Economic Update Extra: Interview with Matthias Scheiblehner

Podcast: Economic Update with Richard D. Wolff
Host: Richard D. Wolff
Guest: Matthias Scheiblehner (Metis Construction Worker Co-op)
Date: December 5, 2018

Main Theme

This episode is a Patreon-exclusive continuation of Richard D. Wolff’s interview with Matthias Scheiblehner, founder of Metis Construction, a worker cooperative in Seattle. The conversation focuses on the practical challenges and deeper social goals of running a worker-owned business in the US, specifically touching on capitalization, wage structures, profit sharing, and the broader movement for workplace democracy.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Access to Capital for Worker Co-ops

• Challenge of Financing

  • Matthias explains that accessing capital is a universal business challenge, but it’s even tougher for worker co-ops because traditional lenders are not geared toward non-traditional ownership structures.
    • "Capitalization I think is a problem for any business, big or small. And I think it's for worker co-ops even more of a problem because...business lending especially is geared towards traditionally structured companies." (Matthias, 01:03)

• Emergence of CDFIs

  • Community Development Financial Institutions (CDFIs) are filling this gap. Matthias cites working with LEAF (Local Enterprise Assistance Fund) and Beneficial State Bank, organizations created to promote economic alternatives.
    • "When you approach LEAF or the Beneficial State Bank, they are so happy to hear you’re a worker co-op because that's who they want to work with." (Matthias, 02:12)

• Bottom Line:

  • Financing is available for co-ops, countering skeptical narratives.
    • "Glib dismissals of it as though it was impossible to get the money that any business needs. Those are not true...you were able to do that." (Wolff, 01:55)

2. Wages and Profit Sharing

• Wage Structure

  • Wages at Metis Construction are competitive and based on skill, productivity, and experience, not egalitarian principles.
    • "Peoples compensation is based on their skill level, it's based on how productive they are, and it's based on experience." (Matthias, 02:55)
    • "So it's not an egalitarian wage system." (Wolff, 03:20)
    • "People are not there out of the goodness of their heart...they’re there because it makes good sense for them." (Matthias, 03:24)

• Profit Sharing

  • At year end, profits are distributed evenly based on hours worked, regardless of job title.
    • "An hour worked at Metis, whether it's worked by a laborer or by a project manager, is compensated at the same level...profits are divided up based on that." (Matthias, 03:24)
    • "So it's an egalitarian distribution of profits, but not an egalitarian payment of wages for work." (Wolff, 03:55)
    • "It's real democratic, egalitarian profit sharing." (Wolff, 04:04)

3. Social and Philosophical Commitments

• Reducing Inequality

  • Matthias underscores the importance of collective ownership in addressing wealth inequality, referencing the corrosive societal effects of the wealth gap.
    • "If you’re at all of the opinion that the disparity in wealth...is an issue for concern...distributing profit among a broader group of people is a good thing." (Matthias, 05:04)
    • "Any conversion from individual ownership to worker ownership is a step towards more equitable distribution of wealth in society." (Matthias, 05:04)

• Co-ops as Social Models

  • Worker co-ops are viewed as vehicles for social change and greater democracy.
    • "Worker co-ops are a small step in addressing what is a tremendous problem that we currently confront." (Matthias, 05:04)
    • "How they can help change the whole society in a democratic direction, in a direction of treating people with respect and equality that we give lip service to, but mostly...do not honor." (Wolff, 04:38)

4. Comparisons and Broader Context

• Mondragon Model

  • Wolff reflects on his visit to Spain’s Mondragon co-ops, highlighting their salary cap (no more than 8.5:1, highest to lowest pay, versus 300:1 in US corporations).
    • "Here was that a direct attack on inequality...the ratio for a corporate executive to an average worker in the United States is 300 to one, not eight and a half to one." (Wolff, 06:06)
    • At Metis, the ratio is even narrower: about 3:1.
      • "At Metis we're at right, about three to one from the highest paid." (Matthias, 06:43)

• Local Co-op Movement

  • There’s a growing wave of new worker co-ops (Bellingham Bay Builders, A1 Builders, Northwest Construction Co-op, Black Cat Construction Co-op) in the Seattle area, most established in the last 10 years.
    • "There does seem to be a growing wave...in that area alone...Bellingham Bay Builders, A1 Builders...all fairly recent, all I'd say in the last 10 years or so." (Matthias, 07:13)

• Metis as a Model

  • Metis itself drew inspiration from the South Mountain Co-op and now serves as informal mentor and consultant for other emerging co-ops.
    • "We ourselves are modeling the South Mountain Co-op...has really helped us." (Matthias, 07:37)

5. Advice, Accessibility, and Openness

• Matthias is open to direct contact from listeners with questions about starting or managing worker co-ops.
  • "Email works great. matthias at matisconstructioninc.com or just going to our website ... I’m always happy to take the time to sit down with folks and talk through how we’ve done what we’ve done." (Matthias, 08:20)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On fighting finance stereotypes:

  • "When you approach LEAF or the Beneficial State Bank, they are so happy to hear you're a worker co-op because that's who they want to work with. And that's a very exciting development." (Matthias, 02:12)

• On wage vs. profit sharing:

  • "The wage system is not egalitarian... But when we turn to profit sharing, an hour worked at Metis, whether it's worked by a laborer or by a project manager, is compensated at the same level." (Matthias, 03:24)

• On the deeper aim of co-ops:

  • "Any conversion from individual ownership to worker ownership is a step towards more equitable distribution of wealth in society." (Matthias, 05:04)

• On global precedent:

  • "The highest paid worker can't get more than eight and a half times what the lowest paid worker does. ... The ratio for a corporate executive to an average worker in the United States is 300 to one, not eight and a half to one." (Wolff, 06:06)

• On movement building and mentorship:

  • "Just offering advice, this is how we've done it. Just so that we all learn from each other's example." (Matthias, 07:37)

Important Timestamps

• 00:00: Start; introduction; financing challenges
• 01:03: Accessing capital and CDFIs
• 02:12: Positive reception from CDFIs when approaching as a co-op
• 02:22: Wages and equity—wage differentiation explained
• 03:24: Egalitarian profit sharing structure
• 05:04: Philosophy—role of co-ops in fighting inequality
• 06:06: Mondragon salary cap; US executive pay disparity
• 06:43: Metis’s own 3:1 wage ratio
• 07:13: Seattle co-op movement and emergence of peer co-ops
• 08:20: Matthias shares contact information for advising others

Tone & Language

Conversations are candid, practical, and values-driven. Wolff’s questions invite clarification and highlight broader social implications, while Matthias responds with concrete examples and a pragmatic, yet hopeful vision for worker co-ops as both economically viable and socially transformative.

Conclusion

This episode dives into the real-world logistics, struggles, and accomplishments of founding and running a worker cooperative, showing the model's potential to address systemic economic inequality. With concrete examples, direct experience, and a commitment to spreading the co-op model, Matthias and Wolff make a compelling case for the democracy, dignity, and replicability of worker-owned businesses.