Too Big to Fail | 3

Summary

Easy Money: The Charles Ponzi Story
Episode: Too Big to Fail | 3
Release Date: June 23, 2025
Host: Maya Lau
Featured Cast: Sebastian Maniscalco (Charles Ponzi), Candace Shedd Thompson (Rose Ponzi), John Littlefield (Lou Casullo), Stephanie Hong (Lucy Meli), and others
Producer: AT WILL MEDIA

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Overview

"Too Big to Fail | 3," the third episode of the Apple Original podcast series "Easy Money: The Charles Ponzi Story," delves into the meteoric rise and precarious foundation of Charles Ponzi's infamous investment scheme. Hosted by Maya Lau and featuring Sebastian Maniscalco as Charles Ponzi, this episode interweaves historical research, dramatic reenactments, and expert insights to paint a comprehensive picture of how Ponzi constructed his empire, the trust he leveraged within immigrant communities, and the inevitable unraveling of his grandiose scheme.

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Key Sections

1. The Allure of Easy Money
2. Building Trust Through Affinity
3. The Mechanics of Ponzi’s Scheme
4. Signs of Collapse
5. Ponzi’s Personal Struggles and Doubts
6. Meeting with Lou Casullo: The Past Resurfaces
7. The Fragility of Trust and the Inevitable Downfall
8. Insights from Experts

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1. The Allure of Easy Money

The episode opens with a compelling reenactment of Charles Ponzi himself (Maniscalco) explaining the simplicity and attractiveness of his scheme:

Charles Ponzi [00:03]: "It's a beautiful thing, human nature, especially when it works in your favor. For example, when people see easy money, they want it to be real."

Ponzi capitalized on the universal desire for quick wealth, offering returns that seemed too good to resist. As Maya Lau highlights, Ponzi's timing was impeccable, with Boston's growing Italian immigrant community providing a fertile ground for his promises.

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2. Building Trust Through Affinity

Financial journalist and historian Diana Enriquez provides context on Ponzi's rise within the Italian community:

Diana Enriquez [02:59]: "And here was this native hero who had made good in such a spectacular way. And I think there was a hunger for that kind of Horatio Alger American dream stereotype."

Ponzi's strategy hinged on affinity fraud, leveraging shared cultural and community ties to build trust. Maya Lau reinforces this point:

Maya Lau [03:45]: "Affinity fraud, when a scam occurs within a social group, like a church or an alumni network, or in Ponzi's case, an immigrant community..."

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3. The Mechanics of Ponzi’s Scheme

Ponzi's promise was straightforward yet deceptive. He claimed to use stamp coupons from postal services to generate profit, but in reality, he paid early investors with the funds of new investors. This cycle allowed his scheme to flourish rapidly:

Charles Ponzi [07:10]: "That's what matters. That's all people are looking for."

By June 1920, Ponzi had swindled the equivalent of over $2 million today, making his operation unsustainable as incoming funds couldn't keep pace with outgoing payments.

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4. Signs of Collapse

Eugene Soltis, a white-collar crime expert, explains the inherent instability in Ponzi’s model:

Eugene Soltis [09:01]: "No one could ever start out saying, I'm going to create a $20 billion Ponzi scheme. You would almost be destined to fail."

Despite initial successes, Ponzi was unaware of the inevitable collapse. Maya points out that his lack of a solid foundation made the empire volatile:

Maya Lau [06:23]: "He was nobody, for one, with no name or reputation or decent business contacts. Which only makes it all the more remarkable how quickly things got out of hand."

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5. Ponzi’s Personal Struggles and Doubts

As Ponzi's scheme grew, so did his stress and physical ailments. An inner conflict surfaces, highlighting his realization that the scheme was unsustainable:

Charles Ponzi [08:51]: "And I was going to bring a lot of people down with me, which is why I only had one option. Figure it out fast."

Parallel narratives introduce Bernie Madoff, drawing comparisons to Ponzi and emphasizing the psychological aspects of running a fraudulent operation.

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6. Meeting with Lou Casullo: The Past Resurfaces

A pivotal moment occurs when Lou Casullo, a former cellmate (played by John Littlefield), recognizes Ponzi. This encounter threatens to expose Ponzi’s hidden past:

Lou Casullo [25:29]: "This is the reception I get after all this time."

Ponzi’s desperate attempt to maintain trust unravels as Casullo challenges his legitimacy, introducing external pressure on the already unstable scheme.

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7. The Fragility of Trust and the Inevitable Downfall

Maya Lau emphasizes the central role of trust in sustaining Ponzi’s empire:

Maya Lau [17:58]: "Trust is a simple thing, but it carries incredible power. It can bring people together, build communities, and even create empires. But trust can also destroy them."

As pressure mounts from both investors and Casullo's revelations, Ponzi faces the inevitable collapse. His personal and professional life crumbles as the scheme unravels.

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8. Insights from Experts

Throughout the episode, experts like Diana Enriquez and Eugene Soltis provide critical analysis:

• Diana Enriquez [18:27]: "You can't run a Ponzi scheme if you can't command trust."
• Eugene Soltis [09:09]: "The more time I spent trying to understand these people, I realized it's really a failure of intuition."

These insights shed light on the psychological and social mechanisms that enable such schemes to thrive temporarily.

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Conclusion

"Too Big to Fail | 3" masterfully captures the intricate dynamics of Charles Ponzi's rise and fall. Through a blend of dramatic reenactments, expert commentary, and historical context, the episode illustrates how Ponzi exploited human nature's greed and the power of community trust to build his fraudulent empire. However, as pressure and internal doubts grew, the lack of a sustainable foundation led to the inevitable collapse, serving as a timeless cautionary tale about the fragility of trust and the dangers of unchecked greed.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Charles Ponzi [00:03]: "It's a beautiful thing, human nature, especially when it works in your favor..."
• Diana Enriquez [02:59]: "And here was this native hero who had made good in such a spectacular way..."
• Eugene Soltis [09:01]: "No one could ever start out saying, I'm going to create a $20 billion Ponzi scheme..."
• Maya Lau [17:58]: "Trust is a simple thing, but it carries incredible power..."
• Charles Ponzi [08:51]: "And I was going to bring a lot of people down with me..."

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Further Listening

For those intrigued by the complexities of financial fraud and the psychology behind one of history’s most notorious scams, "Easy Money: The Charles Ponzi Story" offers a gripping exploration of ambition, deception, and downfall. Follow and listen to the series on Apple Podcasts.

Transcript

[Charles Ponzi]

It's a beautiful thing, human nature, especially when it works in your favor. For example, when people see easy money, they want it to be real. They don't want to poke holes in its existence, which is why they ask only the most basic questions. How are you going to get enough stamp coupons to make back the hundreds of dollars I'm giving you? And as long as you have an answer, they're satisfied. Well, I set up a network of agents all throughout Europe with access to postal officials in a dozen countries.

[Eugene Soltis]

Why are you the one to come.

[Charles Ponzi]

Up with this scheme, huh? Why you and not all the bankers in the world? Because I'm the son of a postman. Bankers are descended from bankers or from lawyers or politicians. And those occupations have been inbreeding for so long that they can't even see good money when it's right in front of them. Sometimes the best answer is a non answer at the end of it all. How do you convert the coupons back into cash? That was a good question. But as long as you say something and do it with enough conviction, I can't risk you starting a rival business, can I? Of course not. Let me do all the legwork and, you know, you just sit back and reap the rewards. That's all that matters. That's all people are looking for. So how much can I put you down for? Let's start with 2000. Oh, I meant hundred. Is that all right? Well, the person you need to be asking is you. And the question you need to be asking is, how rich do you want to be in three months? Only the answer to that will let you know how much to invest. Because we're all gamblers. Deep down, my customers as much as myself, we all crave the easy money and plenty of it. And as these events you're witnessing demonstrate. All right, 2000 it is. It's one of the most powerful forces known to man. You won't regret it, my friend.

[Maya Lau]

This is easy money. The Charles Ponzi Story, an Apple original podcast produced by Ill Media. This show incorporates real interviews and historical research alongside dramatic reenactments and actors voices. Ponzi couldn't have timed the start of his ascent any better. Boston was waiting for someone just like him. And sometimes making history is all about being the right person in the right place at the right time.

[Diana Enriquez]

Charles Ponzi was stepping onto the stage. After a couple of decades of remarkably increased Italian immigration into the United States. A number of Italian Americans in the country had gone up like one of those hockey stick charts that had just boomed up.

[Maya Lau]

That's Diana Enriquez, financial journalist and historian, who we've heard from before.

[Diana Enriquez]

And here was this native hero who had made good in such a spectacular way. And I think there was a hunger for that kind of Horatio Alger American dream stereotype that, yes, you can come here and you can make a fortune and you can help your countrymen also share in this, in this prophecy.

[Maya Lau]

As you say, people are hungering for that narrative.

[Diana Enriquez]

Yes, and what a beautiful narrative. There was so much about him that fed that fairy tale, and I think that that just really grabbed people's attention. I think we also have to include Maya. The idea of affinity fraud.

[Maya Lau]

Affinity fraud, when a scam occurs within a social group, like a church or an alumni network, or in Ponzi's case, an immigrant community, the Italian community is where his first batch of customers came from. Nearly every Ponzi scheme operates initially or sometimes entirely on the phenomenon of affinity. That's true now, but it was perhaps even more important back then because the government wasn't going to protect you.

[Diana Enriquez]

There were no audited financial statements required by anybody. Insider trading was rampant. Lies were told routinely to sell securities a company could.

[Maya Lau]

The sec, the government regulators didn't exist at Ponzi's time. Neither did the term white collar crime, which we've mentioned before. In fact, the general concept that corporate misconduct was a crime, same as murder or armed robbery, was completely foreign and actually kind of controversial.

[Diana Enriquez]

Wall street itself, looked at from our standpoint today and the rules we live by every day, resembled a criminal enterprise. Even at the most august levels, there was a tolerance, almost a universal tolerance for these plutocratic crimes. It was a wild west hearing that.

[Maya Lau]

Makes me think that perhaps Ponzi was just a man of his time. And given that he wasn't wrong when he said that the almighty dollar was the only goal. But I'll let you draw those conclusions for yourself. For now, what I'm interested in is how he got those victims through his door. Trust was one way and plausibility was another.

[Eugene Soltis]

It's so easy now to look back and blame the victims as they seem gullible. I guess I see how I could have been gullible as well, because it actually sounds so attractive.

[Maya Lau]

That's Eugene Soltis, our white collar crime expert.

[Eugene Soltis]

The initial investors actually did get their proceeds, and I think people saw that rag to riches story that they were being left out. FOMO fear of missing out. I think if there was the classic person who engages in fraud and puffery, they understand that as Long as I deliver, no one will really ask how or ask too many questions.

[Maya Lau]

While Ponzi may have had it working to his advantage that people don't like to ask questions when things look exciting, he still had a lot working against him. I mean, he was nobody, for one, with no name or reputation or decent business contacts. Which only makes it all the more remarkable how quickly things got out of hand.

[Charles Ponzi]

You heard about this Ponzi character? It's the real deal. My cousin invested with him and says it's all legit.

[Maya Lau]

It started, of course, with the Italian community. From there, word started spreading. And once those first investors were happy, it spread even faster. I don't have money just lying around.

[Charles Ponzi]

He'll take anything. That's what I'm saying. Folks like us can get rich from practically nothing.

[Maya Lau]

In February 1920, just a couple of months after getting started, Ponzi brought in more than $5,000. Roughly $80,000 today.

[Lou Casullo]

I just gave him another 200.

[Maya Lau]

Really?

[Charles Ponzi]

Another 200? Are you talking about Ponzi?

[Eugene Soltis]

The man's a miracle worker. This dinner is practically free.

[Charles Ponzi]

Salute.

[Maya Lau]

Soon, he expanded beyond the Italians and into other immigrant and working class groups. So much so that in March, he brought in five times more than he did in February.

[Charles Ponzi]

His name's Ponzi. Charles Ponzi. Don't tell me you trust an Italian. Could be a scam. Sergei. The guy operates next to City Hall. All of his customers swear by him.

[Maya Lau]

Ponzi was on a roll. He opened offices in cities throughout Massachusetts and then in Maine, Vermont, Connecticut, and New Jersey. In April, his monthly takings shot up to $140,000. That's over $2 million today, all in less than five months of operating there. $1,519.

[Charles Ponzi]

Wonderful. And what's the name again, sir? Sergei. Thank you. No need to thank me, Sergei. Happy to share the wealth. See you in 45. Next.

[Maya Lau]

Soon, it was an empire. It was chaos.

[Charles Ponzi]

New customers on your left, returning customers on your right.

[Maya Lau]

In May alone, He brought in $400,000, which is more than 6 million today. And in June, he made. Okay, I'm sure you get it. Ponzi had a lot of money coming in. To the outside world, he seemed like a bona fide success story. His business was growing, and his office was even right next to City Hall. Just another thing that added to his legitimacy. But keep in mind, for every dollar he was taking in, Ponzi was putting himself 50 cents in debt. Which meant that if he didn't figure things out soon, he was going to Be in a lot of trouble.

[Charles Ponzi]

And I was going to bring a lot of people down with me, which is why I only had one option. Figure it out fast.

[Eugene Soltis]

No one could ever start out saying, I'm going to create a $20 billion Ponzi scheme. You would almost be destined to fail.

[Maya Lau]

Eugene Soltis.

[Eugene Soltis]

Again, the prevailing notion in a lot of popular media is that these are really calculating people that are out of greed trying to get ahead. And that's a reasonable hypothesis to have. But the more time I spent trying to understand these people, I realized it's really a failure of intuition. It's actually the people who actually built something and then slip, and then it keeps growing and growing and growing and growing.

[Charles Ponzi]

I probably didn't think long and hard.

[Maya Lau]

Enough about some of the things that I did. I was able to convince myself that.

[Charles Ponzi]

This was, you know, a temporary situation.

[Maya Lau]

That's Bernie Madoff, history's biggest Ponzi schemer, speaking from prison after his conviction. At its height, his investment fund was worth an enormous $65 billion. But here's the catch of that $65 billion, $50 billion of it was entirely made up. For decades, there was simply nothing. No trades, no money, just fictitious numbers on bits of paper. You know, in hindsight, when I look.

[Charles Ponzi]

Back, it wasn't as if I couldn't have said no. I sort of rationalized that what I was doing was okay, you know, it wasn't going to hurt anybody. It was a temporary thing.

[Maya Lau]

And these recordings were made by Eugene. He spent hours talking to Madoff, trying to understand him and why he did what he did.

[Eugene Soltis]

I mean, every Wednesday night for three and a half years, I spent time with Madoff. My office, 7pm, without fail. The only time I missed it, when I was on my honeymoon. I truly believed to the very end, till he passed away, he believed in what he was doing. He still saw what he had as a business. I always found that so fascinating. I think if you have enough people around you telling you how great of a business person you are, almost that self delusion, that self trickery is what I think allows someone to be so compelling.

[Maya Lau]

So does that mean that any one of us could commit a Ponzi scheme sort of on accident as we go along?

[Eugene Soltis]

Luckily, most of us are not getting into the position where we can cause this kind of harm. But in small, subtle ways, we all.

[Maya Lau]

Rationalize that's what Ponzi was doing. Like what Madoff did, too. Rationalized, believed he was running a legitimate business, one that just had some hurdles. He needed to overcome. And that those hurdles were a temporary problem, as Madoff put it, that no one was going to get hurt. Small self serving bendings of the truth that ripple out. And in Ponzi's case, as in Madoff's, it rippled way out. And then what do you do? Maybe it's just simpler to believe the mantra. You're telling yourself this is temporary. I'll fix it. No one will get hurt. Of course, as much as customers don't like to ask questions, and as much self delusion as there often is in these cases, there are always some people who will challenge you.

[Charles Ponzi]

Me.

[Rose Ponzi]

I need to find Mr. Ponzi.

[Diana Enriquez]

Help me find Mr. Ponzi.

[Maya Lau]

Where is he?

[Charles Ponzi]

What's going on out here? Mr. Ponzi, I'm here to follow up on a complaint from Mrs. Campbell. Here. Wow, this is the first I've heard of it. How do you do, Mrs. Campbell? My name is.

[Maya Lau]

You stole my money.

[Charles Ponzi]

Apparently, her husband invested their entire savings with you. Oh, smart man. You should thank him. My friend say it's too good to.

[Diana Enriquez]

Be true, that you're a fraud.

[Charles Ponzi]

Is that so? Then do me a favor and let's keep this between us. She says you induced her husband to hand over their money. Not to sound crude, Detective, but does it look like I need to be inducing anyone?

[Diana Enriquez]

I want my money back.

[Charles Ponzi]

That's what this is about. Fine. Though I don't see why you needed to involve our good boys in blue. Let me see it. Is that. Is that your note there? Okay. $300. Where's my assistant? Ms. Melly.

[Rose Ponzi]

Yes, boss?

[Charles Ponzi]

Oh, could you fetch Mrs. Campbell her money and show her out? Will that be all, Detective?

[Maya Lau]

You're just going to give me the money?

[Charles Ponzi]

Well, that's what you wanted, Mrs. Campbell. So if it's okay with you, I'd like to get back to my other customers. You know, the ones collecting those returns that are apparently too good to be true. You, sir. Can I see your note? $500 machine today. That's $750 coming your way. All it cost you was a little trust and patience. I have that right here. In fact. 100. 200. Wait. I've changed my mind. Oh, for Pete's sake. After all this? I appreciate that, Mrs. Campbell, but I only do business with those who doubt my sanity, not my legitimacy. You could go thank your friends for that. They're the ones who cost you the money, not me. Make sure to get yourself some lemonade on the way out.

[Maya Lau]

Come along, Mrs. Campbell.

[Charles Ponzi]

Well, wait a second. I believe You. And for you, sir, $750. All the best, Mr. Ponzi. Sorry for the inconvenience. Not at all, Detective. Just doing your job. And by the way, what you saw me do for for Mrs. Campbell, I'm always ready to do for all my other investors.

[Maya Lau]

Of course, he was praying he wouldn't have to, and praying that his word would be enough to hold everyone off. That, again, is key to sustaining a Ponzi scheme. As long as he kept calm, he figured people would just keep giving him their money. But as happy as all of Ponzi's customers were, well, most of them anyway, there was one person who was less pleased with his trajectory.

[Rose Ponzi]

Charlie, what's going on?

[Charles Ponzi]

Oh, Rose, darling. I didn't see you there. Were you here the whole time?

[Rose Ponzi]

We're going to lunch, remember? I didn't know I'd be treated to a show as well.

[Charles Ponzi]

You just come into my office. You could wait in there while I finish up. Carry on.

[Rose Ponzi]

What was all that about? She called you a fraud.

[Charles Ponzi]

Don't worry about that woman. Some people just don't believe a good thing when they see it. Fraud? You believe that? I mean, you heard the detective.

[Rose Ponzi]

This is a different office from the last time I visited.

[Charles Ponzi]

Yeah, we just got too busy. We had to move floors. I'm sure I told you about it.

[Rose Ponzi]

I don't know about all this, Charlie.

[Charles Ponzi]

The new office.

[Rose Ponzi]

Is this really how you spend your days? How you want to spend your days? I mean, the commotion, the police.

[Charles Ponzi]

Typically, the policemen that come in are customers.

[Rose Ponzi]

You know what I mean?

[Charles Ponzi]

Oh, wait, wait, wait. Hold on. I got something for you.

[Rose Ponzi]

But you already got my mother's rings back.

[Charles Ponzi]

Just open it.

[Diana Enriquez]

Oh, my.

[Charles Ponzi]

Your mother's rings only got us back to where we were before. We're beyond that now.

[Rose Ponzi]

How much did this cost?

[Charles Ponzi]

$200.

[Rose Ponzi]

Charles, come here and look me in the eyes.

[Charles Ponzi]

What's wrong? You don't like it?

[Rose Ponzi]

I want you to look me in the eyes and tell me that woman was wrong about you.

[Charles Ponzi]

Are you really asking me this, Rose? You really think I. I showed up.

[Rose Ponzi]

For lunch, and you're in a new office bursting with customers and police and accusations, and now you're pulling out expensive jewelry. It's just a lot. And I need you to tell me everything's all right.

[Charles Ponzi]

Everything's all right, Rose. Better than all right. I promise.

[Rose Ponzi]

Okay.

[Charles Ponzi]

You believe me?

[Rose Ponzi]

Of course. Besides, you can't lie to me. I know this bracelet costs a lot more than $200.

[Charles Ponzi]

All right, all right. You got me 500 Charlie. Okay, it was 1,000. See?

[Rose Ponzi]

So don't get any funny ideas.

[Charles Ponzi]

No, ma' am.

[Rose Ponzi]

Now, do me a favor and take it back.

[Charles Ponzi]

The bracelet?

[Rose Ponzi]

You don't want it until I grow a third wrist. I have more than enough bracelets to.

[Charles Ponzi]

Get me through, but this one's nicer.

[Rose Ponzi]

It's a sweet gesture, Charlie, but I don't want any of this stuff. What I want is to go to lunch with you. So can we please get back to the matter at hand?

[Charles Ponzi]

Right, yeah. Let me just get my head and. This is Ponzi. Really? Now, is this urgent? All right, I'll be there. Rose, it's okay. You understand. You see what I'm dealing with here, right?

[Rose Ponzi]

Sure. Just think about it, will you, Charles? Is this how you want to spend your life? By the way, the new office? I like it.

[Charles Ponzi]

Thank you. I see it all. Don't wait up.

[Maya Lau]

Trust is a simple thing, but it carries incredible power. It can bring people together, build communities, and even create empires. But trust can also destroy them. There's a quote on the FBI website about fraud. It says, trust is fine, but it does not replace due diligence. Because trust is at the heart of every great con and every successful scheme. As Diana Enriquez, the financial historian and journalist, told me, you can't run a.

[Diana Enriquez]

Ponzi scheme if you can't command trust.

[Maya Lau]

And in Ponzi's case, that trust initially came from his affinity with the Italian community. As we heard, he spoke their language. He shared their struggles. He was one of them. That trust fueled his scheme, kept the money flowing, and made him untouchable. But trust is fragile. So it was crucial for Ponzi that there would be nothing about him that would lead people to question their trust in him. Like, for instance, something or someone from his past.

[Rose Ponzi]

Sorry to barge in, Mr. Ponzi, but.

[Maya Lau]

There'S a man out here who?

[Lou Casullo]

Bianchi.

[Diana Enriquez]

Hey, Bianchi wants to see you.

[Lou Casullo]

The Mapley forever?

[Charles Ponzi]

Sir, please, could you keep it down? We are trying to do business here.

[Lou Casullo]

Hey, there's my old friend, Mr. Charles Bianchi. How you doing, pal?

[Charles Ponzi]

I'm sorry, but I think you are mistaken there.

[Lou Casullo]

I was reading the paper when I saw a photo, my old friend, Charlie B. Next to a story about this here thriving company. Sir, only imagine my surprise when I see the name of that old friend.

[Charles Ponzi]

Why don't you come back in my office, and I'm sure we could get to the bottom of this. What's he talking about, boss? I don't know. He's obviously Confused. Come on, everybody, get back to work. Come on, sir. We'll sort this out in private.

[Maya Lau]

Back in the early 1900s, it was relatively easy for someone to just pick up, move to a new city and start a new life, even with a different name. And this is something Charles Ponzi took advantage of. Remember how we heard about Ponzi bouncing around several cities before settling back in Boston? One of those cities was Montreal, where, for reasons that aren't entirely clear, but aren't obviously nefarious, he adopted a new family name. Time to start over, perhaps. Either way, he arrived there in 1907, which actually kicked off a relatively happy couple of years for him. A bright spot in the middle of his years of poverty and turmoil. He was active in his community and worked as a clerk at an Italian bank called Banco Zarossi. He was even dating the daughter of his boss, Franco Zarazi. But what happened next? Well, that's where things get murky. Ponzi's version of events, which he detailed at length in his memoir, paints quite a dramatic picture, beginning, apparently with the appearance of an old schoolmate of Ponzis from Italy, who struck a deal to help keep the bank afloat when it fell on hard times.

[Charles Ponzi]

For a while, everything went along fine until the same schoolmate ended up falling for Zarazi's same daughter, who was already besotted with the same me. Would you believe that? Anyway, his love never got to first base. And I suspect this disappointment drove him actually insane, since no sane person would do what he did next.

[Maya Lau]

According to Ponzi, he was just following instructions when his SchoolMate handed him $200 in cash and a train ticket out west to liquidate some of the bank's branches. And as Ponzi was packing to leave, the so called schoolmate called the police, reporting that the money had come from a forged check. And in short order, Ponzi was arrested and convicted. In other words, according to Ponzi, he was completely innocent, the victim of a cruel setup. But the historical record tells a different story. Though Ponzi wasn't actually implicated in the collapse of the bank or any associated wrongdoing, he wasn't entirely innocent. In the wake of his employer's arrest, he decided it was probably a good time to skip town. But having no money to do so, he decided to obtain some funds from a forged check. And so all that business about an old schoolmate Ponzi mentioned, probably fictional, to help with appearances. Why is this important? Aside from it being quite relevant that Boston's new Wizard of finance had done time in jail for fraud. It's because the ensuing prison stint is where Ponzi met.

[Charles Ponzi]

Hi, good sir. Uh huh. Jesus. I don't suppose I could trouble you for the bottom bunk? See, I'm quite short, and getting up to the top there is. Okay. Don't know if you actually did say that, but never mind. Won't be for long anyway. This is just a big misunderstanding, me being here. I'll be out soon.

[Lou Casullo]

Mm.

[Charles Ponzi]

Love what you done with the place, though. I'm Charles Bianchi, by the way. And you are? Well, look, if we're gonna be cellmates, we should at least be able to do some small talk. All right, well, listen, I gotta warn you, I don't do well with this. Prolonged silences. So it's as much for your benefit as mine if you just tell me. Lou Casulo. See? How hard was that? Lou. Pleasure to meet you, Lou Casullo. Did I compliment you on the decor? Already.

[Maya Lau]

There are no reports of tension from their almost two year overlap in prison. But Ponzi later described him as a.

[Charles Ponzi]

Hyena, a jackal, a clown. He would pilfer a church poor box or pick a drunk's pocket lift. Anything that wasn't nailed down, practically. And he snored.

[Maya Lau]

And while there's not a whole lot we know about Kasulo's past, it's safe to say that he's exactly the wrong type of person. You'd want to show up at your doorstep knowing the secrets of your past, just as you were trying to desperately keep your house of cards standing. Because think about all those people lining up to give Ponzi their money, taking it on faith that he was doing what he said he was doing. The only proof being that he was handing over money to any investor who asked. Would they have been so enthusiastic, Would they have asked so few questions if they'd known that Ponzi had been in prison before? And for fraud, of all things? What about Bernie Madoff? Would he have gotten away with his scheme for decades with that hanging over his head? Of course not. Which is why Ponzi's past left him vulnerable. Casullo knew that. And he wasn't afraid to exploit it for his own gain.

[Charles Ponzi]

I don't know. He's obviously confused. He's lost. Let me see what I can do. Come on, sir. We'll. We'll sort this out in private.

[Lou Casullo]

So this is the reception I get after all this time.

[Charles Ponzi]

Look, sir, I'm really quite afraid that you've mistaken Me for someone else?

[Lou Casullo]

Ah, yeah, the other five foot two Italian I bunked with for years. Come on. What are you playing at here? Well, maybe if I go out there and start telling people the story of our meeting, it might shake something loose for you.

[Charles Ponzi]

No, no, please. Oh. Lou. Is that Lou Casullo? Wow. What a pleasant surprise.

[Lou Casullo]

There he is.

[Charles Ponzi]

Forgive me, Lou. You look good. And my brain isn't what it used to be. Huh.

[Lou Casullo]

Well, by the looks of this place, your brain is working pretty fine these days, Bianchi.

[Charles Ponzi]

Well, it's actually Ponzi. I go by Ponzi now. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Lou Casullo]

I saw that in the paper. Ponzi. Not as elegant, I have to say, but, hey, everyone's entitled to a clean slate, huh? Probably should have thought of that myself.

[Charles Ponzi]

So, Lou, what brings you here?

[Lou Casullo]

Well, you, of course. I saw you were doing well, and I thought, hey, maybe I could be useful to you.

[Charles Ponzi]

Really? You're here to help?

[Lou Casullo]

Well, I just figured we could work something out. I mean, I can do a lot of things. I can talk, for instance, or I can be quiet.

[Charles Ponzi]

Yes, very versatile.

[Lou Casullo]

I gotta tell you, this hurts, Bianchi. Excuse me? I mean, Ponzi. There I go again. That could be tough, you know, getting.

[Charles Ponzi]

The name right without incentive. I'm guessing. What?

[Lou Casullo]

You offered me a job?

[Charles Ponzi]

Yeah. Suppose I could find some use for you, But I expect a certain amount of. I don't know how you say this. Cooperation from my employees, of course.

[Lou Casullo]

And as long as I'm fairly remunerated for my services, I don't think we'll have a problem cooperating. Oh, but on that subject, could I get an advance on my first week's salary.

[Charles Ponzi]

Here? But by accepting this money, you're entering into a binding gentleman's agreement. All right.

[Lou Casullo]

Ah, come on. You know me. Nothing if not agreeable.

[Charles Ponzi]

Call tomorrow. My assistant will set everything up. Now go, please. I got work to do.

[Lou Casullo]

About 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7.

[Charles Ponzi]

Can you at least wait until you're out of sight to count? Huh?

[Lou Casullo]

Oh, yeah. Sure thing, Mr. Ponzi. Would you look at that? Got it right on the first try.

[Charles Ponzi]

Astonishing. I'll print your name for centuries to come. No doubt.

[Lou Casullo]

Great running into you again, Palace. Feels like fate, doesn't it?

[Maya Lau]

Ponzi may have been keeping his cool on the outside, but the pressure was building. And inside, something was expanding. A sense of dread, and along with it, a painful ulcer, the symptoms of which get worse with stress. Something Ponzi was certainly under a lot of. Because for all the Requisite self delusion. Somewhere deep down, he knew what was going on. He knew he was in trouble. And he knew Kasulo being around only made things worse. He needed to find a way out of this hole fast.

[Charles Ponzi]

Well, I already needed to do it fast. But now it needed to be faster before that hyena had a chance to sink his teeth in.

[Maya Lau]

Next time on Easy Money.

[Charles Ponzi]

The thing about money is that once you have enough of it, come on. Getting more becomes easy. There may be a compulsion there because the experience of that dopamine high. The more I bought, the more I wanted to buy.

[Rose Ponzi]

Seven rooms, a huge one. Walk in closet.

[Charles Ponzi]

It was a mania, a frenzy. All of your needs are satisfied.

[Maya Lau]

Then what else is there?

[Charles Ponzi]

In America, nothing is more powerful than a bank.

[Eugene Soltis]

But there had have been a moment where he realized, like this can't work.

[Charles Ponzi]

Kula, what are you doing here?

[Lou Casullo]

Well, I figured maybe we could stretch our little arrangement.

[Maya Lau]

Easy Money. The Charles Ponzi Story is an Apple original podcast produced by At Will Media, reported and hosted by me, Maya Lau. Our producers are Matt Hickey and Brigand Snow. Production support from Ann Margaret Warner, Lee Mingistu and Taylor Hosking. The show is written by Matt Hickey and Kevin Hines with additional writing from Maya Lau and Briggan Snow. Our audio editor is Andrew Holzberger with support from Greg Devens II and Zach Grapone. Field recordings by George Hicks. Original music is by John Naichez. Sound design and mix engineering by Sound and Fission. Scripted scenes directed by Cady Finneran. Casting for scripted scenes by Darrell Eisenberg. CSA fact checking by Sona Avakian. Ashley Taylor is our senior supervising producer. Executive producer. Our producers are Will Malnati and Sebastian Maniscalco. Our co executive producer is Kevin Hines. The part of Charles Ponzi is played by Sebastian Maniscalco. Rose Ponzi by Candace Shedd Thompson. Lou Casullo by John Littlefield and Lucy Meli by Stephanie Hong. Additional parts played by Brennan Lowry, Gianni demaia, Iris Anthony and Marika Aubrey. Legal services provided by Sean Gordon with Weintraub Tobin and Carolyn Levin at mksr. Follow and listen on Apple podcasts.