Capitalism and Culture, Their Connection in Crisis Now

Summary

Economic Update with Richard D. Wolff
Episode: "Capitalism and Culture, Their Connection in Crisis Now"
Release Date: July 15, 2025

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Introduction

In this compelling episode of Economic Update with Richard D. Wolff, host Richard Wolff delves into the intricate relationship between capitalism and culture, particularly amidst the current crises facing both systems. The episode, titled "Capitalism and Culture, Their Connection in Crisis Now," offers listeners a thorough examination of recent political developments, economic policies, and cultural shifts affecting American society.

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1. The Trump Administration's New Budget and Its Implications

Richard Wolff begins by analyzing the newly signed budget bill by President Trump, highlighting its ambiguous impact on medical insurance, especially Medicaid and Medicare.

• Medicaid Cuts: Wolff expresses uncertainty about the exact consequences of the budget cuts to Medicaid, the program serving the nation's poorest. He notes, “...the exact amounts, the forms they take, the timing of them is all up in the air” (02:00).

• Federal vs. State Responses: He explains the dual influence of federal and state governments on Medicaid, emphasizing that states can either compensate for federal cuts or exacerbate them by implementing additional reductions. “So the impact on you and me will depend not merely on what the federal government does, but how each of the state governments raised react” (02:15).

• Pre-Authorization in Medicare: The discussion shifts to the controversial extension of pre-authorization practices to Medicare, a system traditionally accessible to all elderly Americans regardless of wealth. Wolff warns, “Critics... see it as nothing short of a scam” (04:54). He underscores the severe consequences of such policies, including denied procedures leading to worsening health outcomes.

• Motivation Behind the Cuts: Addressing the Republican Party's motivations, Wolff states, “...the politicians wanted to spend less money on poor people or on old people” (06:08). He critiques the overarching strategy to offload societal burdens onto the middle and lower classes during America's capitalist decline.

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2. Zoran Mamdani's Victory in New York City's Democratic Primary

The focus shifts to the political landscape in New York City, where socialist candidate Zoran Mamdani triumphed in the Democratic primary for mayor, defeating incumbent Andrew Cuomo and others.

• Media Endorsement: Wolff points out the surprising lack of endorsement from the New York Times, a publication that typically supports Democratic candidates. “The liberal leaning New York Times refused to endorse Mr. Mamdani” (08:25).

• Union Leaders' Resignation: He highlights the resignation of two prominent union leaders from the Democratic National Committee, attributing their departure to the party's failure to address the needs of ordinary people. “They felt that the Democrats were not taking advantage of or speaking to the needs of ordinary people” (09:14).

• Split Between Liberals and Radicals: Wolff discusses the emerging divide within the Democratic Party, where liberal factions are losing influence to more radical, worker-focused elements. “In the Democratic community of New York... the split between radicals and liberals is emerging” (10:01).

• Historical Context: He provides historical context, tracing the decline of liberal influence back to post-World War II efforts to dismantle the New Deal, leading to the current polarization where liberals are losing ground to both the right and disaffected left-wing members. “[...] the liberals are now losing the left, which may turn out to be bigger than they are” (10:58).

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3. Economic Inequality and the Top 10%

Wolff elaborates on how the Trump administration's budget exacerbates economic inequality, benefiting the top 10% who hold two-thirds of the nation's wealth.

• Tax Cuts for the Wealthy: He critiques the administration's tax policies, stating, “The Trump budget... provides tax cuts that will be particularly useful to the top 10%” ([Décórating the aspects at point 30 is different.)

• Cuts Benefiting the Bottom 90%: Simultaneously, the budget includes spending cuts that predominantly affect the lower 90%, thereby deepening existing inequalities. “It cuts spending that is mostly used by the bottom 90%, thereby making the inequality... worse” (07:40).

• Political Parties' Role: Wolff argues that both major political parties have failed to address economic disparities, each contributing to the sustenance and deepening of capitalist inequality. “We don’t have two parties. We just have one with two declining wings” (11:25).

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4. Mexico's Participation in BRICS and US Economic Isolation

The episode briefly touches upon Mexico's decision to join the BRICS alliance, interpreting it as a sign of the United States’ growing economic isolation on the global stage. Wolff laments the lack of media coverage on such critical geopolitical shifts, stating, “the mass media would dare to show that to our people” (12:57).

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5. Interview with Professor Henry Giroux: Culture Crisis in Capitalism

In the second half of the episode, Richard Wolff welcomes Professor Henry Giroux, a distinguished scholar from McMaster University, to discuss the cultural dimensions of capitalism's current crisis.

a. The Nature of the Cultural Crisis

Professor Giroux asserts that the crisis in capitalism is inherently rooted in the system itself, which fails to address human needs or social justice.

• Market Indifference: He states, “the market has become so powerful that it's indifferent to questions of human needs... and social values” (17:44).

• Alignment with Fascism: Giroux warns that capitalism has increasingly aligned with fascist ideologies, promoting “a culture of despair” characterized by greed, corruption, and white supremacy. “It has aligned itself essentially with the culture of fascism” (20:19).

• Collapse of Social Responsibility: He describes a society where trust and community are eroded, leading to a “culture basically of death” (20:19).

b. The Rise of Neoliberal Fascism and Resistance

Giroux discusses the concept of "neoliberal fascism," a stage of capitalism marked by extreme inequality and authoritarian tendencies.

• Historical Context: He traces the rise of fascist logic to historical events like slavery and Jim Crow, culminating in contemporary politics exemplified by Trump’s administration. “...we now have white supremacists basically in power” (20:24).

• Emerging Resistance: Despite the oppressive climate, Giroux observes budding resistance movements seeking radical democratic solutions. “We are seeing the emergence of a counter... with a more sustaining narrative” (22:01).

• Role of Education and Media: Emphasizing the importance of informed citizenship, Giroux argues that education and alternative media are crucial in fostering the necessary consciousness for resistance. “Pedagogy, that education is not only central to politics, it's absolutely fundamental to politics” (24:30).

c. The State of Universities

The conversation shifts to the transformation of universities under neoliberal policies.

• Neoliberalization and Corporatization: Giroux critiques the shift of university control from faculty to neoliberal administrators, rendering institutions more corporate and less democratic. “The university today is a factory... it's been turned into centers of indoctrination” (26:45).

• Erosion of Critical Thinking: He laments the reduction of universities' roles in promoting critical thought and democracy, warning that without public education supporting the commons, democracy cannot thrive. “If you don't have public education and universities... you don't have a democracy” (29:30).

• Call to Action: Giroux urges faculty and students to resist these transformations through direct action and reimagining the university's mission to support democracy and the public good. “Faculty have to... reimagine what the mission of the university might be in a democracy” (29:50).

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6. Conclusion and Future Engagements

As the episode approaches its end, Richard Wolff acknowledges the insightful contributions of Professor Giroux and expresses a desire to continue exploring these critical issues in future discussions. He also takes a moment to thank listeners for their support and promotes a limited edition hardcover version of his book, Understanding Capitalism.

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Notable Quotes

• Richard Wolff on Medicaid Cuts:
  “The impact on you and me will depend not merely on what the federal government does, but how each of the state governments raised react” (02:15).

• On Pre-Authorization in Medicare:
  “Critics... see it as nothing short of a scam” (04:54).

• Henry Giroux on Market Indifference:
  “The market has become so powerful that it's indifferent to questions of human needs... and social values” (17:44).

• Giroux on Neoliberal Fascism:
  “It has aligned itself essentially with the culture of fascism” (20:19).

• On the Role of Education:
  “Pedagogy... is absolutely fundamental to politics” (24:30).

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Final Thoughts

This episode of Economic Update with Richard D. Wolff provides a nuanced exploration of the intertwined crises of capitalism and cultural integrity in contemporary America. Through incisive analysis and thought-provoking interviews, Wolff and his guest underscore the urgent need for systemic change and the revitalization of democratic values to address the profound challenges of our time.

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For more insights and in-depth discussions, tune in to next week's episode of Economic Update with Richard D. Wolff.

Transcript

[Richard Wolff]

Welcome friends to another edition of Economic Update, a weekly program devoted to the economic dimensions of our lives and those of our children. I'm your host, Richard Wolff.

[Charlie]

I want to remind you that Charlie.

[Richard Wolff]

Fabian is waiting word from you. If you have suggestions or proposals or comments on our programming, you can reach him as [e-mail] and likewise, a reminder that a companion volume to these programs is Understanding Capitalism, a book I wrote and that we released here at Democracy at Work earlier this year and that goes into greater depth and detail on the points that we raise in and by means of these more topically focused segments.

[Charlie]

Today we're going to be talking about the so called Medicare Advantage.

[Richard Wolff]

We're going to be talking again about the implications of the victory by Zoran Mamdani in New York City in the Democratic primary for mayor and the bill, the new budget bill that President Trump signed and that we are now working under in this country and if time permits, about the relationship between Mexico and the BRICS alliance. Okay, let's jump in. It is not altogether clear, not to me, not to the media, not even to Congress, what the exact consequences of the new Trump budget will be when it comes to medical insurance provided to the American people. There are cuts, especially apparently in Medicaid. That's the medical insurance for the poorest people among us. The Republican led Congress saw fit to cut that by a lot, although again, the exact amounts, the forms they take, the timing of them is all up in the air. And since these programs, like many others, involve cooperation between the federal government and the state governments, all 50 of them, the impact on you and me will depend not merely on what the federal government does, but how each of the state governments raised react to what the federal government does. So for example, if the federal government cuts something, the state government can step in and compensate, can spend more on that than the federal government did. That is often possible. That often occurs.

[Charlie]

On the other hand, the state government.

[Richard Wolff]

Can make matters worse by adding its own cuts on top of those that the federal government makes. All of that is why the exact outcome is something nobody can say with clear authority.

[Charlie]

And if you hear someone do it.

[Richard Wolff]

You should raise an eyebrow, to say the least. One of the major things that may.

[Charlie]

Happen is the extension of a practice.

[Richard Wolff]

Well known to in the Medicaid area.

[Charlie]

Extending it to the Medicare.

[Richard Wolff]

System. Again, a reminder, Medicaid is for poor people who can't afford it. Medicare is a program open to everyone who's elderly beyond the cutoff ages in the 60s that make you eligible in your declining years, toward the end of your life for medical care not necessarily connected to how wealthy you are or are not. This is called pre authorization.

[Charlie]

And in the mouths and minds of.

[Richard Wolff]

Critics, it is nothing short of a scam.

[Charlie]

What does pre authorization mean? It means if you have a problem.

[Richard Wolff]

And you have an injury, you have an illness, before you can get the medication or the procedure that your doctor thinks you need, you must get pre authorization from the insurance that you carry, if you have some.

[Charlie]

And what this does is often lead.

[Richard Wolff]

To conflict where the insurer says, I'm not covering that, and then you can't proceed because if you proceed anyway, then the bill comes to you, not to.

[Charlie]

The insurer to whom you've been paying.

[Richard Wolff]

Premiums in many cases.

[Charlie]

So this is a very serious problem.

[Richard Wolff]

And the Medicare community, which is tens of millions of Americans, is facing the risk that that may be coming. And it's well known that if you require pre authorization medic, many people who need a procedure will be told you.

[Charlie]

Can'T have it and will simply go.

[Richard Wolff]

Away and do without it and get sicker or die sooner, whatever it is.

[Charlie]

And it is admitted by the more.

[Richard Wolff]

Conservative types that this is a way.

[Charlie]

To spend less money on poor people.

[Richard Wolff]

Or on old people. And that's clearly what the motivation for the Republican Party was.

[Charlie]

It's clear that if you wanted to.

[Richard Wolff]

Solve the problems, and by the way, the excuse given is some doctors overuse or over prescribe medications or procedures, no doubt that's true, but you ought to be able to check on those people to have a system of controls which all such bureaucracies are supposed to have anyway. You don't solve a problem by some people scamming by having the whole system be denied. It's a little bit like saying we're not going to give you all your freedoms because some of you abuse the freedom you have. Yes, some of us do. That's a problem and we should solve it. But we don't do that by denying us all something we all need and benefit from. What we're watching is, as I've told you many times, is a declining American empire, a declining American capitalism. And what happens when that decline sets in is that the people at the top, the rich, the powerful, they hold on to what the empire gave them. And the course of the decline, they offload onto the middle and the bottom. And that's what this is all about. And that's why it's happening in so many different areas. That's why Mr. Musk was supposed to bring efficiency to the government. No, no, no. He was supposed to cut expenditures on social programs, something the Republican Party has been committed to and the Democratic Party has allowed for most of the last half century.

[Charlie]

I want to turn next to Mr.

[Richard Wolff]

Mamdani in New York, once again a.

[Charlie]

Socialist who ran in the Democratic Party.

[Richard Wolff]

Primary last June for mayor and who won decisively defeating the former Governor Andrew Cuomo and a handful of other candidates.

[Charlie]

So he is now the Democratic candidate for mayor going into the general election.

[Richard Wolff]

This coming, no, November. Two things caught my attention that ought to be seen together. The liberal leaning New York Times refused to endorse Mr. Mandani. The new York Times usually endorses the Democratic candidate. They did not and apparently have no intention of endorsing Mr. Mamdani.

[Charlie]

Here's the second on the Democratic Party National Committee.

[Richard Wolff]

That's the committee that runs the Democratic Party in the country as a whole. There were two union leaders who had positions on it. The head of the teachers union and the head of the American Federation of State, county and Municipal Employees. They both resigned from the Democratic National Committee not over the Mamdani, or at least they didn't say that, but because they felt that the Democrats were not taking advantage of or speaking to the needs of ordinary people in a way that made it impossible for these union leaders to stay on the committee.

[Charlie]

Here's what's going.

[Richard Wolff]

Liberals are becoming a smaller and smaller part of this culture. On the right they are facing maga. On the left, they are facing a mass population of working people that is disgruntled with that Democratic Party liberals. That's why those union folks quit and wants more radical answers and proposals. That's why the overwhelming majority wants Mr. Mandani. In the Democratic community of New York, or at least an overwhelming plurality. The split between radicals and liberals is emerging.

[Charlie]

I want to remind people.

[Richard Wolff]

It happened after World War II, when the business community wanted to undo the New Deal and went after the socialist parties, the Communist Party, the CIO union movement. Savagely and unrelentingly for decade after decade, the liberals caved in and joined in doing that. They were Republicans light. They never quite undid what the Republicans did to undo the New Deal. And so the country moved steadily to the right and now it's come full circle and the liberals are now losing the left, which may turn out to be bigger than they are. It's the middle that does not hold. And it ought to be something that all of us think about. The ascendancy in the left versus the decline of the liberals. Mr. Trump's new budget is. My next topic is a budget that serves the top 10% of the American people. What I earlier in this program told you, that 10% and in previous programs, as I've told you, who own two thirds of the wealth of this society. The people who really are those that run the society. The other 90% of us, we do the work, but we don't run the society. The top 10% owns 2/3 of the wealth. That is the key. Mr. Trump's budget doesn't touch that. It actually makes it worse. It provides tax cuts that will be particularly useful to the top 10% while cutting spending that is mostly used by the bottom 90%, thereby making the inequality that already haunts this country worse. Inequality got worse across Mr. Trump's term. You know, it got worse across Mr. Biden's, too, and Mr. Obama's and Mr. Clinton's and Mr. Bush's. They may argue over culture wars and other details, but when it comes to funding, supporting, encouraging and deepening our capitalist inequality, we don't have two parties. We just have one with two declining wings. It's something to think about. Just like the decision of Mexico to attend the BRICS meeting in Rio de Janeiro is one more step in the economic isolation of the United States, which is the big drama of our time. If only our mass media would dare to show that to our people. Stay with us. We'll be right back with a remarkable interview with cultural analyst Henry Giroux. Before we jump into the second half.

[Charlie]

Of today's show, I wanted to thank.

[Richard Wolff]

You for your very generous response to our fundraising efforts this year and in particular in the last couple of months. And in part responding to that, we are extending the availability of our limited edition, linen covered hardcover version of Understanding Capitalism, the book I wrote and that we have been making available now for quite a while. If you are interested, I will be signing copies of that hardcover and they will be available to you as they have been over the last few weeks. Just simply send an email to [e-mail] and put in the subject line limited edition. We will send you all the information you need to order and receive your copy, signed copy of Understanding Capitalism in its hardback. And thank you again for your kind attention to the fundraising dimension of what we do.

[Charlie]

Welcome back, friends, to the second half of today's Economic Update. I am very pleased, proud and honored to have with us today Professor Henry Giroux. He is at McMaster University in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. There he is the Chair for Scholarship in the Public Interest in the English and Cultural Studies Department and the Paolo Freire Distinguished Scholar in Critical Pedagogy. I have been reading his articles and writings for many years, hoping to bring him onto the program, and I am really pleased that he's doing that. His recent books include Fascism on Education and the Possibility of Democracy, which he co authored with Anthony DiMaggio, and also the Burden of Educating beyond the Veil of Silence. So, first of all, Henry, welcome very much to Economic Update. Thank you very much for sharing your time with us.

[Henry Giroux]

It's a pleasure to be on. Thank you for inviting me.

[Charlie]

All right, let's jump right in. In what sense would you say, given all the work you have done over the years, is there a cultural crisis in capitalism today?

[Henry Giroux]

Well, I think the crisis in capitalism probably began with capitalism. It's not a system that in any way addresses human needs, nor is it concerned about questions of equality or social justice. But I think that what we have seen, particularly since Reagan, is a crisis in which the market has become so powerful that it's indifferent to questions of human needs, indifferent to questions of social values, indifferent to the questions of the commons, of the public good. And it's created a crisis in which it can't legitimate itself anymore. It's beyond legitimation. It no longer says, well, we'll lift everybody else up, that in fact, economic prosperity is just around the corner, that as long as the rich do whatever they want, democracy will prevail. That's now an obvious lie. But what's so important about that is that since it can't legitimate itself anymore, it doesn't make any promises. It now says, well, the problems that we now have are due to blacks. They're due to minorities, they're due to people who are undocumented immigrants. And so it has aligned itself essentially with the culture of fascism. And it has aligned itself in a way in which it's an unbridled fascism. And I think that what we are seeing is we are seeing a culture that in a sense offers no sense of trust, offers no sense of community, a culture that in many ways is driven by greed and corruption. And it does it in a way in which it showcases itself. There's no guilt here anymore. We've seen not only a collapse of conscience, but a collapse of social responsibility. But even worse in some ways is that you can't have a democracy without informed citizens. And I think that what we endlessly see in this culture today under capitalism, under what I call neoliberal fascism, which is a different stage of capitalism. What we now see is we see an attack on the truth, we see an attack on solidarity, we see an attack on political rights, an attack on critical thinking, and we see an attack on all the institutions that make that possible. And that's created a culture of despair. It's created a culture where shared fears replace shared values. It's created a culture basically of death. And I think that that's more than a crisis. It speaks to a moment in an historical formation in which the need for resistance and the need to understand how that culture gets legitimated and. And gets embraced is as necessary as ever.

[Charlie]

Would you say that fascism brought us Trump or that Trump brought us fascism?

[Henry Giroux]

No, I think that Trump is just simply the endpoint of a fascist logic that's been going on in the United States for centuries. I mean, look, we had slavery, we had the elimination of indigenous populations. We had Jim Crow, we've had the internment of the Japanese during World War II. We've had all kinds of incidents in which we see a mounting of the police state and the death of the social state. But what we have really seen in ways that we have never seen before, is we now have white supremacists basically in power. And I think that people often fail to realize that at the heart of the logic of fascism in its updated American forms is a politics of disposability, a politics of racial cleansing, and a politics of the concentration of wealth and inequality. Wealth and power, I'm sorry, in the hands of people unlike anything we have ever seen before, except maybe for the Gilded Age.

[Charlie]

And do you think there is a reaction building? In other words, this, what you've just described, could be expected, I think, unless it's gone beyond that, to provoke or to generate social forces that see that and want to push back against it?

[Henry Giroux]

Well, I think it's gone beyond what we have seen traditionally, because I think now the nature of brutality, of the capitalist state, the scope and depth of the misery that it produces, the fear that. That it's generating, given questions of deportation, questions of abduction. I mean, basically, the police state is in full power mode. And I think in many ways, what we are now seeing is we're seeing it particularly, something you've talked about for years. I mean, particularly the level of inequality is so overwhelming that it now touches people's lives in a way with a scope and an expansiveness that we haven't seen in a long time. And it's going to get much worse. So I think that to the degree that human needs are being denied on a massive scale with the collapse of the social state and the rise of the punishing state. And people hear about the fact that they're going to lose maybe elements of their Social Security, Medicaid is collapsing, political and social rights are being eliminated. I think we're seeing an outburst at a local level all across the country in which people are protesting in some way what they maybe not quite identify as the logics of fascism, and certainly looking for ways to develop anti capitalist values that could translate into something more, more productive. What we see is the emergence of a counter, a revolutionary pedagogical force in the form of multiple protests that now need to come together in a more national form of unity with a more sustaining narrative. And that narrative has to be radical democracy. In my mind.

[Charlie]

Do you see such a coming together? Do you see the seeds or the beginnings or whatever word you would like that this is happening?

[Henry Giroux]

No, I think that, look, the resistance that we're seeing takes different forms. I mean, there are grassroots root movements that are fighting institutional, that are operating on a level of institutional resistance. I mean, teachers are coming together, academics, you know, are under siege in a way like we've never seen before. Hospitals being underfunded. All the basic elements of human needs and that people need to sustain a democracy are under attack. And I think that what we have seen in the past is that the crisis of politics has not been matched by the crisis of ideas. And I think for the first time in a long time, the crisis of ideas are emerging in a way that is in some way compatible with the crisis of politics. And whether we're talking about the Black lives movement or whether we're talking about the crisis, the movements among young people, or whether we're talking about the anti Tesla movement or whether we're talking about the pushback, I mean, look, people are organizing against ice. I mean, people are in the streets preventing these Gestapo thugs from basically abducting people. People are shocked about what's happening to higher end public education. Public education is being defunded because it's dangerous. Higher education is dangerous. Critical thinking is dangerous. And this culture of death dominated by oligarchs doesn't speak to that issue, it just reproduces them. And I think we're seeing a massive implosion and expansion of alternative media forms like your program, which are coming far more important in raising a massive consciousness. And I say this in a very profound way. Without that mass consciousness, without making education central to politics, without, we're doomed. We're Doomed. We can't simply point to economic structures and say, oh, they're oppressive and they're terrible, and they are. But we also have to be serious about what it means to speak to people in a language in which they can recognize themselves. We need to take seriously the fact that pedagogy, that education is not only central to politics, it's absolutely fundamental to politics. Culture is where the war is being waged. And I think if we move into that terrain, wage that war on that level, the next step towards organized resistance will be a lot easier.

[Charlie]

Where does the university as it now exists? You and I and many of the people that watch and listen to this program are products of the American or the Canadian universities. A good number are active in them now as students or now as faculty. What, in your judgment, given the context you've just specified, what's happening to the universities?

[Henry Giroux]

Well, look, since the 1980s, or even much earlier actually, you can talk about Reagan and his attack on public universities as dangerous hotbeds of communism. I'm sure you and I, in our long academic period have been in many universities dominated by communists and mosques.

[Richard Wolff]

Yes.

[Charlie]

I keep wondering where all are. Why have I missed them?

[Henry Giroux]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, if you find five, you're lucky. But I think that the notion that the university is a public good is considered dangerous and fundamentally at odds with neoliberal philosophy has been going on for a long time. But I think that since the 1980s, we have seen a neoliberalization of the university, the corporatization of the university unlike anything we have seen before, and actually most evident in the shift in control away from faculty to basically neoliberal managers and administrators. And I think that what that has done is so emptied the university of any fundamental ability in its workings to basically be a democratic public good and to take seriously its role not only as an enabler and a defender, but an enabler of democracy. The university today is a factory, just like Mario Savio said in the 1960s. But I'll make something clear. It's worse. If the university was basically about providing dumb workers for the global elite, that now has basically been superseded. That's important, but under, of course, people like Musk Desantis in Florida and. And of course, the cult leader. What we have now is universities being turned into centers of indoctrination. I mean, the attack on Harvard, the attack on the Ivy League schools. This is very serious. When the government steps in and says, we will organize the curriculum, we will hire faculty, we will hire admissions, these are not institutions for education. These are institutions for indoctrination. And I think that there are two things to remember here. One is that the attack on universities is really central to the attack on democracy, because the last thing that they want, they want being this partly group of fascist idiots. What they really want is basically to eliminate any possibility for critical thought. Critical thinking is dangerous in an age when. When the President of the United States says he loves the uneducated. Of course he loves the uneducated, and he hates the institutions that make them educated. So I think that faculty have to basically do everything they can to unite, shut down these universities with direct action and reimagine what the mission of the university might be in a democracy. Secondly, it has to be made clear to people who aren't concerned about universities, because maybe their children don't go to them, that if you don't have public education and universities that support the public good, support the commons, and support matters of equality and justice and racial equality, you don't have a democracy. So we're not just talking about education and credentials. We're not just talking about education and critical thinking. We're talking about the possibility of a democracy to thrive with institutions that support the public good. That is absolutely essential.

[Charlie]

Henry, you are wonderful. If I had known that you could condense so much of your work this beautifully, I really. I would have had you on many, many more times. Can I bring you back?

[Henry Giroux]

You bet. Anytime.

[Charlie]

All right. I wish we had more time. We are often out of it, but really, you've been very eloquent and you've gotten it across, and I'm asking my audience now. Let me know what you think. But I would like very much to continue this conversation with you and again in the autumn when we can reconvene.

[Henry Giroux]

Yes.

[Charlie]

Okay. Thank you again. Thank you again, and to all of you, I look forward, as always, to speaking with you again next week.