B (13:49)

Thanks so much for having me on.

A (13:50)

Well, as I've told you and as I want our audience to know, I am really interested in exploring not just the big formal Questions of economics. But all the things that make an economy work or not work, that people don't talk about, although they should. And the one I want you to talk about are the problems that beset working mothers. Our society more and more demands that mothers work, that they don't stay in the home, that they add a whole set of responsibilities outside the home, usually adding them to the already long list of responsibilities inside, all the more if they're children. And the tensions and problems of that shape their lives, shape the economy. And that has to be talked about more than anything. So I want to open it up by asking you, what are the problems of what in Europe is called work life balance? You know, how do you balance the competing demands on you?

B (14:51)

Well, first of all, thank you very much for having me on the show, and thank you. I hope I can do justice to the working mom's plight these days. And thanks for even bringing this topic up as something that's important to talk about. I don't hear about it enough. And every time I do hear about helps, it helps to have this conversation because it's so secretive. And then moms, we feel guilty about everything. It just comes along. It's like you suddenly you give birth, and also guilt comes out. And we're always wondering, am I doing something wrong? Is this okay with my child? Am I doing the best I can? Is this, you know, so there's always that guilt. And I think it's really important to recognize what pressures the system is putting on. And, you know, where if we're falling short as a parent or if we're not, how much of that is on my plate or how much of that is, you know, contingent upon society? And when you were doing the introduction question, you reminded me of just my parents. Work life balance. My mother and father both worked because they needed to do that in order to support the family. And my father had a heart attack early and then was unable to work. So my mother was supporting our family from the time I was maybe 12 years old until he died. And the rest of the time. So working as a woman has always been something that's been on my agenda.

A (16:17)

Something you saw in your mother every day.

B (16:19)

Exactly. And I saw, oh, you can be a mom and you can be a worker. But it wasn't until I had my own children that I could see that the stresses that she was under, how they flowed back onto me. And now I'm a working mom, and those same stresses flow onto my children. And it's really hard to see that.

A (16:40)

You Know, in our society it's still the case, right, that somehow without it ever being said, the woman has the major responsibility for the child or the children. Which means that even if you're both husband and wife or partners are both working outside and maybe let's say equivalently, it's not equivalent when you come home. So that the extra work that the female of the species is asked to do puts all kind, I would assume, puts all kinds of strains. You hear women talking about the anxiety they feel relative to the child if they're busy working. And you hear that a lot more in my experience than you hear a man doing it. So I kind of wanted to pull out from you some sense of your feelings about whether men and women are managing these conflicting.

B (17:35)

No, it's absolutely different. I mean, I can't speak for every group. Obviously there's gonna be. But I think that women have the emotional burden of being that emotional connection in that special way that is a mother to the child. And that burden continues around the clock. You don't go to work and leave it at home. It's with you all the time. And it's not a burden. I mean, that's a terrible word, like, ah, it's killing me. But you know, it's there and it changes you as a human being.

A (18:08)

Your baby is how old?

B (18:09)

She's two and a half.

A (18:10)

Two and a half.

B (18:11)

She's in the what the Norwegians, I think call the testing phase. They call it the terrible twos here, but the boundary pushing phase. But you know, my husband is very helpful around the house. He doesn't have sort of an old time idea of division of labor. He cooks, he cleans, he does the cat box. I mean, God bless him. But still there's this division of labor that he, he cannot do because he's the father and I'm the mother. So that labor is always with me. I don't know if that makes sense, but I've always felt that way also. Just the, you know, it's not like he's going to breastfeed. He would, my husband, if he could have, but he couldn't do that. So there's this connection there that's just something that's innate to it and you don't get to leave it at home.

A (18:57)

How does it. Can you tell us a little more how it affects you, that you take it with you to your job, impacts your work life, how that sort of wondering.

B (19:09)

I don't want to do a disservice to women who are mothers in the Workplace. I think it actually expands us as people and I think to create the opportunity for further compassion could make a workforce actually far more wonderful. It doesn't necessarily have to be a drag, but when I walk out of the door, I feel bad. I feel bad and I'm lucky because I have two part time work jobs that allow me to be home two full days out of the week and then on the weekend. And it's not always like that because as it turns out activists tend to protest on the weekend. So I often get a lot of weekend work because that's what I cover my other job. But you know, a lot of my friends had to make a choice, either lose half of the family's income or not see their kid for 40 to 60 hours a week and basically have someone else, a whole nother economy of nannies, of daycares, whatever the case may be, raising their children. This is another problem that comes down to economics. I moved out of Syracuse, New York because the job economy in Syracuse, New York is pretty abysmal, especially for journalists. I think there's like three up there and not. That's it. And so moving to another place now, I'm far away from my family, don't see them as often. There's no one to call for help basically that you don't pay, who's not just hopefully a friendly neighbor or something like that. But it's not the same. And that is driven by economics. I mean, you know, that whole upstate New York area was just destroyed by nafta.

A (20:51)

Still is.

B (20:51)

And I think that really affects the children too. They don't have access to their grandparents and as if they were another parent or an aunt, as if it was an additional person who lived around the.

A (21:02)

Corner or elsewhere in the building or something.

B (21:05)

I do have some family members in Queens and we go there quite a bit. And in Brooklyn, people, there is still the opportunity in some ethnic enclaves to all live on the same street or have a multifamily home or something where you can do that. But it's really rare and far between. And there's an emotional toll on me because I was brought up with Grant Nonna, 10 minutes down the street, grandma half an hour away, uncles, aunts, cousins all around, not right in the house. We didn't live, we lived in like the suburbs, but not far away. And here we don't have that. And that increases attention level for a mother because I think mothers want to know that their kids are going to be safe and protected and enveloped in love beyond what the mother can give. And you know.

A (21:59)

You said something interesting to me before we went on the cameras and on the radio. Part of the program about part time work. This society leaves that up to companies to decide whether it's profitable or not. But if I hear you correctly, there ought to be a consideration about part and full time to accommodate the conditions of, of working mothers to create opportunities and flexibilities that would make your life much, much easier.

B (22:27)

Absolutely. Right up until last week I had three part time jobs and I had to make a go insane with three part time jobs. And then when you're exhausted, you can't be a good mom, the kid picks up the stress or choose to let go of a significant amount of income in order to be present and be physically able to be present. You know, sleep deprivation comes with the job of motherhood and then you gotta go to work and perform. You know, it's a stress and making that choice, you know, you just don't know what's right.

A (23:06)

What did you do with your three jobs?

B (23:08)

One, I was an adjunct professor teaching media studies. I am the host of WBAI show and I cover, this is the hardest one because I cover activist action, which isn't a regular job. It's like when it pops up, you run for it. And because it's irregular, you don't know how much money you're going to make in a month. This month could be a lot, this month could be very little. And so economic instability and insecurity is part and parcel of that. I have the other job that kind of brings in the baseline check, but economic insecurity, cause I mean, how good of a mother can you be when you're terrified that you can't feed the kids or bring in the, I mean the diapers or even if you're a middle class mom, there's still economic insecurity because the minute the kid is born you're saving for Harvard or SUNY or whatever college you're gonna try. You want them the best for them. And people in my situation, I still carry a debt burden that is almost six figures from my own university education.

A (24:11)

And you're already worrying about the next generation.

B (24:13)

Exactly. Free college education would bring that stress level down. Free health care would bring that stress level down. Not having to worry about, I mean part time jobs don't usually give health care. I work for a liberal news organization in Europe.

A (24:29)

Give health care in Europe, it's a standard thing. You give everybody health care, it doesn't matter whether they have a job. Don't have a job, whether they have a part time job, a full. You separate the health care as a human need from the conditions of the economies bouncing up and down. And that strikes everybody there as the normal, natural, humane thing to do. Americans find it an amazing thing.

B (24:51)

It's a very strange thing. We live under here where you have to earn your right to be cared for.

A (24:57)

It's also, it's an economy that makes things work for profit. It's the profit making employer who decides part time or full time. What the. The idea that you ought to arrange work times to accommodate something as fundamental as bringing the next generation into the world doesn't seem to compare preparations.

B (25:17)

If they're not going to get your own kid to work for that corporation, what do they care about? They don't care about your kid. I'm sorry, I don't see that very much.

A (25:25)

Because we're running out of time. I wanted to make sure. Because it goes so fast.

B (25:29)

It goes fast.

A (25:30)

Give us a sense of your wishes, your fantasy. Let your mind go. What would you like to think of a better economic system would be able to offer women, particularly mothers, particularly mothers.

B (25:46)

Who work, as I said before, the free education and a quality education, a supported public education. The mothers I know in New York City are scrambling to figure out how to educate their children because the public schools have been undermined. So that's a whole nother issue. But equality, free education and free college education and free healthcare. But also. How about paid maternity leave for more than six weeks? How about six weeks? Six weeks? You barely like, you know, but you know, we're walking around in six weeks.

A (26:20)

We've done programs on it. We're the only advanced in the industrial country in the United States that gives no guaranteed, legally required paid maternal and paternal leave. It's unbelievable. There are countries out there much less rich than we who give a year, who give six months, who give it to both parents, et cetera, et cetera. It's an extraordinary willingness of the American people to forego something which, which obviously families of working mothers need, but everybody needs.

B (26:51)

The child needs to be with the parents, especially in those very young times. It's just, it's inhumane and I think it puts a specific burden on the mother that you should be emotionally and physically ready to go back to work in, you know, as much as six weeks or some people have a couple of months. That's not enough either. And there's an enormous emotional toll. The first time I dropped my daughter off with a different caregiver, I started crying and I took a YouTube. I took a video. Not you. I didn't post it, but I took a video of it because it just struck me as this is what all moms do. The first time you have to drop off your child away from you is incredibly difficult. And it becomes less difficult, but it's still. It's still hard every day. And that emotional toll is going to spill over onto your work. I'm sorry. We're not, like, compartmentalized as human beings. We're human beings. And the treatment of workers in all sectors as cogs and not human, it's not very productive. First of all, it's counterproductive to getting the work done that you want done.

A (28:04)

But it's also really the old question that we deal with on this program all the time. Is the economy there to serve? Well, people need. Or are people there to serve what the employer needs? I mean, sooner or later, you have to make that choice. And I think you've been very eloquent about making clear the costs of not organizing the economy around the needs of working mothers as a basic part of our population.

B (28:28)

I know we're out of time, but the mental health care and the mental stress of it and the emotional part, it needs to be considered.

A (28:37)

Thank you very much, Julian.

B (28:38)

Thank you so much.

A (28:39)

And thank you all. I want to remind you all, please support us by signing up on YouTube to follow us and looking at our websites and remembering that we have a Patreon community as well. And I look forward to speaking with you again next week.