Podcast Summary: Economic Update with Richard D. Wolff
Episode: Employer vs Employee: Capitalism's Endless Conflict
Date: April 4, 2019
Host: Richard D. Wolff
Guest: Bob Henley
Overview
In this episode of Economic Update, Richard D. Wolff explores the perpetual conflict between employers and employees within capitalism, illustrating how this foundational struggle manifests in both policy and everyday economic life. Wolff opens by declaring that the employer-employee conflict is "a continuous war" (00:13), later examining contemporary examples of this struggle—from gig economy workers fighting for rights to systemic underpayment of essential workers such as EMTs. The second half features investigative journalist Bob Henley, diving deeper into the contradictions of wage justice, the Green New Deal, and how society values (and devalues) various forms of labor.
Key Discussion Points and Insights
1. Capitalism's Enduring Labor Conflict
- Main Theme: The eternal nature of the struggle between employers and employees, regardless of legal or regulatory changes.
- Example: LA Exotic Dancers
- Strippers at "Soldiers of Pole" sought employee status after being misclassified as independent contractors (00:35).
- Employers shifted their tactics to evade obligations (manipulating hours, scheduling, etc.), showing the adaptability of capital to preserve its advantage (01:28).
- Quote [Wolff]:
"Whatever the legal arrangements are and whatever reforms are passed, that war is never over and they're just always looking for other ways to get the same outcome." (01:47)
2. The Limits of Presidential Power in Economic Change
- The trade deficit grew to a record despite President Trump's promises, exposing the constraints of political power under capitalism's structural imperatives (03:01).
- Quote [Wolff]:
"Presidents don't have enough power no matter what they do. Capitalism is a system that has its own ways of working. And mostly what presidents do is diddle around the edges, but they can't change the basic logic and the basic thrust of this system." (03:32)
3. Wealth Inequality and Social Unrest
- UN Report: Unequal wealth distribution is fueling protest and government repression across the globe (e.g., Sudan, Israel, France’s Yellow Vest movement) (05:10).
- Symbol of Inequality: Sale of an $11 million Bugatti while protests rage underlines stark disparities (06:01).
4. Deindustrialization and Community Devastation
- Case Study: Lordstown, Ohio GM Plant
- Plant closings have decimated employment—from 618,000 GM workers in 1970s to 103,000 today (07:05).
- Wage stagnation/decrease: Adjusted for inflation, auto workers now earn less than 15–20 years ago despite higher productivity and profits for shareholders/executives (08:01).
- Quote [Wolff]:
"A tiny group of people... made the decisions that deprived half a million workers over these years of their jobs, their incomes, their pensions, their futures. It's extraordinary." (07:39)
5. Deregulation and Favoritism Towards Capital
- Recent reductions in banking regulation, despite ten years of illegal activity and massive fines for big banks post-2008, exemplify government's continued prioritization of business and finance over workers (09:00).
- Corporate tax cuts, increased military budget, and loosening payday lending rules all disproportionately benefit capital over labor and the vulnerable (10:24).
- Quote [Wolff]:
"He may not be able to give you a decent income... But taking care of the military, the banks and corporations is very good at that." (10:51)
Interview Segment: Bob Henley on Wage Injustice and Labor Policy (12:00 onwards)
6. Emergency Medical Technicians (EMTs): Heroic Work, Poor Pay
- EMTs in NYC make ~$40–45k/year, compared to firefighters’ $85k/year, despite high stress and danger (13:40).
- Workforce is primarily women and people of color, resulting in systemic undervaluation (14:14).
- Lack of career advancement and high attrition leads to inexperienced staff, worsening public safety (14:58).
- Extended overtime and dangerous conditions result in "working tired"—now recognized as "working impaired" (15:16).
- Quote [Henley]:
"Through capital, being on top of labor and driving these decisions, we have a workforce that's not experienced when it comes to EMTs, a constant churn... and also a high burnout rate." (14:58)
"This is a prime example of what I call late stage vulture capitalism at its worst." (17:09)
7. The Myth of the Market Rewarding Value
- Wolff argues that the market fails to reward crucial labor, e.g., child care workers vs. parking attendants (16:13).
8. The Green New Deal and the Right to Meaningful Work
- Media misrepresentation focused on “support for those unwilling to work,” masking the proposal’s roots in FDR’s "Second Bill of Rights" (18:35).
- Henley emphasizes that the Green New Deal is fundamentally about dignified work for all and ecological renewal (18:29, 19:40).
- Need for direct critique of capitalism’s tendency to privatize profits and socialize environmental/social costs (20:35).
- Quote [Henley]:
"Basically repurposing taxpayer funded Pentagon research which then they privatize the profits and then socialize the idle people and it becomes a cost externality for them..." (21:15)
9. Challenging the Notion of the "Unwilling to Work"
- Post-2008 crisis: Many left workforce not out of unwillingness, but due to diminished job quality and loss of dignity (21:36).
- Women and older male workers often choose unpaid labor (caregiving, community work), which is systemically undervalued (23:09).
- The labor market’s failures have led to rising disability, mental health trauma, and declining life expectancy (25:16).
- Henley and Wolff repeatedly assert that structural/systemic issues, not individual attitudes, are to blame for labor force trends (24:10, 25:16).
10. Forgotten Value of Service
- Henley laments the erosion of the ethic of service and the rise of societal rewards for idle wealth, instead of labor or communal benefit (26:09).
- Quote [Henley]:
"The dream of America is to be idle but wealthy. Right?" (26:43)
11. Capital vs. Labor in Taxation
- Capital is taxed less than labor, perpetuating inequality and making a mockery of the “lazy poor" stereotype (27:03).
12. Dignity and Rights at Work
- Wolff rounds out by comparing capitalism's treatment of workers to slavery—a system where people are disposable unless valued as profit sources (28:15).
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
-
On the eternal employer-worker struggle:
"That war is never over and they're just always looking for other ways to get the same outcome." (01:47, Wolff)
-
On government's priorities:
"But taking care of the military, the banks and corporations is very good at that." (10:51, Wolff)
-
On EMT pay inequities:
"We have a workforce that's not experienced... a constant churn... and also a high burnout rate." (14:58, Henley)
-
On the Green New Deal:
"Really the Green New Deal is all about work." (19:40, Henley)
-
On work and dignity:
"If we can't [provide good jobs], we can't turn on them and say you're unwilling to work." (22:15, Wolff)
-
On the bias of reward:
"We tax our capital less than we tax the labor of people who earn their living by working." (27:03, Henley)
Timestamps for Important Segments
- 00:10–03:00: Introduction and LA gig worker struggle
- 03:00–07:00: Structural powerlessness of presidents; trade deficits
- 07:00–09:00: Lordstown plant closure/deindustrialization
- 09:00–12:00: Deregulation of banks, payday lenders, government priorities
- 12:00–18:00: Interview with Bob Henley – EMT wage injustice
- 18:00–23:00: The Green New Deal, public misunderstanding, and FDR’s legacy
- 23:00–26:00: “Unwilling to work” narratives, labor force participation, trauma
- 26:00–28:00: Service, youth unemployment, the social contract
- 28:00–End: Final thoughts on worker dignity and the legacy of workplace disposability
Concluding Reflection
Wolff and Henley expose the foundational struggle between labor and capital in contemporary America. From strip clubs to firehouses to the halls of power, the episode insists that economic systems—and the policies that emerge—are far from impartial. Instead, they are fields of struggle where values, priorities, and lives are at stake. The call at the end is clear: the right to meaningful work, dignity, and economic justice must become societal priorities, not afterthoughts.