say about me. I've changed my point of view so much that I've destroyed all the papers I've carried around with me for the last 25 years. I don't care to leave a memory. I don't care to justify my past. People have almost all forgotten me. If they haven't yet, they soon will. So I've thrown everything away. Everything except my postage stamps.

[Maya Lau]

So the son of a postman who'd carted his stamp collection around the world and who made his fortune on stamps, or the idea of them, was left in the end with only stamps for company. And honestly, there's a universe where the story of Charles Ponzi does end. There, with no children or siblings, there are no direct descendants. To keep his story alive, we even used a genealogist specializing in Italian heritage to track down any living relatives. And the closest we got was Imelda's niece's grandson, who lives in Chile. And even he didn't know anything more about Ponzi than what was available on the Internet. Clearly, those letters to Rose really are the closest connection we have to him. And who knows what her family would have done with that box of letters after she died. If the writer had just been some ex husband from decades earlier, they'd never met, never heard of, the letters, too, probably would have been discarded, lost to time. I imagine, if not for one of those quirks of history, that beginning as far as we can tell from our research in Boston in the late 1920s, people slowly started using a new phrase, Ponzi scheme, to describe this type of crime. One that stretches back centuries, but was undergoing a makeover in the wake of everything that happened in Boston. In fact, by the time Ponzi died, the phrase Ponzi scheme had already made its first appearance in an SEC report making its uptake into our language official. But tucked away down in Brazil, where Ponzi mused about being forgotten, he apparently missed those developments and it seems died unaware that half the world away, the wizard of finance was already on his way to immortality.

[Eugene Soltis]

What Ponzi did was pretty ambitious, which is maybe why he gets it named after him. You know, even 100 years later, to his credit, he's got, like, a much greater lasting effect than the vast majority of people. Maybe not in the way that he ever destined, but.

[Maya Lau]

No, but he was actually proud of what he did.

[Eugene Soltis]

I mean, his book seems to make that case, so.

[Maya Lau]

So I think he's happy with it.

[Rose Ponzi]

Maybe.

[Eugene Soltis]

Maybe he got exactly what he wanted in the end. Yeah.

[Maya Lau]

The New Jersey real estate investment company now facing charges in a Ponzi scheme. The metro Atlanta man is accused of running a $300 million Ponzi scheme to.

[Scott Janeco]

Fund his lavish lifestyle. A 7 billion dollar Ponzi scheme run by Texas billionaires.

[Maya Lau]

He was the central figure in what.

[Rose Ponzi]

Authorities call one of the biggest Ponzi.

[Maya Lau]

Schemes in Florida Florida history.

[Eugene Soltis]

Luring 700 victims into a complex multi.

[Charles Ponzi]

Million dollar Ponzi scheme.

[Maya Lau]

He told senior employees yesterday that his business was a giant Ponzi scheme. Speaking of forgotten this song Ponzi the Swindler was recorded in 1926 by then famous vaudeville singer songwriter Arthur Fields. It turned up in our research and what really jumped out to me was.

[Scott Janeco]

This line now something for nothing has always achieved the heart of a great many men. Show them a chance in a brand new Fields and they'll gamble a dollar for 10.

[Maya Lau]

In other words, we all crave easy money. Just like Ponzi wrote in his memoir decades ago. And like is still true. Easy money. The Charles Ponzi Story is an Apple Original podcast produced by Atwill Media, reported and hosted by me, Maya Lau. Our producers are Matt Hickey and Brigand Snow. Production support from Ann Margaret Warner, Lee Mingistu and Taylor Hosking. The show is written by Matt Hickey and Kevin Hines with additional writing from Maya Lau and Brigand Snow. Our audio editor is Andrew Holzberger with support from Greg Devins II and Zach Graphone. Field recordings by George Hicks. Original music is by John Neches. Post Audio production by Sound Fission. Sound Fission's executive producer is Brian Master. Sound design and premix by Chuck Fay. Sound mixing by Devin Greenwood. Scripted scenes directed by Katie Finneran. Casting for scripted scenes by Darrell Eisenberg CSA Fact checking by Sona Avakian. Ashley Taylor is our senior supervising producer. Executive producers are Will Malnati and Sebastian Maniscalco. Our co executive producer is Kevin Hines. Eugene Soltis is our consulting producer. The part of Charles Ponzi is played by by Sebastian Maniscalco. Rose Ponzi by Candice shedd Thompson William McMasters by Darren Goldstein Lou Casullo by John Littlefield, Henry Schmielinsky by Richard Fisk and Lucy Meli by Stephanie Hong. Additional parts played by Andrew Holtzberger, Ashley Taylor, Brennan Lowery, Brigand Snow, Danielle Tarmi, Gianni Demaia, Iris Anthony, Jeff Taylor, Joe Hubbard, Jordan d', Amario, Manu Pasqualini, Marika Aubrey, Martin Cohen, Nathan Vincenti, Paul Kevins, PJ Serino, Raymond Neil Hernandez, Sequoia, Thomas, Chave Brown, Tyler Haynes, Will Malnati, Watt White Wyatt, Daniel Logan and Zach Cropone. Legal services provided by Sean Gordon with Weintraub Tobin and Ken Carolyn Levin at mksr with thanks to AJ Leon and Alessandra Webb. The Gineco Family Filippo Mazzotti, Frank Santoro, Gabrielle Jacek, Lorenzo Landini, Paola Rebolzi, Rosie Guerin and Sari Soffer. Follow and listen on Apple Podcasts.

[Scott Janeco]

SA.