Economic Update with Richard D. Wolff

Episode Title: Christianity Split: Love VS Hate
Date: December 2, 2025
Guest: John Fugelsang, comedian, author, and host

Overview

This episode of Economic Update with Richard D. Wolff explores the complex intersection of economics, politics, and religion, focusing specifically on the divisions within Christianity—particularly between fundamentalist “Christian nationalism” and the teachings of Jesus centered on love, compassion, and social justice. The discussion, featuring guest John Fugelsang (author of "Separation of Church and: A Sane Person's Guide to Taking Back the Bible from Fundamentalists, Fascists, and Flock Fleecing Frauds"), delves into how different versions of Christianity align with or challenge prevailing economic systems like capitalism and why these splits matter in contemporary America.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Starbucks Strike & Worker Struggles

• [04:52]–[08:44]

  • Wolff discusses the ongoing Starbucks workers' strike and its symbolic significance.
  • He emphasizes how Starbucks started with a community-focus but, succumbing to capitalist pressures, shifted towards prioritizing profit—leading to worker dissatisfaction and eventual industrial action.
  • Noteworthy political support (e.g., Bernie Sanders, AOC, Zoran Mamdani) for workers is highlighted, contrasting with the silence of mainstream politicians.

  Notable Quote:

  “There’s a reason capitalism is coming under attack. Criticism, rejection, and nothing illustrates it more than the history of Starbucks.”
  — Richard D. Wolff [08:28]

2. Tariffs, Deficits, and Political Theater

• [08:44]–[14:25]

  • Examination of Trump-era tariffs and their inadequacy in addressing U.S. deficits and debt.
  • Wolff details how politicians avoid taxing the wealthy and corporations by borrowing from them instead—shifting the real financial burden to the populace.
  • The recurring pattern of political maneuvers prioritizing donors over public welfare is sharply critiqued.

  Notable Quote:

  “This is Flim flam man. And I know many of you have stopped listening to what he has to say. I understand why, but it's important to understand he didn't do anything to really deal with our national debt in his first presidency. And he isn't doing it either in this second. Just like Biden didn't and the people before him didn't.”
  — Richard D. Wolff [13:02]

3. The Split Within Christianity: Love vs. Power

• [17:18]–[29:06]

  • Discussion opens with the fundamental split within Christianity:
    • Fundamentalist/Nationalist Christianity: Literalism, power, alignment with political and economic hierarchies, and enforcement of "God’s will" through authority.
    • Teachings-of-Jesus Christianity: Emphasis on compassion, humility, peace, solidarity with the marginalized, and a focus on love and justice.
  • Fugelsang traces how historical power structures consistently co-opt Christianity to justify violence, colonization, slavery, and authoritarianism—opposite to Christ’s original teachings.
  • Examples: Crusades, colonization, slavery, anti-labor stances, and current political alignments.

  Notable Quote:

  “They worship Jesus, they don’t follow him. They fight for Jesus, they don’t listen to him.”
  — John Fugelsang [22:39]

  Memorable Moment:
  Fugelsang outlines how Jesus' actual teachings are about caring for the poor, welcoming strangers, rejecting greed, and advocating for peace—contrasting sharply with the actions of those wielding Christianity for power.

4. Christianity’s Relationship to Economic Systems

• [23:20]–[28:25]

  • Wolff asks why fundamentalist Christians so often support capitalism and existing economic hierarchies.
  • Fugelsang’s analysis:
    • The status quo shapes religion more than vice versa.
    • Christianity (especially in its fundamentalist forms) adapts to support whatever economic order is in power—feudalism, slavery, industrial capitalism, and so on.
    • Capitalism and fundamentalism functionally align: Both rely on hierarchy, obedience, and justifying the suffering of the poor.
    • The "prosperity gospel" and anti-union, anti-redistribution stances serve as tools of social control, encouraging acceptance of inequality as "God’s plan."

  Notable Quote:

  “…Capitalism and fundamentalism don’t match theologically, but functionally they work together perfectly… Fundamentalism is against labor organizing, against questioning authority… It encourages viewing inequality as God’s plan… Blaming the poor for being poor. That’s what they do to this day.”
  — John Fugelsang [25:14]

5. Why the Working Class Buys In

• [27:13]–[28:25]

  • Many working class people accept fundamentalist Christianity because:
    • Biblical stories are taught as simplistic narratives, not as radical social teachings.
    • The Cold War fused American identity with capitalism, Christianity, and anti-communism.
    • Fundamentalism has been a reliable tool for those in power across systems, from feudalism to fascism.

  Notable Quote:

  “We teach children these stories before they’re old enough to understand any what they mean... The Cold War married Christianity to capitalism in this country because capitalism and Christianity and anti-communism were all braided together as a single identity.”
  — John Fugelsang [27:20]

6. Is This Movement Growing or Shrinking?

• [29:06]–[34:02]

  • Fugelsang shares his personal history and argues that growing numbers of Americans are “spiritual but not religious” because they’re repulsed by the hypocrisy and cruelty of modern organized religion.
  • He believes that there is a movement, not heard in mainstream media, of people (including atheists and ex-religious) who recognize the disconnect between Jesus’ teachings and the authoritarian, nationalist power structures that claim his name.
  • The media and political establishments fail to challenge these structures, leaving it to individuals and grassroots efforts to reclaim the true spirit of Jesus’ teachings.

  Memorable Moment:
  Fugelsang’s book becomes a bestseller without mainstream media coverage, demonstrating latent demand for an alternative Christian message grounded in love and justice.

  Notable Quote:

  “I believe that the largest growing religious group in this country are people who were raised religious but now consider themselves spiritual because they’re turned off by all this hypocrisy and cruelty by so much of organized religion… Hate is not a Christian value. Whether you believe in this stuff literally or not.”
  — John Fugelsang [29:37; 33:50]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 04:52 – Starbucks Strike & Capitalism’s Cycles
• 08:44 – Trump’s Tariffs, Tax System Dysfunction
• 17:18 – Introduction of John Fugelsang; Division in Christianity
• 22:39 – Fundamentalism vs. Christ’s Teachings (“They worship Jesus, they don’t follow him…”)
• 23:59 – Christianity’s Endorsement of Capitalism Explained
• 25:14 – Functional Alliance between Capitalism & Fundamentalist Christianity
• 27:20 – Cultural and Historical Roots of Working Class Alignment
• 29:37 – Emergence of “Spiritual but not Religious” Americans
• 33:50 – The Movement Against Authoritarian Christianity

Notable Quotes

• Richard D. Wolff [08:28]:
  “There’s a reason capitalism is coming under attack. Criticism, rejection, and nothing illustrates it more than the history of Starbucks.”

• John Fugelsang [22:39]:
  “They worship Jesus, they don’t follow him. They fight for Jesus, they don’t listen to him.”

• John Fugelsang [25:14]:
  “…Capitalism and fundamentalism don’t match theologically, but functionally they work together perfectly…”

• John Fugelsang [29:37]:
  “The largest growing religious group in this country are people who were raised religious but now consider themselves spiritual because they’re turned off by all this hypocrisy and cruelty…”

• John Fugelsang [33:50]:
  “Hate is not a Christian value. Whether you believe in this stuff literally or not.”

Tone & Takeaways

• The episode’s tone is simultaneously analytical, passionate, and accessible. Wolff provides incisive economic critique, while Fugelsang uses wit, personal history, and deep cultural knowledge to shed light on why Christianity—and by extension, American society—is so deeply divided along economic and moral lines.
• Listeners are left with the sense that reclaiming the essence of Jesus’ message—love, justice, compassion—is not only possible but urgently needed as an antidote to both economic and social injustice.

For those who haven’t listened:
This episode is a rich exploration of how religion can either serve as an instrument of power and exclusion, or as a radical call to love and justice—directly engaging with the political and economic realities of our time. The conversation between Wolff and Fugelsang provides historical depth, clear-eyed critique, and genuine hope for the possibility of reclaiming ethical and humane values in public life.