Economic Update Extra: Conversation with David Harvey

Podcast: Economic Update with Richard D. Wolff
Host: Richard D. Wolff (A), Produced by Democracy at Work
Guest: Professor David Harvey (B)
Date: July 5, 2018

Episode Overview

This episode features an extended conversation between Richard D. Wolff and renowned Marxist geographer David Harvey, focusing on the aftermath of the 2008–09 global financial crisis, the realities behind narratives of economic recovery, class perspectives on contemporary capitalism, the future and role of Marxism, and sources of meaningful social and political change. Harvey and Wolff critically examine dominant economic myths, discuss alienation and shifting centers of capitalism, and explore paths for left movements to find resonance in today's fractured world.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Myth of Economic Recovery (00:01–02:46)

• Harvey challenges the common narrative that the world recovered from the 2008 crisis, adding sharp class analysis.
  • Harvey: “I think it's a perfectly true story. If you happen to be in the top 1%. If you're anybody else, it's a bunch of lies.” (00:48)
• He highlights how the wealthy used the crisis to become even richer, aided by policies like quantitative easing, which inflated assets (stock and property markets) but left ordinary people struggling with stagnant wages, overwork, and exorbitant rents.
• Quote:
  • Harvey: “Of course they say the crisis is over because for them the crisis is over. For the rest of us, people are struggling.” (01:22)

2. The Psychological Burden of the Recovery Narrative (02:46–04:02)

• Wolff observes that insisting there’s a recovery inflicts psychological harm on those left out.
  • Wolff: "It's almost like a cruelty to go to the mass of people and tell them endlessly that they're in a recovery..." (02:46)
• Harvey & Wolff discuss the idea that failures are individual, not systemic (“you didn’t invest in yourself”), resulting in blame, alienation, and social crisis (addiction, suicide).
  • Harvey: "They were very surprised that there's a real escalation in suicide rates and opioid addictions and all the rest of it." (03:44)

3. Future of Marxism and Its Role (04:02–05:46)

• Harvey emphasizes the need to make Marxist analysis relevant and accessible, linking it to daily life and using it to build movements for alternatives to capitalism.
  • Harvey: "If we can do that, then this world would be a very different place from the way it's headed right now." (06:54)
• He points out the limits of infinite growth and the need to stabilize rather than expand global economic production.

4. Global Alienation and the Rise of the Right (05:46–07:16)

• Harvey describes global alienation, noting that many, feeling adrift and meaningless, turn to nationalist/fascist leaders for a sense of belonging and identity (citing Orban, Erdogan, Duterte, Bannon).
• He argues that the left must offer an alternative structure of meaning, not just policy.

5. Openings for the Left and Capitalist Crisis (07:16–08:37)

• Wolff asks whether failures of the right will eventually push alienated masses leftwards.
• Harvey: "I think the opening to the left is already there. I don't think we wait for the right to fail. I think we talk about to alienated populations directly..." (07:56)
• He stresses the need to directly address the real roots of people’s problems: capitalist crisis, not scapegoating (immigrants, foreign trade, etc.).

6. Shifting Centers of Capitalism and Class Perspective (08:37–11:06)

• Discussion on whether capitalism has ‘moved’ from its original centers (Europe, US, Japan) to emerging powers (China, India, Brazil).
  • Harvey: From a working-class perspective, yes—the manufacturing and opportunities have shifted.
  • For the global 1%, however, the center remains with financial elites (especially in the US/Europe/Japan), who are isolated from hardship (“gated communities, pleasure domes, multiple homes”).
  • Quote: "The capitalist class can do extremely well, while capitalism in general is doing very badly." (12:55)

7. Demonization of Immigrants (11:06–13:16)

• Wolff critiques the shift from valuing immigrants to demonizing them in public discourse.
• Harvey responds: Immigration historically fueled capitalist success but is now demonized as a deflection by certain elites to protect their own interests.
  • Harvey: "If we demonize the Koch brothers as opposed to the immigrant, then we would be in a very different kind of world." (12:10)
• Wolff remarks that appreciating immigration is ironically in capitalism's own interest, but the super-rich only care about their own class’s survival.

8. Sources and Constituencies for Change (13:16–15:49)

• Wolff asks where to expect meaningful anti-capitalist change: old capitalist centers or the new peripheries?
• Harvey’s insight: Change is bubbling globally in “heterotopic spaces”—grassroots sites of alternative organizing (recovered factories, solidarity economies).
  • Harvey: “The big problem is, can it be all put together? Can people establish links with each other between what they're doing?” (13:52)
• He cites moments of global mobilization (e.g., anti-war protests, Occupy, indignado movements), and outlines the task: build a coherent, programmatic, global movement toward anti-capitalist power.

Notable Quotes

• Harvey:

  • "If you happen to be in the top 1%. If you're anybody else, it's a bunch of lies." (00:48)
  • "For the rest of us, people are struggling." (01:22)
  • "They were very surprised that there's a real escalation in suicide rates and opioid addictions..." (03:44)
  • "We have to come up with something that's meaningful. And if we can do that...this world would be a very different place..." (06:54)
  • “The real problem here is capitalism. It's not your fault, it's not the fault of immigrants and it's not the fault of foreign trade tariffs.” (07:56)
  • "The ultra rich are interested in their own class doing well, and the capitalist class can do extremely well, while capitalism in general is doing very badly." (12:55)
  • “There’s a lot going on and there’s a lot of possibility... The big problem is...creating an anti capitalist movement that is a global anti capitalist movement.” (15:34)

• Wolff:

  • "It's almost like a cruelty to go to the mass of people and tell them endlessly that they're in a recovery..." (02:46)
  • "Capitalism ought to celebrate the immigrant...immigration is central to whatever growth capitalism has ever achieved." (12:30)

Segment Timestamps

• 00:01–02:46: The ‘recovery’ narrative—who it serves
• 02:46–04:02: Blame, psychological harm, and social crisis
• 04:02–05:46: Marxism’s future—clarity, relevance, and challenge to growth
• 05:46–07:16: Global alienation and the right’s rise
• 07:16–08:37: Openings for the left, confronting scapegoating
• 08:37–11:06: Shifting centers of capitalism—class lens
• 11:06–13:16: Immigrants, scapegoating, and class power
• 13:16–15:49: Sources and prospects for anti-capitalist change

Conclusion

Through incisive analysis and broad historical perspective, Harvey and Wolff dissect the lingering fallout of the 2008 crisis, the misleading narrative of recovery, and the persistent inequalities and alienation generated by capitalism. They explore how the left might regain ground—not merely with policy but by providing real meaning and collective action. The episode closes with a call for global solidarity, strategic unity, and an anti-capitalist movement suited to the realities of the 21st century.