A Wise American Capitalist Criticizes U.S. Capitalism with Ben Cohen, co-founder/former CEO of Ben and Jerry's Ice Cream

Summary

Economic Update with Richard D. Wolff

Episode: A Wise American Capitalist Criticizes U.S. Capitalism, with Ben Cohen
Date: August 16, 2023
Guest: Ben Cohen, Co-founder and former CEO of Ben & Jerry’s Ice Cream
Host: Richard D. Wolff

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Main Theme Overview

In this episode, economist Richard D. Wolff provides a rapid-fire analysis of pressing issues—artificial intelligence, racism in academia, U.S.-China economic relations, and the legacy of Tony Bennett—before engaging in a wide-ranging interview with Ben Cohen. The conversation with Cohen revolves around the failures and future of U.S. capitalism from the vantage point of a prominent business leader committed to social justice, delving into campaign finance reform, war, Israel/Palestine, the slide toward fascism, and socially responsible entrepreneurship.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Problems of U.S. Capitalism (Ben Cohen’s Critique)

• Structural Inequality: Cohen asserts that the U.S. economy is “structured to benefit corporations and the ultra wealthy at the expense of everybody else.”

  “Congress is supposed to regulate corporations, but instead the corporations are regulating Congress through campaign contributions, lobbyists, and what have you.” — Ben Cohen (15:55)

• Government Capture: He decries the corrupting influence of money in politics, enabling corporate overreach and undermining democracy.

2. Campaign Finance Reform

• Eliminating Big Money in Politics: Cohen would eliminate campaign contributions from corporations and the ultra-rich, replacing them with citizen vouchers to level the political playing field.

  “Every citizen in the country gets a voucher for a certain amount of money, maybe $100... It restores our democracy and makes it a government of the people again.” — Ben Cohen (16:58)

3. U.S. Foreign Policy & War in Ukraine

• On U.S./NATO Role: Cohen contends that U.S. and NATO expansion provoked the Ukraine war, drawing a parallel to the Cuban Missile Crisis.

  “Doing the equivalent of placing nuclear weapons on the Canadian and Mexican borders of the United States... There were several opportunities for a negotiated settlement that the United States kind of put the kibosh on.” — Ben Cohen (18:10)

• Negotiated Settlements Preferred: He advocates for ending U.S. military support and using American power to broker peace instead.

4. Israel/Palestine & U.S. Involvement

• Support for Israel, Not Oppression: Cohen supports Israel’s right to exist but opposes its policies toward Palestinians:

  “Making an entire group of people oppressing an entire group of people for the actions of a comparatively few terrorists... You can't have security at the point of a gun.” — Ben Cohen (19:44)

5. Capitalism & Class Struggle

• Viability with Controls: Cohen defends capitalism only “with proper controls and constraints,” praising Scandinavian social democracies for balancing markets with social welfare.

  “Unfettered capitalism... creates havoc. It ends up having all the power in the hands of the ultra wealthy and corporations and everybody else just becomes pawns.” — Ben Cohen (21:47)

• Contrast with U.S. System: He sees the U.S. as a “corporate democracy,” organized for corporate profit, rather than public good.

6. Is the U.S. Sliding Toward Fascism?

• Alignment of State and Corporate Power: Cohen agrees that the “partnership of the government and the corporations is undeniable,” marking a drift toward fascism.

  “Fascism just doesn't happen overnight. It's a gradual movement. And like the proverbial frog in the pot of water that's heating up, you don't notice it until you're dead.” — Ben Cohen (23:34)

• Authoritarian Trends: He cites the growth of authoritarian tendencies, especially among “Trumpist elements.”

7. Controversies in U.S. Racial Discourse & Education

• On DeSantis’s Slave Skills Comment: Cohen calls the idea that slaves “gained skills” an “absurd” and dangerous justification for abuse.

  “If someone were to put me in chains and whip me and require me to learn how to sew, I might learn how to sew. But is that what we're advocating? Is that what we're saying is a good thing? It’s absurd.” — Ben Cohen (25:52)

8. Ethical Entrepreneurship: Cannabis and Criminal Justice

• Ben’s Best Blends: Cohen explains his new cannabis business, which sells low-THC marijuana with the dual aim of offering a “get there slower” experience and funding reform efforts for harms caused by the war on drugs.

  “It's a much more enjoyable ride...” and “the whole purpose of this business is to help right the wrongs of the war on drugs... 100% of its profits go [to reform].” — Ben Cohen (27:13)

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Memorable Quotes & Moments with Timestamps

• On Corporate Influence:

  “Corporations are regulating Congress through campaign contributions, lobbyists and what have you.” — Ben Cohen (15:55)

• On Democracy Reform:

  “Candidates no longer play to corporations and the ultra wealthy, and it restores our democracy and makes it a government of the people again.” — Ben Cohen (16:58)

• On Ukraine:

  “United States and NATO actually provoked that war...” — Ben Cohen (18:10)

• On Israel/Palestine:

  “You can't have security at the point of a gun... I don't think you can have security by oppressing an entire group of people.” — Ben Cohen (19:44)

• On American Capitalism:

  “Unfettered capitalism... everyone else just becomes pawns.” — Ben Cohen (21:47)

• On Slide Toward Fascism:

  “Fascism just doesn’t happen overnight. It’s a gradual movement. And like the proverbial frog in the pot of water that's heating up, you don't notice it until you’re dead.” — Ben Cohen (23:34)

• On DeSantis’s Slavery Comment:

  “If someone were to put me in chains and whip me... I might learn how to sew. But is that what we're advocating? Is that what we're saying is a good thing? It's absurd.” — Ben Cohen (25:52)

• On Social Entrepreneurship:

  “So our motto is get there slower... The whole purpose of this business is to help right the wrongs of the war on drugs.” — Ben Cohen (27:13)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Introduction & Recap of Current Issues: 00:10–15:38
• Interview Begins (Ben Cohen Introduction): 15:39
• Cohen’s Critique of U.S. Economy: 15:55–16:44
• Campaign Finance Reform: 16:44–17:40
• Ukraine War: 18:10–19:28
• Israel/Palestine: 19:44–20:54
• Capitalism & Class Struggle: 21:47–22:58
• America’s Slide Toward Fascism: 23:34–24:58
• Controversy Over Slavery Curriculum: 25:52–26:26
• Ethical Cannabis Business: 27:13–28:45

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Tone and Language

The conversation is frank, critical, and nuanced—with Cohen’s perspective blending directness with a progressive optimism rooted in real-world business experience. Wolff’s questioning is incisive yet affable, setting up Cohen to unpack complex intersections between capitalism, democracy, justice, and activism.

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Summary Takeaway

This episode stands out for its unsparing critique of American capitalism from inside the business world. Ben Cohen articulates a path forward grounded in democracy, transparency, social responsibility, and a rejection of both unfettered markets and creeping authoritarianism. His journey—from ice cream to cannabis, from profit to purposeful giving—exemplifies the possibility for business to be a vehicle for real change, if it can transcend the system’s structural barriers. A must-listen for those interested in the intersection of economics, politics, and ethics.

Transcript

[A]

Welcome, friends, to another edition of Economic Update, a weekly program devoted to the economic dimensions of our lives and those of our children. I'm your host, Richard Wolff. Today's program is going to cover a number of interesting things. One more discussion brief on artificial intelligence, a discussion of racism in American universities, more on the tensions and the economics of US China and the relationship. Then a short word on a very important singer who died recently, Tony Bennett. The second half of today's program will be an interview with Ben Cohen, the co founder and former CEO of Ben and Jerry's Ice Cream, with a set of his views of America that I think you'll find especially interesting. Let me begin, as I have in recent programs, telling you all that there's a person working with us to whom you can deliver information, clippings, items you think would be worth us covering on this program. Please send any of those suggestions to the Charlie C-H-A-R-L I E.info 438mail.com charlie.info 438mail.com we are very grateful for those of you that have begun to respond to this and we've got a number of really excellent leads. So thank you. Those who've done that know who you are. I want to repeat something about artificial intelligence. I am really unnerved, to be honest, about all of the stories I read, which are endless speculations about how many millions of people are going to lose their jobs because of artificial intelligence, as if a technological breakthrough is necessarily a danger to working people. That was never true and it is not true now. The problem has never been with technology. All kinds of breakthroughs have been made, from every kind of machine to every kind of robot or software or electricity or atomic energy. The question was always what will be the labor saving effect? The machines that we have developed are substitutes for for human labor. The people who invented and brought those machines to us have often promised and they meant it sincerely, that these would be labor saving drudgery, would be replaced by a machine. Human beings would be liberated by the technology. The hard ugly reality is that these promises were never delivered on. People are working harder and longer today they than they ever had. It is outrageous what has happened. And here's the basic technology is brought into the workplace by employers, 2 to 3% of our people, not by workers. The workers may invent the new machinery, they may figure out better ways of producing, but they don't have the power to install them. The employer has that. And when employers bring in new technology, artificial intelligence, these Days they do it in order to make more money. So let me tell you this story one more time. Imagine a thriving business. It's got 100 workers an employer. A typical capitalist business. The employer buys equipment, inputs, hires the workers. They do the work, they produce an output. The employer sells the output, replaces the used up tools and equipment, pays the workers the promised wages, makes a nice profit for himself. Let's assume it's a hundred workers. Now along comes a new technology, artificial intelligence. What can happen? Well, let's assume that this new development, this new technology makes every worker twice as productive as they were before. Here's what could happen but rarely does. The employer says I've got a good business, I'm making a good profit. I'm going to buy this machine. When I although older machines wear out, I'm going to replace them with the new AI equipment and I'm going to say to my workers, you're now twice as productive as before. Everybody works half a day, not a whole day. I don't need you for a whole day because in half a day you can make just as many outputs as you used to take a whole day to do. I will sell them. I will continue paying you what I was paying you before. I'll make a nice profit as I was before. Everything is the same except you get half a day off every day. But employers don't want to do that because they have a better choice. They fire half the workers now. They produce the same output as before, they sell it. But they don't just make the good profit they were making before, they now make more profit. Why? Because they don't have to pay wages to half of the workers they fired. They keep that for themselves. More profit for them, unemployment for half the labor force. Capitalists use technology for their benefit and thereby they deprive the working class of the benefit that technology could deliver to them. Except for the interference of profit driven capitalism. The problem is not the technology, the problem is the system that uses it in this unjust and fundamentally anti mass people way. Then there's a quick story. It's the story of Texas A and M University. The President there just resigned. Katherine Banks by name. Why? Because she had hired Kathleen McElroy, New York Times editor, 20 years experience and so she was hired as obviously qualified to rebuild the journalism program at Texas A and M. But suddenly the university withdrew its offer of a tenured position. Offered a five year position instead and then a one year position. Ms. McElroy declined. Ms. McElroy is black. And yep, all Kinds of alumni and university officials didn't want her to be hired, had nothing to do with her qualifications. It was an interference because the Texas governor is leading the charge to prevent people being hired to offset many years of discrimination against black and brown and other non white people. This is not acceptable to people who should be labeled for for what they are based on what they did. Racist. 100% racist. Now the problem again, as I go back and have to explain it again, US China relationships. The policy of the United States towards China is schizo. It's schizophrenic. It's split between two opposing forces. Right wingers in the United States, military people they want to beat up on China, send the fleet over there, threaten them, wage trade wars, wage tariff wars, beat them down, hold them back. But the problem is there's a whole other policy coming from the U.S. chamber of Commerce here. The U.S. chamber of Commerce in China. Why? Because huge American businesses have sunk hundreds of billions of dollars. Investment in China. Trade between the United States and China. Much of it those American companies in China shipping back what they produced there because they can make much more money by doing that to their customers here. Trade between the United States and China. In the last year, more than it's ever been. You hear a lot of negative noise about China. But the reality is for America, we need them. And many big corporations are explaining. If you political people break relations with China, force us out of China, provoke the Chinese into taking over our businesses, we will be hurt. We will be less competitive because the biggest growing market in the world is China. All of our competitors around the world will be able to trade in China. We won't. That'll hurt us. Don't do that. Here are the names of the three corporations with the biggest plans for growing in China. McDonald's, you know, the hamburger folks, Ralph Lauren, a major clothing producer and Starbucks. These companies are already active and becoming more so because it's profitable. It's only because Chinese inexpensive goods have come to the United States in record amounts in recent years that we haven't had a much greater inflation. Chinese goods come here because they're lower priced. It's an offset to the inflation. You stop that, you interfere with that, prices are going to go through the roof. China lends money, it's the second largest creditor. And after Japan of the United States. If they don't lend to the United States government, the only way the United States government could make up for it is by raising interest rates, which is going to hurt this economy too. Interest Rates go up, your car payments go up, your mortgage goes up, et cetera, et cetera. The relationship between the United States and China is a complicated, intertwined capitalist system. It is the growth of capitalism that brought Western companies into China, and we are now stuck with that. You can't cut China off. If you move production out of China to India or out of China to Southeast Asia, which a few companies have done, they still don't bring those jobs back to the United States because the wages there are much less. And the inputs to a factory that moved from China to Indonesia, they still come from China. You're not going to cut off supply lines from China. It's too late. That could have been done 30 years ago, but it can't be done now. Which means inside the United States, whether you hear it publicly or not, there are the right wingers, the militarists. They want to hold on to the American empire, a losing proposition if ever there was one, by smashing down on China. But then there's the whole big business community that can't afford that and is explaining that the whole American welfare system, and I don't mean welfare handouts, I mean wages we have and jobs we have, depend on the relationship with China. And there's no other country coming close to what China now is in terms of its interdependence with the United States. If China decided to sell the treasury bonds it has from having lent for decades to the American government, the interest rates in this country would go through the roof. We can't. We can't. And that struggle between the right wingers on a patriotic, smash China trip and the business, big business community that knows how devastated it would be, that's what's being fought out. That's why one day Biden says one thing, and the next day he sends Yellen or Blinken over to China to make nice. One day it's hot, one day it's cold. A schizophrenic foreign policy. I was very sad to hear that. The singer Tony Bennett died very recently. You all know him. He was an icon of American singing for decades. Originally an Italian immigrant family, Di Benedetto was his origin. He fought in World War II, and he had an experience there that shook him. He was friends with another musician who happened to be black. And while in the army, they were really badly treated, particularly his black friend, by white Southern army officers. It left a burning anger. And for the rest of Tony Bennett's life, he was in the forefront of fighting for civil rights for African American citizens. And was a progressive voice, very close to Harry Belafonte and others. And he ought to be remembered for having been as courageous as he was to break out of one way of thinking and entertain and become part of the progressive wing of American politics and culture. We've come to the end of the first half of today's program. Please stay with us. I think you'll find the interview with Ben Cohen of Ben and Jerry's very worthwhile. Welcome back, friends, to the second half of today's Economic update. I am very happy and proud to bring to our microphones and cameras Ben Cohen. He is a person that you kind of know, even if you don't know him directly. He is the co founder and former CEO of Ben and Jerry's Ice Cream. And as one of the many people in this world who have enjoyed the product of his labor. And I welcome all of you to meet the man behind that remarkable ice cream. Over the years, he has also established and collaborated with numerous social justice organizations, including the work around the Assange defense and many other issues. He's also authored several books, including above the How Qualified Immunity protects violent police. Here's another Ben and Jerry's Double Dip Capitalism. Lead with your values and make money too. And my favorite, the final title, Values Driven how to change the World, make money and have fun. So first of all, Ben Cohen, thank you very much for giving us some of your time and your insights.

[B]

Great to be here. Thanks for inviting me.

[A]

All right, let's jump right in. From the standpoint of a successful business person, how do you assess the current state of the US Economy? How does it look to you?

[B]

Well, it looks to me as it's looked for many, many years, that the economy is structured to benefit corporations and the ultra wealthy at the expense of everybody else. You know, supposedly Congress is supposed to regulate corporations, but instead the corporations are regulating Congress through campaign contributions, lobbyists and what have you. So it just seems to me like we're continuing in the same direction, which is pretty unsustainable. We have the greatest spread between, between rich and poor of any industrialized nation.

[A]

If you had the power to make changes, what kind of changes would you advocate? What's your voice about what? You know, the perennial question, what is to be done?

[B]

I would eliminate campaign contributions from the ultra wealthy and corporations. And I would have a campaign finance structure whereby every citizen in the country gets a voucher for a certain amount of money, maybe $100, and they can use that voucher to support whatever political candidate they want. So it creates a Level playing field. It makes it so candidates no longer play to corporations and the ultra wealthy, and it restores our democracy and makes it a government of the people again.

[A]

All right, let me move on because you've taken some controversial stands, and I want to give you a chance to explain what those stands are and why you have taken them. And there are many issues I could pick, and we're gonna talk about some other ones, but I picked two in particular. First, what's your take on the Ukraine war and the role that the United States is playing financing and arming Ukraine in that situation?

[B]

I feel like the United States and NATO actually provoked that war by expanding NATO to Russia's doorstep, doing the equivalent of placing nuclear weapons on the Canadian and Mexican borders of the United States. The United States wouldn't stand for that. I'm old enough to remember the Cuban Missile crisis, when there were weapons in Cuba aimed at us. The United States wouldn't allow it, and there was a threat of going to war over it. Certainly there's no justification for a war, and I certainly don't support Putin creating a war by. But there were several opportunities for a negotiated settlement that the United States kind of put the kibosh on. And so now what's happening is that we're just continuing the death and destruction and the horrors of war by continuing to provide these weapons instead of using the power of the United States to push for a negotiated settlement.

[A]

All right, let me turn to the next hot button issue. The relationship between Israel and the Palestinians, the Middle east, and the role of the United States as an ally and supporter of Israel, et cetera.

[B]

I don't think that it's tenable for a country to subjugate an entire population and have security. So I'm a huge supporter of the state of Israel in general. I certainly believe that the state of Israel should exist, but I disagree with its policies toward Palestine, essentially making an entire group of people oppressing an entire group of people for the actions of a comparatively few terrorists. I was certainly a supporter of the two state solution. A lot of people say that that's no longer a possibility because Israel has supported these settlements in the occupied territories. But I don't think that you can have security at the point of a gun, essentially. And I don't think that you could have security by oppressing an entire group of people.

[A]

All right, let me turn back to economics, given that you are the famous businessperson that you are. There's a classic view from the left politically that capitalism always has in it a Class struggle, a struggle between the employer on the one hand and the employees on the other hand. Most of my audience looks at that from the standpoint of the employee, since they are the vast majority. But I wondered whether you, in your special history and capacity, having been in some sense on both sides of this class struggle, what your take is, what do you think about that? How have you managed it or tried to in your own business life, given that you are a social critic? At the same time, I think that.

[B]

Capitalism with proper controls and constraints is a very viable system. I think capitalism, unfettered capitalism, which is what we have today in our country, creates havoc. It ends up having all the power in the hands of. Of the ultra wealthy and corporations and everybody else just becomes pawns. I was a supporter of Bernie Sanders, and he advocated for the type of capitalism that there are in what's called social democracies. The social democracies in Scandinavia, which prioritize the welfare of the general population. I think in our, you know, if they have a social democracy in our country, you would call it a corporate democracy. They have a democracy which is designed to benefit the society as a whole. We have a democracy that's designed to benefit corporations.

[A]

Would you agree with those who are beginning to say, and it's becoming louder and almost with every day, that the United States is a corporate democracy perhaps, but is in some sense moving towards a fascism, a kind of merger of the government and big business to become a pretty harsh system imposing their dominance and their domination of a capitalist system on the United States. What do you think about that kind of argument?

[B]

I agree with it. I think that is happening, that we are moving toward fascism. The dominance and the partnership of the government and the corporations is undeniable. I mean, the corporations, that's who provides, I believe, about 90% of campaign finances. How many lobbyists do the corporations have in Congress? For each member of Congress, I think it's something somewhere between 20 and 50. And the other factor I think, in fascism is authoritarianism. And I think that certainly trumpist elements in our society are acting in a very authoritarian fashion. I mean, I've seen op EDS from people who have lived in fascist societies, who have seen their government change from democracies to fascist governments, and they're saying they see all the same signs here. The thing to realize is that fascism just doesn't happen overnight. It's a gradual movement. And like the proverbial frog in the pot of water that's heating up, you don't notice it until you're dead.

[A]

I wanted to ask your reaction to something that has generated more mail to me in the last few days than anything else, remark by Florida Governor DeSantis in which he may have been responding to someone else about how slaves were given skills and that this is a fact that he wants to give importance to. This is the same man who justified earlier changes in the curriculum of high school and public school teachers, because they shouldn't make anybody uncomfortable with whatever it is they're teaching about history. Obviously, talking about slavery in terms of skill acquisition is going to make a lot of people uncomfortable. And the emails to me all cite that as a major step in this direction toward fascism.

[B]

Yeah, I think that's exactly correct. It is a major step in that direction. If someone were to put me in chains and whip me and require me to learn how to sow, I might learn how to sow. But is that what we're advocating? Is that what we're saying is a good thing? It's absurd. I mean, it's a justification for abusing people.

[A]

Yeah. And, you know, you might extend it. You might help Governor DeSantis by telling him he has other examples to give on the reservations that we imposed on the indigenous people. They learned some skills in the concentration camps of European fascism. Some of the people incarcerated learn some skills. Is that really what it is we ought to think about and teach in regard to these historic. It is an extraordinary movement. Here's my last question, because we're running out of time. Tell us why you have started, if my information is correct, you've started a cannabis business. And I wanted to know what your reasoning was in doing that.

[B]

Sure. It's actually a nonprofit licensing business, and the reason was that I used to smoke pot back in the day, but then I try to smoke pot today, and it's just too damn strong. And so I was sitting around a campfire with a friend of mine, and we said, well, maybe we should come out with some pot that's really kind of lower in thc. And we thought we'd call it mediocre marijuana or something like that, and we had a good laugh about it, and the idea just kind of stuck in my head, and I decided to do it. So this product, it's called B3 for Ben's Best Blends, has about 6 to 8% THC, whereas the stuff they're usually selling at dispensaries is 20 to 30%. So our motto is get there slower. And it's a much more enjoyable ride and much more easygoing way. You know, I used to chug shots of vodka when I was a young boy, and I understand that. But now I'm an old man, and, you know, I like sipping some wine or sipping some beer, and it's. It's more like that sort of thing. And the whole purpose of this business is to help right the wrongs of the war on drugs, so. So that's where 100% of its profits go. And we're trying to hopefully license other entrepreneurs, black entrepreneurs in other states.

[A]

Thank you very much, Ben, for your time again for your wisdom. I hope you've enjoyed this program as much as I did, and I look forward, as always, to speaking with you again next week.