Economic Update with Richard D. Wolff
Episode: American Style Fascism
Date: September 30, 2025
Episode Overview
In this episode, Richard D. Wolff critically examines the contemporary rise of fascistic tendencies in the United States, drawing connections between economic inequality, political shifts, and recent movements at home and abroad. The episode features an in-depth interview with Michael Stephen Smith, co-author of the new book From the Flag to the Cross: Fascism American Style, exploring how fascism manifests uniquely in America, the economic roots fueling it, and ways it can be meaningfully opposed.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Labor Update: Air Canada Flight Attendant Strike
[02:00-06:40]
- Strike Background: Wolff shares an update on the Air Canada and Air Canada Rouge flight attendants’ strike, emphasizing the workers' refusal to be intimidated by government back-to-work orders and their overwhelming rejection (99.1%) of a proposed contract raising wages insufficiently.
- Economic Context: Over a decade, these workers’ real earnings fell behind inflation, sparking outrage: “They were earning less in terms of what they could afford to buy than they were at the beginning.”
“These are strong unionists and I want to shout out to them, we see you and we admire and respect what you are fighting for.” (Wolff, 06:25)
2. Public Opinion on Socialism in the U.S.
[07:05-11:00]
- Polling Trends: Recent polls reveal a profound shift within the Democratic party—60% of Democrats view socialism favorably, contrasted with only 42% expressing positive views of capitalism. The polling shows a growing divide between party leadership and the base.
- Political Dynamics: Wolff highlights the poll numbers for a socialist mayoral candidate in New York, suggesting a broader realignment is underway.
“The old centrists who run the Democratic Party nationally are no longer the mainstream of the Democratic Party… They're trying to hold on to a party whose majority has moved on and that's not a tenable situation and will explode the American politics soon.” (Wolff, summarizing Harold Meyerson, 10:30)
- Implications: Wolff provocatively asks if the real way to oppose Trump might lie within embracing this new direction, rather than fighting it.
3. Epstein Scandal and Political Elites
[11:30-13:30]
- Global Power Structures: Wolff references a Nigel Farage quote minimizing the Epstein scandal, while drawing attention to prominent figures like former UK ambassador Peter Mendelssohn losing their positions due to ties with Epstein.
“So the idea that you're guilty by association because you knew Epstein, I mean, you would put the whole of America in jail. Who were prominent people in business or media in the 1980s.” (Nigel Farage, 12:10)
- Commentary: Wolff points out the pervasiveness and impunity of elite networks.
4. French Mass Protests Against Austerity
[13:40-15:50]
- French Response to Austerity: Hundreds of thousands take to the streets to oppose canceled holidays, pension cuts, and attacks on the national health service. Wolff frames it as a lesson in popular resistance.
“We will not tolerate it. The government collapsed. A new prime minister had to be named… And the people said, we will not tolerate it. The government collapsed.” (Wolff, 15:20)
- Takeaway: Wolff contends that U.S. audiences should learn from France’s broad, organized resistance to neoliberal policy.
Main Interview: Michael Stephen Smith on "American-Style Fascism"
5. Defining and Diagnosing American Fascism
[16:00-21:00]
- Book Inspiration: Smith traces his motivation to Trotsky’s pamphlet, Brecht’s assertion that you can’t talk about fascism without critiquing capitalism, and Sinclair Lewis’ warning:
“When fascism comes to America, it'll be wrapped in the flag and carry a cross. And that's what our book is about.” (Smith, 17:40)
- Defining Features:
- Anti-democratic structure enabled by billionaire dominance and money in politics (“elections are rigged and fixed”).
- Racism, misogyny, scapegoating immigrants.
- Hypermasculinity (e.g., Smith’s anecdote about Trump’s inauguration, 18:20).
- Manipulation of anger and economic despair onto scapegoats:
“Trump and the people around him are trying to deflect from the anger and frustration and despair that people feel, they're trying to deflect that onto scapegoats, and that's why they're going after immigrants.” (Smith, 19:30)
6. Is Fascism Arriving or Already Here?
[19:46-21:00]
- Smith's Assessment:
“I would say that it's coming. Part of it's here. They're taking baby steps. In fact, little more than baby steps. I think they've rounded second base and they're heading for third.” (Smith, 19:56)
- Preemptive Repression: Smith outlines how the ruling class, fearing mass uprising, is using state power (like the National Guard deployments using legal workarounds) to suppress dissent.
7. Is Trump the Driver or Symptom?
[21:00-25:00]
- Analysis:
- Trump is “a symptom of the disease. He’s not the disease. The disease is capitalism.”
- Comparison to earlier periods: from “invigorating capitalism” to “geriatric capitalism” now taking repressive, preemptive measures.
- Cult of Personality: Trump’s resilience through scandals demonstrates a disturbing “cult figure” status.
“Trump is more than just a politician. He's a cult figure… Trump said…he could shoot somebody on Fifth Avenue and get away with it. And that's true. He probably could.” (Smith, 23:25)
- Elite Orchestration:
“We're up against big money organized and the think tanks in Washington, D.C. Trump doesn't dream up these legislations… The legislation that he's doing is written by Project 2025. They put it across his desk and he signs it. That's our problem. Trump is a tool and he's a very effective one.” (Smith, 27:45)
8. What Can Oppose Fascism?
[25:00-28:40]
- Class Power and Social Movements:
- Importance of labor and unions: “We have to support that. The only way that we can counter that is by the power of the working class. What we need is a vast socialist movement.”
- Smith points to examples like Seattle councilwoman Kshama Sawant’s victories on minimum wage and taxation as models:
“She didn't back off when she was confronted by the Democrats. She stood up to them. And that's what we're hoping that Mondaghi will do in New York City.” (Smith, 27:10)
- Emphasizes connecting socialist policies directly to working-class needs: free buses, childcare, rent freeze.
- Failure of Democrats: Democrats’ refusal to raise minimum wage and reluctance to support true left candidates symbolizes the systemic problems.
9. Optimism or Pessimism?
[28:30-29:48]
- Perspectives on the Future:
- Chris Hedges: “It’s all over. They’ve won.”
- Smith, uncertain but committed:
“I fight fascism not because I think we can win, but because it’s the right thing to do.” (Smith, 29:10) “As Ernest Mandel, the great economist who you admire, said, we're at the foot of the Himalayas. We don't have adequate tools, but we've got to climb up that mountain. And that's how I feel.” (Smith, 29:40)
- Hopeful Signs: Massive demonstrations (“5 million people in the streets”), Mamdani campaign in NY, and resurging union activity.
Notable Quotes
- Richard D. Wolff:
“These are strong unionists and I want to shout out to them, we see you and we admire and respect what you are fighting for.” (06:25)
- Michael Stephen Smith:
“When fascism comes to America, it'll be wrapped in the flag and carry a cross. And that's what our book is about.” (17:40)
“You can't have A democratic country with 1100 billionaires. It's impossible.” (18:36)
“Trump is a symptom of the disease. He's not the disease. The disease is capitalism.” (21:03)
“I fight fascism not because I think we can win, but because it’s the right thing to do.” (29:10)
“We're at the foot of the Himalayas. We don't have adequate tools, but we've got to climb up that mountain.” (29:40)
Important Timestamps
- Air Canada strike and labor discussions: 02:00–06:40
- Shifts in public perception of socialism: 07:05–11:00
- Epstein and elite impunity: 11:30–13:30
- Mass protests in France: 13:40–15:50
- Interview with Michael Smith begins: 16:00
- Defining American fascism: 17:40–19:46
- Is fascism coming or here?: 19:46–21:00
- Analysis of Trump and systemic drivers: 21:00–25:00
- Strategies for resistance: 25:00–28:40
- Closing reflections on hope and action: 28:30–29:48
Episode Tone & Closing
The language throughout is urgent, analytic, and direct. Wolff and Smith merge historical depth with present-day analysis, speaking frankly about threats but also about the responsibility to resist, even against unfavorable odds. The episode ends with a sober, yet hopeful nod to ongoing social struggle and the ongoing necessity for organized resistance.
Recommended Listening:
For anyone seeking to understand the intersection of economic inequality, political shifts, and the growing specter of authoritarianism in the U.S.—as well as concrete examples of social resistance—this episode offers a rich and thought-provoking analysis.