A (28:01)

Angels watching over me with smiles upon their face Cause I have made it through this far in an unforgiving place it feels sometimes it feels too deep For a girl like me to climb But I must knock those thoughts right down I do it in my own time I don't care I'm halfway there On a road that leads me straight to who knows where I Tell you what I have found that I know who won. I'm just upside down, ain't got no care? I ain't got no room. I think I like living upside down. Upside down? Watching people scurry by, rushing to and fro. Oh, this world is such a crazy place. It's all about the go, go, go. Sometimes life can taste so sweet when you slow it down. You start to see the world a little differently when you turn it upside down. I don't care I'm halfway there and I'm just soaking of the magic in the air. I tell you, Living upside down, living upside down. You gotta slow it down but then you pick it up. Come on.

B (29:58)

Welcome back, friends, to the second half of Economic Update. I want first of all to welcome my guest. I'm very excited. This is a person whose work I follow and whom I've known for pretty much the entirety of my adult life. So let me first welcome her. Arlie Russell Hochscheil. Thank you for coming, Alan.

C (30:19)

I'm delighted to be here.

B (30:20)

So let me tell everyone who Arlie is and then we'll jump right in. Arlie is one of the most influential sociologists of her generation. She's been a professor of sociology at UC Berkeley for many, many years. She's the author of nine books, including the Second Shift, the Time Bind, the Managed Heart, and the Outsourced. Three of her books have been named as New York Times Notable Books of the Year, and her work appears in 16 languages. She's the winner of the Ulysses medal as well as Guggenheim and Mellon Grant's, and lives in Berkeley, California. I asked her to come on this program to talk about her latest book. This is called Strangers in Their Own Land, Anger and Mourning on the American Right. It is a book that is getting a great deal of attention and for good reason. So without more ado, let me turn to Arlie and say, let us begin this discussion by telling us what your book is about and why you undertook to write a book like that.

C (31:31)

It's about the growth of the right wing in America and why, what are the feelings that have animated this growth? Why are people voting for Donald Trump? I didn't begin five years ago with Trump on my mind, but that became clearly the question because, you know, I live in Berkeley, California, which is a political enclave. It's a place of progressives. And the people I talk to, my friends, my husband, all agree with me. And then I turn on the radio, I look at television and I see there's Fox News and the O'Reilly program. And I felt disconnected. I didn't get it. I just didn't understand. So I thought five years ago, I'm going to get out of my enclave and go as far as I can possibly reach into an equal and opposite enclave. And so where had the right grown? It had grown most in the South. Okay. I would go south. Among whom had it grown the most? Among whites. Okay. I would talk to whites, among them, many religious whites. Okay, religious whites, south. But where in the South? Well, I found in 2012, the proportion of whites voting for Barack Obama was 50% in California, it was 30% in the south as a whole region, and it was 16% in Louisiana. Louisiana was the super South. Okay. I would go talk to whites, older, religious, in Louisiana. And there I brought with me a question, many on the minds of many progressives, what I think of it as the red state paradox. Why throughout the country are the poorest states, the states with the worst education, the worst medical care, the worst health, the most disrupted, troubled families, and the lowest life expectancy, states that also receive more federal dollars in aid than they give in taxes, so resistant and hostile to the federal government didn't get that. And then Louisiana was like an exaggerated version of the red state paradox because there it is this year, the poorest state, 44% of the state budget comes from federal dollars. And, and it's mostly Tea Party. So I thought, perfect, this is what I don't get. And I thought, how do I get to it? First of all, I take my own political alarm system off. That's my method. Just take it off. Not forever, but for getting to know people, so that the purpose of talking is learning, is getting curious. And for climbing what I came to call an empathy wall to the other side so I could understand, I was forever sliding back. This was an effort, you know, and people helped me. Actually, in the end of five years, I had talked to 60 people, 40 of whom were deeply right wing and really gotten to know very closely a number. And I'll tell you about that.

B (35:13)

You lived there for extended periods of time.

C (35:15)

I paid repeated visits and in between times I skyped and I, I emailed and called. One guy was always calling me, you know, how you doing, sugar? He was big Tea Party. And that particular guy had worked for years as a pipe fitter and who checked leaky pipes. He worked for Pittsburgh Plate and Glass and he had had terrible accidents and he was given the job of at dusk taking the pollution, what they called the abottams, which was toxic waste. This was Ethylene dichloride and vinyl chloride and very toxic. And spilling it in public waters, that was the. The job this man had. His name is Lee Sherman. He felt bad about it. He felt terrible about it. The company was telling him, this is your job. And he did his job. And he said, look, I hate to tell you, but I was very good at not being noticed. And then he told me, and the name of this chapter in the book is Something Good. Because he told me about a bird that had flown while he was dumping this toxic waste for ppg. This bird had flown over and plummeted as if it had been shot. And he put some stepping stones out, went out with his gloves, picked the nearly dead bird up, brought it back. He said, I was brought up on a farm. I knew about birds. Blew into the bird until the bird was resuscitated. And then he said, he put it on the hood of his truck and the bird flew away. He said, so that was something good. So I felt moved by these people. This person, later he was. Just to finish his story, he was. Got sick. His legs didn't move because he had been poisoned by these chemicals. He was put on medical leave and then fired for absenteeism.

B (37:32)

Yes.

C (37:32)

Okay. As a guy who had no love for PPG or the private sector, but who became an environmentalist, he joined a movement I learned a lot about because Louisiana is one of the most polluted spots in the state, in the nation, in the world, and very under regulated. He's now Tea Party. He's now a member of the Tea Party. So I'm scratching my head. I don't get it. I still don't get it. I've gotten really up close. I'm looking at the environment. I. I'm seeing that many people cannot breathe clean air and cannot drink clean water, but they're against regulators and government. Government is terrible. So this was the dilemma. And it got bigger before it got smaller. And talking with a number of people like Lee, I came to realize, I began to ask myself, so what's. What does a state mean to you? And I found the federal state. I found three big barriers to trust of the state. One was, we were in the south, it was the North. Federal government's the north, and even the local government is representative of the North. So watch out. They're going to wag their moral fingers at you and say you believe the wrong things. And by the way, they feel that liberals are wagging their moral finger once again. So now we have the wrong politics, too. And the Wrong social attitudes, and we're hated. We're deplorable. So the first thing is that the government was an instrument of the north. So that was one cause of the distrust, but not the main one. I think the next one is very interesting. This will be interesting to you, Rick, because I asked another person. This was a conversation with a man, quite likely. His name is Mike. Why is it you hate the state when actually the companies have done the damage to you? Because he had a similar thing. He lost his whole home and community because of a drilling accident. And the Texas Brine, the company that had drilled into the bayou and led methane gas to rise up and earthquakes had never been seen before, appeared, and lawns began to tilt. The whole community in bayou Corn sinkhole, as it's now called. Everyone had to leave. And I interviewed this guy while he was staying in his house. He was still there. There was methane gas. It was monitor in his garage.

A (40:21)

And.

C (40:21)

And I said, why are you staying here, Mike? You know, it's dangerous. You know, you light a match, the place could blow up. He said, well, oh, I'm looking after, you know, the neighbor's property. And then he said, no, actually, I don't want to leave. I love this community. And that's the thing about big government. It takes away community. I said, mike, it's Texas brine that's just taken away your community. Right, because it hasn't been regulated. Let's talk about regulation. So both these men are against big government, against regulation. And I'm wondering why. Because it would be in their interest, in my view, biological interest, you know, life interest, to get that. So one explanation is, oh, government is the north. But the next explanation is this. Now, these are my words, okay? And my analysis, But I tried it out on them, and they said, yeah, these are tea party people. Okay, so it goes like this.

B (41:26)

Yeah, I'm on pins and needles. Tell us, Tell us.

C (41:29)

Well, read the book. Read the book. That you have an oil state. A state where the oil companies and the petrochemical companies, companies dominate the economy and also dominate the state. That is, they pay for the election of officials, mainly Republican, of course. And they pay for the media. They pay for a lot. So it's what you would call a captured state. And what that means is that the state is doing things for the company. And in fact, it's almost a part of. Of the company. The company wants money. So under Governor Jindal, $1.5 billion was given to petrochemical and oil companies to come and expand around Lake Charles, because there's cheap natural gas, the product of fracking. And you have these companies that create feedstock that's used in plastic stuff. And you can do it more cheaply and make money if you come to Lake Charles. They have come to Lake Charles and they have gotten that money and they've gotten tax exemption. Okay, but with the $1.5 billion, these companies have also said, oh, yes, we've got some jobs, although they are highly automated and they import Filipina pipe fitters. So there are actually few jobs that come. And when they do come, they come three quarters from outsiders at all levels. Okay? So people think of the company. Oh, jobs. And then they think with this money, these companies have also said, well, now that we've got the money, let's give a donation to the Audubon Society. Oh, and let's give another donation to the bird sanctuary over there. And by the way, there's a third grade science thing. Let's call this, you know, some company name. Some company name. So it people feel, and in this book, I am focusing on feelings, the politics of feelings, they feel grateful to the company. Okay, you're giving me jobs, you're giving me the Orban Society. Meanwhile, the state's job is to regulate these industries and create safe conditions for workers. But the state, as now an arm of this industry, is not doing its job at all. It gives out permits very quickly. Axial just had two horrendous accidents, filled the skies with gray smoke, sent a dozen people to the emergency room. But that company has not five years later, been penalized. So the state is a do nothing state. And emotionally, it invites anger. Why should I pay my taxes to a state that isn't doing its job? It's like the state had become the complaints clerk. Okay, get mad at me because of the defective thing I just sold you. Come on, get mad at me. And they absorb the anger that people feel about their whole situation because in fact, they're not doing their job.

B (45:04)

They have been bought off.

C (45:06)

They've been basically bought off. So that social logic that I've just described intersects with a personal logic that you and I have long talked about, that as people's incomes flatten over the last 30 years, they first, if it was a traditional family and just dad worked, now mom works. And if they were working short hours, now they're working longer hours. And if they want to make a down payment on a house, they take a loan from the bank and they're paying interest on that loan. And all of this. And now there's those tax dollars. That'll be my next strategy for family strategy for reaching that elusive American dream that's fading. So that family strategy of, oh, let's reduce those taxes since the state isn't doing its job anyway. A social, economic logic interfaces with a personal logic. I thought that is the second reason you don't like the government. That's kind of an emotional setup, actually. And I tried that out on my Tea Party friends, and you know what they said? Is that some radical, progressive, Berkeley idea? No, I said, yeah, yeah, that's how it works. So. And the point of this book is that we cannot lose so many people who are, in fact, victims of a system, but who have given up on a good state for doing anything and who are not our enemies. And I think a lot of people on the left have said, oh, you know, terribly, can't talk to these people. And that's a giant mistake. A giant mistake. The point of this book is we really need to reach out, and there's a lot of possible common ground that is not visible to the naked eye, given the rhetoric in this. But the final reason is another and final reason that people hate this state. And that is what I came to call the deep story. The deep story is a story that feels true. And you take out facts, you take out judgments, is just what feels true. And the deep story of the right, and by the way, we have a deep story of the left. The deep story of the right is you're waiting in line. And as in a pilgrimage, at the top of the line is the American Dream, and you're waiting in line. Line is not moving, hasn't moved in a long time. You feel a strong sense of deserving. You have a work life like Lee Sherman. I was just describing, you know, it's been tough. And people, I ask them, well, did you get any vacation? Well, I got one week vacation, sick time and vacation time combined for the first five years of my place of work. Two weeks for the second five years. People love to fish and hunt, and they're not getting any time. So they're waiting in line with a sense of deserving. And then they see. What do they see? They see someone cutting a head. Well, what's that? Who's that? Well, that's a black person under affirmative action who's getting access to jobs that used to be reserved for whites. And who else is cutting that? Well, that would be women. Now, affirmative action, getting access to jobs used to be reserved for men. And who else? Well, that's immigrants and refugees and even the endangered pelican seems to be ahead of them because the government cares about it, but not me. And then they see in this deep story there's Barack Hussein Obama should be impartially supervising the line of waiters for the American dream. And it's going yoo hoo, hey, the to the line cutters. And they think, well, he's a line cutter too. How did he get to Columbia? Single mother, they weren't rich. And Harvard, my God. And so they come to believe that he is sponsoring them. He is their president and they are strangers in their own land and not represented and not seen. They feel unacknowledged. And then they see someone ahead of the line turn around and oh, you stupid southern redneck. And that's it. Then they snap. Then they say, wait a minute. So liberals and the whole establishment is all making the government into a giant marginalization machine. And that's the third reason that the state they're giving up on the state doesn't look like it's their state. It's oil state, it's the line cutter state, it's the state of the north. And they think, who else is there? There's nothing. Politics is a desert. And then who should come along exploiting that distrust? In my view, his name is Donald Trump.

B (50:54)

Is that how they see him?

C (50:56)

As a rescuer, as someone who acknowledges.

B (50:59)

Them, the ancient knight on the white horse who's going to save them?

C (51:04)

Yes, they see him, as they're always saying, telling it like it is, because he gets to critique and shamelessly shame all the line cutters, tacitly or overtly. And if you did a kind of an iconography of shame, the things that come out of Donald Trump's mouth, it would be shame of women, shame of blacks, shame of immigrants, shame. All except for white blue collar men. They would be in the center of the circle. They're not being shamed. And by the way, the right to food stamps and social programs, he's not touching those either. So I think he's providing a shame free avenue for whites should they need them in their low wage jobs to supplement them. That would be. He's saving them from shame. They feel shamed and that wrongly shame because they are working tough jobs. So he's paradoxically, he who shames everyone is sort of carved out a little area of non shame. And it's much like right wing movements in Europe at this time too. So cut out the competitors and hold on to some parts of the state for you.

B (52:35)

This is amazing. It's wonderful to hear you speak. We don't have much time, so let me push you on something you said to me even before we began. How do we build those of us that are critical of capitalism as a system? How do we build bridges to folks like those in Louisiana you study and write about so poetically? How do we build bridges to them about what we share so that we would have the strength to make the changes that we want and that they need?

C (53:08)

That's a great question. It's central to this book. It's the purpose of the book. And I think there's a lot of possibility. I was listening to the earlier part of your program where you were talking about Social Security and how safe was it? And I was thinking, how would a right winger listen to that? They would say, yeah, this guy Wolf, he's onto it. Yeah, but you know, it was critical of government in a way, and so they would.

B (53:39)

But when make my criticism of government, I always show that it's in. It's their beholdenness to the private economy that makes the government the bad thing. So that you go behind it to see what's lying behind it. Can we speak with these folks in Louisiana? If you were to and to make.

C (53:58)

That point, yes, you could. But you have to have them in front of you. You have to have three beers, you have to go fishing. You have to come with an openness. Take your own alarm system off to begin with. You put it back on very gradually. It'll always be that people ask me, have you changed your politics? Doing all this intensive research for this book, I say, no, no, certainly not. But it's changed me. It's changed me because I see more possibility for crossover. One guy I spoke to said, let's get money out of politics. He is Tea Party. He's voting for Trump and he wants to get money out of politics. Okay, campaign finance reform, we've got that one. The environment, he said, why is that a left wing cause I don't get that. I'm trying to talk to my Tea Party friends. Not with much success, by the way, but he's trying that. It wasn't just I that was reaching over to them, they were reaching over to me. And that's, I guess the main message that we need to climb in empathy wall. We're not talking to each other. We're stuck in media enclaves and technological enclaves and geographic enclaves. And I think something good could happen. I think everybody has to get out and vote, I would say, and vote for Hillary. At this point, but that there's a task beyond the election and beyond Trump that lies ahead of us.

B (55:38)

I like your optimism because I share it. I share it because, in part, the comments that flow into us, we get an enormous amount of email traffic to us. It's very clear that a good number of the people who write to us are not progressives in the traditional way. They're not left wing people. They've heard the program. They respond to particular issues. And it's very clear to me that the opportunities to build something in the United States across these stylized red, blue differentiations is enormous. And that we're barely at the beginning.

C (56:13)

Barely at the beginning. But the first thing we need to do is really get to know one another and they take their alarm system off, too. And that's a great way to start. It's not an end in itself, but it's a great way to start a new national conversation to close, because we.

B (56:33)

Have no more time. It's almost as though you were saying to us and to the audience listening and watching that a book called Strangers in Their Own Land, the folks you encountered in Louisiana might discover that they have more friends among the rest of us than they imagined. If we're willing to discover that they could be our friends, too. And that it's not just a good feeling, it's a real political possibility.

C (57:01)

That's right. That's right.

B (57:03)

Thank you very, very much, Arlie. I know you're giving interviews everywhere, and your book deserves it. To everybody listening here, this is a book that if you care about the political life of this country and its future, is one you really ought to read. Thank you very much. Thank you, Arlie.

C (57:20)

Thank you.

B (57:20)

And I look forward to being with you all again next week. Time, my time, babe. Thing gonna change change, change, change, change, change change Thing gonna change.

A (58:00)

Sam.