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- [00:10]
A
Welcome friends, to another edition of Economic Update, a weekly program devoted to the economic dimensions of our lives. Jobs, debts, incomes, our own and our children's. And I'm your host, Richard Wolff. I want to talk to you today about the pandemic. You all know what that's about. What I want to stress is the pandemic as it interacts with capitalism, the economic system we live under, which makes that pandemic impact us in very special ways that need to be understood. Well, let's go through a list first. In this pandemic, what capitalism is doing is putting more of a burden on lower wage workers that than on higher. Let me give you simply one statistic from the Federal Reserve of Americans making under $40,000 a year, 40% lost their jobs in the last six weeks. That's way worse than people earning more than that. At the top, the CEOs, the highest paid people get a lot of public relations benefit out of taking graciously pay cuts. They didn't lose their job, they took a pay cut. Public relations department of corporations are letting out that they are having problems with their profitability because of accommodating the coronavirus pandemic. Please be aware, those at the bottom are suffering the most and those at the top are suffering the least. Or to say the same thing in biblical language, the the rich are getting richer and the poor poorer. And why do I say richer? Because people in the stock market, that is 10% of shareholders, own 80% of the shares. They're doing reasonably well. They are getting richer. The rest of us are getting poorer. Let me drive it home some more about how capitalism makes the pandemic impact us unfairly and unequally. Women, the bulk of the workers in the service industry, have been hurt more than men in terms of lost jobs. Black and brown people have been fired more than white people. And in a kind of sickness that really defies description, the homeless in America, the hundreds of thousands, if not more homeless, are being told like the rest of us, to be safe. In this pandemic, it's important to stay indoors and wash your hands frequently. We tell that to homeless people who can't do that. There's something so wrong there. I really don't allow myself to to get into it. Then there's the disorder in our government. We have cities doing one thing, states doing another, and the government doing still something else. They can't seem to get together. Nationalism is big in Washington, so the United States is going it alone and not coordinating with other countries. The evidence is overwhelming. Arizona, for example, is allowing people to eat inside restaurants. They've opened their casinos next door. California is doing neither of those things. And this makes it crazy because you allow, of course, whatever disease there is to move easily in a disorganized society. And I'll tell you something that you may know from your studies of when leaders are incompetent and chaotic and can't get their stories straight, when the federal and the local and the regional can't be coordinated, when we can't coordinate one nation against another, it's the beginning of the end of a system. These are all symptoms and signs of a system disintegrating. And now another dimension of the same story. President Trump recently referred to himself as being like a wartime president at war with Corona. Well, you know, during war, Mr. Trump, you may not remember. I'm being kind here. In World War II, unity was so important as it could be and should be fighting a pandemic, that we didn't allow the market to work. You know why? Because markets favor the people with the most money. They get the best and the most stuff. So we had rationing. We handed out cards to the American people. We did that. And you couldn't get a quart of milk or a gallon of gas without a ration card. And ration cards were distributed to people according to their needs, not according to how much money they had. That's what a wartime president could and should do. That's what unity requires. That's what President Roosevelt did. None of that is happening now. We are not fighting this pandemic unified. We are letting it divide us further than ever. And here's a story that that somehow, for me, captured it all in a sharp way. The story of New Orleans. It recently fired its garbage collectors. It was paying them $10.25 an hour. But the workers said they needed protective equipment because garbage is full of Corona, or at least it can be. And they wanted an increase in pay to $15 an hour. And as hazard pay for the dangers of their work, for their reward, they were fired. But that's not the end of this unspeakable story. New Orleans replaced the workers it fired by arranging contracting for labor instead from the prison inmates from nearby Livingston parish. Inmates paid $1.33 an hour instead of the 1025 they had paid the garbage collectors. And those inmates, you guessed it, had to work without the protective equipment and, of course, without any hazard pay. So much for our unity, solidarity, and compassion for the essential workers like those collecting the garbage prisoners in other countries. Those are called slave laborers and the fact that they are overwhelmingly black should leave no ambiguity at all about what is going on here. Well, we've come to the end of the first part of today's show. Please remember to subscribe to our YouTube channel, follow us on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram, and be sure to visit democracyatwork.info to learn more about other Democracy at Work shows, our Union Co op store and the two books we've published, Understanding Marxism and Understanding Socialism. And lastly, a special thanks to to our Patreon community whose invaluable support helps make this show possible. And now, very specially, please stick around. For the second part of today's show. We've got a very special guest, Dr. Cornel West. He's a longtime personal friend of mine as well as someone who really doesn't need much further introduction. He is a leading intellectual. He is a leading theorist, a leading moral voice and a leading activist. Any of those qualities is remarkable in a single person. All of them in Dr. Cornel west makes him someone I'm especially proud to bring on to talk with me and with you on the next part of today's Economic Update. Welcome back, friends, to the second half of today's Economic Update show. As I promised you at the end of the first part, this is entirely now devoted to a conversation between myself and my long term friend, a man I admire more than I can say, Dr. Cornel West. We are of course, at different locations as all these kinds of interviews have to be now conducted. So first and foremost, welcome Cornell. Very glad to have you.
- [09:31]
B
Well, my brother, I tell you, I have wanted to be on your show and you tried to get me on the show for a little while. I'm glad to be here and I want to salute you, my brother. You know, we go back now almost 35, 40 years, the social tech Stanley Rodowitz, Greg Jamison and Stephen Rednick. Let us never forget you and others. But you are the most important, influential, socialist, left, Marxian public intellectual and you're putting a smile on Paul Swishy's face as well as Harry and Bebe MacDoff. Remember those wonderful kinds and memories we have of brother Hannity and sister Beatty around Monthly Review. My brother.
- [10:13]
A
All right, that's very kind of you, Cornell. Thank you. And I feel the same. I admire enormously this combination I find in you of an activist, of an analyst, of an intellectual and a moral force all combined. It is an honor and a pleasure to speak with you. So let me jump right in. What do you think, given all that you've thought and done and all that you now see, even if it's at an electronic distance, what do you think about the unspeakable failure to prepare for this virus, to now cope with it, to overlay the horror of the disease with an economic crash? What is the sense you would make of what this all means?
- [10:58]
B
I think it becomes more and more undeniable that we have overwhelming evidence of the massive failure of the American capitalist system hand in hand with the feeble democratic experiment called the usa. And what I mean by that is, in three pillars, the financialization of capitalism has led toward not just Wall street greed, but a level of unaccountability of capitalists, of economic elite going hand in hand with a militarized US nation state, externally manifest in attacks on Venezuela, expansions in Africa, drone steel drops, war still taking place, but internally having to do with mass incarceration, the mass militarization of local police departments, and the commodified culture in which everybody's for sale, everything is for sale. And militaristic metaphor, militaristic enactments and films, videos. It moves me, the culture across the board, so that what is left are a few countervailing voices, figures, movements and institutions. With that, the moment I wicked people. That's why I think we're really moving toward a full blown neo fascist moment. But those voices, those figures, those movements, those institutions that are countervailing are very important. And that's precisely why when I begin with your longevity and your integrity as public intellectual, you've been a countervailing force against this capitalist failure, against this commodified culture, against this militarized nation state all tied to money, money, money, profit maximizing, profit maximizing, but holding out for democratic, public oriented, people centered ways of being, let alone public policies that speak to the needs of bor.
- [13:04]
A
Is it your sense that the country is falling apart? I notice that people on the right, people on the left, people in the middle, there's more and more of a growing sense, or so it seems to me, of a kind of all things falling apart. Some kinds of certainties that we thought were certainties aren't assumptions are not. Obviously our daily lives are all in turmoil. Do you see this producing a kind of reckoning with this system, a kind of opening up of options that have been closed off before?
- [13:41]
B
Well, I actually see both tremendous possibility. At the same time, I experience profound sadness. The profound sadness has to do with the fact that the decline and relative fall of the US empire is generating a deep sense of morality. At the same time, there's new possibilities that the prices are tied to opportunity. And we're seeing in the younger generation, for example, the acknowledgment of capitalist failure. We're seeing in the younger generation the refusal to put up with racist and sexist and homophobic and transphobic sensibility. This is very different than was the case, let's say, 30, 40 years ago, when we were filming the law in our relative youth. And especially the younger generation willingness to even talk about socialism explicitly without it being associated with the old Cold War degradation that we saw between 1945 and 1991. So the juxtaposition, there's a sadness, but also a possibility of bounce back. Now, I come, you can imagine, I come from a tradition of black people in America where we've been on the neo fascist fate of the US Experience from the very beginning with the white supremacist slavery forms of torture and barbarism, and with the neo slavery Jim and James Crow and now with Jim Crow Jr. Or the new Jim Crow Houston language and Michelle Alexander. So black folk have always been on the underside. And the ugly fate of the US Capitalist experiment recognizing its failure from the chocolate side of town. But at the same time, black folks often say, what is it in the barbershop that we experience? That every setback is a setup for a comeback. So you have to bounce back. But bounce back is what I mean by countervailing, counter hegemonic voices speaking then to. And so even as we see things falling apart, consider not holding in the language of gay. It's also true that the bounce back is there and we've got to push that bounce back as far as we can down the road toward democratization, down the road of de commodification, down the road of demilitarization in the name of truth and justice, my brother.
- [16:11]
A
All right, let me before I explore the possibilities and the opportunities with you, and I agree with you that they're there together with the sadness, I want to explore what probably helps make you sad, which is how do you understand whatever that proportion is of Americans that support Donald Trump and the current Republican Party in its reversion to so many horrors of the past of American history, whether it's a third or it's 40% or whatever the number is, how do you understand, as you put it, before Jim Crow Jr. Or all of that right wing lurching that we see?
- [16:55]
B
Well, one is that I'm not surprised at the ugly white backlash in a moment of deep crisis, because that's been a cycle in American history. The ruling class wants to divide black and white workers, black and brown, black and red, black and yellow workers. We've seen that over and over again. I'm not surprised at the Wall street read that's been in play for a good while. What I'm most surprised by is my precious black people themselves, that historically we have really been the most progressive group in terms of our critique of militarism, the critique of injustice as it relates to discrimination, the mean for some kind of serious multi racial solidarity when it comes to the trade union. Think of what Abe Philip Randolph and others were trying to do in the 30s and 40s. And I think that Black Agenda Report, Black alliance for Peace and other organizations been raising this question. But it the strong failure of the neoliberal black bourgeoisie that has stood in the way of the kind of movement that would generate the focus on what we're talking about. Brother Bernie Sanders, he would be the nominee if the black voters could break the neoliberal hegemony of black leadership. The Democratic Party and Bernie Sanders, my dear brother Bernie, he's no messiah, he's not God, but he's opening up the kind of possibilities that we need for the kind of workers co op project that you have been talking about for so long. With such insight he carries, my brother. He would open up the critique of the privatization of education, the privatization of health care, of the privatistic health care and the need for health care for all. So part of my sadness has to do with looking and seeing how black middle class leadership has betrayed the legacy of Martin Luther King Jr. Has betrayed the legacy of Fannie New Haven, betrayed the legacy of Paul Robeson, W.E.B. du Bois, C.L.R. james, all of those great freedom fighters who are always connecting the critique of white supremacy with the critique of capitalism, with the critique of empire with the critique of patriarchy. We're in a moment now where in this post Obama moment, it's very difficult to get black leadership courageous enough and visionary enough to have the kind of critique of capitalist failures that you put forward.
- [19:34]
A
And why, Cornel, why? Why is that happening?
- [19:38]
B
I think that, you know, a black bourgeoisie is like any bourgeoisie. It's accommodated itself to empire and capitalism as a status quo that is unjust. And so that they may talk about the legacy of a Martin King or Malcolm X, but you know, serious about it. They want inclusion, they want incorporation, they want colorful symbolic representation in a dying class hierarchy and imperial hierarchy and think that somehow that's the best we can do with black poor and black working, let alone all poor and all working people left out. And so they're willing to become captains on this Titanic rather than transform the ship itself. And that's what's sad to me, but I guess I shouldn't be surprised, even though.
- [20:28]
A
All right, let me turn to the thing I think you and I most care about. What are the prospects for a renewal of a real left in the United States? How do you see the Occupy Wall street initiatives, the Black Lives Matter initiatives, Bernie Sanders, two campaigns, pluses and minuses. Do you see something emerging here and where do you think it might go?
- [20:56]
B
Well, you know what I think of the Tess Foles and Bill Agnews and so many others of the younger generation. I think that they know that without massive opposition to the economic, political and cultural status quo influence, the critiques of capitalism and white supremacy is in the empire, that people are not going to be able to live life of decency and dignity. And therefore, the younger generation more and more, I think, is acknowledging the need for multiracial solidarity. I see it in dsa. I see it among even the further left. We got some intra left, you know, discussions and dialogues going on that just. And that's always been the case, as you and I know. But in the end, it's got to be antifascist coalition against the neo fascism in the White House, and it's got to be radically left democratic opposition that brings together the cultural and social issues with the critique of capitalism at the center and the critique of empire and militarist in Latin America, in the Middle east, in Africa at the center. And I'm hoping that the legacies of some of the people that I've talked about before, the Paul Sweezes and the Du Bois and others, and I would add even Toni Morrison, in terms of her seriousness critique as a literary artist, can play a very important role here.
- [22:28]
A
My brother, is the word socialism coming back? Is the concept of an alternative part of what you see emerging?
- [22:37]
B
Oh, absolutely, absolutely. But as you know, you and I go back so far. I want to mention Sister Harriet, who I also have a great love and respect for. Just like I love you, love and respect you, that you see as a revolutionary Christian Brothers. To me, a lot of this superficial talk about ism ought to be worn like a loose garment. And what I mean by that is when people talk about capitalism, they mean so many different things. What they really need to focus on is, is the asymmetric relation of power and domination and exploitation at the workplace. When you talk about socialism, you're really talking about the empowerment of working people, poor people, against any form of domination, so that there's a moral and a spiritual dimension that needs to be incorporated, whether people call themselves socialists or anarchists or what have you, so that the ism I'm hoping doesn't get in the way. But thank God people are now open to what the great Sheldon Wolin always talks about, and brother Shelley right away, too, which is how are we going to make sure that the plighted predicament of the weak and vulnerable, which begins with class analysis and embraces any body catching hell, that they're at the center of our vision, of our analysis, and therefore we're able to come together in mass opposition without just one narrow ism, a narrow ideology, but rather a movement motion, momentum against the greed, against the hatred, the contempt, the indifference to the suffering of others, the callousness of the plight and predicament of the weak and vulnerable. That's what's really at the center of the left, a genuinely progressive movement, not just in the American empire, but all around the world. It's got to be international. Franz Sonoma is right about that.
- [24:31]
A
Yeah, I think one of the things that America's frightening me about, and I wanted your thoughts about it, there seems to be a growing effort right at the top, but spread through Republicans, Democrats alike, to scapegoat the Chinese at this point, to try to create another kind of Cold War mentality, to justify God knows what they have in mind domestically by a scare program about evil Chinese. It's kind of horrible, at least for me to watch. And I wondered what you thought.
- [25:07]
B
I think you're absolutely right. But this is part of the neoliberal wing of the ruling class. They started with the trashing of Russia. We know Russia is authoritarian and Putin's against it, there's no doubt about that. But it was a distraction from having to come to terms with what it meant to run such a weak and feeble neoliberal candidate in 2016 against the gangster Trump. Now you get the kind of scapegoating of the Chinese in both parties again. And recognizing, though, that the Trump represents the neo fascist wing of the ruling class, that the Democratic Party establishment represents the neoliberal wing of the ruling class. And then Brother Bernie and others represent the progressive neo populist win, not even the Democratic socialist, but the progressive populist wing of the ruling class. But now, of course, we're trying to push out the gangster, and therefore the question becomes, how do we proceed in such a way that we don't engage in the kind of xenophobia you're talking about that we're able to push out the neo fascist gangster in the White House, Trump, but also tell the truth about the level of indifference, callousness toward foreign working people that you get in a neoliberal Biden. And it's a different issue in terms of endorsement and so forth. I respect people who are in the Green Party or other left parties. I think that a vote for Biden, especially in those swing states would be important. But recognizing who you're voting for. Is the architect of the largest prison system in the history of the world. He still support of US imperial policies in Iraq that led for over half a million people dead. He still tied to Anita Baker episode at Clarence Thomas. He's still tied to unleashing Wall Street 3 with the repeal of Glass Steagall. We have to be honest, don't lie to the people in terms of who Biden is, but recognize in fact that we have to build a mass oppositional counter hegemonic, not just movement, but figure inside and out if we have any chance of getting out of this bad, grim and very, very bleak moment. But you know I'm a blues man. But you know me, just like you, I'm a blues man. Ain't no doubt about it. And blues is always about confronting catastrophe unflinchingly and bouncing back with a level of willingness to tell the truth, bearing witness with courage, vision, being willing to live and die for something bigger than you. And that's where we come from. You know that's where we come from. You come from that rich fictionless tradition. I come from a prophetic Christian tradition where we have deep class analysis. We understand relation and class and race and empire. And we've always been willing to come together. I was the new ran for mayor in 1985. We have a good time in New Hazard, my brother, right?
- [28:03]
A
All right.
- [28:04]
B
Oh, we had standing right there next to each other. That's what, 35 years ago, man.
- [28:09]
A
Yeah, that's true.
- [28:11]
B
And here we are again, standing there together to be consistent. Trying to have a constancy though. But that's why it's such a blessing to be in conversation.
- [28:19]
A
I only wish we had more time. Cornell. We've come to the end. I want to thank you. I know you have a busy schedule even in your sequestration like us, but it's a joy to reconnect with you and to proceed as they used to say, in agreement as we go forward. Thank you very, very much for your time and your wonderful intelligence. This is Richard Wolff. Thank you very much for being on this program with me, and I look forward to speaking with you again next.