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- [00:20]
A
Welcome friends to another edition of Economic Update, a weekly program devoted to the economic dimensions of of our lives and those of our children. I'm your host, Richard Wolff. Before we get started, I wanted to remind everyone that there's still time to get on demand access to my latest online course, Marxian Class Analysis, before registration for the upcoming live Q and A recap session at the end of the month with both Professor Azhar and and me. You can find all the details on our website at www.democracyatwork.info classes. I also want to encourage you to sign up for our weekly newsletter where we deliver details on this project and others like it directly to your inbox, as well as a link to view this program and others. We produce updates on ongoing projects and and other organizations we partner with and news of upcoming events, appearances and educational materials that we also produce. Please remember that by liking, subscribing and sharing this vizio with others, you are also partnering with us to reach an ever larger audience. I am very happy and pleased and indeed honored that my guest today, and we're going to run this in the full half hour program without interruption, is someone who you all know, or at least most of you do, and who has been on our show more than a few times over the years. I'm talking about Chris Hedges. You all know who he is. So I'm going to be very brief with my introduction. He's a Pulitzer Prize winning author and journalist who was a foreign correspondent for 15 years for the New York Times. His most recent book is A Genocide Reporting on Survival and Resistance in Occupied Palestine. So first of all, Chris, thank you very much for sharing your time and your expertise with us.
- [02:45]
B
Sure, Rick.
- [02:47]
A
Okay. I want to ask you the bigger, if not the biggest question I can think of. I've been watching your programs, the war in Iran that has occupied many of them and I want to focus on that because that's where my audience is interested and I know yours is as well. And here's the huge question I want to hear you think about out loud. How did the United States, its history, its economics, its culture, let's say Since World War II, bring us finally to this situation we face now where in a way we risk as a nation a really extraordinary defeat?
- [03:43]
B
Yes, I think we've already been defeated, but that's a very good question because it's been a long war on Iran. You could begin it with the overthrow of Mossadegh, the prime minister who sought to and remember at that time this was 1954 or 53, I can't remember. Iran had quite a, a vital and functioning democracy and he sought to seize control of, from British Petroleum of the oil assets. They didn't know how much oil BP was the, that the British, it was maybe called Anglo British Petroleum, I can't remember. But anyway it was British controlled. How much oil that they were taking out of his own country. They got almost no revenue from the extraction of that oil. And that move saw him overthrown in a coup orchestrated by the CIA and British intelligence and the installation of this malleable weak figure, the Shah who did you us bidding. And in fact, I mean the interesting thing is that the Shah had actually fled to Italy and was brought back. And the Shah was a long creation of British and American intelligence. I have a kind of personal connection with that because my father was stationed in Iran in World War II. He was a cryptographer. So he had very, very high security, the highest security clearance possible. In fact he helped code Roosevelt's correspondence in the Tehran conference. And one night he's, he's grabbed by I guess the OSS or Army intelligence or somebody and because he has such high security clearance and taken to a safe house. And there's the kid, the Shah, because they didn't like the father, they overthrew the father in order to maintain the Shoah in power. They along with the Israelis by the way, created one of the most vicious secret or internal security police forces, savak. I mean just absolutely brutal. A terrible repression, you know, in terms of court of its human rights. All of this was sustained by the United States, including turning Iran into the fifth largest military in the world. You saw the Iranian Revolution 1979. That was a coalition by the way. It wasn't only the Ayatollahs. There were Marxist groups, there were labor unions, university students. Yes. Later the other opposition forces were crushed. And then you saw almost immediately the devastating eight year war with Iraq. And we supported Iraq. The French gave the Iraqis military fighter jets. We provided them with chemical weapons. And the Iranians never used chemical weapons by the way, but the Iraqis used them. And there were hundreds of thousands of Iranian casualties. We provided credits the famous Donald Rumsfeld visit to Saddam because we saw essentially this war is effectively being used to break the Iranian regime which in 1979 onwards was hostile to the United States. You had a group called the Mujahideen Al Haq. I mean it was at one time listed as a terrorist group by the United States which predated the revolution. In fact it carried out attacks against the old regime of the Shah, allied itself with Saddam Hussein during the eight year war with Iran and then became a tool of US policy to destabilize the regime. Of course, crippling sanctions. It's been a never ending assault against Iran and we should be clear it has nothing to do with, with its nuclear facilities. And I just want to state, as you know, there is no evidence that they have created either weapons grade material, much less a nuclear weapon. And it's the fact that Iran from 1979 on was an opponent of U.S. you know, military hegemony within the Middle east and, and Israel. And that's why it was and has been targeted for decades and decades has nothing to do with human rights. I mean the human rights record of some of our allies, including in Saudi Arabia and Sisi and Egypt are actually far, far worse than Iran. Even in terms of street killings. I mean Sisi killed to crush the kind of Arab Spring move movement. I think it was 10,000 people in one day, if I have that correct. But that's not to in any way minimize the repression by the Iranian regime. It exists and it's severe and we don't know the numbers but it's probably a good estimate that about 7,000 Iranians in street protests were killed over two days in January. But that's the issue. And then Iran has long had a policy because it fears, and I think correctly fears US attempts to overthrow it of, along its border sustaining regimes, the old Assad regime in Syria, Hezbollah in Lebanon, which is also Shia. Iran is Shia, primarily Shia. It's actually quite a mix of, of, of nationalities and linguistic groups. But only about 60% of Iran is Persian. And I worked in Iran and loved, loved Iran, although had my own problems with the regime. I was once thrown in a jail cell by this popular militia called the Basiji. And then at another time I was deported in handcuffs. So I hardly can be considered an apologist for the Iranian regime. And, and so Iran has, it has been, you know, a target for, you know, even certainly in the last 47 years since the revolution. But Iran has been because of its oil reserves and I think its gas reserves, the second largest in the world. It produces about 12% of the world's oil. It's always been a target of, of U.S. corporate and military interests. Even of course predating 1979.
- [10:58]
A
Well, let me push a little bit further. In a speech, I believe a week or. Well, no, last year, I'm Sorry, Vice President J.D. vance made a famous speech in which he said the following Previous presidents before the current one, Mr. Trump, were, and I'm quoting now, too dumb. D U M B Too dumb to do in Iran what the current President is going to do, solve that problem once and for all. And more words along that line, a full throated endorsement of what Mr. Trump and the Israelis have been doing June of last year and now again the last 45 days. So his analysis has no depth. He seems to think he has said something when he has accused a dozen presidents for from being dumb, whatever exactly that means. And yet the irony is, given everything you've said, and if I take you literally, that it's not a defeat in the making, but a defeat already made, how do we account in a serious way for the United States not to have learned from all those years and all those efforts and all that history not to do what may be the undoing of this empire?
- [12:48]
B
Well, the Israelis in particular, Netanyahu has been pushing the United States to go to war with Iran for four decades. That's not new. If you remember several years ago, he went before the UN had held up this little drawing of a bomb and said, you know, they're almost ready to create nuclear material and produce a bomb. And that's always been the line. But the Pentagon has, for reasons that are now obvious, refused quite adamantly. So whether it was Biden or Obama or Bush, they have absolutely or recognize that an attack such as the Trump administration carried out would result in what it has resulted in, which is the seizure of the Strait of Hormuz by Iran. Now, remember, before this conflict, ships, tankers had free passage through the Strait of Hormuz. Now, not only is it all bottled up because the United States has violated the ceasefire agreement by seizing Iranian ships and prompting Iran after one day to reclose the Strait of Hormuz, but any tankers that do get out are charged the equivalent of $2 million. But not in dollars, it's in the Chinese currency, because this is also part of the attempt by Russia, China, Iran to sever the global economy from the tyranny of the American dollar. So all of the goals that were set out by the Trump administration were not. Did not, did not, were not achievable, were not achieved. So that was the shutting down of its nuclear program, the stopping of the arming of Hezbollah and the Houthis in Yemen, blocking its ballistic missile program and regime change, none of it worked. So on all of the four major points, they've lost. Now, the issue is the Strait of Hormuz, because of course, Iran has A stranglehold on the global economy. It's already creating devastating effects. And in countries like India, Japan has had to release its strategic reserves. About 90% of the oil that Japan depends on goes through the Strait of Hormuz. But those numbers are also about the equivalent for South Korea, for Indonesia, for India. I mean, these countries are really getting hammered. And there will be a kind of global effect, of course. And this asymmetrical warfare that Iran waged proved highly effective, including taking out the sophisticated radar systems that the United States had positioned. Some of those systems, by the way, cost about a billion dollars, and they take them out with relatively cheap drones, carrying out significant damage. It's classified, so we're kind of, you know, groping in the dark, but it appears fairly significant damage on US Military installations. This war was. None of our GCC allies in the Gulf were consulted, although they've paid a horrific price. They weren't consulted, just like our allies in Europe were not consulted. So Trump is in a really terrible situation. And let's be clear, by the way, Israel wants the war to continue. This is just. This defeat is catastrophic for Israel. Israel sees Iran as an existential threat. You can argue whether it isn't or isn't. I don't think it is, but. But certainly in the Israeli mindset, it is. And that is why they have continued to pound Lebanon. One of the preconditions for the ceasefire was, of course, and I think justifiably so, the Iranians said, well, we won't carry out attacks on your allies in the Gulf, but you have to stop attacks and against our allies, especially Hezbollah in Lebanon. And Israel is, is. Is doing everything they can to sabotage the agreement, because what they want to do to Iran is turn it into a failed state, the same way they've done in Syria. And we're watching them destroy Lebanon as. As we speak. Iraq was as splintered into factious entities, Kurdish and about 60% of Iraqi, Shia and Sunni. That is Israel's goal. And if they can't change the regime, they'll just carpet bomb Iranian cities, Iranian oil installations, Iranian infrastructure, including water desalination plants. But, I mean, this is just suicidal because Iran, the best estimate is that they still have significant stockpiles of military, maybe half of their ballistic missiles, as well as drones. And that desalination issue is not small, because I think Israel depends on about four or five desalination plants, and Israel's a small country. And let's not forget that Russia and China provided satellite intelligence to the Iranians, which is why their strikes were so devastatingly precise. You have cities in Saudi Arabia like riyadh, I think, 100% dependent on desalinated water. Take those desalination plants out, and you're talking about a catastrophic crisis, not just an economic crisis, but a human crisis. And let me, just, before I stop, throw in that this war has created within Iran, although some may be going back. 3 million displaced people. Let's not forget the 2 million displaced Palestinians in Gaza and another 1 million, that's a fifth of the population in Lebanon. So these are seismic dislocations, seismic trauma, seismic catastrophe that has already been visited throughout the Middle East. And Trump does not know how to get out of it. He's got the Israeli and the Israel lobby pushing him on one side, and then on the other side, he is flirting with catastrophic economic catastrophe. I mean, if this is not resolved, we're already hitting in many countries, I think we could say a recession. You're the economist, but you're really flirting with a global depression unlike anything we've seen going back to the 20s.
- [19:38]
A
Chris, as an observer, my mind reels at the thought that, is this the way this empire is going to end? That it could not understand the limits of its own reach and power. It could not imagine the closing of the Strait of Hormuz, what the Iranians said they would do. It didn't take a detective to figure it out. It was an obvious ploy, and it shows the world in the most dramatic way. I mean, there are the Straits of Malacca. There is that passageway that the Houthis can control in the Red Sea. I mean, I could go on. Many parts of the world are being given a training course in how to use their role. Their moment within a global economy created by American capitalism as much as by anything else, is now coming back with its extended supply chains to haunt the very system that created it. In a kind of Hegelian contradiction explosion My question to you is, am I reading right? How do you see the reverse? Not how the United States got itself into this horrific defeat, but how that defeat is going to react back upon the United States to change it.
- [21:24]
B
Well, either the United States accepts the defeat and Iran has very clear conditions. The lifting of primary and secondary sanctions, some kind of promise, UN Security Council or something else that says that there will be no more attacks on Iran. The country has been attacked twice in the last year. Reparations for the damage that has been caused by the Israeli and Americans. The unfreezing of Iranian assets estimated about $100 billion. These are our preconditions. And the United States, these are very bitter pills for the United States to swallow. Either they're going to accept them or Iran will carry out this assault on the global economy. Now, remember, you got about 20% of the oil and natural gas, and then you have all the derivatives, fertilizer and heat, helium and aluminum and everything else. So it's not just fossil fuels. So the Saudis, through their pipeline, are able to divert and ship oil out through the Red Sea. But as you mentioned, if the Houthis shut down the Bab El Mandab, which is again, a very narrow strait, much like the Strait of Hormuz, then nothing's getting out. Nothing's going to get out. And at that point, the global economy probably pretty quickly starts to go into a very serious tailspin. This was a catastrophic mistake, one that Trump should not have had the power to make. I mean, this is, again illustrative of the collapse of our democratic institutions. Congress makes war. Congress was never consulted. Most of his intelligence, from all we can tell from the New York Times reporting, I think all of his intelligence with. Let's skip Hegseth. But his military and intelligence chiefs, including Kaine, warned about the closing of the Strait of Hormuz. And Bibi Netanyahu, who kind of tricked Trump into doing this, said, well, no, we'll take out the Supreme Leader, the regime, everybody will come to the straits, they'll overthrow the ayatollahs, and they won't close the Strait of Hormuz. It'll all be over in a weekend. And Trump was stupid enough to fall for it. I mean, this is how empires die. How did the British Empire die? It kept funneling its youth into the maws of German machine guns at the Somme and Verdun and everything else. You know, they never learned. They were too obtuse and stupid, and they were finished much through the same kind of stupidity. Haig being a very limited figure like Trump, he was the chief of the General Staff of the British Army. So, yeah, that's how empires die. They are captured by callous, amoral buffoons. You know, the history of the Roman Empire is no different. Nero Caligula, all these figures, commodious. And, yeah, that's how we die, too. This really does have the potential if it's not resolved. And I don't see it being resolved. I mean, there is no ceasefire. Don't use the word ceasefire. It's not. A ceasefire would mean that the preconditions for the ceasefire, which is opening the Strait of Hormuz and the United States not carrying out aggressive acts in terms of seizing Iranian tankers would not be going on. And of course, there would be no bombing of Lebanon. So. So this is not a ceasefire. We haven't even gotten there, much less to the incredibly complex and difficult negotiations that would be required to extract ourself from this conflict. And who's in charge of it? His son in law, who, of course has received billions of dollars in his investment firm from Saudi Arabia, and the Saudis are mortal enemies of Iran. And his golfing partner, Steve Witkoff. I mean, it's. You can't make this stuff up. And let's also be clear, Wyckoff and Kushner, these guys are Zionist assets, they're Israeli assets.
- [25:44]
A
Is it possible, and here I want your opinion, just as an American thinker, is it possible that Mr. Trump will be able, given everything you've said, to do what he is frequently famous for, which is doubling down when he's made a terrible mistake in the hopes of kind of bullying his way through? Could he unleash some kind of military activity on Iran in some desperate effort which won't work and will make the empire yet again weaker?
- [26:31]
B
Yeah, I think that is, I worry that that is probably the likely scenario if they. You know, let's be clear that Trump has no concept of Iran. He doesn't know anything about Iran. His whole worldview is colored by, you know, very repugnant kind of racism. Iran is not Lebanon. Iran is not Yemen. Iran is not even Iraq. Iran is a country of 92 million people, the size of Western Europe. And the Iranians, I think this conflict has shown, have learned, especially after the 12 days of attacks last June, exactly how to fight back. Decentralized command. Their ballistic missiles are buried deep underground. That's why when there are pictures of them, you see clouds of dust, which the Israeli and American Air Force have not been able to get at. No, I do worry that he's impulsive, he's ignorant. He by his nature is a bully. You know, a belief that violence, threats, force, will bend everyone, including the rest of the world, to his will. And let's not forget also that we are now very isolated. Our allies in Europe and in the Gulf are really furious. And because many of them are paying the consequences of this, we'll all pay it, but they particularly are paying it now. And Trump doesn't bother to inform them, consult them, or take their interests into account. So that has further isolated the United States, not just globally, but within the region. And I think yes. That is, given Trump's character and given the heavy lobbying that will come from Israel and the Israel lobby, that is a distinct possibility. But at that point, then we're in really, really serious trouble, because the fact is, Iran holds all the cards. Yes. I'm not saying they haven't been punished in terms of the bombing campaign, in terms of their infrastructure, but imagine taking out the oil facilities on Kharg Island. I mean, you would think, given the pressure on the global economy, if they were rational in the White House, that they would want Iranian oil on the market. So we're dealing with highly inept, impulsive, ignorant people in the Trump administration, unfortunately, have almost unilateral control over the largest military in the world. It's a very, very bad combination.
- [29:23]
A
Thank you very much, Chris. It's exactly what I had hoped for. I hope you don't mind that we picked your brain and let you not at all do this. And thanks again for coming on the program, and I hope to be working with you again soon. And to all my audience, as usual, I look forward to speaking with you again next week.