Economic Update with Richard D. Wolff

Episode: A Story of War
Date: November 4, 2021
Host: Richard D. Wolff
Guest: Talia Lugasi

Episode Overview

This episode of Economic Update with Richard D. Wolff centers on the economic pressures and systemic injustices facing working people and small businesses in contemporary America, deepening its focus with a discussion on war, trauma, and the experience of veterans. The show opens with Wolff analyzing Amazon’s business model and the economic confrontations between the U.S. and China, segues into a critique on mainstream economics and labor strikes, and culminates in an in-depth interview with filmmaker and professor Talia Lugasi about her HBO Max film This Is Not a War Story, which explores trauma and “moral injury” among U.S. veterans.

Key Topics & Insights

1. Amazon and the Squeeze on Small Businesses

[00:10 – 04:54]

• The Hidden Exploitation:
  Wolff discusses how Amazon's reliance on over 2,500 small business contracts to deliver packages embodies a modern version of big business squeezing the little guy.

  • Example: Ted and Karen Johnson’s delivery business went under due to constant surveillance and pressure from Amazon, leading to unsustainable working conditions.
  • Quote:

    “The technology was used to work them to the bone and to keep niggly down the amount of money paid to them for the deliveries until eventually they couldn't function anymore. It's an old story of big business squeezing the little business.” (03:34)

• Call for Solidarity:
  Urges workers and small business owners to recognize their shared struggle against corporate giants.

2. U.S.–China: Military Confrontation or Economic Rivalry?

[04:55 – 09:50]

• American Military Dominance:
  Wolff contrasts U.S. global military activity with China’s restraint:

  • U.S. completed 85 overseas military operations (2018-2020); China did none.
  • U.S. maintains ~800 overseas military bases; China has one (Djibouti).
  • U.S. military spending surpasses the next 10 countries (including allies) combined.
  • Quote:

    “Who's aggressive? The United States maintains roughly, and no one knows the exact number, 800 military bases around the world... China at this point has one... Keep it in mind, please.” (06:48)

  • Draws a parallel with U.S. healthcare: high spending, poor outcomes.

• Taiwan’s History:
  Details Taiwan’s historical context to provide nuance on modern tensions:

  • Dutch, Japanese, U.S. influences; longstanding Chinese connection.
  • Insight: U.S. intervention muses echoes of prior occupations and the Chinese desire to reclaim lost territory.

3. Critique of Mainstream Economics

[09:51 – 11:47]

• Federal Reserve Paper on Inflation:
  Wolff references a provocative footnote by economist Jeremy Rudd:
  • Quote:

    “The primary role of mainstream economics in our society is to provide an apologetics for a criminally oppressive, unsustainable and unjust social order.” (11:13)

  • Celebrates critical self-reflection within the economic profession.

4. Labor Strikes and the Logic of Profit

[11:48 – 14:50]

• Rising Labor Actions:
  Recent Nabisco and Kellogg strikes as evidence of wider worker unrest.

  • Bosses threaten offshoring to Mexico to erode workers' gains.
  • Quote:

    “Profit is what drives this system. It has in the past, and that's what it's doing now, threatening workers so that you can make more profits by taking away from them the benefits you gave them…” (13:15)

• Political Continuity:
  Both Trump and Biden administrations have not disrupted these corporate strategies.

5. Interview: Talia Lugasi on 'This Is Not a War Story'

[15:32 – 28:39]

About the Film

• This Is Not a War Story aims to challenge stereotypical portrayals of veterans and trauma.
• Focuses on "moral injury"—the trauma from actions during war that violate one's own moral code, distinct from PTSD.

Key Discussion Points

• Motivation and Myth-Busting

  • Lugasi:

    “There are very sort of damaging myths that are proliferated in the mainstream media about trauma and also about veterans in the sense that we have a tendency to build up veterans as heroes, and this sort of precludes our ability to critique the war as if those things are mutually exclusive." (15:44)

  • The film incorporates real veterans and their creative expression (art, poetry, music).

• Independence from Military Oversight

  • Lugasi emphasizes making the film without Department of Defense approval or script intervention—a rarity for war films.
  • Quote:

    “Most war movies that are produced by the system have ... DoD approval ... we were avoiding all of that. We're very under the radar..." (18:35)

• War Then and Now: Vietnam through Afghanistan

  • Moral Injury is more present in wars lacking clear purpose, e.g. Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, versus World War II.
  • Quote from the film (paraphrased):

    "World War II veterans didn't come home and kill themselves in these kind of numbers. They had a clear mission. [In Iraq] he didn't know why he was fighting." (21:16)

  • Veterans involved resonated with the feeling of being “used and discarded,” “pawns in a system.” (23:22)

• Suicide and the Limits of Healing

  • Lugasi:

    "I'm a civilian...The story kind of arose from that. And I found the veteran community through that struggle. And so what I'm hoping for is that the film will speak to people who are contending with things of this sort, and they will find an honest representation..." (24:56)

  • The movie resists tidy narratives of healing ("being fixed"), advocating for honest, daily coping.

• Afghanistan Withdrawal Reflection

  • The chaotic end of the war was not surprising for Lugasi or her collaborators, but was demoralizing and “triggering."
  • Quote:

    “None of us were especially surprised by that. It was very triggering, of course, for a lot of us involved in the film. And ... hopefully the timing of this film coming out when it does can contribute ... to creating a deeper conversation around that event.” (27:16)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Economics’ Social Role:

  “The primary role of mainstream economics in our society is to provide an apologetics for a criminally oppressive, unsustainable and unjust social order.”
  (Jeremy Rudd via Wolff, 11:13)

• On the Experience of Veterans:

  “Their anti war position kind of came down ultimately to this realization that, like, they were just a very small part of a much larger system that needed them to function in a certain way and needed them to have that experience, and they needed meat for the grinder, essentially for the system to continue.”
  (Talia Lugasi, 23:44)

• On Honest Representation:

  “The idea of being fixed is also a very harmful one from a war standpoint because the more you portray veterans who are like, get over it and are fine, the more you can be OK with sending people back to war.”
  (Talia Lugasi, 26:07)

Important Timestamps

• Amazon and Small Business Exploitation: [00:10 – 04:54]
• US-China Military/Economic Tension: [04:55 – 09:50]
• Critical Footnote from Federal Reserve Paper: [09:51 – 11:47]
• Strikes and Labor Tactics: [11:48 – 14:50]
• Introduction to Talia Lugasi and Her Film: [15:32]
• Moral Injury & Veterans’ Voices: [17:04 – 22:13]
• The Legacy of Occupation Wars: [21:10 – 23:22]
• Veteran Suicide & Honest Portrayal: [24:30 – 26:22]
• Reaction to Afghanistan Withdrawal: [26:22 – 28:04]

Tone & Style

Wolff’s critiques are incisive and passionate, combining economic analysis with historical context and a clear moral perspective. The interview with Lugasi maintains an earnest, thoughtful tone, with both probing questions and heartfelt reflections on trauma, art, and the human cost of war.

Conclusion

This episode connects the dots between economic exploitation—whether of workers, small businesses, or soldiers—and the wider social and psychological damage wrought by systemic forces. Through both Wolff’s opening analysis and Lugasi’s nuanced discussion of war and veterans' trauma, listeners are urged to question dominant narratives, seek solidarity, and rethink the systems that produce both economic and human suffering.