A (4:52)

But then the business end of all of this nice story crawled in, as it always does when you try to make a business out of a passion.

A (5:07)

And capitalism has its own rules. You can't run the business just the way you might like to. If you're going to succeed, and then you're going to grow and then you're going to issue shares of stock and then you're going to make deals with banks and all of the rest of it. You end up playing by the rules of the system.

A (5:31)

There's almost a kind of life cycle here. As you do that, it becomes the usual part of capitalism called the class struggle. The fight between the employer on the one hand and the employee on the other. The employer has to make the bottom line, the profit. That's how you keep your shareholders and your bankers happy.

A (5:59)

And so you squeeze your workers to get more profit. You pay them a little less, you work them a little harder. You cut a corner here, you cut a corner there, and pretty soon, yeah, the work at that place doesn't become so attractive. The vibes aren't so good, the feelings aren't so warm.

A (6:20)

Maybe you haven't noticed it, but I certainly have. Starbucks are less present and every other little coffee shop is doing pretty well. Why? Because they're in the earlier stage. They're still making an atmosphere that Starbucks can't afford. And now the last chapter. The workers say, that's not why we came to work here. That's not a reasonable way of treating a. And they're right. Of course, they're absolutely right. The only interesting thing is why it took them this long. And so there are strikes.

A (6:59)

Somewhere between 50 and 100 stores out of many hundreds are on strike across America during the holiday season. To make the point, the company has stalled in negotiations. It doesn't want to meet with the Workers United, which is their union. They filed over a thousand unfair labor practice complaints with the government playing by the rules, and they're asking for all of our support. And I want to notice, because it's an important change in our politics, that three politicians have made clear their support. Bernie Sanders, Alexandra Ocasio Cortez, and most recently, Zoran Mamdani. Yeah, they've come out in support of the workers on strike at Starbucks. Your regular politician, you know, the ones who think they have some claim on your vote, they're remarkably neutral and silent. They have nothing to say.

A (8:11)

If I've missed anybody, my apologies. There may be politicians, and I haven't seen what they've done, but Zoran Mamdani here in New York City has made his support crystal clear.

A (8:28)

Look, there's a reason capitalism is coming under attack. Criticism, rejection, and nothing illustrates it more than the history of Starbucks.

A (8:44)

I want to turn next to Trump's tariffs. I know it's a perennial topic, and maybe you're sick and tired of it, but there are lessons here we just cannot afford to miss.

A (8:58)

First, I want to give you the facts about the tariffs. One of the purposes of the tariffs.

A (9:06)

Had to do with dealing with the fact that the United States government runs deficits. It spends more money than it raises in taxes. And when it does that, and when it refuses to tax corporations and the rich who've seen their obligations in taxes shrink over the last century, with the burden of taxes moved onto you and me, the working class par for the course of how capitalism works, what governments have done, unable or unwilling to go after corporations and the rich, they're donors, after all, by taxing them. Instead, they go to those same people and borrow the money and claim to be doing something good. It isn't good. It just postpones.

A (10:03)

The inevitable. And now the inevitable has come. And I don't want to blame Mr. Trump. He inherited that. He didn't do anything to stop it. He didn't solve it the way he promised in his first campaign, his first presidency. And now we are supposed to believe he's going to do something with the tariffs? They're raising money. Okay? They're raising. There are tax. That's what a tariff is. So it is bringing money in. He's right about that. But is it a solution to these problems he inherited of an enormous debt? And the answer is a resounding and unequivocal no.

A (10:46)

Here we go. To date, or at least to the end of September, tariffs raised $195 billion.

A (10:56)

That'S 118 billion more than last year. So with all the hoopla we've got an extra $118 billion. Keep the number in your head as of the end of September. What's the size of the deficit this year? 2 trillion.

A (11:20)

118 billion is what he raised above what was last year when we didn't have tariffs. And he's got to do much, much, much more than that to get near to ending the deficit. And what is our national debt? The total? $37 trillion. Maybe 38 by the time I'm finished speaking today. 38 trillion is the debt and 118 million is what he's raised in tariffs through the end of September.

A (11:59)

This is what he's done. This is the problem. Lots of theater, lots of public relations.

A (12:08)

Tariffs and we're bringing him in. It's all fake.

A (12:15)

But the fake is actually worse. He's in such political trouble that one of his big ideas recently was he's going to give a check for $2,000.

A (12:29)

He's calling it a tariff dividend. I've raised so much money, I'm going to give it. Well if he give it back, then there won't be any left to take down the deficit or the debt. You can't do both of these things. This is Flim flam man. And I know many of you have stopped listening to what he has to say. I understand why, but it's important to understand he didn't do anything to really deal with our national debt in his first presidency. And he isn't doing it either in this second. Just like Biden didn't and the people before him didn't. Because for the politicians in this country they they found the easy way forward. Don't tax corporations and the rich because they won't donate money to you and you won't be elected. Don't tax the mass of people much more because they won't vote for you one way or the other. You lose solution. Go to those rich people and say I won't tax you but lend me the money. That way I have to pay you back. You're happy, you don't lose the money. I and we pay you interest while you wait to be repaid. Isn't that better than taxes? Uh huh. That's how our system works. And then don't be surprised when it blows up when the day comes and no one lends any more to the United States government because of the fear that the mass of people won't let the government pay when it's a question of paying the creditors, those rich people you dared not tax rather than providing food, clothing, shelter, education and everything that the people need. That's where we are now. That's why things look like there are walls closing in on everybody.

A (14:25)

It's a very serious problem. Not just when you have a government lost in scandals of pedophilia. It's at least as important when they've run out of the gambit that holds the thing together. And that's where we are. We've come to the end of the first half of today's show. Please stay with us. We have a very important interview coming up on the whole role of Christianity, its different interpretations and how that relates to an economy in deep trouble. Stay with us. We'll be right back.

A (15:12)

Before we jump into the second half of today's show, I wanted to thank you for your very generous response to our fundraising efforts this year and in particular in the last couple of months. And in part responding to that, we are extending the availability of our limited edition, linen covered hardcover version of Understanding Capitalism, the book I wrote and that we have been making available now for quite a while. If you are interested, I will be signing copies of that hardcover and they will be available to you as they have been over the last few weeks. Just simply send an email to us@infodemocracyatwork.info and put in the subject line limited edition. We will send you all the information you need to order and receive your copy signed copy of Understanding Capitalism in its hardback. And thank you again for your kind attention to the fundraising dimension of what we do. Welcome back, friends, to the second half of today's Economic update. I am very glad to bring to our microphones and our cameras John Fugelsang. He is a remarkable fellow that I've come to know a little bit about after he was recommended to us by many of you as someone we ought to bring onto the show. He's the author of the New York Times bestseller Separation of Church and A Sane Person's Guide to Taking Back the Bible from Fundamentalists, Fascists and Flock Fleecing Frauds. I was careful to try to say that.

B (17:18)

Very nice professor, Very well done without mangling it.

A (17:23)

He hosts the popular Tell Me Everything show on SiriusXM channel 127 and has made many appearances on CNN, MSNBC and Fox News. He's been killed on CSI, picketed by Westboro Baptist Church, and once got George Harrison to give his last live performance on VH1. So it is with pleasure that I welcome, comedian, but also, as good comedians have always been, philosopher and friend. John, welcome to the show.

B (18:05)

Professor, what an introduction. How do I live up to that? Thank you so much.

A (18:09)

You're welcome. All right. I presume from my historical studies, I've been teaching history a long time that the Christian religion, like most religion, has had multiple interpretations, and that has gone through many periods when these interpretations were at war with one another. More or less peacefully. More or less not so peacefully. So I want you to tell us, has that been true of Christianity and particular here in the United States, but beyond, if you want, is there a war going on inside Christianity which might help us understand the title of your book?

B (18:57)

Yes, sir, I think there always has been. But I don't think it's ever really expressed itself in the form of a war. It's actually an ongoing struggle for awareness. But I think when you look at the history of Christianity, there really are two schools. There's fundamentalist Christianity or Christian nationalist Christianity that tends to be the type that interprets all scripture as being literal, inerrant, the 100 proof word of God that America has a divine mission, that we need political power to enforce God's will in this world. It's usually about hierarchy and patriarchy and nationalism. It's about being the defenders of God's truth in a corrupt world, fundamentalism. And then you've got the people who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, which is a whole different crew. And that's the folks who think that you have to interpret scripture with nuance and historical context, that you've got to focus Christianity around the actual teachings of Jesus, who was all about compassion and humility and justice and peace and solidarity with the marginalized. The Jesus of the Bible is someone who commands individuals and nations to care for the poor and sick, commands individuals and nations to welcome the stranger, commands individuals and nations in Matthew 25 to be caring and kind to those in prison, says, pay your taxes, bans the death penalty, never mentions abortion, never mentions being cruel to gay people. And the Christ followers throughout history have tended to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. So it's been these two struggles you've had the fundamentalism, which is all about power. And from the time of the Roman Empire, when they took over Christianity, it stopped being about the humble, brown skinned, Jewish, homeless, mystic, faith healer who hung around the poor neighborhoods of Galilee. And it became about power. It became about doing the opposite of everything Jesus teaches for Jesus. So once Rome takes over, we have the Crusades. Jesus who says, turn the other cheek, don't commit any acts of violence, love your enemy or. Well, now we're slaughtering. The Church is slaughtering Jews and Muslims and pagans, but we're doing it for Jesus. And that began the tradition, the doctrine of discovery. The Pope says, go forth and spread the word of Jesus and go ahead and subdue native populations and take their resources. Columbus is slaughtering the Taino people in the shadow of the cross. And once again, you see, Christianity is used just for power. But throughout history, whenever this is done, there have always been the Christ followers. So in the Crusades, you've got St. Francis renouncing violence and walking unarmed through a war zone to have peace talks, while Columbus is slaughtering the Taino people and raping them and mutilating them all under the shadow of the cross. It was the Catholic priest on his third voyage. Bartolomeo de Las Casas committed maybe the first act of protest by a white person in this hemisphere and wrote back to the Queen objecting to Columbus's cruel subjugation of the indigenous folks. Slavery was propped up by Christianity and it was Christ followers like Frederick Douglass and Harriet Tubman and the Quakers who resisted, go through segregation, go through Nazis. Every time you'll see these Christians aligning with power. The opposite of Jesus who stood up to Caesar. But whenever Christianity is aligning with Caesar, you know it's going to be the opposite of what the character of Jesus talks about in the book. And that to this day is the defining struggle in the faith. The power hungry ones who get behind Donald Trump and enact an agenda that has nothing to do with the actual teachings of Jesus. On immigration alone, one must reject the God of the Hebrew scriptures and Jesus of the New Testament to support Donald Trump's agenda. They worship Jesus, they don't follow him, they fight for Jesus, they don't listen to him. And I wrote this book for anyone who was raised in this religion of love, be they atheist or non Christian or anyone who has to deal with one of these Christian nationalists on how to use the Bible when debating these folks because they support their own power. They fight for conservative Christian dominance of society. They don't fight for any of the stuff Jesus talked about.

A (23:10)

Well, you know, that leads me to my next question, which is a perennial issue for our program.

B (23:17)

Please.

A (23:20)

How does this struggle inside Christianity that you've just wonderfully summarized for us, how does it deal with the economy? When you have in the economy, on the one hand, employers with an extraordinary power to give or take a job, to give or take income, wielding power over the multitude of employees. That is all one directional. The employees don't elect them, do not control them, are worried always about losing their job.

A (23:59)

That has always led folks to ask me the question, as a professional economist, why is it that the fundamentalist Christians seem to be endorsing or often make it very explicit that capitalism is wonderful, that the employer is the king, is the positive element and the employee should be the grateful recipient of the largesse of the. Why is there this connection?

B (24:33)

The corporate capitalism? Yeah, it's insidious. We have to understand first off that the status quo has always shaped religion more than the religion has shaped the status quo. This was true in medieval Europe and it's true now in modern America. Christianity has a long history of adapting to whatever was the dominant economic order. So in the Middle Ages, Christianity justified feudalism because it's all about hierarchy and obedience and kings are chosen by God. In the colonial era, Christianity was used to justify the transatlantic slave trade. In the industrial era, Christianity was all about the gospel of the self made man. Even while workers were living in Dickensian hellscapes. And corporate Christianity propped all this up. But it was the Christ followers like Dorothy Day and the Catholic Worker movement that fought for a five day work week and an end to child labor. I mean, Christianity always adapts to whatever economic order holds political power. Right? But fundamentalism thrives under capitalism because capitalism teaches obedience, not liberation. Look at Jesus. Solidarity with the poor, redistribution of wealth. That's. Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's. He's endorsing paying taxes for the government to redistribute. Total rejection of greed. Condemning those who hoard wealth, refusing to worship money. Right. That's Jesus. Capitalism is the opposite. Competition, there's a hierarchy, reward for more accumulation. Scarcity is an incentive and, and those values totally clash with Jesus. But they align really well with authoritarian Christianity because it's top down obedience. A theology that romanticizes suffering, the idea that poverty is divine discipline or personal failure. Your suffering is because God doesn't like you as much. So capitalism and fundamentalism don't match theologically, but functionally they work together perfectly. And that's what this prosperity gospel nonsense is all about. And capitalism can use fundamentalism as a social control mechanism. Right? Fundamentalism is against labor organizing, against questioning authority, against redistribution, against critiquing economic structures. It's against challenging elites, but it encourages morality over systemic justice. Right. It encourages viewing inequality as God's plan. Right. Blaming the poor for being poor. That's what they do to this day. So Fundamentalism protects the status quo by making suffering spiritualized. And that's how they blaspheme all over the place. Because again their only religion is power. They don't give a damn about the stuff the Nazarene commanded.

A (27:13)

And why have so many working class people then bought into it?

B (27:19)

Well it tends to be because we don't really read the Bible too much. We teach children these stories before they're old enough to understand any what they mean. We teach children the Bible stories and we focus on what the manger and the miracles and the cross, not the three years this guy spent teaching and preaching and saying what a Christian nation would actually have to do to earn that kind of label. We can talk about all of Jesus's miracles, but most of us aren't raised to focus on his teachings which are as threatening to authoritarian structures now as they were 2,000 years ago. And the Cold war married Christianity to capitalism in this country because capitalism and Christianity and anti communism were all braided together as a single identity. And Billy Graham and they all did this, they would have national rallies, anti union, anti welfare, pro corporate, pro military, all patriarchy. Fundamentalism has always been a tool for the powerful no matter what the system. Feudal lords used it to justify serfdom, colonizers used it to justify slavery and land theft, capitalists use it to justify work.

B (28:25)

And dictators from Pinnaceda Hitler have used Christianity that justify fascism.

A (28:29)

You know, it's remarkable listening to you. Let me ask you a question which has to be asked, please. Is the perspective you are articulating, is that something growing here in the United States now? Is it shrinking? Is it a stasis that isn't moving much either way? How would you characterize the struggle that everything you've been telling us talks about? What's the state of the struggle now here in the United States as far as you can see?

B (29:06)

Well, I wrote this book because my mother was a nun before she married. My mother was a nurse who worked with lepers in Malawi, Africa. My father was a Franciscan brother, he taught history to Catholic boys in Brooklyn. Both my parents took vows to God that I would never happen. And they fell in love and broke their vows and got married. And I was raised to believe that Christianity was about the stuff Jesus talked about, right? Going to the margins, helping the less fortunate, servant leadership, humility. He was not about total right wing domination of the school board or the political system. And everywhere I go Professor, I've talked to so many folks who were raised in this culture of love and empathy and Feel like the religion's been hijacked by all of these blow dry televangelists and ex segregationists and crypto fascists and that the movement that they were raised in about love and empathy is kind of lost. It's all about domination and control. So I wrote this book because I think that the largest growing religious group in the country, they like to say it's Islam or that it's Mormons or maybe even none of the aboves. But I believe that the largest growing religious group in this country are people who were raised religious but now consider themselves spiritual because they're turned off by all this hypocrisy and cruelty by so much of organized religion. And people aren't leaving the church in droves because of Jesus or God or Santa Claus or Noah's Ark. They're leaving because of the meanness and cruelty and hypocrisy that's out there. Young people don't go for this homophobia stuff. Young people don't go for all of this authoritarian and patriarchal nonsense. I mean, some guys always will. But for me, I wanted to write a book about what Jesus actually says versus what does unauthorized fan clubs do? Because I just feel like we know they're wrong. And I wanted to have a book of all the arguments right wing Christianity uses to justify their anti Jesus support of the death penalty, or their anti Jesus support of these cruel immigration policies, or their anti Jesus support of an economy that puts the wealthy first and the marginalized last. They're all been suckered. I try to attack those in power, Professor. I try not to go after working class suckers unless they're especially mean and racist. I try to go after the power structures. And I spent 13 years pitching this book and having, having publishers and agents say to me, wait, it's a book for believers and non believers alike. What atheists and Christians about how to deal with fundamentalists. I don't deal with fundamentalists in my life. Well, now we see what's happened, right? I mean, extreme conservative religious people aligning themselves with authoritarian power is literally what killed Jesus and it's literally what brought us Trump. And it's against everything the character of Jesus ever talks about, whether you believe in him as a real thing or not. So to finally have this book come out, Professor, I'll wrap it with this. The first week we were released was the same week that Mr. Kirk was horrifically murdered in Utah. And Mr. Kirk was not a fan of mine. We tussled several times, but every corporate media appearance canceled me that week because I got a book about how to take down Christian nationalists with nonviolence in scripture and humor. And now the most famous Christian nationalist was just taken out with a bullet like the day after my book release. So all my mainstream media appearances canceled, right? All the cable news, which is understandable. We still made the New York Times bestseller list the first two weeks with no corporate media presence at all. Which tells me that there is an audience for this, but you'll never hear it on mainstream media. So if the success of this book tells me anything, it's that there is a movement out there of people, including atheists who were raised religious or no longer religious, but they know the religion well enough to know that this Trumpism ain't it. And what passes for right wing Christianity in the Republican Party has nothing to do with this brown skinned homeless Nazarene. So to me it's all about taking down the BS and the whole history of Christianity, as I said, it's been power using Christianity for unchristlike ends. And then the Jesus followers and their allies, often non Christians, Jews, secular organizers working together to beat back the crazy Christians. That's the whole history of the faith. That's what it is now still. And I just wanted to amplify the fact that these people don't fight for Christ. They don't fight for God, they don't fight against Satan, they don't care about religious freedom. They say it all the time. They fight for conservative Christian power and control. The media is never going to talk about this. The media is never going to say, excuse me, Vice President Pence, where in your holy book does Jesus chase the gay wedding cakes out of the temple? The media is always going to play dumb about it. And the Democratic Party is never going to try to take back the flag. Just like the Bible, like, they're never going to try to take back the flag. So it's up to the rest of us to convince everyone out there and remind them that hate is not a Christian value. Whether you believe in this stuff literally or not.

A (34:02)

John, I wish we had more time. You are a very, very effective speaker about this. I'm very glad we brought you on the program.

B (34:11)

Coming from you, that means something. Professor, thank you so much. Coming from you, that means something.

A (34:15)

You're very kind and I want to tell you how proud I am that you're here with us and that you brought that message for our audience to think long and hard about.

B (34:27)

Thank you.

A (34:28)

So thank you very much. And to my audience, as always, I sign off by telling you that I look forward to speaking with you again next week.