Economic Update: Human Nature and Capitalism

Podcast: Economic Update with Richard D. Wolff
Date: June 8, 2017
Host: Richard D. Wolff
Guest: Dr. Harriet Fraad

Episode Overview

This episode of Economic Update explores the intersection of “human nature” and capitalism. Host Richard D. Wolff breaks down prevailing economic issues—including healthcare, housing, privatization, sugar market manipulation, and state debt—before engaging in a deep interview with mental health counselor Dr. Harriet Fraad. Their discussion dissects the oft-cited claim that capitalism is simply an expression of “human nature,” and challenges whether greed, competition, and avarice are immutable human traits or socialized behaviors.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Healthcare Reform at the State Level (02:00–07:30)

• Wolff critiques the failures of national healthcare policy:
  • Democrats expanded coverage but failed to control costs; Republicans threaten to remove millions from coverage.
  • Two states (California and Nevada) are moving toward broader public options:
    • California: Senate Bill 562 aims for state-wide Medicare for all.
    • Nevada: Proposes wider Medicaid access for more people.
• Quote:
  • “Bravo to California, Bravo to Nevada for going against the federal disaster that is imposed on us by Republicans and Democrats alike.” (06:38 – Wolff)

2. Housing Bubble in Canada (07:32–09:56)

• Canada's major cities, especially Toronto, suffering from rapidly escalating housing prices and instability, reminiscent of previous U.S. housing crises.
• Wolff Questions: Should housing be left to the private market?
• Quote:
  • “It ought to, in a reasonable, rational person, raise the question whether something as important as housing is to be left to private capitalist market activity, given what we know has happened in most large cities…” (09:18 – Wolff)

3. The “Economic Religion” of Privatization (09:56–19:53)

• Wolff tackles the dogma that privatization is always preferable to public provision.
• Examples:
  • Trump proposes privatizing air traffic control; infrastructure “public-private partnerships.”
  • False “common sense” that private enterprise is inherently more efficient.
  • Cites military, schools, police, public transportation as public sector successes.
• Quote:
  • “There is no consistent evidence whatsoever to privilege the private over the public… It really isn’t common sense. It’s nonsense. That’s what it is.” (14:30 – Wolff)
• Explains both capitalist and socialist societies end up blending public and private enterprise.

4. Myth of the Free Market—The Case of Sugar (19:55–29:10)

• U.S. sugar industry is protected, not a free market: government quotas keep prices high.
• Impact: Higher consumers prices, benefits to big sugar companies (e.g., Florida Crystals, Fanjul brothers).
• Such policies hurt American jobs as food producers relocate manufacturing to countries with cheaper sugar.
• Quote:
  • “Americans have, in short, been ripped off by the sugar companies because… government interfered in the sugar business to protect the sugar companies…” (23:54 – Wolff)

5. Illinois State Debt Crisis—Symptom of a Broader Economic Rot (29:12–28:41)

• Describes Illinois’ credit rating collapse due to political gridlock, fear of taxing the wealthy and corporations, and chronic borrowing.
• Connects this to national issues, indicating “an economy that’s spinning out of control.”
• Quote:
  • “We live in a society that is falling apart economically. We deny it, which is understandable… But meanwhile, the rot continues.” (27:22 – Wolff)

In-Depth: Human Nature and Capitalism

Interview with Dr. Harriet Fraad
(30:09–56:38)

Setting Up the Debate (30:09–34:36)

• Question: Is capitalism inevitable because it reflects human nature (greed, competition)?
• Wolff summarizes the mainstream defense:
  • Criticism of capitalism is futile because it’s “just human nature.”
• Purpose: Dr. Fraad, with her background in psychology and child development, is invited to address this assertion.

Challenging “Human Nature” as Capitalism’s Justification (34:36–41:03)

• Fraad rejects a fixed human nature:
  • Cites cases of “wild children” raised by wolves—adopting wolf behaviors—showing malleability.
  • Early childhood education teaches sharing and cooperation, not greed, and socialism-like values.
  • Contradiction: Society socializes children to be communal, yet rewards capitalist competition and individual gain.
• Memorable Story:
  • A mother scolds her child for sharing an expensive toy, teaching the child cost calculation over sharing. (37:43)

The Role of Environment and Socialization (41:03–44:11)

• Human behavior changes with context:
  • Soviet orphan colonies; children became collectively responsible and cooperative.
  • “People can be whatever they need to be. If they’re left out and wolves discover them and they survive, they become wolves.” (41:00 – Fraad)
• Humans have always survived through cooperation, not competition—a legacy of “primitive communism.”

Contradictions Within Human Nature (44:11–47:57)

• Wolff synthesizes:
  • Human nature is not static, is malleable, and contains contradictions.
• Fraad: Past societies also rationalized oppression (“slavery is natural”), then moved beyond them.
• “Every form of oppression has been made eternal and natural… That couldn’t change until people changed it.” (45:06 – Fraad)
• The “natural” rhetoric is a tool to keep people from questioning or changing unjust systems.

Social Class, Education, and Self-Concept (47:57–52:16)

• Socialization depends heavily on class and environment:
  • Wealthy children are raised to lead and question; poor children are raised to obey.
• Study Example:
  • When teachers are told certain students are more gifted, those children’s performance jumps, reinforcing the malleability of self-concept.

Summing Up: Capitalist Behaviors Are Socially Produced (52:16–56:38)

• Greed, competitiveness, and avarice in capitalist societies are products of the system, not nature.
• Even in capitalist societies people share, respect, and cooperate (public transport, sidewalks, families).
• Ongoing societal contradictions shape “human nature” towards both competition and cooperation.
• Final insight:
  • It’s possible and reasonable to seek societal change—human behavior will adapt in tandem.
• Quote:
  • “It also implies that it does make sense to want to change a society, because if you change it… you can reasonably expect that human beings will respond, will also change, and that you’re not running up against some immovable, natural final barrier that prevents that.” (54:40 – Wolff)

Memorable Quotes & Timestamps

• “There is no consistent evidence whatsoever to privilege the private over the public… It really isn’t common sense. It’s nonsense. That’s what it is.”
  — Richard D. Wolff (14:30)

• “Every form of oppression has been made eternal and natural… That couldn’t change until people changed it.”
  — Dr. Harriet Fraad (45:06)

• “People can be wolves if they grow up among wolves… Human nature changes over time, changes with the environment.”
  — Dr. Harriet Fraad (41:00)

• “It also implies that it does make sense to want to change a society, because if you change it… you can reasonably expect that human beings will respond, will also change, and that you’re not running up against some immovable, natural final barrier…”
  — Richard D. Wolff (54:40)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Healthcare policy failures and state innovation: 02:00–07:30
• Canadian housing bubble and critique of housing markets: 07:32–09:56
• Privatization dogma and the myth of private sector superiority: 09:56–19:53
• Sugar market manipulation as anti-free market reality: 19:55–29:10
• Illinois debt crisis as a microcosm of broader economic dysfunction: 29:12–28:41
• Core interview on human nature and capitalism: 30:09–56:38
• Memorable story on childhood socialization (sharing/sharing contradiction): 37:43
• Refutation of “human nature” as a barrier to social change: 45:06, 54:40

Takeaways

• The argument that capitalism is the only economic system suited to “human nature” is historically, psychologically, and anthropologically flawed.
• Human behavior is adaptive, shaped by social, economic, and environmental factors.
• Cooperative, communal behavior predates and coexists with competitive, individualistic drives; both are products of socialization, not destiny.
• Systemic change is possible and necessary, as human beings adapt to new structures and norms.

For further exploration, listeners are encouraged to visit the podcast’s companion blogs and resources at democracyatwork.info and rdwolff.com.