Best Of Series Part 3: Interviews Echoing Today

Summary

Economic Update with Richard D. Wolff: Best Of Series Part 3 – Interviews Echoing Today

In this compelling episode of Economic Update with Richard D. Wolff, host Richard D. Wolff curates a selection of impactful interviews from previous episodes, highlighting enduring economic issues and their intricate connections with law, politics, and global dynamics. This long-form summary delves into the key discussions with three distinguished guests: Leonard Goodman, Stephanie Kelton, and Yanis Varoufakis, capturing their insights on the interplay between the legal system and the economy, the rise of corporate power, and the shifting landscape of the global economy.

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1. Leonard Goodman: The Intersection of Law, Politics, and the Economy

Timestamp Highlights: [04:10 – 16:48]

Leonard Goodman, a seasoned Chicago criminal defense lawyer with 25 years of experience, engages in a profound discussion about how politics permeates the legal system and, by extension, the economy. Goodman elucidates three primary ways in which politics influences the criminal justice system:

1. Politically Motivated Prosecutions: Goodman references the investigation into former President Donald Trump and his associates, highlighting concerns over politically charged legal actions. He states, "politically motivated investigations and prosecutions... show that highly politicized opposition research found its way into a criminal investigation of Trump and his associates during the election" ([04:44]).

2. Protection of Corporate Interests: He underscores the federal government's role in safeguarding corporate interests, citing examples like the aggressive prosecution of pipeline protesters and the tragic case of Aaron Swartz. Goodman remarks, "You could look at what's going on with the pipeline protesters... and Aaron Swartz... he downloaded some copyrighted materials, not for personal profit, but to release them to the public. And he was aggressively prosecuted... and he took his own life tragically" ([05:20]).

3. Selective Prosecution and Economic Inequality: Goodman critiques the disparity in legal accountability, where high-level corporate figures often evade prosecution while low-level individuals face harsh penalties. He illustrates this with the mortgage fraud crisis, stating, "Eric Holder candidly admitted in 2013, they don't prosecute bankers... But who does go to jail? It's generally the politically powerless" ([07:10]).

Goodman emphasizes the systemic flaws where economic policies and legal practices disproportionately impact marginalized communities, perpetuating economic instability and inequality.

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2. Stephanie Kelton: Corporate Power and Economic Stability

Timestamp Highlights: [09:22 – 16:48]

Stephanie Kelton, a renowned economist and proponent of Modern Monetary Theory (MMT), delves into the concept of inverted totalitarianism and its implications for economic policy and societal stability. Drawing from Sheldon Wolin's framework, Kelton explains how corporate interests have overshadowed democratic processes:

• Inverted Totalitarianism: Kelton describes this as a system where "economics takes precedence over politics," contrasting it with traditional fascism where "politics would take precedence over economics." She argues that in today's landscape, "power really does rest now completely in the hands of corporate America." ([09:22])

• Consumer Control and Debt: She discusses how consumerism and debt have become tools for controlling the populace, referencing Wolin's idea of "cheap consumer products produced in sweatshops overseas and access to easy credit." Kelton highlights the pitfalls of corporatized credit systems, warning of "debt peonage" where individuals are trapped by escalating credit costs and mounting medical expenses ([11:29]).

• Potential for Social Unrest: Kelton warns of the impending "debt bubble implosion," particularly with student debt exceeding a trillion dollars, which could unleash widespread anger and exacerbate societal divisions. She critiques the Democratic Party for "committing political suicide by refusing to address the issues that gave rise to Trump and the insurgency of Bernie Sanders about hate," suggesting that unresolved economic grievances fuel extremist movements ([14:23]).

Kelton's analysis underscores the urgent need for systemic economic reforms to mitigate corporate dominance and address the root causes of economic and social instability.

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3. Yanis Varoufakis: The Fragmentation of the Global Economy and the Threat of Conflict

Timestamp Highlights: [16:58 – 30:57]

Yanis Varoufakis, an esteemed economist, former Greek Finance Minister, and author of "What Killed Capitalism", provides a critical examination of the evolving global economic order. Varoufakis addresses the disintegration of the US-led economic dominance and the emergence of rival blocs:

• Cloud Capital vs. Traditional Finance: Varoufakis introduces the concept of "cloud capital," a fusion of internet-based technologies and finance, primarily dominated by American and Chinese enterprises. He warns that this shift threatens the US's "hegemony of the dollar payment system," suggesting that China’s advancements in cloud finance could undermine the dollar's global supremacy ([22:00]).

  "Cloud capital has merged with Chinese finance capital to create what I call cloud finance in China because that is a clear and present danger to the predominance of the dollar payment system." ([23:44])

• Potential for Armed Conflict: He expresses concerns over geopolitical tensions, particularly regarding Taiwan, attributing the heightened risk of conflict to China's challenge to the dollar's dominance. Varoufakis cautions that the US might resort to extreme measures to preserve its economic hegemony, including the possibility of "nuclear war to prevent losing that monopoly." ([25:07])

  "Why should the Emiratis or the South Africans... submit to the predominance of the dollar payment system where the United States government can confiscate billions and billions at will of whoever it doesn't like, but the United States will nuke itself if it needs to do it in order to preserve its dollar monopoly." ([25:07])

• Europe’s Irrelevance: Varoufakis is decidedly pessimistic about Europe's role in the global arena, labeling it as "absolutely irrelevant." He argues that internal divisions and the lack of cohesive leadership within the European Union render it incapable of influencing or stabilizing global economic and political tensions.

  "Europe is irrelevant, Rick, absolutely irrelevant." ([27:51])

  He laments the decline of unified European power, pointing out that contemporary European leadership lacks the influence and control necessary to impact global dynamics, thereby contributing to worldwide instability ([30:36]).

Varoufakis emphasizes the urgent need for global solidarity and systemic economic overhauls to prevent catastrophic conflicts driven by economic rivalries and the collapse of established financial systems.

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Conclusion

This episode of Economic Update with Richard D. Wolff masterfully weaves together critical analyses from experts across the legal and economic spectra. Leonard Goodman brings to light the symbiotic relationship between politics and the legal system, exposing systemic injustices that exacerbate economic inequality. Stephanie Kelton expands on the overarching dominance of corporate power and its detrimental effects on democratic institutions and social stability. Lastly, Yanis Varoufakis presents a sobering view of the fractured global economy, highlighting the looming threats posed by technological and financial upheavals.

Together, these interviews offer a comprehensive exploration of the multifaceted challenges facing contemporary economies, underscored by the urgent need for transformative policies and global cooperation to foster equitable and sustainable economic systems.

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Notable Quotes:

• Leonard Goodman ([04:44]): "politically motivated investigations and prosecutions... show that highly politicized opposition research found its way into a criminal investigation of Trump and his associates during the election."

• Stephanie Kelton ([09:22]): "power really does rest now completely in the hands of corporate America."

• Yanis Varoufakis ([23:44]): "Cloud capital has merged with Chinese finance capital to create what I call cloud finance in China because that is a clear and present danger to the predominance of the dollar payment system."

• Yanis Varoufakis ([25:07]): "Why should the Emiratis or the South Africans... submit to the predominance of the dollar payment system... but the United States will nuke itself if it needs to do it in order to preserve its dollar monopoly."

• Yanis Varoufakis ([27:51]): "Europe is irrelevant, Rick, absolutely irrelevant."

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This summary encapsulates the essence of the episode, presenting a cohesive narrative that connects legal, political, and economic dimensions shaping our world today.

Transcript

[Rick Wolff]

Today's episode is a little different than usual. It is a compilation of segments from previous episodes of of Economic Update that remain relevant for all of us today. And I hope it provides you with a fresh look at what's changed, how far we've come and how far we haven't over the last decade. Before we get into today's Best of episode of Economic Update, I want to take a minute and talk to you about an exciting opportunity for those of you that may be interested in starting a worker co op, converting a business you own into a worker co op, or perhaps constructing a worker co op in a place where you're currently working. If any of those ideas strike you as interesting, I want you to know that we have teamed up with Left Forum and People's Network for Land and Liberation to offer a 14 week course online that equips participants with with the tools to build, maintain and grow your very own worker co op. It's called the Worker Co Op Academy. It's inspired by the Wellspring Cooperative Corporation in Springfield, Massachusetts. The course will be led by Emily Kawano and David Cobb. You can find out more about the program, the instructors, and apply for the course by going to democracyatwork.infowca for workers co Op Academy. The deadline to apply is August 19th and I encourage you to visit our website to learn more about this program and others that we offer. Thank you as always for your time and your interest. I'm very pleased today to address a topic with a guest, a topic that we have not devoted enough attention to, and it's broadly defined as the relationship between law, the practice of law, the justice, criminal justice system on the one hand and the economy on the other. If we're going to do economic updates, we have to also update the relationship between the law and the economy. And it's in a very important way. My guest today is Leonard Goodman. He's a Chicago criminal defense lawyer with 25 years experience. He has done both high profile and indigent law. He's been a champion of defendants on both levels. He's also won cases at literally every level in both state and federal courts, including the United States Supreme Court. His current clients include the former Governor of Illinois, Rod Blagojevich, I hope is the right pronunciation. His work on behalf of the wrongfully convicted has won awards such as for an Afghani man held for 12 years at Guantanamo Bay without charges before his release in December 2014. Currently, Leonard Goodman is an adjunct professor at the DePaul University College of Law and A member of the advisory board of the center on Wrongful Convictions at Northwestern University College of Law. He also founded the Leonard C. Goodman Institute for Investigative Reporting, which supports independent journalists doing investigative projects. He writes frequently for in these Times magazine on law and politics. It is a pleasure to welcome Leonard Goodman to Economic Update. Thank you so much for joining us.

[Leonard Goodman]

Thank you for having me.

[Rick Wolff]

Okay, let's jump right in. Given current headlines in the United States, would you say that politics, in some sense is part of the legal system? Plays a key role in the legal system. And the reason I ask is that at least in high school and so forth, we were always told that the law stands somehow above the political fray as some neutral arbiter of our differences. And I wanted to get your reaction. As a practicing attorney, I would say.

[Leonard Goodman]

That politics does affect the criminal justice system probably in three ways. I mean, the one way that I think is in the news now is pure politically motivated investigations and prosecutions, which people are talking about because of the release of this memo, which does seem to show that highly politicized opposition research found its way into a criminal investigation of Trump and his associates during the election. I think that's the most rare, I think more common. You do see the federal government.

[Stephanie Kelton]

Use.

[Leonard Goodman]

Its power to protect the interest of corporations. We see that with, I mean, you could look at what's going on with the pipeline protesters and the federal government and the FBI getting involved in infiltrating some of those protest groups and aggressively prosecuting. There was a case a while back, some of your listeners may remember Aaron Swartz, who was really an activist for free Internet, and he downloaded some copyrighted materials, not for personal profit, but to release them to the public. And he was aggressively prosecuted, threatened with decades in prison, and he took his own life tragically. So there are those cases, I would actually say that you see the use of the federal government to aid corporate interests more starkly with the Department of Defense and what goes on with our military, where policies that just seem to not be serving the interests of the public, but do serve the interests of the weapons manufacturers, do serve the interests of oil and other mineral extraction industries throughout the Middle east and Africa. So I think probably the most common way that politics plays into the criminal justice system in who is, in who doesn't get prosecuted. So, for example, we had a systematic fraud in the mortgage markets that caused countless people to lose their homes. People were swindled out of their homes. People, probably more of them, people of color, lost their homes and a majority of their wealth in this and the federal government. If you look at federal, for example, press releases that come out of my neck of the woods in Chicago, they'll talk about how the Department of Justice is pursuing an aggressive, coordinated and proactive effort to bring to justice the perpetrators of mortgage fraud schemes. But as Eric Holder candidly admitted in 2013, they don't prosecute bankers. He basically said that these institutions have become too large, it's too difficult to prosecute them, whatever the excuse is, too big to jail, they say. But who does go to jail? And it's generally the politically powerless. I've represented many, many people charged with mortgage fraud. All of them are very low level people, people that were encouraged by the banks and loan officers during the go go 2000s to take out these loans that everyone knew they couldn't pay back. And they were told, don't worry, you're going to build a refund finance and you could buy these properties. You could be Donald Trump and be in real estate. And a lot of these people went to real estate courses to learn how to do this. And they were encouraged to inflate their income. In fact, the banks set up these programs. They were nicknamed liar's loans. They were technically called stated income loans, where you say your income and we will not check. So that's what these people did. And they bought several properties and they thought, they fixed them up and they tried to be real estate and, and the market crashed and now these people are going to prison. They're aggressively prosecuted by the Department of Justice. And when they get out of prison, the federal government comes after them to pay restitution to Wells Fargo bank or to bank of America or Citibank or whoever held the loan and lost money. So it's, it's quite.

[Rick Wolff]

Whereas the people at the top who designed this whole system and ran it, walk away.

[Leonard Goodman]

Walk away.

[Rick Wolff]

We are experiencing extraordinary levels of inequality in the United States. Instability, change, turmoil. And now on top of it, the Trump administration's imposition of an extreme right wing agenda. Do you believe. And you. I know you travel a lot, you talk to a lot of people. Are we approaching a kind of tipping point, crisis point?

[Stephanie Kelton]

The.

[Rick Wolff]

Do you have a sense of an impending explosion or implosion as the end game of all of this?

[Stephanie Kelton]

Yeah, but Trump is not the genesis of our problem. We live in a system that Sheldon Wolin calls inverted totalitarianism. And this is spelled out in his last book, Democracy Incorporated. And it's this sense of the corporate coup d' etat that it's not traditional totalitarianism where you overthrow a system and replace its iconography and language, and it revolves around a charismatic leader, but it's through the power of the anonymity of the corporate state. It's where economics takes precedence over politics. Fascism, for instance, politics would take precedence over economics. And so the facade is like the late Roman Republic. The facade remains. I mean, the Senate under Augustus is still, in theory, operating. The Senate operates under Nero Caligula, commodious. All of the late commodious kind of reminds me of Trump. And so Trump is the product of a failed democracy. Trump is the product of a system that has been seized by a tiny corporate cabal and administered by mandarins or courtiers in the Republican and Democratic Party. So Trump is the symptom, not the disease.

[Rick Wolff]

Tell me, let me jump a little bit. This word fascism gets used to lightly, easily. You just said you didn't do that. Do you think a fascism is underway here? Or. And I mean fascism in the traditional German and Italian notion of the big businesses and the state literally fusing to manage each other in some sort.

[Stephanie Kelton]

No, because under Italian and German fascism, there was an uneasy relationship with the state. So when the Nazis came to power, and I would argue that Wall street, they find Trump an embarrassment. How can you not find him an embarrassment? And yet he did do what the fascists did both in Italy and Germany, is they went straight to the centers of power and said, what do you want? And what they wanted was destruction of Dodd Frank, not that it's particularly useful. Massive tax cuts which they got, and deregulation of everything. The fossil fuel industry, the financial industry, and that's what Trump gave them. And then the military, he gave them a 10% budget increase even though they never asked for it. And he gave them carte blanche to run our overseas military projects. And that's, you know, you look back, I don't want to call Trump Hitler, because he's not. They're very different. But. But Hitler did the same. The Wehrmacht couldn't stand the Brownshirts, and so he got rid of the brownshirts. Krupp, IB Farben, very uneasy with the Nazis. But I think that power now, Trump doesn't come from a party the way the Nazi party or the way the black shirts were in Italy. So it's different. Power really does rest now completely in the hands of corporate America. And so the proper term is probably Sheldon Wolin's inverted totalitarianism, but it's, I would argue, a species of fascism. And I talked to Wolin before he died. And Wolin said that the great kind of the way you buy off the populace is through cheap consumer products produced in sweatshops overseas and access to easy credit. Well, that access to easy credit is gone, partly because of the huge, the trillions in bailouts. The money does have to be paid back, even though it's zero percent interest. And of course, they do it by forcing us into debt peonage. So your credit card is late, next thing you know you're paying 28% on it. It's all the medical costs, all the ways they have to extract money from us. So the, the danger I think that we face comes when that debt bubble implodes. Student debt is what, over a trillion? And eventually it implodes. And then the rage, and the rage is already powerful. And I should throw in that we're watching the Democratic Party commit political suicide by refusing to address the issues that gave rise to Trump and the insurgency of Bernie Sanders about hate.

[Rick Wolff]

The hate groups, they're getting more and more numerous. Today's New York Times, another story about it interwoven with the Republican Party increasingly, apparently. Where does that fit in this proliferation, you mentioned it earlier, but this proliferation of groups that really want to use violence to enact a purifications ceremony of sorts here in the United States, well.

[Stephanie Kelton]

We should first be clear that that's always been within the DNA of American society that Richard Slotkin calls regeneration through violence. So it's always been there. And white hate groups have always been there, going all the way back to the slave patrols and the Klan and, and the Baldwin Felts and the Pinkertons. And they've always been part of the DNA of American society. And in times of societal distress or eventually probably economic collapse, these hate groups will be unleashed. I mean, Trump is already inciting these groups towards violence, rhetorically. He did during the campaign, too, and he's done since. But we live now in a period of relative stability, which with that stability gone, then these groups will be, in essence, unleashed. They'll be given a kind of green light to attack the vulnerable. I mean, the whole idea that 11 or 12 million undocumented workers is responsible for the economic decline of the United States, you're already in crazy lands. You're already in crazy land, right? I mean, most of them are earning below them. It doesn't make any sense, but it works. As you know, and I saw it in Yugoslavia, with the economic collapse of Yugoslavia, and then this rapacious and often buffoonish Radha von Karadich was every bit as buffoonish as Donald Trump, and so were the Nazis. I mean, Hitler couldn't even speak proper German. But these buffoons are dangerous, and they channel that rage, and it's a legitimate rage in terms of betrayal towards the weak, towards the vulnerable. And these groups are at the forefront of that. And the state wants that rage and wants that energy to be directed away from where it should be directed, which is at the elite ruling class that has mismanaged and the system that is decomposing on us.

[Rick Wolff]

So it is with great pleasure that I introduce you and welcome Stephanie Kelton. Hi, Stephanie.

[Yanis Varoufakis]

Hi, Rick.

[Rick Wolff]

Nice to see you again.

[Yanis Varoufakis]

Nice to see you. Thank you for having me.

[Rick Wolff]

Now, let's talk a little bit about one or the other of your many hats that you have worn. As a former advisor to Bernie Sanders, someone who is of great interest to the audience that we reach. I was wondering how, after a good year of this current administration, the Trump administration, how folks around Bernie, but you in particular, how you assess what you were trying to accomplish in the Bernie campaign with what has happened. Have your fears been recognized? Have you been surprised in terms particularly of the economy, which you and I study? What's your reaction a year in.

[Yanis Varoufakis]

Well, let's start with the reaction to the economy. I guess I'm not terribly surprised, to be honest, in terms of what the economy's been doing. It's been sort of slogging along at a kind of anemic pace for most of the recovery. So nine now going on 10 years. I don't think I expected much to change over the course of this year anyway. You know, the big surprise maybe is how little the Republicans, given that they run the table, they've got the White House, they have both houses, the Senate and the House, how little they've been able to accomplish in terms of legislation. I think that's been surprising to me, where we are as a country. Look, the people who put Donald Trump in office were in some ways the kinds of people who were sympathetic to the Sanders campaign. That is, they felt like something wasn't working. They knew that the economy wasn't working for them. They knew that something wasn't right. It didn't feel right. Maybe it had to do with trade. Maybe it had to do with the, you know, tax cuts. Maybe it had to do with big banks, maybe, you know, I don't know. But they knew something was wrong. And they understood this block of voters that the person who was saying, give us basically eight more years and we'll keep the good times going, there was something wrong with that message. So, you know, in a lot of ways it didn't surprise me that his message, like Senator Sanders message won the day. Although obviously differences, right? Important differences. But in terms of the economics, there's still very much a need and those voices aren't being heard. And I think to some extent I'm a little bit surprised. I'm surprised at just how egregious this administration has been in turning their backs so quickly on the people that put them into office. There's basically nothing in this piece of tax legislation that's coming down the pike for all of these people who he said you're hurting, we know you're hurting. And what did he tell them? Help is on the way. Help is on the way. There's no help for these people in this atrocious piece of legislation.

[Rick Wolff]

So let me keep on that. Do you think either a movement of those people away from Trump towards something like Sanders movement is underway or if you don't, is it coming?

[Yanis Varoufakis]

I'm not sure that it's underway because I don't know that the signal has been sent that there is, that there is that alternative still lurking there for them. Okay. So in terms of the revolution, you know, there's a movement afoot and all that sort of stuff, I don't know that it's underway in a very powerful way, but I think it's ripe for the taking. And I think that to the extent that that message continues and voters begin to see, and they will, it's going to take a little bit of time before people put two and two together and figure out we got totally bamboozled by this messenger.

[Rick Wolff]

Right.

[Yanis Varoufakis]

He said he was going to be there for us. He's not. And the more believable messenger I think for millions of Americans is Senator Sanders.

[Rick Wolff]

I am very, very happy to bring back to our microphones and our camera Yannis Varoufakis, a friend of mine now for quite some years, an economics professor, a best selling author and who was also Greece's finance minister back in the momentous period of 2015. He co founded the Pan European Movement, DiEM25 and the Progressive International. His recent book, what Killed Capitalism suggests that we are living in a new form of capital, provoking a new cold war. So first of all, Yanis, thank you very much for joining us.

The pleasure is always great and all mine.

All right. I want your wisdom. I really do want to ask you these momentous questions. I know we don't have all that much time, but I would like sort of the essence If I can, of your thinking about it, is it your view, as it is of many others, that the world economy is now disintegrating from what it was, dominated by the United States with its European allies, et cetera, and becoming a two block system, namely G7 more or less on one side and BRICS more or less on the other side. And so that the whole world in a sense is adjusting to this transformation of what was for a century and is no longer. Does that fit your view or not?

I think that we progressives, we on the left over exaggerate the importance of the BRICs, while Washington, the establishment, the radical center, call them what you might underestimate the brics. Look, we're Marxist, Rick. So this talk about blocks and about the clash of the titans leaves me rather cold. What I find very interesting is the class war within China and the class war within the United States. So let me put it this way. If you are an aluminum producer in Shanghai or Shenzhen, you are completely tied up to the dollar payment system and to the American deficit which fuels the demand for your aluminum. And you really don't want any clash between China and the United States. If you are an American blue collar.

Worker.

Whose job in life is jeopardized by this recycling of surpluses, surpluses produced by Chinese proletariats that end up in their interior sector of the US Economy while blue collar worker jobs are sacrificed in the United States, it's not really very easy to take sides on this. What I think is profoundly important is the manner in which the, what I call cloud capital, the, the Internet based technologies, digital technologies and I and so on of the Chinese companies, state and private, how that cloud capital has merged with Chinese finance capital to create what I call cloud finance in China because that is a clear and present danger to the predominance of the dollar payment system. And that is, and the reason for that, and I think you will, you, you understand this better than anyone else, is because in the United States there's no technological problem in merging cloud capital and finance. But there is a political problem. Wall street is never going to share its capacity to print money with the big tech brotherhood of the Silicon Valley. And that is where the Chinese are clear and present danger to the hegemony of the United States.

Okay, is there a war coming? Is the United States, when you look at the United States, for example, in terms of the South China Sea of Taiwan, all of this noise of what looks like to most of the world as provocation of a United States trying to stop or undermine Chinese development. Is that a war generating conflict?

Yes. We are in, we are living in Europe. The European Union is no longer a peace project. It's a European war union. You can see that the only thing they're talking about is common procurement, common armies and all that. And that is, given that the European Union is completely dependent on the United States, that reflects the war footing of the United States. But I'll go back to the. The conclusion to my previous answer. Why is it that suddenly Chinese development is a threat to American hegemony and therefore this is leading even to a nuclear war over Taiwan? Primarily the reason is the development of what I call cloud finance in China because there is only one reason why the United States remains hegemonic. The monopoly over the national payment system, the dollar system. Now, if they're about to lose that, they are going to lose the capacity to project power in the four corners of the earth and they will start a nuclear war to prevent losing that monopoly. And therefore I very much fear that these developments in China, which the Chinese have every reason to carry on and carry out, why should they submit themselves to the monopoly of the dollar payment system? Why should the Emiratis or the South Africans or the. They can really submit to the predominance of the dollar payment system where the United States government can confiscate billions and billions at will of whoever it doesn't like, but the United States will nuke itself if it needs to do it in order to preserve its dollar monopoly. So, yes, I very much fear that Taiwan, which has nothing to do with Taiwan, is going to become a very possible and a very likely point of conflict that may ignite such a war. So we need to take out our banners, our anti war banners, and take to the streets all over the world to prevent it.

As a European, as the head of a European movement of importance, where is Europe in all of this? Is Europe simply no longer a major player in this whole scenario as it evolves?

Europe is irrelevant, Rick, absolutely irrelevant. And allow me to give you just two examples because we don't have much time. I could be talking about this forever with a lot of pain in my heart. As a European. First example, if I'm right in my hypothesis, which you mentioned, the book in which I have outlined the technofeuderism, if I'm right, that there's a new form of capital called cloud capital, which is a produced means of behavioral modification, not a produced means of production, that that is becoming the main instrument by which surplus value is accumulated, it is Effectively siphoned off from the industrial sector, if I'm right. And therefore the powerful today are those who own large quantities of cloud capital. Who owns cloud capital? Americans and Chinese. 0. Cloud capital in Europe. 0. This is why Volkswagen is finished. It's kaput. Because Tesla is connected to the cloud. BYD is connected to the cloud. Volkswagen is not. And therefore it's going to simply fade away. It will be like British l, British Leyland in Britain. You know, something that some oldies like us, you and me, remember, that's one example. Second example. Imagine, and I wish it happened, but at the moment it stays at the plane of the imagination. Imagine that there was tomorrow at the United nations or somewhere else, a peace process on Ukraine. We know who would represent Russia. Putin, Ukraine. Zansky, the United States. Biden, if he's still capable of engaging with anything. Or Kamala or Trump or whoever. China. Xi, India. Modi. Who's going to represent Europe? Once upon a time, 10 years ago, five years ago, six years ago, we could have said Angela Merkel, who was a very powerful German chancellor. Today the German chancellor is not even in control of the German government. The French president is a lame duck and he has completely lost it in every sense of the way. The people who are actually running the show in the European Union when it comes to foreign policy are the Estonians, the Ukrainians, the Polands, the, the Polish who actually want a war with China, with Russia tomorrow. They are war mongering idiots who are, you know, if they had a button to press it and destroy Europe, they would tomorrow morning. So there's no such thing as Europe. Europe has become a figment of our imagination, which is extremely dangerous because we remain the most wealthy continent in the world, a very cultured continent, a continent with 500 million people, and yet we are irrelevant. And that is a clear and present cause of instability worldwide.

Yanis Varoufakis, thank you very, very much for your time. I'm sorry if I brought your summer vacation to a shorter length than you might have wanted, but you deserve your rest and we need your work as much as we always did. Thank you very much.

Thank you, Rick, and keep going.

Thank you and you too.