The Paper Turns | 6

Summary

Easy Money: The Charles Ponzi Story
Episode: The Paper Turns | 6
Release Date: July 14, 2025

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Introduction

In the sixth installment of "Easy Money: The Charles Ponzi Story," host Maya Lau delves deeper into the unraveling of Charles Ponzi's infamous scheme. This episode, titled "The Paper Turns," focuses on the pivotal role of the Boston Post newspaper in exposing Ponzi's operations, the strategic maneuvers of Ponzi’s publicist William McMasters, and the mounting pressure that ultimately led to the collapse of Ponzi's empire. Featuring a blend of dramatic reenactments and expert insights, the episode paints a vivid picture of the intricate dance between media, law enforcement, and Ponzi himself.

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The Boston Post’s Exposé (00:02 - 03:02)

The episode opens with Maya Lau setting the scene of July 24, 1920, when the Boston Post heralded Ponzi's financial success with a glowing headline. However, within two days, the newspaper dramatically shifted its stance, casting doubt on Ponzi's motives.

• Charles Ponzi (00:19): "Can you believe this?"
• William McMasters (00:21): "The Boston Post questions the motives behind Ponzi's scheme."
• Charles Ponzi (00:25): "They built me up just to tear me down. It's scandalous. Unethical."

Maya narrates how the Post's initial supportive coverage turned sour after a thorough investigation by a renowned financial journalist. McMasters highlights Ponzi’s flawed business model, emphasizing the unsustainability of his promise to double investors' money through postage stamp arbitrage.

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McMasters’ Strategy and the Audit Plan (03:02 - 09:08)

William McMasters, Ponzi's publicist, devises a plan to mitigate the Post's negative coverage. His strategy involves submitting Ponzi's company for an audit, a move intended to demonstrate transparency and confidence in Ponzi's operations.

• William McMasters (01:11): "Actually, I think I have just the thing. How about we submit your company for an award?"
• Charles Ponzi (02:01): "So I should just sweep my own legs out from under me? That's your response?"

McMasters persuades Ponzi to embrace the audit, arguing that it would either validate Ponzi’s legitimacy or swiftly dismantle his fraudulent operations. Maya references McMasters' memoir, revealing that this plan was more about ensnaring Ponzi than genuinely assessing his finances.

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Ponzi’s Desperate Measures (09:08 - 16:23)

As the audit commences, Ponzi attempts to bolster his scheme by launching a new shipping company, hoping to mask the impending scrutiny. His confidence stems from his flawed yet cunning belief that the audit would be prolonged, allowing his operations to continue unchecked.

• Charles Ponzi (09:17): "I love it."
• Charles Ponzi (10:41): "It was gonna take that poor auditor months to go through them all..."

However, the episode swiftly shifts focus to the growing unrest among Ponzi’s investors. On July 27, 1920, frustration turns to chaos as customers demand their money, leading to violence and significant withdrawals that begin to erode Ponzi's financial foundation.

• Maya Lau (12:22): "The line outside his office the next morning... grew and grew."
• Charles Ponzi (12:38): "We got to get in there."

Despite the substantial withdrawals, Ponzi's business remains superficially intact, thanks to the massive inflow of funds prior to the audit. Yet, the episode underscores the fragile nature of Ponzi’s scheme as public confidence starts to waver.

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Media Pressure and Internal Conflict (16:23 - 25:07)

The Boston Post intensifies its campaign against Ponzi, publishing harsh headlines and editorials that question the sustainability and ethics of his scheme.

• William McMasters (16:25): "Tue, July 27, 1920. This is the day that angry mob had smashed their way into his office."

Diana Enriquez, a financial journalist, provides expert commentary on the challenges reporters face in proving fraudulent schemes like Ponzi’s, emphasizing the difficulty in establishing concrete evidence without insider information.

• Diana Enriquez (19:05): "Ponzi schemes are an insidious crime. To try to detect it in advance is almost impossible."

As Ponzi grapples with the dual threats of media scrutiny and investor panic, internal tensions rise. McMasters remains loyal, but his faith in Ponzi begins to falter as the audit reveals the unsustainable nature of the scheme.

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The Turning Point: Confrontation and Collapse (25:07 - 36:22)

The narrative reaches a climax when McMasters confronts Richard Grozier, the acting publisher of the Boston Post, in an attempt to collaborate on an exposé that would definitively expose Ponzi's fraud.

• William McMasters (35:15): "Ponzi could open up his business again right away. And by the time the authorities finally clamp down on him, he'll have wrecked half of Boston and will probably take the banks out down with him."

Despite McMasters' efforts, Grozier remains skeptical and wary of potential legal repercussions. The confrontation epitomizes the inevitable downfall as Ponzi's lack of transparency and the Post's relentless investigation lead to the unraveling of his scheme.

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Ponzi’s Personal Revelations (37:02 - 30:45)

In a pivotal moment of vulnerability, Ponzi shares his past experiences, revealing his altruistic side. He recounts a harrowing incident where he donated extensive portions of his skin to save a fellow nurse, showcasing a side of him that contrasts sharply with his fraudulent activities.

• Charles Ponzi (26:03): "I did not do it so I could go around talking about it... Rose is the only other person in the city who knows."
• Maya Lau (30:45): "Would it be enough to give Ponzi a much needed edge in the battle for public affection and government sympathy? It might have, except for the one man within his ranks who remained unconvinced..."

This revelation adds complexity to Ponzi’s character, illustrating the dichotomy between his public deceit and private generosity. Experts like Eugene Soltis and Diana Enriquez discuss the moral ambiguity of such figures, arguing that individuals can perpetrate large-scale fraud while still possessing redeeming qualities.

• Eugene Soltis (31:05): "You can be a great dad, a great husband... and still cause a lot of harm in a corporate setting."

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Conclusion

"The Paper Turns" masterfully interweaves historical facts with dramatic storytelling, highlighting the intricate interplay between media pressure, internal sabotage, and Ponzi’s own hubris. The episode underscores the inherent difficulties in exposing Ponzi schemes, where the absence of concrete evidence makes media and law enforcement reliance on circumstantial clues and insider betrayals critical. As Ponzi's world tumbles, listeners are left contemplating the fragile veneer of legitimacy that can so quickly give way to chaos when built upon deceit.

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Notable Quotes with Attribution and Timestamps

• Charles Ponzi (00:25): "They built me up just to tear me down. It's scandalous. Unethical."
• William McMasters (01:11): "Actually, I think I have just the thing. How about we submit your company for an award?"
• Charles Ponzi (10:41): "It was gonna take that poor auditor months to go through them all..."
• Diana Enriquez (19:05): "Ponzi schemes are an insidious crime. To try to detect it in advance is almost impossible."
• William McMasters (35:15): "Ponzi could open up his business again right away. And by the time the authorities finally clamp down on him, he'll have wrecked half of Boston and will probably take the banks out down with him."
• Eugene Soltis (31:05): "You can be a great dad, a great husband... and still cause a lot of harm in a corporate setting."
• Charles Ponzi (26:03): "I did not do it so I could go around talking about it... Rose is the only other person in the city who knows."

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Key Takeaways

• Media Influence: The Boston Post's shift from supportive to critical coverage was instrumental in exposing Ponzi's scheme.
• Internal Sabotage: William McMasters' strategic decisions played a crucial role in the downfall by pushing Ponzi towards transparency that exposed the fraud.
• Public Confidence: Investor panic and mass withdrawals significantly weakened Ponzi's financial standing.
• Moral Complexity: Ponzi's personal acts of generosity contrasted sharply with his fraudulent business, highlighting the complexity of human character.
• Challenges in Fraud Detection: The episode emphasizes the difficulties journalists and authorities face in uncovering and proving Ponzi schemes without undeniable evidence.

"Easy Money: The Charles Ponzi Story" continues to provide a compelling exploration of one of history's most notorious financial scams, blending historical accuracy with engaging storytelling to illuminate the rise and fall of Charles Ponzi.

Transcript

[Maya Lau]

Boston's biggest newspaper, the Post, had run a glowing headline about Ponzi Doubles money within three months, has thousands of investors. That was on the morning of Saturday, July 24, 1920. But by Monday the 26th, the Post had changed its tune.

[Charles Ponzi]

Can you believe this?

[William McMasters]

The Boston Post questions the motives behind Ponzi's scheme.

[Charles Ponzi]

They built me up just to tear me down. It's scandalous. Unethical.

[Maya Lau]

While some reporters were out at Ponzi's estate the previous afternoon, taking photos and asking softball questions behind closed doors, the Post was typesetting the findings of a damning analysis they'd commissioned from a renowned financial journalist.

[William McMasters]

If a man were to go down to the Boston post office to invest millions in postage stamps, he would very soon exhaust the supply.

[Charles Ponzi]

Of course, if just any man were to show up to just any post office. But I have a system.

[William McMasters]

He says. Some countries have stopped selling coupons entirely.

[Charles Ponzi]

Give me that. We need to do something big. Something bold. Something to drown us all out.

[William McMasters]

Actually, I think I have just the thing. How about we submit your company for an award?

[Charles Ponzi]

I love it.

[William McMasters]

For an audit.

[Charles Ponzi]

Wait. And.

[William McMasters]

Audit. Correct.

[Charles Ponzi]

You know, William, sometimes I forget that English isn't my native tongue, so perhaps there's another meaning to that word.

[William McMasters]

Open up your books.

[Charles Ponzi]

Yes, Ned.

[William McMasters]

Let them see for themselves.

[Charles Ponzi]

And this is your big, bold, attention getting idea?

[William McMasters]

Yes. You call the District Attorney, you say, I'm Charles Ponzi and I'd like a meeting.

[Charles Ponzi]

Well, William, I. I have to say, this is impressive. You've managed to stumble on what is possibly the single worst idea imaginable.

[William McMasters]

Hey, you brought me in to handle your image, and as of this morning, you're on your heels.

[Charles Ponzi]

So I should just sweep my own legs out from under me? That's your response? God, it's a wonder Coolidge ever made it in office with your advice.

[William McMasters]

Charles, look at this story closely. You are not the target. The Post is accusing the government of. Of lax oversight.

[Charles Ponzi]

Could you get that out of my face?

[William McMasters]

No elected official on the receiving end of this treatment can resist acting. Within days, someone from the DA's office is going to show up here with a wrench to check your plumbing. And so we can either be proactive and approach them, or we can wait.

[Charles Ponzi]

Until an audit is forced on us.

[William McMasters]

And having an audit forced on you appears guilty.

[Charles Ponzi]

Volunteering for an audit appears innocent.

[William McMasters]

And as an added bonus, the Post will probably back down from their attacks while the audit is ongoing. They got what they wanted. There's little to gain by continuing their campaign in the meantime, only the risk of looking foolish if they're wrong, which they are right.

[Charles Ponzi]

Are you really asking me now?

[Maya Lau]

All of McMaster's points were pretty solid and it was a win win as far as he was concerned. Either his client was innocent and this was the greatest publicity stunt imaginable, or he'd be bringing a swift end to Ponzi's crooked empire.

[William McMasters]

So.

[Charles Ponzi]

Lucy, someone get the district attorney on the phone and tell them that Charles Ponzi would like to take a meeting.

[Maya Lau]

This is easy money. The Charles Ponzi Story, an Apple original podcast produced by At Will Media, this show incorporates real interviews and historical research alongside dramatic reenactments and actors voices.

[Anthony Simarco]

Today, many of these tour buses do a great job, but they don't touch upon things like Ponzi. And I think it's a shame. Ponzi is somebody who is one of the.

[Maya Lau]

That's Anthony Simarco. He teaches at Boston University Metropolitan College, and he knows a lot about our story. There's even a little Ponzi coincidence in his family history.

[Anthony Simarco]

I noticed that Ponzi had come on the ship Vancouver. Ironically, my paternal great grandparents actually came on the same ship in the same year and the same date. And I was astonished.

[Maya Lau]

So Anthony was acting as my very own tour guide to all things Ponzi around Boston. And there was one obvious place to start. So we're here in front of 27 School street, which is the Niles Building, where Charles Ponzi had his office for his company. Tell me about the building, what we're looking at.

[Anthony Simarco]

This would have been the epitome of the new Boston of the early 20th century. It was well designed. It had buff brick. It also had plate glass windows. And that's where Ponzi's office was located.

[Maya Lau]

You're here in the center. You're right next to City Hall. Who would run a scam right next to City Hall?

[Anthony Simarco]

This was something that added legitimacy to his business. And there's a photograph that I've seen at the Boston Public Library of close to 4,000 people lined up and down City Hall Avenue waiting to talk to Ponzi.

[Maya Lau]

How many blocks away? And the reason I'm telling you this now is because I want you to realize just how close many of the important locations in this story are.

[Anthony Simarco]

There were many articles in newspapers, especially the Boston Post, which was diagonally across the street.

[Maya Lau]

And when they began to, the Boston Post was right there. Not far from Ponzi's office, along a street known as Newspaper Row, had the.

[Anthony Simarco]

Boston Herald, the Boston Herald Traveler, the Boston Globe, the Boston Transcript.

[Maya Lau]

And just around the corner was the Hanover Trust, which was the bank that Ponzi ended up taking over.

[Anthony Simarco]

It's very similar to the Niles Building. Exactly. And of course, it was a bank, the building.

[Maya Lau]

And just around the corner from that is the office where Ponzi had agreed to meet with government officials following McMaster's unexpected pitch for an audit today.

[Anthony Simarco]

It's called the John W. McCormick Post Office and Courthouse, but it did have a federal court.

[Maya Lau]

And you have, you know, again, this idea of you can walk just a few square blocks right here and you could spend hours learning about Charles Ponzi. Do you want to. If you put these addresses into Google Maps, you'll see they're all separated by just a few hundred feet. So When Ponzi and McMasters marched over to see the district attorney at short notice, it didn't take them long to get to the front door. And if McMaster's suggestion that morning was a surprise, it became clear he still had a few more in store for Ponzi.

[Richard Grozier]

Well, this is a welcome development, Mr. Ponzi. The one problem I see in all this, though, is that if you are taking in millions of dollars per day, then it's going to be very difficult for an auditor to get an accurate assessment of your business.

[William McMasters]

Right. Perhaps we should stop taking deposits for the duration of the audit.

[Charles Ponzi]

I'm sorry, I didn't understand what. That. That would work.

[Richard Grozier]

Can we do that?

[Charles Ponzi]

Oh, not.

[William McMasters]

Yeah, no.

[Charles Ponzi]

Look, look. Although, you know, in interest of fairness, we should perhaps wait until the end of the week, give people at least one more chance to get on board.

[Richard Grozier]

Sooner would be better.

[William McMasters]

I think we can manage sooner.

[Charles Ponzi]

Can we?

[William McMasters]

Yes. I can send out a press release as soon as we're done here. It'll be in the evening edition that people have until the end of business today to invest their money. After that, we're closed until the audit is complete.

[Richard Grozier]

Wonderful. Then let's proceed.

[Charles Ponzi]

Yes, wonderful.

[Maya Lau]

At least that's how McMasters tells it. In Ponzi's memoir. He claims that this was actually all his idea. The audit, the suggestion that he stop taking in funds. And honestly, it never really felt true to me, which is why it was such a boon to discover McMaster's long lost memoir. There's so many fascinating details in there about this part of the story told from his perspective, and this moment is one of them. It wasn't until reading about McMaster's losing faith in Ponzi the afternoon before at the press conference and concocting this plan to ensnare Ponzi in an audit. And that this plot development really started to make sense to me. Which is why we decided to tell that version. Because, I mean, why would Ponziwhose mo has been to delay and deflect suddenly decide to open his books? That said, even if Ponzi didn't come up with the idea himself, he still went along with it. Which tells us that he must have had some sort of trick up his sleeve. Or at least thought he did. Some reason to be confident that despite the gaping hole at the center of his company, things would somehow be okay. And that is, in fact, exactly how he felt.

[Charles Ponzi]

I had it all figured out. What if I told you I was about to become a shipping magnet?

[Maya Lau]

Ponzi was still intent on finding a brand new idea that could make his illegitimate business legitimate. Something real he could invest the stamp money in and turn his made up profits into real ones. And he believed he'd finally found that idea.

[Charles Ponzi]

I'd seen a quarter page advertisement announcing the government sale of 1,800 naval warships. All I needed now was a deposit of 2 million and the fleet would be mine.

[Maya Lau]

Yes, that was his big new idea. That was apparently how he was going to beat this audit. By setting up a brand new shipping company before the audit was even complete. And while that may seem somewhat unrealistic, Ponzi thought it was doable, given how long he assumed the audit would take. Why was he so confident?

[Charles Ponzi]

Because of my assistant, Ms. Melly. God bless her. Not that she meant to help me, not exactly. But at just 18 years old, on her first job, she hadn't exactly implemented the most rigorous filing system.

[Maya Lau]

We put the cash in the basket and write their deposit receipt on these cards.

[Charles Ponzi]

And the cards go in a box?

[William McMasters]

Just in a box.

[Charles Ponzi]

No particular order.

[Diana Enriquez]

The fastest order.

[Charles Ponzi]

The system worked fine when we were making a few thousand bucks here and there, but it was never upgraded.

[Diana Enriquez]

And the boxes put them upstairs with the other boxes.

[Charles Ponzi]

Which meant that millions of dollars existed nowhere except on tens of thousands of note cards piled unsystematically into hundreds of boxes which were scattered across a dozen offices. It was gonna take that poor auditor months to go through them all and finish up his report for the district attorney. By which point, it would be irrelevant anyway, because the Security Exchange company will have become the Ponzi International Trading Company.

[Maya Lau]

Look, for the sake of my sanity and your interest, I'll avoid going down the rabbit hole of Ponzi's plans. For the shipping company, which involved a whole series of shell companies to juggle the debt around. It's actually kind of reminiscent of what Enron would do decades later. It was either genius or desperate. And maybe Ponzi couldn't tell the difference anymore. Either way, with all of his focus on the audit, it seemed like Ponzi had lost sight of the other big risk to his business. I'm not talking about the government or the Boston Post. I'm talking about his customers. After months of adulation, which had peaked spectacularly over the previous weekend, Ponzi was about to get his first taste of backlash. He'd taken it for granted that they would stick with him throughout all this drama, that their trust in him wouldn't be shaken. He even decided to allow people to continue withdrawing their money even while deposits were closed, a bold move he hoped would inspire confidence.

[Charles Ponzi]

Hey, what's going on?

[Diana Enriquez]

It's taking too long.

[Maya Lau]

The line outside his office the next morning, Tuesday, July 27, grew and grew. And to the people waiting in that line, it seemed like it was moving at a glacial pace. They grew concerned. Was something wrong? Was Ponzi out of cash already?

[Richard Grozier]

We gotta get in there.

[Charles Ponzi]

Come on.

[Maya Lau]

Very quickly, that concern grew into panic. Glass was smashed and people got hurt. Some were bleeding. Gabes, where's our money? Give her some money. Ponzi wasn't at the office at the time, but police eventually managed to restore peace. At the end of the day, customers spooked by everything going on had withdrawn over $100,000. A lot of money, sure, but for now, it was more of a wound to Ponzi's pride than his business. He'd made more than $6.5 million in July alone. That's more than $100 million today. So he could bear the loss for now. But if things kept up like this, then he'd soon be in real trouble. He was fighting to regain the public's trust, which is why he needed to take precautions. And that meant taking another step into deeper, murkier territory. In an effort to keep his former cellmate, Lou Casullo, away from Boston, Ponzi had been sending this troublemaker on long, unimportant errands, like driving interstate to collect illegal alcohol. But as things got more tense and it became clear to Ponzi that Casullo might be exactly who he needed to help him get out of this tight spot.

[William McMasters]

Booze straight from New York. Same bootlegger all of Wall street is using.

[Charles Ponzi]

Then I suppose they won't try to have Me arrested for this? At least a lesson for the future. Only break the same laws they do, and you'll be fine. Pass one of those over. You want a tipple?

[William McMasters]

You invite me for a drink? You must be in a bad way.

[Charles Ponzi]

Either that while you're here, I need a favor.

[William McMasters]

Of course you do.

[Charles Ponzi]

You thought you earned this on account of your sparkling personality? Here. Salute. I need you to find someone at the post office. Someone who could intercept telegrams. Money isn't an obstacle.

[William McMasters]

That's not what the papers are saying.

[Charles Ponzi]

Paper, Kasulu, come on. Just one paper saying that. And honestly, it's remarkable that you could even read at all. So don't waste it on some gossip rag. Just find someone willing. And tell them I want copies of any telegrams being sent to or from the Boston Post about me. I want my copies before the Post gets theirs.

[William McMasters]

We in trouble?

[Charles Ponzi]

We?

[William McMasters]

Yeah, you know what I mean. If this is, well, it, then I got my own arrangements to make.

[Charles Ponzi]

Everything's fine. As long as we're smart. I'm smart. I just need to be one step ahead.

[William McMasters]

You okay?

[Charles Ponzi]

Yeah. Just. Just get this done. And needless to say, don't mention this to anyone.

[Maya Lau]

With the government's audit of Ponzi's business underway, his morally torn publicity man, William McMasters, was content to keep drawing a paycheck from Ponzi, confident that the machinery was in place to rein him in if needed. And in the meantime, there was plenty of work for a publicist to do. While most of the newspapers remained favorable to Ponzi, the bad headlines in the Boston Post, which began on Monday with that financial expose, continued all week.

[Charles Ponzi]

Look.

[Maya Lau]

Tuesday, July 27, 1920. This is the day that angry mob had smashed their way into his office. The headlines were brutal and probably played some part in feeding the chaos that morning.

[Charles Ponzi]

Ponzi Close is not likely to resume. That's opinion, not fact. I saw the Post is irrepressible. I thought the audit was meant to keep them at bay.

[William McMasters]

I said it might, and it still might. It's been one day. Be patient.

[Maya Lau]

Patience had never been Ponzi's strength, and especially now that he'd stopped taking in new money. It was something he could afford only so much of. And it wasn't over yet.

[William McMasters]

I assume you've seen this.

[Maya Lau]

The next day, Wednesday, July 28, brought with it more harsh words from the Post. And with it, hundreds more investors withdrew even more money.

[Charles Ponzi]

Nothing in postal figures indicates legitimate operation. In coupons, they're just recycling the same story over and Over.

[Maya Lau]

It was clear now that far from being able to focus his energy on getting his shipping company going, Ponzi had a much more pressing battle closer to home. The Boston Post had all but declared war, and it was his image against the accusations. The next day, Thursday, July 29th. This time, the Post ran an editorial with a simple it cannot last.

[William McMasters]

If Ponzi has made the millions he claims, he has done so at the expense of European governments, who are left to foot the bill for all the coupons that need printing.

[Charles Ponzi]

He's just talking about ethics there, not the law.

[William McMasters]

It is surely only a few weeks until his golden goose is killed, although it remains a possibility that there never was any such goose.

[Charles Ponzi]

And that's all conjecture. He hasn't proved a thing.

[Maya Lau]

By the end of the week, almost $1 million, roughly 16 million today, had been withdrawn from the company, equal to roughly 10% of Ponzi's estimated total earnings since he started. But after all that, after all the withdrawals and four straight days of front page headlines, Ponzi was still standing. Not only that, as the initial shock of the negative headlines began to fade, so did the crowds lining up to take out their money. It seemed like he might be fine after all. Good news from his perspective, that is. But the editors at the Boston Post were relentless, throwing everything they had at him. Still, for all their effort, Ponzi was right. They hadn't proven anything. And since every single person who wanted to withdraw their money had been able to do so, there just wasn't much more any reporter could do.

[Diana Enriquez]

Ponzi schemes are an insidious crime. To try to detect it in advance.

[Maya Lau]

That'S financial journalist and historian Diana Enriquez, who knows this better than most.

[Diana Enriquez]

Not to toot my own horn, but I've done a lot of investigative reporting, where I did expose crimes, where I did expose things that were being done wrong. But not Ponzi schemes. I mean, other forms of fraud, yes, but not Ponzi schemes. It's almost impossible to do that, however.

[Maya Lau]

Good you are, which is something the Boston Post discovered a century ago. Even with all their reporting, all their suspicions, there just wasn't a smoking gun to bring Ponzi down. In fact, there almost never is with this type of scheme.

[Diana Enriquez]

The challenge for reporters covering a Ponzi scheme always is that it requires you to prove a negative. That's one of the hardest things that a reporter can be tasked to do. If I want to prove that you are stealing or that you are repackaging crashed cars as new cars and selling Them? How many examples of that do I have to find? More than one. Of course. I need a pattern. 2, 3, 4 examples of what you're doing. But what if I need to prove you're not buying international postal certificates? That is vanishingly hard. It is extraordinarily hard. We all would like to think that it's easy to expose people like that, but if you're honest with yourself, it's not.

[Maya Lau]

That's basically why these schemes are only discovered once they collapse. We've already mentioned Bernie Madoff, the biggest Ponzi schemer of all time. He managed to get away with running his scheme for decades. That's how hard these things are to prove. Throughout that time, there were some suspicions and rumors swirling around him, just like Ponzi. But most people didn't want to believe the rumors. And those who did believe them were powerless to do anything about it anyway. Including Diana. She was in the same position the Boston Post was. There was just no hard evidence of wrongdoing that she could point to.

[Diana Enriquez]

Obviously, there's not a reporter alive that wouldn't have liked to been able to say, I shut him down. I caught him. I'm candid. I didn't catch Bernie Madoff. You know, Bernie confessed, and I started covering his life the next day. But if you do not have someone on the inside who will tell you, the challenge of proving the negative in a Ponzi scheme is almost overwhelming.

[Maya Lau]

Overwhelming, but not impossible. Not if, as Diana said, there's an insider, a whistleblower. That's what the Boston Post needed. Someone with confidential information who is perhaps just as frustrated that Ponzi was ducking their questions.

[William McMasters]

Okay, I think it's finally time for another interview.

[Maya Lau]

Which brings us to Friday, July 30th. The fifth straight day of harsh coverage and perhaps the harshest headline yet.

[Charles Ponzi]

Coupon plan exploded. A ridiculous headline, I should sue.

[William McMasters]

The Post clearly isn't going to back down, so let's just bring them in and walk them through everything once and for all.

[Charles Ponzi]

Every other newspaper finds something decent to say about me, but you want to give in to the one that's out for blood. After your advice about the audit.

[William McMasters]

I never said the Post would definitely back down.

[Charles Ponzi]

That was the point of the whole audit exercise.

[William McMasters]

They're asking a lot of questions, and people are starting to wonder if maybe you don't have an answer. How about you at least tell me what's going on so I can help fix things?

[Charles Ponzi]

When you were working for Coolidge, did you demand to know the ins and outs of his life, of his business.

[William McMasters]

I didn't have to because he understands how this works. He knows that I can't do my job if I'm surprised. You need to tell me everything. The good and the bad. Especially the bad. I'm fighting for you, but I'm doing it with one hand tied behind my back.

[Charles Ponzi]

Well, let's hope that Freehand has one hell of a haymaker, because I won't be blackmailed. Where's my hat?

[William McMasters]

Where are you going?

[Charles Ponzi]

To hand out coffee and sandwiches to the people lined up outside. I need to put a calm face on things.

[William McMasters]

Those are the people that are here to collect their money who don't have any faith in you.

[Charles Ponzi]

Well, it feels like there's one in the room with me right now, so I might as well go get some fresh air.

[William McMasters]

If you want my faith, I need you to do one simple thing for me right now.

[Charles Ponzi]

Faith doesn't require proof.

[William McMasters]

Fine. But profits do. Which is why I'm asking you now. Show me a coupon.

[Maya Lau]

Where?

[William McMasters]

In this entire office, Charles, which traffic solely in millions and millions of coupons. Is there a single one? Because I've been here a week now.

[Charles Ponzi]

And.

[William McMasters]

My reputation is on the line here, and you aren't telling me something. Hell, you're not telling me anything. And honestly, I'm starting to think maybe it's because there's nothing to tell.

[Charles Ponzi]

See what you people are doing to me?

[William McMasters]

You're one of the richest men in the country. Would you stop acting like you're a victim here?

[Charles Ponzi]

I am a victim. The government and the press are targeting me because I'm helping people who aren't like them. Because they're worried that if everyone gets rich, then who will sweep the streets or deliver the Post or collect the garbage?

[William McMasters]

They're targeting you because they think you're a fraud.

[Charles Ponzi]

Oh, my.

[William McMasters]

They have no evidence and they have no evidence that you're not a fraud. It really shouldn't be this hard to confirm that one of the largest businesses in the state is conducting some actual, you know, business. Jesus, Charles, are you all right?

[Charles Ponzi]

I'm fine.

[William McMasters]

Look what you're doing to yourself. Are you sure that this is all worth it?

[Charles Ponzi]

I've ruined my shirt. William. Over there. I keep a spare in there. Could you.

[William McMasters]

Does this end this ulcer? I mean, how long do you think.

[Charles Ponzi]

You can go on like.

[William McMasters]

Oh, my good God.

[Charles Ponzi]

What?

[William McMasters]

What? You're back.

[Charles Ponzi]

Hand me the shirt. The shirt, please. You think you know me. Just like the people at the Post think they know me like the People at the bank and the government, you people. Convince yourself that simply existing the way you do is some service to your fellow man. That living comfortable life somehow extends the possibility to others without ever actually doing anything for anyone. Well, I'm. I'm doing something. I've done things.

[William McMasters]

Where's this coming from? What does this have to do with those scars on your back?

[Charles Ponzi]

Did I ever tell you I worked as a nurse in Alabama? Long hours for little money, of course, and in what little time I had to spare. I was working with investors on building a power plant for the region. It was going to be my big break. I thought this was, what, 1912? And after nine years of toiling away on this continent, I was finally gonna get what was owed. And then there was a fire.

[William McMasters]

But you were burned.

[Charles Ponzi]

Nah. Another nurse, a fellow immigrant from Italy. Gas stove exploded. She needed skin to survive. There were thousands of people in the town, hundreds, who had been under her care at the hospital at one time or another, and not a single one of them donated so much as an inch. I told the doctor, take it from me. And then 72 square inches were stripped from my body.

[William McMasters]

Jesus, Charles.

[Charles Ponzi]

My God.

[William McMasters]

That sounds incredibly painful.

[Charles Ponzi]

More painful than you could ever imagine. Yes, but it wasn't over. The doctor came back the next week, said she needed 50 more inches. Again, not a single other donor. Again, I said, yeah, take it. Which he did. And as my reward, I spent months in the hospital recovering, battling both infections and boredom. And the power plant was already under construction by the time I got out. Investors moved on without me. Didn't care about me, just like they didn't care about that nurse.

[William McMasters]

I had no idea, obviously.

[Charles Ponzi]

Of course not. I didn't do it so I could go around talking about it. And don't you go telling any reporters. Rose is the only other person in the city who knows. So if I see it in the Post or. Nah, not the Post, they wouldn't run this, but the Globe. If I see this in the Globe.

[William McMasters]

No, no, you have my word. But, Charles, you know, I might be.

[Charles Ponzi]

One of the richest men in the country, as you say, but the place I started from, the way I got here will never change. They'll never stop looking down on me for having to work hard to acquire what simply is given to others.

[William McMasters]

That's all very remarkable and very moving, but what I need, Charles, are answers, not stories.

[Charles Ponzi]

Well, I'm not entirely sure what you're saying there, but assuming you're still my publicity man, why don't you come out with me and hand those sandwiches out to the crowd. Spend some time with the people who once hoped I could lift them up but have been scared into abandoning their hopes and dreams. Look them in the eye as they resign themselves to the lowly lives the system wants for them.

[William McMasters]

You go ahead and Charles, you're right. This world is unfair. But have you considered that it's entirely possible to be right and also utterly, utterly wrong?

[Maya Lau]

When I first read this part in Ponzi's memoir, I thought for sure that this whole skingraft story was an exaggeration, something he'd invented to make himself seem like an absurdly good, charitable, caring person. But it turns out it was definitely real. It was even covered by several outlets in Alabama at the time, before Ponzi was anyone worth talking about. One article from the Birmingham Post Herald includes the headline, charles Ponzi, an Italian, allows 122 inches of skin to be removed. Ponzi was prompted by a desire to aid a suffering fellow creature goes on. Either one of these operations would have stamped him a hero, but the fact that he allowed a second operation while still barely recovering from the first make his actions more than heroic. So for all of Ponzi's rhetoric about wanting to help other people through his illegitimate investment scheme, he did have a track record of very real generosity toward his struggling fellow immigrants. It's really quite touching, but also confusing. Could it be that Ponzi, a man whose name would be forever linked to a pretty awful crime, was actually a decent, empathetic person?

[Eugene Soltis]

I kind of dispute the notion of, like, the bad apple or that they're even bad people.

[Maya Lau]

I asked Eugene Soltis of Harvard Business School about trying to square these two Ponzis, the one who was effectively stealing money from immigrants and the one who donated skin and went through months of painful recovery in order to help one of them.

[Eugene Soltis]

I mean, you can do awful things and cause a lot of harm in a corporate context, but you're still not like a bad person. Like, you can be a great dad, a great husband, like a great friend, and still cause a lot of harm in a corporate setting by engaging in a Ponzi scheme or a massive fraud. And so I don't think those are even conflicting with one another. And so there are many of them that are actually very generous are, I think, otherwise great people.

[Diana Enriquez]

It was the most heartbreaking Dr. Jekyll, Mr. Hyde story I've ever seen.

[Maya Lau]

That's Diana Enriquez again, recounting her thoughts about Bernie Madoff, a man who the New York Times Once described as a, quote, pillar of charity.

[Diana Enriquez]

Because there was a legitimate Bernie Madoff. He was proud of being that man. And deep in the bowels of his life, there was this Mr. Hyde, who was content to rip off widows and orphans, close friends, members of his own family. He ripped off to deceive everybody.

[Maya Lau]

Ponzi schemers like Madoff often used charity as a smokescreen, and Ponzi did his fair share of that, too. But again, the skin donation took place almost a decade before he stumbled onto his scheme. Plus, Ponzi didn't advertise it. It was only when reporters, hungry for anything to fill their column inches about him dug up this old story that it became part of the narrative. Would it be enough to give Ponzi a much needed edge in the battle for public affection and government sympathy? It might have, except for the one man within his ranks who remained unconvinced that Ponzi was legitimate and who was running out of patience with both the press and the audit.

[William McMasters]

Richard. I went by the post office. Was told I'd find you here.

[H]

William McMasters. How's your new client doing?

[William McMasters]

Still sitting on top of the world.

[Maya Lau]

It was the morning of Saturday, July 31, when William McMasters strode into Young's hotel and found Richard Grosier, acting publisher and editor in chief of the Boston post, eating breakfast. McMasters had worked at the Post under Richard's father, so these two men were familiar with one another. McMasters recounted this scene in his long lost memoir.

[H]

Look, if you're here to plead your client's case, you're wasting your time.

[William McMasters]

Just the opposite. May I? How would you like to have a story that blows him and his scheme sky high?

[H]

So you've quit?

[William McMasters]

No, not yet. Which is why I'm in a unique position to help take him down.

[H]

A nice offer, but I'm told by my reporters that our hands are tied for now. He keeps paying out any money owed, and the government keeps being satisfied.

[William McMasters]

No, that's not the point. Of course he's paid out every cent he has. Piles of money. Even more so, thanks to the story you ran last Saturday.

[H]

A story you arranged. So if you're suggesting that I'm somehow complicit in any of this, well, then that goes doubly so for you.

[William McMasters]

I agree. I am. Which is why we need to act now, before his piles of money run out and people are left high and dry.

[H]

I am acting, William. I'm pushing this as far as hard as I possibly can.

[William McMasters]

It's not enough. I know a Lot more about what's going on than your reporters. And the government, for that matter. Let me talk to one of your.

[Charles Ponzi]

Men, and I can.

[H]

You know how this business works. If you are wrong about him, if you come at him a little too hard and mess things up, well, you'll be called into court and given a slap on the wrist.

[Charles Ponzi]

A.

[H]

A fine, maybe, but that's it. If the Boston Post does that, we're gonna be on the hook for millions of dollars in damages. He could take control of the whole paper.

[William McMasters]

I'm not wrong. I'm just as sure he's crooked as I am that we're having this conversation. And if he manages to fool the auditor, which he no doubt plans to, then Ponzi could open up his business again right away. And by the time the authorities finally clamp down on him, he'll have wrecked half of Boston and will probably take the banks out down with him. It will be a complete disaster. All right, look. What if you ran it under my name?

[H]

Then were you going to volunteer to be a human shield?

[William McMasters]

Yes, if that's what it takes to convince you. It can be a guest editorial. I write it up myself. It will be my own report under my own byline. You can attribute all blame and error to me, not that there'll be any.

[H]

A guest editorial? Uh, sure. Yeah. I mean, that would help things legally, but it's not airtight.

[William McMasters]

Don't overlook the public duty of a newspaper.

[H]

Yeah, okay. Give me a draft tomorrow, and we'll see what you're sitting on. If it's gonna blow him sky high like you say, well, I'll print it Monday morning.

[William McMasters]

Better warm up those presses.

[H]

Oh, and, William, you sure you want to play the inside man here? Go up against the wizard of finance?

[William McMasters]

Yes, I am.

[Maya Lau]

Next time on Easy Money.

[William McMasters]

Extra, Extra. Ponzi hopelessly insane.

[Charles Ponzi]

I need to get out there. I'll flash the town with the biggest smile I've ever seen.

[Richard Grozier]

This says Ponzi has no money.

[Charles Ponzi]

I can't believe I let the man into our house. He looked at me and looked at the bosses, and he said, it's a fraud, and it's probably a Ponzi scheme. And I said, you don't call this guy a fraud, let alone a Ponzi.

[William McMasters]

Unless you have proof, everybody who wants.

[Charles Ponzi]

Their money will get it, no questions asked.

[William McMasters]

I was never more wrong in my entire life.

[Charles Ponzi]

We just did not understand why people were willing to be so stupid until.

[Diana Enriquez]

Things return to normal. If you want to see me, you can see me.

[Anthony Simarco]

At home.

[William McMasters]

That coward. He's fled.

[Charles Ponzi]

Rose, listen to me. We need to talk.

[Maya Lau]

Easy money. The Charles Ponzi Story is an Apple original podcast produced by At Will Media, reported and hosted by me, Maya Lau. Our producers are Matt Hickey and Brigand Snow. Production support from Ann Margaret Warner, Lee Mingistu and Taylor Hosking. The show is Rob written by Matt Hickey and Kevin Hines with additional writing from Maya Lau and Brigand Snow. Our audio editor is Andrew Holzberger with support from Greg Devins II and Zach Graphone. Field recordings by George Hicks. Original music is by John Naichez. Sound design and mix engineering by Sound and Fission. Scripted scenes directed by Cady Finneran. Casting for scripted scenes by Darrell Eisenberg. CSA fact checking by Sona Avakian. Ashley Taylor is our senior supervising producer. Executive producers are Will Malnati and Sebastian Maniscalco. Our co executive producer is Kevin Hines. The part of Charles Ponzi is played by Sebastian Maniscalco, William McMasters by Darren Goldstein, Lou Casullo by John Littlefield, Lucy Meli by Stephanie Hong and Richard Grozier by Will Malnati. Additional parts played by Iris Anthony, Jo Hubbard, Manu Pasqualini and Paul Kevins. Legal services provided by Shawn Gordon with Weintraub Tobin and Carolyn Levin at mksr. Follow and listen on Apple Podcasts.