Economic Update with Richard D. Wolff

Episode: Economic/social costs of Prisons
Date: January 13, 2017

Brief Overview

In this episode, host Richard D. Wolff delves into the pervasive economic and social costs of the U.S. prison system, highlighting its historical roots, current magnitude, and devastating community impact. Through an insightful interview with Dr. Kimberly Westcott—an expert on social welfare and incarceration—Wolff explores how mass incarceration harms not just individuals but also families, communities, and the broader American economy. The discussion further connects these issues to deeply entrenched racial inequalities and the persistent cycle that undermines the reintegration of formerly incarcerated individuals.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Economic Updates: Cooperative Economies & Systemic Issues

[00:00–28:00]

• Detroit’s Cooperative Economy

  • Detroit's decline (population fell from nearly 2 million to 700,000 over 40 years) is used as a lens to view capitalism’s failures.
  • The rise of grassroots cooperation (e.g., time banks, mutual aid) illustrates that "the cooperative fair equal exchange economy works better than an economy driven by employers figuring out how they can use people to make money." — Richard D. Wolff (06:35)

• Fridley, Minnesota—Residents Cooperatize Their Mobile Home Park

  • Residents collectively purchased their mobile home park, improving conditions by removing profit-seeking management—demonstrating the benefits of democratic, cooperative ownership.

• Corporate Misconduct and Accountability

  • Volkswagen’s $4.3 billion fine for emissions cheating is dissected as a classic capitalist trade-off of public health for profit.

• Higher Education Funding and Political Spin

  • Analysis of NY Governor Cuomo’s proposal for tuition-free college highlights disconnects between rhetoric and actual financial numbers.

• Obamacare’s Repeal: A Tax Cut for the Wealthy

  • Wolff explains that the real driver behind ACA repeal is reducing taxes on America’s wealthiest, who fund the Republican Party.

• Executive Pay in Healthcare

  • U.S. healthcare sector pays its executives more than any other industry—one factor in bloated medical costs, with worse outcomes than peer nations.

• Worldwide Fight Against Inequality

  • Rising inequality is fueling global backlash. Wolff urges systemic changes to income distribution, not mere redistribution after the fact.

2. Main Interview: Dr. Kimberly Westcott on Prisons’ Societal Costs

[30:22–55:47]

The Scope and Scale of U.S. Incarceration

• Extraordinary Numbers

  • The U.S. has 5% of the world’s population but incarcerates 25% of its prisoners (33:52).
  • Each year, 2.3 million are incarcerated (7 million when including probation/parole).
  • Annual direct spending: $80 billion nationally, with $3 billion in New York State (34:23).

• Hidden Costs

  • Long-term, societal costs—including lost productivity, family disruption, healthcare, and recidivism—are estimated at $1.2 trillion per year (35:16).

Social and Economic Damages

• Individual Harms

  • “You’ve got lost opportunity for human capital development or social capital development. You’re not getting the kind of education or training that you need. Lost connection to family, lost direct health and mental health costs…” — Dr. Westcott (35:18)

• Barriers to Reintegration

  • Ex-prisoners face rampant unemployment (40–60% jobless for at least a year post-release), homelessness, and family disruption.

Racial Disparities in Incarceration

• Disproportionate Impact

  • Blacks and Hispanics are about 37% of the U.S. population but constitute 60% of the prison population; in New York State, they are 73% of the incarcerated (37:19).

• Perpetuation of Inequality

  • Discrimination based on conviction history compounds with pre-existing racial barriers, creating multi-generational cycles of disadvantage.

Historical Roots: Mass Incarceration as Continuation of Oppression

• Punishment Evolution
  • Transitioned from public corporal punishment to penitentiaries (solitary confinement), then to labor systems.
  • The “convict lease system” in the post-Civil War South criminalized minor offenses to maintain forced black labor after slavery ended.

“You could maintain the slave system even after slavery is outlawed, by… throwing the former slaves into jail… and then basically make them available to the folks who didn’t have slaves anymore.” — Richard D. Wolff (44:53)

Institutionalizing the Cycle

• Recidivism Defined

  • Recidivism is measured by how many released prisoners return to incarceration—often due to community disinvestment, discrimination, and lack of opportunities.

• Cycle of Disadvantage

  • Policies and social norms (mandatory minimums, tough-on-crime laws, restricted parole) lead to rising prison populations and disproportionate impact on communities of color.

Breaking the Vicious Cycle

“It’s critical to think about a prison system and the community as not being separate systems. If you’re going to deal with a problem, you have to deal with all of the conditions and they’re really interrelated.” — Dr. Westcott (51:35)

• Community Investment and Resourcing
  • The need for in-prison training that connects directly to living-wage jobs post-release.
  • Worker cooperatives and cooperative economies in communities of color as a path to real opportunity and reintegration.

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On Cooperative Solutions:
  “It is a comment on capitalism born in the depths of the city that capitalism has betrayed and abandoned, perhaps more than any other…” — Richard D. Wolff (07:30)

• On Healthcare Executive Pay:
  “Maybe you can take some pleasure in knowing you’re helping to pay the highest executive salaries in the United States. And that’s been the case for a long time.” — Richard D. Wolff (27:09)

• On Racialized Incarceration:
  “We know that mass incarceration disparately impacts people in communities of color… So the question for me is why would we continue… to invest in a system that damages people and pays to the tune of 1.2 trillion… for a system that damages individuals and families and communities? I simply. I don’t get it.” — Dr. Kimberly Westcott (37:19, 38:32)

• On Breaking Out of the Cycle:
  “It’s critical to think about a prison system and the community as not being separate systems… The most important thing is to deal with the issue of resourcing what people need to live almost on a human rights level…” — Dr. Kimberly Westcott (51:35, 53:59)

Important Timestamps

• Detroit’s Underground Economy/Coops – [02:00–09:00]
• Story of Fridley, MN Co-op Home Park – [09:00–13:30]
• Volkswagen Emissions Scandal – [13:31–16:58]
• Cuomo/Bernie Free Tuition Proposal Critique – [16:59–19:50]
• Obamacare/Tax Policy Analysis – [19:51–24:08]
• Healthcare Executive Pay – [24:09–27:09]
• World Inequality Backlash – [27:10–28:00]
• Start of Dr. Kimberly Westcott Interview – [30:22]
• U.S. Prison Population/Costs – [33:17–34:23]
• Societal Costs Breakdown – [35:16–36:28]
• Racial Disparities in Incarceration – [37:01–38:47]
• Historical Roots of U.S. Punishment System – [39:27–46:08]
• Recidivism & Vicious Cycle – [48:49–51:35]
• Policy Solutions and Community Investment – [51:35–54:11]
• Worker Co-ops as Solution – [54:11–54:54]
• Conclusion of Interview – [54:55–55:47]

Conclusion

Richard D. Wolff and Dr. Kimberly Westcott illuminate the staggering social and economic toll of mass incarceration in the U.S., connecting contemporary injustices to their historical and systemic roots. They argue for cooperative, community-minded solutions—especially for reintegrating formerly incarcerated people and tackling racialized barriers to opportunity. The conversation insists that the current cycle remains unbroken due to deeply entrenched interests and a lack of true societal commitment to change, making the case for a radical rethinking of both the economy and criminal justice.