Economic Update with Richard D. Wolff

Episode: A US Left Rises to Remake the World
Date: August 5, 2021
Guest: Astra Taylor, co-founder of Debt Collective
Host: Richard D. Wolff

Episode Overview

This episode centers on the rising left movement in the US, focusing on economic injustices in the capitalist system and the increasing activism around debt, worker solidarity, and democratic economic alternatives. Host Richard D. Wolff begins by dissecting how capitalism distributes rewards and then brings on Astra Taylor to discuss how debtors' activism offers a new frontier for economic and political transformation, connecting it to broader systemic change.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Valuing Work in Capitalism

• Telling Example: 'Friends' TV Cast Pay
  • Wolff illustrates the disparity in capitalist rewards using the salaries of "Friends" actors and comparing their payouts to everyday workers (teachers, healthcare, eldercare, service sectors).
  • Notable Statistic: By the 9th season, each "Friends" cast member earned $1 million per episode, and as much as $20 million a year from reruns due to a 2% share of gross syndication revenue.
  • The core insight: Huge income differentials are baked into capitalism, and "people are not paid what they are worth."
    Quote (06:34):

    “Under capitalism, don't ever make the mistake of thinking people are paid what they are worth.” — Richard D. Wolff

2. US-China Economic Conflict and Tariffs

• Wolff discusses US government tariffs on Chinese solar panels, claiming they have failed to return manufacturing to the US or change the global balance.
• Chinese producers adapted by seeking other global markets and reducing prices, maintaining and increasing dominance.
• Tariffs contribute to US inflation, as buyers face higher prices and pass those costs forward, contributing to rising costs for all. Quote (10:54):

  “It's a little bit self-defeating. No, let me take that back. It's very self-defeating.” — Richard D. Wolff

• He dismisses US politicians’ claim that sanctions are motivated by China’s treatment of the Uyghur minority (calling it a “tiny part” of US motives and widely disbelieved outside the US).
• Larger point: The US approach discourages trade and investment, even from other allies, and ultimately results in job and market losses domestically.

3. Mass Mobilization and Policy in France

• Wolff describes recent mass movements in France opposing President Macron's “pension reform” (raising retirement age from 62 to 64), which was ultimately withdrawn due to union and grassroots pressure: Quote (14:20):

  “The combination of unions in a mass movement defeated a presidential anti labor movement.” — Richard D. Wolff

• Contrast to US labor: Notes the absence of similarly strong coalitions in the US, suggesting a gap in mass resistance.

Interview: Astra Taylor (Debt Collective)

[Starts 15:06]

4. Debt as a Source of Collective Power

• Debt Is a Public Issue:
  Taylor frames private debts (student loans, medical, credit cards) as a direct result of public disinvestment and policy—“You are not just what you owe, but also you’re not in debt because you made poor choices. You're in debt because of poor policies.” (17:07)
• Debt Collective’s Strategy:
  By collectivizing individual debtor struggles (similar to labor unions), debtors can exert significant economic and political power.
• Highlights success: The first national student debt strike in 2015, resulting in $2 billion in debt cancellation and placing the issue on the national agenda. Quote (18:14):

  “Our obligations, though they feel very oppressive, can be turned into a source of power when we come together in solidarity.” — Astra Taylor

5. The Decline of US Capitalism—and Opportunity

• Taylor states that while US capitalism is in decline compared to its mid-20th-century heyday, it continues to evolve new profit schemes, such as widespread personal debt.
• The current era offers hope:

  “What gives me hope is that there's a rising generation of people who came up after the Cold War...they see all the ways that they're unfree in this economic and political regime. And so they're organizing to challenge it.” (20:30) — Astra Taylor

• Rejects inevitability: What matters is organizing to turn declining conditions into political opportunity.

6. Rising Generation of Socialists and Left Organizers

• Taylor supports high-profile figures like AOC and Cori Bush as “bright lights,” but insists that “We have to build democratic power from below...They can't change the system on their own.” (21:52)
• Calls for holistic organizing: labor, debtors, tenants, and political engagement.

7. Learning from Global Alternatives

• Taylor discusses inspiration from Yugoslav worker cooperatives, Kerala’s educational reforms, and Cuba’s distinct traditions—emphasizing that these are imperfect but useful reference points.
  • Key idea: Democracy should be re-centered as economic democracy, not just formal politics. Quote (24:00):

  “There are different economic paradigms. What's incumbent on us is to use our imaginations to try to envision a new paradigm moving forward...increase democratic power at every level.” — Astra Taylor

8. The Post-Cold War Lens—New Openings

• Taylor observes that the new generation is not trapped by the “capitalism = democracy” frame, and thus is freer to question economic structures and link democracy to economic equality.
  • The shift: The American dream for many is no longer owning a house, but “just getting out of debt or having $0.” Quote (27:10):

  “If we want to actually embody our purported democratic ideals, we're going to have to change our economic system. Because you cannot have democracy in a system of concentrated wealth.” — Astra Taylor

Notable Quotes & Moments

• Wolff on pay in capitalism: “Don't ever make the mistake of thinking people are paid what they are worth.” (06:34)
• Taylor on debt: “You are not in debt because you made poor choices. You're in debt because of poor policies.” (17:07)
• On socialist resurgence: “20 years ago, when I was coming of age, I certainly didn't have a figure like AOC or Cori Bush to look to in Washington.” (22:24)
• Democracy & economic power: “We need to democratize both the economy and to democratize the state and increase participation, increase democratic power at every level.” (24:35)
• On a world beyond Cold War binaries: “We're in a really critical moment because that Cold War polarity said the United States represents capitalism and democracy...now we're free to question what democracy actually really is, what it requires.” (27:00)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:10 – 06:30: Wolff on capitalist pay scales, the "Friends" example, and systemic value judgments
• 06:30 – 14:40: US-China trade, solar tariffs, global market adaptation, and inflationary consequences
• 14:40 – 15:06: Macron’s pension reform retreat; lessons in union and social movement power
• 15:06 – 18:31: Interview: Astra Taylor introduces the Debt Collective and the logic of debtor organization
• 18:31 – 19:50: Linking worker and debtor struggles; power in combining different social movements
• 19:50 – 21:34: Taylor on the decline of US capitalism and forms of resistance
• 21:34 – 22:46: Assessment of new socialist politicians and grassroots organizing
• 22:46 – 25:07: Learning from global experiments in economic democracy
• 25:07 – 28:22: Generational attitudes post-Cold War; opportunities for remaking democracy

Tone and Language

The episode maintains an urgent, hopeful, and analytical tone, reflecting both Wolff’s critical economic analysis and Taylor’s activist optimism. The language straightforwardly challenges economic orthodoxy and encourages solidarity and creativity in pursuit of change.

Summary Takeaway

This episode challenges listeners to rethink economic justice—not just as a matter of policy but as a movement that connects everyday struggles (with debt, low wages, inaccessible public goods) to larger systemic change. The rise of debtor organizing, new socialists, and global experiments with alternative economic models signals potential for transformative collective power. The pathway forward, according to both Wolff and Taylor, lies in forging solidarity across divides and reimagining democracy itself.