Economic Update with Richard D. Wolff
Episode: 3 Basic Kinds of Socialism
Date: June 6, 2019
Host: Richard D. Wolff
Overview of the Episode
In this episode, Richard D. Wolff explores the theme of “socialism,” focusing on the growing interest in the concept within the United States. Drawing on recent polling showing a surprising openness to socialism among American voters, Wolff dives into what the term actually means by unpacking three distinct historical and contemporary interpretations of socialism. The episode is structured to help listeners think critically about the definitions, merits, and limitations of each kind of socialism and to reflect on their real-world impacts.
Key Discussion Points and Insights
1. Why Define Socialism Now? (00:10–03:00)
- Wolff discusses a shift in American attitudes toward socialism, pointing to a poll showing that 25% of American voters see socialism as an attractive quality in a candidate.
- Quote: “That kind of blew my mind… tells you something about change in America beyond what a million other surveys might show.” (01:10, Richard D. Wolff)
- He emphasizes the complexity of the term:
- The word "socialism" has many definitions and cannot be universally or rigidly defined any more than "capitalism" can.
- Purpose: To clarify for listeners the three major ways that "socialism" is understood around the world.
2. The First Kind of Socialism: Government Regulation and Redistribution (03:00–10:45)
Definition:
- Socialism as a system where the government intervenes in a capitalist market, via regulation and redistribution, to make capitalism more humane and equitable.
- The economy is still based on private enterprise and markets, but significant government involvement seeks to protect the public good.
Examples:
- Scandinavian countries (Denmark, Norway), much of Western Europe (Germany, Italy, France).
- Political analogues: Bernie Sanders in the USA, Jeremy Corbyn in the UK.
Key Features:
- Regulation: Setting minimum wages, price controls, limiting profits.
- Redistribution: Using taxes and welfare programs to lessen inequality.
Quote:
- “We could call it capitalism with a humane face, capitalism with a certain welfare focus, the welfare of all the people.” (07:30, Richard D. Wolff)
3. The Second Kind: Government Ownership and Central Planning (10:45–17:55)
Definition:
- Socialism in which the government owns and operates the means of production (factories, stores, offices, etc.).
- Instead of markets, there is central planning to decide what is produced and how it is distributed.
- This model critiques the first for its perpetual struggle between government and private enterprise, which private interests often undermine.
Examples:
- Soviet Union, People’s Republic of China, Cuba, Vietnam (at certain historical periods).
- After the 1920s, associated with the term “Communist.”
Key Features:
- Eliminates private ownership of production.
- Aims to prioritize collective needs over profit.
- Central plans replace market mechanisms.
Quote:
- “The argument says we shouldn't allow the market to decide who gets what, because a market always delivers whatever is scarce to the people with the most money.” (13:25, Richard D. Wolff)
4. The Third Kind: Socialization and Democratization of the Workplace (17:55–22:45)
Definition:
- Focuses on transforming how enterprises are governed internally by establishing democracy in the workplace.
- Workers collectively own and run businesses, with one-person, one-vote decision-making.
- Seeks both to avoid the power concentration of state socialism and the inequalities of regulated capitalism.
Key Features:
- Workplace democracy: Decisions about production, roles, profits are made collectively.
- The state may play a coordinating role but does not necessarily own enterprises.
- Draws inspiration from cooperatives, worker self-management, and new experiments in economic democracy.
Distinctive Insight:
- This model argues that earlier forms did not transform daily life inside the workplace and left intact hierarchical structures.
Quote:
- “We don't allow democracy into the workplace. And these socialists say capitalism never did that.” (19:45, Richard D. Wolff)
5. Interplay and Real-World Outcomes of the Three Kinds (22:45–39:45)
How Each Impacts Society and Daily Life
Moderate/Democratic Socialism (Kind 1):
- Offers people both wages and extensive public services (e.g., national healthcare, unemployment compensation, education, transportation).
- Popular and durable, particularly in European contexts.
- Problems: Insecure due to constant pushback from private owners; creates social tension around redistribution.
- Analogy: “If you pull one cone away from one child to give to the other, you’re creating a level of tension you would never have had to deal with if you’d given each child one cone at the beginning.” (29:50, Richard D. Wolff)
State Socialism/Communism (Kind 2):
- Notably effective at rapid economic growth and poverty reduction (ex: USSR, China).
- Less inequality compared to other forms.
- Problems: Concentrates too much economic and, potentially, political and cultural power in the hands of the state; still leaves a minority in charge (now government officials instead of capitalists).
Workplace Democracy Socialism (Kind 3):
- Would reorganize workplaces as communities—each worker both performs a role and co-decides direction, structure, and profit distribution.
- Seeks to create a truly new way of relating at work, beyond hierarchy.
- Challenges: How would these workplace communities coordinate on a large scale? Markets or planning?
- Promises the most profound transformation of daily life, but is the least tried.
Quote:
- “If the idea of socialism really is as it was once said it would be to go beyond capitalism… well, then that third one is by far the most transformative for people’s lives of the three that are contesting.” (38:45, Richard D. Wolff)
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
- “Anybody who tells you that ‘this is socialism’ is either ignorant or misleading you.” (02:15)
- "We could call it capitalism with a humane face, capitalism with a certain welfare focus." (07:30)
- "Communist China, Communist Russia are examples in which having one central authority... have been extraordinarily successful. Those are their achievements." (31:55)
- “We don't allow democracy into the workplace. And these socialists say capitalism never did that.” (19:45)
- “Socialism is on the agenda. But more accurately, socialisms are on the agenda.” (42:30)
Important Timestamps
- 00:10 – Wolff introduces the relevance of socialism and references polling.
- 03:00 – Outlines the first definition: government regulation and redistribution.
- 10:45 – Describes the second form: government ownership and central planning.
- 17:55 – Introduces the third form: democratizing the workplace.
- 22:45 – Examines real-world effects of each kind on people's daily lives.
- 29:50 – Analogy on redistribution and social tensions.
- 31:55 – Discusses economic achievements of communist systems.
- 38:45 – Emphasizes the transformative promise of workplace democracy.
- 42:30 – Final reflection: socialisms, not just socialism, are on the agenda.
Summary Table: The Three Kinds of Socialism
| Type | Key Features | Examples | Pros | Cons/Concerns | |-----------------------|---------------------------------------------------|-------------------------------|-------------------------------------------|----------------------------------------| | 1. Government Regulation & Redistribution | Private enterprise, market remains, heavy government regulation and redistribution | Scandinavia, Western Europe | Humane face for capitalism, social benefits | Insecure, prone to pushback, social tension around redistribution | | 2. Government Ownership & Planning | State owns/operates enterprises, central planning | USSR, China, Cuba, Vietnam | Strong economic growth, less inequality | Excessive concentration of power, political risks | | 3. Workplace Democracy | Enterprises democratically governed by workers, focus on workplace transformation | Worker co-ops, new experiments| True economic democracy, transformative | Uncharted, coordination challenges |
Final Reflection
Wolff concludes that the debate about socialism in America and the world is not just between capitalism and socialism, but among several competing concepts of socialism itself. Each form carries distinct implications for economic structure, governance, and daily life, and understanding them is crucial as socialism becomes more salient in political conversation.
Closing Quote:
“Please be aware… that there are different kinds, knowing that they are very important in their different implications for what it means to be a human being and to be an active member of a society.” (42:30, Richard D. Wolff)
Further Resources and Action
Wolff encourages listeners to stay informed and engaged as these definitions and debates will shape our economic future.
End of Summary